by grindael
Another self-proclaimed Mormon prophet has delivered a message to the world. As is usually the case with these prophets, the words are purported to come from God Himself. What follows are excerpts from four different revelations, delivered by four different prophets of Mormonism. Just for fun, I’ve delayed the identification of each prophet until the end of the post. It seems a little more interesting to compare the text and style of one revelation to another without any preconceived ideas based on their sources.
Mormon friends, do you accept any of these as true revelations given by God? Do you accept any of these prophets as true servants of God? Do you reject any of these revelations and prophets as false? Upon what do you base your conclusions?
“Hearken! Oh ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen together and open your ears, for it is I, the Lord God of all the earth, the creator of all things that speaketh unto you. Yea, even Jesus Christ speaking by the voice of my servant whom I have called and chosen to be a light and a covenant to the world in these last days…ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.” (1)
“Thus saith the Lord unto the nation…I, the Lord, am soon sending the shaking of the earth in a place in thy land not known as a usual place of violent shaking, unto the loss of many lives. Let it be known, I, the Lord, have sent my message to government officials to free my servant…to cause my people to receive back their lands and houses, and you heed me not. Thus shall I cause a great destruction in the land…to the loss of life and to your awakening, that when I, the Lord, speak, let my word be fulfilled, lest you become as a people only worthy to be swept off my land of Zion; For verily I say unto you, this earth is mine, and I have caused my people to receive a preparation work for my glorious coming on earth to establish my Zion, and they are my people…Though you deny me, know that I, the Lord, have spoken, and I send to you my word at this time, to receive my word that I shall cause my servant on earth to deliver thee a message of warning, that I, the Lord, will no longer uphold thee as a nation…” (2)
“This proclamation shall be made to all the kings of the world, to the four corners thereof, to the honorable president-elect, and the high-minded governors of the nation in which you live, and to all the nations of the earth scattered abroad…For it shall be given you by the Holy Ghost to know my will concerning those kings and authorities, even what shall befall them in a time to come. For, behold, I am about to call upon them to give heed to the light and glory of Zion, for the set time has come to favor her. Call ye, therefore, upon them with loud proclamation, and with your testimony, fearing them not, for they are as grass, and all their glory as the flower thereof which soon falleth, that they may be left also without excuse. And that I may visit them in the day of visitation, when I shall unveil the face of my covering, to appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth, if they reject my servants and my testimony which I have revealed unto them.” (3)
“And this voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days…Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of mine servants, that I have given them to preach unto you, Oh, inhabitants of the earth; therefore, fear and tremble, Oh, ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed, in them, shall be fulfilled…And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed unto the ends of the earth. And the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people. For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant. They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, after the image of his own god,…Therefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, have called upon my servants and spake unto them from heaven, and gave unto them commandments that they should proclaim these things unto the world…” (4)
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Sources:
(1) The Book of Immanuel David Isaiah, 1 (9 February 2002) and 12 (27 February 2002)
(2) Revelation given through Warren Jeffs, 2/5/2011, vv. 1-5
(3) Revelation given through Joseph Smith, 10/27/1838, Doctrine & Covenants 124:3, 5-8
(4) The Sealed Portion [Christopher Marc Nemelka, translator] 32:3-4, 6-9 (For more information on Christopher Nemelka see “Christopher Nemelka – The Reincarnated Hyrum Smith?” on mrm.org)
Sharon,
Thats amazing the quotes you have selected. They all vaguely had a very similiar sound and feel. I was thinking they were works of different LDS presidents are various times. That totally surprised me that one was as recent as 2011, by the FLDS Warren Jeffs. That offshoots of the Salt Lake LDS faith could write something so similiar sounding is interesting. The other part is that there is a sort of vague threat issued against anyone who doesn't pay attention to what these folks had to say. Its not specific, and could refer to any number of events, perhaps even their own events they have created themselves. The intent seems to sound vaguely prophetic, but its very difficult to pinpoint what exactly they are predicting.
I thought it would be interesting to quote a section without any reference. What do you think?
"I was, am now, and shall have no end. I exercise dominion over all creatures and over the affairs of all who are under the protection of my image. I am ever present to help all who trust in me and call upon me in time of need. There is no place in the universe that knows not my presence. I participate in all the affairs, which those who are without call evil because their nature is not such as they approve. Every age has its own manager, who directs affairs according to my decrees. This office is changeable from generation to generation, that the ruler of this world and his chiefs may discharge the duties of their respective offices everyone in his own turn. I allow everyone to follow the dictates of his own nature, but he that opposes me will regret it sorely. "
For a second i thought number 4 was the first session of D&C.
