The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah

Brian David Mitchell, the man accused of kidnapping the young Mormon girl Elizabeth Smart in 2002, has spent most of the past six years in a mental health facility. Mr. Mitchell is now in the news again as prosecutors try to prove that he is mentally competent to stand trial. reports:

“After Brian David Mitchell’s arrest for the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart, investigators learned he also wrote a book of scripture. In ‘The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah,’ Mitchell seems to be saying he has powers greater than God’s.

“Psychiatric experts labeled such beliefs ‘bizarre’ and said they cause Mitchell significant distress and a decline in his ability to function in society. Their conclusion: he’s delusional and mentally ill.

“But in a pretrial motion prosecutors asked the judge to allow two expert witnesses ‘to demonstrate that Mitchell’s religious expression is not “bizarre” when viewed within context.'”

One of the expert witnesses that have been requested is BYU’s Daniel Peterson. According to the prosecutors, Dr. Peterson “will speak to the coherency of Mitchell’s writings.” Dr. Peterson reportedly told KSL “that he will testify about whether Mitchell wrote his scripture in an ‘ecstatic’ mental state or whether the writings are ‘the product of a deliberate, cool mind.'”

Brian David Mitchell was excommunicated from the LDS Church after The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah appeared on the scene. In an official statement offered on March 13, 2003 the LDS Church explained that Mr. Mitchell’s excommunication was “for activity promoting bizarre teachings and lifestyle far afield from the principles and doctrines of the Church.”

The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah is comprised of 27 pages. It contains 7 revelations as well as a “Statement of Intent and Purpose.” The prophecies in the book sound a lot like the writings found in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. The book also contains many quotes from the Book of Mormon and other LDS scriptures. Consider the following examples.

Hearken! Oh ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen together and open your ears, for it is I, the Lord God of all the earth, the creator of all things that speaketh unto you. Yea, even Jesus Christ speaking by the voice of my servant whom I have called and chosen to be a light and a covenant to the world in these last days. (The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, p. 1, 9 February 2002)

Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; …And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. (D&C 1:1, 4)

…the destroying angel shall pass them by and not slay them, and they shall have health in their navel and marrow in their bones, and they shall run and not be weary and walk and not faint, and they shall have great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures… (The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, p. 11, 27 February 2002)

…shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. (D&C 89:18-21)

…ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. (The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, p. 12, 27 February 2002 and Mormon 8:36)

Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, p. 14, 27 February 2002 and D&C 1:38)

The basic message of The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah is that the churches of this day are lacking in truth and authority; God has chosen and called a prophet (Mitchell) to be a light in this darkness, to gather people into the true and living church in its purified form — The Church of the Firstborn; and to call people to repentance and obedience to Christ. It speaks of the importance of the law of consecration and the Word of Wisdom, both doctrines introduced to the Church by Joseph Smith and valid in the LDS Church today. Mr. Mitchell talks respectfully about the Melchizedek priesthood, priesthood keys, and the new and everlasting covenant.

Of course, the book’s denunciation of modern leadership of the LDS Church as “false prophets who speak vain and foolish and lying words” including one who has “acted deceitfully…lifted up in the pride of his heart…” (The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, pp. 2-3, 9 February 2002) would not be tolerated by the Church; but it should sound familiar. Joseph Smith (as well as other LDS Prophets) denounced the leadership of Christian churches, accusing priests and reverends of deception and pride. In fact, much of the teachings in Mitchell’s book, and the polygamous aspirations of Brian David Mitchell (the book indicates he intended to take 49 wives — the same number of wives some historians attribute to Joseph Smith) mirror Joseph Smith and his teachings.

It will be interesting to see how Dr. Peterson testifies, if allowed, about The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah. Does he believe Mitchell’s revelations are coherent? Does he think the book was written while Mitchell was in an “‘ecstatic’ mental state”? Or are the writings “the product of a deliberate, cool mind”? Will Dr. Peterson’s testimony about The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah and its author have any correspondence to Joseph Smith and his writings? Stay tuned…

For more information see Yet Another Prophet: Brian David Mitchell .


Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.


About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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88 Responses to The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah

  1. falcon says:

    For an excellent overview and analysis of the type of “prophets” Mormonism seems to produce read “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith” by Jon Krakauer. The introduction on the book cover reads, “On July 24, 1984, a woman and her infant daughter were murdered by two brothers who believed they were ordered to kill by God. The roots of their crime lie deep in the history of an American religion practiced by millions…..Beginning with a meticulously researched account of this appalling double murder, Krakauer constructs a multilayered, bone-chilling narrative of messianic delusion, polygamy, savage violence, and unyielding faith.”
    I think a good portion of what he uncovered about the Lafferty boys could apply to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. There’s something in the DNA of Mormonism that breeds “prophets” of the false variety. Krakauer says it best: “But perhaps the greatest attraction of Mormonism was the promise that each follower would be granted an extraordinarily intimate relationship with God. Joseph taught and encouraged his adherents to receive personal communiques straight from the Lord. Divine revelation formed the bedrock of the religion…….The Lord routinely issued commandments to Joseph, continually revealing sacred principles that needed to be revised or changed outright”.
    There’s a real “me too” attitude in Mormonism that breeds all kinds of false prophets as they run up and down Happy Valley and the surrounding area proclaiming their revelations.
    “From its inception, the revelatory tradition in Mormonism engendered strife. The doctrine of modern, continuing revelation, begin by Joseph Smith and accepted by most groups claiming descent, leaves social order open to counterclaims that strike at the heart of ecclesiastical order. If one person may speak for God, why may not another? By claiming an ongoing dialogue with divinity, Joseph Smith opened the door to a social force he could barely control.” (Richard L Saunders)

  2. grindael says:

    The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Joseph Smith are a hodgepodge of “revelations” to Smith, dealing with whatever was asked or debated or alluded to within the hearing of said Smith. Mr. Smith had a terrible habit of biting off more than he could chew (the Book of Abraham), borrowing from manuscripts (the Detroit Manuscript) and wanting to be known as the biggest and baddest man of God on the planet. He was ripe to fall, and unlike Mitchell, he had a whole group of people to hide amongst, (while he pressed himself on young girls – I’m putting this nicely), deceived his wife, and made things up as he went merrily along. Fugate and the Kinderhook plates shows how shrewd, and gullible Smith could be. When they brought him the little brass plates, He told Fugate he would not translate them until they showed them to scholars of the day. They came back, (with no one knowing what the characters were) and THEN Joseph began his translation. Too bad his life got cut short or imagine the sequel to the BOM he would have written! The progression of Smith’s church can be seen in who he had around him at the time, Rigdon the most influential. The men in the moon comments because he heard it told in 1835 there were men in the moon. Others followed in JS footsteps too numerous to mention…Strang, JSIII, the numerous Polygamy schisms…yeah, all with a message, all promoting themselves, all false prophets and all so very far away from the true SIMPLE gospel of Jesus…

