Clint Roberts writes,
If only a few rare beings in the infinite family tree are part of this unique royal succession who lived sinlessly on earth in order to be redeemers, then it still remains that sinners become gods just as great & powerful as ours (in fact it’s the norm). So big deal if WE just so happen to be offspring in that rare line of succession in which one son (always the eldest, I guess?) in every ‘litter’ carries the sinless-while-on-earth gene. Right?
Brian Mackert writes,
It moves the problem to a different God. You and I who ARE SINNERS are, according to Mormonism, supposed to be able to become Gods just like God the Father did, but God the Father wasn’t a sinner? See the contradiction? God the Father wasn’t a sinner, didn’t need a Savior, didn’t need atonement for sin, didn’t need to be redeemed, never fell into sin, it is impossible for us to become a God like He did!!!
The whole of Mormon Theology begins to unravel. If God was a sinless Savior like Jesus, then how was He tested by the flesh so that He could earn His own godhood and be exalted? Was he special somehow? And if we are to become gods just like he did then why aren’t we all sinless Saviors too?
What about the Holy Ghost? How did He become a God without a physical body and being tried by it? What’s up with that? Is He special too?
What about Jesus? How come it’s possible for him to become a God without ever having fallen into sin like us and needing to be redeemed?
It seems to me that if being a sinner or being sinless is optional then there is no need for this probationary period and the trials of the flesh. Why should we have to endure the trials of the flesh in order to become a God if this is optional. It seems to me that if we were to become Gods as they became Gods, then we wouldn’t have had the fall in the Garden of Eden. We would have all remained sinless and become sinless Gods as God the Father did and as Jesus did.
jackg on October 9th, 2009
I might be sarcastic but never condescending, I leave that to Falcon and others. You say that Joseph Smith was a fraud and it can be proven, yet you give nothing to even show your competent to state such dribble. Borrowed talking points, accusations, and criticism done by others does not make you exactly a expert on Joseph Smith, so what do you personally have to show me that is not borrowed or copied from someone else, please be original.
I come to defend, but so far I only find the usual sensationalized tabloid gossip one can find at any grocery store. I will defend when you provide some hard evidence to back up what you only lamely spew out as facts but unwittingly do nothing more then give reason for our guest and visitors to do some research you miserably fail to do on your own.
r. 🙂
Liv4jc,
Great comment and right to the point.
Grindael,
I think Sub has a point. J.S. appointed a black elder who eventually became a 70.
“1836: Elijah Abel Ordained an Elder
In March of 1836, Elijah Abel is given the priesthood and ordained to the office of Elder. This is reportedly done by Joseph Smith himself.”
“1836: Elijah Abel Ordained a Seventy
In December of 1836 Elijah is ordained a Seventy by Zebedee Coltrin. He also becomes a “duly licensed minister of the Gospel” for missionary work in Ohio. (Minutes of the Seventies Journal, December 20, 1836)”
http://www.blacklds.org/history
Its also unclear to me the exact history. But many of the most objectionable doctrines of the SLC appeared so very late in J.S. life. I believe that the RLDS church claims that these didn’t have their origin from smith, but rather Brigham Young. Some other sects also reject most of these same doctrines, many of the passages of D&C, and the BOA.
subconscious,
(pun intended)
You misspelled inauguration (after you asked me if I was American…)
I put the quote from the Em. Proc. in because you obvious with all your Civil War learning did not know when Lincoln freed the slaves..”(when did Lincoln “free” the slaves?)”
One more time. I don’t like repeating myself to stubborn fools.
The civil war was over SLAVERY. When running for Pres. Lincoln ran on a platform (among other things) to stop slavery from expanding into the territories.(1860) The southern states secede from the union shortly after his election. (May 1861)
First shot at Sumpter: (Jan. 1861)
From Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephens’s “Cornerstone Speech,” Savannah, March 21, 1861:
“Our new government is founded upon … the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and normal condition.”
From Senator Charles Sumner (1863):
“[T]here are two apparent rudiments to this war. One is Slavery and the other is State Rights. But the latter is only a cover for the former. If Slavery were out of the way there would be no trouble from State Rights.”
What more does it take?
The whole myth of the mark of Cain comes from a deep-rooted hatred of the black race. It made Smith and Company, and a lot of other Americans feel superior. I’m not the one who propagated the Doctrine, Smith, your prophet did. BY got the doctrine from Smith. ” Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species…” Their species is human.DHC 5. This is Gods Prophet? He could not see past the climate of the day. He went along with what every other racist was doing and saying. Segregation is Racism. It has no place in a prophet from any time period.
Sorry MikeR, I missed that question. I have never taught the Gospel doctrine class officially. I did 3 times ad lib when the teacher did not turn up a while ago. On my mission, I did have an investigator ask that question (and others) and I said that yes we did and then asked if they were ready to find out and understand how and why. They joined the church.
Setfree,
I am ready to meet Jesus who is my mediator with Heavenly Father. He will then judge me according to my faithfulness in Him, and then take my case to The Father. If I have been faithful enough then Jesus will tell Heavenly Father to let me in. It is through Jesus that we have our ‘leniency’ from Heavenly Father’s demand of perfection (ie mercy vs justice). Am I perfect in keeping the commandments and the covenants I made? No I am not, but I try to be and Jesus covers the rest.
Larry,
In my opinion (and I have my evidence from Heavenly Father through the Holy Ghost) you are the one following Satan and listening to him over the Bible.
Falcon,
If that statement was publically denounced by the Prophet (and church) and was not made by a Prophet then you cannot use it to make a statement about our church and its beliefs. It does not reflect our doctrine either then or now. You can pull out all the ones by the Prophets you like, but if they are not by a Prophet then they are neither here nor there.
