”Jesus never entered the temple itself. He could not enter the temple because He was not of the family tribe of Aaron, nor was he a Levite. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah.” (Chip Thompson)
A simple but amazing fact.
Added: Ralph reminds us to qualify this:
There were 3 sections to the temple – the inner most holy of holies where only the head high priest was allowed and he had to be of the Levite lineage; the next section was for the Levite priests only and it surrounded the holy of holies; the third section (called a courtyard) was for the house of Israel which Jesus would be allowed to enter as He was a Jew; and the last section (also a courtyard) was for the gentiles. So technically Jesus did enter the temple but was only allowed into the courtyard for the house of Israel – if my understanding of the layout of the temple is correct.
The force of the original point still stands, of course, but is qualified with the above. Thanks, Ralph.
Wait a minute. That can’t be right!
All Jesus would have had to do is go see the bishop and have an interview. He could have easily proven that he was tithing and living the Word of Wisdom and the Law of Chastity.
I don’t think this fun fact posted above is very faith promoting because it keeps all of the Mormonism that was lost, out of the equation. As always there are these conspiracies that prove that Mormonism is right, true and the real deal.
Also didn’t Jesus restore all of the Mormonism that was lost by the Jews and kept out of the OT by corrupt priests and the continual copying of the scriptural texts by some non-union scribes?
I think this blog needs a Mormon posting the articles so that we’d get the real, true, faith promoting story!
Jesus was also not a Mormon. So even today he wouldn’t be able to enter the temple. After all, he drank wine didn’t he?
SR,
Excellent point!
Jesus was not a Mormon, but don’t tell Mormons.
All a person has to do is compare and contrast the Mormon Jesus with the Jesus who is revealed by the Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments and it’s obvious that who Mormons worship is a false god .
The Mormon Jesus and God, are the figments of the imagination of a folk magic practicing, magic rock consulting false prophet who doesn’t even qualify as a decent heretic.
What Mormons don’t understand is that anyone can show up claiming to have visions and prophetic messages and even “scripture”. As last count there are 70 to 100 offshoots of Mormonism all claiming to have the super secret message and a restoration of something that never existed.
What happens is when Mormons stop viewing things through the magic spectacles of Mormonism and seek some actual evidence and facts, Mormonism crumbles. But here’s where the secret weapon of the false prophet emerges. It’s called “revelation”.
There are Christian groups even that enjoy the concept of the “rhema” or “word from the Lord” as the fuel that drives the excitement of their faith. It’s like spiritual instant gratification.
There’s a desire among rank-and-file Mormons to believe the Smith story. It doesn’t matter if it runs contrary to the basic doctrines of the Christian church or if there is no foundation for it in the history and traditions of the Church. In fact, it’s better if it doesn’t and in their minds is a positive feature of the false gospel they preach.
The article above demonstrates what can emerge when a person spends some time and effort in diligent study. Let’s face it, revelation is a lot easier, but in most cases the end-product comes from the mind of man and not the Spirit of God.
Don’t you guys know that Mormons have baptized Jesus through baptism for the dead?
http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/everyone-needs-lds-temple-ordinances/
They also sealed him to Mary Magdelena, so technically Jesus is a Mormon now right? In Mormon thought he could now enter the temple. His Mother Mary was also done her first husband is listed as “God the Father.” How crazy is this? Why would Jesus need to be baptized for the dead? Some people that Mormons have done work for is disgusting! Ted Bundy, Joseph Mengele (the Nazi angel of death), Hitler and on and on! Crazy stuff! Now, I know that the LDS church could say it’s been done and they didn’t know it, or it’s not “official” but the fact is it’s been done.
Aaron,
Growing up I was taught that Jesus taught in the temple as a 12 year old boy (Luke 2:39-52). Now that I really read the text, it says “in the temple courts”, would that mean the temple courtyard? As in outside the temple, in front of it?
Kate says: – April 2, 2012 at 9:48 am – (Don’t you guys know that Mormons have baptized Jesus through baptism for the dead? . . . so technically Jesus is a Mormon now right?)
Just like you and everybody else, He has the choice to accept or reject the vicarious ordnances.