  3. falcon says:

    In his letter to the Galatians, the apostle Paul makes an extraordinary claim. He says (in Galatians 1:11-12)”For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it form man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” Now all kinds of “prophets” have emerged in the last 2,000 years claiming that, yes, they too have received direct revelation from God. Paul expands his claim of a direct revelation of Jesus Christ in chapter 2 when he writes: “Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. And it was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.”(Galatians 2:1-2)
    Now here’s the difference between a true NT prophet and all of the false prophets that have dotted the landscape. Paul had humility. He goes to the apostles and submits his revelation/gospel to them for correction and approval as needed. His was a true revelation and the true gospel as can be seen by the fact that the apostles could add nothing to what Paul had revealed to him.
    Joseph Smith’s gospel and revelation can be unraveled in an instant because it doesn’t reflect the gospel preached by the apostles in the first century of the church. All one has to do is do a quick page through of the Book of Acts and read the sermons recorded there. Can anyone find Mormonism in those sermons? No! Can the basic SLC Mormonism be found anywhere in the NT? No! Mormonism as presented by those sects that reflect early Mormon doctrines do reflect, at least in part, the true gospel of Jesus Christ. As Joseph Smith went into full ego mode he drifted further and further away from the gospel of Jesus Christ and spawned more false prophets.

  4. falcon says:

    Under the heading of “It doesn’t take much to be a SLC LDS prophet” I’ll offer the following. We’ve talked some about this in the past, but I thought it would be a good place to present it again if, for no other reason, I love to watch the Mormon posters spin. It gives me delight to be able to observe their convoluted thinking process.
    More than a hundred years ago, The LDS church outlawed the practice of polygamy. Despite its current ban on polygamy, the LDS church promotes polygamy. This is done mainly on behalf of the dead, using living Mormons as proxies. Using this ritual, the LDS temple system validates the plural marriages of dead ex-Mormon polygamists through its marriage sealing program.
    Rulon Clark Allred, who was excommunicated from the LDS church in 1940 for practicing polygamy and who was the prophet/leader for the Mormon Apostolic United Brethren, has been sealed by proxy to five of his wives. Allred met an untimely death when he was killed on the orders of Ervil LeBarron, the head of a rival polygamous group. I guess because LeBarron was also a prophet and despite the fact that he was behind the murder of Allred, he’s also being treated to the sealing process by the SLC LDS church. He was sealed to a woman whom he was divorced from and also has sealings pending for three other women.
    I guess being a prophet carries a lot of weight in the wonderful wacky world of SLC LDS doctrine and practice. I don’t get it though because I thought murder was a real no no regarding Mormon eternal rewards. But if you can claim to be a prophet even though you’re excommunicated, you can make a trip to the Celestial Kingdom with your several goddess wives and procreate into eternity. This is all very consistent with Mormon logic and reasoning.

  5. grindael says:

    Great Comments Falcon!
    Jesus himself sent Paul to a man of the church – not to ordain him an apostle, not to make him a high priest after the order of Melchezedek, not to make him a seer or a revelator, nor a prophet – he (Ananias) simply laid hands on him to heal him of his blindness and receive the Holy Spirit and he was baptized. Paul began preaching Jesus right then and there. Then he went to Jerusalem and his life was so threatened that they sent him to Tarsus, and then after (3) years he went to Jerusalem and met with Peter and saw James the Lord’s brother. It was fourteen years after the (3) years that he went to Jerusalem again, and what did they worry about, THE POOR! IT is the same as when the apostles came to Jesus and said they saw a man “who is not one of us” casting out demons in his name. Did Jesus get resentful that he was not ordained in the priesthood? Did he worry that he had no authority but the name of Jesus? He simply said to leave him alone because whoever is not against us is for us… The simple fact that the man knew who Jesus was, and used his name speaks volumes about the simplicity of the true gospel of Jesus. No mumbo jumbo, no secret ceremonies, no blood atonement oaths, no godhood mysteries, simply “I am God, your mediator, I will die for you, call on Me and YOU WILL BE SAVED BY MY GRACE, It is sufficient for you, for Paul, for the Gentiles, the Jews, the whole world. Thanks again falcon… You brought to mind how simple and beautiful the gospel is, and what a difference between that and the mad mad mad mad mad mysteries of mormonism….

  6. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Falcon said, “There’s a real “me too” attitude in Mormonism that breeds all kinds of false prophets”. Of course it’s a “me too” attitude, that is what the gospel is all about. For example,

    “…would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” was that Joseph or Brigham? No, but the great law giver himself. Num 11:29 TALK ABOUT BREEDING GROUND! Again, this mrm group does not believe the Bible. If Moses were here preaching this gospel, Falcon would label him a breeder of false prophets.

    Can Falcon and others honestly say they believe the Bible and reject continuous revelation? I mean the entire books of the OT and NT are, in themselves, books of continuous revelation. Ah, but you say they may be continuous revelation, but they do not contradict themselves, right?

    “And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.”…”as the Lord commanded Moses” Number 31. This is the same Moses that just gave the command to not Kill!

    Every accusation you throw at Smith, destroys a biblical prophet like Moses. The very lifeblood of any prophet is continuous revelation. On what grounds could Moses stand without an appeal to continuous revelation? Is my point that Biblical prophets were not true prophets? No. But clearly you do not and would not believe them if they were sent today.

    How about Jesus? He gave the law. Yet he has no reservations in telling the people to disregard it. “It has been said by them of old…but I say unto you…” Why would he give contradictory laws and on what principle (if continuous revelation is false) could He justify changing the law.

    Again, this group does not believe the teachings of the Bible.

  7. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Interesting reference to Paul’s revelation since the first order of business on Mormon coffee would be to reject any such vision!

    Saul of Tarsus is very much like this group here. Putting down the cause of this heretical group and championing the cause of orthodoxy. The difference being he was a man who believed in revelation. “I am Jesus whom thou persecutests”. Those words of divine communication were enough to change his course. Not so here! Paul would be rejected as deranged, blasphemous, a false prophet breeder, etc. Again, the Bible could never happen on MRM soil because it is a different gospel being preached.

  8. grindael says:

    In defense of falcon I would say this, that according to your own words “would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets” that is EXACTLY what Mitchell was claiming in accordance with his MORMON faith. His criteria, as Sharon pointed out was in line with what Joseph did, and the Smithians rejected him out of hand. This is what Christians are doing in relation to Smith. His credentials for being a prophet DONT ADD UP. Paul received a vision from the Lord Jesus and then submitted himself to the establishted authority already there. He taught the gospel, THEN went and interviewed with the apostles with fear that he had NOT run the race correctly. But what he taught was IN LINE with what had been taught by the ONLY standard, Jesus. Smith’s teaching were as out of whack in 1830 as Mitchell’s are to the Smithians today. Mitchell fails the test of the Bible, WHICH WE HAVE NOW, hence we need no more Prohpets who say it is all wrong, we need to start over. Paul was not starting over, declaring Peter and the others wrong, he was in total agreement with their teachings that came from the Lord himself. I have seen personal revelation work in Christianity today. There is a live vibrant Church flourishing in the world, with Jesus the chief cornerstone of it that has never been ground down by apostasy. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets. Smith has been proved a false prophet more than once. He was sly enough to fool some of the very elect as Christ prophesied, but The True Church of Christ will never fail. Paul and the Jerusalem Church were concerned about the poor, a trait sadly lacking in Smith’s church today. They would rather build billion dollar malls and spend billions on useless temples and other projects out of line with Jesus Teachings. There will be one Temple rebuilt, to be the home of the ONE great HIGH PRIEST, Jesus. How much good could the Smithians do selling their assets and helping the poor! Nuff said.

