Mitt Romney’s second campaign for President is, predictably, generating a lot of talk about Mormonism. And, again predictably, Mormons are stepping up their online efforts to set the record straight. Latter-day Saint Dinah Chance from Freeport, Florida wrote a letter to the editor of The Northwest Florida Daily News in which she stated,
“If Christians would put aside their petty doctrinal differences and love one another in the name of Jesus Christ, great changes would occur in our beloved country. Baptist, Evangelical, Methodist, Catholic and a host of other Christian religions are founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sadly, it seems they just can’t love one another because of too much pride in their doctrinal differences.
“How Christian is that? What does Jesus think? Did He die for this?
“My point: Mitt Romney is a Christian! Mormons are Christians! Anyone who says differently is an uneducated person.
“…Christians need to love and band together for the sake of this country.”
As is obvious from her stated “point,” Ms. Chance was not talking about the “petty doctrinal differences” between “Baptist, Evangelical, [and] Methodist” denominations (etc.); she was talking about the differences between Christian faiths and Mormonism.
We’ve talked about many of these doctrinal differences before. They include things like: the nature of God, the nature of man, the nature of salvation, the nature of the Atonement, the nature of grace, the nature of prophets, the nature of Scripture, etc. (there is virtually no end to these doctrinal differences). By no means “petty” issues.
Frankly, it’s surprising to hear Mormons suggest that the doctrinal differences between Christianity and Mormonism are of little importance or trivial. Didn’t Joseph Smith say false doctrine was one reason God needed him to remain separate from Christian churches in 1820 and restore the true church? Smith wrote:
“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’” (Joseph Smith—History 1:18-19)
If these abominable creeds reflected mere petty differences, if what was taught for doctrine was really of little importance, why bother with the whole Restoration? Did Joseph Smith have “too much pride in [his] doctrinal differences” to love Christians and work with them for the greater good?
I invite Mormons everywhere to set aside whatever petty (as you say) doctrinal differences you have with biblical Christianity to band together with Christians in love and worship of the One True God – not for the sake of the country, but for the sake of your souls, and to fulfill the higher call of Christ for His glory.
The article quoted a lady/person saying:
“How Christian is that? What does Jesus think? Did He die for this?
Did this person ever read the Bible. Jesus confronted the religious leaders of His time, he called them a brood of vipers.
Jesus points out time and again, they want to live in darkness and reject the truth, the religious leaders even accused Jesus of being from the Devil.
Paul tells us in Gal that if anyone teaches a different gospel they will be damned.
I wonder what the person I quoted thinks of these verses?
I can add more if needed. The Bible is clear, we MUST worship JESUS IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
Also the LDS want us to simply set aside doctrinal issues and call them brother/sister. But I bet my life I still must believe what they teach in order to be saved or if I joined their church I would need to openly confess what they believe or never amount to nothing in the church.
I’m wondering what the leaders at LDS church headquarters think about this letter to the editor by Ms. Chance. I would think an interview with her bishop would be in order. The LDS church in no way supports Christian doctrine. Petty or otherwise. They would love to be called and accepted as Christians, but why? If they want to be Christians then why not simply take up the Bible and follow the True and Living Christ? Past LDS leaders didn’t seem to want anything to do with Christianity:
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century,” (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167)
“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:230)
I must have missed something because Mormonism certainly isn’t defined at all in the New Testament. Why even use the Bible at all?:
LDS Apostle Orson Hyde – “The Bible is not a sufficient guide; it is only the history of the people who lived 1800 years ago” (Journal of Discourses 2.75).
Well at least it’s a true history of true people who lived 1800 years ago! What is the Book of Mormon? No history can be substantiated.
I especially love this one, notice how Spencer W. Kimball talks about “hundreds of millions of dollars” :
“This is the only true church …This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves” (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421)
I think what Spencer W. Kimball was describing here fits the LDS church to a “T”. We don’t have to look any further than the nature of God to see that Christianity and Mormonism are two totally different and separate religions. Mormonism is not and has never been Christianity. None of the Mormon gospel is found in the Bible. Christ said that there would arise many false Christs and this is exactly what he was talking about. Just because a religion follows a false Christ, does not make them Christian. In case there are Mormons here who think that Mormonism follows the Christ of the Bible let me give you a quote from your own pres. Hinkley:
“The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.” (Church News, June 20, 1998, p. 7).
Now the only problem with this is that there are 9 different accounts of the first vision, in many of them he says that an angel came to him not the Father and the Son, so can this be trusted? Also, the “traditional Christ” that is found in the Bible and has been worshiped by millions of true Christians for nearly 2,000 years, the Christ who Saves by Grace is NOT the Christ of whom Mormons believe in. This is not a “petty doctrinal difference” and is one of the more serious doctrines that show Mormonism is not Christian.
Rick and Kate, very informative responses. Excellent.
I wonder what Dinah Chance would think of John Taylor’s “perfect pack” quote? One thing I will say about John Taylor: I respect him for being very candid about what he believed. He did not “beat around the bush.” No nuance here. And that’s a good thing, as one can read his writings, and know just what he believed.
Dinah Chance is naive and uninformed and I would add, not a very good Mormon. If she were a good Mormon she would defend the differences between Mormonism and normative Christianity. Jim Spencer, in his work “Have You Witnessed To a Mormon Lately” identifies the different types of Mormons. According to Jim there’s the Arrogant True Believer, the Naive True Believer, the Uninterested Moderate Believer, the Interested Moderate Believer, the Closet Doubter and the Open Doubter.
The Arrogant True Believer is convinced that he’s a member of the Only True Church, and he has never encountered serious challenge to his faith. He does not readily listen to anything and he may be brash. He pities those who are not Mormons.
The Naive True Believer is also convinced about Mormonism. But, unlike his arrogant counterpart, the Naive True Believer is shocked to discover serious challenges to his faith.
The Uninterested Moderate Believer is uninterested because he isn’t interested in hearing any other point of view while the Interested Moderate Believer wants to talk. He may simply have an academic interest in debate or he may be seeing things in Mormonism that disturb him. He may be on the verge of becoming a Doubter. Arrogant True Believers often masquerade as Interested Moderate Believers.