So even after you get to heaven and find out that Heavenly Father has used the LDS Church as his means of communication, you will still be able to reject it.
fred
fred,
You are wrong on so many levels. What blasphemy to suggest that Jesus needs to accept the Mormon baptism for the dead. Really, do you even listen to yourself sometimes? Once again, I am challenging you to back up what you are saying with evidence. Where in the Bible or Christian writings does it say that Jesus needs man to make it to Heaven? LOL! Sorry, I don’t mean to be rude but this is just so ridiculous!
“So even after you get to heaven and find out that Heavenly Father has used the LDS Church as his means of communication, you will still be able to reject it.”
How can I get to Mormon Heaven fred? I reject it all here! I’m what the LDS call an APOSTATE! Check out what the LDS say will happen to me. Research that.
I have no doubt that I am going to Heaven. How?
John 3:15
“That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
1John 5:13
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the Name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have Eternal Life, and that ye may believe on the Name of the Son of God”
You go on ahead and believe that even Jesus needs to accept the Mormon legalistic system, I will put my faith IN Jesus and what he did for me on the Cross. How simple the Truth really is. Didn’t Jesus say: “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” He doesn’t need Mormonism fred. Neither do you.
Mormons deny logic, thats why these believe what they want.
Fred can say all he wants about Baptizing people that are dead, and this way they have another chance to get to heaven. The sad part is this, what about people that live 1000 years ago and longer. You dont know every persons name or where they lived. What about all the babies that were aborted or simply died in womb. You have none of their names. The Bibles tells us that lots of people died over the years. What about all the people who died when God flooded the earth, many people figure it was around 6 billion people. We do not have their names, so you cannot possibly baptize all these people via proxy. Do they get an automatic pass? If they do, then why not everyone else? These are questions the Mormons cannot answer so they wont even try.
Then despite this logic, they still insist what they believe is true. How really sad.
fred…The only thing I can figure out is that someone with the name “fred” is posting here just to make Mormons and Mormonism look even worse than it is.
Kate,
Thanks for posting that information on Mormons baptizing Jesus and the Virgin Mary. These folks are not only out on the limits of sanity, but they prove that Mormonism is a religion for amateurs. The cult thinking and flying around by the seat of their pants, shows they are unbelievably gullible.
I doubt that God is amused or even very forgiving when they mock him with their arrogance and pride.
Remember what I keep writing about the Mormon “system”. It’s all about the “system”. Even their god has to go through the system though I would have supposed he did all of that on another planet when he was working his way from sinful man to becoming a deity.
Kate, could you look it up and see if the temple work has been done for Satan?
Who is Chip Thompson? Was he on the MRM staff once?
This is probably the shortest April fools’ day blog you have done Aaron. And the cleverest.
You’re a day late too.
clyde,
Here’s the problem with your charge that this is an April Fools joke. First of all April Fools jokes have to be played on April 1st or they are not April Fools jokes. It’s just a law of the universe. It’s the way it works. If a prank is pulled after midnight on April 1st then the prankster is labeled as spreading misinformation and they lose credibility points. Who would risk that?
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands – Into the temple or tabernacle. The Jewish high priest alone entered into the most holy place; and the other priests into the holy place. Jesus, being of the tribe of Judah, and not of Levi, never entered the temple proper. He had access only to the courts of the temple, in the same way as any other Jew had; see the notes on Matthew 21:12. He has entered into the true temple – heaven – of which the earthly tabernacle was the type.
Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands – He is not gone into the holy of holies of the tabernacle or temple, as the Jewish high priest does once in the year with the blood of the victim, to sprinkle it before the mercy-seat there; but into heaven itself, which he has thus opened to all believers, having made the propitiatory offering by which both he and those whom he represents are entitled to enter and enjoy eternal blessedness. And hence we may consider that Christ, appearing in his crucified body before the throne, is a real offering of himself to the Divine justice in behalf of man; and that there he continues in the constant act of being offered, so that every penitent and believer, coming unto God through him, find him their ever ready and available sacrifice, officiating as the High Priest of mankind in the presence of God.