  9. falcon says:

    Well, where do I start this morning?

    Numbers 11:29 is a rhetorical question. I’ll let our Mormon friends figure out what that means.

    Anyone who’s been around here for any amount of time knows that I’m all in favor of continuous revelation. In fact I don’t know of anyone on Mormon Coffee who isn’t in favor of continuous revelation. I’m not in favor of continuous revelation that doesn’t line-up with the Word of God however. I’m also not in favor of adding to the cannon of written Scripture, nor do I think any of the Christian posters here are in favor of that. Anyone who isn’t hearing from God needs to consider whether or not they are born again as is defined in John 3:3-21.
    Ephesians 4:11 gives a list of the five fold ministry of the Holy Spirit and Ephesians 4:12 gives the reason for the five fold ministry of the Holy Spirit. I believe the Bible and fully embrace each and every ministry mentioned in Ephesians 4:11. First Corinthians 12 and 14 lists the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and instructions as to there use in the Body of Christ. First Corinthians 13 instructs believers as to what their attitude should be in Christ. Again, since I believe the Bible, I believe these Gifts of the Holy Spirit are in operation today within the Mystical Body of Christ.
    Now, one of the responsibilities of a person who is born again by the Spirit of God, is to discern the difference between true and false prophets; those who claim to be foretelling or speaking forth the Word of God. Mormons prophets are false prophets. Not only do they have a miserable record of foretelling the future, but their speaking forth on matters of God are in total error. If the Mormon people were born again by the Spirit of God they would be able to discern this quite plainly. Since they aren’t, they are regularly “treated” to false prophecies and false knowledge concerning the things of God and they accept it.
    The solution for Mormons, of course, is to reject their false prophets.

  10. falcon says:

    Mormonism started with a false prophet with a false gospel and it has become a breeding ground for more false prophets promoting increasingly more bizarre and false prophecies, teachings, doctrines and practices. Joseph Smith passed on a legacy to the SLC LDS and their FLDS cousins that produces “prophets” like Brigham Young and David Brian Mitchell. Young was as far off the bubble as those who have followed him.
    Anyone can claim to be a prophet. The test however is if they can stand-up to scrutiny. We have the prophet Wilford Woodruff claiming he spoke with the spirits of the dead signers of the Declaration of Independence. Mormons swallow this sort of nonsense whole without considering a couple of things. Number one, was this guy totally nuts? Two, was he engaged in fanciful flights of imagination or was he conjuring up spirits of the dead that claimed to be the Signers? If the latter, he was having himself a full-out seance; being involved in nacromancy which the Bible forbids. Mormons, blinded by a spirit of deception, jump whole hog into this thinking they’re involved in something spiritual when in reality it’s spiritism.
    Having accepted as fact that the Mormon church is “true”, Mormons are now stuck with accepting anything and everything associated with the organization, past and present.
    The antidote of course is to come to the One, true and everlasting God.

  11. falcon says:

    Now if someone tells me that their way of telling if something is from God or not is based on a feeling they get I can see where they will have trouble determining who is a true or false prophet. Yea I know, this is a special type of feeling that folks only get when God is speaking to them. I don’t discount our human emotions in any endeavor, but when it comes to determining who is or isn’t a prophet I’d much rather depend on what that prophet does and says than on the subjective feelings I get.
    This is the heart of the matter in Mormonism. Having given themselves over to the idea that their feelings are indicative of God speaking to them and using those feelings as a test for truth is a spiritual landmine. It’s a tough thing to get over this thought that maybe our “spiritual” feelings aren’t really God speaking to us or indicative of the presents of the Spirit. Sometimes the things God tells me makes me feel fairly miserable. That’s particularly so in the case of conviction of sin.
    The associated problem of course is that once a Mormon accepts the idea that the Mormon church is true, it’s pretty much lights out as far as any type of discernment regarding anything in Mormonism. If a Mormon really wants to hear from God I would suggest that first of all they get in touch with the real God and go from there.

  12. Kevin says:

    Just to point out, the Mormons have 15 prophets. You are asked as a member to sustain all the quorum of the 12 and the 1st presidency as prophets, seers, and revelators.

    There is a mormon children’s song called follow the prophet or is it profit…

    “Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
    Follow the prophet; don’t go astray.
    Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
    Follow the prophet he knows the way”

    The problem is they cannot figure out which one to follow (not that it matters) because they are so willing to latch on to the one who gives the the best “feeling” of the day.

    I think I might still have some beach front property just west of the sea of tranquility for sale, any takers?

  13. liv4jc says:

    Grindael, great defense of Paul.

    DOTF, have you actually read the Bible or just listened to what your teachers have said? Paul was persecuting the Christian church from the standpoint of defending Judaism against what he believed was an assault on God from people who were destroying Judaism by worshiping a false messiah. But Paul did not have revelations that contradicted God’s word in the OT, he had revelations that explained the person of Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the OT. Have you not read Acts 17:1-3

    Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”

    Jesus Christ is everywhere in the OT, and Paul realized it when his eyes were opened to the truth. Smithians seem to believe that the OT is incompatible with NT revelation.

    And a different gospel being preached? Are you serious? We preach the same gospel Paul preached, which is the same gospel the other apostles preached, which is the same gospel Jesus taught, which if you read Paul’s writings, especially Romans 4, has always been salvation-by grace-through-faith. The gospel we preach comes directly from the OT and NT since we rely only on the Bible. It is the Smithians who deny the sufficiency of the Bible, have revelations that contradict it, and therefore preach a different gospel. This is why we reject Smith’s revelations.

    As Grindael pointed out, Paul makes it very clear in Galatians that a gospel of works is in direct contradiction to Jesus’ teaching of salvation by grace.

