The article is here.
“Among those revelations recorded in 1843 in the Doctrine and Covenants, a book of Mormon scripture, were teachings about plural marriage [link to D&C 132).”
Section 132 actually wasn’t added until 1876. Until 1876, then-section 101 (removed in 1876) actually forbade polygamy. In 1843 the “revelation” was still secret, and Smith was vehemently denying polygamy (as mentioned later in article) while busily accumulating women (even women already married to living husbands).
I am glad they give fundamentalist Anne Wilde a voice:
“If those are eternal doctrines, then how can man change them?”
Great question. Sure seems like Mormon leaders led their own people astray.
CNN also drops a bomb that the mainstream LDS Church doesn’t want public:
“In fact, even if LDS Church members don’t practice plural marriage on earth, their scripture still teaches that in heaven it is possible. Mormons also believe that families are sealed together for eternity.”
Woops. That’s embarrassing (particularly the first part, and the second part considered in conjunction with the first part).
Make no mistake, Mormons didn’t practice polygamy swimming down the stream of American culture. Joseph Smith re-introduced it in the face of a contrary culture. He rooted it in what he thought were eternal patterns, and Mormon leaders went on to further erect a theology around it. It was suspended in 1890 (with an “uhhh, we are actually serious this time” in 1904), and not only is the Mormon Church unclear over whether it could be re-introduced before the return of Jesus, it is noncommittal over the grandiose theological undergirding leaders once gave it. For now, it hangs in the air. The embarrassing past is neither renounced nor fully embraced. And the future remains open.
This theologically informed practice of Mormon polygamy (even when considered apart from all the abuses and cultural weirdness), rooted in the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor, distanced by cowards Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith, is ever-relevant to mainstream Mormonism. Even while claiming a heritage in its leaders, the LDS Church refuses to take any responsibility for splinter groups and their practice of polygamy. Like rubbing a dog’s nose in a carpet it soiled, the CNN article makes the LDS Church face a piece of its unsavory history.
You did this, Mormonism. This is your doing. You are responsible for the very existence of modern-day polygamous splinter groups. Your prophets led people astray. Yet you throw fundamentalist polygamists under the bus and disown them with a vengeance. They’re your Mormon family, but you don’t even want them to use the label “Mormon.”
“I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, ‘I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,’ and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.'” (Psalm 32:5)
Ah!! Okay, what Anne Wilde said — “If those are eternal doctrines, then how can man change them?” — that is the EXACT question I eventually asked my Mormon friend once we got pretty far into our debate / discourse / conversation. And you know what she answered? Nothing. Nothing! That question was part of an email exchange when she decided to stop answering my questions, that I was overwhelming her and frustrating her.
But isn't that the thing? Modern-day Mormons have all sorts of excuses for why Joseph Smith had many wives (if they admit to it at all). One time, my friend told me it was because there were too many women and because they were all widowed or abandoned or old and needed taken care of. Since I knew this to be untrue (in fact, many of his wives were barely 18!), I called her on it. She denied having ever told me that they were widowed or abandoned. She said: If I said it was just to care for the elderly, I didn't mean to. I know a lot of them were young girls, and some of them weren't treated very well by their husbands. I know that. Unfortunately I no longer have the original conversation but I definitely remember her saying that his wives were old or unable to take care of themselves.
A question for those of you who know more than me — my friend says that the decision to end polygamy was not a revelation from God about it being forbidden but rather just a "manifesto" to go in line with the law. She said: The manifesto that ended polygamy—was not a revelation, it was a manifesto signed by the president of the church. The fact that you can now be excommunicated for practicing polygamy is more closely linked to the 12th Article of Faith, and that we will honor, obey, and sustain the law. It was asked to be stopped, it was stopped, we will follow those regulations.
So then the question is — why isn't it being practiced today? Why aren't the Mormons standing up for separation of church and state and freedom of religion and demanding that they be allowed to practice their religion as Joseph Smith "divined" it?
Ouch.
"y friend told me it was because there were too many women and because they were all widowed or abandoned or old and needed taken care of"
That´s exactly what i was taught growing up in the church. That´s pure myth, i´m glad you called her on it.
