”Jesus never entered the temple itself. He could not enter the temple because He was not of the family tribe of Aaron, nor was he a Levite. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah.” (Chip Thompson)
A simple but amazing fact.
Added: Ralph reminds us to qualify this:
There were 3 sections to the temple – the inner most holy of holies where only the head high priest was allowed and he had to be of the Levite lineage; the next section was for the Levite priests only and it surrounded the holy of holies; the third section (called a courtyard) was for the house of Israel which Jesus would be allowed to enter as He was a Jew; and the last section (also a courtyard) was for the gentiles. So technically Jesus did enter the temple but was only allowed into the courtyard for the house of Israel – if my understanding of the layout of the temple is correct.
The force of the original point still stands, of course, but is qualified with the above. Thanks, Ralph.
Heavenly mother is part of Mormonism. I have been told over and over that the only reason she isn’t talked about or worshiped is because she is so sacred that heavenly father wants to protect her. It’s really odd for me to see that a Mormon doesn’t believe in her. What is interesting about myself is that I thought of only ONE heavenly mother. Mormon teachings about polygamy and how men have to have so many wives just to even make it to the celestial kingdom, shows that there are many heavenly mothers. How would I ever know which one was mine? What if TJayT has a different heavenly mother than me? Wouldn’t that make us half siblings instead of whole siblings? Wouldn’t Jesus only be our half brother if he was born from a different heavenly mother then me or TJayT? This is the problem I see with Mormons, they don’t follow the next logical step. I was this same way. I just sucked up what I was told and didn’t think about it because the thinking had already been done. Another thing is that some Mormon women I know that have not been to the temple, truly believe that after they die, someone will do their temple work for them and then god will give them to a worthy man in the celestial kingdom and they will be able to be part of the whole planet thing. My friend’s dad said that all women are in Mormon heaven are brood mares, eternally pregnant so a Mormon man/god can populate his world. This man is an exMormon. He knows about the heavenly mothers. Mormons can’t just pick and choose what to believe. It’s all true, or it isn’t!
TJay,
I don’t know if you’re married or not, but I think it would be only fair that the present or future Mrs. TJay know that she’s not going to be a mother god. This goddess business is very important to Mormon girls.
So what’s going to be the status of Mrs. TJay in the Celestial Kingdom? If you’re going to be doing all of the spirit procreation yourself, what do you need the babe for; crusing the main drag of the Celestial Kingdom on Friday night? What is she, Celestial Kingdom arm candy?
She doesn’t even exist in your belief system. So why even go to the temple and get sealed to her and the kids also for that matter?
TJay I will say this for you. You are right in line with the main feature of Mormonism; creativity.
Kate, Falcon, I think it’s interesting how there are Mormons who testify that they
don’t believe some very important doctrines that their leaders have revealed to be
spiritual truth. As we’ve seen on this blog there are Mormons who believe Heavenly
Father did actually come down from heaven and have sex with Mary to produce
Jesus’ body; there are Mormons who believe that Heavenly Father probably sinned
when He was climbing up the ladder of life towards becoming Almighty God ; there
are Mormons who have felt that the secret ritual of swearing a death penalty on
themselves for divulging Temple secrets was a terrible experience .They submit to their
prophets on one hand and then pick and choose from what these men have claimed
is truth , on the other hand. I think that this type of Mormon is becoming less rare.
Mormonism has struggled since it’s attempt to try and be accepted into the mainstream
Christian community , and this means down-playing or denying some of it’s more
“unique” doctrines as revealed by it’s past leaders , this behavior is seen in how the
issue concerning denying the priesthood to Negroes is handled today etc. I personally
think that for some Mormons it’s living a moral lifestyle that is all that’s important to
them. There’s so much good things to do in the way of church activities that they feel
this is what really all that counts . Those are my thoughts.
Mike,
I think you are correct. A lot of Mormons believe that living a good life and keeping the commandments is really all you have to do. There are still a lot of rank and file Mormons who don’t know some of these doctrines. For example, those who haven’t been to the temple. There are doctrines taught inside the temple that these Mormons will never hear of or learn about. I often wonder if members of my own family knew what goes on inside, could they in good faith still be Mormon. I don’t think so. If you take the 5 million who are actively attending church, only about 25% of those have been through the temple, and they are so afraid to say ANYTHING that goes on. I live in a small Mormon community and learning from the Mormons who have posted on this board, I have lived in a bubble (along with thousands of others). I am floored more often than not at some of the comments Mormons here post. I don’t even recognize their beliefs as LDS.
Spartacus
Was this the comment you where thinking of? “I can see where you are coming from with your answers about worship, considering your take on the nature of God the Father. It sounds a lot like what I thought of as a teen, as I noted earlier. I just don’t think it aligns well with the consistant teachings of the LDS leadership. Which is ok. From what you have said here it sounds like you are not looking to be the best LDS member you can be but the best truth believer/liver you can. I respect that. It’s been great talking to you about these questions. See you in other subject threads.”
If so this was my reply, “Spartacus, I hope that’s a compliment because I’m going to take it as one. I enjoyed the discussion also. Sorry I couldn’t be more traditional for you.”
From a Lds theological standpoint whether these people have been lead astray or not all depends on if there Exaltation has been placed in jeopardy because of these beliefs. My understanding is that the only things you absolutely need to believe in order to live with the Father forevermore are the five points of a Mormon testimony, the AoF, and have faith that the Temple rites have some sort of divine transformative effect. So long as a Mormon believed these things then there exaltation is assured, and so they haven’t been lead astray, even if they have some theological ideas wrong.
(cont)
(cont)
To your last comment, that I may be leading myself astray, obviously I don’t believe that I am. Still I reserve the right to be 100% wrong about anything I believe. After all I’m a semi-coherent twenty-something that’s just starting my spiritual journey. I really don’t know anything. I’m sure many of my beliefs will change before I meet my maker, and then they’ll change again after that. Until that time I’ll put my faith in the Spirit of God and trust it’s guiding me down the correct path.
