This video is described on You Tube as a “Humorous clip showing what activities are NOT suitable for Sunday by four LDS Young Women Leaders and a husband. Made for a Youth Standards Night Program…”
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)
I'm really getting tired of people coming here and saying read this article or Go to this link, Speak for yourself and back up what you say with sources like the Bible, dont just give us links and quotes from other people telling us what they think. Speak for yourself or dont speak. Seems pretty simply.
I say that because people accuse me of not knowing scripture, yet I back up what I say from scripture and when I say to them, back up what you say, they either never reply or they say here is a link, or here's a good book to read. I dont have time to chase fairy tales and people who cannot speak for themselves.
F_melo, I just love the hypocrisy from people like Jeff. I cannot tell you how many time I have had people like Jeff tell me they are Believers and that I am not really following Jesus because I say and do things like He did. I might tell people You brood of Vipers, Or I might say, What If I called blindness down upon you, or Made a whip of cords and went after you for your actions? Then they tell me, Jesus is not like that, Jesus is love and hugs and bunny and kisses and crap like that. But then when I say I dont adhere to the sabbath, I am then told I am not following Jesus. You guys cannot have it both ways. Jesus said and did the things I said, The apostles also did them Since they clearly learned them from Jesus. Yet you guys really dont know your word and give Christians a bad name since the majority of non believers feel Christians are nothing more than a bunch of clueless idiots who believe in fairy tales. I know people feel this way since I have shared the gospel with people who tell me they feel this way.
Jeff you asked me again how I would serve God, I gave you a few responses already. But here are a few more verses.
Those to verses say, we need to please God and know His commandments.
But this third verse tells us exactly what the will of God is.
So the will of God is MY SANCTIFICATION and that I should abstain from fornication
This verse does not say, Keep the sabbath. Why is that.
Do you believe you´re getting the blessings, and if not, the punishment for not keeping the Sabbath?
I agree with you, and i find interesting how he arbitrarily selects which commandments he wants to follow while ignoring a bunch of other commandments that are just as important…
It´s hypocrisy, no question about it.
It is my duty to work it or else some one will go without certain services. If you want to you might turn off the main electrical switch and see how it would be if you did without my services on sunday.
It is interesting to note that we as people can observe people trying to keep the sabbath and still criticize them when we see one little thing that may violate the sabbath law that they are not doing. This was just a video to supplement a lesson. Anyone can take this video and twist the makers views any way they want.
Really Rick! One verse does not tell you everything. Let me simply ask, because it seems we are working from two different places. Do you believe the OT & NT are Christian scriptures?
Someone ask me why I continue to refer to others writings. I guess for two reasons:
1) I am busy with school.
2) I am not a lone-ranger Christian. Christianity did not start with me…Christianity is not "me and my Bible." We belong to a historic Christian Church. And others have done much more work in these areas than I could or can at this point.
So, there are again a few resources that might be of interest to ya'll. First, you may want to take a look at a new work <a href="http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/product_id/7328/nm/From+the+Finger+of+God%3A+The+Biblical+and+Theological+Basis+for+the+Threefold+Division+of+the+Law+%28Paperback%29/?utm_source=jdowns&utm_medium=jdowns">From the Finger of God: The Biblical and Theological Basis for the Threefold Division of the Law. The three-fold division of the law is moral, ceremonial, and civil, and the question, which laws did Jesus fulfill and therefore are no longer binding on us, and which are still binding. For example, are the 10 Commandments still binding. If so, the fourth commandment applies.
Second, it is interesting how easy ideas change in a conversation, with what seems to be no thought. I have no be defending a Sunday sabbath, only that a Sabbath remains (we know this not only from the OT, but from the NT, see Hebrews chapter 4. But if you want a defense of why the day change see here.
Third, it is quite impressive to quote scripture that seems to support you view, but you have to do more then just quote passages. Arius did this to deny the deity of Christ, but when you take the whole counsel of God, Arius did not have a leg to stand on. So, it is not about playing bible-ping-pong; I've done enough of that with the LDS. Rick quote Jesus as saying that the Sabbath is for man, then assumes that this means man can do whatever he wants on the Sabbath. This is simply reading into the text. Tell me, from exegesis, what this text means. Does it mean the Sabbath is does it mean the Sabbath is no longer binding, if so, how do you get to that point. If it means man can do what he wants on the Sabbath, why did God institute the Sabbath in the first place. Did the Pharisee add to the Sabbath things they shouldn't have…I believe we are all agreed there, but that does not negate what God did require on the Sabbbath (see Is. 58: 13-14).