" Modern-day Mormons have all sorts of excuses for why Joseph Smith had many wives"
I´ve had people tell me i couldn´t judge Joseph because i wasn´t there to know what really happened and why he did what he did. Mormons will also say that the whole thing was difficult for Joseph because the law of polygamy was something very difficult to deal with and he was suffering to fulfill it(they say that because of some quotes i don´t remember where). Yeah, right…
" The manifesto that ended polygamy—was not a revelation" It is a revelation,it is even in the Doctrine and Covenants!
This is a quote from Official declaration 1: "I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . ."
"The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for… "
"Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed."
While "God" did not say with all the words "stop polygamy", he "manifested to us". If your friend is saying that it isn´t the result of revelation that means that the church is being guided by the will of men and not by the spirit of god, as they are so proud to affirm every General Conference.
To read the full Official Declaration 1 go to: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1
I have heard this before also, This is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard. I can say this because I am a man, I have never in my life meet a man yet, out side of Homosexuals that would ever say, I would love to have only one women at time. Every man I have ever meet has said or felt, Out side of trying to live a moral life, (Atheist) Or a person living according to what God has stated, Christian or a person following their gods, JW'S Islam, Buddhist ect, They would do as their belief teaches and live the moral life and have only one women, But these same men would if God were not real and could live how ever they wanted have two or more women at one time, So JS was living that way, and all men that I know would also if they could, So I do not believe for one minute JS was really struggling to live that way.
What gets me is the fact that JS did it in secret, that he hid it from his own wife and had to have a "revelation" to her that what he was doing was God's will. And even though she outwardly and vocally disagreed with it (despite the argument that she was okay with it), there is evidence in letters, journals, etc. that state that he told his plural wives not to tell Emma. Doesn't secrecy connote, oftentimes, shame? I can't imagine that if he was truly doing God's will, he would have had to hide it from his wife.
The thing that gets me is, The God I serve would never tell a guy, take many wives and if your wife does not like it then to bad. Also My God would never say, tell your wife if she does not agree and obey I will kill her, Yet LDS believe this. Wheres Murdock? What did he say about liars being thrust into hell? O yea, He's another hit and run Mormon who cannot defend what he believes.
"Doesn't secrecy connote, oftentimes, shame?"
Exactly. He was an adulterer, that´s why he needed secrecy because that would disqualify him as a prophet in the eyes of the people. That´s what led him to make it all a revelation from god.
Also, if you stay around mormons you´ll hear eventually that young adults will have a special "witness" of the spirit telling them which man/woman to date and marry. I´ve never done that myself but often times in institute classes you hear of those stories, or someone shares his/her own personal story about how they felt a person was the "right one", and told that person "the spirit told me you were the one" but the person didn´t feel anything and rejected it. They will then explain that you might have felt it, but if the other person doesn´t feel it as well, she/he has the free-will to choose. Obviously that doesn´t apply to actual spiritual testimony regarding so-called doctrines of the restoration though. They use a double-standard when things don´t work the way they should.
Then some institute teachers will joke about it saying that men mistake hormones for a feeling of the spirit. I wonder if they think that was true as well of Joseph Smith. I know that was exactly what happened.
"Sure seems like Mormon leaders led their own people astray."
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!
And why? would God's true church have to deceive people to succeed? Would He employ that method? Face it. The god of Mormonism needs every subtle deceitful trick he can use… and he;s keeping the folks in such confusion trying to justify and rationalize their beliefs that they can not see plain basic problems like this, but will do the same old: deny and ignore
Hay, where's Ralph when we need him. He's got the best rationalizations I've ever heard about why Joseph Smith's polygamy was just an extension of OT practice and how it wasn't unusual for young girls to marry in the 1800s in America. This, of course is not just a stretch, it is folly beyond belief. But I've learned, for TBMs anything will work. In Mormonism we get multiple gods and multiple wives. Anything that struck Joseph Smith's fancy. I don't think any of us can really appreciate (if that's a good use of the word) the depth of the psychological malfunction Mormonism produces in its true believers. I agree with what Walter Martin said; "Mormons can think rationally in all aspects of their life but not in their religion."
