The LDS Church has launched a “considerably” expensive advertising blitz in nine markets across America. The city I live in happens to be one of them. The advertising campaign is designed to persuade people that Mormons are nothing special or unique; they are just like everybody else. The television ads feature people from different walks of life saying things like, “My name is Josh. I’m a skateboarder. I’m a photographer, and I’m a Mormon.” Or, “I’m a surfer, a woman and a woman’s longboard champion. And I’m a Mormon.”
It’s common around here to hear people respond to the content of these ads with a shrug and a “So what?” Yet the blitz effectively brings non-Mormons into a sort of 21st century “contact” with normal Mormons multiple times a day. Where Mormonism may have seemed remote and a little mysterious before, the ads will allow it to now be perceived as commonplace.
The LDS website for non-Mormons, Mormon.org, is also putting great emphasis on Mormons as regular people. Four of the five rotating linked images on the home page highlight individual Mormons and their stories while the one remaining linked image refers to an aspect of LDS belief.
While it has long been the aim of the LDS Church to be recognized as a Christian church, there seems to be an increased effort to encourage people to accept Mormonism as “normal” or non-unique. A recent article that appeared in The Daily Times (Maryland; July 31, 2010) was titled, “Mormonism has similarities to other Christian churches.” While the two bishops interviewed for the article talked a bit about LDS history (i.e., the First Vision: “What’s unique about the church of the Latter-day Saints is its origin with Jesus Christ himself”), the bulk of the article is about what Mormons do (e.g., go to church, shun alcohol, pray, take communion, etc). Furthermore, in telling the First Vision story, Bishop Long explained that Joseph Smith was told by God not to join any of the existing churches. However, it was not because they were “all wrong; …all their creeds were an abomination…[and] those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith History 1:19). If Mr. Long had shared that bit of LDS scripture he could not have kept up the pretense that “there are more similarities between our church and other Christian churches than differences” (as Bishop Whitaker told the journalist). Instead, Mr. Long explained that Smith was not to join any church because he was chosen to “help restore the gift of the apostles.”
Another recent article that fits nicely with the campaign to present Mormonism as people and not as a belief system appeared in Mormon Times on August 1st, 2010. Jerry Johnston’s article, “Actions are great equalizer in religion,” suggests,
“…that’s the problem with religious discussions today. We focus on each other’s ideas rather than each other’s ideals. We want to know what people think, not how they live.”
Mr. Johnston believes that, since faith resides in people’s hearts, not their heads, we should avoid focusing on what people “hold to be true” and instead look at how they live. While he affirms that what a person believes is important, he insists,
“Being a believer isn’t nearly as important as being a doer…
“The next time someone says, ‘Let’s talk religion. What do you believe?’ turn it around and say, ‘Let’s talk religion. How do you try [to] live your life?’
I do believe that faith will be borne out in one’s actions. This, after all, is what the Bible says (James 2:14-19). But we cannot know the nature of a person’s faith by looking at his actions. For example, a beautiful young woman believes (has faith) that if she treats a wealthy old man in a loving way he will remember her in his will. So she showers him with love — or what looks like love to those who are watching. Though her actions appear admirable, they are not; nor is her faith. Because we cannot know a person’s heart, we cannot know what they really believe by looking only at what they do.
The LDS Church is campaigning in the U.S. to be accepted as normal; that is, as mainstream America, mainstream Christian. There is nothing different about Mormonism — just look at how ordinary the Mormon people are. But Mormonism was founded on the very idea that it is different. It claims to be the only true church, after all. To suggest that one can know all they need to know about Mormonism by looking at the apparent normalcy of its members seems almost to employ a bit of slight of hand.
The Bible tells us that even Satan himself can appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:13-15); that people can and will do “many mighty works” in the name of Christ yet not be accepted by Him (Matthew 7:21-23). Of course Jesus cares about what we do, yet He taught, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (John 6:29).
Therefore, I urge you, friends, when you see the new Mormon ads, shrug and say to your LDS friends, “So what? Tell me what your church teaches. Tell me what you believe.”
Those new ads look an awful lot like microsoft´s "i´m a pc" ads… did anyone else notice the similarities?
I wish they would also invite Seinfeld for one of those new ads! It would be awesome to see him making fun of Thomas Monson 😛
Does anybody know the name of the PR company working for the church?
"By their fruits ye may know them."
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
Actions seem pretty important in recognizing followers of Christ- at least according to Him.
I cannot speak for the church, but over the years there have been some pretty looney ideas out there about the mormon people. And I think it is a reasonable thing for the church to attempt to counter some of those rumors- whether it is that we have multiple wives or that we have horns. I served a mission in the south, and I came across people who still believed such things.
I know you critics perceive us as trying to crawl under the curtain and be accepted as being like you. Don't flatter yourselves- we simply want to define our own religion. There are big differences between our religions, but you don't have the exclusive right to define those differences.