(Notes from a couple of commentaries)
Here’s one more:
It is evident that the sacrifices of Christ are infinitely better than those of the law, which could neither procure pardon for sin, nor impart power against it. Sin would still have been upon us, and have had dominion over us; but Jesus Christ, by one sacrifice, has destroyed the works of the devil, that believers may be made righteous, holy, and happy. As no wisdom, learning, virtue, wealth, or power, can keep one of the human race from death, so nothing can deliver a sinner from being condemned at the day of judgment, except the atoning sacrifice of Christ; nor will one be saved from eternal punishment who despises or neglects this great salvation. The believer knows that his Redeemer liveth, and that he shall see him. Here is the faith and patience of the church, of all sincere believers. Hence is their continual prayer as the fruit and expression of their faith, Even so come, Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.Hebrews 8:2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
Is there any doubt that Mormonism is another gospel and has nothing in common with the Gospel preached by the disciples of Jesus?
May the Holy Spirit enlighten the Mormon reader to see the folly of the false gospel of Mormonism.
This definitely wasn’t my April Fool’s joke.
I was thinking about posting something about Mitt Romney learning plausible deniability both from Reagan’s Iran-Contra affair and Mormonism’s “not official” mantra, or perhaps about the Conference teleprompters being officially announced as the new medium replacing the Urim and Thummim. But, alas.
falcon,
“I doubt that God is amused or even very forgiving when they mock him with their arrogance and pride.”
Everything about the Mormon temples mock with arrogance and pride. I wonder why Mormons are so bent out of shape when someone tells them they aren’t Christian. Mormonism is a religion all to itself. Christ doesn’t dwell in temples made by hands, so when Shawn McCraney says “Jesus isn’t in the building.” It is literally true! The part that floors me is how Jesus is lower than a LDS man who holds the Mormon priesthood. Jesus can’t save someone who is dead, but a LDS priesthood holder is able to get them what they need to be Saved if they will but accept it over there! This is so “un” Christian! In fact it is out right blasphemy. The thing I have discovered about Mormons and Christians is that in the Christian’s world, EVERYTHING centers on Christ, in the Mormon’s world, EVERYTHING centers on a multi billion dollar corporation. It’s all about the institution. That’s why Christians don’t really have a problem with which denomination you belong to. They don’t care where you tithe or give offerings or even how much you give. The LDS church has to keep that money coming in and to do so have to convince their members that it is THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Could you imagine if people like Mitt Romney decided to give his $4 million a year to another Mormon denomination? Excommunication anyone? Or at the very least he would be considered an apostate…..We all know what happens to Mormon apostates.
Hey Aaron,
The teleprompters being the new Urim and Thummim – I love that one.
From my understanding, there were 3 sections to the temple – the inner most holy of holies where only the head high priest was allowed and he had to be of the Levite lineage; the next section was for the Levite priests only and it surrounded the holy of holies; the third section (called a courtyard) was for the house of Israel which Jesus would be allowed to enter as He was a Jew; and the last section (also a courtyard) was for the gentiles. So technically Jesus did enter the temple but was only allowed into the courtyard for the house of Israel – if my understanding of the layout of the temple is correct.
Fred said, “Just like you and everybody else, He has the choice to accept or reject the vicarious ordnances.
So even after you get to heaven and find out that Heavenly Father has used the LDS Church as his means of communication, you will still be able to reject it.”
Please tell me you where making a joke when you wrote this. That’s how I’m going to take it for now, at any rate.
Gee Falcon you are legalistic. Romans8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. If I am a joint-heir with Christ that must mean that I am—–No that can’t be right. The NIV says Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. that says the same thing. Esv and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
There is something to this that makes me equal to Christ if????? Gee, Who is Chip Thompson?
clyde,
Very interesting. You believe you are equal to Christ.
You’re going to have to explain to me a little more exactly what you think it means to be a “joint heir” or “co-heir”. I can tell you what it means as regards to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have a pretty good idea what it means in the context of the false gospel of Mormonism.
First of all, as you know, Mormonism has a different god (in fact millions and billions of them), a different Jesus (the spirit offspring of a father god and one of his many wives who live on or near the planet Kolob), and a different plan of salvation (not being merely with God but being “a god”). Now in that context, of course, the Bible will be made to say something that in reality, it doesn’t.
In Mormonism, Jesus and the Mormon, are literally spirit brothers based on the false notion that there are male and female gods that procreate on the planet Kolob.
So my point is, if you start out with a false premise, everything that supports that premise with will be wrong. This isn’t just a matter of interpretation. It’s a matter of fact.
The burden of proof is on Mormonism that this is what Jesus taught as did his apostles who learned from him and taught others. The flaw of Mormon “revelation” is that anyone can say anything they want. In the Mormon system all that is necessary is to get a good feeling about what someone says is a revelation and that’s all the confirmation of the truth necessary.