I get a kick out of Mormons telling us that with the death of the apostles real Christianity disappeared and was then restored by that prophet Joseph Smith. So we are to believe that the apostles were polygamists, they worshiped in temples where they practiced Masonic rituals, and wore magic underwear. The reason we don't have any of this in the Bible or any writings of the Church Fathers is because of a great, gigantic conspiracy. Ya gotta love these people.BTW, the apostle Paul didn't have a wife so he never made it to the CK.
It's really funny how Mormons can make Mormonism work for them. The manifesto was not a revelation. It was a manifesto. Now anyone, other than a Mormon, wouldn't be able to think like this, express it and maintain any amount of personal integrity. But to a Mormon it all makes sense because at one time they accepted a feeling as proof that Mormonism is true. From that point on, they use their mental shears to cut the puzzle pieces to fit their Mormon narrative.
falcon, you said, " But to a Mormon it all makes sense because at one time they accepted
a feeling as proof that Mormonism is true. "
I can't help but think of the sincere Mormons in the 1830"s and 1840's who relied on the
personal revelation, a feeling that confirmed to them that their prophet was worthy of being
sustained at Conference,as obviously he was faithful to Church law on marriage and
thus also faithful to his wedding vows also. My, were they fooled ! Sadly, this same type
of scenario happened again from 1891-1904 . Incredible. LDS are taught to still , " follow
the prophet ". No thanks. I'll follow JESUS.
I don´t think the early mormons were convinced by feelings. I think it was Joseph Smith´s "carisma" and the angelical "manifestations" behind it, adding to the desire of some people to have something new, of participating in something revolutionary that would give them a spotlight like never before, etc., etc. i don´t know much about psychology, but when i read old stuff from David Whitmer and others, i don´t think they believed it because of feelings… they actually did believe the message because they understood it. Obviously that was before Joseph started messing with the nature of God, masonry, etc.
f-melo, By "feelings" I am think ing of the witness of the Spirit, the inner conviction that
is usually manifested by emotional feelings, as many Mormons would say. Since I have
never been an LDS I have to go by what I've heard from sincere LDS etc. Your insight
is much respected on this .
ww
wyomingwilly, you´re not wrong on mormons getting a "witness" by feelings – the way you described it is exactly how it works today.
I was just bringing that up because i don´t think that´s exactly how it worked back then. I think the early mormons were more objective when it came to spiritual witness. For example, David Whitmer didn´t ascribe his testimony of the translation of the Book of Mormon to a burning in the bosom – he attributed it to the fact that Joseph used a magic stone which miraculously provided him with a translation and that was why he believed the BoM could not have come from man because it didn´t come from natural means.
Today though, all you have to do is to get people to cry and they´ll believe anything you say, and if you ask them why they believe what they believe, they´ll say "because i felt the witness of the "Holy Ghost… it´s a feeling of peace the devil can´t imitate"…
I've got a great book here that you may want to pick-up sometime. It's not a cover-to-cover kind of a read, but the type of book you pick-up and read a part here and there. It's called "The Art of Seduction". I actually bought it so my daughter could read it and be prepared if any sleeze ball tried to put some moves on her. On page 97 starts a chapter titled "Charisma and Seduction". Here is a sample describing this type of Charismatic:
"The face of the Charismatic is usually animated, full of energy, desire, alertness-the look of a lover, one that is instantly appealing, even vaguely sexual. We happily follow Charismatics because we like to be led, particularly by people who promise adventure or prosperity. We lose ourselves in their cause, become emotionally attached to them, feel more alive by believing in them-we fall in love. Charisma plays on repressed sexuality, creates an erotic charge. Yet the origins of the word lie not in sexuality but in religion, and religion remains deeply embedded in modern charisma………They express a vision. We may not realize it, but in their presence we have a kind of religious experience: we believe in these people, without having any rational evidence for doing so."
I believe that even today, Joseph Smith reaches back from the grave through his writings and the folk stories about him that are past down from the oral tradition of Mormonism. In a diabolical way, the guy was a genius, abet an evil one. What he was able to capture and transmit, was the spirit of revivalism that was prevalent in his day. He used that energy like a snake oil salesman. It's a good thing that we have the internet today so that the questioning Mormon, at the contemplative stage, can get the information they need to break the strangle-hold that the spirit of Mormonism has on them.