Rick, in one of your comments above you said, "F_melo, I just love the hypocrisy from people like Jeff. " You say this as if you know how I live. Can you please point out my hypocrisy. If not, please do not make such an accusation of another brother in Christ.
The response to this article was "I took a look at that article, most of it were assumptions and his opinions. He failed to make a solid Biblical case for it. He also just defined Sunday as the Sabbath day, just like that – no basis on scripture there either." Defining the Sabbath as Sunday was not the purpose of the article friend, it was to ground the Sabbath in creation (i.e. God's calling one day out of seven holy, and what that means for us). It was certainly not a bunch of "assumptions and his opinions." You may not agree with his theology and exegesis, but they were not simply assumptions and opinions. The question remains, what is God teaching the people of God by setting apart this one day out of seven at the beginning, and are there, if any, implications for man.
What´s really funny is how you´ve ignored everything else, even that passage in Acts of the first council of the Church in Jerusalem where the Apostles made clear that the Law of Moses would not be imposed on the Gentiles! Seriously? You do have a need for works-righteousness, don´t you?
Do you believe the book of Acts is Christian scripture?
You also haven´t answered – are you circumsized or not?
" We belong to a historic Christian Church. And others have done much more work in these areas than I could or can at this point."
Is that why you believe that the Sabbath is on Sunday?
"The three-fold division of the law is moral, ceremonial, and civil, and the question, which laws did Jesus fulfill and therefore are no longer binding on us, and which are still binding. For example, are the 10 Commandments still binding. If so, the fourth commandment applies."
Right, let´s go search for which parts of the Law Jesus skipped, so that we can fulfill them. But see, that reasoning shows how clueless you are about your own beliefs. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath day, didn´t he? Is that why you´re trying to keep that commandment, because Jesus didn´t fulfill it?
And if the 4th commandment is still binding, again you haven´t answered me, when you don´t keep it, will you admit that you´re worthy of the death penalty, or you just cherry pick what parts of the commandment you feel like keeping it?
and since i´m not sure if you can read or not, let me paste again here this part of the Book of Acts:
"Acts 20:22-29
"Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Sir, do you believe that the Book of Acts is Christian Scripture?
Between obeying you, and obeying the Apostles who lived with Jesus and learned from Him, i´ll obey the Apostles, thank you very much.
"Second, it is interesting how easy ideas change in a conversation, with what seems to be no thought. I have no be defending a Sunday sabbath, only that a Sabbath remains "
Do Mormons and Presbyterians go through the same school of word twisting?
You´re not defending a Sunday Sabbath, and a couple of lines later you post a link that defends the Sunday Sabbath? What a joke. Mormons are better at that, because they can make up stuff because they have a "prophet". You should learn a lesson or two from them, seriously…
I can image that guy´s arguments even before listening to that audio.
I'm ignoring everything else my friend. I can not answer every single question thrown at me…it would be an improper use of my time to do so. Can you please tell me what Luke means here regarding the Law of Moses. As you may know, "Law" can mean various things (i.e. 10 commandments, first five books, of Moses, etc.). You can not simply assume he is addressing the Sabbath at this point or even the 10 commendments (as if they are done away with). The context is deling with the Jews requiring the Gentles to do something for salvation. I've never said one has to keep the sabbath for salvation.
I'm not sure why you are so bent on knowing if my private part was cut, but since you keep asking, yes it was. Since it was done as a baby, I had no say in it.
My friend, lean to read words in context, if you can't I will not continue with you. I believe the Sabbath is a creation mandate and is for all manking to keep. Sunday Sabbath is another issue, which I believe to be the case. The article you refered to that said was a refuting of my point, was dealing with Sunday as the Sabbath. Not sure how this was refuting my point when I've been defending the idea of the Sabbath. Dr. Pipa's article is not defending a Sunday Sabbath, but that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance. I then refered you to an audio that defends the changing of the day.
