Eliza Wood, a contributing blogger to Huffington Post, recently (27 July 2012) wrote an article titled, “Are Mormons Closer to Muslims or Christians?” Her reason for tackling this question:
“As the media shapes our understanding of the Mormon faith, now that we Americans consider electing our first Mormon presidential candidate (Mitt Romney), it might be wise for us to better understand the similarities and the differences among Christianity and these two faiths.”
She begins her article by asking the question:
“Are Mormons any closer to Christians than Muslims? Short answer: no.”
Ms. Wood then provides her readers with a “long answer” to support her claim. She writes,
“While in some ways neither Islam nor Mormonism is very much like Christianity, the two faiths actually have a lot of similarities.”
Ms. Wood then raises no fewer than 19 points of similarity between Mormonism and Islam, including historical, doctrinal, and behavioral aspects of the two faiths.
She doesn’t get everything right, but she adequately defends the validity of her premise: Islam and Mormonism have a lot in common (see Eric Johnson’s Joseph Smith and Muhammad for a good, detailed analysis of the similarities).
The information Ms. Wood provides her readers regarding how Mormonism and Islam differ from Christianity is vague, but is spot on (as far as it goes). She writes,
“Jesus’ teachings were a bit archived in both [religions] because Muhammad and Joseph Smith were both visited by angels who told them to receive new orders from God. Both have respected Jesus’ messages but moved forward with other teachings and practices that are not consistent with Christianity.”
Of course, Mormons would disagree with this assessment, but only because they are taught that it was historical Christianity that “moved forward with other teachings and practices that are not consistent” with Jesus’ messages.
Mormons and Christians may continue to debate who is right and who is wrong about what Jesus taught, but we need to be sure we don’t miss the central point that Mormonism and Christianity (as Christianity has long been known and understood) are significantly different from one another. Ms. Wood notes that Mormonism and Islam
“…have common ground with Christianity, and much of it. But both Islam and Mormonism are at best very distant cousins of Christianity with some of the same overarching guidance.”
However, she continues, the differences are clear enough that no one should ever need to question the fact that neither of them are Christian religions.
“Neither Islam nor Mormonism is a close enough relative to ever be confused with Christianity. If a Christian of any denomination inadvertently walked into a Mormon [temple] or a mosque, which would be fairly difficult since both allow only members of their faith to enter, there is no way the service could be recognized as a Christian devotion to Christ, but there is plenty of devotion to God going on.”
Indeed, the Mormon temple’s pantomimed “signs,” closely guarded “tokens” (special handshakes), masonic imagery, vows of secrecy, and unusual temple clothing of hats, sashes and aprons, would never be mistaken for a service of Christian worship–if non-Mormons were allowed to see it. Furthermore, sincere devotion to Mormonism’s God may mark Mormon temple ceremonies, but devotion to the Christian God is nowhere to be found.
Islam is not a Christian religion. Mormonism is not a Christian religion. Ms. Wood gives her readers some excellent advice in her conclusion that I heartily endorse:
“…the next time you read in the press about how Mormons are really Christians, you might want to put on your critical thinking cap.”
One of the hobby horses I ride is the basic premise for Mormonism; that there was a great apostasy in the first century after the death of the apostles. This of course sets up a situation where-by a self-proclaimed prophet can introduce not a “new” gospel, but the original that was supposedly lost.
The problem Mormons have, and there are many, with such a claim is that they can’t prove it. In order to make the case Mormons even invent a conspiracy theory saying that the reason Mormonism can’t be found in the Bible is due to some monks leaving it out. If this doesn’t hit the bell on the truth meter they go for the idea that the Bible was copied so many times that critical information was lost.
These explanations are childish to the point that “the dog ate my homework” has more validity.
I always ask a simple question of Mormons. Prove that Mormonism was the real deal gospel in the first century? We have all sorts of writings by the Church Fathers and in addition comparisons of our earliest manuscripts available of the Bible show a consistency in the text to disprove the idea that copying led to a corrupted (text).