I find it very instructive that the SLC LDS still have polygamy on the books. In-other-words, they still believe in it but they don't practice it. They don't practice it due to social and political pressure. So we know where their hearts lie in regards to this principle. I wonder how modern Mormon women would feel about polygamy if suddenly their husbands would be allowed to practice it again. My guess is that there would be a gigantic split in the SLC LDS sect. We know that some women will have to put up with other wives in the CK if they should proceed their husbands in death and he should marry and be Temple sealed (shrink wrapped too?) to another woman.
Once Mormons stop drinking the LDS brand of Kool Aid all of this appears to them as totally hypocritical and shameful.
Sarah. I love your critical thinking and asking questions. My question has always been. Brigham Young took the Mormons to Salt Lake City, somewhere he could create their own utopia and could practice their religion in peace. The religion meant practicing polygamy because it could not be practiced in Missouri. There were no laws in Utah or they were out of the 'boundaries' of the law and create a new city. When a child at our zoo is wearing a BYU t-shirt, are they not 'agreeing' with polygamy. Brigham had I thought 54 wives. How is this not important since the man who said this revelation was from God wrote the Book of Mormon?
Why was his second wife underage and a surprise to his first wife?
Please correct me if I am wrong. A mormon man may have more than one wife in heaven (ie. first wife dies, marries another wife). They are eternally sealed in heaven. The reverse is not true. A woman with two husbands (ie. first husband dies), she is NOT eternally sealed in heaven to both. So, in fact, the modern mormonism does practice polygamy in heaven.
Joseph Smith also hid polygamy from his OWN CHURCH for ten years. If it was from God, why didn't he tell the church?
FullDisclosure, he not only kept his romantic pursuits hidden from those that followed
him, but he made sure that the offical position of his church to the public was to be
advertised as one man marry one woman etc. His behavior was in part to blame
for what eventually ended in his untimely death in Carthage.
ww
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO you had to go down that path huh? I've read about this and I'm trying to remember what the ruling is. Man is sealed to woman. Man dies. Woman marries another man. Do they get married in the temple and if they do who is she sealed to? Oh man, what's the answer to that?????????? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I think that's one of the things they'll have revealed later. It's a deep truth. OK, a single woman dies and never married. Does she get assigned to one of the gods? Which god gets to decide which god she is assigned to?
I'm sorry, these are deeeeeeeeeeep truths. There's so much we don't know. It will be revealed later. Just keep believing and paying your tithe!
because they were not ready to accept it. Just like today when the missionaries don´t tell investigators that they´ll have to go through masonic ceremonies to get to heaven.
If they know this, they will feel it is something of the devil and won´t join… so, they have to do some brainwashing first…
They have always believed in heavenly polygamy.
"he is NOT eternally sealed in heaven to both"
Now, if you want to drive a mormon crazy ask them what would happen if a woman lost her husband and got married to another man and had children with him. Who would the children be with in the Celestial Kingdom?
So much for eternal families.
If i were a mormon i´d never get married to a widow because for all i know, i could lose my children to another man in heaven… that´s a horrible thought, right?
I much prefer the Christian way. We´ll all be part of the same family, we´ll all be children of God, and we´ll stay together for eternity anyways.
f-melo, I think you aptly stated how simple the truth of God's Word is on this, in stark
contrast to the doctrine created by the " modern-day prophets and apostles " of the
Mormon church.
ww
Sarah,
I wonder if Joseph's dalliances were the motive behind Emma's attempt to poison him on two occasions by spiking his coffee.
This would be the funniest, most ironic joke in Mormonism, except that it's true, at least according to Brigham Young. However you read it, it's not good for Mormonism.
Let's see if we can count the sins in this story…
Brigham Young, The Essential Brigham Young, pp.188-189.
I have just posted the following on the CNN blog…
Several posters here have suggested that the Bible commands polygamy.
Actually, it doesn't (contrary to the assertions of Joseph Smith in D&C 132), but the fact remain that several prominent men in the Old Testament had many wives (Abraham, David, Solomon). It could be argued that because these guys were the "good" guys, they must have been commanded by God to enter into their polygamous relationships. I don't buy this, because the "good" guys often got it wrong, as their respective narratives show.
