by grindael
Another self-proclaimed Mormon prophet has delivered a message to the world. As is usually the case with these prophets, the words are purported to come from God Himself. What follows are excerpts from four different revelations, delivered by four different prophets of Mormonism. Just for fun, I’ve delayed the identification of each prophet until the end of the post. It seems a little more interesting to compare the text and style of one revelation to another without any preconceived ideas based on their sources.
Mormon friends, do you accept any of these as true revelations given by God? Do you accept any of these prophets as true servants of God? Do you reject any of these revelations and prophets as false? Upon what do you base your conclusions?
“Hearken! Oh ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen together and open your ears, for it is I, the Lord God of all the earth, the creator of all things that speaketh unto you. Yea, even Jesus Christ speaking by the voice of my servant whom I have called and chosen to be a light and a covenant to the world in these last days…ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.” (1)
“Thus saith the Lord unto the nation…I, the Lord, am soon sending the shaking of the earth in a place in thy land not known as a usual place of violent shaking, unto the loss of many lives. Let it be known, I, the Lord, have sent my message to government officials to free my servant…to cause my people to receive back their lands and houses, and you heed me not. Thus shall I cause a great destruction in the land…to the loss of life and to your awakening, that when I, the Lord, speak, let my word be fulfilled, lest you become as a people only worthy to be swept off my land of Zion; For verily I say unto you, this earth is mine, and I have caused my people to receive a preparation work for my glorious coming on earth to establish my Zion, and they are my people…Though you deny me, know that I, the Lord, have spoken, and I send to you my word at this time, to receive my word that I shall cause my servant on earth to deliver thee a message of warning, that I, the Lord, will no longer uphold thee as a nation…” (2)
“This proclamation shall be made to all the kings of the world, to the four corners thereof, to the honorable president-elect, and the high-minded governors of the nation in which you live, and to all the nations of the earth scattered abroad…For it shall be given you by the Holy Ghost to know my will concerning those kings and authorities, even what shall befall them in a time to come. For, behold, I am about to call upon them to give heed to the light and glory of Zion, for the set time has come to favor her. Call ye, therefore, upon them with loud proclamation, and with your testimony, fearing them not, for they are as grass, and all their glory as the flower thereof which soon falleth, that they may be left also without excuse. And that I may visit them in the day of visitation, when I shall unveil the face of my covering, to appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth, if they reject my servants and my testimony which I have revealed unto them.” (3)
“And this voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days…Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of mine servants, that I have given them to preach unto you, Oh, inhabitants of the earth; therefore, fear and tremble, Oh, ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed, in them, shall be fulfilled…And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed unto the ends of the earth. And the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people. For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant. They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, after the image of his own god,…Therefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, have called upon my servants and spake unto them from heaven, and gave unto them commandments that they should proclaim these things unto the world…” (4)
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Sources:
(1) The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, 1 (9 February 2002) and 12 (27 February 2002)
(2) Revelation given through Warren Jeffs, 2/5/2011, vv. 1-5
(3) Revelation given through Joseph Smith, 10/27/1838, Doctrine & Covenants 124:3, 5-8
(4) The Sealed Portion [Christopher Marc Nemelka, translator] 32:3-4, 6-9 (For more information on Christopher Nemelka see “Christopher Nemelka – The Reincarnated Hyrum Smith?” on mrm.org)
falcon, I tend to think that there are a significant number of Mormons who indeed say
to themselves "WHOA", when they find out about Smith and his rock. Many Mormons
do rationalize this away, but there are those who it deeply troubles. It's our job to bring
these historical events to their attention, God the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
ww
Enki, one of the weak points in your case here is that – at least so far as you've provided – none of the accounts mention Old Testament prophets receiving visions *in* bodies of water.
And yes, it is true that there were urim and thummim in the Old Testament and casting of lots in the New Testament, but what needs to be established here is that they functioned in a way at all comparable to seer stones, or to the Urim and Thummim as understood by Joseph Smith.