Kate
I have never actually said I reject the idea of a Heavenly Mother, only that I’m open to the idea that she may not exist, or at least not how Mormons think of her.
I have no doubt that your friends dad is a sincere and honest man (just as I know you’re sincere and honest). But at the same time would you suggest that if I left Mormonism the best place I could learn about your religion and beliefs would be on Ex-Christian.net? I imagine you wouldn’t recognize your beliefs in how they describe Christianity. While people who are former members need to be listens to and not ignored, we have to remember that many of them are just as bias about there former religion as the current believers are.
Falcon
I don’t normally get offended by your considering and disrespectful tone when speaking about me or my beliefs. I understand where it comes from, it sounds amazingly like my own beliefs about Christianity when I was an Anti-Christian. I also know that I am a guest on this blog. I come in knowing I’ll be in the minority and most people will think I’m a mix of crazy and ignorant to believe what I do. No one is forcing me to be here.
That said I found your comments about my wife particularly offensive. I’m sure your intention want to insult her, that I’m taking it harder then I should and that I’m just being a crybaby (I say none of that sarcastically). Still you’ll have to forgive my ignoring your comments for now because I don’t want my emotions to get the better of me and to say something I would regret later.
God Bless.
TJay,
I find it interesting that you take my comments personally and get all offended when my remarks where made in a generic fashion saying I didn’t know if you were married or not.
If you took offense I would guess it’s because I spoke the truth regarding the raw deal I think any Mormon wife would be getting with a Mormon husband who didn’t believe in something as fundamental to the Mormon faith as a heavenly mother.
Mormon wives have the expectation of being with their Mormon husbands for eternity, ruling their own planetary system, and procreating spirit children. That’s the whole point of the Mormon program. Men will become gods. Wives will become goddesses.
I would say you are committing fraud if you have gone through the Mormon temple sealing ritual with your wife and don’t believe she’s going to become a heavenly mother. Don’t get angry and all offended because I point out the obvious to you.
TJay,
You may enjoy playing around the edges of Mormonism and having your own unique take on the system, but this is serious business. It has eternal consequences. If it took me to offend you in order to give you a jolt, then I’d say it was well worth it.
I think I’m showing some concern for your wife and her plight. It’s really not fair to her, this game your playing.
TJayT,
I would hope that if you left Mormonism, you would look to the God’s Holy Word the Bible to find the truth. That’s exactly what I did. Mormonism cannot be found there. I also have to say that sites like MRM and MC are brutally honest about Mormonism and it’s teachings and doctrines. A lot more truthful than LDS.org by far. In fact I could turn that around on you and ask you if I should have gotten my information at LDS.org before I left? Are they open and honest, disclosing the truth about Mormonism and their past? Not hardly. I would say that if someone wants to know the truth about Mormonism, absolutely do not ask a Mormon. Research their history, doctrines, teachings of their prophets. The LDS church seems to discourage members from doing this. Where’s the honesty? I think exchristian.net would have a whole different set of issues. When a Christian becomes an Athiest, they don’t believe in the Bible, doctrines or teachings of Christianity, but it’s all there for them to research, Christians don’t try to hide, obfuscate, mislead, lie either by omission or outright. Christians contend for the faith and do not deny Christianity when it suits them.
“I have never actually said I reject the idea of a Heavenly Mother, only that I’m open to the idea that she may not exist, or at least not how Mormons think of her.”
If you ditch this part of Mormon doctrine, (how Mormons think of her) the rest of the preexistence falls apart. There’s no way not to believe in a heavenly mother. There’s also no wiggle room for how we become gods and procreate our own spirit children. Past leaders have taught this doctrine. It’s believed.
It is my understanding that when Mormons go through the various temple rituals they swear oaths, they make promises, there are covenants involved and some of the rituals have penalties associated with them. There are secret names and secret handshakes associated with various rituals.
To my way of thinking, this is serious stuff and not to be messed around with. I’m saying that because it’s my feeling that the whole system has, as its foundation, a strong scent of the occult. That’s why there are occult symbols on temples and why the underwear Mormons wear also contains such symbols.
As Kate has pointed out, there is a relatively small number of Mormons who actually get involved in the temple program, choosing instead to merely take advantage of the programs offered by the various wards.
A marriage, especially in the temple, has certain covenants and promises associated with it. If one of the marriage partners believes it and the other doesn’t, isn’t that a little problematic? Marriage is a legal contract. There’s an expectation of honesty and forth-rightness associated with the pledges given. If someone swears to something and they have their fingers crossed, so to speak, it’s fraud. It would be grounds for an annulment, in my opinion.
There’s a reason why marriage partners should have religious beliefs in common.
Falcon,
Like I said before, I was sure the offense was all in my head and that you meant no disrespect but I wanted you to know why I wasn’t responding to your comment right away. I let my wife read this comment to get her take on it and this was her reaction:
Falcon, I do appreciate your concern for my well being and feelings. Usually I just hear a lot of “I’ll pray for her soul”. Know that I say this with 100% certainty, not only does my husbands beliefs and convicitons not worry me but I have never found any sort of religious matter that we have disagreed on. I am not worried about my “goddess status” as you put it, nor have I ever met one single mormon woman who even considers this when getting married. When we marry in the temple for time and all eternity it is for love, we love our husband so much that we want to stand through the trials of this life and beyond with him come what may. I can honestly say I don’t care at all if I become a goddess or even what my role is in the after life as long as TJay is by my side. Thank you for your concern.
Mrs. TJay,
Thank you very much for your response but it raises more questions for me, frankly, then it answers.
It doesn’t sound like you folks are really into what the “restored” gospel is all about. I know, for example, what the fundamental beliefs of the Christian Faith are and I’m pedal to the medal in supporting them. It’s what my life is focused on. The most fundamental of these is that the Lord Jesus Christ died for me, provided me with salvation through his shed blood and that my life is focused on praising and bringing honor to Him.