People have different definitions for what a Christian is. Some, who live their lives arguing over definitions and technicalities insist that a Christian must submit to a list of creeds and extra-biblical theological constructs. Some people use the word Christian to describe how a person treats others (i.e. that man is a great Christian). I think most people would define a Christian as a person who accepts Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World and the means of salvation. The pharisees among us seek control in labelling people from their judgemental and self-righteous seats based on arbitrary and technical standards that go beyond the teachings of Christ.
Ours is the right to employ the most commonly accepted defintion of "Christian"- look it up. It is your right to tell people that we believe that Christ was literally the Son of God and other things that make us different. But it is dishonest to claim we are not Christians when you are using a definition of that word not used by the masses.
Great point setfreebyJC.
The people in these ads are obviously not very good Christians. Hiking? Skateboarding? Photography? What are they thinking!?
People with hobbies are clearly not Jesus' sheep.
(Wait … did they say anything in the ads about not being willing to give those things up for Jesus if necessary?)
I referenced a flyer that Andy Watson put me on to that a stake out in his part of the woods was distributing. It was for an up coming event they were sponsoring and the tag line was, "We're just like you but we don't worship the cross." There is so much ignorance and deceit in that one line it's hard to know where to start. Anyway, Andy, true to his calling, went to the event. From the sounds of it, the Mormons were doing everything possible to look ordinary and "normal" because there wasn't anything being displayed regarding the basics of Mormonism. It was all Boy Scouts, relief society,etc. Andy did his thing and became the skunk at the garden party.
It's amazing that Mormonism and Mormons have to hide who they are and what they believe. They are dishonest and deceitful and their tactics are all about getting people into the baptismal font as ignorant as possible. That's why they lose the majority of their members. This campaign is going to backfire because there will be some blow-back with the revealing of what Mormonism is all about.
I heard one of their new commercials on either a local radio station or an XM news station during a 6 hour drive to vacation. It talked about how God helped him through his life, showed him the way, etc (your generic "God is the light of the right path, and ever since I've followed Him, life's been great" story).
I was livid at the PR behind this. I was reading a blog post at Runtu's Rincon (link is to the blog, not the post) about a family who sat in through a Mormon video production that included a very emotional story. The wife was in tears by the end of it, but then the screen posted a disclaimer that basically said the screenplay was made with an actor and a script. She lift in a fit of rage, and that's a bit how I felt about the advertisement.
It reminds me of when the person who introduced me to Mormonism thought becoming "like" God meant something other then becoming "a" god (in turn for her introducing me to Mormonism, I introduced her to Mormon deification. Or rather, Joseph Fielding Smith did. He didn't use vague PR lines for ridiculous doctrines).
There was also another time when I saw a license plate border that read "Families are forever. Mormon.org."
My first thought was to write "And we can become gods of our own planets" somewhere near that statement.
Bloody con artists. Make a deal with the devil; there's no difference to buying the forever families line. Bunch of "I like that because I want it to be true" garbage with fine print from hell itself.
Reminds me of how Joseph Smith included his lovely "babies remain in the exact form that they died in when they become exalted as gods!" line into his King Follet discourse.
Well the blow-back has started. The Life After Mormonism website is taking ideas for some YouTube adds with the tag line "I used to be a Mormon". Perhaps some of our exMormon posters could list some ideas here regarding there own "I used to be a Mormon" experience.
Some Mormons love to talk about the fruit of Mormonism. Don't get me started on this one. Should we talk about the fruit of Joseph Smith as it continues today in the fundamentalist sects of Mormonism. These folks practice Joseph Smith style Mormonism and it's not a pretty picture. The basic fruit of Mormonism is fear, guilt and domination by a cult that can't slap enough white wash on their religion to cover up the stains of deceit. Mormons just don't get it. If they have to with hold information from people in order to get them to join, what does that say about the group? What it says is that Mormonism can't be honest about itself or people wouldn't join. Why do Mormons think exMormons are so angry and hostile towards the religion? It's because they got scammed.
These pretty picture Mormon ads are like someone putting some lipstick on a pig to make the animal more attractive!
Jim said: "People have different definitions for what a Christian is. …I think most people would define a Christian as a person who accepts Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World and the means of salvation… Ours is the right to employ the most commonly accepted defintion of "Christian"- look it up"
A Christian, Jim, is one who understands who Jesus is, and what He came to do, and sold everything they had to purchase that one "pearl of great price". A non-Christian would be someone who:
1-reinvented and redefined Jesus, before accepting Him. For example, saying He is just "a" god, one of many, and the brother of Lucifer and yada yada
2-redefined "pearl of great price", "gospel", "grace", etc… so that they resemble nothing of what Jesus taught (biblically).
Mikey_Petey says:
"Great point setfreebyJC. The people in these ads are obviously not very good Christians. Hiking? Skateboarding? Photography? What are they thinking!? People with hobbies are clearly not Jesus' sheep. "
That was a little twist on what I said, but that's okay. Let me be more clear. What is your religion doing with this new PR campaign? Trying to make Mormons/Mormonism more acceptable to the world? No? How about, trying to make it so that Mormons are more accepted "out there" – in social situations, work environments, whatever? Is that it? What exactly is the LDS PR machine spending all this money to accomplish? Are Mormons so persecuted today that the church has stepped up to help outsiders think they are cool? Or is this about converts, or what?