If I were an LDS apologist, I think I'd take a different approach to defending Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone. I'd probably say something like, "Look, when God wanted to proclaim the good news of his Son's birth to pagan astrologers, he used astrology-friendly means: namely, a sign in the sky. The God we see in the Bible is a God who conveys his message to us through means suitable for his audience. And so on this principle, who can be surprised that God would choose to use a seer stone to give his message to a young man accustomed to using seer stones?"
With all due respect, I have been a member of the church for five years (I served as a missionary as well) and I had little problem telling Joseph Smith apart from the others here by relying on my testimony and the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
That was kind of distasteful.. You probably should have said God will take me home if everybody doesnot send me money for a new computer.
Kristyn,
I'm curious, who is the Holy Ghost that is guiding you in your Mormonism and providing you with promptings?
falcon
Kristyn, welcome, and thanks for visiting MRM. I would like to ask a question of you. Since Jesus
warned of future false prophets appearing on the scene, and since the N.T. epistles add to that
warning, how do we know that Mormon prophets and apostles are not those who people need to
be leery of ? Why should we believe they are true spiritual guides ? Thanks.
ww
JB,
Ezekiel 1:1 "On July 31 of my thirtieth year, while I was with the Judean exiles beside the Kebar River in Babylon, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God."
But its true, he doesn't specifically say that he saw the image of the visions on the surface of the water. Its curious why he mentioned the exact circumstances of being near the river. He could simply be saying thats where he was.
No, the U&T description didn't exactly match the O.T. description of its use. It was a method of 'divination', so I am sometimes a bit confused as to why its condemned elsewhere.
Use of a physical medium for scrying is just an assist. Its really a mental procress, a surface as small as ones nail can be used, or NO physical medium at all. Its entirely possible for someone to have visions induced without specifically meaning to induce it.
Kate,
The question to address then might be what is wrong, if anything with the Ideal image of J.S. doing the translation? Of course the content of the translation might be examined, as is often does at MC and elsewhere.
JB, welcome.
ww
Kristyn
I am a little skeptical of that statement, however, do you have anything more objective by which to test and prove the difference between the authors? If the holy ghost you are talking about is real, it must be pointing out to you by supernatural means something false about the statement. With very close examination I am sure you could make conscious and objective what it is you picked up on. Couldn't it then be presented to everyone in an objective manner for all of us to review?
Falcon,
I guess that sort of makes sense, there is the LDS belief that the constitution is divinely inspired. Almost scripture in a sense. Years ago I was encouraged to keep a copy of the constitution with my copy of the lds triple combination. I actually hand typed it all out. But as I did so, I didn't particularly think it was scripture or anything close to it, but that disbelief was suspended because someone said it was inspired.
Kristyn,
Not to overwhelm you with questions, but how is the prompting you are receiving from the Holy Ghost the same or different from that received by the Jehovah Witnesses who come to visit me?
Also, what is the difference in Mormonism between the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit?
Thank you in advance for answering my questions. I appreciate the interaction.
falcon
I just read a lot falcon. It is obvious that Smith believed in a different god prior to 1835, when he first started reading hebrew and hooked up with a guy named Alexander Neibaur, a german convert (and distant forefather of Hugh Nibley). Take this 'inspired' retranslation of Luke 10:22 by Smith, which reads:
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son IS the Father, and the Father IS the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. _Joseph Smith Translation, Luke 10:22
Couple that with the Lectures on Faith and the plethora of verses in the Book of Mormon that show a modalistc interpretation of God, and there you have it . For Smith's later views on God and the Alexander Neibaur connection to them and the Kabbalah, please go here, it's fascinating. http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm
Funny you said that, Clyde – why does Joseph gets a free pass? He said and did much, much worse.
"All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son IS the Father, and the Father IS the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. _Joseph Smith Translation, Luke 10:22"
Great info! That makes much more sense when put together like that. Grindael, why do you think Joseph went so radical with the men becoming gods thing?
