More Reasons Why The Royal Line of Sinless Saviors Just Doesn’t Add Up

Clint Roberts writes,

If only a few rare beings in the infinite family tree are part of this unique royal succession who lived sinlessly on earth in order to be redeemers, then it still remains that sinners become gods just as great & powerful as ours (in fact it’s the norm). So big deal if WE just so happen to be offspring in that rare line of succession in which one son (always the eldest, I guess?) in every ‘litter’ carries the sinless-while-on-earth gene. Right?

Brian Mackert writes,

It moves the problem to a different God. You and I who ARE SINNERS are, according to Mormonism, supposed to be able to become Gods just like God the Father did, but God the Father wasn’t a sinner? See the contradiction? God the Father wasn’t a sinner, didn’t need a Savior, didn’t need atonement for sin, didn’t need to be redeemed, never fell into sin, it is impossible for us to become a God like He did!!!
The whole of Mormon Theology begins to unravel. If God was a sinless Savior like Jesus, then how was He tested by the flesh so that He could earn His own godhood and be exalted? Was he special somehow? And if we are to become gods just like he did then why aren’t we all sinless Saviors too?
What about the Holy Ghost? How did He become a God without a physical body and being tried by it? What’s up with that? Is He special too?
What about Jesus? How come it’s possible for him to become a God without ever having fallen into sin like us and needing to be redeemed?
It seems to me that if being a sinner or being sinless is optional then there is no need for this probationary period and the trials of the flesh. Why should we have to endure the trials of the flesh in order to become a God if this is optional. It seems to me that if we were to become Gods as they became Gods, then we wouldn’t have had the fall in the Garden of Eden. We would have all remained sinless and become sinless Gods as God the Father did and as Jesus did.

It moves the problem to a different God. You and I who ARE SINNERS are, according to Mormonism, supposed to be able to become Gods just like God the Father did, but God the Father wasn’t a sinner? See the contradiction? God the Father wasn’t a sinner, didn’t need a Savior, didn’t need atonement for sin, didn’t need to be redeemed, never fell into sin, it is impossible for us to become a God like He did!!!

The whole of Mormon Theology begins to unravel. If God was a sinless Savior like Jesus, then how was He tested by the flesh so that He could earn His own godhood and be exalted? Was he special somehow? And if we are to become gods just like he did then why aren’t we all sinless Saviors too?

What about the Holy Ghost? How did He become a God without a physical body and being tried by it? What’s up with that? Is He special too?

What about Jesus? How come it’s possible for him to become a God without ever having fallen into sin like us and needing to be redeemed?

It seems to me that if being a sinner or being sinless is optional then there is no need for this probationary period and the trials of the flesh. Why should we have to endure the trials of the flesh in order to become a God if this is optional. It seems to me that if we were to become Gods as they became Gods, then we wouldn’t have had the fall in the Garden of Eden. We would have all remained sinless and become sinless Gods as God the Father did and as Jesus did.

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182 Responses to More Reasons Why The Royal Line of Sinless Saviors Just Doesn’t Add Up

  1. jackg says:

    HankSaint,

    I have been reading your comments for some time, now, and it is clear to see that you have a very condescending nature, which I attribute to the arrogance bred by Mormonism. It’s prevalent among LDS. I know, as I once shared in that same arrogance of self-induced authority. When you tell Aaron, in your condescending way, “So puzzle away, continue to be confused, deny your preexistence, and take the little bit of light and knowledge you have and be satisfied for the eternity you so choose. God will not embarrass you even when you pass through the veil of death, you will be happy to have your mansions amongst those who think along the same lines you do,” I can’t help but think that your doctrine is built on the teachings of a self-proclaimed prophet that is easily proven to be a false prophet–and not on the biblical text. The eisegesis required to believe the teachings of JS is an acrobatic exercise of the “me” syndrome of which you wrongly accuse Aaron. Mormonism is all about “me.” Mormonism is rooted in a low view of God, which then lessens the importance and impact of His grace. When one takes a low view of God, then His grace is not so amazing, but becomes–as in the case with Mormonism–a mere appendage to our works. That’s a “me” syndrome, HS. This thinking leads us to such thoughts as, “I’m not a sinner…I don’t need as much grace as the guy next to me…I can make myself worthy by going to the temple, doing my hometeaching…” etc. Tell me, HS, how amazing is God’s grace to you? Tell me, HS, are you a sinner? Tell me, HS, are you more worthy than all of us Christians because you have a temple recommend? Self-examination is a difficult road, but it’s a road we all must travel. Take the first step, HS. You’ll find it frightening, but in the end it will lead you to the Truth of God’s revealed Word–and when that happens you will come to have a high view of God and see the truth of OUR human condition.

    Peace…

  2. setfree says:

    Ralph,
    “ONLY Heavenly Father is our God and He is the only one we will worship and glorify for eternity, no one else – thus only one God.”

    I guess I am the third one here to comment on this Ralph.

    You, my friend, are breaking the first commandment.

    After all, who is it that says “thou shalt not have any gods before me” ? Jehovah? Isn’t He Jesus in LDS ism?