My point, I suspect, could have been more thoroughly written out.
So here it is, and if it still doesn't make sense, let me know again so I can further clarify.
Jesus wasn't the least bit involved in "being like everyone else." He didn't try to make Himself appealing to those who were righteous either. He wasn't about the in-crowd, the in-thing-to-do. And He certainly was NOT about being NORMAL or ACCEPTABLE to the world at large.
Mormonism is embracing the world, so that the world will embrace them.
Jesus let people misunderstand, torture, and kill Him… and the apostles after Him did too.
Opposite extremes. Opposite goals.
From my Dictionary.com app: "of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."
What part of the Standard Works is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ? Definitely not all of it. The creeds of Christianity (at least, the two major ones I can think of) have Biblical support and, especially in the case of the Apostles creed, were derived from the bible (and FAIR tried to exempt the Apostle's creed from "God's" statement about all the creeds being an abomination in the First Vision).
In comparison to Mormonism, aside from the Bible, the only biblical portion in the Mormon Standard Works are the plagiarized bible verses scattered in the BoM, the D&C, PoGP. The rest are purely extra-biblical revelations from Joseph Smith.
This is why I consider Mormonism to be at least 1/8th Christian. There is definitely some biblical Christian theology involved, but somewhere around half of it is redefined or revised due to the First Presidencies in the Mormon church (for instance, as you said, Christ was "literally" the Son of God, which only works in the context of the LDS creation story).
The rest of Mormonism is, again, the teachings of Smith and the other Presidents of the church, not Jesus Christ.
Maybe, as a Mormon, you feel that their revelations came from Christ.
We don't. They aren't Christian to us. Just Mormon.
Hey – it's mobaby with my new handle – 10-4? I lost my password, and my work e-mail my name was registered to, so I thought it was time to move on.
Scripture says that no good works are pleasing to God apart from Christ. If you are not redeemed by the blood of Christ the savior, your good works count for nothing. Jesus righteousness is everything, our good works – apart from Him are worthless. Jesus is the beginning, end, middle, future, and past of our salvation. Any good in me comes from Jesus death and resurrection. Thus, what you believe, who you trust in, is EVERYTHING.
setfree,
You are pretty good at spin.
"Mormonism is embracing the world?" Really?
Your next sentence just as well could be that the church is embracing sin and evil and pornography and prostitution, etc. etc.
Like I said before, some people still have crazy ideas about mormons, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with the church simply saying- hey, we are normal people- we don't have horns, we don't live in a compound and wear sheets at the airports, etc. etc.
And you have morphed this into the concept that we are anti-Christ, "opposite extremes, opposite goals." Please.
And can you provide the reference for your definition of Christian? In this discussion, it is important to use words the way normal people interpret them. And the average person does not use your contrived definition of Christian.
Here is the definition from dictionary.com:
1. Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
We are not embracing the world. We simply want to dispell misunderstandings about us where they exist.
If our intent was to be accepted by the world, we certainly wouldn't be front and center in the fight against homosexual marriage, etc. That effort has certainly garnered acceptance from "the world."
Get real.
I have to wonder just how many people out there believe Mormons "wear sheets at the airports", "have horns", and "live in a compound".
Must be almost everyone, to warrant the expense,
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/in-new-tv-ad…
Yahoo! News says this about the ads:
"So why the recent publicity push?
Several reporters speculated that church leaders are trying to get out in front of the widely anticipated push from former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney to rejoin the GOP political fray. Most political observers expect Romney, a lifelong Mormon, to make a run for president in 2012."
and
"Mormon leaders were also very vocal in their support of California's Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban. Utahns sent $3.8 million to the state, most of it to supporters of the ban. Campbell says the media framed the controversy over the initiative (which a federal judge overturned last week) as "Mormons vs. gays." He said that the church "has a lot of work to do to improve that reputation."
Ok,, so, we are supposed to ignore the new testament and all of historic christianity and accept the mormon definition of who a christian is?
The reason that mormonism isn´t christianity is because it disagrees with the very definition of who Christ is as recorded in the Bible.
If christianity is just good works, than by your own definition you could call a buddhist christian – it just doesn´t make sense.
You believe that Christ was conceived through sexual relations between God the father and Mary, You are polytheists contrary to what Jesus himself said, that God was one. You say that Christ is our spirit-brother and spirit brother of Lucifer and your god is an exalted man – Christ said he was Spirit.
Is that what Jesus or the Apostles taught? No! True christians have to "contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints".
Besides, nobody on this board defined christianity, it is the same christianity that the apostles taught that was preserved through the early church(not the ROMAN catholic church) – but you want the world to believe that Joseph Smith knew better about it than the apostles themselves…sad!
Joseph Smith lied about translating egyptian(Book of Abraham), lied about being a convicted glass-looker, lied about polygamy, etc. Is this the man you want us to trust to tell us what christianity really means?
You say:" And the average person does not use your contrived definition of Christian."