Enki, it´s a great thing that you´re reviewing the merits of atheism. Have you checked out that website that, i think was setfree who referenced us to a while back, darwinpredictions.com? It´s a great read!
Also, may i ask you a question? what is it that you expect of life, or, what is driving you to go through all those different philosophies/religions? You don´t have to answer if you don´t feel like sharing that…
Mormons have excuses for everything. If something bad happens, the church is true. If something good happens, its because the church is true. Fly me to a city in the book of mormon, excuses. Golden plates, excuses. Need five books to trump one bible (wow, d&C, p.o. great price, etc.) Bible not true. Book of mormon most correct book on earth but filled with archeological, linguistical, absolutely no evidence, excuses. Where are the manuscripts to back up the bom? Excuses. Polygamy. We distance ourselves from that. Blacks can't hold the priesthood. Distance themselves from that. Even the prophet said on 60 minutes, 'I don't know that we believe that.' If you tell your members, you don't get to see what we did with your lifetime tithing. Trust us. Excuses. Please do not look at any other website that speaks about religion other than lds.org. Trust us. Excuses. No matter what happens, they were right, are right and are the most right religion on earth. I can pull the quote where Brigham Young said no one can get into heaven without Joseph Smith. What? Is he a prophet or a God? Do I need a prophet of the old testament to get into heaven? No. Any question has an immediate, permanent (yet wrong) answer. Happens with people who lie. I have met liars. They have an immediate, quick, prompt response, and will not discuss, argue, or debate. Because the truth always breaks down a lie.
Thank you, WW, i didn´t think i was stupid… hahahaha, just joking!!!
I do feel a lot of times that i was pretty stupid to blindly believe all the church taught, not researching it further, etc., but you know, one of the things i strongly think that kept me from the truth was the fact that i didn´t take the Word of God seriously enough to actually learn it the way i should have. I was way too distracted by the things of the world, and that includes the Church and its systems. If my heart was ever truly on Christ instead of myself, maybe things would have been different…
What i know for sure though, is this:
"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]" (Luke 10:22)
The Urim and Thummin are a big mystery. If i remember right, i read a while ago Josephus saying that the Urim and Thummin would shine when God was with Israel in battle… so, i don´t think anybody really knows how they worked, but there are some interesting explanations out there – none of which resembles what Joseph described.
I think one of the major differences is that God appointed that, not as a way to bypass Him, as pagans try so desperately to do. The Old Testament compares the sin of witchcraft with rebellion, showing that those who practice witchcraft want to bypass God´s power and in a way become god themselves shaping their reality the way they want instead of submitting to God´s will and trusting in Him alone.
"Use of a physical medium for scrying is just an assist. Its really a mental procress, a surface as small as ones nail can be used, or NO physical medium at all. Its entirely possible for someone to have visions induced without specifically meaning to induce it."
How do you know it´s just a mental process? You´re just assuming stuff here… Anybody can use a number of methods to get into a state of trance and have all sorts of crazy experiences. That´s why God was clear about the criterias of how the people should discern prophets who didn´t speak in His name.
" One has to question the "rock in the hat" thing! "
It was pretty shocking for me to find out that was true, and worse yet, South Park was actually telling me the truth!! That was one of the lowest points in my life…
" they don't question anything and they believe whatever is put in front of them by mormon leaders"
You´re absolutely correct. That´s a lot of power in the hands of few men…
Kristyn,
I know exactly how you feel, and it must have taken a lot of courage and strength to read through all the posts where we don´t treat the Church with the same holiness you do. I hope you stick around to go through the comments, to think about them carefully and to have a discussion about it.
I know you have a lot of questions to answer, but i´d like to add another one – how did you become aware of Joseph Smith using the seer stones, and how do you feel about it?