Mormons,
How can you reconcile this:
The plan of salvation (the character of the Godhead integral to it) evolved in Smiths mind. In 1835 he taught this:
“There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things…
The Father being a personage of SPIRIT, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a PERSONAGE OF TABERNACLE…
Q. Why was he called the Son?
A. Because of the flesh
Q. What is this mind? (OF GOD)
A. The Holy Spirit
Lectures on Faith, Preface to the Doctrine and Covenants, Kirtland Ohio:
“We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.” (Smith, Cowdery and F. G. Williams names appear below this preface)
He saw God in 1820 right? Floating in the air next to Jesus, right? Yet after this in 1835, fifteen years later, He approves a series of Lectures on Faith that precede his new revelations, about God. It teaches God is a Spirit. It teaches Jesus is flesh. It teaches the HG is nothing more than the mind of God. Not a personage.
In Smith’s first handwritten account of the first vision, (1832)he does not even say the Father appeared to him, only Christ, COULD IT BE, could it be, that Smith made it up? Evolved it? Scheming to find a way to be with all those pretty girls he saw running around? I know, there are many Gods, I actually saw 2 men in that vision, yeah, and they have many wifes to populate all those earths, yeah, yeah, God was like us, sinned like us, but, but he made it through, he became A GOD… yeah, Hey, Oliver, write this down, write this down, this is good stuff…what Oliver, you don’t like me being with Fanny, oh but she is SO CUTE, hey don’t worry about Emma, I can handle her…yeah, Oh and those pesky negros, well they were just awful in the, the, yeah pre-existence…blah, blah, blah ad nauseam..
Richard,
Christians are open to God. We are just not open to SMITH. Jesus gave us what we need. He said so, and so did his TRUE apostles:
1 Cor. 4:6, “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn NOT TO EXCEED WHAT IS WRITTEN, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”
Paul saw Smith coming a long time before it happened. That is why your comments like this one, were anticipated by Paul so long ago:
What is my hope? that those of you who are in denial of God still speaking to His Church and Kingdom will wake up before and “til the fat lady sings”, or stops singing, whatever.
What a wretched mess, Creedal thinking and all that it presupposes.
No one is denying that God still speaks, He just doesn’t reveal the confused babel that Smith spews. Paul sought to stop this practice of “I’m right, everyone else is wrong” long ago, that is why he cautioned to not exceed what is written. That is why real Christians are so reluctant to accept prophetic claims that God once sinned which is nowhere Bible supported, just suppositions based on Smiths teaching he was once a man LIKE US.
Creeds are only good for one thing, clarification. They are not binding unless one makes them so. That is the beauty of the simple gospel, if men start up a church you can compare it and go elsewhere. Gods church will always be here, for it is IN us. Jesus made it easy, call on his name, be baptized, believe he is the Lord and the Holy Spirit will guide you for the rest of your life. ALL of Smiths teachings are UN-NEEDED.
He makes the whole reason Christ came invalid by saying God could not keep his church together. What arrogance. What vanity. This is what Paul meant and when you harp about us not believing God still speaks to us you are dead wrong. He just does not speak through Smith and his church.
The question of sin and god or jesus is an interesting question. I just found the following:
“The Barna Research Group conducts nationwide surveys among American adults on a variety of religious topics. Some results from 1999 phone surveys are:
42% of adults believe that Jesus committed sins while on earth.”
“In 2001, the same question was asked again. The percentage of adults who strongly disagree that he committed sins during his life on earth remained at 40%. However, Barna Research also listed results by denomination:
Above average: Pentecostal / Foursquare: 73%
Latter-day Saints (Mormons): 70%
Assembly of God: 70%
Non-denominational, mostly Fundamentalist: 63%
Baptist: 55%
Church of Christ: 54% ”
Thats kind of strange that LDS answered higher than Non-Demoninational, mostly fundamentalist christians!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcsi1.htm
On the Barna survey that asked “Did Jesus live a sinless life?”, Enki commented
Not really.
The LDS movement is a world leader in hiding its doctrines, even from its members.
I’d guess that the 70% of LDS who answered that Jesus did NOT sin are more influenced by orthodox Christianity than the teachings of Joseph Smith Junior, Brigham Young and the whole line of ‘prophets’…
…which is ironic, given that they should be more heavily influenced by the restored gospel of their prophets than the (allegedly) apostate orthodox church.
It looks like the watchmen have been sleeping at their posts.
Hank, in your response to Jack G from earlier, you accuse him of many things, and demand that he not use “Borrowed talking points, accusations, and criticism done by others does not make you exactly a expert on Joseph Smith.” Yet, in an earlier post you were carded and warned not to simply cut and paste whole sections from others. And your tone is completely condescending and arrogant, still. I wonder if anyone else notices this?
Enki,
I’m aware of Elijah, I have read the DHC cover to cover. I’ve read most of the Journal of Discourses. I’ve read and had memorized at one time MOST of the BOM. It was my #1 priority for 13 years.
When you step out of the shadows, you understand things a whole lot more clearly. My judgement is no longer skewed to smith. Every hear of a token black person? Smith even called the blacks another species.
I call it as I see it, as it is, that smith and his followers believed the black man a spiritual and intellectual inferior, based on smiths phony teaching that there were a bunch of pre-existent spirits who sat on the sidelines during the war in heaven where God put it to a vote on what to do about the coming earth experience.
Christ and Lucifer volunteered to be the “saviours”, submitted plans, and the Father said he’d go with Christs plan. Lucifer got mad and rebelled, he wanted to force everyone to be good so we would all be saved, kind of like the works oriented religion of the mormons now) and the pre-existent negroes sat on the fence, so they were punished by God.