  3. setfree says:

    Sub,
    “Matthew 5:48 – is this commandment a futile one? do you claim that God would give us a commandment that we were not able to achieve?…..so, to become perfect as Our Father is perfect means what? wings and harps?”

    we are perfected by having God’s righteousness imputed to us.
    Imputed was a new word for me, so let me explain a little better. It means “to lay to one’s account or charge”
    So here we are, a list of sins on our personal account with God.
    Then those of us who believe God that Jesus is our Salvation, get God’s righteousness imputed to our account.
    Now when He looks at our account, He sees no sin. He sees Jesus and His perfection, as our substitute.
    We are then perfect, just like Jesus/God.
    We are positionally perfect — perfect because we are “in Christ”
    No one ever EVER got perfect by working at it. only by believing God.

    (Romans 4:1-5)

  4. falcon says:

    Isn’t continuous revelation a marvelous thing? Just think about it. It has the potential of canceling all previous revelations and Mormons are so naive that they throw a party thinking they’re among the “in crowd”. So it is with the discussion here regarding the Mormon god. What our Mormon friends are blind to, of course, is that God has already revealed Himself in His Holy Word the Bible.
    Not good enough for the Mormons however because an understanding of what the Bible teaches regarding the nature of God precludes them from being gods. Bummer! So they spin and hem and haw and “reveal” what ever comes to their minds that will fit in with their personal me too god-program. And what do Mormons have to compare any of their proclamations to. Well nothing of course, which makes it all very exciting and correct. Never mind if it’s wrong, it’s fun and provides entertainment for the men and besides who’s keeping track? It can all change tomorrow anyway because “there’s so much we don’t know.” When applied to Mormons that’s the operational descriptor.

  5. subgenius says:

    nice assumptive answer for Ralph, par for the course,, unfortunately continuous revelation can also be a good thing and thoug it may cancel it can also affirm. A little arrogance creeps out on the analogy with Paul, but i am often reminded that this is the calling card of the modern day Evangelical cyber-missionary. Now, this is an analogy:

    The modern day Evangelical cyber-missionary is to Paul as Count Chocula is to Dracula

    …or is that a simile?
    Yes, God has revealed himself in the Ot and NT and the BoM, but there is more evidence for him to continue rather than stop.
    The evangelical attitude is apparently that enough is enough when it comes to revelation and the increase of knowledge about God. I only wish the depth of your knowledge about the BoM and Mormon history was a portion of what the evangelical mob touts it to be; but alas the mob evangelical proves the notion that disgust sells over truth,

    just ask Goering who said:

    “…All you have to do is tell them (evangelicals) they are being attacked,
    and denounce the peacemakers (Mormons) for lack of patriotism (religion) and exposing the
    country (church) to danger. It works the same in any country(religion).” parentheticals by me.

  6. Enki says:

    Aaron,
    ““Isn’t that actually a restatement of the plan which was rejected?”

    Not unless you say Jesus himself chose the plan that Satan proposed.”

    “And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan… is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1-3.)

    An earth plan without sin would logically result in every person being saved. There is always the possibility that people could inherit a sinful nature, but have it removed prior to birth, kind of like the ’emaculate conception’ of mary. But there again, that would be a variation of ‘satans plan’ to have all people saved.

    The actual origin of this ‘scripture’ probably has to do with the rise of socialism. Mormons very characterisitically like to make a parallel between this and socialism. The most interesting thing about that is that Karl Marx was born to a Jewish Lutheran family. I have read a summary of parallels between christianity and socialism, its quite striking.
    http://www.adherents.com/people/pm/Karl_Marx.html

    The LDS scripture fully accepts that there was a fall, but places it in a different context. I don’t quite understand what the speculation is for alternatives to the fall. Its kind of like wishing that pandora didn’t open the *&*#[email protected] box!

    Various stories about the origin of sin and evil are completely in the realm of religion and philosophy. Its untestable, along with questions about ‘free will’ and ‘free agency’.

  7. Enki says:

    subgenius,
    Some have suggested that the mark of cain was actually a tattoo on his face, probably the forehead. These same people suggested that the ‘mark of the beast’ is a tattoo on the forehead and or the hand, perhaps with or without an electronic tag. Like a UPC strip.

  8. subgenius says:

    setfree,
    you say
    “Now when He looks at our account, He sees no sin. He sees Jesus and His perfection, as our substitute”
    do you really believe that the “bait and switch” routine works on Our Heavenly Father. If ever wool was pulled over the eyes, i dont think it was over God’s.
    Bottom line, the typical evangelical response of a scripture not meaning what it says has arisen quicker than Lazarus.
    So to “appear” to be perfect before God does not mean you are perfect, God just “thinks” you are….and if he thinks you are perfect, that does not amke you “like” Him, because there are laws outside of his realm that govern. Boy, is he going to be mad when he finds the second set of books with the true “account”.
    geez, and Mormons are the ones being called kooks? Avast ye pot this kettle is not impressed.

  9. liv4jc says:

    Sub, it’s known as “substitutionary atonement” not “bait and switch”.

    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26)

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:17-21)

    Looking forward to seeing you twist the clear meaning of those passages as they fit into the clear teaching of the entire NT.