Hi Falcon! Thanks for the great questions. To answer your first one. The Holy Ghost that guides and prompts me is the same Holy Ghost that is taught of in all Christian faiths. He is part of the trinity with God the Father and Jesus Christ. He is there to testify of the other two and to keep us on the path to heaven. He is also known as the Holy Spirit. There are no differences there.
In the Book of Mormon in the Moroni it says: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:4-5) That is a promise I have seen fulfilled. I am not too familiar with the Jehovah Witnesses so I cannot honestly comment on them. However, I have come to rely on the Holy Ghost and it has always served me well.
Joseph Smith misunderstood how elohim was used in relation to the 1st verse in the Bible. He probably learned that it could be translated as 'gods' when he took Hebrew lessons from Josiah Sexias in 1833-34. With the arrival of the Michael Chandler mummies in 1834, the stage was set for Smith's reconstruction of Mormon doctrine. In 1839 Smith had a 'revelation' which stated:
“God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory; A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.” (D&C 121:26-28)
Here we see a conundrum. What things have NOT been revealed? According to Mormons today, (and I’ve spoken to many) the Church is a restoration of ALL things past. Doctrines LOST and then restored. The Book of Abraham is purported to be a document written by Abraham himself, more than 3500 years ago. How is the knowledge given in it something that ‘has not been revealed since the world was until now’? In fact, many Mormons will argue that the Bible itself teaches polytheism, and will cite verses about the ‘divine council’ to support this view. Some Christians even teach this now, based on the Ugaritic texts, which they use to try and explain these verses. There are massive problems with this though, which have been addressed here in this forum by Staci Lee & others. Where are ANY doctrines from the Mormon Church that are considered to be totally new? In fact, Mormon Authorities specifically state:
“The Church teaches that every gospel truth and blessing, and all priesthood authority, keys, ordinances, and covenants necessary for mankind's eternal salvation have been, or will be, restored in this dispensation. In this manner, the blessings of dispensations past will "flow into the most glorious and greatest of dispensations, like clear streams flowing into a mighty river" (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, page 1218. Doctrines of Salvation 1:168)
Those that try to justify Smith’s doctrines always try to link them to some past teaching. Mormons have rejected some of the new revelations, in particular, Adam-god, revealed by Brigham Young.
One thing to remember about Smith was that he was the master of change. For example this verse changed in the Book of Mormon:
Original 1830 Text (Alma 15, p. 303):
“yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills”
Later, Altered Text (Alma 29:4):
“yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, according to their wills”
There is the out for Smith to change anything he wanted to, and the Mormon Church with him. Definition of decree:
1. a formal and authoritative order, especially one having the force of law: a presidential decree.
2.Law . a judicial decision or order.
3.Theology . one of the eternal purposes of god, by which events are foreordained.
Here, we see one of the fundamental thoughts of early Mormonism changed. Unalterable decrees of God into things allotted by God to men 'according to their wills.' In dialoging with many Mormons over the last few years, I have learned that they place a LOT of emphasis on men's weakness, and how the 'decrees' of God are given to men. In one very long and interesting exchange on Mormonism's racist issues of the past, one Mormon Apologist who has written for FAIR said to me that God worked through prophets, but that events of the world, and how prophets perceived the world influenced how they revealed doctrine. This plays into what McConkie stated about the 1978 revelation:
“There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.” (McConkie, All are alike unto God, 18 August 1978)
(Part II) McConkie makes these points:
Early statements in regard to this doctrine are ‘interpreted’, but they were obviously wrong. To rectify this he says: repent and get in line behind a ‘living, modern prophet’. To do so, one must ‘forget everything’ anyone previous had taught about that doctrine. Why? Because (and here is the kicker) they “spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.”
Ouch. That last line I quoted really bothers me. First of all, they spoke with a ‘limited understanding AND WITHOUT THE LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE THAT HAS NOW COME INTO THE WORLD? And where did this ‘knowledge’ come from, the WORLD? This was the reply that the same Mormon Apologist gave me when I brought up this point:
“this is the kind of society in which the LDS leaders prior to the Civil Rights Era were born and raised. It takes a LOT to unlearn the foibles of society, even when inspired by God.”