As BY said not one of them would get the priesthood till all the superior whites got it. I guess they had a colored section in heaven too. Did they have to ride in the back of the spiritual bus till their time came to come down here and get more of the same?
Does this sound like science-fiction? no it is taken as fact by millions of mormons. To top it off as far back as anyone can ever go, its been going on over and over and over and over. God is not unique. Christ is not unique. WE are not unique. We are like the spawn of some giant spiritual spider, billions and billions of us, with only a chosen few (preferably white and delight-some getting to party in the Celestial Kingdom) the only way to get there is thru the secret temple handshakes and passwords, with smith ok-ing everyone first. King smith, ordained a king over the entire earth in Nauvoo in 1843. Give me a break
The word “good” means so many things to so many persons. When Christian theology says that God is good, it is not the same as saying that He is righteous or holy. The holiness of God is trumpeted from the heavens and re-echoed on earth by saints and sages wherever God has revealed Himself to men.
That God is good is taught or implied on every page of the Bible and must be received as an article of faith as impregnable as the throne of God. It is a foundation stone for all sound thought about God and is necessary to moral sanity. To allow that God could be other than good is to deny the validity of all thought and end in the negation of every moral judgment. Divine goodness, as one of God’s attributes, is self-caused, infinite, perfect, and eternal. Since God is immutable He never varies in the intensity of His loving-kindness. He has never been kinder than He now is, nor will He ever be less kind. The cause of His goodness is in Himself; the recipients of His goodness are all His beneficiaries without merit and without recompense. (A.W.Tozer)
Mormons do not know God, nor do they worship Him. Mormons don’t know the eternal, unchanging God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Mormons have substituted a sinful man who, they believe, progressed by his own efforts to become a god. This is the “hook” in Mormonism. It’s the reduction of God to manageable size so that man can “play” God. To become a god, in the mind of Mormonism, is just a matter of effort. If one does enough, he too can become a god.
What fools Mormonism produces. To think that they can gain for themselves a righteousness leading to godhood is not only a rejection of God, it is the pathway to spiritual destruction.
Like I stated Falcon, Creedal in the box thinking 🙂
Fools? yes, and then along comes the Restored Gospel, and revelation again pours from Heaven to Gods Kingdom restored here on earth along with Priesthood authority.
Creedal Fools, in denial of continuous revelation, additional scriptures, by claiming the Heavens are shut and God is dead.
Claiming God is Good and unchanging smacks of deep denial, for the contradiction is you have changed God from one who revealed himself, to one who for centuries has nothing more to say. A Bible, a Bible, we have our bible and there cannot be anymore. We will not allow God to add or subtract from his own words, he is quiet and appoints no one in these last days to lead and guide his children for they reject the prophets and authority.
r.
Ralph,
Thank you for being honest.I appreciate that
you don’t try to dodge or deny core LDS beliefs.
It’s difficult for me to think of you as one
day becoming Almighty God, that one day
multitudes will worshipping you saying:
“Hallelujah! For Ralph the Lord our God,the
Almighty,reigns.”[Rev.19:6]
I hope you’ll reconsider this Ralph.
Ward stated,
“Hank, in your response to Jack G from earlier, you accuse him of many things, and demand that he not use “Borrowed talking points, accusations, and criticism done by others does not make you exactly a expert on Joseph Smith.” Yet, in an earlier post you were carded and warned not to simply cut and paste whole sections from others. And your tone is completely condescending and arrogant, still. I wonder if anyone else notices this?”
HS replies,
I may have been carded, but guess what friend, what I posted was accurate, to the point, and obviously annoying to both Sharon and Aaron since it seems to have hit a nerve. Talking points by Creedal Christians are mostly just accusations, criticisms, out of context quotes that when shown to be in error the accuser usually runs along to the next talking point without ever dealing with his or her blunders. Interesting and yet sad that when I as a LDS defender can demolish lame accusations, the poster is seen for what they are, just pretenders to making statements that LDS and our Doctrine never made. I wonder if anyone else notices, what say you visitors and guest, does it make you want to do your own research and see who is telling the truth?
R.
Enki,
The survey you referenced was’nt surprising.
I used to kind of keep track of polls like
this.Back in 1982 in what was one of the
largest surveys conducted at that time,it
asks Pastors and faculty for their beliefs
on a wide range of questions.Concerning
their belief on the Deity of Christ, it
was apparent that a problem was evolving
as only about 50% answered correctly that
Jesus was God.
This slide away from Biblical truth is also
seen in whole denominations changing their
stance on moral issues as well.The number
of “christians” condoning homosexuality as
an acceptable lifestyle is climbing,for
example.
I remember NBC news had a report a few years
ago that the percentage of college students
who believed that cheating on exams was not
wrong,was alarming.
The Bible mentions that the closer we get to
Christ’s return that there would be a falling
away from spiritual truth and also morally.
That’s why the poll you referenced is’nt
surprising.
As mercy is God’s goodness confronting human misery and guilt, so grace is His goodness directed toward human debt and demerit. It is by His grace that God imputes merit where none previously existed and declares no debt to be where one had been before.