Sorry, I don’t live in that world. The falseness of the Mormon revelation is so obvious.
So was the Mormon idea of the multiplicity of gods and men becoming gods revealed/found in the the Bible? No! So where did it come from? It came from the same place that all of Joseph Smith’s, and his subsequent “prophets”, got their ideas; from their own imaginations, the ideas of other religious entrepreneurs, or from Satan himself.
Satan wouldn’t like anything better than to have men mock God by claiming that there are many gods and that they also can become gods. He would love to see God’s Word denigrated and to be called corrupt, while other fantasy scriptures are introduced.
Satan would love to see Jesus reduced to a mere created being rather than God incarnate. Satan planted some ideas in the minds of Mormon prophets that are not just distasteful, but blasphemous. Hence we have that all-star false prophet Brigham Young claiming that Adam was really god and that God the Father had actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary. I’m wondering if Mormons get a burning in the bosom concerning such things.
Mormons mock their own god to the point that they even posthumously baptize Jesus and their very own heavenly father.
Mormonism is a train wreck of bizarre notions, beliefs and practices. But it can all be covered because some men claim to be prophets who are receiving revelations.
The standards for “revelation” is pretty low in Mormonism to the point that (revelations) can be discarded, ignored or labeled opinion or folklore.
Ralph, your qualification is noted and accepted. Thanks.
Blessings to you, friends.
Actually it’s not real difficult to find out who Chip Thompson is. All that is necessary is to “google” his name and see what pops-up. That’s what I did and this is what I came up with. My guess is that this is the Chip Thompson that Aaron references in the above article.
clyde,
Perhaps you’d like to make a donation to Chip Thompson’s ministry. Looks like he has a real heart for the Mormon people and serving them.
http://web.me.com/igniteut4christ/Trigrace/Home.html
Kate says: – April 2, 2012 at 11:32 am – (fred, You are wrong on so many levels. What blasphemy to suggest that Jesus needs to accept the Mormon baptism for the dead)
You should remember from your complete knowledge of God’s Church, before you chose to turn your back on it, we are told to baptize everyone and not judge if they need it, or if they want it.
(I have no doubt that I am going to Heaven); (I reject it all here! I’m what the LDS call an APOSTATE!)
We all get to Heaven; it is just that you are now deciding what you will do when you get there. As we were reminded in this last conference, we have until the end of the part of our life that is here on earth to grow and progress, so you can still rejoin Heavenly Father’s Church.
fred
Rick B says: – April 2, 2012 at 11:58 am –( Mormons deny logic, thats why these believe what they want.
Fred can say all he wants about Baptizing people that are dead, and this way they have another chance to get to heaven. The sad part is this, what about people that live 1000 years ago and longer.)
(We do not have their names, so you cannot possibly baptize all these people via proxy)
Thank you for reminding us all of your very poor knowledge of LDS teachings and beliefs. I bet even Kate can tell you that we will have the use of the ‘Book of Life” during the last 1000 years to get all the ones we cannot find on our own.
The Revelation
of St John the Divine
Chapter 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rev/20.12?lang=eng#11
fred
Seriously Fred???????????? If the mormon chruch baptised Jesus for the dead for real….. well not only is that blasphemy but just plain spooky!
Aaron, I missed your April Fools post this year.
There is some equality implied in Romans 8:17. If I am a joint-heir with someone I must be equal to them. I can receive from God the same thing he is getting. I know one thing and that is I can’t do enough to be called equal.
Falcon
You said In Mormonism, Jesus and the Mormon, are literally spirit brothers based on the false notion that there are male and female gods that procreate on the planet Kolob. You are wrong In Mormonism, Jesus and everybody are spirit brothers based on the fact of premortal existence
Gee Aaron this is the best April Fools day blog ever.
fred,
“You should remember from your complete knowledge of God’s Church, before you chose to turn your back on it”
Seriously? I have a more complete knowledge of the LDS institution now than I ever did as a Mormon. All of this weirdness was NEVER talked about or taught at church or at home. I would dare say my own Mother doesn’t know the half of it. Lies. Lies by omission, and out right lies to my face.
“We all get to Heaven; it is just that you are now deciding what you will do when you get there.