  10. falcon says:

    Here’s the beauty of continuous revelation, there’s no way to verify it. It’s why Joseph Smith was able to pull the wool over people’s eyes the same way he did when he was hiring out to find buried treasure. When they didn’t find the treasure, which was every time, there was always an excuse. Someone spoke out of turn or they drew the circle too big or small… take your pick. So Joe was never wrong.
    Here we are with the Mormon god who our Mormon friends can speculate about all day long about since there’s nothing to compare it to. Oh Wait! There is something to compare the Mormon god to. It’s the God who reveals Himself through both His written Word the Bible and the Living Word Jesus Christ. I think I’ll go with that.
    Now what does Mormonism have. Two bogus books, BoM and the BoA, that have been totally discredited and a prophet with a magic rock and a serious sex addiction problem. This all adds up to a major all time religious scam. Seriously, people put there time, money, efforts and emotions into this…..and that’s not the worst of it…the worst is their rejection of the living God for a sinful man that they think became a god. Unreal!

  11. liv4jc says:

    Sub, are you saying that your account is clear? You are so self assured that your works will justify you before God. I started to blast you for your arrogance, but then I realized that I know where you are in your love of self, because every person who knows Christ was once as you are, believing that God will wink at your sin and give you a pass for your efforts. I’m sure the Apostle Paul was much like you as he set out for Damascus breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord.

    It was God’s sovereign mercy and grace that converted Paul, and once that happened Paul never once boasted in his own goodness. The scriptures are clear, but God has not opened your eyes to see it.

    Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Phillipians 3:1-9)

  12. Olsen Jim says:

    Grindael,

    Not sure how many of your post(s) were addressing my point(s). As I have said before, it is easier to go around with matches lighting fires than having to be the one who puts out all of those fires. Similarly, it is so much easier to machine-gun out criticisms against the church (or anything else) than it is to defend it. This is a common tactic used by critics when confronted. And from your posts, it appears you have adopted this approach too.

    My main point was that critics like those who post here will not “get” Mormonism because they don’t have the faith to try the simple, fundamental steps that require humility and sincerity (most have never read the BOM, yet scour through church history looking for any controversial or objectionable statement).

    The evidence for this is their fascination with and insistence on flushing out every possible negative implication of the “deepest” doctrines about which we know little or nothing.

    It is evidenced by their absolute boredom with General Conference talks and their complaint about there being no new grand prophecies or revelations.

    It is evidenced by their insistence on having absolute proof of the Book of Mormon before they will consider it (I argue that no amount of proof would change their minds).

    It is evidenced by their investing more time in studying Mormonism than their own religion- it seems to me they are bored with their own faith.

    It is evidenced by their refusal to follow lines of evidence any further than their source critics have taken them.

    EV critics seem so impatient in their tone- they are not content to leave the judgment to God. Their need to have the last cute word shows an inability to leave it all to God.

    Although the object of the critics’ jeers, the simple faithful mormon who may not know every deep doctrine actually knows infinitely more about the Gospel than the taunting critic who refuses to receive the “milk and honey, without money and without price.”

  13. subgenius says:

    liv4jc
    no twist necessary, its pretty straightforward, as were my comments, i was taking exception with setfree’s interpretation. Yes, JC was simply sent to free us from the sins of the Flesh prior, but this does not “blind” God to our doings (past present of future), it is an offer from Him, and we have already debated how one “accepts” and “endures” that offer.

    ….so to be perfect like God means what? 2 Cor 5:17-21, its context and references mean that to be perfect like God, is to walk in the Spirit not to walk in the sin of the Flesh, right?
    which leads us to Romans 8:14-17 which is, again, a clear statement of what we are “capable” of becoming. Again, simple.

  14. Mike R says:

    Falcon,

    Brigham Young was’nt to happy with some of
    Pratt’s beliefs, the quote cited being one
    of them.It’s sad that Orson was taught by
    Brigham concerning all the vast multitudes
    of gods/goddesses and then slid even further
    into heresy with this particular belief,
    which was cited.Brigham accused Pratt of
    false doctrine.The pot calling the kettle
    black etc.

    Subgenius,

    You asked me not to confuse “exaltation” with
    “Almighty”.Not sure what exactly you meant by
    that.Are you saying that worthy LDS males will
    be exalted, but this does’nt mean they’ll
    become Almighty Gods? What about you? Will
    you attain to the status of an Almighty God
    one day?
    You also said that Jesus is a God (capital G )
    yet man is a god ( small g ). Is there a
    difference to you? For what it’s worth,LDS
    authorities have taught about men becoming
    God’s (capital G ).

    Concerning the LDS racist doctrine on Blacks,
    the evidence seems to point to Brigham Young
    borrowing this from some racist protestants
    around the late 1840’s and then turned around
    and proclaimed it as God’s truth for decades.
    Also, the Southern Baptists have offically
    apologized for their part in this racism.
    Has the LDS leadership done likewise?

  15. Ralph says:

    MikeR,

    Thanks for the quote and reference. I now can look into it more. But the first thing I guess is that he was not the Prophet and if BY did not agree with it and censured it as you said then it was most likely not doctrine and just his opinion. So Falcon cannot use it the way he is trying to.

    Larry,

    The Bible states clearly that the devil is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). (Is that an honest enough answer for you Falcon?) Does he then factor into your Trinity? Which one is he?