Grace is the good pleasure of God that inclines Him to bestow benefits upon the underserving. It is a self-existent principle inherent in the divine nature and appears to us as a self-caused propensity to pity the wretched, spare the guilty, welcome the outcast, and bring into favor those who were before under just disapprobation. Its use to us sinful men is to save us and make us sit together in heavenly places to demonstrate to the ages the exceeding riches of God’s kindness to us in Christ Jesus. We benefit eternally by God’s being just what He is. Grace takes its rise far back in the heart of God, in the incomprehensible abyss of His holy being, but the channel through which it flows out to men is Jesus Christ, crucified and risen. (A.W.Tozer)
The pathetic attempts of Mormons to make themselves gods is an attempt by them to deny their very sin nature. Born with a corrupted nature, man cannot make anything of himself a part from the grace of God. In the Mormon system, their very god has a corrupted nature. He is guilty of every abomination including rape, murder and theft. How can this be? Well the Bible tells us if we have violated one of the Laws, we are guilty of the whole law. This Mormon god is a very low creature in deed. But with this view of a low sinful god in mind, Mormons can puff themselves up and find themselves equal with their god. He is of course, in their view, further along the track of progression, but where he came from was low, very low.
Who wants a god like this one? Only those with a self-possessed pride and narcissism that knows no bounds.
Richard,
Why do you keep harping that christians think God is dead? We do believe that He works in our lives, through the influence of the Holy Spirit. You seem to be stuck on creeds, what point are you trying to make with that. All I sense from you is a bottomless pit of fear and memorized responses. That is what those who believe in creeds do.
Christians believe in the Bible, and don’t need smith or his doctrines and phony revelations that have no bearing on life here. Jesus answered all the questions, for every situation in life there is an answer in the Bible.
God is NOT dead, not to us. But He definately is NOT an exalted sinner, with a plethora of wives spewing out spiritual babies…, The whole idea of it is laughably sad…
We just dont believe in smith, et all. We DO believe that God still works in our lives, I pray everyday and get good direction from the Lord. The Holy Spirit keeps me and protects me and gives me strength to overcome all in my life. My good works flow out of the love I have in Jesus. All the NEEDLESS revelations of smith do nothing for anyone. Jesus was the ultimate revelation and STILL IS. Get off the creed mantra and read the real scripture, the Bible. It has all the answers you will ever need.
Grindael,
I truly am sorry for the way your life has been such a hardship for you. But blaming Mormonism for much of your own failings does not add up to making it the only reason you feel and act the way you do. So quit with the blaming of Mormonism and start owning up to one’s own responsibilities to self and family. If God still works in our lives, then quit with the pointing of fingers and start getting on your knees and seek forgiveness that your guilt towards your father has brought upon you. Forgive your father and move on.
R.
Just a quick note to Richard.
Those Creeds you so hate were written in response to the heresies of people like Smith. Who do you think had a better grasp on the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, those who are millenia removed from the original source, the Apostles, or those who were very close to them and their disciples? The Creeds were not written as a result of mystical spiritualism, like looking at a rock in a hat, or supposed revelation, but were the result of long term councils conducted by the leaders of the early church based upon already established belieif. Those beliefs were just organized as a standard to protect against further heresies. Don’t tell me that your own church does not have a standardized works that form the basis for your beliefs.
Furthermore, most Christians have never read any of the Creeds (I was saved apart from any organized church), but we agree on the basic doctrine of our faith, salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Many Christians who attend different churches, but when we get together and discuss our love for our Lord, not our “church” or our pastor, it is like being with family. Smithians don’t have this. Whenever I hear my Smithian friends talk it is only about which ward they attend, and who their bishop is, who is in the ward, and that is as far as it gets. There is never any talk about Jesus Christ, or the Prophet.
r.
If you read my posts, i already said I forgave my father long ago. It is a christian duty to expose the lies of smith perpetuated in the name of God. The problem with explaining how you come to a certain point in life is that people like you will twist it into anything to take the heat off of yourself. I have a loving relationship with God. I have a beautiful wife and am doing very well. The reason i am here, is because of mormon acquaintances who had questions about exactly what gets debated here.
It made me re-evaluate what I should be doing. What I experienced with mormonism was long ago. Im way beyond the anger, I only have disgust with how you and the other mormon posters treat christians. You have no defense, have not given one good answer to all the DOCTRINAL POINTS I have posted on. Subgenious wants to argue the civil war. You want to rant about creeds and how we think God is dead. You don’t answer any of the points about Smith and all the evidence to his fraud.
When you do this, then maybe you will be able to stand up and make a difference. Right now you are saying I cant stand my own failings, but what I related happened long ago. I did not fail, I got out of the shadow of smith and triumphed. I will continue to do so, because I worship a loving God that I found after I left the shadow of mormonism. I never felt guilty over my father. I had to understand why he acted how he did. Jesus gave me the strength to do that. He can do it for you to, if you would honestly get on your knees and leave the evasive responses behind.
grindael and liv4jc,
I love the way you guys write; both the quantity and quality. What you write has influence on both Christians and the Mormon lurkers who come here and read but don’t post. You are providing information that will help these folks make a decision to leave this religious counterfeit of Mormonism.
Justice, when used of God, is a name we give to the way God is, nothing more; and when God acts justly He is not doing so to conform to an independent criterion, but simply acting like Himself in a given situation. As gold is an element in itself and can never change nor compromise but is gold wherever it is found, so God is God, always, only, fully God, and can never be other than He is. Everything in the universe is good to the degree it conforms to the nature of God and evil as it fails to do so.
God is His own self-existent principle of moral equity, and when He sentences evil men or rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself. (A.W.Tozer)
What an awesome God we Christians worship. Never a doubt that He is the very definition of holiness, goodness and justice. Compare this to the creation of Joseph Smith who made his invented god nothing more than a sinful man who “progressed”. Thee God is eternal. He is everlasting. He never progressed. He just is! Praise and glory to His Name now and forever. Amen!
Hank. Nice response missing my point. I never said what you pointed out was true or not. I pointed out that your arrogance of violating the rules, ignoring that you were caught cutting and pasting (we are supposed to summarize, not cut and paste) and then accusing Grindael of doing what you have a history of doing. Evidently it is OK for you to do anything you want.