    So, your charge that we would reject Paul’s revelation is ridiculous, because we use Paul’s revelations to show you your error

  14. grindael says:

    When I was a Mormon, I never understood all the fuss about NEW REVELATIONS the clergy of the day had. It took 13 years to realize that my perceptions were skewed by the teachings reiterated here by our Mormon friends. What they teach about WORKS is TECHNICALLY CORRECT, but the works flow out of the saving grace we have faith in by our acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and GOD. It is SIMPLE, as the gospel of Jesus has been from the beginning. I see now why the Protestants from the 15th Century on had problems with the Catholic Church, because they got caught up in dogma, and got away from Jesus as the center of their lives. It is so with every major religion. That is where the concepts of Crusade and Jihad come from, an obsession with trying to force works on folks that do not have a grasp on the saving grace of God. That is why it is so wrong for those in Salt Lake to assign front seats to those that pay more in donations or the churches from the 1800’s that William Booth and others objected to for the same practices of favoritism. We are all equal in the site of God by the Grace of God. That is why John was so against the Gnostics who introduced teachings contrary to the simple gospel of Jesus, and many Mormons have tried to show parallels to the works of Smith and others. Put it all away and accept Jesus and his Love will manifest itself in your soul and in your life. The works will flow from that and you will give all you can. Petty rules and forced tithing will never compare to the Grace of Our Lord…

  15. Kevin says:

    Grindael said, “I see now why the Protestants from the 15th Century on had problems with the Catholic Church, because they got caught up in dogma, and got away from Jesus as the center of their lives”

    Yes, I think you are right. Take for instance Oaks talk from the Sat. PM session. It was all about “The Law” their own dogma. Mormons claim to be the church of Jesus Christ but he is rarely seen in reflection of the members or dogma. As a matter of fact you hear more about JS the Jesus any day of the week, well except Christmas… maybe.

    But back to Oaks, he is all about Dogma, not hard to believe since he is a lawyer, and wants you to believe that love for you children should be conditional. The whole thing is about “conditional love”. Placing conditions (judgement) on someone and then withholding love or attention just to make a point. How sick is this.

    Think about Mark 11:25

    Sure it sucks when a loved one makes a decision we don’t agree with, but in their time of need we should be their for them, not shun them away or with hold gifts like shelter and food.

    The abused create abusers. A child who is spanked, is more likely to beat their children; stop the cycle.

  16. DefenderOfTheFaith says:


    I am glad you started with continuous revelation. You may say that you are in favor of continuous revelation but only if it agrees with what is written. This is not Biblical.

    My point is you must reject Moses and Jesus if this is your criteria. I am curious how you would respond to Moses’ command to slay the Midianites. If you lived in his day, you would have to reject him on the basis that his current command is in direct contradiction to the written word. How about Jesus? If you were listening to his sermon and He said “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies…” what is your response. Well it is contrary to the written law and He has no qualms pointing that out. So you would have to reject it.

    A closed cannon is another mystery to me. Closed cannon according to whom? Where is the command to close it. Even the Catholics are still steaming that Protestants have the gall to remove books of scripture that they cannonized. How can one believe in continuous revelation and simultaneously yet say that revelation is real but not written revelation?

    I do not deny that continuous revelation opens the door for potential imposters. Nevertheless, imposter #1 is to say it doesn’t exist at all.

  17. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    We are speaknig the same words, but I fear, a different language. I don’t believe that MRM believes in revelation, certainly not cannonized revelation in our day. But for sake of argument, let’s say they do actually believe in continuous revelation. Would it be safe to say that this crowd believes in “conditional revelation” In other words, if it does not agree with the written word, then it must be a false revelation?

  18. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Falcon said,

    “Having given themselves over to the idea that their feelings are indicative of God speaking to them and using those feelings as a test for truth is a spiritual landmine”

    Just like the NT people who were “pricked in their hearts” and asked Peter and fellow apostles “men and brethren what shall we do”. If Falcon is speaking apostolic doctrine then why didn’t Peter say, “Be careful, we don’t want you to go by this feeling. You need to test our words and see if this is compatible with the written word. This is a spiritual landmine and it is essential we teach you correct doctrine. Lean on the written word and once you have proven us, come back and we will tell you what to do.”

    Again, this group doesn’t believe in preaching and teaching like true apostles do. Peter said repent and be baptized. No need for review or comparison. Completely different gospel than the one Falcon is preaching. Talk about a spiritual landmine!

  19. falcon says:

    The Bible is the rule book. It sets the standard for what is truth and what is not truth. All revelation must be compared to the sacred scriptures as given to us by God’s prophets and apostles through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Anything that does not agree with God’s Word is the product of the antichrist and a false spirit. Emotions are not a test of truth. Emotions are transient and can be caused by any number of things. Is there such a thing as being convicted by the Holy Spirit? Yes. Is all guilt the result of being convicted by the Holy Spirit? No. People can lay guilt trips on others and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Is there such a thing as joy and peace as a result of God moving in our lives? Yes. Can we have joy and peace and contentment that have nothing to do with God? Yes.
    To know the difference is the result of discernment and a certain amount of maturity. Not knowing that Joseph Smith and Mormonism are false is the result of not knowing who God is. Having replaced God with a man and having changed the gospel message of Jesus Christ with a works righteousness program is the height of arrogance and human pride.

  20. grindael says:

    “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”1John4:1

    If we were to go by DOF we would have prophets coming out of our ears…oh yeah..the Smithians do… Here we see that we are to test the spirits…against what? Paul warned us…

    “For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.”Acts20:29

    In Eph4:14, Paul says that a sure sign of spiritual immaturity is “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.”

    So we know that false prophets came among the church and would continue to do so. But here is the criteria for determining who is false, and yes, and that was the purpose for the apostles giving us a record, so we would know how to judge those coming false prophets and teachers:

    Heb.13:8 says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

    Peter also offered this warning in 2 Pet2:1, “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.”

    The Smithians have CHANGED who Jesus is. Smith and David Koresh, and Jim Jones, and all the Pupit Pimps today do this to make themselves special, to put themselves next to God, being the “only ticket” to heaven through their revealed doctrines…

    “They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.” 1John4:5-6

    Do as Jesus advises:

    “Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew15:14

  21. grindael says:

    What is so important to realize here, is that you can have “revelation” in the Church, sufficient for our needs without all the hocus pocus. Jesus made the gospel SIMPLE just for this reason.

    John is an apostle; I am a layman. John personally walked with Jesus. By inspiration, he wrote words of Scripture. To agree with the apostles is to agree with Scripture. Eph.2:20 says the church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.”

    NOT as the Smithians say, that it needed to be re-built, for I believe Jesus when he said “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”Matt16:18

    NOT as the Smithians say, that it would fall and need to be restored, but that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. It is denying the power of God to say that He said he would build it and it would stand, then in direct contradiction it would fall. Jesus the same…

    John says, “Test the spirits whether they are of God.” The Greek word translated “test” is dokimaz[ma]o, a term for testing people in HIGH OFFICE. The verb is in the present tense– the believer is to continually test the spirits.

    Yes, DOF, in all cases and at all times. Men are human. Men fall. Smithians act as if those prophets are incapable of error, then when they teach doctrines completely at odds with revealed word, (the Bible) 1. ignore it 2. make excuses 3. deny it was taught. 4. lie about it. 5. hide it 6. twist the scriptures to make it seem to fit into Christ’s teachings.