Now Mormonism is focused on a system whereby husbands and wives are sealed to each other in the temple and they are working towards the goal of achieving deity status. Becoming a god/goddess is the result of the “works” that are done with the ancillary payoff of having a kingdom/planet to rule and populate with the design feature of repeating the process with other procreated spirit children; just like the millions and billions of gods have done over eternity.
Now if Mr. & Mrs. TJay are on a wavelength other than that which is laid out by the Mormon church, I’m wondering what’s the point?
I think it’s sweet that you want to be together after you die, but the only way that’s going to happen is if you work the program. Mr. TJay says he’s not so sure there’s a heavenly mother even though that’s what Mormonism clearly teaches and what, according to the restored gospel, Mr. TJay should be working for.
I have a better way for you. Your goal should be to spend eternity with the Lord Jesus Christ. He did the work for you on the cross. Eternal life is accessed through faith in Him.
Falcon,
This is Mrs. TJay one last time, my previous response was intended to thank you for your concern and tell you how I feel about it, not raise more questions and pull away from the discussion you were having with my husband. With that being said I will make this statement:
I have never claimed to understand everything. I am still learning about gospel teachings but I have always felt from my very soul that the the mormon church is true. I can not speak for my religion as a whole, just my personal beliefs. I am going to live my life how I believe would be pleasing to god and have faith that he will do whats best for my family and I in the afterlife. If that means becoming a goddess then so be it, if not, so be it. All I’m going to do is live my life to please my god and myself, which is a united cause because living to please my god it also pleases myself.
You stated “The Lord Jesus Christ died for me, provided me with salvation through his shed blood and that my life is focused on praising and bringing honor to Him.” I agree. I also believe a big part of that is family.
As I stated earlier, Thank you for your concern. I will not be responding to any more posts as TJay’s feelings mirror my own you can disscuss things with him.
Tjayt and wife,
Just so you are aware, Jesus said we will neither be given in marriage nor be married in Heaven.
Also if we are correct and your prophets are false and telling lies, then you will not enter heaven and not only be separated From Jesus for all of eternity, but you will be separated from each other also.
Mr. & Mrs. TJay.
Now here’s the problem as I see it. Mrs. TJay wrote:
“………I have always felt from my very soul that the the mormon church is true.”
Not to discount your feelings, however that’s the problem with Mormonism; the test for truth is how someone feels. I know this will sound insulting but quite frankly how someone feels about something, no matter how deeply it’s felt, has nothing to do with truth. It has to do with how something makes us feel.
Our former Mormon poster Kate (I don’t think she’ll mind me commenting here), feels in the depth of her soul, that she was mislead by Mormonism, was lied to, had the religion misrepresented to her and it made her angry when she figured it all out. Now that’s a whole different set of feelings than you are experiencing, none-the-less if feelings are a test of truth, her feelings lead her to believe that Mormonism and the Mormon church are indeed not true.
However Kate, like other former Mormons I have become acquainted with, have found truth in the Bible and it disagrees with Mormonism, totally. This is evidence from Scripture.
One last thing, the Jesus that Mormons call Jesus, isn’t the Jesus revealed in the Bible. The Mormon Jesus is another Jesus just like the Mormon gospel is a different gospel and the BoM not another testament of Jesus, but false Scripture.
I hope you will consider looking into the Jesus that is revealed in Scripture because He is the only One who can provide eternal life.
Rick B
We mormons have our interpretation of that scripture.
Also if you and I are both following false teachings and the Muslims are right then we’re both going to burn. Just because the another religion’s punishment for not believing is severe isn’t a good reason to convert.
TjayT and Mrs Tjay,
Mrs Tjay , thank you for taking the time to share your convictions with us. You did
mention that you would’nt be responding to any further comments , and that’s fine.
I would briefly comment on some things you did say and TjayT can reply if he chooses
to. You said, ” I don’t care at all if I become a goddess or even what my role is in the
afterlife…” and ” All I’m going to do is live my life to please my God…” When you
said ” I don’t care …” that is not uncommon response by some Mormons when asked
about some of the more ” unique” doctrines from Mormon leaders . I was told that very
thing by a Mormon man once when we were discussing his becoming an Almighty God
in the afterlife , but I found this response very sad because it revealed a dangerous
submission to a prophet . It reminded me so much of my wife and the prophet she
once followed. She also felt that to please God was to submit to her prophet teachings ,
and failure to do so would bring God’s judgement on her life . She once felt as you do now
that for her life to please God meant following her prophet , this meant that she would
not go to heaven , that despite following Jesus that He was not her mediator , and she
could’nt partake of communion (sacrament ) as all these things were reserved for
a tiny number of annointed worthy believers only and that number was filled up in
1935. She could also please God by not allowing her son a life saving blood transfusion.
[cont].
cont.
These doctrines she embraced because of a modern day prophet , a prophet who
claimed to be the sole channel of spiritual truth to mankind today , just like your
church claims . I say all this for you to know that there can be a stark difference
between pleasing God by following the teachings of Jesus’ apostles in the New
Testament compared to the teachings of supposedly modern-day apostles . Please
be discerning , test Mormon apostles—1Jn 4:1 ; Rev.2:2. One last item , you said
that you and Tjay are in agreement on the spiritual truths of your church etc. That
is important in a marriage. I hope that both of you can at some point discuss a very
real scenario that could affect especially you in the afterlife , namely polygamy. It is
a doctrine of Mormonism that should you die before your husband he can choose to
accept another wife and be sealed to her in the Temple . This would mean that you
will share him with another woman in heaven . I only point this out because it has
happened with two recent apostles of your church. You both may have some very
deep feelings now against this being possible , but in a religion that declares it a part
of their gospel and given how life can bring changes to personal lives , don’t easily
dismiss this , instead discuss it . Given Jesus warning about false prophets coming,
it behooves all of us to be on guard for such . I do hope you’ll consider what has been
said here, and thanks again for sharing your story with us .