You don’t know Mormon scripture fred. Not at all.
D&C 76: 31-39
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
cont….
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
Please research…
Clyde,
Please provide evidence that the pre mortal existence is fact. Thanks.
Clyde,
I find what you wrote quite interesting.
“You said In Mormonism, Jesus and the Mormon, are literally spirit brothers based on the false notion that there are male and female gods that procreate on the planet Kolob. You are wrong In Mormonism, Jesus and everybody are spirit brothers based on the fact of premortal existence”
Well thank you for clearing that up. Mormonism, according to clyde, does not have a heavenly mother, that the Mormon god is not a polygamist and he doesn’t live on or near the planet Kolob. So therefore these spirit beings that are offspring of the Mormon god just sort of materialize, right? And this premortal existence, where does that notion come from? My guess is that it comes from one of those false prophets who was just giving his opinion and it’s now folklore and can be cast aside.
Try this:
“According to the traditional, literal LDS interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Kolob is an actual star or planet in this universe that is, or is near, the physical throne of God. According to Joseph Smith, Jr., this star was discovered by Methuselah and Abraham by looking through the Urim and Thummim.”
Yea that Joseph Smith was a real winner. It figures that Kolob appears in the BoA which has been proven to be a figment of Smith’s imagination like all of Mormonism.
And clyde try this:
From MRM:
Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie wrote,
“This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that ‘man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,’ that man is the ‘offspring of celestial parentage,’ and that ‘all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.’ (Man: His Origin and Destiny, pp.348-355.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 516)
So clyde this is a strange form of Mormonism you are practicing. I wonder if it could get you ex-ed out of the program. But on the other hand, my guess is that you find actual evidence regarding Kolob and a heavenly father and mother procreating spirit children a little over the top. So just deny it. The problem you have, however, that this stuff is really easy to look up.
Your Mormon god does live on or near the planet Kolob and he does have at least one woman he procreates spirit children with. Now since Joseph Smith said that the only way to get to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom was through the practice of polygamy, my guess that the Mormon god has got a whole bunch of wives with which he can procreate spirit offspring on or near the planet Kolob.
So this Mormonism is a real funny religion, any way you consider it.
Adam-god doesn’t count. Blood atonement doesn’t count. No one can seem to get a handle on where the ban on blacks in the priesthood came from or whether or not they have black skin as a result of not being valiant in something called the pre-existence; which incidentally could probably end-up as being folklore or someone’s opinion. Stay tuned on that one. We had a prophet of the LDS church declare on national TV that he didn’t know if men progressing to gods was ever or is ever taught in the Mormon church. That seems like rather a big deal to me.
And now we have clyde telling us that he and the Mormon Jesus are spirit brothers, not based on the fact that they are spirit offspring of a father-mother god living on or near the planet Kolob, but as the result of the pre-existence. I don’t know, were clyde and the Mormon Jesus, who ended up on this earth separated by 2,000 years in the pre-existence at the same time?
I suppose clyde can make it anything he wants since Mormonism seems to be largely based on what someone wants to think and believe.
Fred said
Fred, You are the one with no clue or understanding of Scripture.
First off, their is no possible way even in the 1000 years you have, can you possibly baptize via proxy 6 billion people. Then is you hold a young earth creation view, then we have roughly 5-6 thousand years from the time of Noah till now. So that means their are billions of people that reject Jesus and died in that time. so that means you have 1000 years to baptize maybe 20 billion people.
Then since you want to quote Revelation and mention the Book of life, I must say I notice you dont quote the entire thing. Why did you forget or purposely leave out verse 14 and 15?
Notice that verse 15 says, if your name is not in the Book of life, you are cast into the lake of Fire. Why did you leave that out? Why did you not tell us why you can be cast into the lake of fire and be baptized out of it? Funny why you did that.
Fred, 20 billion is in my opinion a conservative estimate.
Over all that would mean you would be baptizing 54,795 a day or better yet 2283 per hour, so thats 38 people per minute. good luck.
fproy = “We all get to Heaven; it is just that you are now deciding what you will do when you get there.”
BUT…
Book of Mormon
2 Nephi 28:22-23
And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none– and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, afrom whence there is no deliverance.
Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
Doctrine and Covenants
DnC 76: 36-38
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
The Holy Bible (KJV)
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(thanks to Kate and Rick B)
I wanted the verses to be soaked in by themselves. So here’s the commentary.