He then added:
“Every white person in America, not just Mormons, had to learn the true worth of the minority who had been brought to these shores as chattel. They had to learn they were and are equal in every way to any other race on this planet. It was only as God taught this lesson, line upon line, precept upon precept, that He was finally able to relieve the oppression against the Negro race and get the oppressors to realize the wrongs they had committed and to make amends.
And you know, in the process both sides of the issue gained strengths they never knew they had. People of the race who had long oppressed the others became their champions. Civil rights leaders learned not only that slavery was bad, but that the racism that continued even among the abolitionists for many years was no longer acceptable.
It never had anything to do with a direct line to God, save that God only taught what He knew his children could learn, including His Prophets. Probably the hardest lesson for some to learn was forgiveness for the evil that had gone on before, even among the best-intended. Tolerance also was a hard lesson for some, yet many did in fact learn tolerance and forgiveness.” (From an internet discussion)
I found this line of thought hard to swallow. I explained to this Mormon that many who were not ‘inspired’ by God, led the way in civil rights, even from before the time of the civil war. I documented that God had laid out his doctrine in the Bible, that all were equal. He claimed that the racist teachings of Mormonsim had nothing to do with a ‘direct line to God’, but that God taught his prophets lessons, and that they had to ‘grasp’ his concepts only as they were enlightened by the world around them. He speaks of the impossibility of any revelation on equality in the Church being unsuccessful because of the Mormon leaders world views.
My comments that well, if God had just TOLD them to give the Priesthood to the Blacks in 1848 instead of 1978 – they would have just rejected it, and NOT tried to fulfill God’s command to them? Fell on deaf ears. He concluded with:
“You can scream and holler all you want about racism within Mormonism, Johnny, but the fact remains that Mormons and their leaders are just as human as anybody else, and as prone to mistake. They were and are part of their surrounding society.”
First off, McConkie is quoting a scripture that Isaiah uses in sarcasm to describe the perversion of God's word into a set of rules. Obviously McConkie doesn't understand CONTEXT, or he never would have used this phrase. Here is what Isaiah said:
9 “Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? 10 For it is: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; here a little here, a little there.” 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there— so that as they go THEY WILL FALL BACKWARD; they will be INJURED and SNARED and CAPTURED. (Isaiah 28).
(Part III) This exactly describes Young's racist doctrine and the result of it. To cut to the chase, McConkie is saying that all those 'prophets' were just wrong, but doesn’t dare admit it. How can one claim to be a prophet of God, speak with Him, get his word and law, and then have another ‘prophet’ totally contradict it 80 years later? That is what Mormonism does, CONSISTENTLY. Here is what Wilford Woodruff said in 1891:
October 16, 1894: We had meeting[s] with several individuals among the rest, Black Jane [who] wanted to know if I would not let her have her Endowments in the Temple. This I could not do as it was AGAINST THE LAW OF GOD, as Cain killed Abel. All the seed of Cain would have to wait for redemption UNTIL ALL THE SEED THAT ABEL WOULD HAVE HAD, that may come through other men, can be redeemed." -Wilford Woodruff, speaking as Prophet of the Church
So, did that happen by 1978? Nope. Not even close. On the one hand, you have men like McConkie, and a plethora of mopologists saying that these men only spoke with ‘limited knowledge’, and people like you saying:
“Brigham Young and others were racist by our standards. Big freaking deal. We cannot expect God to reveal to men living in times past what we expect them to know based on our level of knowledge.”