TJAY said
Why cant people just take God at His word and look at it like this, If He said it He meant it. Why do you have to say, well I want to believe something else, so I believe even though God said we wont be married in heaven, what He really meant was, we will be married.
That would be like me saying, TJAY said he was married, But since I feel TJAY must be a homosexual I will choose to believe He is Gay, and when He says he has a wife, he really is just putting a view of a women on his Man. That makes no sense and is really dumb way to think.
TJAY let me also add what BY said
In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask’s BY a question. If BY can believe the Bible as is, why cant you?
TJAY said
Depth of conviction, sincerity and devotion really don’t have anything to do with truth. I know that Mormons think that feelings reflect/indicate that a supreme being is communicating with them.
I can understand how a woman would get an emotional buzz over the romantic idea that her and her man are being sealed in a religious edifice and it means that they will be together forever. That thought can easily make the romantically inclined to go all squishy.
The fact of the matter in sales is that if the salesperson can generate enough feelings, they’re going to make a sale. That why the Mormon Missionary presentation is structured to generate feelings.
In the end, when it comes to spiritual matters, it doesn’t matter how someone feels about something being true or not, but rather is it in fact true.
Where does this idea of doing rituals in a Mormon temple, especially the marriage sealing, have any place in God’s program? There are Mormon folks who go through some of these rituals and it freaks them out to the point that they swear never to go back. So based on the Mormon feelings test, these rituals are false, right?
The reason that the temple ceremonies are invalid and ineffective is because they are not only based on false premises but on a false God.
The simple message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that we have been reconciled to God through the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Religious traditions and rituals invented by false prophets won’t get the job done; no matter how a person feels about them.
When I came to Jesus in faith I didn’t feel anything in particular unless it was relief. I had come to see that my sin was separating me from God and the solution to this situation was to accept, in faith, what Jesus had done for me. I understood that he paid my debt in full on the cross and through faith in Him I was reconciled to the Father.
No amount of “doing” or “feeling” on my part before, during or after my conversion, could add to the fact of the matter; I was a sinner and I needed saving.
I believed what God’s Word said about my spiritual condition and what the remedy for that condition was.
There’s no doubt that the conversion process can and often does involve feelings. “Conviction” carries a feeling. Hopelessness, despair and guilt are emotions. Relief and joy are strong emotions. In some ways, I don’t like this time of the year with the Holy Week recollections because remembering what Jesus went through brings me anxiety, stress and grief. In-other-words, it makes me feel really bad.
To the Mormon I would say that there is nothing you can do inside or outside the temple that’s going to make one iota of difference regarding your spiritual status or eternal destiny.
I would say first and foremost, you need to get it straight regarding who Jesus is. He’s not, as Mormonism clearly teaches, the spirit offspring of a father god, mother goddess tandem procreating spirit children on or near the planet Kolob. This isn’t even very good science fiction or heresy for that matter.
Who Jesus is and what he has done for us isn’t revealed by false prophets within the Mormon religious system.
It’s to be found in God’s Word, the only source of His revelation.
Rick said: “Just so you are aware, Jesus said we will neither be given in marriage nor be married in Heaven.”
TJayT said: “We mormons have our interpretation of that scripture.”
The problem TJayT, is that Mormons don’t read the verses before that scripture. This is one of those verses that is cherry picked and an entire doctrine created around it. Why did Jesus say this?
Mathew 22:25-30
25. Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27. Finally, the woman died. 28. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her? 29. Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Jesus himself says we will be as the angels in heaven. There was a specific question asked of him about who will be married to this woman. He said “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or power of God.” I believe he would say the same thing to Mormons. This scripture doesn’t mean that we have to be sealed in a LDS temple while alive or have it done by proxy because after we are dead it’s too late because no one can get married in heaven. It means that marriage will not be a part of heaven. No one will be married in heaven, and no one will have a wedding and get married in heaven.
TJAYT,
I left a reply to you on the marriage issue last night, it is in Mod Jail as everyone calls it. So if and when it gets posted it will probably be back up the list so keep an eye out for it.
My post ended with me quoting you saying
I ran out of my word limit and did not bother to finish what I was going to say until my post was put up, but since it is getting later and still not posted, I will finish what I was going to say.
How do you determine who is correct? You said what if we are both wrong and the Muslims are correct. Well we cannot decide who is right or wrong by prayer, everyone says they prayed about it, so that cancels each other out. We cannot base it upon feelings since both the Bible says our hearts are wicked and cannot be trusted, and when it comes to feelings People will tell you what you want to hear n order to get what they want.
Happens a lot to girls and women, they are told by boys or men, you are so beautiful or I love you or what ever, then the girl gives up her body and they Guy gets what he wants and leaves.
We simply have to look at the evidence and decide. The problem is, some people dont care about the evidence. Take a few of the mormons on this blog for example, They say lots of stuff, but it gets refuted by us, and they have no reply. Take the issue of Revelation and the Book of life issue for example. (Cont)
(Cont)
This mormon said we will use the book of life to get the names of people to baptize. Yet he left out the last two verses saying, if you name is not found in the book of life you will be tossed into the lake of fire, and the Bible tells us that the beast and false prophet were tossed into the lake of fire, and 1000 years later everyone else is and the beast and false prophet are still burning in the lake.
Yet he never addressed the issue of why Jesus would toss people in, only to have them removed later from proxy baptism. You You cannot ignore these issues as if they dont exist. I sent you a list of contradictions, try as you might you cannot ignore them as if they dont exist. Even if you found a way to refute everyone, that is only the tip of the ice burg. As you know we have addressed many issues, you can find all these same issues with Islam and many massive contradictions and problems.
You wont find these problems in the Bible. Yet many if not all LDS try and say these things exist in the Bible and keep throwing it under the bus. But we keep coming back and explaining how these really are not problems. Yet the issue is, LDS want to believe what they want to believe.