One thing they all have in common is that they clearly borrow biblical phrases(KJV) used in a completely different context – and that comes from that idea that God speaks Elizabethan English. I wonder how they are going to make their gobbledygook sound authoritative in this next generation that is growing up with the ESV, NIV, etc.
No god has a right to interfere in my affairs, and I have made it an imperative rule that everyone shall refrain from worshipping all gods. All of the books of those who are without are altered by them; and they have declined from them, although they were written by the prophets and the apostles. That there are interpolations is seen in the fact that each sect endeavors to prove that the others are wrong and to destroy their books.
"To me truth and falsehood are known. When temptation comes, I give my covenant to him that trusts in me. Moreover, I give council to the skilled directors, for I have appointed them for periods that are known to me. I remember necessary affairs and execute them in due time. I teach and guide those who follow my instruction. If anyone obey me and conform to my commandments, he shall have joy, delight, and comfort. "
That quote comes from the Black Book of Satan, according to the all-knowing google.
Enki, you obviously subscribe to the idea that all religions are the same, therefore you can promptly reject all of them. Religion is as anything else – it can be used for good, honest, sincere worship of a deity(s) or it can be used as a tool to manipulate people. Also, just because someone can write stuff claiming to be from a god that doesn´t keep God from actually talking and having His words recorded. The difference being that the Bible is a factual book of historical events, it´s not a made up myth composed by a bunch of hooded men in a dark cave somewhere nobody can verify. Yet you´ve informed us here in the past that you don´t consider the Bible to be a historical document, and that´s just your opinion, because both atheist and religious scholars confirm the Bible as being a historic document just as much as any other record of ancient history.
So, i hope you don´t think you´re actually being controversial because everybody here has got a lot more education on those matters than the average teen atheist.
Enki the logical question following would be – is that guy able to deliver what he promised, i mean, if i actually follow what he says will i receive those promises? Does he have that kind of authority? Also, who is the guy who wrote that, and from where did he get those teachings? Anybody can come up with anything like the Book of Mormon which is proven to be fiction, or a book of "philosophy" but like the Bible? There are no other books like it.
There´s a verse from the NT that escapes my mind at the moment, when Jesus was telling people to test His teachings by living them – if anyone remembers that reference…
So Jesus invites us to test His teachings and then see the fruits of it. The fruits of Mormonism in my life after i tested it for several years came nothing close of what was promised and therefore i can conclude them to be false.
Fmelo,
You said – ”…the Bible is a factual book of historical events… both atheist and religious scholars confirm the Bible as being a historic document just as much as any other record of ancient history”
While I agree (in faith) in the first part of the quote, the last part is totally incorrect. Any internet search will tell you that the debate over the historicity of the Bible is still raging, especially when it comes to the OT. From what I have learned, there is no evidence of any Israelite people or events as recorded in the Bible until about the time of King Ahab. Moses, Abraham, Kings David and Solomon have not been found in archaeology or history yet. Yes, there has been a stone found that says something about a household of David, but that too has controversy about it at this point in time, so nothing concrete about it yet.
Moses, being so high up in the courts of Egypt, has curiously nothing outside of the Bible proving his existence. Even the Israelites in Egypt and their departure have no real record. From a TV show I watched, archaeologists have found only one reference to ‘Israel’ in Egypt in the tomb of some unimportant courtier. It simply states that the Israelites were a small clan living in the mountains that were totally destroyed by Pharaoh. This definitely does not support the Bible’s perspective.
I could go on, but I know you won’t listen as it attacks the very foundation of your faith, so you will only listen to the scholars that support your opinion just to keep yourself happy in the knowledge that you are correct.
(cont'd)
You may say that there are events, people and places recorded in the Bible which verify its truth. While yes this is correct, the majority of these were not Israelite history but outside of the Biblical history. I can find this thing in books and movies like Forrest Gump, where many historical places, figures and events are referred to all with one character involved – Forrest Gump. Does this mean that it is true and factual? No, it’s historical fiction – which many (ie atheists and non-Bible believers) describe the Bible as being.
So please, don’t make claims that are not supported. Yes there are some atheist and religious scholars that will say the Bible is historical fact, but there are just as many atheist and religious (including Christian) scholars that do not support that point of view as there is no proof.
Besides, there are some on this website that have told me that many of the stories from the OT are just that – stories to make a point and help people to believe in God; they were not actual events.
Ralph read what i said again – "Bible as being a historic document just as much as any other record of ancient history"
I wasn´t covering the content within. The Bible is an authentic ancient document, that´s what i meant. Whether you can verify everything in it, that´s when the debate battles start. The New Testament though is pretty solid, and many objections against it have been refuted by archaeological evidence.
"Yes, there has been a stone found that says something about a household of David, but that too has controversy about it at this point in time, so nothing concrete about it yet."