So with Dinah we can only conclude that she’s just part of the traditional Mormon smoke machine or she is clueless about the differences between Mormonism and Christianity.
In today’s world, Mormons do attempt to hide the truth about Mormonism both the doctrine and the history. Mormons know that people won’t be open to their message if they know the truth about Mormonism. Most people are just not that gullible or willing to jump on the Mormon bandwagon once the truth becomes known. Mormons just hope against hope that if they can just get people into the cult and acculturate them to the sect, the person will not be inclined to leave.
I’m guessing the retention rate for Mormon converts isn’t real high.
Might I add that one of the reasons that people like Ms. Chance think as they do may be that Christians, in many churches, are no longer being taught the Bible either. This is not new to this age, as I believe that what made Mormonism possible to begin with was a lot of people who were seriously open to being misled because of a lack of true and deep knowledge of the Word of God.
One major part of the work of the church is to be “the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.” Some Pastors and congregants seem to believe that only those “called to preach” or “called to be missionaries” need a deep and firm grounding in the Word of God. This is so wrong! Ignorance of the Word, or confining oneself or one’s congregation continually to the milk of the Word, or, worse yet, giving them nice little weekly talks that teach little, equip little, challenge little is setting the sheep up for the wolves!
Christians also contribute by, unlike the Bereans, failing to search the Word to see if what is being preached to them is true, using the Bible as their standard.
Stay in the Word!
gsparks,
Couldn’t agree with you more and honestly, it wouldn’t take much to get the average Joe Doakes Christian sitting in the pew up to speed on the basic doctrines of the faith. I picked-up a little book by Walter Martin a several years ago titled “Essential Christianity”. It goes through the basic doctrines of the traditional orthodox Christian church in an uncomplicated, straight forward manner. I’ve posted this before but just so folks might know where the comparison with groups such as the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses should be made, here it is again.
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Trinity/One God, three persons.
3. The deity of Christ-He is God.
4. The Virgin birth of Christ.
5. Christ died for us. The blood atonement.
6. Jesus resurrection.
7. Saved by grace a part from works.
8. Jesus Second coming.
9. The final judgement of God.
These are the areas the cults and aberrant religious groups, claiming to be Christian, are significantly different (from Christianity). When it comes to Mormons, it’s no small, trivial matter that they believe in a different God the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. The atonement of Christ; is that a trivial matter?
It would be like a player showing up in a basketball uniform to play football or hockey. It would be very obvious that something wasn’t right. That’s how Christians need to be able to identify heresy, aberrant teachings and cult behavior.
Thanks, Falcon! I just popped on again to make sure that the Christian posters here are aware that I know I’m “preaching to the choir!” I know that the reason the Christian posters are here is to help others see the truth of the Word and that you all wouldn’t be here if studying the Word of God was not of great importance to you.
I so badly want Christians to be properly fed with God’s Word! It is, as Walter Martin indicated, essential!
Looking back on my homeschooling experience with my children, one of my few regrets, though we spent regular time in the Word, in Bible memory, and so on, was that we didn’t spend much, much more time in the Word. I had my mind, too often, just on meeting the academic requirements. More of what I did to accomplish that could have been geared toward the Word! One thing I look back on with fondness is that their handwriting each day consisted of writing a Bible verse or passage (same one each day for one to two weeks depending upon difficulty). In the process, I wrote out the verse each day for both of them to copy. This meant that I had the honor, pleasure, and opportunity of writing the passage out 10 to 20 times per week. That helped with MY memorization!
True Blue here, or as some would criticize “Arrogant True Believer”. 🙁
Just some musing on my part about labeling. I wonder if my Christian friends that
don’t seem to be bothered to much about our doctrinal differences would appreciate
any insightful remarks or lack of insightfulness on my part regarding Orthodox Christians and normative Mormons.
I could say, there is the Praise the Lord Christian, The Confused Believer, The Peaceful Believer and finally what the Missionaries call the Golden Believer.
1). Praise the Lord Christian — wears his faith on his sleeves, ever ready to yell, scream in your face type. Kind of the over the top Christian.
2). The Confused Believer — Not very learned, can not explain the Nature of God to a friend, to family or his/her children. Creedal Confusion .
3). Peaceful Believer —- these are like most of my Christian friends. Family concerned Christians. Would vote for the person who would be best for the Country regardless of faith. The same type of Christian who voted for Kennedy (Catholic). Watches Glenn Beck, type. Over 500,000 Christians and Mormons at the Washington Mall coming together as one.
4). The Golden Believer Christian — Believes, has Faith, knows the scriptures. Best kind of Christian for the Missionaries to sit down with and explain the Plan of Salvation with. The short label is Golden Investigator.
Possible scenario:
Now the hard question — We have a Democrat running to represent his party and the elected Republican (Mormon) candidate who will represent his party.
We already know the Democrats history and his success or failure for the last four years. The Republican candidate is Mormon. We also know his history as a politician.
We know little about Obama as a Christian except for where he spent his last 20 plus years sitting in a Christian Church pew listening to what he claims is Orthodox Christianity.
Problem?
1). Vote for a Republican who is Mormon
2). Vote for a Democrat who is Christian
3). Vote for a Democrat because he is not Mormon.
4). Vote Religion over what’s best for the Country.
5). Vote regardless of Religion but what’s best for Country.
6). Stay home, don’t vote because you hate Mormon Doctrine and also hate
Democrat Liberalism (Radical Socialism)
gpark said
This is sad, so sad, yet so true. The Church I go to here in Saint Paul MN, Teach the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter. We go from Genesis to Revelation, We never skip any books saying stuff like, Thats to hard, or that book is sealed or any stupid stuff.
Also I could list 5 doctrines people believe that I dont believe are biblical yet are being taught. But I wont since I know some stuff I could mention is believed by Christians on this blog. And they would not be open for debate. Sad but true.
gpark, I SO agree. I do think most churches are offering basic Christianity/Reading-the-Bible type classes, I don’t think many Christians are signing up for them. It always amazes me at how many Christians there are that don’t know their own beliefs. My husband says that a lot of the more trendy churches seem to be dumbing it down. While I think it’s important to make the gospel understandable, there are some serious doctrinal issues being overlooked. Also, plenty of people are being saved, but then they think that’s the end of it. They’re good. Consequently, they fall back into their old routine and then get sucked in to either a sinful lifestyle (not learning how to fight temptation and attacks from the enemy) or a cult. It’s dangerous out there, and Christians need to be fully equipped. I think that’s why Mormons like to prey on Christians… if they aren’t grounded in the Word, they’re so easy deceived by things that sound like they may have come out of the Bible. Scary, Scary.