By that you probably mean "mormons", "Jehovah Witnesses" and other cultists.
The whole ad campaign is a way to lure more unsuspecting people into mormonism, and if they don´t get smart and don´t do a basic research on the internet they will be deceived until it is too late.
Jay K,
We do consider all our standard works to be not only based on the teachings of Christ, but to have come from Him. I still consider you a Christian even though you reject the prophets of Christ.
Do you consider people who believe in pseudoepigraphic and apocraphal writings from the early church period non-Christian? What about the Christians who believed the Bible before the "extra" books were removed by our evangelical friends a couple hundred years ago? Were they non-Christian?
Your characterization of the BOM shows how little you know about it. By the way, look up the definition of plagiarize.
So you, in essense, believe that a Christian is somebody who agrees with you about what is canon. That moves a bunch of folks out of the circle who consider themselves Christian. The claim to authority to make such judgements astounds me immensely.
By the way, do you know what percentage of "mainstream" lay-Christians would consider Christ to be literally the Son of God? I think it a little naive to claim this is limited to LDS theology.
All of the beliefs that make us Christian can be found in the Bible- and those are the most basic and important doctrines of our religion. It is arrogant to say your interpretation is the only interpretation of the Bible, as if our doctrine of faith, repentence, baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, justification, sanctification, judgement, resurrection, etc. are not based on the Bible. We may come away with a different interpretation. But you have no authority to make the blanket statement that we are not Christian. We believe Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, and that salvation is found only through His atonement. When you state otherwise, people who do not know any better are led to think we don't believe those things. And that is dishonest.
These are a few ideas for new church ads:
1 – http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon583.htm
"I´m a single mother, i have 6 children, i pay tithing, i´m a mormon"
2 – http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon612.htm
"My leaders care about me, they have meetings just to talk about my life"
3 – http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon533.htm
"I´m a regular guy, i want to become a God someday and we have some cool handshakes in the temple"
4 – http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon104.htm
"I´m a father, i´m a mormon, and i don´t have to worry about anything because when the prophet speaks the thinking has been done"
5 – http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon615.htm
"Hi, I´m Josh, i´m a photographer, i´m a skateboarder, i´m a husband, i´m a mormon and i spend saturdays cleaning the chapel!" Not to mention sundays – those are fun!
The whole thing is so deceitful, just make me wanna laugh. Look at this video :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pjNWvEMYwo&feature=related
This girl´s bishop needs to give her a calling, she has too much time on her hands. I wonder if she does genealogy and does baptism for the dead in the temple, or maybe the dead can just wait another day of surfing!
Amazing!
New Agers also have their own definition of who Christ is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MpkYzvnCRM&fe…
To them Christ is just a form of conscience, and the person Jesus didn´t come to save us from our sins, but to "show us the way" so that we can save ourselves.
So, are New Agers christian? By Jim Olsen´s definition, yes!
truly sad…
That was hilarious! LOL!
Maybe there are still some people that believe mormons do human or goat sacrifice in the temple. I seriously had someone ask me that once.
The whole point of cults is to look exactly like and make the same claims of Christianity, right down to the lingo they use and try their best to hide the true meaning of what they say and believe. So we have one of our Mormon posters doing the "accepted Jesus as my personal Savior" line. I'm so glad that one of the Christians defined what Mormons mean by that claim as opposed to what Christians mean. Sneaky people these cultists.
I hauled out a book that I've had for years written by Dr. Walter Martin called "The New Cults". He references the old cults and says the new cults basically use the same strategies to fool people. Dr. Martin has some great observations:
*The cultic teaching claims to be in harmony with the Bible but denies one or more of the cardinal doctrines presented there in.
*All cults possess some Scripture that is either added to or which replaces the Bible as God's Word.
*The new cults and their dynamic leaders claim to know the truth, claim to be able to provide answers for all of life's many questions. Searching, seeking people seem inexorably drawn toward the false light of the new cults.
*Individual experience has become the validation of religious truth.
*The cults deny, in one form or another, salvation by God's grace alone. The cults add something, some kind of work, to God's grace in order to achieve approval from God.
*Our standard in examining the beliefs of the new cults is the Bible. It will be the final arbiter in the cults challenge to Christianity. The Bible declares that certain articles of Christian faith are essential to salvation-namely, the Being and nature of God, the Person and work of Christ, His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection, man's natural condition and opportunity for salvation, the means of salvation, and Christ's ultimate return and reconciliation of all things to the Father.
The whole point of these puff ads by the Mormon church is to communicate a "we are just like you" message. The implication then, of course, is that we believe just like you. The people in these ads are attractive eye candy put forth by Mormonism to fool the unsuspecting.
If "faith, repentence, baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, justification, sanctification, judgement, resurrection, etc" were all that you believe, this conversation would be different.
But you also believe that God, the creator is a poligamous exalted man, and that exalted man will live by the law of polygamy. Where´s that in the Bible?
Also, by Bible standards, Joseph Smith has been proven to be a false prophet because many of his prophecies didn´t come true.