It´s not just one stone, and it´s not that controversial at all. Please see – http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htm and http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/international/m… and http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ff_mesha.ht…
"Moses, being so high up in the courts of Egypt, has curiously nothing outside of the Bible proving his existence
Yes but many have argued that it was common in Egypt to have records that were embarrassing to their god-rulers erased at will, yet i´m not an expert on that subject i won´t even try to to discuss that.
" From a TV show I watched, archaeologists have found only one reference to ‘Israel’ in Egypt in the tomb of some unimportant courtier. It simply states that the Israelites were a small clan living in the mountains that were totally destroyed by Pharaoh. This definitely does not support the Bible’s perspective."
Wow, i´m surprised you´re taking those TV shows that have as an agenda to disprove the Bible that seriously. Are you a Mormon for sure, because as far as i remember Mormons do take the Bible literally…
"I could go on, but I know you won’t listen as it attacks the very foundation of your faith, so you will only listen to the scholars that support your opinion just to keep yourself happy in the knowledge that you are correct."
huahuauhahuauhauhauhahuauhauhuahuhauhahuauhauha
It attacks the foundation of my faith? Am i seriously reading that from a Mormon????????
It attacks the foundation of your faith as well, buddy – without Moses there´s no Joseph… oh, wait… that´s right, you make up your own religion, so, yesterday Moses was important, but because some tv show done by atheists said he didn´t exist you decided that you don´t need him anymore.
Did you know that if that´s true, and there´s no Moses there´s also no Book of Mormon? Yeah, that´s right – but i´m being silly here, because you believe the Book of Mormon that can´t even compare to the Bible as far as archeology is concerned – so what´s your point again? Oh, that you believe things that came out of thin air, with no basis on reality.
"So please, don’t make claims that are not supported. Yes there are some atheist and religious scholars that will say the Bible is historical fact, but there are just as many atheist and religious (including Christian) scholars that do not support that point of view as there is no proof."
Well, wasn´t your first point that those things are being debated about – if there´s a debate it´s because nothing is settled it could turn out to be true, don´t you think?
"Besides, there are some on this website that have told me that many of the stories from the OT are just that – stories to make a point and help people to believe in God; they were not actual events."
Whoever told you that isn´t really a Christian, i´m sorry. The person who says that goes absolutely contrary to what Peter said when he stated that they weren´t following cleverly devised fables. That´s what fables are – little stories that make a point to move people into action and they have no authority in and of themselves.
Also, like Paul said, if Jesus isn´t raised from the dead we are, of all people, the most pitiful, also making God to be a liar.
"I could go on, but I know you won’t listen as it attacks the very foundation of your faith, so you will only listen to the scholars that support your opinion just to keep yourself happy in the knowledge that you are correct."
No, i don´t do what most mormons do. I did research much of that and i´ve spent hours reading stuff put out by atheists throwing doubts on the Old Testament. I even began reading a book once talking about how Israel was actually a pretty small little city-country and how the "truth" would damage the Jewish people theses days even more.
So, i´m aware of it, you don´t need to(pathetically) try to protect me from reality like the "benevolent" Mormon Church does with its members.
I could pull a typical Ralph and find something, anything to support a position, whatever I'd want it to be. Ralph there isn't anyone with an once of sense that would say that the BoM is a factual historical document and you know it. Now I've interacted enough with you to know that your game is to find someone, somewhere who sometime said something about the Bible that will make you play the equivalency game i.e. "See it's just the same as what is being said about the BoM." That's that old Mormon game to come up with some obscure, totally unrelated piece of useless information and conclude, "Therefore the Mormon church is true."
The OT is a history of the Jewish people and notice there's nothing in it about a bunch of people jumping in some magic boats and getting delivered to the American continent and ending up in New York where they fought a tremendous battle.
If you want to believe the Mormon myth Ralph because it makes you feel good that's one thing, but don't even pretend that there's an once of truth in any of it.
Beautiful painting, Grindael! You should send it to those Mormon art contests, i´m sure you´ll be among the first(if they actually cared about paintings depicting true events).
No Doubt. But Smith with a peepstone? I highly doubt they would like it. They sure don't acknowledge in any paintings that Smith translated the BOM with a peepstone in a hat.
There is not one scintilla of evidence that Mormonism is true. That's a fact! That's why when push comes to shove, a Mormon has to pull out the old burning in the bosom, personal testimony as "proof" for this myth. Mormons just can't get a handle on the fact that people can have "spiritual" experiences and feelings that come out of their own souls and not the Spirit of God.
f_melo has written at length, as a former Mormon, about his spiritual experiences in Mormonism. Some how he figured out that what he was into was a self-induced state. That's why the Berean's in the Book of Acts studied the Scriptures daily to determine if what the Apostle Paul preached to them was true. "Knowing" in Mormonism is nothing less then "feeling". It's an emotional trip that has no basis in the authentically spiritual.