There’s no way out of this if you believe in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. In fact, from a Mormon perspective at least, this shows some respectability for the Holy Bible (even as translated).
Or has the Book of Mormon and the DnC been corrupted?
Are they only true insofar as they have been edited and republished correctly?
The next issue is:
Where did fproy and other LDS get this idea of hell being cleaned out after the millenial riegn of Christ?
Because if it is “official”, then it contradicts “official” scripture. And I don’t think even saying “prophets over scripture” will help such great contradiction, especially for something that is the plan of God, not just an understanding or a current practice.
Someone is going astray here. Even by Mormon standards this is very far astray, even unto going with the Devil according to the BoM.
One last thought (don’t let all of them distract you, consider all points made, please), EVEN IF this belief of fproy’s and so many other LDS is “not official” is it not just as bad for “the Prophet of God” to ALLOW the LDS people to BE LED ASTRAY by another?
spartacus,
“One last thought (don’t let all of them distract you, consider all points made, please), EVEN IF this belief of fproy’s and so many other LDS is “not official” is it not just as bad for “the Prophet of God” to ALLOW the LDS people to BE LED ASTRAY by another?”
It really doesn’t matter because of the progressive nature of Mormonism. It can be whatever it wants to be at any given time. Progressive means “make it up as you go along” and “try to disguise or dismiss the stuff that’s really stupid”, which in fact is most of Mormonism.
If Joseph Smith and those who followed him, got an idea that kind of struck their fancy, they just went with it. The Mormon religion is a religious playground for amateurs who find in it a process that flips their creative switch.
I’ve noticed that even individual Mormons can get into the act and spin out their own particular brand of Mormonism with their creative interpretations of anything from the Bible, the BoM, the BoA and any of the goof ball utterances and proclamations by their prophets and other leaders.
Mormons find Mormonism fun because it provides all sorts of opportunity to spin and nuance. They have no problem with ambiguity or suspending credulity. It’s just pedal to the metal, wheeling popping, day at the religious amusement park for Mormons.
Falcon said
“Well thank you for clearing that up. Mormonism, according to clyde, does not have a heavenly mother, that the Mormon god is not a polygamist and he doesn’t live on or near the planet Kolob. So therefore these spirit beings that are offspring of the Mormon god just sort of materialize, right?”
Funny, this actually describes my understanding fairly well. Except for the whole spirit offspring materialized part, since I believe God formed us.
TJay,
You beauty. Please stick around.
I don’t know if you read my post right above yours but I think you are the Mormon I had in mind; and I don’t mean this as an insult to you, just an observation of what I observe in Mormonism.
All the stuff about heavenly mother, heavenly father, polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, spirit offspring being procreated by the male and female deities can all be dismissed, right?
It reminds me of that quote I read from a BYU professor when he said, “In Mormonism you can believe whatever you want. You just can’t teach it.”
So I guess these prophets that speak for the Mormon god are about the only ones who can teach whatever they want. The rank and file can believe whatever they want, they just have to be very careful about articulating it out loud. They can sort of whisper their own take on things out of the corner of their mouth.
So it brings into question the veracity of the claim that the Mormon prophet is a direct conduit from the Mormon god relying messages to the people. The problem is that either these prophets are terribly flawed or the Mormon god is having a real problem settling on what’s what.
Again, to Mormons the important thing is not to leave the church. Even if you don’t believe a thing that is taught. Even if you’re an atheist, DON’T LEAVE THE CHURCH!
It’s all about the system, the institution, the program. Rejecting it, even if you know it’s all bogus, (leaving) is just not acceptable. Be a social Mormon. Just don’t take your name off of the membership rolls.
Because in Mormonism, the membership rolls are like the equivalent of the Lamb’s Book of Life. Ah, the power of the religious machine!
TJayT,
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that you do not believe in a heavenly mother, your god is not a polygamist, He does not live on or near the planet Kolob and you are not a literal son of his. If this is correct then I have to say you are not a Mormon. This is Mormon doctrine. I’m amazed at Mormons who have posted on this blog over the year or so that I have been here. Never in my life have I seen so many different takes on the LDS religion. Who follows the leaders and doctrine? Why follow them at all if you can just make up, throw out, and believe whatever you want?