    We believe Heavenly Father is The God to whom we owe all our existence to and it is to Him and Him only we worship and glorify. Jesus is our Saviour and Redeemer and although He has the power of God and God’s authority, He (Jesus) wants us to give all worship and glory to The Father because this is all The Father’s work and domain. So Jesus is a God because He has the power and authority, but He is not our ‘ultimate’ God that is Heavenly Father. Jesus is just performing His part in Heavenly Father’s plan/work.

    I have made this statement before, to us LDS, ‘God’ is more a title indicating someone who is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect, etc – not being as you Evs take it to mean. To us it is more Heavenly Father that is a being, not a title a you Evs see it to be. This does make for confusion when discussing things.

  16. setfree says:

    Ralph,
    You didn’t answer my question. If HF is your only God, why is Jehovah/Jesus down here saying “no gods but me”? Aren’t you included in His ten commandments?

  17. LARRY CLARK says:

    Very astute Ralph – I’ve actually asked Missionaries that very question and they did say the God of this world. Please look at one more scripture, Isaiah 5:20, in part “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil” — Since you and your Church cheerfully believe taking Satan’s word over God’s word in Gen 3:1-5, and call it a good thing. That was the start of denying God’s word and taking the word of any of your prophet’s – it becomes easy to say anything you want that goes against God’s revealed word in the Bible, and not even think there is anything wrong with it.

  18. LARRY CLARK says:

    I’ve read the comments about the mark of Cain. My family dates back to the push carts time, populating Utah. My Grandmother always said the mark of Cain was being black, my mother said the same thing, my temple Mormon brothers and sisters say the same thing (I did my 29 years in Church). So I know that at least in Southern Idaho and Montana, there are current Mormons who believe that about the mark of Cain – just for whatever it’s worth.

  19. falcon says:

    Ralph,
    Why can’t I use Orson Pratt’s quote? We’ve got a ton of quotes that are really off the wall by BY and Mormons run away from them and he was the prophet. So who’s BY to dictate to Orson Pratt? Sounds like a couple of crazy, off-the-wall guys in the fine tradition of Mormon prophets. So my use of the quote stands and I will continue to use it. If you guys are going to pick and choose which quotes by your prophets count and which don’t, then I can do the same. Orson Pratt’s quote stands. He said it and unless you can prove he didn’t say it, it counts. Hay, I’m thinking and reasoning like a Mormon. This is fun!

  20. Thank you, Aaron.
    Phil. 1:6 🙂

  21. Mike R says:

    Ralph,

    Could you directly answer the question that
    one of your students could ask of you,namely,
    “Do you Ralph believe that one day in the
    future,if you prove worthy,that you’ll
    become an Almighty God?

  22. My pleasure, BiV 🙂

  23. grindael says:

    Sub-
    Did any of those people you mentioned claim to be the spokesman for Jesus Christ? Literally, as Smith & Co. did? That is the difference in ALL these discussions, something you are clumsily evading or just don’t see. I don’t fail to understand anything except that those men (Smith, et.all) had no more truck with Jesus than Manson did.
    I can picture Smith and Young and their apostles burning in hell with ‘Helter Skelter” playing in the backround, chanting “rise, rise”. THAT is the level those remarks put them on. And you are DEAD WRONG that all civilizations condoned slavery. What the heck do you think the Civil War was all about?
    I’m a white man, married to a stellar black woman who was called inferior, and sub-human by ilk like them. I was in L.A. in 1968-69 when the race riots took place. I saw black kids almost clubbed to death by police in my junior high school. I condemn ANY racism, and condemn it more in those who supposedly had more light and knowledge than anyone in the history of the world, according to Smith. That you blah blah it, abhors me.
    Try stepping back for a minute and realize what you are truly saying. You are backed into a corner, and in panic and fear are trying to reverse the SINS of Smith and company and put them on everyone else. Others did worse than Smith, and the teachings of Jesus condemn it. But this SIN went on in YOUR Church until the 1970’s, perpetrated by so-called apostles and prophets until they were forced to change it.
    I guess you are also of the opinion that God should be God only when he is acting as such, same as Smith.
    Smith’s God certainly doesn’t compare to the one who came to earth, wrapped his broken body around a cross, and died for all the inhumanity you seem to turn a blind eye to. Jesus even died for the black people, imagine that!
    I’ll be keeping the flames turned up – in the hopes that I might get ONE MORMON to see how much they have been deceived, by those in authority in YOUR CHURCH, and those like you.

  24. grindael says:

    For J. Olsen,
    I am heartened by your reply, but there are many things about me that you could never know. I served a mission from 78-80, and was in the Church for 13 years. I had an abusive father, who was always commenting about the ‘niggers’ who were out to take his job, etc. His cruelty destroyed me in many ways.

    In 1971 I was placed in a foster home, and my foster-parents, who were mormons, enchanted me with stories of the restored gospel as revealed through JS. I had the missionaries over, and joined the church. I was active, memorized much of the BOM, and any other scriptures we were given in Seminary. I was not happy to get up early before school to go, but the rewards were great: I accumulated knowledge and there was this one older girl who had a Datsun pickup who taught me how to drive…

    About a year later my father tried to get me back, but a judge granted my request to stay in the home and I changed my last name to that of my foster parents… who eventually adopted me…
    He never forgave me for that…and cursed me on his dying bed in 1990… have you ever tried to live with such a curse???