Falcon, I read that book too. I actually enjoy labeling the Mormons I encounter sometimes. They all seem to fit at least one of those categories.
I have been a Christian for about a year now. I have learned so much from my little Christian church. The Pastor is wonderful! Not only does he teach deep stuff from the pulpit but our Sunday school teacher also teaches from the Bible and we have had some great in depth discussions! Every song sung is praising the Lord, I even took a new believer’s class that the Pastor was teaching. I love attending Bible study classes. I’m not in one right now and should get my butt back there. For me, attending my Christian church is so DIFFERENT than when I attended the LDS church. I don’t know how many more times I could have learned about my 72 hour kit or food storage. What I find amusing is that in Relief Society, someone from the bishopric has to sit in on the meeting every week. I guess he’s there to make sure nothing that shouldn’t be taught, is taught. They didn’t used to do that, but they do now. Women in the LDS church can’t do anything without a priesthood leader! I’m sure what you guys are saying is so true. I just haven’t experienced that yet. Hopefully my Christian church will always feed me spiritually. What also helps is that my Pastor and several people at church were once Mormon and have left, so I have had people who have been through the same thing as me. Obviously Christians are not being taught all they need to be or else there would be no Christian converts to the LDS church. I think the other big problem is that LDS missionaries are dishonest and/or flat out lie (as they are taught to do in the MTC) and they make Mormonism sound so much like Christianity only with a few “perks” like families forever, that Christians don’t see it as the fraud that it is.
I think Mormon missionaries should be required to say,
“We Mormons believe in a different god. In fact we believe there are perhaps millions or billions of gods and that men following the correct program, will become gods also just like the god who rules our planetary system. The wives of the men who become gods will become goddesses and they and their god husbands will procreate spirit children……..on and on.
But are Mormons that straight forward? Never! And that should be all a Mormon needs to know about their religion; the fact that they won’t tell people what they believe. So here we have Dinah Chance asking the Rodney King question, “Can’t we all just get along?” It’s not a matter of getting along. It’s a matter of being honest and forth coming with people instead of attempting to trivialize the differences between Christians and Mormons.
I have no interest in getting along with Mormons if what that means is that we gloss over the significant differences in doctrine. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t be congenial in my interactions with Mormons. As Christians we aren’t called upon to get along with heretics and cultists when it comes to religious dogma and practice. We can contend for the faith without being contentious. But we are called to stand firm.
Helen.
Seriously? You’re campaigning on here? You forgot to mention this problem:
Will a Mormon President go against his church and do what is right for his country or will he do what his prophet tells him to do?
Do a little research into your Mormon church’s past before you answer that question. Please don’t whine about your Mormon candidate not being treated fairly. Honestly, it’s politics! No candidate is treated fairly! In fact you just threw Obama under the bus in the same breath you used to complain about no one wanting a Mormon for President!
Kate how is that campaigning when Diana Chance stated the following:
“My point: Mitt Romney is a Christian! Mormons are Christians! Anyone who says differently is an uneducated person.
“…Christians need to love and band together for the sake of this country.”
Did the Pope make decisions for Kennedy? I not complaining about Romney not being treated fairly, in fact I think he may well end up as the Republican Candidate who will go against Obama. Who would you vote for?
Falcon. You’re right, if we knocked on someone’s door and stated that they can become Gods and Goddesses, rule over their own created planets and have millions and billions of spirit kids, gee I would throw them out also. Good point, so we will caution the Missionaries to be careful not to spill the beans until their hooked and we can drain them of all their income through tithing. 🙂
Helen/Louis
Helen,
Sorry, you’re right, I was under the impression that this thread was more about the “petty doctrinal differences.” I don’t really think it’s anyone’s business who I would vote for, but since you brought it up, I could easily ask you the same thing? Would you vote for Romney just because he’s a Mormon? The Pope is a little different than the LDS prophet. Like I said, do some research into your church’s past before answering this question.
I also agree with falcon, the LDS missionaries should lay it all out on the table so the investigator has all the facts before he is baptized. How dishonest, how misleading. You sarcastically say this to falcon:
Falcon. You’re right, if we knocked on someone’s door and stated that they can become Gods and Goddesses, rule over their own created planets and have millions and billions of spirit kids, gee I would throw them out also. Good point, so we will caution the Missionaries to be careful not to spill the beans until their hooked and we can drain them of all their income through tithing. 🙂
The sad thing is Helen, this is exactly what the LDS do. For once you spoke the truth about Mormonism.
Yes a little sarcasm, but essentially true that the point Falcon made makes sense, I can’t imagine that the GA’s are ever going to tell the Missionaries too knock on someone’s door and teach the meat before the milk. Why? because we wouldn’t get into many doors ways if we did. So point made by Falcon only brings up the point of why would we? Is it the honest thing to do? or is the right way to do it more important? I can imagine myself having someone knock on my door teaching strange doctrine, sorry boys, but your religion is not what I have been taught by my Pastor and Preachers.
What if you find out once we get beyond the veil that Plural Marriage is Gods Law. Yet when taught on earth we find it abhorrent and foreign to our teachings at least here in America. Surprise, Gods ways are not our ways.
I apologize for the sarcasm, but I see that others also have some fun with it here at MC.
Helen,
Mormons and Christians do not need to pretend that we have the same doctrine or confessions. Mormon beliefs exclude what I understand to be Scriptural Christianity – it is far from the faith of which I am convinced is true, the doctrine and beliefs I hold to be true: Salvation by Grace through Faith – a free gift of pardon from all sins obtained through Christ dying on the Cross for my sins and conquering death in His resurrection. Jesus shed his blood as the final and all sufficient blood of the sacrifices in Tabernacle which were sprinkled on the Holy of Holies. The OT sacrifices looked forward to the coming Messiah who would offer His life as the final sacrifice on the cross, rending the separation between man and God and seen in the tearing of the veil or curtain outside the Holy of Holies when Jesus died. The sin separating man from God has been atoned for; we are forgiven in Christ and the separation between God and man is gone – we will be with God eternally. God creates faith to believe His promise of salvation through Christ in my heart by hearing of Jesus complete accomplishment of salvation. He calls me His own in baptism, and strengthens my faith communion.