Mormons can’t even seem to get the restored gospel straight. What was once thought to be doctrine in one generation is shelved by latter generations (of Mormons). Even the proliferation of Mormon sects reveals one constant; Mormons can’t even decide among themselves what the Mormon restoration is.
Mormonism is the invention of Joseph Smith, a self-proclaimed prophet. His ever changing story of his first vision reveals a creativity that to be believed requires the suspension of credulity and a desire to believe what is clearly Smith’s personal fantasy.
Jesus warned us to Beware of false prophets who would come—Matt.24:11,24. We see this
come true in the prophet of Islam and in the prophets of Mormonism. They both have some
correct teachings about Jesus but is what they offer about Jesus enough ? [Jn 17:3 ] . Mormon
prophets/apostles claim that God restored the same gospel of salvation that Jesus directed Paul
to preach —Rom 1:16 , and although there is some truth to that claim unfortunately there are
additions to Paul’s gospel by Mormon apostles which renders it another gospel , a look alike,
a imitation version which appears same in appearance but upon examination it is not so in
substance . Paul’s gospel was sufficient , those who embraced it received a complete
forgiveness and a salvation in the fullest —Jn 3:15-18 ; 1 Jn 5:12-13 — this message changed
lives 2000 years ago and still is available to do so today despite the alterations of it by those
who come claiming to be Jesus’ modern -day apostles and who add their own ideas to it and
then advertise their message as the same gospel as Paul . They’ve revised Paul’s gospel .
Falcon said, ” Mormons can’t even seem to get the restored gospel straight.” Good observation.
Despite the claim by Mormon apostles to provide consistent trustworthy guidance in spiritual
truth, an examination of their track record ever since allegedly being appointed by Jesus to teach
His truths, reveals a pattern of inconsistency and confusion, a unreliable channel for gospel
truth . Many Mormons finding this to be unacceptable behavior that they can give their
allegiance to–2Jn 9 ; Jer23:21
I’ve long wondered why Mormons are so obsessed with being perceived as Christian. Even while I was still a devout Mormon, I didn’t care much whether others considered me Christian or not. I had a set of beliefs, and no label, whether “Christian” or “Mormon” really described those beliefs. That said, I understood the need for a way to conveniently refer to my beliefs, and obviously the label “Mormon” did a much better job than “Christian”.
What I find most interesting about this topic is the semantic hypocrisy the LDS church demonstrates on the topic. The LDS church wishes to be considered christian (for whatever reason), yet denies LDS splinter groups have the right to use the label “Mormon”. If they wish to use the label “Christian”, the consistent thing to do would be to admit LDS splinter groups are “Mormon”.
I have to agree with the statement by Ms Wood where she states in describing both Islam
and Mormonism’s devotion to “God” but lacking in a authentic devotion to Christ:
” ….there is no way the service could be recognized as a Christian devotion to Christ, but
there is plenty of devotion to God going on .”
Mormon leaders , like Islam , have teachings about Jesus , and while Mormon prophets have
teachings about Jesus much closer to the Jesus Christ we encounter in the Bible , still have
these men who claim to be modern day apostles taught a correct view of Jesus that will result
in salvation ? After all, as the Bible warns of false gospels so to it reveals that those would come
preaching false Jesus , not the real, authentic one we encounter in the New Testament.
Mormons have a great deal to say about Jesus , they are proud to claim that they
alone are in His church , they alone offer His gospel of salvation , they even have His name on
their church buildings . Yet, although they have some correct teachings about Jesus Christ , they
also have some glaring defects , errors which are extremely serious and in fact would render
their apostles as not being directed by Him in promoting a saving relationship —Jn. 17: 3 .