This is totally tongue in cheek, but you get the idea. This kind of thing isn’t hard to do.
Hearken O ye people of my Church, and hear the voice of your Redeemer, even I, who was slain from before the foundation of the world and am risen. Listen to my words and give heed, for I give unto you a new commandment, which is eternal and cannot be broken.
Have I not told you that I set my hand to recover my tribes and return them to their lands, which I the Lord have prepared for them? Therefore, a great work have I commenced that even now, will be a wonder to the world, for they shall see the salvation of the Lord, and those who will not believe shall perish.
The time is at hand, yeah the time has fully come that my Church should go and redeem the land of Zion, which is in Jackson County Missouri. I the Lord shall go before you, and clear the way, and the land will be empty before you so that ye may take possession thereof.
Therefore, gird up your loins and take only that which you can carry by vehicle, with all those that will go with you, and make haste for the land of Missouri, to build my Temple and get ready for my coming.
This I command of all my people, and speak it by the voice of my prophet, grindael, who I have appointed to lead my church and gather my people. Those who reject my prophet, reject me saith the Lord of Hosts, your Redeemer and Saviour. Therefore go now, under the direction of my prophet grindael, and see the salvation of the Lord. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I have spoken. Let those who have ears, hear the word of the Lord.
I have also seen a trend in Mormons lately, who have been using atheist sites more and more to denigrate the Bible so they can justify the shortcomings of their own prophets. I find the practice distasteful in the extreme.
Of course, false prophets would have to be much more subtle, for I can't make happen the things that I'm espousing here. But to write 'scripture' only takes a little imagination and a lot of gullible followers.
The Bible talks about "prophets" who prophesy "out of their own imaginations". You're right grindael, it's really not that big of a challenge to "prophesy" if someone is the slightest bit creative.
I like your observation about Mormons searching for information to denigrate the Bible. That's one of the signs of a cult. Cults go after the person and work of Jesus Christ, the nature of God, the Bible, the atonement, the Virgin Birth of Jesus, and the final judgment.
In order for the cult to make it, they have to "prove" that the new revelation has the real nitty gritty information that was "lost" and now "restored". It's the same game that cultists and heretics have been playing for centuries. If they spent half their time on researching their own false prophets, prophesies and religion, they'd flee the cult. But they don't because how can it be wrong when it feels so good…….to borrow a theme from Debbie Boone's 70s hit, "You Light Up My Life".
F melo,
"The difference being that the Bible is a factual book of historical events, it´s not a made up myth composed by a bunch of hooded men in a dark cave somewhere nobody can verify."
Interesting, well some monks fit that description.
Thats right its from the Al jilwah. Thank you for your thoughts about it. Did you read it and think about it before attempting to look it up? Its quite different in how its written from various LDS authors, and offshoots in the restoration movement. In a way it has nothing to do with the forum, and in a way it has some bearing. To the LDS mindset, if its not from a recognized figure in LDS history, it might as well be from the Al Jilwah. I can see how someone LDS could reject anything from an FLDS leader in that manner, not related to anything from Salt Lake.
A common attack of the LDS faith is that its Satanic, so why not compare LDS writings to actual Satanic writings? I don't really see any similiarities in style or content. The average teen atheist? what does age have anything to do with it? And who are you refering to? Why the lable of atheist?
F Melo, If you read it again, you will find that you answered your own questions. I would like to read what you find about Jesus asking people to test his teachings by living them. I promise that I will read what you have to say, its interesting. How long will it take to get a satisfactory answer? Is this also a separate question from salvation? that I understand is supposed to happen instantly. What promise are christians given? Authority? there it is again, that seems to be on the top of peoples minds. I know LDS folks place that on the top of list of things, for teaching, ordinances, holding the 'keys' to the kingdom. I understand that authority for a Non-LDS chrisitan is different, but it appears to be of equal concern. I don't know the whole story of the Al Jilwah, but its supposed to be a direct revelation from Satan. I will totally understand how someone christian of any type would want to immediately dismiss it. But as far as this page is concerned anything outside of the Bible is dismissed. the BOM, D&C, POGP, The gita, Koran etc… the question then is authority, and proof of results?
It reminds me of the guys at the airport in the robes that hand out the flowers, or the group in San Diego that all wore the same Nike tennis shoes and laid in their bed waiting for the spaceship, or the Moonies. They are sincere and emotional, and feel its their life's work to transform, witness, make anew. Emotions are deceiving. All of the above mentioned groups were sincere. It doesn't mean they were correct. And the People's Temple. They really were emotional, well intentioned. They really did start out wanting to make the world a better place (the people in the group.) The problem was. . . they were following a man. A man who was ill. We are told in the bible to never, ever, ever, follow another man, prophet, or king. Christ is our Prophet and King.