You, yourself have said their are many things in LDS doctrine you dont believe or agree with. Yet JS said a man cannot be saved in ignorance. So how can you be sure your saved in Mormonism if you are ignorant of many teachings in LDS doctrines? You are not a prophet yet you disagree with them, so who is correct, them or you? and why
I know that rick and I, more so than other Christian posters, are often challenged by Mormon posters here at MC who say we are wrong about Mormonism. Maybe it’s the way rick and I write that gets under the skin of the fervent Mormons challenging us, but none-the-less when we ask them to show us where we are wrong they become strangely silent.
TJay recently intimated that he could be offended by the way I characterize what and how he believes about Mormonism.
Really all I do, as does rick, is feedback to Mormons what they, and their prophets for that matter, have written and said.
After having this happen on many occasions, I’ve concluded a couple of things. First of all Mormonism is a wide open religion, not clearly defined, with a lot being left up to the mind and imagination of the Mormon. This is so much so that in my opinion, the dedicated Mormon just sort of throws up his or her hands and exclaims that they’ll leave it all up to the Mormon god to sort out in the end.
That wouldn’t satisfy me; the “all better now” blankie explanations that Mormons wrap themselves in, would not be satisfactory for me.
I’m not going to depend on feelings as a form of communication from God, nor would I depend on the word of false prophets who are more often wrong than right.
Mormonism can’t even get its own basic beliefs in order. It all pretty much a feelings focused program that encourages Mormons to ignore the man behind the curtain pulling the levers.
Mormonism is just a lot of blue smoke and mirrors that has the effect of jacking up the emotions of some people. Fortunately two-thirds of those on the membership list have skipped out.
There is one thing that Mormonism, Salt Lake City version, has made abundantly clear is that men and women go to the temple to be sealed to one another for time and eternity.
After they die they then go tripping off to the Celestial Kingdom where they will receive their eternal reward which is that he will get to be a god and she will fulfill the role of heavenly mother. They will procreate spirit children who have the job of populating the planetary system that the man-to-god Mormon will rule.
That’s what Mormonism is all about. To pretend that it’s about something else is ridiculous.
Mike was correct in pointing out that if wife number one dies and the Mormon husband gets sealed to another woman, he’s got two procreating heavenly mothers in his organization. For the Mormon woman who just wants to know that hubby will be by her side for all eternity, she better realize that if the above scenario plays out, she’s going to be sharing him with some other babe clinging to his other arm.
With the number of temple marriages ending in divorce, this sealing for time and eternity is even more bogus. Look at the case of Marie Osmond. Divorced from hubby number one, married to hubby number two, all kinds of sealings of children and then remarried to hubby number one.
I don’t know, but it all sounds pretty confusing. Not to worry. The Mormon god will figure it all out in the end. Right!
There are things being said on this blog that I cannot explain but I agree with. I don’t focus on a heavenly mother as being there. There are a lot of things going on in this world that I would like to figure out that would help me understand God and Jesus whom He has sent than a heavenly mother. You regular bloggers here don’t understand how I feel or what I believe in. The understanding might be mutual. Time and again I hear that you have proven that mormonism is wrong. No, you haven’t. You in your mind think you have. I see that you might think I have to believe like you. I Don’t have to believe what you believe and neither do you.
clyde,
A couple of points. First of all, Mormonism has been proven to be wrong. It is not a restoration of first century Christianity since there is no record of it. There are records of all sorts of heresies. We have the writings of the early Church Fathers. Mormonism is the invention of a 19th century religious entrepreneur. In order to make Mormonism work, there has to be the invention of all sorts of conspiracy theories and a lot of misinformation.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that Mormonism is indeed the real deal.
I’m sorry but understand how you feel? What does that mean? What are you looking for in terms of us understanding how you feel.
I know how people feel who have given their lives to Mormonism and then discovered that it is a false religious system.
We very clearly understand what you believe in, we just don’t believe it, but understand it, yes we do.
Quite frankly clyde, the Mormons who pass by here demonstrate everyday that they don’t understand what they believe in.
Clyde, based on what you just stated about your own Mother in heaven we thus know
how you do feel , and it’s a sad. Your church manuals teach you to show gratitude to
your earthly parents by telling them of how much they mean to you , the same
behavior is proper to your Father in heaven thru prayer . Yet your leaders
have counseled faithful Mormons that to pray to your dear Mother in heaven and tell
her this is improper Christian behavior ! That’s not a family value I’d be proud of.
So I guess we know how you feel about her —that is if you’re submissive to your
prophet . No amount of rationalizing by you on this issue can make up for this . You
also seemed concerned about having to believe just like us . Well, if by that you
mean that you need to dismiss your apostles and come to an understanding of what
Jesus’ apostles taught in the New Testament about how to receive eternal life , then I’d
say yes you do . But make no mistake , we’re all just sinners who’ve found the Savior ,
no secret Temple rituals, no allegiance to one man who claims to be the mouth-
piece of God , no climbing a ladder of works to merit eternal life . Just Jesus –Jn14:6
Phil 3:9 ; Heb 7:25 .
Hey TJAY,
The post I told you that was in Mod jail has still not been posted, and I have not heard as to why or why not. So here it goes again.
You said
I said, Why is it that LDS cannot simply take Jesus at His word, If He said it then He meant it. Why do LDS have to say, Well Jesus said we will not be married or given in marriage in Heaven, but I think what Jesus really meant was, We will be married in Heaven. Thats crazy to think like that.
Thats like you saying to me, I TJAY am married, But I come along and say, I dont think thats what TJ meant, I think TJ meant he is gay and has a husband but is simply saying it is a women. How crazy is that?
Also have you ever read what BY said about the Bible?
He said In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask’s BY a question.
If your prophet said and believed that, then why cant LDS? The answer is simply, you guys dont care what the prophets teach.
Clyde said
It has been proven to be false, You simply choose to believe in it despite the problems. It’s like the Bible says, You choose to live in darkness rather than light. Why is it if we took all the evidence to a court of law, this would get thrown out as a waste of time?