    In 1978 I went on a mission for the church, and when I returned went to BYU… it was there that I gained access to the archives of the church through some of the professors I was close to…

    This was my downfall in the church, and there was no one who was more surprised as I was at my request to be excommunicated from the church…and I changed my name back…

    In the intervening years, I married a beautiful black woman, and the trials and tribulations of that (even in the 1980’s-90’s) I don’t think I could ever set down in words.. it is very painful what I went through with family and friends…

    I don’t search the internet for tidbits to post, my knowledge has come from an intimate relationship with Smith’s Church.

  25. grindael says:

    cont.
    I have been involved in the Salvation Army and other Christian groups for years… I RECENTLY came back to my mormon roots… these websites.. for what… I don’t know except that I feel compelled…

    I have done some videos that you can find on you tube, just punch in “you tube grindael”… but you may not like some of them…I pull no punches…

    After I left the church for awhile I was very self destructive… have you ever cut yourself to feel more alive? I have. I can’t wear short sleeves in public anymore…Have you ever tried to die by cop? I have: four cops with drawn guns ready to shoot you down, and having no weapon… it took Jesus to pull me out of that phase of my life.

    If I could wish something on you Jim, it would be happiness, and that you would open your eyes to what God has in store for you.

    Regardless, I respect you, (how could I not?) and wish you peace and happiness. I am not just another mormon hater, I have been involved intimately with the Latter-day-Saints, more, more, more than you could ever know. Do not ever assume, which by your comments I feel you don’t, but some do. Peace, love and yes I am passionate about JS because He betrayed me, and a lot of others. I will not back down, but I am amenable to polite conversation. I hope someday, someway, that you will see She truth.

    How do you respond the Articles of Faith Post? In 1835 JS PUBLISHED there were 2 in the Godhead, the Holy Ghost being the mind of God… How could he change this if he SAW God and Jesus in 1820… makes no sense…and then in 1832 recorded that he only saw Jesus in the first vision,… come on, if it were you or me, we would have remembered what happened and proclaimed it from the rooftops….

    Regardless of the issues, there is one thing that sets the LDS Church apart: they say they are the restored gospel of Jesus. Hence they have a higher standard to live up to. Nothing in the life of the prophets has convinced me that they are what they say they are.

    Sincerely,

    grindael

  26. grindael says:

    falcon,
    I don’t know you cept through your posts…but I love ya,… feel the love???

  27. HankSaint says:

    Falcon astutely stated, “praise God that two-thirds of Mormons on the rolls are inactive, that resignations have gone through the roof and that returning missionaries are jumping ship in record numbers. Those that are left can’t stop the flood of the waters that are sinking the LDS Titanic.
    Please Mormons, keep proclaiming this doctrine of men becoming gods loudly and often and before someone signs on the dotted line.

    Hmmm, listening to Falcon discarding Mormonism you would think that the Church is in it’s final stages of its own existence. Amazing that this forum and especially the likes of Aaron, Sharon etc, etc feel compelled to even post anymore since the truth of Mormonism has been exposed and has few years left before the great and final fall, where in all members will just walk away and Mormonism will vanish, interesting indeed.

    Mosser and Owen state:
    “Finally, might we suggest that members of organizations such as the Evangelical Theological Society consider forming Mormonism Study Groups. The fact is that the growth of Mormonism is outpacing even the highest predictions of professional sociologists of religion, and is on its way, within eighty years, to becoming the first world-religion since Islam in the seventh century”.

    “In this battle the Mormons are fighting valiantly. And the evangelicals? It appears that we may be losing the battle and not knowing it”.

    Regards, Richard 🙂

  28. Remember, folks, this is a thread about the “royal line of sinless saviors” and the God Never Sinned issue.

  29. Mike R says:

    Grindael,

    Thanks for sharing your testimony.You’ve
    come a long way. Jesus saves ” to the
    uttermost ” ! [Heb.7:25]

  30. subgenius says:

    Aaron
    has it not already been determined by the Ev that since JC “erased our sin record” thus making us perfect like Him, which means that “clean” must be a subjecive term to the Ev. Furthermore, since Our Heavenly Father is creator of all things, it would be impossible for sin to exist without Him.
    So, you see your premise is flawed and thus can not be “rationalized”.

    Grindael
    Not to discount your sufferings or celebrations in life, but quite frankly everyone here has a story. I appreciate your “bearing your testimony” but surely you can see how that serves no purpose inthis forum except to unburden one’s self.
    As far as your exclamations about slavery, you should re-read my post and your history books. Yes, slavery was condoned and encouraged by civlized societies prior to ours, and no, the civil war was not actually started over slavery (when did Lincoln “free” the slaves?) and by the way, since i am not white does that give my “racial” insight more creedence than yours?
    You claim to “respect” Mormons above, but clearly you do not, you have an axe to grind against the church, your father, those who prejudiced against your wife, and possibly countless others….sorry to be so blunt but this “axe grind” is a hinderance to you….it can be an obstacle for all of us….look back at your words and attitude in your post, is there love there? is this the manner by which JC would speak through you?