My point here is to express how Mormons now are dealing with the changes in doctrine that Smith and others made since the inception of the Church. Their concept of a prophet has changed, and now they claim that their prophets are only men, limited in their knowledge and that God will only reveal things to them based on that. That God himself knows all, and is able to, through revelation transcend the limitations of men is a concept that seems lost on many Mormons today
Kristyn,
Thank you for your response. I believe you are sincere and believe that the Holy Ghost that guides you is the same as with all Christian faiths, but I must humbly disagree with you that they are the same. First of all, and most importantly, the god of Mormonism is not the same as the God that is revealed in the Bible. The Mormon god is a sinful man who through hard work, determination and application of eternal principles, became a god. The Mormon god is one of many gods, a pantheon of gods, who exist in the universe. The hope of Mormon men is that they should also become gods, rule their own planets, and procreate, along with their wife, spirit children who will populate those planets.
The God who is revealed in the Bible is God. There is no other God. One of your LDS leaders, David O. Nelson, Director of the LDS Church's Melchizedek Priesthood Department said the following, "Some who write anti-Mormon pamphlets insist that the Latter-day Saint concept of Deity is contrary to what is recognized as traditional Christian doctrine. In this they are quite correct."
So you see that Mormons have a different god, a different Jesus and a different Holy Ghost who is separate from an entity called the Holy Spirit. The God of Mormonism is not the same as the God of traditional Christianity and therefore the Mormon Holy Ghost is not the Holy Ghost revealed in God's Word the Bible.
You should know this so that you don't think that the doctrine of the LDS Church, as it pertains to God, is something that it isn't. The unfortunate thing is that there are Mormons who think we're all one big happy family regarding the doctrine of the nature of God. Nothing could be further from the truth. You are following a different god and the promptings you feel you are receiving are not from the "God" of traditional, orthodox Biblical Christianity.
The fact that you don't know this is troubling.
Now what normally happens when a Mormon is faced with this information is that they shut down and take off. They will also try to find some sort of information to make it all better. The fact remains, we don't worship the same God. My hope and prayer is that God will open the eyes of your understanding that you may come to know Him.
At the very least, become knowledgeable about the difference in the teachings of the Mormon church on the nature of God and how they contrast with that of Christianity. What you do with the information will determine your eternal destiny.
Great response, thank you!
I wish mormons would treat their prophets´ teachings today the same they treat the teachings of the past – they shouldn´t take it that seriously because their leaders are only speaking with their limited knowledge that is shaped by the culture around them… I also wish they would make that disclaimer before teaching people, that all of what they are teaching are subject to future changes due to the limited light and knowledge held at the present time.
That completely obliterates their logic as to the necessity of a living prophet…
Kristyn,
What I'd like you to do for me is clearly articulate what the LDS doctrine regarding the nature of God is and contrast it with that of Biblical, traditional, orthodox Christianity and then explain to me why you think they are the same.
As a Biblical Christian, I really don't know what to make of Mormons who make the claim that, as in this example, the Holy Ghost of Mormonism and the Holy Ghost of Christianity are the same. As Christians we are left to make conclusions regarding Mormons; 1) they're ignorant, or 2) they lie, or 3) they're thinking processes are so distorted that they actually believe they're the same.
So as many have pointed out previously, if you think they are the same then Christians must be Mormons. But clearly they aren't. I would challenge you to take a look at a couple of other LDS sects, the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot for example, and contrast what their doctrine concerning the nature of God and what the Salt Lake City branch believes and note the difference.
Finally, read the new article on this blog, posted today, and note the difference between the LDS Jesus and the historical Jesus of orthodox Christianity. I'd like to know which Jesus you claim as your Savior.
"Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to His prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling."
hmmm, the Kirtland bank fiasco kind of ruins that argument…
"How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects."
It showed… lol, Too bad Joseph isn´t alive today to challenge the Watson computer in Jeopardy(Joseph said he knew more than anybody else in the world).