The Bible says to give every man an answer that asks for the hope that lies with in you, and the Bible says to contend for the faith. LDS do neither and instead claim we are persecuting them when we questions things. And if your honest you must answer why do so many questions go ignored and avoided if you really have the truth, all the answers and living prophets?
Why do LDS disagree with the living prophets and even with each other if it is so simple? Easy, its not simply and you really have no answers. But as usual, you will ignore this.
MikeR
Let me first take a moment and offer my deep felt sorrow and condolences for you’re wife’s son.
My wife and I have actually talked about this subject before. While I don’t personally see myself ever marrying again (though it may happen, who knows) the fact also remains that God in his infinite wisdom may also ask us to become sealed to someone else before the resurrection. What makes this a non-issue in our minds is that realization that there will be no jealousy, envy, anger or imperfection of any kind in our attitudes when we’re with God.
Kate
Here are two non-Lds links talking about marriage in heaven.
http://www.perkersonpark.com/2009/04/is-there-really-no-marriage-in-heaven.html
http://whatthebiblesays.info/Marriageinheaven.html
I will be the first to admit that this is the minority view in mainstream Christianity. But Mormon’s aren’t the only ones that think this way.
RickB
My answer to Kate about marriage should work for your post about it as well.
You asked how we can know the truth. I would answer with John 14:26
When it comes to the Book of Life I don’t see a problem with how he talked about using it. If someone wishes to have saving ordinances done for them then there name would be in the book. If they don’t then they wouldn’t be, and so will be cast out. There wouldn’t be any plucking out and being saved. That said I have never heard that we would use the Book of Life. I was always told that Christ would be the one directly telling us who would want ordinances done. Unless Christ is the Book of Life and I’ve missed something somewhere. (cont)
(cont)
You say we won’t find any of these problems in the Bible. Jewish Rabbis would disagree with you there, or else they wouldn’t be Jewish. Just because we accept our answers to there criticisms doesn’t mean they will. Just like we don’t accept there answers to our criticisms and you don’t accept mine about Mormonism.
I’m still working on the list of contradictions you sent me. Sorry it’s taking so long but we’ve had a few family emergencies and there’s a lot of ground to cover in the list. I promise I’m not ignoring you or it.
Falcon
I don’t have a problem with the way Rick comes across. Honestly 90% of the time I don’t have a problem with how you come across. All I was getting at was that it’s easy to see just how little you think of the Lds religion (I believe I even remember reading a comment from you on that subject). Many times it also reads like you think very little of the Mormon people as well, because we’re dumb enough to believe these things. You may very well not feel this way about us, and even if you do it’s your right to think and feel however you want. But don’t be surprised when it upsets some people, and even occasionally rubs my fairly thick skin a little thin.
My first post is in Mod jail just so everyone knows. Things will make a bit more sense when it pops up.
TJay,
It’s easy to turn this on “Christianity has problems too”. It’s a diversionary tactic that we see often here at MC with Mormon posters. That’s our buddy Ralph’s favorite strategy for trying to divert attention away from the real problems associated with Mormonism.
It’s kind of like Mormons want to be saying that given the problems that Mormons have it’s all even because other religions have problems also.
I don’t think the tactic is a very good defense of Mormonism. In fact it’s no defense at all.
The basis for the Mormon personal faith is a feeling experienced when they prayed about the BoM. Once that feeling has been received then everything in Mormonism must be considered true and the Mormon leaders must be followed at all costs.
Just like there’s no crying in baseball, there is no questioning allowed in Mormonism. In fact there’s a mantra in Mormonism that goes, “Once the leaders have spoken, the thinking has been done!” Another one, “Follow the leaders, they will never lead you astray.”
Mormonism is, like I always say, all about the system. Mike R. is passionate about pointing to the Mormon leaders as very poor guides regarding what God is speaking.
Brigham Young comes to mind as a virtual treasure trove of inane pronouncements and doctrines that today’s Mormons are running away from as fast as possible. Even the burning in the bosom isn’t sufficient to cover Brigham Young’s false prophesies.
When a person’s faith in a religion is based on a feeling they got associated with the (religion), they will suspend credulity to keep the fantasy going.
That’s what Mormonism is all about.
TJay,
I think your comments regarding Christianity tells me that you are admitting that Mormonism has some major problems. “It’s a matter of interpretation” really isn’t going to fly when it comes to the glaring problems associated with Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophets, and the religion in general.
We can deal with facts about Mormonism that need no interpretation or subtle nuance or the charge of lack of spiritual giftedness on the part of the person doing the questioning. It straight forward facts.
That’s why the burning in the bosom experience is so central to maintaining faith in Mormonism. Apart from that feeling, there’s very little to sustain any sort of credibility in the Mormon system.
Without some form of standard to compare to, any pronouncement by any emerging prophet can be considered valid.
Mormonism isn’t valid by the standards of the Christian faith. Joseph Smith knew that so he declared the Christian faith in error and then took off on his own flight of spiritual fancy. All he had to do was be confident and convincing and his claims of a fallen away apostate church in need of a restored gospel were home free.
That’s why he could say, for example, that an angel with a sword appeared to him threatening to kill him if he didn’t practice polygamy. Really? Mormons are then stuck with trying to explain why this guy bedded a couple of fourteen year old girls and women married to other men. Again, he just set his own standard. Apart from such a standard, Smith could just run wild, which he did.
My observation is that there are many Mormons who just turn a blind eye to the problems of Smith, the other prophets and the more unacceptable doctrines because they like the culture of Mormonism and the people.
TjayT, I’m sorry that the way I wrote the part about denying a blood transfusion
gave the impression that my wife’s son died . I could have articulated it more clearly
as her son did’nt die . The prophet she followed taught that blood transfusion were
against God’s law and many children have died as result of their parents refusing to
allow their children one , just like my wife would have if her son had needed one ,
still she did’nt have to go thru that ordeal . I do thank you for your kind words though.