For the record, I WAS taught that all of the above is true. All of it. In lessons at church, at home, family reunions, even at a temple class that we took. The bishop attended with us and he went into great detail about this. I don’t remember if it was part of the lesson or just him teaching it to us. This is a major part of Mormonism and all Mormons I know believe and teach this. There’s even a LDS hymn about Kolob!
Kate,
I’m certainly thankful that you are here to give us your experience within the Mormon machine.
I would call TJay a “tweener”. What I mean is that he’s between Mormonism and something that he’s sort of developed on his own. I would like him to declare himself a prophet and start his own sect of Mormonism; which has been done at least 100 times or so.
That’s the problem with Mormonism. There are people like TJay who like some of Mormonism, but they can’t swallow the whole story. So what they do is make accommodations with it so that they can stay in but maintain some form of integrity.
clyde on the other hand is an entirely different case. He’s more in the mainstream but he’s bounced heavenly mother and Kolob and is searching for some type of comfort zone because it’s just too hard to surrender to reality.
Now fred is just plain confused. He’s even up for baptizing Jesus and heavenly father and he can’t see the absurdity of such a thing. He claims to have been in a Christian church and yet he doesn’t understand a thing about Christianity. I think he just a troll who shows up here to stir the pot. He may be smoking pot for all we know.
Anyway, don’t go away Kate. Your contribution is very important.
Falcon, your assessment of the teaching track record of Mormon leaders as men
whose spiritual guidance on many important issues seems to be that of, ” making it
up as they go along ” . That sums it up close enough .
Kate: your contribution here is priceless . That phrase you use [ ” where’s Jesus in all
this? ” ] reverberates thru this blog for all Mormons to hear .
I agree with you both concerning TjayT being different . Falcon you said that you view
him as a “tweener” . That’s close to how I view him,I think he’s between Mormonism and
and being fully free . I say this because I believe there are sincere people who
have found something in Mormonism that meets a need in their life. It might be the
emotional attachment to friends and activities , or perhaps it’s an economical one . I
feel that these people have experienced God’s mercy in their lives, perhaps their
child was healed , or a personal problem lifted , God’s love has touched many who may
not be complete worshipers of Him . These people have been detoured by prophets who
offered a close imitation of a complete relationship with God because of their manip-
ulation of Biblical terms etc. Tjay T certainly may not be Mormon enough in the
eyes of Mormon prophets and some of their authoritative doctrines, but he’s close to
stepping over that line of what Mormonism offers as a relationship with God , and what
the Bible offers as a true complete relationship with God. May we all pray constantly
for him . He’s worth it !
Call me a confused Christian. These LDS folk are thinking the SAVIOR needs to have proxy baptism done for Him? If this was even true in the slightest then He died in vain. There would be no redeeming blood spilled.
God demanded a perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind and newsflash, the gospel said it’s Jesus. I prefer someone who doesn’t believe in the Christ at all over someone who views Him as a weak and pathetic individual.
For shame!
Whoa there everybody. Maybe I have misrepresented my beliefs here, and if so I apologies for any confusion. I’m really not that far down from the TBM tree. I believe in the five points of the Mormon testimony. I believe in all the thirteen articles of faith. I believe that God has a body, and that Christ is created by and subordinate to the father. I believe in Creatio Ex Materia, that we are made from the same essence as God, and so we’ll be able to become gods ourselves one day. I believe that we where created by God spiritually before coming to this life. The list of things that I believe and agree with goes on and on. The only things that I can think of off the top of my head that I may differ from TBM’s is my rejection of infinite regression (it just doesn’t seem justifiable scripturally to me) and as an extension I’m agnostic about the idea of a Heavenly Mother (if she exists or doesn’t has absolutely no bearing on my salvation in Lds theology). I see Heavenly Father as my literal spirit father, but in the same way that Geppetto was Pinocchio’s father (God created me, and one day I’ll be a “real boy”).
None of these things would prevent me from receiving a baptism if I wasn’t already a member. They don’t know keep me from receiving The Sacrament (Communion), performing callings in the Church, participating in the Lds Priesthood, or keep me from receiving or holding a temple recommend.
But I’m curious now. If any Mormons reading or participating on here think that I’m not Mormon, or am half a step away from founding my own religion please feel free to speak up and share why you feel that way.
An aside to MikeR. You said, “May we all pray constantly for him . He’s worth it !”