Ok, let´s see those Scriptures:
Gen. 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Gen 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
Gen.2:24 24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Gen. 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
"Just as the ordinances of work and marriage are permanent, so is the ordinance of the Sabbath."
First off, ordinances of work and marriage? That´s weird. Wait, let me perform the ordinance of breathing the breath of life that Gog gave me……. Ok, let´s continue. You know what´s the difference between those passages? That work and marriage where directly commanded to Adam and Eve then. You know what was not commanded to them? To keep the Sabbath they holy… Btw, where is the Garden of Eden, you know, God gave the ordinance of Garden of Eden keeping too, it´s just as binding as the Sabbath Day by your logic!
"We are to treat as holy what God declares to be holy."
Jeff, do you eat pork, or any unclean animal? I seriously hope not!
"(see he book)"
I don´t have to, the Apostles already said in the Book of Acts that the Gentiles don´t need to worry about it. I´ll go with them.
What is the fourth commandment grounded (i.e., what is it's bases) in?
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy…For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."
"It was certainly not a bunch of "assumptions and his opinions." You may not agree with his theology and exegesis"
That´s the problem, he didn´t do any Exegesis at all!
Here´s a piece of it, see if there´s any exegesis:
"Third, by resting on the seventh day, God pictured the rest that he would provide for his people. He offered Adam and his descendants life (eternal rest), so if Adam had not fallen into sin, he would have entered into that rest without passing through death. God, by resting on the seventh day, pictured the promised rest, our eternal rest. The Creator's example of rest explains why the end of the seventh day is not recorded. The first six days were concluded by the cycle of evening and morning, but the ending of the seventh day is not recorded. For Adam and Eve, the seventh day ended as had the previous six days; the cessation of the day, however, is left unspecified to picture the eternal rest that God would provide for his people. God graciously did not cancel the offer of rest after the Fall. Rather, he renewed the promise of life, not through Adam's obedience, but through a Redeemer. According to God's eternal purpose, the day of rest became a weekly promise and reminder to sinners that he would provide redemption and rest."
That´s not Exegesis, that´s Eisegesis! He is inserting his ideas and opinions, and then he throws some scriptures around to make it look like they support his point of view. Very disappointing.
There was no Exegesis in that article, most of it was pure Eisegesis.
The keeping of the Sabbath is not a Presbyterian thing, here are some Reformed Baptist resources.
Clyde, does God make exceptions in his commandment of the keeping of the Sabbath day? I don´t remember reading any.
I´ve heard many faith-promoting stories about people who refused to work on Sundays and found a much better job later.
I don´t want you to lose your job, i´m just pointing out how baseless is your Sabbath-day "keeping", and how quick mormons are to find excuses for not keeping supposed commandments given by God.
so what?
That´s part of the Law of Moses, which was perfectly kept and fulfilled by Jesus. Your point is, again?
Honestly when are you going to address my argument from the book of Acts? And the other one from Galatians?
Also, are you circumsized? You know, the ordinance of Circumcision is part of the Abrahamic Covenant of which Jesus is part, and all Christians, according to Paul, are children of Abraham through Faith. Are you keeping the Circumcision ordinance?
"I'm ignoring everything else my friend. I can not answer every single question thrown at me"
Every single question? Let me break it down for you then: 1) What about that passage i quoted twice in the Book of Acts, when the Apostle command that the Gentiles should not be put under the Law of Moses but should just observe three things, the Sabbath not being one of them?
2)Have you been circumsized.
3)If you observe the Sabbath day the way it´s supposed to, are you also subject to the death penalty for not keeping it?
Easy to answer. You don´t have time to address those, but you have time to post about 20 comments about Sabbath day observance. Btw, i´m sure everyone here is just as busy as you are if not more.
"Luke means here regarding the Law of Moses. As you may know, "Law" can mean various things (i.e. 10 commandments, first five books, of Moses, etc.)."
It doesn´t matter – read the passage. They don´t specify it, if the Gentiles were to keep any aspect of the Law of Moses they would have told them so(and the 10 Commandments are part of the five books of Moses). Now you´re starting to show you own abilities in Eisegesis! Great… it´s just like talking to a Mormon.