"By the way, do you know what percentage of "mainstream" lay-Christians would consider Christ to be literally the Son of God? I think it a little naive to claim this is limited to LDS theology."
Give us a concrete example of that, please? Have you ever done any surveys about it?
"When you state otherwise, people who do not know any better are led to think we don't believe those things. And that is dishonest."
That´s not dishonest, even Gordon B. Hinckley said that you don´t believe in the traditional Jesus Christ, but in the "revealed" Christ. So what Jay K and many christians are doing is to make sure everybody knows the difference – mormonism has its own definition of those principles you mentioned above, yet it tries to make the impression that those are the standard historical christian principles and that´s a lie.
". It is arrogant to say your interpretation is the only interpretation of the Bible,"
Alright, so tell me, is the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS the only true and living church on the face of the earth? and Jay K is arrogant? Please…
The mormon church didn´t even record the "restoration" of their major priesthood… and that´s the power Christ gave to JS to run His church? Is that the authority you have to define christianity for the world?
You have to be very naive or very deceived(as i once was) to believe that.
Jay K,
Being “based on the teachings” of something means just that – based. A building is based on a foundation, but the foundation is not the whole building as you are trying to make out here. Thus the LDS church still fits this dictionary meaning of the term ‘Christian’. We are based on the teachings of Jesus found in the NT. We interpret some of the teachings differently to you, yes, but we are still based on His teachings.
you said
So it’s alright for the Uniting Church here in Australia to do the same thing and show ads with people saying how God has helped them through their lives especially in the hard times, but not the LDS church or any other? If so, then how hypocritical is that?
"Do you consider people who believe in pseudoepigraphic and apocraphal writings from the early church period non-Christian? What about the Christians who believed the Bible before the "extra" books were removed by our evangelical friends a couple hundred years ago? Were they non-Christian?"
Your characterization of the BOM shows how little you know about it. By the way, look up the definition of plagiarize."
I think i got this wrong but are you using the apocryphal books and pseudoepigraphic writings as a reason to not discredit the Book of Mormon?
The apocryphal writings like the "gospel of Peter" were rejected by the church fathers, and they corrected the false teachings of those works. That´s why they put together the creeds – to fight against the heresies of the time.
The people who believed in those false teachings had to repent and stop believing/teaching it, otherwise they would be going against Christ and His doctrine. That´s the reason Christ chose apostles, to "feed His sheep", that´s why the mormon church has an educational system, to make sure the right doctrines are taught, and those who don´t accept it and don´t repent and change are excommunicated from the church and are no longer mormons.
Look I can put on a Green Bay Packer jersey but that doesn't make me a Green Bay Packer. There's a certain set of criteria, if I met them, would mean I'm on the team. Mormons use no criteria except for some borrowed vocabulary and the idea that the name Jesus Christ is in the title of their religion.
Mr. Olsen,
Christ gave the command in Matthew 5:48, Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
How does one "be perfect" ?
Surely you would agree that the Father in Heaven is perfect, holy?
Can any of us be perfect right now? As the Father in Heaven is?
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I thought the OP was equivocating on the word "ordinary". A church can have extraordinary truth claims while still containing members that are largely ordinary members of society. So the OP tried to argue that the commercials invalidate our truth claims when they are really making a different point. As a member of the church I've often been viewed as an animal at the zoo. I actually had one person say, "wow I've never seen A MORMON before". So I endorse the attempts of the church to let people know that we are not the Mormon (Borg) collective. Our church has extraordinary doctrinal claims. But the members of the church show a great deal of depth, diversity, and relatable values.
It's kind of funny that the Mormon church has to come up with an expensive ad campaign to prove to the world that they aren't weird. Maybe what they need to do in conjunction with this campaign is do some "rebranding" because obviously the Mormon church thinks that their current "brand" image isn't making it out there in the world. The problem with rebranding is that the rebrand has to have some basis in reality. I don't think it's the behavior of Mormons that's the issue (although there are some real cultural distinctives) but it's the history, doctrines and attempts of the church to hide these things that's the problem. The Community of Christ is really open about the founding and history of their particular "brand" of Mormonism. However the CoC doesn't have to overcome the doctrinal problems that the SLC brand does. In fact the CoC has been called "Methodists with extra scripture". But notice that the CoC rebranding, from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, to the Community of Christ does have a basis in reality. They don't hold to any of the basic tenants of the SLC Mormon church. So the rebranding of the CoC works because it reflects what they believe in and also separates them from the toxic effects that the Mormon brand has. It's the same with the Temple Lot sect. Their new brand name is Church of Christ but their whole play is that they are the real restoration and that all other churches are an abomination. This won't win them many friends. They see Smith as a fallen prophet. They deny most of the SLC distinctives.
All of these groups have a brand that they have to live with for better or for worse. I'm sure the SLC bunch doesn't want anyone else to define their brand so they're taking a run at it themselves by trying to appear just like all the rest of the population. The Mormon church, it seems, hasn't figured out that what separates their group from Christianity isn't the people but the Mormon church itself. I'd be a little more impressed if they ran an add campaign showing how they are different from other churches and why. At least that way they could stop playing their Mormon shell game.