One example I’ve found is there seems to be a variance between Mormon authorities as to
what constitutes a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Some declare that it is improper to
to pray to Jesus , to worship Him, yet others state that they do worship Him ( although without
prayer rendered to Him ) . The Bible reveals [cont]
the Bible reveals that a wholesome devotion to Jesus involves interaction with Him , this is the
Father’s will. Christians delight in prayer to Jesus as it is part of their worship of Him . After
all He is worthy to receive such devotion . May the Mormon people come to realize that to
follow Jesus , to Know Him , is more than being obedient to what He asks us to do , it involves
a intimate personal devotion to Him on a daily basis , thanking Him , praising Him , for His great
devotion to us . This is the type of relationship the Father has arranged for those who would
come to Jesus —-Matt 11:27 -30
I guess the only way Mormons can get away with calling themselves Christians is to lay claim to having in their possession, the real deal original gospel.
The problem with this of course is there isn’t any Mormonism in the Bible, in the writings of the Church Fathers, or even in the traditions of the Christian church or those considered (by the Church) as heretical.
So think about Mormonism and how it has changed since its incorporation by Joseph Smith in when, 1832? The only thing I can figure out is that Smith must not have received the full Mormon gospel immediately but had little bits and pieces parceled out by the Mormon god over time. Even after his death more of this real deal first century gospel came trickling out and then there was some monster big back-tracking on previous aspects of the restored gospel.
So I’m wondering, did the original disciples of Jesus practice polygamy? Did they have Mormon temples and wear those costumes while performing Masonic Lodge rituals? Did they wear sacred underwear with occult symbols on them? Did they believe that they would become gods and reach the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom only through the practice of polygamy?
Did they build shopping malls and buy cattle ranches with the tithes of the members?
It’s interesting that two of the Mormon sects basically pattern their doctrine after what Smith originally had revealed to him. And this restored doctrine that these two groups of Mormon follow, looks an awfully lot like Christianity.
So what do you think? Can the Community of Christ sect and the Temple Lot sect call themselves Christians?
BTW, the SLC bunch doesn’t even own the Joseph Smith Version of the King James Bible nor do they own the temple lot upon which the temple is to be built.
As I started reading Ms. Wood’s article I couldn’t figure out where she was coming from or exactly how she though her comparisons where related to Mormonism’s place in Christianity. Then I read the last comparison that she made, and it all suddenly made sense.
“If a Christian of any denomination inadvertently walked into a Mormon tabernacle or a mosque, which would be fairly difficult since both allow only members of their faith to enter, there is no way the service could be recognized as a Christian devotion to Christ, but there is plenty of devotion to God going on.”
For those of us that know the LDS religion (member and critic alike) a few things should jump out at you. First, Non-Members CAN enter Mormon Tabernacles. Second, LDS church buildings (which are our equivalent of Muslim Mosques)are also open to Non-Members. And if that wasn’t enough, mosques are ALSO open to non-members.
I can only assume that Ms. Wood was trying to compare the fact that LDS temples and Islam’s holiest sites aren’t open to outsiders. However this gets to the heart of this article’s main problem. It seems pretty obvious to me that the author hasn’t really studied the LDS faith.
Another (and bigger) problem is the authors apparent lack of understanding of the Mormon view of Jesus. The artical’s first comparisons try to show that both Mormons and Muslims believe that Jesus was ‘a prophet’ (something Christians believe as well). However she doesn’t seem to know than we also believe Jesus was fully divine and the prophesied Messiah of the Old Testament. Lines like “they had prophets after Jesus they believe to be more authentic and current then Jesus” and “Jesus’ teaching where a bit archived in both” serve to highlight this. I’ll be the first person to admit that our view of exactly what Jesus is differs from Mainstream Christianity, but Ms. Woods tries to make it sound like we have the EXACT same beliefs as Islam about what Jesus is, and that’s blatantly false.
There are other problems like the two I mentioned above, all pointing to the conclusion the Ms. Wood doesn’t know as much about Mormons as she wants others to believe. Combing that with the fact that of the Twenty-three comparisons I noticed in her article twelve of these where also shared with Christian, two where flat out false, two where only partially true and six don’t really have anything to do with Mormons status as “Christians”, instead simply being a compare and contrast of interesting but in the end irrelevant things. When all was said and done I could take her article seriously, let alone her conclusions.