Also, Rick already pointed out that Jesus explained that the Entire law and the prophets were summarized in two commandments. Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So, there´s no distinction in the Law the way you to put it, to your own convenience. Jesus doesn´t make that distinction. And He kept all of it, not just portions of the ceremonial Law, dietary law, whatever category you want to classify it under, etc.
"I've never said one has to keep the sabbath for salvation."
Oh, really… so is that a fruit of the Spirit then?
You seem to be one of those guys who just follow whatever your Pastors say without studying for yourself. That´s not good though… like Rick said you could be binding people with a heavy burden for no reason whatsoever.
Jesus died for us because no one can keep the law. I am confident there is a difference between Law and Gospel. If you think one bad thought about your brother, then you have murdered him. No one can and has ever kept the law. It was set for moral boundaries to keep a civil society. Pretty sure Jesus said something about even picking up wheat for hungry was breaking the sabbath. We rest in Jesus every day of the week. Not just on Sundays. You got a lot of 'whacked out' people running around like chickens with their heads cut off to get everything done through the six days, so on the seventh they can rest and look down upon those who are 'working.'
Thanks for you time, I'm done.
I am learning so much from this conversation! I'm a new ex-mormon and I was having this exact argument with my mormon mother. She is so stuck on the 10 commandments. As a new Christian I'm still having a hard time witnessing to her. I have tried telling her that Jesus fulfilled the law and we are not bound by the 10 commandments, but instead we are to follow the commandments of Christ which are to love God and to love our neighbor. She thinks I'm insane. I would love to witness to her more but she gets so defensive that I don't want to hurt our relationship. Any advice?
How convenient… i thought you wouldn´t be able to answer my questions. Better luck next time.
"It is interesting to note that we as people can observe people trying to keep the sabbath and still criticize them when we see one little thing that may violate the sabbath law that they are not doing."
That´s the thing, Clyde. You think that´s keeping the Sabbath, but it isn´t. Your Church has a Joseph Smith made up Sabbath that has nothing to do with the Biblical Sabbath, yet you claim it has. Well, if it has, and you claim it to be based on the 10 Commandments, you had better be obeying it as it is determined by God Himself in the Old Testament, because that´s how Jesus observed it – and you don´t.
Our friend Jeff has the same problem, he doesn´t keep the Sabbath – he doesn´t even follow Jesus´ example at all. Yet he comes here exhorting people to "keep" it, twisting and ignoring scriptures to support his position even in the face of crystal clear passages of the Bible that downright contradict him!(that´s why i also had annoy him to try to get him to answer if he is circumsized or not :P)
The criticism is not about the small little things. It´s about your legalistic system where you not only have a futile pseudo Sabbath but also the fact that you have people monitoring each other to pressure each other into compliance. And also to expose how illogical those church-made rules are.
We cannot keep the law. If we break any part of the law, we have broken all of it. That is why we need God. The ten commandments points us to Jesus. Its our guidebook to show how much we need Him. We cannot do it ourselves. If you go before God and say, 'See how much I love you and how much good work I have done, He will say I never knew you.' If you come before Him, and say, I Believe. I Loved. Then you are His.
If you work for a paycheck, the check is not a gift. It is owed to you. If you work, and say God, see? It is due you. Not a gift. Your works are but filthy rags.
See Shawn McCraney at hotm.tv. He says not to preach and preach to your mormon loved ones. Shawn says just to love them. He also says that your loved ones will see a change in you, and that this change is permanent. That is the best you can do. His family is mormon and he was mormon for 40 years so I think he knows what he is talking about. He says even when a mormon is married to a Christian, to love. We are to love. (Not divorce which he says is unconsionable (sp?).
The Jews loved the law. If you keep the law, you will be blessed. If I give you a million dollars, you will be happy. If I take it away, you will be sad. It is very conditional. That is why Jesus was mad at the pharisees. Didn't He call them vipers?
I saw Jeff Leaving after I asked Him to show me from Scripture where I was wrong, Then all I get is, Do you believe the Bible and read this book or check out this link. If you cannot support your view from scripture then why are you here?