  31. LARRY CLARK says:

    Sub – are you condoning slavery? Just because it is mentioned in the Bible and practiced by people doesn’t make it right. The Bible, mentions, murder, adultery, incest, etc. In regards to any race it best to keep God’s word in mind, 1 Samuel 16-7, in part “for the lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearnce, but the Lord looketh on the heart.”

  32. falcon says:

    grindael,
    You’ve earned the right to expound on Mormonism both from experience and intense study. I’ve gotten to know many of the exMormons who post here and their stories just blow me away. That’s why I keep at it here hoping that perhaps the effort will bring other Mormons to the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and an understanding of who God really is.
    “What is God like?” If by that question we mean “What is God like in Himself?” there is no answer. If we mean “What has God disclosed about Himself that the reverent reason can comprehend?” there is, I believe an answer both full and satisfying. For while the name of God is secret and His essential nature incomprehensible, He in condescending love has by revelation declared certain things to be true of Himself. An attribute is how God is, and as far as the reasoning mind can go, we may say that it is what God is, though, exactly what He is He cannot tell us. Only to an equal could God communicate the mystery of His Godhead; and to think of God as having an equal is to fall into an intellectual absurdity.

    (A.W. Tozer; “The Knowledge of the Holy”)

  33. HankSaint says:

    Only to an equal could God communicate the mystery of His Godhead; and to think of God as having an equal is to fall into an intellectual absurdity.

    Are you saying that the Nicene groupies were equal with God?
    Intellectual absurdity, the CREEDS? Excuse me, did you not just contradict your own beliefs?

    richard.

  34. HankSaint says:

    Aaron states he will be singing “Amazing Grace” for all eternity.
    Richard Johnson, will be singing “Amazing Grace” and afterwards deal with My Work and MY Glory for ever and all eternity.

    R. 🙂

  35. falcon says:

    “God has no origin,” said Novatian, and it is precisely this concept of no-origin which distinguishes That-which-is-God from whatever is not God. Origin is a word that can apply only to things created. God is self-existent. He is unaffected by time or motion, is wholly self-dependent and owes nothing to the worlds His hands have made. A more positive assertion of selfhood could not be imagined than those words of God to Moses: I AM THAT I AM. Everything God is, everything that is God, is set forth in that unqualified declaration of independent being. Yet in God, self is not sin but the quintessence of all possible goodness, holiness and truth. The natural man is a sinner because and only because he challenges God’s selfhood in realization to his own. The earliest fulfillment of these words of Christ was at Pentecost after Peter had preached the first great Christian sermon. “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?” This “What shall we do?” is the deep heart cry of every man who suddenly realizes that he is a usurper and sits on a stolen throne.
    I’ve borrowed liberally here from A.W. Tozer because he brings to mind the absolute bankruptcy and the corruption of who God is by Joseph Smith. Smith was a corruptible individual who denigrated the name and person of the living God. He challenged God’s person and being and reduced the Almighty to an idol of a sinful man who through progression became a god. Smith’s “revelation” was a knock-off of the lie Lucifer told himself. Lucifer’s motivation was pride, something Smith held in spades. Under a veil of false modesty and righteousness, Mormons fool themselves into thinking that they too will become gods. Having given themselves over to this deception, their minds have become seared. They won’t turn to the living God for forgiveness and restoration. How deep must this pride be?

  36. falcon says:

    Excuse me while I go puke. “….my Work and my Glory” ????
    This ladies and gentleman says it all; the self glorification of the Mormon male. Am I starring Satan in the eye here? This is beyond sick! Someone please post this in a place where we can be reminded everyday of the insidious rot within Mormonism that produces individuals with this view of themselves.
    This is all we need to know about the restored gospel. Unbelievable!

  37. subgenius, which premise do you think that challenges?

    When Jesus forgives someone, he renders it so his or her sin isn’t held against them. Neither Jesus nor the sinner ultimately, actually forgets the sin. I will always be a forgiven sinner.

    I have been surprised at the frequency with which Mormons on the street (including Mormon apologists) suggest that God ACTUALLY forgets that forgiven sinner ever sinned.

  38. HankSaint says:

    After you get done puking, why not read the Book of Mormon and all the other LDS Scriptures and Doctrine and get real. If you Evangelicals want to sensationalize our beliefs, what better then to give you every opportunity to add more and more to your tabloid mental condition, so post this in every room in your house, it will
    reinforce most of what you glean from your antiquated tabloid source materials. Hmmm, interesting indeed. 🙂

    R.

  39. grindael says:

    sub-

    Some of my comments were for J Olsen, to answer this: that some posters here do not “get” mormonism and that I was just digging up dirt to post with no thought behind what I was posting. I did not bear my testimony, I gave olsen the reasons why I post the way I do, He asked. I do not have an axe to grind, I forgave my father years ago. My motivation is simple. Smith is evil, as is BY and the other prophets, and I have intimate knowledge that they are liars and a fraud. Everyone here is or was impacted personally by Smith. He is the one telling the whole world they are wrong and he is right. He is the one who turned my world (and many others) upside down with his lies. Another thing, I said I respect Jim, not you, you have shown me no reason to. And you are wrong about the Civil War also, from WIKI: “The coexistence of a slave-owning South with an increasingly anti-slavery North made conflict likely, if not inevitable” – under cause of the civil war. You can’t even get that right, so maybe you need to read up on history.