Again Ward, I repeat that what I posted was in response to false facts and evidence that are the norm here. Even your Scholars Mossier and Owen have stated:
“The second conclusion we have come to is that Mormon scholars and apologists (not all apologists are scholars) have, with varying degrees of success, answered most of the usual evangelical criticisms. Often these answers adequately diffuse particular (minor) criticisms. When the criticism has not been diffused the issue has usually been made much more complex.”
My opinion is that your criticisms have been diffused and you need to run along. I see nothing earthshaking or new, just the run of the meal standard old hashed out talking points. Now if you want to be earthshaking, show me and our 13 million members that the Book of Mormon is false.
Interesting that you’re more interested in peripheral sensationalism and completely avoid the scholarly stuff. Discussions about whether God sinned or not is all speculation and not doctrinal. Blanked statements that Joseph was a false prophet and cultist is lame, especially when you provide no proof, nor can you. Stating he was a adulterous man, and can find no witnesses to prove it is nothing more then being a accessory to false witnessing.
Regards, Richard.
grindael,
It made me re-evaluate what I should be doing. What I experienced with mormonism was long ago. Im way beyond the anger, I only have disgust with how you and the other mormon posters treat christians. You have no defense, have not given one good answer to all the DOCTRINAL POINTS I have posted on. Subgenious wants to argue the civil war. You want to rant about creeds and how we think God is dead. You don’t answer any of the points about Smith and all the evidence to his fraud.
What should you be doing? Reading the Book of Mormon again and quit faulting men. Even the Book of Mormon authors admitted they were not perfect and if what they wrote was weak or not perfect, they faulted themselves and their limitation as mere men. You claim you have intimate knowledge of the working of the Church because of your research into secret documents the Church or BYU has opened to you. I doubt very much you can show me anything new that has not already been debated about for the last 100 years, so please enlighten me with some new facts that the Church keeps secret.
Ranting about Creeds? Hardly, they are your Achilles. The Creeds are the Armor that protected Achilles, but nothing could protect his weakness and nothing I know of will save your Creeds.
Falcon- you quoted Tozer “What has God disclosed about Himself that the reverent reason can comprehend?” I suggest that the basis for this thread is as irreverent as can be imagined.
Aaron approaches the LDS view of God in such an irreverent tone, to be honest, it is very difficult not to have bad feelings towards him. That probably doesn’t matter to the critics here, but I am just being honest. But I must accept that he and others are functioning, as we all do, from our own set of circumstances and understanding and out of hopefully decent desires.
I think it fitting that you included that quote falcon, with its implication that the irreverent may not be able to comprehend God to the extent that He has revealed Himself. That is the point I have tried to make- that many here do not understand the restored gospel because of their approach of irreverence.
By the way- If the church is crumbling, why do you invest the time to worry about it? And why pick the LDS church to focus on instead of the plethora of other religions and faiths? You are obviously threatened in some way-otherwise you wouldn’t posses the venom you convey- it’s a simple matter of human nature.
Grindael- I empathize with your point of view and the difficulties you have experienced. My history, you might say, is the opposite. Mine was a background of loss and destruction, and the discovery of the Book of Mormon saved my life and changed everything about me for the better. Absolutely everything good in my life has come as a result of the conversion to Christ I experienced through the BOM.
In response to your question regarding the Godhead and the JS quotes from 1835. I think the brief quote with the Q&A is not obvious in its meaning as you posted it (I have heard it said many times that we are spiritual beings). Although I can see how you could come away with the interpretation you did, I submit that others are possible, including those that are in no way inconsistent with our doctrine. That may not be satisfying, but I think it is important to avoid coming to concrete conclusions before a person fully understands what was really being communicated.
I have read arguments pro and con regarding the first vision versions, etc. Again- although I understand your point, I do not think Joseph contradicted himself. Using the same strict criteria, Paul too contradicted himself when relating his conversion vision and should thus be discredited.
You said in your post that it wasn’t until you “got out from under the spell” or something to that affect that you could see the light. I am interested- when you discovered the things you did in church history that convinced you of “the truth,” were you also reading the BOM diligently? This may seem trite to you, but I believe, and it has been suggested by many a prophet that without balance in one’s study, a person is more vulnerable to being blinded. Elder Ballard said- it is good to study all viewpoints, but the Lord expects you to give Him His equal share.
Olsen Jim
Thank You, 🙂
Should Christians be reverent to false gods? Good question. As a Christian I wouldn’t be reverent to the goddess Artemis or the god Zeus. And no I won’t be reverent to a religious system that proclaims a false god that seeks to displace the living God. I won’t show reverence to a religious system that is a counterfeit and teaches sinful men that they can become gods. And no, their won’t be any reverence for a false prophet or his church. God has no time for false religious systems that mock and reject him and neither will I.
In First Timothy 1:3 the apostle Paul writes “….instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.” Paul further states in Second Timothy 3:13 “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” In Titus 1:9 “…holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.”
Mormonism is not only a false religion but it is a religion that seeks to deceive people as to what it really is. Mormonism is an attempted knock-off of the real thing. It’s a faulty product and the consumer needs to be warned about it.
I was just reading some entries on another blog written by Mormons working their way out of the system. We are duty bound to help those folks on their journey out and prevent others from being conned.
Falcon,
May I say you are one lucky guy, you found the truth that best suits you. May I say, that it is my duty to show as many good people as I can, the truth of what you deny. Interesting that we have different perspectives of what is truth. So for me, I choose the witness of the Holy Ghost.
R.