Jeff, Your Hypocrisy is this, You coming here and telling us we must live the law of the Sabbath, yet you never answer our questions we ask and you reply with, I'm to busy. Then you never tells us, our you living the law exactly every law, not just some. If your not following everyone then your a hypocrite.
Then you say to F_melo, are you living like Christ? When he sarcastically replies with, I tried raising people from the dead and turning water to wine, you took offense and said he misunderstood you. I hate to break the news to you, but I also understood you the way he did, so it seems you did a lousy job explaining what you meant.
Then I explained that I live as Christ, but when I do as Christ did, I say stuff to people like, You a hypocrite, or a brood of vipers, or maybe I should clean house with a whip of cords, then so called Christians tell me I cannot say or do that stuff. But when I point out Jesus did it the reply I get is, well Jesus was God and He can do it but you (Rick) are not Jesus so you cannot do it. Please be honest Jeff, If I said or did those things like Jesus or said those things to some one here on this blog would you rebuke me for it? If so then why, and that would be another reason I would call you a hypocrite. Unlike you Jeff, I can defend my position and support what I believe, you might not agree with my answers, but I can still defend what I believe.
Hi Kate,
You might refer your mother to the Bible Dictionary in the LDS Bible under 'Law of Moses'. It states –
Even the missionaries teach that the commandments we need to live by are the ones Jesus re-iterated in the NT but are also found in the OT and they are –
"Love God with all thy heart, might, mind, and strength, and Love thy neighbour as thyself."
The 10 commandments do form a part of these 2, but these are much more than the 10 commandments. So basically we as LDS do not need to live by the 10 commandments as they are a lesser law. We now need to live by the higher law being love one another. I hope that helps you with your mother.
You have some very good points. However you must remember the armed forces and how they have to be on duty 24/7. The jews in israel have a problem with one of there sects who are very strict in there interpretation of what can be done on the sabbath. I believe rick or Mr. hammer to some people, pointed out how elevators work on the sabbath. Their seems to be a problem when people define what is work. I like my work and at times wish I had done things differently. I am amazed that I am paid for what I do.
Kate, it´s grate to know that this what would seem otherwise pointless conversation has actually helped you! That´s why i insist on those discussions. I´m just like you, recently abandoned mormonism and as a new Christian it´s been wonderful to enjoy the freedom we have in Jesus. Also the Bible gained a whole new dimension, i´ve never loved studying it so much as i do now!
Mormonism is stuck in the Old Testament. They consider themselves a new Israel with a new covenant and they think that things should work for them now the way they did to Israel in antiquity. What they don´t understand is that they can´t apply the Old Testament in their lives as to validate that covenant, because Christ did no such thing, He fulfilled the old Law for us, so that through His righteousness we would be saved.
So, maybe what could help your mother would be for you two to sit down together, open the Bible and study exactly how was the Sabbath day instituted in the Old Testament, and how it was kept – that will help her see that the Biblical Sabbath and the Mormon Sabbath have no relation to each other. Then you could go to the case where Peter was rebuked by Paul because he was living like a Gentile while he wanted Gentiles to live like Jews, the council in Jerusalem as i mentioned before, etc. Those are all cases that are very clear.
May i ask you, how has your experience been with your family since leaving? Do they show any interest in your new beliefs?
As a new Christian, this blog helped me a lot, stick around to share your experiences with us! Shawn McCraney´s show, heart of the matter is a must watch as well. There´s a third source that i also strongly recommend, it´s a podcast on <a href="http://www.fightingforthefaith.com” target=”_blank”>www.fightingforthefaith.com with Chris Rosebrough – i don´t agree with everything he says, but he does an excelent job in discernment, exposing some Bible twisters such as Rick Warren, Rob Bell, etc. At times he mentions mormonism, and he answered one of my questions during the show once, very nice guy!
"It included a law of carnal commandments and performances, added to the basic laws of the gospel."
Ralph, Ralph, that´s mormon myth. The "laws"(!) of the Gospel? The LAWS of the Gospel? Sure….
See, Kate, this is what i just told you… Mormons think that Christ gave a new law, and they are modern-day Israel stuck in the Old Testament times.