Further, the polygamous marriages in the Bible weren't quite the picture of domestic bliss. Famously, Abraham's first wife. Sarah, tries to kill Hagar (wife number 2, see Genesis 16). Perhaps the Hebrews learned the lessons about polygamy and its complicit polytheism the hard way, concluding that the King "…must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray' (Deuteronomy 17:17). Broadly, I think the Hebrews had settled on the one-husband-one-wife and one-God-one-nation paradigm around the time much of the OT was written, around the Babylonian exile in the 6th Century BC. By the time Jesus and his followers appeared on the scene, it was considered the norm, for very good reasons (see 1 Timothy 3:2, 3:12 etc.).
Monogamy was also the norm in 19th Century North America, which is unsurprising considering the nation's Christian heritage and the religious revivals in the decades preceding Joseph Smith and the advent of Mormonism. This is important, considering that Smith re-introduced polygamy (and polytheism) in the face of a monogamist (and monotheistic) culture.
The Brown family would not be polygamist if it were not for Joseph Smith's religious ventures, and it is disingenuous for modern Mormons to claim otherwise.
It's interesting to read how some faithful LDS in the past used to describe their practice of plural
marriage. Particularly how they termed it as being part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I was taught
that the Gospel was the "good news", Jesus dying for us so that we could be reconciled to God,
"peace with God through the blood of Christ" etc. [ Col.1:20 ] . The Gospel is simply definded in
1Cor. 15:1-4. How polygamy could be "good news" to a Mormon woman escapes me .Many
describe it as a very trying ordeal for them. Was it really the gospel for Mormons? According
to Bathsheba Smith , wife of Joseph Smith's cousin, she claims : " Being thoroughly convinced
as well as my husband, that the doctrine of plurality of wives was from God, and having a fixed
determination to attain to Celestial glory , I felt to embrace the whole Gospel, and that it was for
my husbands exaltation that he should obey the revelation on Celestial marriage…."
[ Bathsheba Smith autobiography, p.11 ]
cont.
Practicing polygamy = embrasing the " whole Gospel " ? Since the Church abandoned the
practice of polygamy in 1890, does that mean Mormons are now preaching a gospel that is
not whole? A partial gospel ? For a man to add an additional female to his marriage
arrangement, or for a wife to share her husband with other women does'nt seem to me
to be the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems to be more like what Gal.1:8-9 is
talking about.
ww
They excuse it all the time. My friend flat out ignores my questions about polygamy and just continues to say, we don't do that anymore. But how can you follow a religion where that was a divine revelation and then just ignore it? I don't understand how they can ignore how awful Joseph Smith was. I mean, I can understand, back then, being tricked with charisma and the like. But today? Seriously, folks, come on.
Ha. I've read a Joseph Smith biography, and I have one of Emma waiting for me. I've been dallying in writing a fictional memoir of her life, and this is fantastic. I kind of want to write those scenes right now.
My daughter is heading off to a wedding reception for a Mormon friend today. The friend is the "first" wife as the polygamist use to refer to themselves by their particular number. I guess it was a status thing to be wife #1. Now days a man/god can collect more wives if the current wife dies, right?
Anyway, I told my daughter that if the reception turns into a subtle recruiting event for the LDS to be sure to give her name, address and phone number to the missionaries because I'd love to have them out to the house. I won't discuss polygamy with them because, as bad as it was/is, I'd rather concentrate on what I feel is the main issue which is the nature of God.
In a way I kind of feel sorry for Mormons having to defend things like polygamy and magic rocks but I think it's much worse to have to defend polytheism and the idea that Mormon men are to morph into gods.
It would be kind of like finding out someone you love very much is cheating on you. It hurts so bad that at first you look away and pretend nothing is happening… it takes a while to finally acknowledge that things are not ok and finally face the truth.
It´s very traumatic.
" does that mean Mormons are now preaching a gospel that is not whole? A partial gospel ?"
Great point!!!
Here are the mormon good news: The church of jesus that was lost on the first century is now restored through joseph smith. In order for you "enjoy" the blessings of that gospel, you just simply need to submit to mormon authorities and do as you are told, and you´ll become a god and you will be able to enjoy up there all the life we kept you from enjoying here!