Kristyn, How much does the Holy ghost reveal to you? From my perspective, your response sounded more like intuition. I know it might take time, but have you given any thought as to what you pick up on? What was it that you tuned into that was the difference between JS and other authors? It might take time, and I guess its possible you may never know what the difference was, just that there was a difference. The BOM Moroni promise seems directed towards an audience which already believes in Christ. I guess the promise ends with someone who doesn't believe? Any other test for someone who doesn't believe already?
grindael, this new rational being used by Mormon apologists is'nt to surprising. They've been all
but pushed into this tactic by the shear weight of the track record of their leaders concerning all the
vacillating on doctrine . Considering the claims made by Mormon leaders sooner or later sincere
LDS see through these claims and figure out that these men may be moral but they are not reliable
spiritual guides. There's been just to many LDS who have left ,and for those who have'nt yet , these
are asking to many questions. One thing that has helped me when I was ministering to JW's years
ago was that I actually expected them to come up a response to my questions.Considering a person's
ability to rationalize out of being told they're following a false prophet, these people always had a
response . But a response is not necessarily an answer. Keep on the firing line brother ! It is worth
it when we see these people come to Jesus ! Acts 26:17-18. ww
Well I guess Kristyn went away which is too bad since I would have liked to have had her explain how the LDS doctrine of the nature of God and the orthodox Christian doctrine are the same.
It is not unusual for Mormons to claim this and it really makes one wonder what version of Mormonism they ascribe to. Now if she were a member of the Community of Christ or Temple Lot, I'd get it. But the Salt Lake City version of Mormonism has a different god, Jesus, Holy Ghost and might we add a totally different doctrine of salvation. The SLC Mormons also have a different view of the Bible (than Christians) and claim a totally different heaven.
Now how can a Mormon, and a returning missionary at that, not know these things. It's like looking at black and white and saying that they are the same because they are both colors. Mormonism is a religion that has no foundational basis in orthodox Christianity. That was the point of Mormonism as founded by the boy wonder Joseph Smith.
Why Mormons want to claim that Mormonism is Christianity is beyond me since Smith's whole program revolved around him coming up with a new idea and calling it revelation.
While I'm at it, having a good feeling about something isn't proof of confirmation by the Holy Ghost. People get good/spiritual feelings about all sorts of heretical aberrant notions. Of course they feel good about what they come up with and can ascribe positive/spiritual feelings about it.
I've seen way too much "soul" promptings masquerading as "Spirit" led words or revelation to be immediately impressed by someone's claims.
No, I am working on my reply so that it is thorough and well defended. I apologize for taking so long.
F Melo,
The pagan perspective is very different from Abrahamic thought, probably not meaningful discussion for this forum. I would say however that its NOT LDS thought.
I'm not assuming about the mental process of scrying. Its based on comments made by people who advocated scrying. I have actually attempted it, and nothing happened. There is no promise that anything would happen. Perhaps its because its too difficult to suspend my disbelief.
F Melo,
I am not sure, sometimes philophy and religion are interesting, and at other times its not interesting at all.
Are you part of JOS? I know the Al Jilwah quite well and you have some things wrong. The author of this text was a 12th century mystic named Shek Adi. The Yisedi people of Northern Iraq do not call there God Satan. They believe in Angels and in 7 heavens or something. Look it up.
I am an EXMO who became a Theistic Satanist. I am now a High Priestess and I can tell you first hand what Joseph Smith was into. I would not call him a prophet but he was a High Priest. He was told by Satan to teach his truths but instead let his ego get the best of him. He wanted MONEY and SEX. Since then it has been one Warren Jeffs after another. Only now, people are wise to the scam!
The Al Jilwah speaks great truths and I have no doubt will inspire many to look at the books and false authority the LDS/FLDS and others use to crush free will and the true inspiration of the Mormon movement. We should do what it says and reject those books and teachings that were tampered with. Satan teaches by unseen means. In other words, be quiet and accept the gift of he and our Mothers love.
I am not part of JOS or any well known group so you will not be able to contact me. In parting I would like to say Brothers and Sisters, not all of us run from the truth. I agree that Mormons are not Christians, I think the Bible is false and I I need no false prophets to tell me what to do. The keys and tokens are for all worthy decendents of Adam . That means everyone, so be true to your nature.