The tactic of comparing one religion to another in hopes of “proving” it to be false isn’t new. Judaism has been doing it for millennia, claming Christianity has more in common with Mithraism and Zoroastrianism then with the God of Torah. In the end comparisons can interesting but are more often then not irrelevant to religious truth claims.
You’re doing the Mormon thing you bad boy! You wrote:
“…….we also believe Jesus was fully divine and the prophesied Messiah of the Old Testament.”
What I mean is that Mormons have a very sneaky way of saying things that make it sound like they believe just the same as Christians do when it comes to who Jesus is. Now I’m going to give you a chance to maintain your credibility here and ask you to do a side by side comparison of what Mormons believe about who Jesus is and what Christians believe regarding who Jesus is.
For example you could point out that like the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons believe that Jesus is a “created” being. Mormonism takes off from the JWs though in that Mormons believe that Jesus is the spirit off-spring of a father god and one of his many wives who live on or near the planet Kolob. It is here that Mormons enter the realm of the truly bizarre and to try and equate the Mormon belief of who Jesus is with that of Christianity, is to pump a very large quantity of blue smoke out of the Mormon fog machine.
I should also mention that the venerated Mormon prophet Brigham Young also taught that Jesus’ physical conception was accomplished by the Mormon god the father having actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary.
So TJay, I think that Mormonism plays the slight-of-hand when they deliberately leave out crucial information about not only the nature of God, but also many other aspects of their beliefs and history.
You seem to have missed what my point actually was. Later in the same section you quoted I went on to say:
“’I’ll be the first person to admit that our view of exactly what Jesus is differs from Mainstream Christianity, but Ms. Woods tries to make it sound like we have the EXACT same beliefs as Islam about what Jesus is, and that’s blatantly false.”
My intention wasn’t to claim that LDS Christology is the same as yours. I even made a point to say as much. I was objecting to Ms. Wood’s apparent belief that our view of Christ is even close to the same as Islam’s.
I’m sure even you can see the misrepresentation of both Mormon and Islamic belief in this line of thinking. There’s a vast difference between the belief that Jesus was a created being that was fully human and fully divine, shairs in the uncreated essence of God (as all spirits do), is a member of the Godhead and is the mediator between God and man on one side; and the Islamic belief that Jesus was a mere mortal Prophet of God, and not even the greatest Prophet at that.
This “comparison”, like so many others brought up in Ms. Woods artical doesn’t hold water.
TjayT, you made some good comments about this lady’s ( Ms Wood) article , and I agree
with them . She acknowledges that the media is shaping our understanding of the Mormon
faith, unfortunately that might not be the best place to get correct info on Mormon doctrine.
We’ve already had a blog recently where a ABC News reporter tried to enlighten us all on an
important doctrine of Mormonism ( Satan and Jesus are spirit brothers ) , he missed the mark in
his comments. What’s also as unfortunate is that we might not get the full story on important
doctrines from the “official” Church web site either . Organizations like Mormonism seem to
have a propensity to create an unhealthy leader- vrs-follower mentality where those that give
allegiance to a hierarchy are’nt allowed to know some very basic courtesy’s like where their
tithes money goes/ hierarchy salaries ; access to historical documents locked up and off
limits in the hierarchy’s ( the First Presidency ) private vault etc etc . This type of behavior
necessitates that ministries like MRM are here to give what Paul Harvey used to say ” now you
know the rest of the story” .
I guess we can take SOME of what reporters like Ms Wood says about Mormonism ( or any
religion) and discuss those and I think that’s what we’re doing . That’s how I look at this
particular thread .