    This is classic CULT behaviour. How do we know Jim Jones was not a prophet? The answer seems simple because of his spectacular demise. Same with Koresh. Marshall Applewhite, William Kamm, Bennie Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, the list goes on and on..

    Isaiah’s words apply perfectly here: “To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Isa8:20

  22. grindael says:

    I want to address another Smithian conclusion. The fruits. How can Smithians be false, when we do so much good?

    In Matthew (7:13-23)we read this: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it. Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.”

    But, what are these fruits? One must be very careful here, for false prophets are not without religious activities. A false prophet is often accompanied by deceptive signs and by seeming wonders. Some of these are suggested in Matthew 7:22: “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?”’

    We should expect false prophets to engage in acts of kindness and charity. We should expect them to perform deeds which suggest miraculous power. And we should expect that these deeds be performed under the pretext of being done by God’s power and to His glory. Also, that they could sustain a following by duping it’s members into believing it is a good system, when at it’s core it is rotten.

    “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

    (1) The first category of the fruits of the false prophet is their doctrine. False prophets speak from their own delusion, not by divine command (Jeremiah 23:16,21,25; Ezekiel 13:2).They do not proclaim or defend God’s word, but deny it (Jeremiah 23:17). In particular they deny unpleasant subjects such as impending judgment (Jeremiah6:14,28:17)

  23. grindael says:

    (cont.) Ezekiel 13:10). They offer temporary and partial relief to pressing problems (Jeremiah 8:11). Mainly, they tell people precisely what they want to hear, and hide difficult teachings until the convert is embedded in the church (1 Kings 22:8, 13; 2 Timothy 4:3-4). Concerning the way of salvation they deny the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (one god among many) and they reject the work of Christ on the cross (2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:2-3). He is not unique to Smithians, there are many worlds and many Christs…
    (2) The second category of the fruits of the false prophets is the effect of their teaching in the lives of men. Invariably it leads to a rejection of God’s word, a rejection of biblical authority, a division among the saints (Jeremiah 23:2,14) and a life of sensuality (2 Peter 2:2). They attempt to lead men away from the truth of the gospel (Acts 13:8), and to deceive genuine Christians with false doctrine (Mark 13:22). This is also evident from the pastoral epistles (1 and 2Timothy and Titus) where Paul speaks of the need of sound or healthy doctrine (1 Tim. 4:6; 2 Tim. 4:3; Tit. 1:9; 2:1).
    (3) Finally, there is the fruit of the false teachers as evidenced in their own moral character. They are easily distinguished by their pride (2 Peter 2:10), their greed (Jeremiah 8:10; Titus 1:11; 2 Peter 2:3,14) and immorality (Josephs appetite for young women) (Jeremiah 23:11,14; 2 Peter 2:14). They are men dominated by the flesh (2 Peter 2:10,12; 3:3). They prey upon the weak and the guilt-ridden (2 Timothy 3:6-7; 2 Peter 2:14,13). While they profess to know God, by their deeds they deny Him (Matthew 7:22-23; 2 Timothy 3:5; Titus 1:16). While they delight in authority, they refuse to submit to it (2 Peter 2:10). Smith was fanatical about HIS authority. Every one since has acted the same way.
    It is hard to see the error of something from the inside. I know, I spent 13 years inside of Smith’s Church. Pray about SMITH. Ask God. Test the spirits.

  24. falcon says:

    What Mormons don’t seem to understand is that they don’t get to decide what orthodox Christianity is…the doctrine and the cannon of Scripture. That’s been taken care of. Now if Mormons want to determine what Mormonism is, that’s their business. I suppose I could decide what Mormonism is, the doctrines and cannon of Scripture. Why not? Mormons have tended to do a pretty miserable job of defining their own cannon of scripture, doctrines and practices so I think I could take a stab at it (see the BoA, polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, the intro to the BoM, the BoM with it’s thousands of changes etc. for a more complete explanation).
    Mormonism, the Salt Lake City version, doesn’t even make the cut among Mormon sects (see FLDS, Community of Christ, Church of Christ-Temple Lot). SLC Mormonism would even get the boot by these other Mormon groups.
    Modern Christian revelation comes into play when those who are truly born again by the Spirit of God come to a deeper personal understanding of God’s Word the Bible and a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. SLC Mormons don’t get this. Their devotion is to a man and an organization.
    In the early 80s Bruce McConkie preached a sermon at BYU. What precipitated this event was a problem on campus. That problem? Mormon students were meeting in the dorms praying “for a special relationship with Jesus.” That set off alarm bells within Mormon Church hierarchy and McConkie was dispatched to put an end to the practice. One of the things McConkie wanted to make clear to the students was that they should not worship Jesus. “We do not worship Jesus” he said. Neither were the students to pray to or through Jesus. Students were not to strive for a “special and personal relationship with Christ.” McConkie concluded that the devil may be behind the drive to get people to have a personal relationship with Christ.
    Man it is really a difficult task to be able to figure out if Mormonism is a cult trying to masquerade as Christianity isn’t it?

  25. falcon says:

    Speaking of Bruce McConkie, he abhorred the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. He mocked it. “We have all listened to sermons by the great revivalists and self-appointed prophets of the various radio and television ministries. Whatever the subjects of their sermons may be, they always end with an invitation and a plea for people to come forward and confess the Lord Jesus and receive the cleansing power of the blood.”
    McConkie said television broadcasts show stadiums filled with people while thousands go forward to make their confessions and to become born again Christians-“To be saved with all they suppose this includes.” In fact, McConkie recounted that while driving his car he listened to a radio preacher exhort people to touch the radio and say, “Lord Jesus, I believe.” McConkie, tongue-in-cheek, said:
    “Unfortunately I did not accept this generous invitation to gain instant salvation; and so I suppose my opportunity is lost forever.” McConkie died fifteen months later.

    (attribution to Jim Spencer and Through the Maze ministries 10/09 newsletter. Jim, a former Mormon elder, is a tireless worker in bringing Mormons to a knowledge of the saving grace of Jesus Christ)

  26. grindael says:

    I want to clarify falcons comments a little, because it was this spirit in the Church that made me question and leave it in 1983.

    2 Nephi 25:29 states:
    And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.
    This seems clearcut and to the point; however, this was Joseph Smith’s early teaching, and it was supplanted in the church, just like the BOM denounced polygamy, and Smith changed that too.

    In Mormon Doctrine, he says: “Prayers of the saints are expected to conform to a prescribed standard of divine excellence…They are to be addressed to the Father; should always be made in the name of Jesus Christ; …” ( p. 581).

    Again, here we see the belittlement of Jesus, who IS GOD. Here is the evidence from the bible:

    “Then the man said: “Lord, I believe,” and he worshipped Him [Christ]. ” John 9:38

    Hebrew 1:6 declares: “…Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

    So McConkies statement is just a natural progression of Smithian doctrine, and one of the ways they CHANGED Christ.