If Mormons are right, then I am wrong. If what I believe to be Christianity is true, then Mormons are wrong. Let’s not pretend, both cannot simultaneously be true Christian belief. We can work together to defeat abortion and stand for good in our society. But don’t try and pretend we share the same faith. What’s the point in that? These are not petty differences, but rather the bedrock of what I believe to be Scriptural truth as a Christian –and it far different from Mormon belief.
Helen,
You indeed are a beauty! It is really hard for me to take you seriously, sarcasm not with standing.
Are you serious regarding what you said about “BEYOND THE VEIL”. Sounds like a bad line from a horror movie. So anyway, are you going to practice plural marriage? You know the apostles and all the early disciples of Jesus did. They used to tramp-off to the Christian temples in the first century with their many wives and perform rituals that they got from the Free Masons of their time. The Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and even the early heretics wrote about this, right? Archeologists have uncovered countless Christian temples of the first century were all of these sacred rituals were performed. I bet they even wore magic underwear and had magic rocks they put in their hats to divine the will of God. Man it’s really a good thing that Joseph Smith restored all of this or we wouldn’t know about it. I think that this would also be a good topic for the boy missionaries to discuss with their prospects. While they are at it, they could give show replicas of the little special boats that the ancient Jews transported themselves in from Palestine to New York or where ever the LDS church says they landed.
Mormons with their “milk before meat” is a version of “lying for the Lord”. Mormonism, has as it’s foundation, lies, deceit and a misleading of people. It started with Joseph Smith and continues today. Smith and his home boys use to lie right to peoples’ faces regarding their practice of polygamy. It was the same lame Mormon excuse of only the truly special spiritual people that God has chosen to reveal this sacred practice can truly accept and believe it.
What a farce!
You know Helen,
What’s that saying? “Out of the mouths’ of babes”. Now I have no idea if you’re a babe or not but your comment that the reason you Mormons don’t tell people the truth is because you want to hook them into the program and then start hitting them up for the 10% tithe. At last, an honest Mormon. LDS Inc. is a virtual money machine. Not only do Mormons not tell the prospects about the man/woman to god/goddess transformational program, they don’t tell them that it’s going to cost them 10% of their income to get into the Celestial Kingdom. So that’s the fantastic flim-flam scam that LDS Inc. runs on those folks who have been seduced into thinking a man with a magic rock has the answer and keys to eternal life.
So pay-up your 10%, work yourself to death for the cult, abstain from coffee etc. and wear magic underwear and you can become a god. Yea, that’s something people will want to jump right into.
Just tell em the truth and watch them run as fast as they can…………..away from you.
It’s not the goal of myself or those who post here to argue with a bunch of TBMs. The goal is to bring the truth to those who’ve started to figure out that Mormonism is not only a false religion, but one that enslaves them to a tedious treadmill of false hope.
Hi, Helen.
Reading what you’ve written gets the little wheels turning in my mind. Thanks.
You’ve asked an interesting question: “Is it the honest thing to do? or is the right way to do it more important? I can imagine myself having someone knock on my door teaching strange doctrine, sorry boys, but your religion is not what I have been taught by my Pastor and Preachers.”
Here’s how I would answer your question: The honest thing to do is the right thing to do.
“What if you find out once we get beyond the veil that Plural Marriage is Gods Law. Yet when taught on earth we find it abhorrent and foreign to our teachings at least here in America. Surprise, Gods ways are not our ways.”
I agree with you that God’s ways are not our ways. Do you know why early LDS leaders believed plural marriage is God’s law? I think it was partly because they also believed that monogamy was not a divine institution. John Taylor, for instance, dismissed it and its defenders in blistering terms. Yet God ordained monogamy way back in Genesis. I can’t think of anything I’ve read about God’s character and ways that I would find “abhorrent and foreign.”
“I apologize for the sarcasm, but I see that others also have some fun with it here at MC.”
I think it’s fine to bring a little lightheartedness here, Helen. I probably take myself too seriously at times. Jesus often used humorous sarcasm, so no apology necessary. You’re always welcome here.
One more point that differs from your point of view Helen – I believe that people are redeemed by God’s mercy by hearing the full story of how the triune God sent His only Son to die on a cross for the sins of the world. Rather than hiding what we believe, the clear proclamation of the cross is precisely the means by which God grants faith and repentance.
45s,
Key concept, “hiding what we believe”. Isn’t it interesting how Mormons can justify this form of lying? If Mormons believe that they have all these wonderful truths, aren’t they compelled to broadcast them loud and clear? Does the Mormon god encourage them to lie? Remember, the Mormon god use to be a sinful man who is continually progressing to more and more knowledge and wisdom. Maybe he just hasn’t worked-out the honesty portion of his character at this point.
I believe one of the commandments tells us that we shouldn’t lie. There are lies of omission and lies of commission. Mormons have been known to do both and justify it and even feel righteous and hyper-spiritual despite the obvious systemic lies within the LDS religious system.
I don’t know why it’s so important for Mormons today to be accepted by the mainstream religious (Christian) community. There was a time when Mormons were incredibly combative and in the face of the Christian religion. Remember their little drama they use to do in the temple mocking the Christian minister? That went away as much has within Mormonism due to its “progressive” nature.
Helen said
Lets be honest, it’s more a matter of fact that they are told to push their beliefe and if challanged by people like us on this blog, they are to bear their testamony and leave or throw out the spitir of contention card.
As far as the milk before meat verse, I’m getting tired of you guys abusing that verse and taking it out of context.
Here is the verse,
The vast majority of Christians on this blog are skilled in the word, we can quote scripture and use the Bible, yet you LDS tell us we are not skilled. Helen I recall you telling me not to judge you, I did not judge you, but here you LDS judge us telling us we are unskilled. We know are scripture as well as yours. So dont pull the meat before milk crap. You guys cannot handle the truth, so you simply use that as a means of avoiding the truth.