A brief comment on polygamy: while I’m glad you have discussed the very real
possibility of this happening within your future family I think you first need to ask
yourselves if this practice is a really part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus directed
His apostles to preach the truths of His New Covenant , and polygamy is far from being
a part of that gospel. May you take confidence that what is required for man to be
reconciled to God and live a life according to God’s will isl available by reading the
New Testament . By following apostles that teach polygamy is a part of Jesus’ gospel
is to embrace another gospel, and that can be very serious —2Jn 9 ; gal.1:8-9.
TJayT,
The second link doesn’t show who is writing or putting the information up there. My response to you is that just because a couple of websites misinterpret that scripture doesn’t make it correct. I will believe what Jesus says plainly. There are so many verses in the Bible that Mormons cherry pick and create whole doctrines around that it’s easy for me to spot that this is what has happened with this verse. Jesus speaks plainly. That’s who I will believe. No twisting, or thinking maybe he could have meant something else.
TJAY,
When you said the Jewish people and us Christians disagree and that shows their is problems, Thats not entirely true. They only reject the part about Jesus as the coming messiah. They still believe in God and Him being the only God. They dont believe in Mormonism, and I know their might be a small handful that due, But the majority dont and I even asked them rabbis when I was in Israel.
Kate, Twice now I tried posting On the Marriage issue to Tjay, it keeps getting into Mod jail and never posted, I also have not heard why. So I simply emailed him my reply, but here was something BY said that I thought everyone might find helpful when Mormons twist Bible verses.
In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask’s BY a question.
If the LDS prophet said he believes scripture, then why cant the LDS?
Here’s the whole problem with Mormonism or for that matter any of the other “revealed” religions that emerged in early 19th century America.
They all had a “prophet” with a “revealed” message. Most often the established Christian faith was called into question as having gone into some sort of apostasy or have strayed from the truth.
The new modern day prophet had some form of scripture or written prophecy to bolster and reinforce what often was fantastic visions or angelic appearances.
Actually that’s an often repeated formula through out the ages. I could list all sorts of these religious movements but I’ll link to one that’s directly related to Mormonism. Mormonism seems to have the dubious distinction of spinning off all sorts of Mormon sects large and small. It’s the tradition of the “prophet” and the “revelation” that are common to all (of these sects). Check-out “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer which Newsweek called “Scrupulously reported and written….” Mormons have tossed all of their faith chips in the pile betting on Joseph Smith. Actually he’s no different nor unique than any of the other “prophets” that come along from time to time.
Here’s another link that Mormons might find interesting.
http://www.parishretreat.org/index.php?id=story
Here’s a really good website with a pretty exhaustive list of religious groups and movements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
I think it’s a great resource for those, like me, who have an interest in such things. There are a number of groups on the list that are Mormon in origin. What fascinates me about these groups is that they all have the truth.
Anyway, it’s possible to click on a link of the name of a group and get a little synopsis and history.
Here’s one that’s pretty cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaronic_Order
I’m back to my point which is, why not believe any prophet that comes out of the chute riding the wild bucking bronco of the modern day prophet, revelation, visions, appearances of heavenly beings and of course supplemental scripture?
If the story gives a person an emotional buzz, that’s a sure sign that God is in it. After all, an emotional buzz with a physical reaction is a sure sign of spiritual truth.
Nothing like the power of suggestion.
Kate, you said , ” I will believe what Jesus says plainly “. That ‘s the safe course for
us to follow when it comes to embracing spiritual truth. The Bible does not support
what Mormon apostles have taught about marriage in heaven , eternal marriage etc.
In fact we have a great example here of why we can’t trust Mormon leaders to be
relaying truth about much of what they’ve taught about marriage ever since their claim
to have been personally appointed by Jesus since 1830 to teach on this subject . These
men advertise that safety from embracing inaccurate teachings on important doctrines
like marriage is found in the counsel of their prophet/apostles. That the trustworthy
interpretation of the written Word of God is vested in these men as they constitute the
sole authorized channel today that God uses to reveal His important truths through .
The claim is made that there has never been a time when LDS could’nt put confidence
in the doctrinal teachings of their prophets . The following are a sample of what these
men have offered as truth concerning marriage or eternal marriage:
– polygamy is a gospel ordinance , to those who embrace it Godhood awaits .
– polandry also a part of Jesus’ gospel
– couples with black skin forbidden eternal marriage .
– Mormon women desiring to marry a man holding a higher priesthood position could
do so if their current husband consented, no divorce necessary—-prophet B. Young .
– Mormon apostles publically teaching that God is a polygamist .
– Mormon apostles Orson Pratt teaching that God and Marry were married briefly so
that the virgin birth could be ” lawful” .
[ cont]
Mike,
What you write makes perfect sense but these new modern revelation religions don’t really care what Jesus had to say; only if it agrees with what they say. They don’t come right out and say that so what they do is plant doubt in the minds of people that the Bible, as given, has been corrupted or that the established faith has fallen into apostasy.
It’s pretty convenient because these “prophets” arrive just in the nick of time to save humanity.
I must admit, I don’t have a lot of patience with these groups. The followers I can cut a little slack to however when the trumpet blows, excuses for following a false prophet are going to be pretty thin.
I just keep asking myself, “Why don’t these folks do a little independent study instead of accepting what these aberrant groups and false prophets teach them?”
I often recall the words of Dr. Walter Martin author of “The Kingdom of the Cults”. He said, “Question everything someone tells you…….even me.”
What he was strongly advising was being a religious skeptic. That’s not allowed in the Jehovah Witness or Mormon cults. It’s all about following the leaders and swallowing everything they put out even if it changes. They have that covered also by saying they have “more light now” or “progressive revelation”.
That would have never worked in school if I turned in a test and then asked to take it everyday until I got the answers right. But cults mark on a curve as far as the leadership is concerned. A leader can never be wrong even if they are.
cont
– for years only a woman needed permission from the Hierarchy ( sealing cancellation)
before re-marrying in the Temple , now men do also .
– in 1988 a new doctrine : a deceased woman sealed in life to one husband may also be
sealed to another man with whom she lived as a wife . [ Can Mormonism be the Answer
p. 65 ]
– Adam was a polygamist .