I think the larger concept that Ms Wood was illustrating is exactly right – Mormonism has as much and as little in common with Christianity as Islam. Islam says Christians got Jesus wrong and the Bible wrong. Muslims claim Jesus did not die on a cross for our sins, and that he assended into heaven unharmed. In a similar manner, Mormons also re-write Jesus, with many things Jesus taught being lost – such as temple works He supposedly instituted (right, that’s what Mormons think isn’t it, that the apostles went out and started instituting temple works, marriage sealings, etc.?) and Jesus is not the one true eternal God, but rather one god among many and one of three gods we have here on earth. LDS teach eternal marriage, likewise Muslims believe the sexual relationship between men and women will continue eternally. So both belief systems claim to have the true re-interpreted Jesus that Christians got wrong (according to their beliefs) – and they have a prophet that lead them to beliefs that supplant what Christianity teaches. So, by what Christians believe, yes – both Mormons and Muslims have a prophet that over-rides what Christ taught – because you cannot find either Islam or LDS beliefs in either Scripture or Church history. Jesus teaching has been a bit archived in both – I see this statement as true, although both belief systems would claim Christians got it wrong until their respective prophets came along and corrected the record on Jesus and brought true religion to the world. Think about that, over 1800 years after the fact for Mormons, and 600 years after the fact for Muslims – they got Jesus right, but Christians are wrong.
Well the Mormon Jesus is a little special and a great example, the valiant older spirit brother to all the other procreated spirits. But you know what? According to what you believe you are on the track to become divine also. So while you would see Jesus as special in His mission to earth, you are going to become a god also and with the right amount of effort, who’s to say where you will end-up on the Mormon pantheon of gods.
The Mormon Jesus serves as a great example of what is possible if a Mormon really applies himself and is obedient to his callings.
The Mormon Jesus pulled off sort of a coup because he became a god without having practiced polygamy. Oh I suppose we could go with the idea that Martha and Mary were really Jesus’ wives. I’m sure there has to be at least one Mormon prophet who taught this.
The bottom line is that Mormonism is a total fabrication of a distorted mind. It’s an example of what happens when men begin to think that they are receiving special messages from a deity source.
The ideas that Mormons have about the nature of God and Jesus were cut from whole cloth by a not very talented tailor.
I must have missed the ABC Jesus/Satan expose because it doesn’t ring any bells. And I agree with you that there’s nothing wrong with having conversations about good points outsiders bring up about Mormonism. I just wish that either Ms. Wood had done a bit more research or had someone more knowledge edit the artical. It could have been an interesting piece but any message she wanted to get across lost most of it’s impact due to blatant errors. At least from a Mormon perspective.
Your post is what her artical should have looked like, and what anyone that has taken a bit of time to study the Lds faith wouldn’t have a hard time putting together. While I disagree with a few of your points it’s leaps and bounds better then Ms. Woods article.
Both religions do have similarities, as I think any restorational religion would (and as you’ve pointed out, that really is what is Islam claims to be). To me most of the similarities are interesting but mostly superficial in a relevant. Christianity has aa much in common with some other religions as it does with Judaism, but that doesn’t lead me to believe it any less true.
I would argue that Jesus has always been and will always be vastly different from any other spirit to be eating in Lds theology.There are two main reason for this. First Jesus was capable of being a fully divine and functioning member of the Godhead without going through the crucible of mortality. He did you become mortal, but that was for our benefit not his. If he had never come to Earth he still would have remaind fully divine and fully God. That was something no one else was capable of.
The second reason is he was capable of living a sinless life while mortal, again
something no one else was or will ever be capable.
Is the LDS Christology as vastly fifteenth from humanity as mainstream Christianity’s? No. Our rejection of Creation ex Nihilo guarantees that. But he is far more then a little special and a great example of what is possible. if a Mormon really applies themself. His mortal life is a great example to aspire toward, but he was and is capable of doing and being more then I ever will.
Well that clears it up! Jesus isn’t your spirit brother then, right? And He isn’t the spirit off spring of the Mormon heavenly father and one of his many wives who live on or near the planet Kolob? You didn’t think I was going to leave you off the hook so easily with your hyper-explanation of who Jesus is, did you?
You wrote: “First Jesus was capable of being a fully divine and functioning member of the Godhead without going through the crucible of mortality.”
Please expand on what the “Godhead” is. There is speculation out there in Mormonland that “heavenly mother” is also part of the Mormon godhead. And I’d like to remind you that Mormons believe that there is both a Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit. Are they both fully functioning members of the godhead?