Helen,
I love a little sarcastic humor, I use it myself. The thing that I find interesting about your comment is the fact that you said:
“What if you find out once we get beyond the veil that Plural Marriage is Gods Law. Yet when taught on earth we find it abhorrent and foreign to our teachings at least here in America. Surprise, Gods ways are not our ways.”
Ummm….According to Mormonism and the first several prophets of the LDS church, polygamy IS your god’s law. Yet you don’t practice it (except in your temples) like faithful followers of Joseph Smith. Why is that? I would like a sincere answer, not the generic ” We believe in following the laws of the land.” Really, tell me why. Are you and Louis practicing polygamy? According to D&C132 Louis won’t be going to the Celestial Kingdom at all if he doesn’t practice polygamy in this life. Plenty was said by LDS prophets about those who don’t practice it now and for eternity. How can LDS prophets like Gordon Hinkley say many times publicly that polygamy is an abomination in Gods sight? He knew full well that it is being practiced in the LDS temples daily and that Mormon doctrine teaches that men will become gods of their own world and be living polygamy for eternity. Isn’t that a form of lying? Polygamy is very much a part of LDS doctrine and beliefs yet your prophets are still lying about it just as Joseph Smith lied about it. You also asked if it was better to tell the truth or do it the right way?? What?? I absolutely think it’s important to tell the truth. Did Jesus tell the apostles to just go out and lie to everyone? I don’t think so. The lies and deceit are what’s bringing so many Mormons out of the faith. Yes, truth from the LDS church would be refreshing!
Kate, polygamy is abhorrant. So what is Gods Law? is it polygamy as man sees it, or is it entirely different from the course carnal nature of man and his corrupt version. What do Christians know about Celestial Sealing for time and eternity. The carnal man, sees it as endless sex with countless Goddesses. LOL at the naïvety of those who continue to mock something they only can dream about.
Brian, as honest as it might be and what you consider the right way. Reality is that you and I both know that the Missionary efforts to convert our Golden Contacts would diminish greatly our conversion successes. Wise are the Authorities and most likely the revelation they received in how to proselyte new contacts. Like I said, exposing myself to such foreign teachings would have resulted in me slamming the door and yelling, ” get the heck our of here and don’t ever let you shadow darken my door again.”
Falcon, “just tell them the truth and watch them run as fast as they can”. Yes the “Truth” is a hard thing to swallow. Watch them run, yes and that’s exactly what Noah told them (truth) as they laughed and ran away. Then there was Christ, He told the truth, they mocked and spit on Him, as they ran away from Him.
Rick B.
Here are some more for your personal study.
1 Corinthians Chapter 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1 Peter chapter 2:1-2:
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
Rick B. you quoted Hebrews but left out verse 12 so for more clarity I will quote it.
Hebrews chapter 5, verse 12
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Helen said
Funny how members of the church can recive currant and updated revelation on how to make converts. Yet they cannot get revelation on things that really need to be cleard up, like Blacks turning white vs pure, Adam God, Polygamy, Etc. Helen why might that be?
Helen you can give me all the verse you want, but if we read and know your scripture and flat out ask spefic questions, and you guys dodge them and refuse to answer them, then it’s not a matter of milk before meat, it’s a matter of you cannot answer them and dont really care to know the truth or share it with us. Rick b
Petty Doctrinal Differences? Rick B. I don’t see where you addressed this?
“If Christians would put aside their petty doctrinal differences and love one another in the name of Jesus Christ, great changes would occur in our beloved country. Baptist, Evangelical, Methodist, Catholic and a host of other Christian religions are founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sadly, it seems they just can’t love one another because of too much pride in their doctrinal differences.
“How Christian is that? What does Jesus think? Did He die for this?
Helen,
You said: “Kate, polygamy is abhorrant. So what is Gods Law? is it polygamy as man sees it, or is it entirely different from the course carnal nature of man and his corrupt version. What do Christians know about Celestial Sealing for time and eternity. The carnal man, sees it as endless sex with countless Goddesses. LOL at the naïvety of those who continue to mock something they only can dream about.”
Are you kidding me? Polygamy is polygamy! One man married to more than one woman or we could talk about polyandry, the practice of one woman married to more than one man because that is what Joseph Smith made of about a dozen women while their husbands were off on missions. Polygamy is still in D&C132 and all Mormons that I know truly believe it is of god and will be practiced again in this life, just not right now because “they have to obey the laws of the land.” I’m also wondering how you know the mind of your god and his definition of polygamy?? How do you know it isn’t just as it is here on earth? When a man becomes a god of his own world and has MILLIONS of spirit wives to “somehow” procreate spirit children to send down to his earth, that is still polygamy.
You said: “Watch them run, yes and that’s exactly what Noah told them (truth) as they laughed and ran away. Then there was Christ, He told the truth, they mocked and spit on Him, as they ran away from Him.”
Yes but Noah and Christ both told the TRUTH! The were not liars or deceivers of men. Christ is honest and tells the truth to us in the Bible and we are to have faith in him and by his Grace we are saved in him. Tell me something, the LDS are really big on the 10 commandments. What happened to “Thou shalt not lie?” You openly admit that LDS missionaries and LDS authorities lie by omission. So according to you when a missionary knocks on a “golden christian’s” door, they immediately lie by omission, deceiving them into a false religion. Here’s another problem, what happens when a convert hears the truth about Mormonisms false doctrines? Do they feel betrayed? Are they angry? Do they have their records removed or become inactive. I think yes. So really, what has that gained the LDS church? Here are a few quotes from LDS leaders:
“If faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” – George A. Smith; 1871, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, pg. 216
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” – J. Reuben Clark; D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24.
Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. IF JOSEPH WAS A DECEIVER,WHO WILLFULLY ATTEMPTED TO MISLEAD PEOPLE, THEN HE SHOULD BE EXPOSED, HIS CLAIMS SHOULD BE REFUTED AND HIS DOCTRINES SHOWN TO BE FALSE…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954), vol. 1 pp 188-189)
Aren’t LDS missionaries deceiving and aren’t they willfully attempting to mislead people? Well I am here to expose the LDS church and I refute all claims and I will show LDS doctrines to be false, how? By using the Word of God. As a new Christian, I have investigated many different Christian sects, what is so amazing to me is that the core doctrines are all the same. Yes they may worship a little differently from each other, but I would think that God loves variety. One last question, I want to know how Ms. Chance or you for that matter, know what is in any Christian’s heart or how they feel about each different sect and their doctrines? How do you know they “just can’t love one another because of too much pride in their doctrinal differences.” Is this something that you both have been taught at your LDS church?