Well see here’s where you have a problem. I have the witness of the Holy Ghost also and it lines up with what is taught in the Bible. I’ve experienced my own personal Pentecost and the Holy Spirit witnessed through a prophetic word regarding the salvation God had extended to me; to someone who had been praying for me regarding (my being led to receive Christ as Savior). This prophetic word witnessed to who God is and what He has done for those who are willing to repent and receive Him in faith.
So within this experience was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, revelation through prophesy, answered prayer and, of course, a testimony as to who God is which aligned with God’s Word the Bible.
So I’ll rely on the everlasting One, living God and His Christ and His revelation to me.
Jim,
I do not see how reading the BOM (I had a lot of it memorized at one time) helps with anything. I learned much in the 1980’s and after about the BOM that show it is false just how absurd the claims are to the events that happened within the book. Then there are the revisions. But you know all this stuff. I am from NY. Buffalo to Auburn (Canandaigua Area) Smith’s old stomping grounds. Just reading the BOM you can tell Smith took the names from here. The land description, from here. Quick examples: Actual Place Name First: BOM Name Next. saint agathe, ogath/alma, valley of amla/angola,angola/antrium,antum/antioch,anti-anti/boaz,boaz/conner,comner,saint ephrem, hill ephriam/hellam,helam/jacobsburg,jacobugath – if you make a map of the BOM and superimpose it over NY/PENN the contrast is striking – this is by no means a complete list, there are many many more names. Some are place names from the indians, perverted by smith – others are from settlers. There is not one documented shred of archeological evidence to support the BOM and I defy any Mormon posters here to produce any. How can you have a battle with millions of people at cumorah and not one single shred of evidence that it took place. Not one. I’ve been there – more than once. You can’t do it. It’s like believing in the sword of king arthur, that he got it from the lady in the lake. No physical proof, but if you get a bunch of sincere people praying about it, you can bet they’ll get a “good feeling” and that is the only basis for 170 years that the BOM is God’s word. I stopped looking at the BOM from inside mormonism. It was like scales of darkness being lifted off my eyes. The building of a Temple like unto Solomons by Nephi a few years after they landed here with 25 people. Come on it took 180,000 people 7 years to build Solomons Temple. The problem with the Jaredite boat trip, that ones a doosey! You want to take it as fact with a warm fuzzy feeling, more power to ya!
R.
The burden is on YOU to show the BOM is TRUE. Why should I re-read it and waste my time when I KNOW it is false. YOU cant prove a thing. YOU cant do it archeologically, with DNA, population studies or just the impossibilities that the story of the Nephites and Jaredites poses from a real world perspective. You focus on personal issues and avoid the facts. The things I found out have come out from your own Mormon apologists like Dean Jesse in the last 25 years. Big problems with timelines and contradictions, suppression and changing of revelations, the list goes on and on. You, like subgenious, wont look at the facts, so you attack the person. Have at it, im not impressed at all.
One item, the “caractors” smith copied from the BOM plates are actually Latin tironian notes, gotten from the detroit manuscript. That is a story you cant refute. research it. the info is out there. the BOM is false, and there is plenty of evidence to prove it.
Martin,
“The LDS movement is a world leader in hiding its doctrines, even from its members.
I’d guess that the 70% of LDS who answered that Jesus did NOT sin are more influenced by orthodox Christianity than the teachings of Joseph Smith Junior, Brigham Young and the whole line of ‘prophets’…”
I’m not so sure of that. Its probably from more recent announcements from Salt Lake. I wouldn’t count much on outside influences. The LDS people have been making more efforts at mainstreaming, for example taking out more offensive portions from the temple ceremony. Like the ones making fun of non-lds sects. That 30% answered another way indicates that perhaps a small number don’t pay attention to Salt Lake, or think on their own.
Its possible that fundementalists christians might do a little bit more thinking on their own, as they don’t have someone to focus on for belief. Instead there is the bible, which it seems like that would produce only one religious body, but it has not for the vast majority of christian history.
Grin,
Like I pointed out earlier, your rhetoric is sound, but your faith is lacking. I wonder what the early Christians had before DNA, population studies, timeless contradiction (even in the Bible), suppression (until Luther and others came along), I guess FAITH was more important then the findings of archeologist and scientist came about to muddy the waters. Now you have to explain Ex Nihilo and six day of creation that most Scientist and Geologist would frown on. Like I stated, Creedal Achilles, shoot the arrow of truth and by hitting the bulls eye you show that man cannot tell God what, how and when, interesting.
Regards, Richard.
grindael,
Excellent job. If this were a boxing match they’d stop the fight.
falcon
Mike R,
“The Bible mentions that the closer we get to
Christ’s return that there would be a falling
away from spiritual truth and also morally.
That’s why the poll you referenced is’nt
surprising.”
But a higher percentage of Mormons over bible literalists answered that Christ was sinless. The LDS church has also been very, very active in taking a stand against gay marriage. I believe that many mormons see this as a sign that they are the most correct morally.
“This slide away from Biblical truth is also
seen in whole denominations changing their
stance on moral issues as well.The number
of “christians” condoning homosexuality as
an acceptable lifestyle is climbing,for
example.”
I think it depends upon what you mean by condoning. Some countries do public executions of openly gay individuals. Iran is an example. I believe that country still does cuting of fingers for people who are caught stealing. It was not so long ago that it was legal to discriminate against gays on housing and employment. In some states I think its still legal.
In the film “the Godmakers” the LDS treatment of gays is criticized, with the example of a young man that committed suicide. I asked a fundementalist Christian about that, and all he said was ‘he could have died of aids’. The amazing thing was that this poor boy probably died a virgin. They read some of his journal entries, and NONE of them indicated sexual activity at all. Just having low self-esteem, and mistreatment by other people.