"Did you read it and think about it before attempting to look it up?"
Yes, i read it before looking it up – it didn´t resemble lds leader´s style at all, the give away was in the first line – "No god has a right to interfere in my affairs"… The writing style also doesn´t follow the Elizabethan English in the KJV either, among other things.
"To the LDS mindset, if its not from a recognized figure in LDS history, it might as well be from the Al Jilwah"
You make a good point – they only consider it if comes from one of their leaders, yet they forget that in the beginning people had to pretty much blindly trust Joseph and his claims. Today Mormons don´t want people to investigate Joseph the way people had to back then.
"The average teen atheist? what does age have anything to do with it? And who are you refering to? Why the lable of atheist?"
Age has nothing to do with it – i was just making a comparison about how some teen atheists think they are being controversial when pointing out some pseudo-controversies in the Bible that only succeed in getting attention from people who never touched the Bible and never took the time to do a more serious study of it. That was the impression that i got from your comments at first…
Why the label, Enki, you´ve been recently defending some topics that are typical of an atheist such as morality being defined by Science, you mentioned Sam Harris, your past comments about the Bible, spirituality, etc. I don´t know, what are you, Agnostic or you have no idea yet, i don´t exactly remember you defining your mindset on any worldview here, maybe i missed it.
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home….
Enki,
I noticed that you've submitted several posts about the historicity of the Old and New Testaments and, specifically, about the people, places, events, religious practices, etc. of the Bible. I thought that you may find clicking around on the website the above link leads to interesting and maybe even enlightening.
"Authority? there it is again, that seems to be on the top of peoples minds. I know LDS folks place that on the top of list of things, for teaching, ordinances, holding the 'keys' to the kingdom. I understand that authority for a Non-LDS chrisitan is different, but it appears to be of equal concern."
Of course authority is important – what is my word worth of when i promise you, for example, that you´ll be an exalted goddess if i can´t actually accomplish that… God has the authority over creation and everything else – He´s able to deliver His promises. If He says the sun won´t raise tomorrow, the sun will obey Him(i know the sun doesn´t move, i´m making a scriptural reference here), but if i say to you that i commanded the sun to not raise the next morning and the sun does rise that proves that i have no authority over it, and therefore i am in no place to make promises other than to manipulate people to do get what i want. That´s the case of Mormonism in contrast with Christianity. Joseph invented an authority of his own, so that he could be praised as a prophet speaking in the name of God, but could he actually deliver his promises? No, and we can also see that he had no gift since he made various false prophecies. In Christianity the only one with authority is God and when He calls a prophet He proves that He called that man by giving him accurate prophecies and doing great miracles through him, usually the signs accompany those men to show the world they have authority given them by God.
As for the rest of your comments, i need a little more time to find those passages of scripture to make my case.
Well, eventually they´ll have to com to grips with it. They´ll no longer be able to hide it from the younger generations that are growing up completely dependent on the internet. When that day comes you´ll have the art ready to sell them! Who knows…
"I have also seen a trend in Mormons lately, who have been using atheist sites more and more to denigrate the Bible so they can justify the shortcomings of their own prophets. I find the practice distasteful in the extreme."
That shows pure stupidity on their part, them realizing or not, the Bible is the foundation of Mormonism, in the sense that when they claim to be a restoration of the original Christian Church, they are making the statement that the New Testament is a fact! If they attack the Bible they are attacking themselves because their principles of prophecies, miracles, atonement, etc. all have their origins in the Bible and can´t be disconnected from it… So it´s attitudes like that that not only confirm that the Mormon Church isn´t a Christian Church, but that people really shouldn´t worry too much about Mormonism when they keep constantly shooting themselves on the foot. How can anybody actually take them seriously?
The real work against mormonism consists mainly of exposing their own documents dealing with their history, their terribly bad apologetics, those kinds of attitudes and, of course, the work of exposing their doctrine for what it is in the light of true Christianity.
I need a new computer, and coincidentally i received a prophecy from god as i was meditating in how much money i´d have to save to get the one i want.
A "lord" told me – Hear all nations, with fear and trembling, the word of the "lord" which I have given to my servant f_melo. Behold he is a just and humble man, devoted to accomplishing my purposes in these latter days. I command you to bless him with the computer of his choice, and all those who will bless him them will i bless with riches that there shall be no room enough to receive it. Spiritual blessing will i pour down on their heads and their eyes shall behold my glory, and this will i accomplish upon them and on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.
yadda, yadda, yadda, do what i want or god will destroy you all for your wickedness and rebellion.