So why are Mormons looked at like animals at the zoo as our poster has noted? Where did the notion come from that Mormons are a bunch of oddballs? Were they the object of a smear campaign that unfairly portrayed them as being freaks at a carnival sideshow? Let's face it, Mormonism hasn't done itself any favors when it comes to image. The "extraordinary claims" of Mormonism gets head jerk reactions when people learn of them. And its not that people don't understand these "extraordinary claims" that's the problem for Mormons although they think it is. People do understand the claims but don't believe them. It's kind of offensive when it's learned that the founder of the religion married a bunch of women, some married to other men and at least a couple of young teenagers. He did this, he claimed, because an angel with a sword threatened to kill him if he didn't get it on with the sisters. People wonder why a person would tolerate a religion that on the one hand tries to hide such information and on the other, justify it. So it's not a matter of understanding such "precious" truths like eternal progression. Eternal progression isn't that difficult to understand. It's pretty straight forward. It's that folks think that those who believe they'll become gods and procreate spirit children into eternity and have their own planets to rule, are a couple of bubbles off of plumb.
I have the sense that the Mormon culture in the western part of the country tends to be a turn-off to people. Where I live, Mormons aren't even a blip on the religious radar screen. I know some Mormons. They aren't any stranger than anyone else I know. I mean we have the Amish and conservative Mennonites around here and they are more easily identifiable than Mormons. I got to know a Amish family pretty well. They were different from the norm of the area. But I liked them and rather enjoyed their distinctive culture. In fact a lot of people admire there dedication to their way of life.
So if Mormons wonder why they are thought of as being like "animals at the zoo" they need to ask why. And because someone thinks the beliefs of Mormonism are weird, that's not persecution. That's an opinion. Mormons are just going to have to learn to suck-it-up and understand that just because they get a buzz off of Mormonism, most people won't. In fact the buzz can't be very sustaining since most people on the rolls of the Mormon church are inactive.
Answer this then:
Do you believe in the Jesus Christ of tradition?
and you say "All of the beliefs that make us Christian can be found in the Bible"
It´s arrogant of you to say you only have to subscribe to a few beliefs to be a christian – that after that you can add up any made up beliefs that have no basis in the Bible as much as you want.
Just think about this, in order to conform with society and improve their image, Mormons were willing to dump their most precious truth, polygamy. This was the practice that would allow a Mormon male to reach the highest level of godhood and the Mormon church jettisoned it under pressure. Imagine that, a willingness to toss overboard a revelation that Joseph Smith received under penalty of death from an angel with a sword. Under the same societal pressure, the Mormon church got rid of the ban on blacks in the priesthood. When the ancient secret and sacred temple rituals with the throat slashing and bowel shredding became well known, that was dropped. Things like this just didn't give Mormons a very good image nor does the dressing up in costumes in the temple or wearing special super sacred underwear. This isn't about "understanding" because even after the Mormon explanation is offered, it still impresses people as being a little more than strange. After all this isn't like a bunch of guys who like to dress up in Civil War garb and act out battles. Mormonism is a 19th century aberration that doesn't fit well in the 21st century.
Jim Olsen, i have a question.
Can i believe in the Book of Mormon and at the same time believe that Joseph Smith fell away from God´s truth after the translation of the Book of Mormon, like David Whitmer did, and still be recognized by the church as a mormon?
Can i refuse to use Doctrine and Covenants, and adopt the old Book of Commandments, and still be officially called a mormon, and be allowed to go into the temple?
See, mormonism has the basic requirements of beliefs in order for you to become a part of the church, and that´s why you have to interview people before they get baptized, to make sure they believe the necessary things such as:
– Do you believe (current prophet) is a prophet, seer and revelator?
– Do you believe JS was a prophet of God?
– DO you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God?
etc…
If the person being interviewed says "no" to one of those questions, he can´t be baptized, and unless the person changes his belief it will be end of story.
The same way historic christianity is based on the original teachings of the church as built by the apostles, and they, in order to fight heresies, made sure the beliefs were clear and set those as the requirements for a person to become a christian.
Now, if you have a different definition of christianity, you have to make it clear – instead of trainning missionaries to sound just like evangelical christians, giving the impression that you believe the same as it´s been taught for ages.
Falcon made a great statement:
"I'd be a little more impressed if they ran an add campaign showing how they are different from other churches and why"
That would be the correct approach – The church leaders often speak proudly of the pioneers giving their lives for what they believed, but today it seems the approach is the opposite. In the beginning of the church, the members were proud to be different, today they don´t feel that way anymore.
Something that really disturbed me as a member of the church was that i had to explain "garments", "Blacks and the priesthood", the ideia that people will become gods, etc. – It never made sense to me, and i avoided conversations about it because it was embarassing. If was the will of god as the church proclaimed, why did i feel so bad and embarassed about it? Now i know why!
Do you realize that the church can edit anything you post as much as they want without notifying you?
They can make money off of it without even mentioning your name?
They can use your church records without notice, as much as they want, and use additional information about you without asking for permission?