I must admit, you’re pretty good at coming up with explanations regarding Jesus that sound very Christian like on the surface. But once the full implications of what you say are taken into consideration, we see once again that Mormonism is a mish mash of personal notions with no resemblance to what the early Church thought and believed.
Are you telling us that Jesus is “eternal” or that He, like you was the end-product of spirit procreation between the Mormon heavenly father and one of his many wives?
Check out the Bible John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”. One of the attributes of Jesus as revealed in God’s Holy Word the Bible is that He is eternal, unchanging. He always was.
I’m sure you’ve satisfied yourself intellectually regarding your opinion regarding the nature of Jesus but once again, what you’ve embraced is what you think not what is revealed.
You wrote in regard to the Mormon Jesus:
“If he had never come to Earth he still would have remaind fully divine and fully God. That was something no one else was capable of.”
I beg your pardon sir. The Mormon Holy Ghost is fully divine and fully God and he never came to earth.
The way it works in Mormonism, as I had it revealed to me while I was riding my bike this morning, is that there is a special species of spirits that are born who are fully divine and fully god. These spirits are such because of two factors. First of all one of the Mormon god’s wives procreates this god species while all of the other goddess wives do not. There are a very small number of these fully divine and fully god spirits born to this goddess. She is specially designated for this purpose.
After they are born these special god spirits undergo rigorous training and then they are tested as to how valiant they are. If they pass they become gods, if they don’t, they become special angels.
The Mormon Jesus passed the test and then was assigned an additional challenge and came to earth.
Now I know that this is all true because it was revealed to me. I can’t say it made me feel particularly good, but then the feelings equals truth test isn’t always operational.
I really dig this progressive revelation. I think things and they are so. Given a little time I could probably come up with some Scriptural references to support my revelation.
Now for the Christians who know this better than I do, wasn’t their a line some where in the BoM that got changed that first identified Jesus as the “eternal Father” giving support to Joseph Smith’s original trinitarian views?
The 1830 edition is nothing but Trinitarian views. So much has been changed to try and fit into later Mormon theology. Check out 1 Nephi 11: 18, 1 Nephi 11:21, 1 Nephi 11:32 just to name a few. Compare the 1830 edition against the current edition. One scripture in the BoM that is still in there and explains the Trinity is Mosiah 15:1-5:
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
You can find this passage right on LDS.org! I’m sure Mormons do all sorts of twisting and “yea but….” or whatever, to make it fit their current beliefs, the fact is that Mormonism started out with the Trinity and Joseph Smith dabbled in all sorts of stuff and came out with some pretty bizarre things. How any honest Mormon can look at these blatant changes to Joseph Smith’s BoM and not see the deception is beyond me!
How could Jesus have prayed to himself in the garden and also on the Cross? How could he pray to himself?
I have heard this question many, many times my entire life. It is supposed to be proof that the Holy Trinity is false. Mormons need to look at Mosiah 15:5. It’s right there in their own scriptures.
5 AND THUS THE FLESH BECOMING SUBJECT TO THE SPIRIT, OR THE SON TO THE FATHER, BEING ONE GOD, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Who God is, His nature, is the fundamental question a Mormon has to answer.
It’s important that a Mormon not take the word of the SLC branch of Mormonism’s word for who God is. For the seeker after God the best place to start is in the Bible. The NT answers the question as to who Jesus is.
I can guarantee you that the NT doesn’t reveal that Jesus is the spirit off-spring of a god who used to be a man and one of his many wives. At the inception of Mormonism, not even Joseph Smith believed that.
The problem with false prophets is that they conjure up all sorts of aberrant notions and then sell them on the basis of having received “special” revelation. Track the progression of Mormon thought regarding the nature of God and it can be seen that these ideas keep getting nudged further off of plumb until the foundation is tilted way off kilter.
When Joseph Smith met his demise Mormonism split into a couple of distinct groups. For a comparison go and look at what the Community of Christ and the Church of Christ teach regarding the doctrine of the nature of God.
The Community of Christ, for example, says that they “affirm the Trinity” (http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faith-beliefs.asp). The reason I bring this up is because that reflects the original belief of the Mormon church as founded.