They still have the courage to call that "simple"(when you look at the entire plan of salvation, and all the commandments/requirements)…
i hated to defend polygamy and the whole "blacks and the priesthood" issue as a mormon… i wasn´t convinced of the answers at all, i just repeated them and trusted the spiritual witness i had saying that one day all would be made clear.
I also always felt weird when telling people we believed we would become gods one day… it never sounded right, but i always ignored that. What convinced me of it, was the explanation that just like here on earth parents raise children so that the children one day could become like them(having a family of their own), the same was with our Heavenly parents – but that only makes sense if you´re wrong about the nature of God. So i agree with falcon that´s the most important issue to be discussed.
I´m so, so glad i don´t have to defend that stuff anymore, and that the reason i felt weird about that wasn´t because there was something wrong with me, but that the whole thing was made up…
Also the first time i went to the temple i found those clothes ridiculous…but i felt i was offending God, so i didn´t entertain the thought anymore… i was so relieved to find out that stuff wasn´t for real!
it can get even more traumatic for people who have dedicated their entire lives working for the church in the hope of being accepted by God and of earning exaltation in the highest degree of glory.
To find out that the entire work of a lifetime was worth nothing, and worse, you taught false doctrine and led people astray.
That thought disturbed me so much… what relief was to be able to trust in Christ for my salvation!
by their fruits you will know them!!
that sounds about right!
The real fruits of mormonism might look righteous on the outside(except for polygamy, and other bizarre stuff that isn´t practiced or taught today) – but the inside doesn´t resemble anything that Jesus taught. What mormonism produces, its fruits, are modern day Pharisees and as you well put it before, Martin, it produces atheists as well.
I think my other Mormon favorite is that they are superior because they have a living prophet and orthodox Christian churches don't have living prophets. Can Mormons prove first of all that their prophet isn't basically a man masquerading as a prophet and two, that orthodox Christian churches don't have prophets?
What we can say is that Mormons "claim" to have a living prophet. Just take the issue here, polygamy. Remember how poor Joseph Smith was dragged kicking and screaming into practicing this "principle". He even went so far as to tell one of his seductees that an angel with a sword appeared to him, saying that (the angel) would kill him if he didn't marry more women. Let's face it, this living Mormon prophet was under intense pressure to get on with it. This having sex with all of those women was a real sacrifice for poor Joe.
BTW, Smith's prophetic track record, along with that of the other living prophets hasn't been all that good. It's a good thing that they invented "progressive" revelation so that they could do some switcho changeo when previous prophesies didn't work out as planned. That's really bailed them out with Smith and Young.
Martin,
What about David? he had wives in the hundreds. Yet, he was corrected for having an affair out of those marriages. Is there anything that indicates that he was wrong for having so many wifes an concibines?
Since it is Reformation Sunday I'll take a little license here. How about we consider that Martin Luther was a prophet. I don't think it's much of a stretch to put him in that category. Could we say that Martin Luther reestablished first century Christianity after it had lost its way. In fact, I think I'll put all of the reformers in the prophet mode. They were guided by the Holy Spirit to reestablish the Church to its first century doctrinal roots. Here's a little of Luther:
"I was seized with the conviction that I must understand (Paul's) letter to the Romans….but to that moment one phrase in chapter 1 stood in my way. I hated the idea, 'in it the righteousness of God is revealed'…..I hated the righteous God who punishes sinners…. At last, meditating day and night and by the mercy of God, I….began to understand that the righteousness of God is that through which the righteous live by a gift of God, namely by faith…….Here I felt as if I were entirely born again and had entered paradise itself through gates that had been flung open."
Luther, BTW, had one God and one wife.
falcon, I'm glad you added that part of taking , " a little license " . If I remember correctly Luther
said a few goofy things at times . I think we're on safe ground with Jesus and his apostles
[ N.T. ] . Just a thought.
ww
ww,
What you need to remember is when Luther said/wrote goofy stuff, he was just giving his opinion. Don't you just love that escape clause? The problem with the Mormon prophets is that they were always saying/writing goofy stuff. Just contemplate the difference in intellectual horse power between Luther and Smith. If it were a fight between those two the referee would stop it because Smith would be getting pummeled. How Smith got away with what he said and did was that he'd spiritualize it. In-other-words, he'd have a vision or a revelation and all the Mormons would accept it without question. I should say "some" of the Mormons would accept it. There were a number of them that just weren't buying his polygamy "principle" or his "men to god" scenario. But it's the revelations and visions he claimed that really charge up the Mormon troops. They believe the guy who ran around looking for treasure at night with a magic rock was really on to something.