While I’m sure you would say that about any one you feel is not walking on the Gods path I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you 🙂
1- As my wife astutely pointed out, if Jesus COULD even “accept” a proxy baptism, how did/does that baptism work SINCE IT’S DONE IN THE NAME OF JESUS?
2-In previous conversations with TJayT I do remember thinking that TJayT was not a “real” mormon (i.e. – TBM). I think I even said so, but I can’t remember his reply. I’m going to try to find that conversation and if I do I will post again.
As for what you have said here, TJayT, it seems to be a pretty obvious or necessary version of LDS once you make Heavenly Father the Ultimate again. Once you say that Heavenly Father really is the Ultimate then you say everything you just said – including a Heavenly Mother could not be. It also necessitates that Heavenly Father only acted out a human life, was not actually human who later developed into a God or the God. Or you could just say he was never a man and never lived a human life. Also, the priesthood and the LDS gospel would then be creations of the Father, no longer the things that made him what he is – a god. You just have the Ultimate making humans “in his image” including the ability to become a godling – for anything less that than the Infinite Ultimate is infinitely above a limited god. The pre-existence of humans fits in ok, just now we’re the creations of the Creator again instead of his offspring.
I have heard other LDS describe this kind of Heavenly Father is the Ultimate and Beginning theology, even an LDS missionary – which is convenient for dealing with some of the more obvious controversies and “shrinking” of God that comes about from traditional LDS teachings.
However,
There is still a problem for LDS who go this way. TJayT, I would obviously like to hear your thoughts on this issue.
If you deny all these “traditional teachings” by making Heavenly Father the Alpha/Omega Ultimate, then what happens to all those teachings that were believed by the LDS membership of the past? Were they led astray? We can talk about “official” vs. “not official” all we want – and we do – but this is just an argument about paperwork.
The real issue of “official” vs. “not official” and for massive adjustments to theology (like TJayT’s Ultimate Heavenly Father) is the PRACTICAL REAL LIFE of the religion. LDS people have believed these things that TJayT jettisons for over a century. They believe it because they were taught it by people in authority. They were taught it in such a way that when the masses believed it as doctrine, the teacher or prophet didn’t correct them and say “that was just my opinion, you shouldn’t believe that”.
If you think the truth is something different than these believed-teachings, then it seems like you have to believe that these people were led astray. You could say “it wasn’t official” until you are blue in the face, but people believed it, for generations, as doctrine. Either you are astray or they were.
TJay,
Perhaps you missed my quotes regarding the heavenly mother and the procreation of spirit beings by her and the Mormon heavenly father out on or near the planet Kolob.
I really don’t know how you can ignore all of that and just go on your merry way embracing what you give an enthusiastic testimony of.
You toss out the Mormon heavenly mother and the idea that the Mormon heavenly father is a polygamist and you’re letting a key element of the Mormon narrative go.
I can understand why you would want to that.
It’s part of that free wheeling day at the religious amusement park that is a main feature of Mormonism. Once you go down the road of jettisoning main bed rock principles of the Mormon religion, the entire program unravels.
Now you have to get rid of forever families, the Mormon man resurrecting his wife from the dead, and the two of them (or more depending on if he’s a polygamist or not) getting their own planetary system where they too procreate spirit children to populate their planets.
There are significant implications here and that’s why Mormonism unravels when you pull on any of its loose strings.
It’s somewhat amazing to me that TJay can give his unqualified endorsement of all these various aspects of the Mormon belief system and then bail out on the Mormon heavenly mother.
If someone is going to swallow the BoM (and I would guess the BoA), Smith as a prophet the LDS church as the one true blue real deal religious institution and the Mormon prophets past and present as legitimate speakers from the mouth of the Mormon god, what’s the big deal with heavenly mother?
The heavenly mother deity is no more or less believable than the rest of the Mormon narrative.
Just suck it up and go with it!
TjayT, I appreciate your being open about what you don’t believe concerning
some very foundational doctrines of Mormonism. I still feel that you are close
to stepping from what Mormonism offers as a relationship with God over to
something grander — a relationship based on worshiping the One True God and
experiencing a complete relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. Whether
you agree or not that’s my opinion based on what you’ve shared with us . I’m
thinking positive here, I know God has something more for you than what the
prophets of Mormonism have steered you to .