Somebody threw a rod someplace as the Mormon church headed down the road to eventual spiritual destruction.
Tracing the affirmation of the first century church as to the nature of God and specifically Jesus Christ reveals that Mormonism, SLC style, does not reflect who the first century Church said God is.
Kate, Mormon leaders seemed confused on the topic of prayer and Jesus . They need to explain
why they are in the dark about how a authentic relationship with Jesus will involve prayer TO
HIM . Until they can get aligned with what the Bible teaches about this , there is no need to listen
to silly statements like the one you mentioned : ” did Jesus pray to Himself ” etc.
These men claim to be personally supervised by Jesus Himself in their gospel teachings ,
yet what they teach on this issue is not consistent with Jesus’ original apostles . That would
logically tell us that these modern-day apostles are not hearing from Jesus at all , they teach their
own ideas and then package them as “gospel truth ” . The Mormon people deserve spiritual
guides that are more reliable . An authentic relationship with the Lord Jesus awaits those
Mormons who will dismiss their apostles in favor of listening to those Jesus actually directed ,
they can be found in the New Testament .
Falcon , you summed it up well as to why we can’t place much confidence in Mormon leaders
to offer consistently accurate spiritual truth about God given their track record since 1830 .
The Trinity ? Brigham Young revealed thru the power Holy Ghost that one of the most sacred
teachings of the Temple was that the three Gods directly involved in creating this earth were :
Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael. That’s some trinity . It becomes even more bizarre when we
notice that he also stated : ” take up the Bible, COMPARE the religion of the Latter Day Saints
with it , and see if it will stand the test .
Sounds like the apostle Peter was thinking of future prophets like Mr. Young : 2 Peter 2:1
The Mormon people are decent good people who have been detoured by their apostles into
embracing a imitation gospel , a gospel that is rendered powerless to save because it’s
promulgated by false apostles . These men may look and act nice but they fail the crucial test
God laid down for any future teachers—Gal.1:8 ; 2Cor 11:4 . Mormons need to hear the
great news that a authentic, saving relationship with Jesus Christ is available without these men !
Jesus is still mighty to save apart from the claims of Mormonism’s ” modern day apostles” .
I forgot we’ve been down this road with you before regarding the nature of God.
If I remember right, you don’t believe in the Mormon heavenly mother. I found that very interesting at the time of the discussion for a couple of reasons. One had to do with belonging to a religion in which you don’t believe in the most fundamental of doctrines.
Secondly, I think you took great offense because I suggested that perhaps you were perpetrating fraud on your wife since Mormon wives have the hope of being resurrected by their husbands and becoming goddesses, ruling their own planetary system together and procreating spirit off spring into eternity.
I believe your wife even posted a couple of times. I remember her saying that all that was important to her was being with you for eternity; a very romantic notion I might add.
The bottom line, is that people can believe whatever they want to but what I want to know is what is that belief system based on? Christians use the Bible for their guidance regarding who God is. Mormons are depending heavily on revelation from the Mormon god who, they believe, is in direct contact with the men they call prophets.
As we point out here continually, these Mormon prophets have a fairly miserable track record when it comes to the prophetic. The Bible is sort of an appendage for Mormons since Brigham Young contended that what he preached was scripture. This from a man who modern day Mormons have decided was not really up to speed with his doctrinal utterances.
Bottom line is that the only reliable revelation and mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ. Seeing Him for less than He is would not be pleasing to God. He is the qualified Savior because He is God incarnate.
Falcon, there’s getting to be more LDS like TjayT the last few years it seems. The Mormon
church is facing a crucial time as many of their “unique” doctrines are being questioned by
many rank and file LDS, but do to the culture that is Mormonism it is extremely difficult for
some Mormons to walk away from friends and possibly even employment , so they stay but pick
choose what the want to believe with Mormon doctrine , even if it includes basic fundamental
doctrine ( like Heavenly Mother ) . Mormon leaders have warned against this type of behavior.