People in old testament times practiced polygamy, there wasn´t anything saying it was forbidden.
What is wrong is to say that God "commanded" David or anyone to have multiple wives.
God never ordained polygamy.
thank you! I appreciate that!
man, i can´t believe i was actually impressed by all that feel-good nonsense from those so-called prophets and apostles of the mormon church.
That quote from Luther is just beautiful, that i can say without any fear or doubt, it is inspired! It really inspired me as well, and gave the desire to praise God for the wonderful gift of His Son!!!
Thank you for posting something truly great!
Luther actually knew how to translate languages. His German translation of the Bible had more influence upon the German language than the King James Version had on English. Though almost 460 years old, Luther's translation is still sold and read widely. Contrast that with Joseph Smith's comical "translation" of the King James Bible. Smith was not only a fraud but a pompous pretender without equal. He just sat down and changed the KJB to suit his own fancy. Mormons are foolish enough to believe he actually was receiving messages from God.
*In 1527, a terrible plague struck Wittenberg, and virtually all of Luther's students fled for their lives. The elector/prince begged Luther to leave town also, but Luther felt pastors should stay and help the afflicted. Because he and his wife Katherine took in so many sick and dying people, their house had to be quarantined even after the plague ended.
*Luther was so generous he was sometimes taken advantage of……yet he believed no one would become poor by practicing charity. "God divided the hand into fingers so that money would slip through," he said.
*Even on his wedding night, Luther couldn't refuse a person in need. At 11 p.m., after all the guests had left, radical reformer Andreas Karlstadt knocked at the door. Largely because Luther fiercely opposed him, Karlstadt had fled town. But now, when Karlstadt was fleeing the Peasants' War and needed shelter, Luther took him in.
*Luther said he would be glad for all his works to perish except On The Bondage of the Will, which emphasizes people's inability to save themselves, and his Small Catechism, which explains the faith to children.
Christian History, Issue 39
falcon, You've always reminded us how important it is to test a prophet's teachings by
God's Word. Because of the fact that Jesus warned us all to be leary of those who claim
to be prophets, it is vital that we not fall for a prophet's personality or even if he lives a moral
lifestyle. Sadly, so many LDS have fallen for the promise of Mormon prophets who tell them
" God will never allow the prophet to lead you astray ," The Gospel Principles manual once
taught LDS that , " the Lord will never allow the President of the Church to teach us false
doctrine." Looking over the teaching history of Mormon prophets and apostles, we see that
this is simply not true. They have proven to be unreliable to interpret God's Word. May the
precious Mormon people come to see this and place their trust in Him who will never fail
the test of reliability, the Prophet to end all prophets— Jesus . Heb.7:25
falcon, it's humbling to know that we are free to follow the true Prophet, this prophet not
only can be trusted to be reliable as a guide in scriptural truth but He can also give us
eternal life ! He thought enough of us to warn us of those who would come in the future
claiming to be guides in scriptural truth — Matt 24:1, 11, 24 . One such end time/ latter day
prophet claimed to reveal God's truth about marriage by incorporating it into the law of
his newly " restored" church. It was claimed that this marriage law RESTRICTED a man
to marry one woman , i.e. monogamy. [ D&C 101 ]. The very next prophet of this " restored"
church taught : " Monogamy, or RESTRICTION BY LAW to one wife, is no part of the
economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the
Roman empire…..Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians
as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of
robbers. "
cont.
This endtime/latter-day prophet also went so far as to teach about polygamy that,
"….the Lord's servants have always practiced it. And is that religion popuar in heaven ?
It is the only religion popular there…." [ Deseret News 8-6-1862 ]
I'll follow the Prophet whose teaching is recorded at Matt 19:1-6