    The Exact quote: “We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well about what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense – the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God first, the Creator.”
    This again, is Cult in every sense of the word.
    This is what happens when men are accepted as Apostles and Prophets just by being ordained as such….

  27. Enki says:

    Hello All,
    I am embarrassed to admit that I have received a ‘revelation’ myself. Its very brief, actually about a 1/2 a page. Its pretty scary, because it arrived after I officially knew the LDS church is incorrect. I still have it stashed away, not that it was correct, but just to remind myself of how easily the human mind can manufacture this stuff.

    Out of curiousity, I did a little research to see if any of it could be true at all. To my suprise, it actually might work in the larger ‘restoration movement’ spectrum of LDS churches. I found a really interesting article from one of the ‘apostate’ churches about the comming forth of the sealed portions of the BOM. I won’t bother going into details, its too personal, but it actually fit.

    The unpresedented part was that for the first time the plates would be presented to the world at large for anyone to examine. Also limited scientific tests could be conducted. The sword of laban would be visible. (and also to protect the book) Along with the liohona. I was given some insight as to the contents of the remainder, it would be very controversial indeed.
    I honestly don’t know what I would do if the plates physically appeared in my home. Nah…couldn’t happen.

  28. grindael,

    Thanks for your posts above, especially the “guided tour” of false prophets in Scripture.

    I take heart that you describe the Gospel of Christ as “simple”.

    I’d say that this “simple” message is that we stop believing in ourselves and start believing in Christ. However, “simple” doesn’t equate to “easy”, because I find it the hardest thing to do to ignore my own achievements and (limited) abilities, so that I rely on Christ’s alone.

    It would be much easier for me to say that I have contributed to my salvation by doing this or that (whilst conveniently forgetting the harm I have caused through my own sin). However, if I did so, then I would have just cause to consider myself “above” my unbelieving neighbours. Again, its hard to consider myself as being “at their level”, which I am.

    Your posts suggest a revulsion of the elitism that accompanies a works-based religion. Perhaps, like me, you might be a “catholic” (small “c”, also see the Nicene Creed) in the sense that we subscribe to a Gospel that places no pre-conditions on anyone who calls on the name of the Lord.

    I wonder what you think?

  29. Sharon commented

    In an official statement offered on March 13, 2003 the LDS Church explained that Mr. Mitchell’s excommunication was “for activity promoting bizarre teachings and lifestyle far afield from the principles and doctrines of the Church.”

    That’s the funniest thing I heard all week, especially when we consider the teachings and lifestyle of Joseph Smith Junior.

    …wait. It’s not a joke?

  30. falcon says:

    I just want to point out that the mode of coming to Christ is really unimportant. Sometimes people think they have to have some kind of emotional experience in order for their conversion to be real. The idea of coming forward in a meeting, praying the sinners prayer, or even finding faith in Christ by watching a TV preacher are all immaterial to the process. The Bible clearly teaches us that we are to be born again by the Spirit of God. That process of spiritual regeneration comes when someone believes that Jesus is God-the qualified Savior-and applies His sacrifice on the cross to their sins. In technical terms this is called “justification”. We are declared righteous by our faith in what Jesus did for us. Having been justified by the Blood of Jesus we respond to God’s mercy and love by cooperating with the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification, conforming our behavior to God’s ideal.
    The discouragement of BYU students in the early 80s from forming a personal relationship with Jesus Christ tells us all we need to know about Mormonism. Jesus was being rejected and displaced from His rightful place and BYU students were denied knowing Him as He desires to be known. Interesting religion that discourages folks from coming to Christ and forming a personal relationship with Him. Whose interest does that serve?

  31. grindael says:

    The whole concept that Smith incorporated into his religion was one of self=aggradanizement through works. Having joined the Smithians at 13, I had all the enthusiam for the itellectual knowledge that the story of a boy not much older than myself at the time, struggling with concepts of God, had overcome and been answered. It brought hope to my starving soul.
    The problem was living up to the concepts of that system that loomed so large over my young adulthood. I was regaled with the stories of Joseph Smith. The prophets were strict men whose word was law. Church was dry and boring, but tolerated by me in my thrist for knowledge.
    It was my ultimate downfall in the church, for I dug too deep, I knew too much to reconcile what I knew in my heart with what I knew in my head.
    BYU and the contacts I made there with learned scholars after my Mission sealed my fate. I could no longer lie to myself that Joseph was not what he was portrayed to be.
    I cut Smith’s church out of my life, but wandered for a long time, jaded and unsure of who to believe. I had my own real spiritual battle with life, and it took a long time for me to find comfort in the simple gospel of Jesus revealed in the Bible. My brother was a Christian Preacher, and I did not speak to him for years and years. I isolated myself from family, and only came back years later, humbled and grateful that I had found my own way to Christ. I claim no Church, but have spent many years with the Salvation Army, helping, worsippping there, and redeeming my life. I renewed my interest in Smith and his Church in the hopes that someway, somehow I might make a difference to someone caught in the same mistake I went through.
    It is tough going. I know what mormons think, and how they try to defend the indefensible. But the Grace of Christ is sufficient for me, and perhaps I will finish the race and have made a difference, certainly I know I am saved through his love.

  32. liv4jc says:

    grindael, thank you for your passionate posts. It is obvious that your passion comes from being deceived for many years, righteous anger at the deception that continues, and your desire to lead others out of bondage.

    DOTF, once again, a follower of Smith is reduced to claiming Jesus’ words in the NT contradict His words in the OT. I don’t have time for a long post because I have to run off to work, but hopefully I will have some time later this evening to give some scripture references.

    The OT never said, “Love you neighbors and hate your enemies.” The command is to “love your neighbor as yourself” (see Leviticus and Deuteronomy 19, I believe, for context). Remember in Luke 10:25-37 when the scribe came to Jesus asking what the greatest commandment was? After Jesus tells him the secod greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself, the scripture says, “and wishing to justifiy himself he asked, ‘and who is my neighbor’?” This is where we get the story of the good Samaritan. The scribes and Pharisees were hardhearted, only respected each other, and greeted each other with the term “neighbor” so they wouldn’t break this commandment.