For Mormons who have chosen to stay in their church and keep sustaining their apostles but
yet behind the scenes continue to doubt or reject fundamental beliefs taught by these men , it
makes it difficult to dialogue with them about Mormonism . What we’ve learned about TjayT
as a person , I find him a great guy I would’nt mind at all being his neighbor etc. But I can’t
take Mormonism seriously enough to become a Mormon because of his “rebel” style . I know
what Mormon leaders have taught about God ( Father and Mother and Son ) and I know
that they , not Mormons like TjayT , are the authority who defines Mormon doctrine .
I pray that he will find a small christian church where he can learn about a complete
relationship with Jesus and come to worship the One True God and experience salvation by
God’s grace because of Jesus ‘ righteousness credited to him , instead of following a gospel from
a powerful hierarchy of false apostles in S.L.C.
I guess I’d be called a lone wolf Christian because there are doctrines of various denominations that I can ignore. I’ve posted the very basic doctrines that would put someone in the Christian family and not the distant cousin category.
These deal with the nature of God, the inspiration of Scripture, Jesus Virgin birth, the blood atonement, salvation by grace apart from works, the second coming of Jesus and the final judgement.
Various Christian groups may have a tweek here or there with these basic doctrines but they would be considered to be within the normal range…….not more than two standard deviations from the norm.
I enjoy the freedom I have in Christ and stick close to the Bible for my guidance. Does God “reveal” things to me? Yes, certainly He does. But I know how to test those “revelations” by the standard of Scripture.
I know there are Catholics who don’t hold real strongly to some of the teachings of the religion they call home, but they coexist within the general framework. I don’t know how Mormons pull this off though, especially with something as fundamental as the nature of God. There are so many Mormon sects that I would think these independent Mormons could find a home some where. Perhaps they should look to the “New Order Mormons” for a transition.
I found this on a blog. The title was 10 Questions No Latter Day Saint Should Ever Ask and 10 Reasons They Should Never Ask Them”.
The summary is heart breaking. At least I think it is.
“Unfortunately for me, the price is too high. God forgive me for living the lie, but I love my family more than I hate the lie. The Church has my wife and children, and there is nothing I can do about it. I love my wife and children more than I love anything – more than I love truth, more than I love freedom, more than I love my time and money, more than I love my integrity, more than I love my conscience, more than I love my own soul. I just hope God is a lot more forgiving and compassionate than the Church makes Him out to be.
God have mercy on the man who is trapped in the lie.”
I guess if I could council this man, I’d tell him that God certainly hasn’t forsaken him and indeed, he can have a relationship with Jesus right where he is. Could someone who belongs to a religion that isn’t even a distant cousin of Christianity come to Jesus in faith, get born again (saved), and maintain his present membership in the Mormon church?
I think I’d counsel him to “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will make straight your path.”
God is in the miracle business. Drawing closer to the Lord Jesus and being the husband and father that God wants him to be, I believe, will be rewarded.
Falcon, my heart goes out people like this gentleman , how sad. This type of scenario is not
uncommon with those who join autocratic organizations like the Mormon church. My wife
and I were involved with ministering to people just such as this fellow who were connected to
a religion very similar to Mormonism , they had one prophet who alone was the mouthpiece of
God on earth, God supposedly restored His long lost truths thru this prophet, to doubt that the
prophet was called of God to lead was to invite God’s anger ; to leave the organization was
to forfeit your salvation etc etc , so fear plays a significant role in the lives of people in such
organizations . We had a support group for those just like this fellow , and others connected
to this particular religion. It goes without saying that even though a person may be out of the
organization this does’nt mean they are spiritually free in Jesus — they have to get the
organization (beliefs) out of them , that takes time . It’s not surprising to see groups like
New Order Mormons pop up as this is inevitable given how the Mormon church is practically
a culture of it’s own , family, friends , employment? are difficult to walk away from once you
realize that your leaders are not hearing from God to the degree they claim etc. What’s sad
is that groups like this seem to be putting a bandaid on a serious wound . But this is a very
difficult situation with some Mormons so I can’t judge their hearts .May one day they be
completely free from MormonISM