All this and then we hear from a Mormon apostle : ” We teach the same gospel in all it’s
simplicity and plainness that Jesus preached …” [ Wilford Woodruff ]
Unlike Mormon apostles who offer as spiritual truth only their own human ideas ,
” the precepts of men ” [ 2Nephi 28:14,31] , we rest in the fact that if Jesus wanted
us to know of any doctrine so important to our eternal afterlife , like eternal marriage
He would have made it very plain , and He did’nt . There is no human marriage
relationships going to take place in heaven , especially the Mormon version . Love
between family members ? You bet . A love that we can’t imagine , and all because of
Jesus not thru any secret Temple rituals . For many Mormon women the future after
death holds a lifetime of producing babies who will be their husband’s kingdom . A
kingdom not unlike the Mormon God has produced for this earth. But for those Mormon
women who have left their apostles and turned to Jesus there is a secure future without
this false doctrine .
Falcon, you brought up some very pertinent questions. I think what you said about
the difference between the rank and file Mormon vrs Mormon leadership is important,
we need to remember that. The error of Mormonism lies with their leadership, these
men are who set the doctrine that rank and file members follow . Unfortunately though
for the rank and file members there is a terrible price to pay for following false prophets/
teachers : Isa.9:16; Matt 15:14. You ask why don’t Mormons seem to question what
their leaders teach ? Fear of God’s judgement plays a major part in this , it is taught in
Church publications that to doubt that their prophets are hearing from God in what they
teach is to allow the Devil a place in their lives, it is to start on the path to apostasy .
You’re right in that we need to be very cautious in accepting any “gospel” offered by
a prophet , since Mormon apostles claim that Jesus is actively and personally directing
them to reveal His gospel truths since 1830 then we can compare these teachings with
what Jesus’ apostles taught in the New Testament. We’re warned by Jesus that
in the last days there would many false prophets advertising their gospels.
You mentioned ” more light now “. One common tactic that false prophets use is to
find a phrase or term in the Bible , because people trust the Bible, and manipulate it
just enough to serve as an alibi for their doctrinal flip flops. Using new “light” (Prov4;18)
or ” line upon line ” ( Isa 28 ) is well used by these men . reject a doctor who shows a
pattern of being unreliable as a surgeon, same for apostles today 2Cor11:13
Hey everyone,
Sharon is on vacation and I’m moderating for now… the comment holdups were entirely my fault, I missed some of them last night, and was out all day today. I’ve rectified the problem, and promise to be more diligent. Sorry if my mistake interrupted any conversations. (I have moderated on a few occasions, and will stay on top of things). Again, my apologies for any distress I may have caused.
~johnny
Hey TJAYT,
When I said that us Christians and the Jews Believe mush of the same things, since you felt we contradict one another, here is some more thoughts on that issue.
Read the New Testament, Jesus rebukes the Jewish leaders and says to them, You have man made traditions. That is part of the problem that you seem to think is a contradiction. Lots of things the Jews believe and teach are simply man made problems and not said of God or commanded by God.
So if you have any problems and say, look here is a contradiction or problem please bring it forward. Unlike the BoM and LDS church where your leaders cannot agree and change doctrine like underwear, That does not happen in the Bible. also I understand your busy, so am I, I started a new and better job, so as far as you working on that list I sent you, remember this, even if you find a way to excuse everything, that still does not even scratch the surface of problems, I can send you another list that long or longer or Mormon prophets who cannot agree on Doctrine and other major points of Mormonism.
You have so many problems to over come to honestly believe what you do. Rick
I have started reading the NT and found this –
Matt 21:12-15 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
Mark 11:15 and Luke 19:45 says that Jesus went INTO the temple; John 2:14 references Jesus finding the money lenders IN the temple. How can He find things IN the temple if He wasn’t in it?
In Luke 19:47 we find “And he taught daily IN the temple.”
In Luke 2 we find the story of a young Jesus who was missing and where did they find Him? Luke 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
So unless the Bible is wrong, I believe that Jesus did enter INTO the temple and also taught IN it on a daily basis at one point in time. Or can you tell me how “into” and “in” mean something different?
After Jesus’ ascension we also find that His disciples went to the temple DAILY in Acts 2:46.
Ralph, as you noted in a past comment (and as Aaron annotated his post), the temple complex was comprised of several areas or sections. Jesus could and did enter the temple complex, along with Jews, Gentiles, men, women and children, but He did not — indeed could not — enter the temple (structure) itself. Only priests from the tribe of Levi could enter therein and perform temple duties for the people. I have been in Mormon temples, viewed the veil, stood in the Celestial Room, but I have not — indeed cannot — participate in the temple ordinances. I have also been in dedicated temples, not allowed to venture past the recommend desk, but allowed to sit in an outer room where unworthy guests may wait while those further inside the temple complete their work. I can truthfully say that I have been IN Mormon temples. I can truthfully say that I have taught and prayed IN Mormon temples. But the fact remains that I have never entered a Mormon temple to participate in Mormon temple work. Similarly, I can say that I went to Christ’s Church College at Oxford — which I did — but I was never enrolled as a student. Aaron’s post is meant to point out that Jesus was not allowed in, and never entered into, the temple structure in Jerusalem — He was of the wrong tribe. When the Bible says He went into the temple, it is referring to the temple complex/temple grounds, not the temple structure (comprised of the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies).
Sharon,
Thank you for clearing this up for me. I was still under the impression that Jesus taught in the temple until I read it was the “temple courts.” I do know how the temple worked before Jesus came.
Ralph,
Do you know what the temple was used for? How it all worked? You did have to belong to the tribe of Levi, I wonder if every LDS male who receives the priesthood is of the tribe of Levi? Could you get back to me on that? Also, I’m wondering how many animal sacrifices are being made in LDS temples today? You mentioned the money changers in the temple. Does the LDS change money in their temples? What about where Jesus says he will not dwell in temples made by hands?