"Faith, repentance, baptism in water, and remission of sins were part of the law"
In what universe were Faith, Repentance and Baptism part of the Old Testament law? Do you watch that tv show Fringe? I love that show, and it has parallel universes – maybe that´s where that took place.
"The law of carnal commandments and much of the ceremonial law were fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Oh, so, Jesus didn´t keep the whole law, huh… didn´t know that…
"Even the missionaries teach that the commandments we need to live by are the ones Jesus re-iterated in the NT but are also found in the OT and they are – "
What missionaries don´t tell you though is that Jesus lived those commandments to fulfill them so that we would be save by His righteousness. They don´t tell you that because they don´t believe it. For them Jesus is their older brother who served as a bridge to remove those annoying obstacles out of their way towards godhood.
"The 10 commandments do form a part of these 2, but these are much more than the 10 commandments"
I´m smelling deception here. Here´s what Jesus says about it. Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Those are much more than the 10 commandments? Do you know something that Jesus doesn´t?
fmelo,
The Mosaic Law, including the 10 commandments were a carnal law, in other words a temporal law, given to Israel (not just the Jews but the whole 12 tribes of Israel) to bring them to Christ (Galatians 3:24). This involved their faith in Him as well as keeping the physical requirements of the law (eg ceremonies, washes, sacrifices, etc).
The 10 commandments fell into 2 parts – how one interacted with God (#1 – 5) and how one interacted with others (# 5 – 10). However, to be able to keep the last group of commandments one did not have to love their neighbour, they could hate their neighbour or could be indifferent to them and still keep the 10 commandments. But it would be difficult to keep them none-the-less if you did not love your neighbour.
The commandments you cited are a ‘step up’ in which one has to have love for God and their neighbour. And you will find that if you do sincerely love your neighbour you would be keeping the commandments #5- 10 very easily. Also if you truly loved God with “all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind” it would make keeping the first 5 commandments very easy. So the 10 commandments are encapsulated within these 2 great commandments, just these 2 are a higher law, or a step up from the 10 basic commandments.
But these 2 great commandments were not from Jesus at that point in time, but He quoted from the OT – Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Jesus gave one other commandment before He left – John 13:34 “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” If you look at that commandment you will find that it encapsulates the 2 great commandments that Jesus spoke of earlier in His ministry. All that Jesus did because of His love pointed everyone to love and worship God. And if we love everyone as Jesus loved us we are definitely doing more than just loving our neighbour as we love our self – human love is fickle and conditional; Jesus’s love was unconditional. So again, a higher commandment was given to His people to follow.
And why should we follow His commandments? John 14:15 ” If ye love me, keep my commandments.” I can’t think of a simpler reason to strive to keep His commandments than to show Him I love Him. Because if I don’t love Him, I cannot be saved.
f_melo,
I have actually watched Shawn McCraney a lot! I love his show because I have been a mormon for 40 years myself and as you may know, it is so woven into us from birth that when you start to question some things, you aren't sure what is mormonism and what is Biblical. Shawn has helped me so much with this. I'm going to check out the podcast, I've not heard of it. I have been reading this blog off and on for about a month or so. Great discussions on here! It's also nice to read what other ex-mormons are saying. Has your family accepted that you have left?
My immediate family aren't really active except for my mom. She comes from a family of temple mormons. My dad has always had a problem with the LDS church even though technically he is mormon. He's the reason nothing was forced on us. My in-laws are temple mormons. I really don't care what they think of me for leaving. I'm a pretty strong personality. I have to say that I really don't want to hurt my mom though. I try to be considerate of her feelings. I'm not sure what she thinks about me leaving. I just told her a few weeks ago. She was here one day when the sister missionaries stopped by. How long did it take before they stopped sending the missionaries to your home??? I was polite because I hadn't told her that I have had my name and records removed. I told her after they left. She didn't say anything and it's not weird or anything. My husband and kids show an interest in my new beliefs, but I really haven't discussed it too much with anyone else.
Ralph,
Thanks, but no thanks. I would never send my mother to anything that is printed by the LDS church. Everything is so twisted. I will keep working on her though, with the truth that is in Christ.