That was quite a distasteful joke, i know, but it just came out without any effort, in my mission i was so accustomed to reading that kind of language that that stuff would come out easily, but, of course, it would be a fake Elizabethan English since i haven´t studied the grammar – if i really wanted to i could do what Nemelka did and sound just like Joseph Smith. I could take advantage of some folklore about some lost book and say i got a revelation about it, setting myself up as a light to the world, and start cashing in the donations to buy a new computer. That´s how easy it is, and that´s how seriously many people will take God, which is terribly unfortunate.
That´s only possible though if i intentionally take scriptures out of context and mock God.
Defenders of the Bible are always labeled 'unloving, uncooperative'. LDS explain all the time how Bible-believing, as in the Word of God, the canon of scripture is closed, Christians just don't have an open mind about prophets, how caring the LDS are, and get super-defensive and start with the 'common attack of the LDS faith is that its Satanic.' NOOOO! No one thinks the LDS are Satanic. The LDS call Christianity satanic. Go to Mormon Quotes at mormonquotes.com
Q. Who founded the Roman Catholic Church? A. The Devil, through the medium of Apostates, who subverted the whole order of God by denying immediate revelation, and substituting in the place thereof, tradition and ancient revelations as a sufficient rule of faith and practice. Q. Did the great Protestant Reformers restore the Church of Christ to the earth? A. No: for they had no inspired Apostles, Prophets, or Revelators among them, without which the Church could not be restored. Q. But did not the first Protestant Reformers receive their ordination and authority from the Catholics? A. Yes: and in this manner they received all the authority that their mother church was in possession of; and the mother having derived her authority from the Devil, could only impart that which his Satanic majesty was pleased to bestow upon her
Author: Orson Pratt
Source: The Seer
Page: 205
Ralph, look how important the Bible is to your church:
http://byutv.org/watch/2039-100
That´s an interesting documentary that highlights the importance the LDS church places on the Bible, even though they don´t care to take it authoritatively over Joseph Smith´s teachings. So, i hope you´re not one of those that go on atheist sites to denigrate the Bible, or you´re probably in apostasy…
Mormons don't seem to get the fact that prophecies can be created as can spiritual experiences. The other problem with Mormons is that they don't exercise any type of discernment to sort out and verify what is occurring in their spiritual experiences. Joseph Smith and his buddies were practitioners of folk magic and contended that they were really into some deep spiritual encounters. To Mormons, a man with a magic rock is as legitimate as any of the prophets of the OT. Mormons never met a spirit they didn't like. It's all good in their eyes.
I'm always entertained by the creative explanations Mormons have for their boy wonder Smith who roamed about the countryside with his little team of amateur occultists searching for buried treasure. As we all know, Smith said that he could see into the ground and find this treasure.
I often wonder, doesn't this just get to be too much after a while for Mormons. How can they continue to alibi, support, explain away, and rationalize this goofy behavior.
" Christians just don't have an open mind about prophets, how caring the LDS are, and get super-defensive and start with the 'common attack of the LDS faith is that its Satanic"
When they argue that just ask them when was the last time a revelation was added to Doctrine and Covenants. Gordon Hinckley´s advice on only one earring per ear doesn´t count. Protestants believe in being inspired by the Holy Spirit just as much as any mormon does, and if Mormons really believed in that concept of revelation as they use it to make themselves to be the one true church they would have just as many revelations today as they did in Joseph´s day – but guess what, apparently Mormons found out that God revealed all He had to about His nature to them, now they don´t expect God to change that(where have i heard that before)! They don´t expect "God" to come out saying he is not a physical being, that in fact he is the spaghetti monster messing with them. They have a fixed canon and dogmas just like any Protestant or Catholic Church has. If anything changes is going to be minor, such as a part of the endowment(once again), what kind of trays they use to pass the sacrament, etc.
They are now just like any other church, and they are not open to changes as the Christians can readily see when talking to them. I even remember an article in the Ensign a long time ago talking about that – how the church believes that god still would reveal many more things and asks the members if they would be willing to embrace new revelation or if they would react as many members in the past when they found out about polygamy… Once again we can see a case of deep hypocrisy in the LDS system of belief and in the way they promote themselves.
Violet,
Have current LDS leadership and church body distanced themselves from this statement? And from ones like it? I know that there has been a sort of softening of statements like that.
"No one thinks the LDS are Satanic. " Well, some do. I met a guy who ran a ministry from his home, and he called it that. There are some webpages that link J.S. to occult practices, some very dark and involving digging up bodies, something strange. And of course the use of seer stones, being likened to glass looking. There are some similiarities to those things. But I am not certain that anyone did anything as dark as what is claimed.