I wonder if they also have access to your tithing records, or now with the new bar-code temple recommends they can know how often you go to the temple… Can they use that information without your consent too?
f melo,
Great post. I was thinking relative to this thread topic that not to long ago Mormons were not to happy
with the media for refering to the polygamists in Texas as, "Mormons". Concidering how they share
some key beliefs with the brethren who follow Thomas Monson I thought that was a strange rationale .
When you see how a Mormon Apostle once shared from his heart that since there are only 2 churches
in the world today, his Church, and that of the Church of the Devil, why some Mormons now want to call
us, " Christian brothers " , is interesting.
ww
The church has made efforts to help change that notion that everybody else is of the church of the devil, Gordon Hinckley started saying that every religion has a portion of the truth, but not the whole truth.
So, even though their doctrine says there are only 2 churches – one of god, and the other of the devil they do some mental gymnastics to reconcile that with every religion having a portion of truth to be able to share their message without offending and scaring off people.
But try sometime to put some pressure on a mormon to see if he doesn´t spill that the only true church is the mormon church and that your church is of the devil and your creeds are an abomination.
I´ve had mormons tell me that salvation by grace alone is a doctrine of the devil.
Another strategy the church uses on that line is "build on common beliefs" which basically means to take what people already believe and add to it/redefine it.
An example of that is Alma 18:
26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?
27 And he said, Yea.
28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?
They use this passage to demonstrate how even though Ammon didn´t believe in a great spirit, he used it as a way to "build on common beliefs", to facilitate his preaching of the gospel.
That´s a very subtle tactic – one of the sneakiest in my opinion.
OJ,
Because we are filled with the Holy Spirit, a priesthood of believers called out to preach the truth of the Gospel message, we are indeed authorized to state that Mormons are not truly Christians. We must fight against heretical teachings, and the Mormon Church teaches a lot of heresies. One cannot be a Christian and believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. One cannot be a Christian and believe that Yahweh is just one of many gods. One cannot be a Christian and believe that God was created. One cannot be a Christian and believe that God merely organized matter that somehow predates Him. Sorry, OJ, no matter how much you want to say Mormons are Christians, what you believe about God doesn't meet the standard. You might think that all you need to do is behave a certain way, but there are atheists who do philanthropic work, as well. What one believes about Jesus Christ is important, OJ. Why else would He ask His disciples: "Who do you say that I am?" You're the one who needs to quit being dishonest when you talk to naive people about your religion.
Are Mormons ok with this? I was totally confused. http://www.mormon.org/me/1GPP-eng/
OMG!!!!!!
"I am Mormon with same gender attraction (outside the church, usually referred to as "gay"). Many people think that's a contradiction. It's think that's part of the purposes of God for me and the role I play in the Plan of Salvation. (Which will be explained more on this website.)"
Wow!!
That whole thing is disturbing – and very deceitful.
"Although, I cannot deny that culturally, it can be a challenge for me with other Latter-day Saints since there are not a lot of other Latter-day Saints with same gender attraction."
A cultural challenge? Are you kidding? I was a mormon for more than 20 years and never ever ever ever saw a person with same sex attraction active in the church.
The worst part of all was at the end:
"I love to pay tithes. Just 10% of my income that I wouldn't have if I haven't been blessed with it, goes to the Lord's church. I don't make much so I wish I can give more than what my 10% is. Of course, there's a great benefit to that – it's tax deductible! LOL I love the gospel!"
Well, i never heard any bishop use that(tax deductible) in a sacrament meeting when encouraging members to pay tithing.
"I think the gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses so much more than just the Bible, the scriptures and the Church. It's about why I'm here on here and why I should love the people around me. It's about my family and my life. It's definitely about making this world a better place. "We love thy law, we will obey"
More than just the Bible? what an insult! The Bible contains the words of Christ – the words of eternal life!!!!!
This sounds a lot like those emergent/purpose driven churches, it´s not about learning who God is through His word, it´s about my experience and feelings.
The gospel encompasses more than the mormon church? Really? uhhuahuauhauhauha
So why do you waste so much time writing all that garbage promoting it?
Thank you, grindael, for posting that link – the mormon church has officially sold its soul to the world.
And before Jim Olsen says that the world is prostitution or something that ugly, no, the world is everything that goes contrary to Christ and His teachings.
And don´t come and tell me that the 12 original apostles were the first PR company ever organized…they died horrible deaths to defend the truth without compromising their teachings to look more appealing to the world.
If the Mormon church was the Lord´s church they would do the same even today – they would consider persecution a blessing.
"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4)
Jim Olsen said
How do you view these verses in light of the fact that what JS and BY did in Multiple wives and lying cheating and stealing, etc.
Jim Olsen said
See here's the problem. The Mormon church thinks they have a great product but they need a better package. So the new package they've created has smiling, happy, positive folks who seem to be enjoying the benefits of this great product. The problem is, the Mormon church wants to keep the warning labels off of the package and they don't want to list the ingredients. They just want happy, happy even though the product is spiritually toxic and leads to spiritual death. The Mormon church is like a rouge drug company that wants to hide the side effects of their bad product. The slow spiritual death as a result of ingesting the Mormon pill isn't often apparent to the Mormon who thinks and believes that the course of treatment is working when it's really killing him or her.