PROBLEM? or problem? How big a issue is it? Holy Ghost is not the problem, it’s that you limited yourself to telling the HG what light and knowledge you are willing to accept, and I admire that you found and believe what light and truth you did. I also believe you experienced the Holy Ghost, why would you not accept that I have also. Interesting that you did not mention anything about the HG revealing to you that Mormonism was false. The true test is how we accept the Scriptures, does God not give us direction, James 1:5 ??
R.
Enki,
You could say that the Bible has produced every religion there ever was on the planet in some way or another.
Richard,
Why do you tie me to creeds? The major religions of the world have all added or subtracted in some way from/to the Bible. You think because you are locked into your strict mormon creeds, that I have to be locked into the many church creeds that have grown out of the christian movements in the past 2000 years?
Again, you don’t listen and instead attack me with something that has nothing to do with me.
I believe in the Bible. Period. I believe IT has all I need. I don’t need any MAN or any MAN’s interpretation of it to be saved. Jesus gave us all we need: believe on Him, call on his name, be baptized, and you will be saved. The holy ghost will guide you into all truth.
I’ve worshipped with many different church groups. I like the Salvation Army, but do not espouse some of their church beliefs. The Church of Jesus Christ is IN me. I carry it with me.
The reason Mormonism, Branch Davidism, Jehovah Witness, etc are so bad is that they are the ones with all the strange doctrines and rules they say you have to believe to be saved. You have more creeds than nicene ever produced.
Stop putting that crap on me. I have faith, in Jesus, not in Smith. The reason it took so long for the Bible to be verified was Technology. The reason the Book of Mormon is not verified is that no evidence exists. That is the difference. I place my FAITH in Jesus. You place yours in SMITH and his BOOK. Why do I need the BOM when I already believe in JESUS? What do i NEED it for? It is NOT ESSENTIAL. Your smugness and rudeness are revolting.
Again, I DON’T BELIEVE IN CREEDS. JUST THE WORD OF GOD THROUGH THE BIBLE. GOT IT? I HOPE SO.
I DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN THE BIBLE. YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN THE BOM WHICH YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOU HAVE JUST ATTACKED ME. YOU CANT EXPLAIN IT. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?
J. Olsen,
When I discovered that Smith was a liar, it threw into question his whole prophetic calling. Why would I diligently read the BOM when I had the evidence that it was a fraud. The only reason there is a BOM is to prove Smith a Prophet, so men can believe the rest of his doctrines.
When I shook that off, after many years I went back to the Bible. Started over. I realized that I still believed in Jesus, it was Smith who had jaded me on religion, and confused me. Taking James to heart, I prayed and accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour and knew I needed nothing but the Bible.
I will be with God because HE says I will. The problems for Mormons, is we live in an age where we CAN verify through science the claims of MEN. GOD made it so.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God loved the world so he gave his Son, that whoever believes in HIM WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and no one comes to the Father except through HIM. That is why by grace we are saved through faith.
The faith Richard talks about is far different from the simple one Jesus espoused in the Bible. He would have me believe in a book written by a man to prove something already proven. It is not needed. It is only needed so you can believe in Smith.
I don’t need to re-read the BOM. I have God’s word, and it’s teachings led me to the Christ and the Holy Spirit who works in me now. I have done all Jesus asked. He requires no more. That is why it is up to YOU to PROVE your case.
You can’t do it by attacking Churches and Creeds, if you attack me, you attack the BIBLE, for that is all I believe in. If you attack that, you attack yourself.
You have to PROVE the BOM because you say it is necessary for salvation. HOW? That is why Smith’s sinful God doctrine makes no sense. Why don’t YOU re-read the New Testament, without all the Smith mumbo-jumbo, and pray about that. I guarantee, God will witness to you that it is all you need.
sincerely,
grindael
Grindael,
“You could say that the Bible has produced every religion there ever was on the planet in some way or another.”
How do you figure?
Gotta jump in here guys. I was attempting to answer Aaron’s original question which was the basis of this thread. So I wanted to concentrate on one version of Smith’s god, you know, Bible god, BoM god, Kirtland god, Nauvoo god, King Follet god, you get the point. It’s too hard to answer the question because I can’t define Smith’s god. He’s a really slippery character, always changing, still changing. “It’s an everlasting covenant.” “No, it’s not”, etc. So I started reading Smithian source documents trying to track down dates, citations, etc. So I’m reading the Teachings of the Prophet JS, and BAM, stumble upon this false prophecy:
January 4, 1833, the Prophet wrote to Mr. N. E. Seaton, an editor of a newspaper, the following words of counsel
and warning concerning the state of the world and the purpose of the Lord in the restoration spoken of by the ancient
prophets.
And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass
away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the
history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this
generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded me to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to Him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, “Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come.”
Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant, and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled. Remember these things; call upon the Lord while He is near, and seek Him while He may be found, is the exhortation of your unworthy servant.
(Signed) JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.—DHC 1:312-316. http://scriptures.byu.edu/tpjs/STPJS.pdf
p. 13
Not that it’s a new false, prophecy, but I just wanted to bring it up again to scream, “Open your eyes. Joseph Smith is a false prophet by the standards of Deuteronomy 18! If you don’t repent and stop following him you are going to Hell for eternity. No kingdoms! Nothing! Hell!” Bottom line, this is what this ministry is all about: saving lost souls.
This is serious stuff here guys. Don’t place your eternal salvation in the hands of an obvious false prophet.
Then I said to myself, “Self, I don’t have time to do all this searching tonight, I know where to find the god of the KFD, so I’ll quickly breeze through the D&C, reading the summaries until I find the first instance of the god of infinite progression.”