    What is perceived as a contradiction of the OT is God’s commands to destroy Israel’s neighbors. But God used Israel to punish those nations for their sin, and vice versa. But this does not deal with personal relationships and mercy. Jesus’ words are meant to make us realize how mercifully God deals with the whole world, even those who He blesses with life even though they do evil and blaspheme. God shows special mercy and grace to His elect, who without the covering of Christ’s blood would be doomed to Hell with the rest of humanity who hate God. So we should be merciful to our enemies because God is merciful to us (Matthew 5:7)

  33. falcon says:

    The technique of “I prayed about it and got this feeling so I know it was the voice of God” is pretty common in religious circles. The unfortunate thing is that this approach can be very faulty and lead folks to conclusions that are not consistent with the Word of God. There’s this “Christian” cult in New Mexico that was featured on a National Geographic special. They interviewed one of the teenage girls who said that God told her she should become naked before the cults prophet. This prophet was more than willing to accommodate the kid and they laid together but didn’t have sex so the story goes. Now this kid thinks that this prophet is really God incarnate. The prophet thinks he’s God incarnate. Incidentally, he’s the only one that’s allowed to have sex with the women in the cult-their husbands aren’t (allowed to).
    Now these folks sense God speaking to them and they feel really good about it. The chances of breaking through their mindset is not very promising.
    Mormons are in much the same way locked into a mindset that their spiritual feelings are facts and reveal God’s will. The Bible must be questioned of course as to it’s authenticity and reliability. So to must orthodox Christianity. You see, following the Bible and the tenants of orthodox Christianity would blow-up the Mormon mindset and cause Mormons a lot of mental anguish because their whole lives and ordered world would crumble. Of course they’d finally find the truth but the process of rebuilding is frightening and uncomfortable. Better to believe a lie I guess than experience loss especially when a clear vision of the gain that would be achieved is not evident to the true believer.
    Some do choose the difficult path of leaving and experiencing a true relationship with the living God. People do have a choice, I think.

  34. subgenius says:

    you claim
    “Mormons are in much the same way locked into a mindset that their spiritual feelings are facts and reveal God’s will.”
    but you have no evidence to support such a falsehood. Your above attempt at an inductive argument is seemingly more an attempt to insult Mormons and is the basic reason why your words fall on deaf ears and are void of the Spirit of truth. So how can John 8:15 be a lesson here?
    I am not sure, but in resposne to the general idea i think you are trying to convey about “spiritual feelings” i would direct you to 1 cor 2:14-15 and claim that until the Evangelical missionary is free of being a “natural man” there will be no understanding of how the Mormon is a “spiritual man”.

  35. Mike R says:

    Grindael and Falcon,

    Thanks for the great info you shared.

    It seems that when we share with LDS our n
    concern that some of their teachings do not
    line up with what God has said in the Old
    and New Testaments,that in the light of
    Gal.1:8-9 and elsewhere,we are castigated
    by some LDS like Faith of our Fathers[FOF].
    Yet,the LDS leadership evaluated Brian
    Mitchell’s new revelations and judged them
    as false, even “bizarre”.Why? How? They were
    not consistant with the doctrines of the Church.
    What doctrines? The written ones,the earlier
    ones contained in the 4 Standard Works
    Sounds like Gal.1:8-9.

    I imagine Brian Mitchell would appeal to the
    exact same rational that FOF does,to justify
    his “new truth”.
    Why would Brigham Young,at one point,ask people
    to take up the Bible and compare LDS doctrine
    with it? I would agree with him here.
    Also, since God has preserved His word for us
    it can be used to warn us of the coming events
    connected with the Second Coming of Christ.
    Concerning these events LDS curriculum states:

    ” All this is preserved in holy writ so that
    men will be led to prepare themselves for the
    day of the Lord….” [Doctrines of the Gospel
    student manuel,p.96 ]
    This is why people like Brian Mitchell are seen
    as false prophets/teachers, their personal
    revelations are not consistant with God’s Word
    (Matt 24:4,11; 1Tim.4:1; 2Pt.2:1 )
    I realize how prominent feelings,inner convic-
    tions are to LDS, but they are to others too.
    If an LDS is morally worthy does this mean that
    the “still small voice” inside them confirming
    their wants or needs is actually the Holy Ghost?
    Those feelings need to be based on God’s Word
    (Prov.14:12 ) LDS history is replete with the
    examples of sincere LDS ignoring God’s Word
    and proclaiming what they feel:
    “…Apostle Abraham O.Woodruff…who prophesied
    in 1900 before a church audience in the name of
    Jesus Christ that plural marriage would never be
    discontinued until the Second Coming of

  36. Mike R says:


    the Savior.” [Utah Historical Quarterly,
    vol.73,no.3 p.222 ]

  37. Enki says:

    What would you think if the set of gold plates became available for review for the general public?

  38. falcon says:

    Thank you Mike R.
    You get it, unlike our Mormon posters who don’t. I think it’s pretty funny that all of a sudden they scream “evidence” when all along their mantra is unprovable “revelation” based on their personal subjective feelings. If they really endeavored to seek for truth and evidence, they wouldn’t be Mormons. But then they’d have to actually be accountable instead of being in a free flow stream of consciousness which they mistakenly call the “spirit”. They play by a different set of rules which is fine as long as they realize that their religion is a fabricated fairy tale that gives them an emotional buzz. Better than drugs I guess, but judging from the number of women in Happy Valley that are on antidepressants I’d say the fabrication isn’t living up to its claims.

    What would I think if the set of gold plates became available for review for the general public? I’d say cool. Love to see them. I’d guess we’d all have to learn reformed Egyptian unless the Mormon church made Joe’s magic rock available for general use by the public. Then if we had his magic rock and magic hat we’d be like Old Joe and not even need the plates. Remember he didn’t actually use the plates when he did his masterful job of translation. After a time, he didn’t even need the magic rock when he prophesied. The folks were eating up anything he said not taking the time to actually test what was being said.
    So bring on the gold plates because then maybe the SLC Mormons would actually change their doctrine to reflect what’s in them.

  39. falcon says:

    I get a kick out of Mormons. We get a steady rap about “continuous revelation” and that they “feel” the spirit and then, all of a sudden when we articulate it back to them, they want evidence produced to indicate that they’re into this. Evidence? Evidence? They’re doing the Moroni number where by if people pray, all be it with humility, honesty and whatever character quality they want to attach to the experience, they will get a confirmation, in the form of a feeling that the BoM is true. Mormons are all about subjective feelings that indicate that God is speaking to them. Now they want me to produce evidence that what they claim, they do in fact claim. Unbelievable!
    The Mormon record regarding revelation, prophesy and the legitimacy of their prophets is so dismal you’d think that they’d catch on after a while.

  40. subgenius says:

    oops…your ego is showing

  41. Ralph says:

    Been on holidays for a while – camping. It was great despite the rain.

    We LDS teach that there are 2 prophets – 1 ‘Prophet’ that speaks for God on this earth and directs the church. There is only one of these at a time on the earth; 2 ‘prophet’, anyone with a testimony of Jesus Christ from the Holy Ghost.

    Because there is only one Prophet at any one time on this earth who speaks for God and directs the church, any other person claiming to be a Prophet who speaks for God must be challenged/measured up against the scriptures and the current Prophet. That is why we LDS find it so easy to dismiss this person and his so called prophecies. He is not God’s annointed and chosen mouthpiece.

    This does not mean that we cannot gain our own revelation from God about the sphere of stewardship that we have been given – eg family, church calling, etc. But this revelation we get should be measured against what the current Prophet teaches so we wont be led astray. Again, the person above was going against the current Prophet’s teachings.