PS I'm not sure if the old syntax works in this new system, so here goes…
Jim wrote
The simplest and most robust definition of "Christian" that I can think of is a person who loves and worships Jesus Christ, like the first Christians in Luke 24:52 and elsewhere.
You might admire Jesus, which is commendable, but so do Moslems and a whole host of other non-Christan peoples. Do you actually worship him? If you do, you might find yourself at odds with some of the express directions handed down by the senior guys in your movement.
I ask this because it is one of those characteristics that set the first Christians apart from their Jewish and pagan neighbors. Further, it is plainly apparent to me that it is the ultimate destination that the Christian scriptures aim to take us to (e.g. the concluding verses of Luke, the grand denoument of Revelation etc).
Also, I couldn't agree with you more about using words in the way that normal people interpret them. That's why I have such a problem with your 8th Article of Faith. It sets up the expectation in the mind of the hearer that the Bible actually means something important to you. Given the prompt dismissal of the Bible by your prophets whenever it obstructs them in their promotion of their peculiar doctrines, and your commitment to follow them, that's not the case, is it?
wyomingwilly,
We only seek clarity in understanding where it is possible.
When todays polygamists are called mormons- the average person makes the connection to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We obviously do not want people to believe that these polygamists belong to our organization. We have the right to define our organization and who belongs to it.
When EVs say mormons are not Christians- the average person interprets that to mean that we do not believe that Jesus Christ was divine or that He was the Savior of the world. That is incorrect.
And it is the evangelicals who are very willing to accept such misunderstandings in society. They even go so far as to promote them and become false witnesses in the process.
Martin,
Why do people have to say such exaggerated things to make their point? The Bible doesn't mean anything to me?
It is interesting for me to read on this forum what I believe- wow, I am really out there. I wish people would have told me this before now.
But seriously,
I believe Jesus was and is the Only Begotten Son of God
I believe Jesus is the only Savior of the whole World
I believe Jesus created the earth and everything on it.
I believe Jesus was perfect and never sinned.
I believe Jesus had power over death and was the first to be resurrected.
I believe Jesus was divine.
I believe the only way to true happiness is to follow Jesus.
If you still claim I am not a Christian, than your opinion could not mean less to me, and I hope it means nothing to others.
By the way, our statement about the Bible in the 8th AoF is in complete agreement with any other Christian faith, accept those who believe the translation they read from is inerrant. Which translation do you use? Why?
And I heard a popular radio evangelical preacher just yesterday report that 50% of the youth in evangelical churches believe Jesus sinned.
Are you willing to guess how many active LDS youth would say the same thing?
You folks have some work to do. Why are you wasting your time here?
f_melo,
I believe in Jesus Christ of the Bible. It doesn't make any difference what "tradition" says. Tell me what authority that "tradition" has? And as if that "tradition" is a monolithic, uniform set of conclusions. Hah.
I am not creating any definition of Christian- I am only applying the definition used by most people in society as reflected in the dictionary.
jack,
I feel sorry for you. Sincerely.
Jim
OJ,
I think it's odd that you would feel sorry for one who has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. But, then again, Mormons don't truly understand what that means.
Praying for you as always…
I've always thought that it would be a good idea if we had a law like the "truth in lending" laws for religion. In the truth in lending laws there's a requirement that full disclosure be made regarding the terms of the loan and the final cost to the consumer. I guess as a firm believer in religious freedom I couldn't inact the law, but it would keep cults from not fully disclosing what they believe.
The Mormons now have these cute little "I'm just like you" ads that act as another layer of buffering material between the projected image and what the religion is all about. I'm guessing that people would like to know up front that Mormons don't believe in the same God as historic, orthodox Christianity. It might also be helpful to know that Mormons believe that there are millions perhaps billions of gods in the universe each with their own planets to rule. Another fact would be that the prospect will have to pay 10% of their income as an entry fee into the Mormon temple which serves as the setting for doing the works necessary to reach personal god status.
Mormons don't disclose these things because they know to do so would negatively effect the convert bottom line numbers. So even if a person doesn't participate in the church any longer, some won't go through the process of having their name removed because of the hassle. So the name can stay on the rolls and make the church look like it has more members than in reality actually participate in the religion.
Missionaries are under a lot of pressure to get people dunked. It's all about the numbers. If someone actually stays with the program, that's a bonus.
There's a line in Mormonism that goes: "If you want to know about Mormonism, ask a Mormon." Now wouldn't that be about the worst thing a person could possible do? What Mormon is ever going to give someone a straight answer about anything pertaining to Mormonism? Mormonism is a big shell game where the "pea" hidden under one of three shells, is moved about in a constant whirl in an attempt to misdirect the person trying to guess where the pea is. The truth is the enemy of Mormonism because the truth unmasks the cult and without deception, well you get the picture.