    As to the Topic.

    God would have no need to put his plan to a vote. He is God. God came down and sacrificed himself on the cross for us, for our sins, so we may be with him after the ressurection. This drama about Satan and Christ with “plans” is all made up nonsense put in the temple ceremony to promote the many gods theory of Smith and Young. In Kirtland, Smith and Cowdery said they saw Jesus, Adam and Michael in a vision. Michael’s name was erased out of the later editions, because if Adam is Michael than they could not have seen them together, could they. The mormon ‘plan of salvation’ evolved over years, as did all of Smith’s doctrines. Aaron rightly should be skeptical about it, it makes no sense at all.

  40. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Honestly, I can’t fathom how anyone here can keep up with the accusations being hurled back and forth.

    Not surprising, though, since this is the legacy that ST. Augustine himself introduced into the church; that of endless rhetoric and philosophy to CONVINCE the world that Christianity was true. Of course, this was totally contrary to the gospel of testimony that Jesus and his apostles taught.

    This whole discussion underlines a comment made by falcon (or rather The falcon now) in regards to seeking EVIDENCE. LDS do seek for evidence, albeit, entirely different evidence than the MRM group desires. We are seeking for ‘EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN’, according to Paul’s definition of faith. Everthing on this blog wants evidence of things SEEN, which is not really faith at all but knowledge. this group cannot even grasp the first and most crucial aspect of the gosel, Faith in Jesus Christ, and they are talking about a royal line of Saviors? Please! You are seeking for things you cannot possibly understand.

    The injunction to “Repent all ye ends of the earth (for your arrogance)” seems appropriate. This is the simple gospel that MRM is constantly making claims to, but refuses to actually practice (too boring I assume)

  41. setfree says:

    So that’s the deal then? The LDS out here commenting are above the Bible and the EV’s who hope to share it because you’re on your way to godhood and nothing’s going to stand in your way?

    Quick question for Saint Richard. Are you ready to meet God tonight, should you die? Are you perfect, and perfectly living your covenants?

    Same questions to Jim Olsen, Ralph, DotF, Sub.

    Please answer

  42. subgenius says:

    grindael
    are you even from America?
    read Lincoln’s 1861 onauguration speech…especially the part where he says he will not stop slavery in those states where it already exists. If wiki is your source for why the war started , perhaps you should “google” some other, more credible, sources…do you wiki the gospel as well?
    Nevertheless
    why wouldn’t God put the “plan” to a vote?…he obviously gave us the gift of free agency, he obviously prefers us to “choose” rather than be mere puppets.
    So, now you claim the Son of God is God? My how the Ev love to bait and switch within the meaning of the scriptures. Is it your contention that therewas no plan? did Satan and JC merely happen impromptu?
    I would be curious as to which “evolved” translation of the Bible you draw from, is it the one where Peter, unwitnessed, sees JC after he is Resurrected? Those crazy prophets, huh?

    setfree
    why do Ev always try to ask “loaded” question? always deceptive, always trying to turn truth on its head in hopes that a affirmation of their own diluted viewpoint will fall out of a Mormon’s pocket. Hypotheticals, like what if President Monson showed up at General Conference with a portugese midget transvestite and announces that LDS support of Prop 8 was a mistake…nonsensical for our purpose don’t you think?
    Anyway, to answer your questions:

    am i ready to meet God tonite?
    yes, of course…just hope my shirt is clean. what am going to say, no but i will be ready next week.
    are you perfect?
    that is not for me to say
    am i perfectly living my covenants?
    again, this type of perfection is not for me to determine, but i can say that i try to live my life for a higher purpose and when i realize i have made an error i repent and endure.

    so, why don’t you share your answers to these same questions?

  43. grindael says:

    subgenious-

    Lincoln’s own words:

    And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons. -Emancipation Proclamation, 1863.

    The Southern States suceeded because of SLAVERY. The war was fought OVER SLAVERY. Lincoln FREED THE SLAVES, that is why we do not have slavery anymore. You can’t change the truth of it by attacking me. I paid attention in school. Pick up ANY book on the Civil War and it says the same.

    I see why you have been duped by Smith. You have evidence right in front of you, but you choose not to believe it because you can’t admit to being wrong.

    I never claimed Jesus wasn’t God. It’s what the Bible says. There is ONE GOD. Not many Gods. That is what a Christian is. Mormonism is a cult because they do not believe in ONE GOD. There is no bait and switch here. Only with Smith. Read the Articles of Faith. You can read, can’t you? In 1835 he says the Father is a spirit, after he supposedly saw him in a vision in 1820 then changed his mind again. I gotta see how you explain that away.

    Smith’s hatred for blacks was incorporated into his plan of salvation myth. These were those who made wrong choices in this pre-existant fantasy world of Smith’s. This is the nonsense. Your incoherent ramblings make no sense. You show no proof of anything, I have listed and quoted all my sources.

  44. subgenius says:

    grindael
    war started in 1861…Lincoln freed them in 1863…obviously did you not read his inaugural address?
    studied alot about the civil war, enough to know you are wrong..of course i also learned the difference between succeed and secede (which proves that not only can i “read”, i can also spell).
    “Smith’s hatred for blacks”? holy cow, axe grinder is a little heavy on the supposition.