Nice try Helen.
That’s the old argument from equivalency that Mormons try to pull out. That is, try and find something in the Bible to link their lies and deceptions to and say, “See we’re just the same as……..(pick a Bible verse or character).
In this case you pulled out Noah and Jesus. It won’t work Helen. The lies, deceit and misinformation pumped out by LDS Inc. and it’s minions and false prophets is nothing like the truth told by Noah or our Lord. You should be ashamed for attempting to link Noah and Jesus with the the abominable doctrines and practices of the Mormon church.
I get it Helen. You’re under a spirit of deception, that you’ve willingly given yourself over to, so the truth isn’t apart of your witness.
The contrast between you and the exMormons who post here is dramatic. Freed from the bondage of the spirit of Mormonism, they now walk in the light and in the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are led and indwelt by the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would lead believers into all truth. Having received the authentic Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit in Jesus for that day of judgement.
The “petty differences” between authentic Christianity and cults is the difference between goats and sheep. On that day, their will be a separation. The sheep know the voice of the Shepard, the goats do not and refuse to obey Him. Mormonism produces goats.
Helen said
Falcon says, “The contrast between you and the exMormons who post here is dramatic.
Kate (ex mormon) says, “Well I am here to expose the LDS church and I refute all claims and I will show LDS doctrines to be false, how? By using the Word of God.”
I agree very dramatic; to the point I have a feeling she wants so hard to believe she has made the right decision versus the unknowing indecision of yet understanding why she left Mormonism. Just a hunch.
Nice try? yea I tried to slide that one in, but you can’t fool a fool all the time 🙂 just a little sarcasm don’t get all excited and make me have to apologize again.
Quote you, ” Having received the authentic Jesus ” why would you have to label Christ? Jesus is Lord and Savior how more authentic can you get? 🙂
Check it out Rick B. Comparison of Christian Denominations’ Beliefs
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/denominations_beliefs.htm
I think you are in denial of you own differences. I am off topic here, but if you would just allow me to explain. There are your Bible believers who follow the Bible as their inerrant rule for faith and life and those who put no such faith in the Bible and see it as one of many tools.
Oh Helen, I know exactly why I left Mormonism. If you think it was easy learning all of the lies, deceit and untruths about God, Jesus, The Holy Ghost, Salvation by Grace, The BoM, BoA, First Vision, etc…. you are sadly mistaken. I was born into Mormonism and I was 40 years old when I finally realized that Mormonism is not the path to Christ and Salvation. I agonized for 3 years. All one has to do is take the challenge of Brigham Young (which I did) and compare the LDS religion against the Bible. Mormonism is not Christianity and never will be. May you one day put aside your own pride, take up the Bible and ask God to reveal himself to you. Not through your own feelings, but by what God has revealed in his Word. You either believe in Him or you don’t. I Helen, believe in Him. The true and living God of the Bible. The traditional God of the Bible. I believe God became man, man does not become God, no matter how badly you want that to be true. As a woman in the LDS program, how does it make you feel that the only thing you are going to be in eternity is a baby factory for your man to populate his own earth? God has so much more in mind for me. Choose this day who you will follow Helen, as for me, I will follow the Lord.
Helen,
Focus! The Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit offspring of a man to god and his woman to goddess wife that live somewhere out/on the planet Kolob. The Mormon Jesus was conceived by an actual sexual union of the Mormon man to god heavenly father and a virgin named Mary. The Mormon Jesus atoned for sins in the Garden and not on the cross. The Mormon Jesus is much like the Jehovah Witness Jesus in that he is a created being. The JWs get a little more creative and say their Jesus is a reincarnation of Michael the Archangel.
Why is it important to draw the distinction? Well it’s because the Mormon Jesus nor the JW Jesus is the qualified Savior. These faux Jesus’ can’t redeem anyone, that’s why this point is so crucial. Without an authentic, qualified Savior, there is no salvation.
Mormons don’t draw on God’s Word for a revelation of Jesus. Mormons draw on the revelations of their false prophet Joseph Smith and his magic rock.
Go back and take a look at what your leaders have taught. They are very clear in that the Jesus of Mormonism is a different Jesus.
This is exactly why I stated that Celestial Marriage is not understood but mocked.
Kate says, “As a woman in the LDS program, how does it make you feel that the only thing you are going to be in eternity is a baby factory for your man to populate his own earth?”
Carnal knowledge is so much different then the Law of God and His Light and Knowledge, as a once upon time Mormon, shame on you for sensationalizing a principle that you now mock. I still think my hunch about you is correct. Why? because you need to sensationalize, mock, and ridicule principles that you once believed but have twisted so badly one wonders why? Yes I wonder why the need for you too enhance, misrepresent and cultivate tabloid practices in tearing down a religion. Apostasy can change the nature of a human being, it is a sight to behold.
Helen,
Falcon told you to focus, He has it wrong, your dodging the question. You can give me a list talking about problems between denomantions. Were talking about the difference between LDS and Christains. They are different gosples and different beliefs. So stop dodging and answer the questions.
Really Rick B.
How do you interpret this. Latter-day Saint Dinah Chance from Freeport, Florida wrote a letter to the editor of The Northwest Florida Daily News in which she stated:
“If Christians would put aside their petty doctrinal differences and love one another in the name of Jesus Christ, great changes would occur in our beloved country. Baptist, Evangelical, Methodist, Catholic and a host of other Christian religions are founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sadly, it seems they just can’t love one another because of too much pride in their doctrinal differences.
“How Christian is that? What does Jesus think? Did He die for this?
“My point: Mitt Romney is a Christian! Mormons are Christians! Anyone who says differently is an uneducated person.
“…Christians need to love and band together for the sake of this country.”