One of the answers i´ve got is that "…well, maybe that´s the way god started preparing Joseph to receive revelation, don´t you believe that god can reveal what he wants the way he wants – couldn´t he have used the seer stone, didn´t the Israelites have the Urim and Thummin…"
That´s annoying to answer, because they already assume that the Bible can´t be relied upon and yet they use the Bible to take stuff out of context to try to justify something that has nothing to do with anything… and while God can do whatever He wants, i´m 100% certain He doesn´t need to use Satan´s methods to communicate to whom He calls. Unfortunately i rarely get to even begin to approach the many passages that explain why God didn´t use a stone that Joseph picked up from the ground, because then i get thought-stopping answers such as "well, today what counts is the living prophets"… it´s so frustrating!!!!!
f-melo, you're to late as Ralph is indeed one who finds "ammunition " on atheist's sites to denigrate
the Bible, it's been his m.o. for a long time. This gives him a chance , with the Bible out of the way, to
bring in "latter-day revelation" to validate his desire to be worshiped one day as a Almighty God, like
we see in Rev.4:8-11, and he has admitted to this.
ww
That´s so sad… i´m sorry to hear that.
I´m going to pray for Ralph today.
f-melo, Thanks for joining the rest of us here that have been praying for Ralph. In a way Ralph
typifies one aspect of many false prophets . Let me explain. Ralph is a sincere, moral , family
oriented man, but he is misled, and since he is misled on the fundamental doctrine concerning
God, then this can bring serious spiritual consequences . Likewise there are some false prophets
who can also be sincere ,and moral men, but they teach doctrines that they really feel are
given to them from God, but are only their own reasoning. They are misled and in turn by their
emphasizing their "authority" cause many people to receive their false doctrines. The sincere
deceived followers actually believe they're being submissive to God by following his "prophet".
Many LDS don't seem to understand this about false prophets, they seem to think that a false prophet
is always like a Brian David Mitchell, an immoral strange looking type . Jesus said to BEWARE !
"Many LDS don't seem to understand this about false prophets, they seem to think that a false prophet
is always like a Brian David Mitchell, an immoral strange looking type . Jesus said to BEWARE !"
Yes, the metaphor of the wolf in sheep´s clothing that Jesus used is all about infiltration. It was to warn the church that some people would infiltrate it pretending to be good while actually desiring to destroy them when they got the chance to. So, Mormons have to realize that they have to be on the look out for those people within the Church.
What they also don´t realize is that Joseph was that wolf in sheep´s clothing infiltrating the true Church of God and leading many astray.
enki. How do you sugar coat this statement? Again, from mormon quotes.com
Go to the site yourself. Its for studying the History of the Church of the LDS. http://www.mormonquotes.com/search.php?return_url…
But who in this generation have authority to baptize? None but those who have received authority in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints: all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord�s supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the �whore of Babylon� whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.
Author: Orson Pratt
Source: The Seer
Page: 255
How can they continue to alibi, support, explain away, and rationalize this goofy behavior.
It has nothing to do with rationalization and reason, according to some Mormons I've talked to. All that matters is the personal revelation and testimony and feeling that it's true. Reason doesn't come into play at all.
I don't know WW, but I just can't get by the man with the magic rock who put it in his hat and after shoving his face in the hat to block out all of the light, received a series of floating words and called it revelation. I'm sorry I can't help myself. How in the world can people be so totally stupid, deceived, inane, uninformed, duped, conned, misled, bamboozled; pick a word that best describes this. And here's the clincher, the more you're so blunt with these Mormons, the more they believe the Smith myth. It's almost like a badge of courage and faith to embrace the myth. The more convoluted the notion, in their minds, the more faith it takes to believe it and the more true it must be.
When these folks have to resort to denigrating the Bible as a faith building exercise, you know their total desperation. Getting persecuted (as they see any criticism) makes their prophets and their proclamations even better.
I've never been in a cult so I don't know how the thinking pattern goes from direct experience. But I've observed it enough to know that the fog is very thick.
Mormons did not always denigrate the Bible. This interesting quote from the Evening & Morning Star in 1832 may be a bit eye-opening to some. Be prepared, you probably have never heard it before:
The Excellence of Scripture: The Scriptures discover not only matters of importance, but of the greatest depth and mysteriousness. There are many wonderful things in the law of God, things we may admire, but are never able to comprehend. Such are the eternal purposes and decrees of God, THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, the incarnation of the Son of God, and the manner of the operation of the Spirit of God upon the souls of men, which are all things of great weight and moment for us to understand and believe that they are, and yet may be unsearchable to our reason, as to the particular manner of them." (E&MS Vol. 2, July 1832 page 12)
And yes, I've highlighted where they praise the 'doctrine of the trinity'. Mormons have come a long way from those days….the Mormon Church today is NOTHING like the original one that Smith founded in 1830. NOTHING.