    You ask me to read the Articles of Faith, which were written in 1842, then you ramble something about 1835 and 1820. please, clarify what exactly you are asking or saying.

    Also, i have reviewed the plan of salvation and see no references to race, i was even looking for the incorporation of “Smith’s hatred for blacks”…is that incorporated in the celestial kingdom? Maybe Smith hated the blacks because it would not be until 1882 when the Chinese Exclusion Act would be passed by Congress, surely he would have hated them if he had just been given the opportunity.

    By the way your facts are wrong, Brigham Young is the president that started the “racial restriction” policy on the LDS church in 1849.
    Joseph Smith dead in 1844.
    JS actually called for a gradual end of slavery by 1850 as a part of his failed presidential bid.
    Again, you should study history from books, not from falcon.

    quoting the emancipation proclamation must have been a proud moment for you.

  45. grindael,

    I just scanned over your previous posts.

    If anyone has the qualified for the right to comment on Mormonism, I think you have.

    Preach it, bro!

  46. HankSaint says:

    Setfree,

    Hmmm, above the Bible? interesting. Wonder why we call our scriptures the quad. I love the Bible, and especially since Joseph cleared up a few scriptures. As far as sharing it, I hope your doing just that, as we find that many of our 60,000 young men are doing while serving our God on a mission to present the RESTORED GOSPEL.

    Answer, yes, no, no. 🙂

    R.

  47. falcon says:

    Holy is the way God is. To be holy He does not conform to a standard. He is that standard. He is absolutely holy with an infinite, incomprehensible fullness of purity that is incapable of being other that it is. Because He is holy, His attributes are holy; that is, whatever we think of as belonging to God must be thought of as holy. (A.W. Tozer)
    God has no beginning. He has no end. His very character and nature are holiness. He has never been anything other than He is at this moment, absolutely holy. Joseph Smith invented a god that was a sinful man. This sinful man, according to Mormonism, through his own efforts transformed himself into a type of a god. One like the millions or billions before him. Mormon polytheism has no special god, just a bunch of former sinful men. Mormons know nothing of God. They know nothing of His salvation. What they have is an image of themselves. If you ask Christians what is the hope that is within you, they will say, “Christ is the hope that is within me.” Ask a Mormon what is his hope and he will say, “To be glorified as a god with countless minions worshiping and adoring me.” This Luciferian religion borrows it’s motivation from that creature that sought also to steal god’s glory for himself. What a wretched mess this Mormonism is. Their is no salvation in Mormonism. Only a dark tunnel with no end.

  48. HankSaint says:

    My Image! Wow, I always figured that as a preexistent spirt, born or created by a Father and a Mother was pretty common thinking amongst those of us who can see and think out side the box. Along comes Creedal Christianity and bingo, slaves to the box.
    As Aaron stated, singing ““Amazing Grace” for all eternity just does not seem like a whole lot of fun. But then again, you will be with like company where all will be pleased to sing along the eternal praise, no work but just heartfelt singing.

    What is my hope? that those of you who are in denial of God still speaking to His Church and Kingdom will wake up before and “til the fat lady sings”, or stops singing, whatever.

    What a wretched mess, Creedal thinking and all that it presupposes.

    R.

  49. liv4jc says:

    Wow Sub, your arrogance, meaness of spirit, and hardness of heart never cease to amaze me. Your comments towards Grindael were unwarranted. I have seen numerous spelling and grammatical errors in your postings, and I don’t believe anyone has stooped to the level of questioning your intelligence or sincerity for them. Didn’t you level a charge of an unwarranted ad hominum attack regarding JS at me? Yet you blatantly use ad hominum to attack our friend Grindael. His spelling mistake has nothing to do with his intelligence, or his understanding of the events of the Civil War.

    “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”

    You’re smart enough to find the scripture reference on your own. Read it in context, as usual, in light of your Mormon Mishna. Your paltry works will never soften or cleanse your hard heart.

    Grindael has admitted that he feels deeply betrayed and hurt by the lies he swallowed while a member of Smith’s church, and he is angry for a good reason. Did you ever stop to think that many of his writings are an attempt to stuff 13 years of lies into 2000 characters at a time? His writing is like sitting in on a brain storming session. Once he starts it just floods out. He wants to tell everyone who is reading all that he knows so that they don’t waste one more day of their lives for a lie like he did. If you stop and listen to any former cult member their experience the same: Shame, guilt, and embarrassment that they could have been so deceived.

    This is totally off topic, as has been most of this thread, but someone needs to give you a mirror.

    Still sincerely praying for you, Sub, because I see shades of my own anger and arrogance in your writing. I know my Lord can change you as He changed me.

    I’m praying for you to Grindael. May God continue to give you greater and greater peace. Vent away, my friend.

  50. Enki says:

    Sub,
    “Hypotheticals, like what if President Monson showed up at General Conference with a portugese midget transvestite and announces that LDS support of Prop 8 was a mistake…”

    An article in newsweek made it appear that the LDS battle in prop 8 was a mistake. That it was wearing on members, and not good public relations. Mostly for making the issue of gay marriage appear to be the only important thing for mormons. It also seemed to me that the church ‘protests a little too much’.

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