You and Sharon Lindbloom may disagree and say it’s between Mormons and Christians. But the above does not sound like she is comparing the two but asking why the differences between, may I quote again, “Baptist, Evangelical, Methodist, Catholic and a host of other Christian religions are founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sadly, it seems they just can’t love one another because of too much pride in their doctrinal differences.” Key word THEIR not THERE.
Helen/Louis,
I took a look at the doctrine chart different denominations to which you linked. While interesting in some ways, I don’t think whoever put that chart together really captured much of anything. Just as one person can describe a movie very differently from another person, and both be talking about the same movie – Christians can describe various doctrines using different terminology and yet have the same Savior and God’s mercy and grace in mind.
I don’t deny there are important doctinal differences over some things – primarily those that separate the Church before and after the Reformation. Since we live in a corrupt fallen world, man is always trying to add to God’s free gift of salvation and make up some good works that we must do in order to be saved. This corruption creeped into the Church, until Martin Luther read the Scriptures and discovered the great awesome truth of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Luther was delivered from a life of insecurity, fear, and misery when he discovered God’s great mercy given to us in Christ. How did he discover this? By reading Scripture – it’s all through the Bible – Romans and Galatians would be essential reading for any Mormon.
I don’t deny there are important differences – primarily over baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and God’s election – but Christians share our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – we are His and trust in the one true God for redemption. (Interestingly – your chart leaves out both baptism and the Lord’s Supper – instead seeking to find differences where there is little) I am reading a book myself that points out doctrinal differences – and what I find is there if far more agreement on doctine than there is separtion. As I said, the primary separation is between those Christians who understood and saw the need for the Reformation and those who did not. I consider Baptists, Methodists, Evangelicials, Catholics, Non-Denomantional believers to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. Do I think they have doctrinal errors? Yes – but they do have Jesus. Mormons don’t have the right god, and the Jesus they worship is not the same Jesus – and they do not properly understand the atonement. If a Mormon does believe in the true Christ they will not remain long in the LDS system – God will call them out as they seek a Church where they can hear and receive the truth of God’s Word.
Helen,
Yet again your dodging the issues. We are here as the Blog implys to talk about Mormonism and debate mormonism. We are not here to debate among ourselves as to what baptists vs non-denomanatiol churchs believe.
Also I dont read any reply’s by any chirstians here saying, Ok everyone, my name is…
and I belong to church….
And here is what I believe….
lets see if you Rick agree with what I believe or not.
Also like 5 said, all of us Christains agree, Jesus is God, Mormons dont believe that. They believe Jesus is one of Many Gods. We believe Jesus was and is God, always was, always will be.
LDS teach He was once a man who became a god. Thats just one issue of many. So stop with the dodging. Were not here to play dodge ball, were here to debate. And LDS wonder why we say you have no love, you sure dont make any attempt to show it.
Helen, Louis,
Here is an interesting comparison of Christian and Mormon belief:
http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine
And an interesting page showing just some of the differences between the two biggest religious groups that arose from Joseph Smith’s teachings (LDS and Community of Christ):
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Community_of_Christ
Looks to me that there is a lot more dividing those who follow Joseph Smith than there is dividing Christians.
Let’s look at how convoluted and nonsensical Mormonism is when it comes to their own doctrines. In order to get to the Celestial Kingdom and become a man made god, a man has to practice polygamy. Jesus wasn’t married or for that matter was the apostle Paul. The Mormon Holy Ghost was never a man and yet Mormons say he is a god. He got to skip the progression from man to god. In Mormonism the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are different entities. The Holy Spirit is a force likened to electricity in Mormonism.
As we observed in a previous thread, Mormons struggle with whether or not heavenly Mormon mother is part of the Mormon godhood. Speaking of heavenly Mormon mother, which of the Mormon god’s wives are we talking about?
So petty differences between Christianity and Mormonism? Mormonism is a grab bag of whatever suited Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or their cronies at any given moment. These dudes were so full of themselves that they supposed that whatever popped into their minds was a revelation.
I see our Mormon friend Helen wants to skirt the issue here and try to get a discussion going regarding the differences in some doctrinal positions by different Christian denominations. Most Christians I know, don’t get too hung-up on these minor issues, preferring to concentrate on Christ and Him crucified.
When someone becomes a Mormon, they are accepting the LDS church as their pathway to becoming a god. Jesus has a place in the program, but a relatively minor one since the Mormon himself must do the work necessary to become a Mormon god.
Mormonism is a spiritual trap. Christ is the only way to salvation. Knowing Him and the power of His resurrection will be the only true test on the day of judgement.
There are no petty differences between Mormonism and Christianity when it comes to the nature of God and divinity of Jesus.
The orthodox Christian view is that Jesus is fully human and full divine, having two natures in one person “without confusion, without change, without division, without separation. Phillipians 2:5-11 says “Christ Jesus…….being in very nature God, was made in human likeness….and become obedient to death….Every tongue should confess Jesus Christ is Lord.
Salvation is not a petty matter. To a Christian, the personal relationship with Jesus through faith is THEE fundamental doctrine that results in eternal life. There is no eternal life with Our Lord if a person doesn’t know Him. Supposing that Jesus is someone other than who He is, is a personal rejection of (Him).
Jesus said that a person who is not spiritually born again cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God. Someone comes to a position of rightness before God through faith in Jesus and what He did to atone for the sin of mankind.
Mormons don’t get it right from the beginning to end when it comes to the nature of God and His plan of salvation.
Petty differences is really a non-issue since apostate is apostate doctrine. It always is interesting to hear a orthodox Christian, what ever that means since orthodox could be one or many petty differences depending on what particular sect you feel attracts you the most. Any way what I began to say about what is interesting is how our doctrine is described —- Quoting Falcon:
“In order to get to the Celestial Kingdom and become a man made god, a man has to practice polygamy. Jesus wasn’t married or for that matter was the apostle Paul. The Mormon Holy Ghost was never a man and yet Mormons say he is a god. He got to skip the progression from man to god. In Mormonism the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are different entities. The Holy Spirit is a force likened to electricity in Mormonism.
As we observed in a previous thread, Mormons struggle with whether or not heavenly Mormon mother is part of the Mormon godhood. Speaking of heavenly Mormon mother, which of the Mormon god’s wives are we talking about?”