Violet,__I guess its difficult to sugar coat something like that. I guess the best they do is distance themselves from it. There is something about prophets speaking as people, and then speaking as the prophet. And there is some process of cannonization of statements. For the most part LDS ignore the many, many things said by its leadership, except if it manages to make it to the D&C, BOM etc…But I am sure there are like examples there also.
F Melo, As of late I am more agnostic, and reviewing the merits of atheism. Previously I considered myself officially neopagan.Up until a few months ago, but I would still say thats an influence. I was raised LDS, and I attended some nonlds congregations of various types just to check it out. Even listening to an Evangelical guy who started his home ministry. Nothing really to write home about.
The best thing has been doing regular meditations, that seems to improve my feeling of well-being, more tolerant of other people's baggage, and actually made me more sociable. I have a definite tenancy to not be so social, but meditation definitely helps keep that in check. I would also say its helped me to concentrate on studying, doing better in school than I ever have. For whatever reason I didn't do well while I was active LDS. I think it was because my self esteem suffered so much from its influence. A similiar effect seems to happen for me from evangelical belief.
I don't know how you find this stuff but I think it's what is known as "the smoking gun".
This religion is such a mish-mash of contradictions and yet it seems to thrive on it. It's as if head fakes, end runs, fumbles and "wide right" are all a apart of the Mormonism that its members love and cherish.
That burning in the bosom that they get must be some sensation if it gets them to suspend all credulity.
F Melo, There was a Urim and Thummin in the O.T. From what I understand it was used to ask questions, it was kind of like tossing a pair of dice. Isn't there also references to casting lots? Isn't that kind of like drawing straws? That is kind of similiar to how I Ching readings are done. Scrying is a way that people can recieve 'visions' or insights into some question or issue. Crystals, smooth rocks can be used, as well as any flat smooth relatively featureless surface. I guess more uniform than anything else. The surface of a lake or river, or a patch of cloudless sky can work, as well as expanses of landscape which are uniform. Some of the O.T. prophets reported recieving visions next to bodies of water, or from being out in the wilds. Regions of the desert with miles of sand are very uniform in texture when viewed at a distance. One shouldn't really be surprised at how often this happened to people in the desert, or even in the arctic environment. I think modern life has removed some of these experiences. We live with too much noise, activity, and we don't get out in nature as often as people did in the past.
I had this explained to me by a mormon apologist on another site. He basically said " Isn't it wonderful that God would use a boy who already had the gift and was experienced in using the rock, to translate the BoM?" Until I started to really study mormonism and it's history, I had no idea that he used a "magic rock" because the pictures and paintings are of Joseph Smith with the golden plates, looking like he's reading them. One has to question the "rock in the hat" thing! I think that the problem is, most TBM are like I was, they don't question anything and they believe whatever is put in front of them by mormon leaders. I don't think that most of them know anything about a magic rock. I surely didn't .
This post is a fantastic idea in my opinion. Thank you so much for sharing these, Sharon! It inspired me to do a sort of expanded version at my own blog with sixteen selections instead of four: http://study-and-faith.blogspot.com/2011/03/name-…
falcon, I share your frustration in trying to understand how a person could embrace Mormonism.
I do believe they are not stupid people, just misled . I think it all gets down to the how they were
influenced into embracing Mormonism. These people really believe that in order to gain God's
favor, receive His blessings etc, that they have to therefore submit to " God's spokesman", His
prophet. It's their devotion to God that is manipulated by stressing their need for the prophet.
Once a person has crossed that threshold in their mind, then practically whatever the prophet
says ( or does) can be explained as God's will. To have one man at the top having this authority
is dangerous, and it certainly is not the New Testament arrangement. Keep praying for these
precious people ! ww
Yea, I must say I'm stuck on the magic rock in the hat trick. I would think that would be enough to have these Mormons put the brakes on and scream "WHOA!" But alas, when many of them find it out it becomes an enhancement rather than a detraction from their faith in the boy wonder Smith. I've got a book here called "Temple Manifestations" that I've quoted from quite a bit in the past. One of the early Mormon prophets claimed that the original signers of the Declaration of Independence appeared to him demanding temple work be done for them. It doesn't get much more bizarre than that but in Mormonism, true believers are in for a penny and a pound both.
Just think about how their thinking has to be flipped to keep up their faith in this charade. The Bible is questioned but a "prophet's" dabbling in the magic arts and the conjuring of spirits is seen as good. Tapping into the occult spirit world ought to be enough of a tip off that this sect is into something very sinister.