Violet,
I have heard Shawn say this too. I think it is a good idea for family members who get so angry and judgmental. Hopefully I can get to a place with my mom where we can talk "nicely" about it. I remember as a mormon getting so upset with the Jehovah's Witnesses that came to my home and told me I wasn't a Christian. LOL! I could get just as irate as the next mormon. Funny how things have changed for me. I love the freedom I have found in Christ. It makes me want to shout it out at the next family reunion! Ha ha ha!
fmelo,
You said ”In what universe were Faith, Repentance and Baptism part of the Old Testament law”
In what universe is faith in Jesus not part of the law to enter heaven?
Repentance was part of the sacrificial system as there were sacrifices for sin and trespassing (found scattered through Leviticus 4, 5 & 6). The sacrifice here also pointed to faith in Jesus and His coming and ultimate sacrifice for our sins and trespasses. Interestingly, sins committed with a high hand, and for which the punishment was death, did not admit of expiation under the Mosaic law (Num. 15:30–31). So these sacrifices were not enough to repent of certain sins.
Why was Jesus baptised? Matthew 3:15 ”And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.” People went to John the Baptist to be baptised before Jesus came along. Then Jesus was baptised to fulfil all righteousness. All this points to baptism being part of the OT way of life even though it may not be written in there, else why would these people and Jesus flock to be baptised?
But if my comments do not sway you how about a website from the Church of Christ, which I believe is a Traditional Christian church – http://www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com/articl…
Or how about – http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sacraments/baptism…
So faith, repentance and baptism were all a part of the OT law and way of life for the Israelites.
Hi Kate!
I'm a Bible-believing Christian. Have never been a Mormon. Very glad to have you here and welcome. I pray that you continue your wonderful new walk with Jesus!
As for the 10 commandments — I do believe that they exist for a reason and that we're meant to follow them. What Jesus said in his "greatest commandment" moment (to love God and to love your neighbor) pretty much sums up the 10 commandments.
Think of it this way: If you love your neighbor, you will not steal from them. If you love your neighbor, you will not kill them. If you love your husband/wife, you will not commit adultery. If you love God, you will keep the Sabbath and make it holy. If you love God, you will have no other gods before Him.
Do you see what I'm saying? It's not that the 10 commandments are discarded, but it's that Jesus Christ made following them so much simpler!
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
If you do this, you will keep the 10 commandments.
Galatians 5:14 says: For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Jeff, you say your busy with school, Please dont make excuses, If you cannot speak for yourself and quote scripture and back up what you think, then dont speak. I have a wife and 3 kids, I'm full time in college and working 2 part time jobs and my 3 kids are all home schooled, So I understand being busy. with all that said I have time to study the scriptures and speak for my self. Remember Acts 17:11, search the scriptures to know if these things are true. It does not say, Have someone search the scriptures for you and tell you if these things are true.
Jeff, You keep asking questions but ignore mine, I refuse to answer you until you answer me. You said
I and F_melo already asked you about this, we asked you to show us chapter and verse where God told Adam and Eve or anyone else they must obey and rest on Sunday. You never did. Then I pointed out how Jesus said ALL THE LAWS are fulfilled in these two, Love God and Love thy neighbor. If that is correct then how come I must keep the sabbath. Then I asked you, if you insist we must keep the sabbath, do you keep all the laws, if not why. You never answered that. Do expect me to answer you when your dodging me, we both know you are a Genesis 1-1 kind of guy, with out form or substance.
"The Mosaic Law, including the 10 commandments were a carnal law, in other words a temporal law"
That´s Mormon lingo, i know it very well. You take that from Paul, yet you ignore his message clinging on the carnal commandments and not the Salvation through faith in Jesus.
"hey could hate their neighbour or could be indifferent to them and still keep the 10 commandments. But it would be difficult to keep them none-the-less if you did not love your neighbour. "
You simply don´t understand the words of Jesus, do you? You couldn´t keep the law and hate your neighbor.
"The commandments you cited are a ‘step up’ in which one has to have love for God and their neighbour."
No, according to Jesus those 2 commandments summarize the Law, they are not a step up – sheesh, will i have to quote what Jesus said again, for crying out loud! Oh, i forgot, you don´t care about what Jesus says – right, Joseph not Jesus.