Hey, if this doesn’t sound like twilight zone I don’t know of anything that could top it. I’m packing my bags for I’m getting the heck out of here if this is what I signed up for. Wow, wonder why the Missionaries never taught this?
So I have to practice Polygamy? Why am I wasting my money on tithing, or working my way to heaven if Polygamy is required and yet the Church has banned it. Now the Holy Ghost does not fit the scenario of a God since he was never a man? and the Holy Spirit appears as electricity. The debate gets even more problematic for me, now Heavenly Mother might not be able to sit with the Gods, unless most likely she is serving food and drinks, but must excuse herself while the Men Gods light up the cigars. The last one did it for me, I’m out of here for good, Heavenly Father can’t even decide which wife should be the head cook for the night or maybe He forgot her name, having millions of wives can do that to a guy.
Helen,
I think you’re starting to get it. The religion you belong to is weird, inconsistent and full of some of the most bizarre statements by supposed leaders, one could ever find. Yes indeed, Mormonism does teach that there is a Holy Ghost and a Holy Spirit, the latter likened to a force like electricity. Look up the statement by one of Mormonism’s early leaders Parley Pratt.
The problem Helen is that you don’t think Mormonism through to its logical conclusions. If in Mormonism someone can only reach the highest level of godhood in the Celestial Kingdom by practicing polygamy, according to your boy wonder Joseph Smith and his magic rock, how could Jesus or the apostle Paul for that matter become gods since they weren’t married? And if men are to become gods, how can the Holy Ghost become a god if he never had a body or was married.
Also, I’m just repeating to you things that Mormon “prophets” have said over the years. Since Brigham Young is one of your favorites, the man is a virtual treasure trove of bizarre and inane comments.
The problem, Helen, is that the Mormonism you think you belong to is a white washed version of the original product. Typically Mormons like you go through a sequence of realization regarding Mormonism. First it is to deny that what is true about Mormonism is really true. Then it’s to alibi once the determination is made that yes indeed, this wacko stuff is really part and parcel of Mormonism. Then finally, unwilling to face reality, we’ll hear something like, “Well that happened long ago!”
Some folks, like our good friend Kate who posts here, had the courage to dig through the morass and the maze which is Mormonism and conclude that it is all a sham, a fraud and a cult that keeps the naive in spiritual oppressed in bondage.
Helen, go spend sometime working your way through the information that’s available about Mormonism; if you have the courage. In closing here is a quote from your favorite Mormon prophet dude Brigham Young:
“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)
Yea I know. He didn’t mean it. JOD is not official or some such thing. He was just speculating. It doesn’t count.
Look up the meaning of cognitive dissonance Helen!
To my Friend Falcon, Look up the word Parody, your use of that term in your descriptive meandering is well appreciated by me and many some others. I chuckle and appreciate the damage you cast upon yourself for such wonderful sensationalized material. Parroting loosely researched quotes and snippets do little for your unremarkable assumptions and criticisms.
Why not just give up on Celestial attainment for me and my family since we won’t be given the opportunity to practice Polygamy here in this day and time. After all it’s God’s law and now the law forbids me to practice it, hence according to you, a person has to be a polygamist to attain Celestial Glory. If you quoting that from BY, then go back and re-read it and quote the whole paragraph if you want to debate BY. 🙂
I find it interesting that in the D&C132, a woman must be a virgin when marrying into polygamy, or it’s adultry. How many women did Joseph Smith make adulterers? I also find this interesting:
D&C132:54,55
54And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.
Was Joseph making sure that Emma absolutely DID NOT commit polyandry with another man? How convenient to give a revelation about his own wife and then take other men’s wives. Oh and notice how she is to be destroyed if she doesn’t comply. Also notice how if she doesn’t comply, god will bless Joseph and multiply him a hundredfold in this world and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds. What a crock! Joseph Smith just pulled crap out of his hat to benefit himself.
Here’s a doctrinal difference for you:
John Taylor third prophet of the church said: “we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;…we in fact are the saviours of the world…” (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p. 163).
President Joseph Fielding Smith added that there is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, pp. 189-90).
As Christians, we know who the Savior of the world is. It is Christ that we accept, not Joseph Smith. In Mormonism it truly is Jesus OR Joseph.
Just a few quotes about the practice of polygamy:
“Some quietly listen to those who speak… against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny ‘Mormonism,’ and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned.” (Heber C. Kimball Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203)
From Orson Pratt:
“God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; and yet I have heard now and then… a brother or sister say, ‘I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy! Oh, what an absurd expression! What an absurd idea! A person might as well say, ‘I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.’ One is just as consistent as the other…. If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them, because it is utterly impossible…. to believe a part of them to be divine — from God — and a part of them to be from the devil;… The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord;…
“Now I want to prophecy a little…. I want to prophecy that all men who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent…. if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism.” (Orson Pratt Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p. 224-225)
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” (Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, page 269)
It’s no wonder that part of the LDS church split in 1890, refusing to give up polygamy. There’s so much talk and prophecy and revelation given about this “eternal practice.” Just looking at all the information and evidence, I would agree with the FLDS church, they claim that the mainstream LDS church is in apostasy. It sure looks like it.
Helen,
I’m not sensationalizing anything, I’ve simply researched Mormon doctrine and what LDS leaders have said about it. You obviously haven’t researched anything, but continue to be spoon fed garbage at your LDS meeting house. I recognize it because I was once just like you. I never did believe in man becoming god Helen, do you know why? Because I was never taught that at church. It was hidden from me. That doctrine along with many, many others , I wasn’t even aware of until I started studying and researching. More lies wouldn’ t you say? You can’t possibly understand why I left Mormonism because you don’t know the true and living Christ of the Bible. You can’t see how I would EVER give up the LDS religion because you don’t know Him. He isn’t a part of your life. He doesn’t indwell in you. How did I ever leave?? You see Helen, it’s like this, after researching and feeling such an emptiness in my life, I went out and picked up a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church and I opened it in faith, asking God to reveal himself to me. It was God who led me out Helen, and I won’t allow you or anyone else to belittle that. Please take the truths about Mormonism that everyone here is offering you, and go study it all out for yourself. Pick up a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church and open it in faith. God will reveal himself to you if you only ask. Freedom in Him is wonderful!