    It is not a free for all as Falcon would have us believe – we look to the current Prophet, our living scripture, to give us the words of life from God for our day and age. We have only one leader – God, who reveals His word to one man – the Prophet, so we can all become unified in faith, doctrine and God. Not like the Christian community that have different leaders for different denominations who believe different doctrines but say that its OK they will all lead one to heaven. There is only one path, not subpaths to heaven.

    As far as the Quorum of the 12 are concerned, they are only to act as ‘Prophet’ when the Prophet has died, but then they must act together, not as individuals – ie a joint unanimous decision. Apart from this, they are prophets, as should all members of the church be, which is what that scripture from Numbers 11:29 is talking about.

  42. Ralph says:

    Yes our Prophets have made mistakes in their lives or done some things that many outsiders do not believe should have been done. But if we go through the OT and look at the Prophets there where we have some of their life stories, we also find that they were not perfect and did the wrong things. Why can you accept their lives and mistakes (and here I am talking about personal lives, not doctrine) but not the LDS Prophets’ lives and mistakes? JS had many wives – so too did Moses, Abraham, Jacob (Israel) and others. JS lied about something – so too did Moses, Abraham and Isaac. JS supposedly killed 2 or 3 people in the Carthage gaol shoot-out. Moses and Samuel killed people and commanded Israel to do the same, in the case of Samuel it was an unarmed prisoner (most likely bound hand and foot); for Moses it was a slave driver whipping an Israelite. Neither were in self defense which JS most likely was. How much more can we go on with this comparison of lives? It is not the life style one should look at (especially if you believe that works do not save but faith alone), but the doctrine.

    But to get back to topic, the man above was not a Prophet or mouthpiece for God as there is only one of these and he does not fit the bill in my faith. His revelations, whether personal or for the world (as he professess) do not line up with the current Prophet of God so he is teaching against the LDS church. So this man’s life/revelations are accurately described as being bizzare according to the LDS church.

    And as to the question about David Koresh, etc most of these people claimed to be Jesus, whereas none of our Prophets have. So there is one reason why we should not believe them as we know there was and is only one Jesus, and we know that His second coming will be a big event, not a simple slip in and build it up from there (ie be born again and grow up as Jesus’ first coming was like).

  43. Mike R says:

    I mistakenly refered to Faith of our Fathers
    in my last post.I meant our LDS friend,
    Defender of the Faith.

  44. Kevin says:

    When was the last time the Mormon Corporation claimed they received revelation from God, and what I mean by that, is, when was the last time a person from the quorum of the 15 prophets said, “And the Lord told me…”, “God has said…”

    Not recently you say, hummm

    That is because it is policy not to give credit to God, because of rouge revelators.

    And why would that be their policy? Because they don’t receive a word from God because their god is made from words of JS.

    Although they do let the membership believe they talk to God, lying by omission.

    The only person crawling around, under, or over the BOM is Holland, and any other member who tried, oh so hard, to convince the world that they are right, he just needed to full the ammo bucket with more fictitious answers.

    Once again I ask, How many lies can the true church of God tell, before it is no longer true?

  45. Kevin says:

    BTW any TBM knows that as a member you sustain all 15 people, the 12 in the quorum, and the 3 in the second to none presidency as… Drum role please, PROPHETS, seers, and revelators. That makes 15 by my math.

    You do not sustain them as anything else but, the wording is very specific. Until they change the wording, i.e. in temple recommend meetings. yes you are sustaining them as PROPHETS… all 15.

  46. Enki says:

    Funny, funny, funny. I am currently reading a book about relics. Its rather strange, that in many cases physical evidence actually can work against faith and belief,especially in the current age of skepticism. Yes, if the spirit realm produced the plates once again, there would be a great deal of skepticism. Probably more from active mormons than outside of the faith.

    So, if it had funny orthography that nobody could read, in some unknown language, how long would it take in the secular world to read it? I believe it took centuries for the world to read authentic inscriptions from egypt which have nothing to do with the LDS faith.

    This belief that there would be more of the BOM is problematic. I never realized that it could actually create more skepticism than belief. The biggest problem however might probably be lack of interest from most of the world.

  47. falcon says:

    Let’s see, by Kevin’s calculation there are fifteen (15) Mormon profits. Now I would think with what they pay these profits, they’d come up with something of substance, even occasionally. Do these guys foretell the future? They can’t even adequately respond to questions regarding their own faith and doctrine. What did old Gordon B.H. tell Larry King when asked about men becoming gods. I think it was something akin to “I don’t know that we teach that.” Some profit. These guys have a great gig. They don’t go on record about anything they just get trotted out a couple of times a year at general conference to do some generic rah rah and that keeps the faithful happy and sending in their nickels, dimes and quarters so the profits can jet around their little empire. With the amount of money the morg is sticking into these guys you’d think they’d come up with something worth while on occasion.
    Steve Benson has some interesting things to say about his grandfather, former profit Ezra Taft Benson. Once the aura is broken and these guys are seen for who they are, the hold that Mormonism has on people disappears like vapor.

  48. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    Grind encourages us to test all spirits after citing 1 Jn 4 and then concludes “If we were to go by DOF we would have prophets coming out of our ears”

    Since this chapter is a favorite on MRM, let’s look at what this apostles is teaching.

    All true spirits teach
    1. Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh
    2. Men and women of God receive the LIVING messengers sent from God himself
    3. True disciples possess love

    Perhaps one could argue that the MRM clan has #1 and #3 and I will give them the benefit of the doubt. However, test #2 they fail miserably. This has been the common lot throughout history to all who reject God. They cannot stand living messengers. “We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

    In D&C language that would be “mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts” and “whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same.”

    Do you ever wonder why you the GA’s and the missionaries won’t give you the time of day? They know who they are and if you won’t hear them, you reveal yourself as not of God.

    So if I use the test as grindael demands, then this group fails. They will not hear the apostles and prophets sent to them so I know they are the ‘spirit of error’. God be thanked for NT apostles who teach eternal principles and for helping us see who the true messengers are. The Word is powerful.

  49. Enki says:

    What would you like LDS GA to say?

  50. Ralph says:


    Yes the Quorum of 12 and the First Presidency are all sustained as prophets, seers and revelators by the church. This does not mean that they act individually as such all the time. The Prophet is the only person allowed to do this. The others perform these duties under his authority if the Prophet delegates to them a responsibility that requires these attributes. They also act as such when the current Prophet is either dead or incapacitated somehow, but only as a group, not as individuals. So yes, they are sustained as such (and my last post does not contradict this), but they cannot act as such unless under the afore mentioned circumstances.


    Pres Hinckley was discussing these questions “There are some significant differences in your beliefs [and other Christian churches]. For instance, don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?” and “Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?” ( Can you show me in there where he is denying or being unclear as to ‘men becoming gods’ as you state? These 2 quotes are asking about whether God was a man like us, NOT can we become like Him. He is being truthful here because we don’t know what God’s previous circumstances were like as discussed in a previous thread.

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