"But these 2 great commandments were not from Jesus at that point in time, but He quoted from the OT "
Again, this point seems extremely incredibly hard for you to get it – those two commandments were the summary of the Law! Read that passage again!
"If you look at that commandment you will find that it encapsulates the 2 great commandments that Jesus spoke of earlier in His ministry."
No, it doesn´t. Unless you´re willing to say that God is redundant, because the first commandment is to love your God. The second is to love your neighbor. If to love your neighbor is the same as to love God, then why did Jesus mention both? You´re just piecing those disconnected verses together out of context and classifying them as higher laws – you have no clue what you´re talking about.
And by your logic then i can only love God if i keep all of His commandments – otherwise i don´t love Him. Ralph, do you love God, i mean, do you keep all of His commandments? Because if you don´t then you´re not loving God.
"I can’t think of a simpler reason to strive to keep His commandments than to show Him I love Him. "
So why don´t you do it? Why don´t you love God?
John 6:28-29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Rick,
How about personal revelation? Will that work? I think you're too demanding with everything needing a Scripture reference. There's a lot of smart people out there who think big thoughts. When we get too literal with the Bible we close off all possibilities of new revelation. How about automatic writing for example. Just let your mind go blank and write what ever emerges.
Now another good tool is to take a smooth rock about the size of an egg. Put it in a fedora and than put your face in the hat. When you close out all light, words will appear to you………..Now you could also get a pendulum….the entrails of animals also can be an effective tool………………….
Mr. Falcon
"You said ”In what universe were Faith, Repentance and Baptism part of the Old Testament law”
In what universe is faith in Jesus not part of the law to enter heaven? "
I was referring to the Gospel as found in the New Testament as Mormons present it. I know you´re mormon so you don´t get it – there´s no law to enter heaven! You enter Heaven by having faith in Christ having His righteousness imputed to you. You don´t enter in because of you righteousness which is filthiness before God. Even in the BoM Mosiah says that even if you did all that God commanded you´d still be an unprofitable servant. Go ahead Ralph, earn your exaltation – but at least keep the whole law, will you, instead of cherry picking what commandments you want or not to follow and making excuses.
"Interestingly, sins committed with a high hand, and for which the punishment was death, did not admit of expiation under the Mosaic law (Num. 15:30–31). So these sacrifices were not enough to repent of certain sins. "
Interesting why, because that somehow justifies the blasphemous mormon doctrine of blood atonement that denigrates the blood of Jesus and says it´s insufficient? Are you comparing the blood of Jesus with the blood of animals? I don´t doubt you´d go that far.
"All this points to baptism being part of the OT way of life even though it may not be written in there, else why would these people and Jesus flock to be baptised? "
You assume a lot, don´t you. Show me one passage of the Old Testament that says that. You can´t because there isn´t any. Baptism was never a part of the Law of Moses and you claimed it was. Also baptism as it was taught by Christ and John as a confession of faith(some hold it as that, and some say that it is a sacrament by which forgiveness of sins is received) didn´t exist in the Law either, there were many washings as demonstrated by the Essenes, but to say that that´s the same it´s pure imagination. So why was John baptizing? I honestly have no idea where the practice came from, because that wasn´t a requirement of the law – i´ll have to do some research on that.
But if it is in the the Law it is just in a symbolical way(the last link allegorized the beginning of the creation and said that that was a pattern of baptism – it didn´t make any sense) not in the mythical mormon presentation that says that Adam was baptized and then received the Gift of the Holy Ghost(btw, where is that ordinance in the OT?). Nor in the mythical BoM that says that the Church was established even before Jesus was born!!!!!
Falcon, All these people who cannot handle the word of God Like Jeff, the Mormons and atheists have inspired me to create a new Bible. It will be a dry erase Bible. In short it will be the full king James version, but will come with a dry erase marker so you can remove at will anything that offends or you simply dont like, Like maybe the Book of Job, since to some it is merely a myth anyway, or the Book of revelation since it is all allegory according to some, or maybe you can simply erase some of the laws you dont like, then it will have a dry erase marker so you can add to it at will, like many people have. It will be hitting the Christians book stores soon.