One question: Have you actually read the D&C? It was written by a 9 year old. I about fell out of my chair laughing at D&C 8 and 9. Apparently Oliver Cowdery was asking Joseph, “Come on Joe, let me see those plates.” And Joe was like, “No. If you look at them you’ll die.”
“Well, can you ask God if I can see them?”
“OK, I’ll ask….God says you can’t look at these plates, but since you want the power to translate he’ll give it to you as long as you ask in faith.”
“SWEET, Joe. Do I get a cool rock?”
“No. God will tell you in your mind and in your heart.”
(D&C 8 summarized)
Apparently Oliver didn’t like that answer, began to get impatient, and was stealing Joes’ thunder by doing some “translation” of his own. Not wanting to be “out-propheted” Joe doles out the revelation smackdown in D&C 9.
“Oliver, God says to stop translating and keep writing whatever I tell you.”
“AWW, why did you tell on me, Joe?”
“Come on now Ollie, it aint that bad, God says that he has some other ancient records that he’ll let you translate once you finish writing down what I see on my rock.”
“Wow! Fer reals, Joe? Gosh yer swell!”
“Oops, wait. Just got another message from God. He says that it’s not expedient that you should translate those other records at this time…and he just took away the gift of translating that he promised you. Sorry Ollie. Stop murmering, or else I’ll make God put you in time out.”
I guess it’s true. The LORD giveth, and the LORD taketh away. I wonder whatever happened to those other ancient records? Maybe all of the archaeological work that has gone on at the Hill Cumorah for the last century and a half will eventually turn them up.
Go ahead guys, tell me how stupid I am and how much faith I lack:
“Didn’t you notice that God told Oliver to ask in faith and he would get an anwer? You don’t have enough faith to overide your common sense and God-given intelligence. All you want is evidence, evidence, evidence based upon reason, reason, reason. Well we don’t need evidence or reason. We’re super spiritual and the Holy Ghost told us that the D&C are true, despite how stupid and contradictory they are.”
I know that you are blind and deaf, but I’m praying that someone else will read this and a light will go on.
I’ll be in the repentance corner for being so sarcastic if anyone needs me. Thanks for the nod earlier Falcon. I gotta let loose sometimes, too.
I have asked the question many times, “How many lies can the “One true church” tell, before it is not the “one true church”, as much as this question may seem cynical, I was truly looking for an answer.
Well, as I am browsing the web tonight I came across the answer.
Apostle Dallin Oaks:
“My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors.”
– Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
Now thats commitment to a lie, bravo Dallin, bravo.
All I can say is WTF, or is it FTW?
I am still trying to figure out why the “One true church” has to use all eight of Lifton’s mind control techniques.
Very good liv4jc, so now that you make such a claim, would you deny that the Bible is prone to false prophecies?
Many LDS critics attempt to condemn Joseph Smith using a standard that would, if applied to Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Jonah, also condemn the Old Testament as a fraud.
The specific prophecies that are said to be false or incorrect by critics are typically based on hearsay or unreliable sources or are based on incorrect interpretations of what is said. There is no reliable evidence to say that Joseph Smith fails any sound test based on Deut. 18:22.
Regards, Richard.
Grin stated, The faith Richard talks about is far different from the simple one Jesus espoused in the Bible. He would have me believe in a book written by a man to prove something already proven. It is not needed. It is only needed so you can believe in Smith.
Interesting that Joseph never claimed once that anyone should believe in him, his response was always the same, READ, PONDER, STUDY, Pray and ask. Hmmm, if one has enough faith to try the promise in the BOM, then one would expect that from READING, PONDERING and seeking a answer through sincere prayer he or she would be rewarded with an answer.
Regards, R.
Grin stated, Again, I DON’T BELIEVE IN CREEDS. JUST THE WORD OF GOD THROUGH THE BIBLE. GOT IT? I HOPE SO.
I DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN THE BIBLE. YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN THE BOM WHICH YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOU HAVE JUST ATTACKED ME. YOU CANT EXPLAIN IT. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?
Nice, all capitals, must have hit a nerve. I will explain the BOM, what question is it you want answered? We can begin by answering the what, where and how. Interested?
R.
Richard
Where in the BOM does it say that God is an exalted man? Where in the BOM does it say that polygamy is an eternal principle necessary to salvation? Where in the BOM does it say that Baptism for dead people is necessary and essential to salvation?
You can take those one at a time. Feel free to dazzle me with your answers. If what the mormons say is true, and all these doctrines are true, why didn’t the Saviour teach them to any of the Nephites? These are essential doctrines of the church of Jesus, right? But not one mention of them in the BOM. In fact the BOM condemns polygamy. The reason they are not in the BOM is because JS hadn’t made them up yet.
Right. Praying and asking God to believe in smith is the same thing as him asking you to believe in him. It is a handy way to get around saying believe in me. You must believe in smith to believe his doctrines. Are you saying you dont believe in smith? I gotta admit Richard, that you duck and run more than anyone I’ve ever met. That was the reason for the caps, to get your attention. You get stuck in attack mode and maybe with so many posters here you get confused. I wanted you to focus on what I was asking, not what I was not asking.
This is what smith says in D&C21: “For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth…” This is the same as saying, believe in me, I am Jesus because I am just like God and anything I say you must believe as if God is standing here saying it.
Trying to compare the OT Prophets to smith is disingenuous. Jesus, affirmed the OT Prophets and so we have it on His authority that they were Prophets. But we have Jesus saying, don’t readily believe those that come after me claiming to be prophets because many false prophets will come. So we DO need to test Smith, and he fails miserably. So without the warm fuzzy test, again I ask, where is the BOM proof and why is the BOM necessary?