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I love it, love it, love it.
LOL! I believe the children these days call that a WIN!
You teach that Jesus has always been God and that neither of them can change.
By your logic, God cannot be God because when He was on the earth as Jesus He changed from a baby to a child to an adult. Jesus also changed when He died and was reborn. Jesus changed as he grew and since you say He is one with God then by your own logic Jesus cannot be God and that also means that God cannot be God because They have changed.
parkman,
Here’s something that might help you. Read the Bible! I know you’d much rather depend on revelation for your information than God’s Word but you never know. You might actually learn something.
With the thought process you are displaying here, I can see why you’re a Mormon.
Hi Parkman,
You have an excellent point. Did Jesus change his divine attributes? As a man Jesus grew. As God He never changed neither can He change.
God never changes, he never was formed and no true God after him will be formed (Is.43:10)”And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.” Does God change? He talks about his nature as being God. He always was God, and He always will be. Because Jesus who is God became man, this doesn’t change the nature of God. Moroni 8:18 agrees with this, and so does Psalm 102:7. He(God the father or God the Son) can never start off as a man and progress into Godhood. He always and always eternally will be God.(Is.44:6;45:5-6;46:9;)
So, when Jesus was on earth, he continued to still be God, his nature didn’t change (John 3:13)”And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which >>is<< in heaven." On earth, he still was omnipresent and was with God(the father). Jesus' nature(Rom.1:20) refers to as "his eternal power and Godhead". The Greek word for Godhead is "θειότης" which is divinity or divine nature. The Godhead here isn't the council of God(s) as in LDS understanding. The Greek word means the attribute/character/nature of God. "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."(Acts 17:29) Here the KJV translates the words "θεῖον εἶναι ὅμοιον" as Godhead, but actually refers to the divine nature. The nature of God will never change. Mor. 8:18!
[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/2z5vyp2.jpg[/IMG]
Oops! Mor. 8:18
RikkiJ , welcome. You summed it up well. The Mormon people are a good decent people
who have been detoured by their leaders into embracing false doctrine about God and Jesus.
What the Mormon people were fed as spiritual truth by their leaders , who proudly proclaimed
to be instructing them on getting to know who their God was , has been an unstable pattern
ever since they were allegedly commissioned by God to restore this vital knowledge.
The Mormon people deserve better. May God help them to exchange their prophets/apostles
for the ones who can give them what they are longing for —- spiritual truth about God leading
to a relationship with Him that results in receiving eternal life . The Bible is the wholesome place
where this truth can be found.
@ RikkiJ
You sound like the Apologists over at FAIR. You are teaching Mormon doctrine.
“The term “unchangeable God” is not referencing a physical state. This can be shown from similar terms from the Bible about Jesus. Jesus is referred to as “the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). Yet we learn from the scriptures that Jesus “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”(Luke 2:52) here is certainly a change in condition; here is succession of time with God, a before and after; here is being and becoming; for whereas, He was a spirit, He became man; and in becoming man, He passed through all the phases in life from infancy to manhood. It is significant also that it was not until Jesus had arisen from the tomb and stood in the presence of His disciples, glorified personage, body and spirit united, that He exclaimed, “all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth.” (Matthew 28:18) If “given”, there must have been a time when He did not possess all power in heaven and in earth; and hence, a change from possessing some power to the condition of possessing “all power”. So this term is not meant to mean His physical condition.”
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Unchanging
Parkman, it’s apparent that you would rather draw our attention to Mormon apologetic sites
for your responses than to show us in context where the Bible teaches the same things about
as Mormon leaders do, based on your own Bible study. Joseph Smith and those who he mentored
to carry on after him were very articulate in defining then defending their doctrine of God , and
yet in the Bible we find no such teaching . I have to believe therefore that Mormon leaders
have created many of their doctrines about God from other than the Bible. This seems to be
the case since according to a Mormon apostle the Mormon version of the gospel of Jesus
could not be known by studying the Bible alone [ A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by
LeGrand Richards, p.40 ]. So I guess the same applies to the Mormon description of God ?
This is an unfortunate position to take , and I would hope that all Mormons would take the
time from their busy schedules to study the Bible to see what it teaches about God and then
compare that with what their leaders have taught about God . Then if there is a variance may
they ask themselves why .
@ Parkman Thank you for pointing that out. Please allow me to answer you with some Bible verses. Jesus possessed all power from the beginning. On earth, he put suppressed the power that was his, but instead put himself under submission to God to show us the way. Biblical proof? “And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases.” Luke 9:1. He had all power over demons and gave others power well before all authority was given in Matt. 28:18. “Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels” (Matt.26:53). Once again, he chooses to reveal at any time he had access to power from above.
Further, Jesus describes his m.o: “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again” (John 10:18) He is talking about his life – this includes his power, incarnation – everything. He gave everything up willingly, but at any time he could have access to what he put aside simply by choice. Again: “Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days >>I<< will raise it up.” John 2:19 – The emphasis here is on Jesus' ability raise himself up. No man can raise himself from the dead, only God can.
Let's go to Colossians:(2:9,10): "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority." He was, is and will be completely God. Back to John, while on earth (cont'd)
@Parkman (cont’d) he specifically stated that He was also in heaven: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”(3:13). Jesus always had access to his omnipotence, his omniscience and his omnipresence. He chose not to use it and be under submission to God, to demonstrate an example for us to follow. More: “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.”(John 3:35). All things have already been given (past tense). In other words, Jesus had all authority. He already had all power. Yet, he submitted himself to his Father as an example.
“Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,”- Here we see we should follow Jesus’ example. Only Jesus existed in and as God’s form(c.f. John 1:1,2 – no one else did) “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Jesus chose to humble himself, he never was not God. Are these exceptions in the Bible? Not so.
“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.”(Jude 1:25) The only God who has all authority before all time, now and forever. Jude identifies the only God as our Savior(Jesus Christ).
Jesus had all power and authority(past, present, future). (cont’d)
Rikki, Mike:
Here’s the problem and I think Mike pointed it out at the beginning of his last post. Parkman is putting all his faith and confidence in the LDS church and its leadership. The catch phrases for Mormons are: “Trust you’re leaders. They will never lead you astray.” And, “When the leaders speak, the thinking has been done.”
Both of you have presented very logical and documented posts. The problem is that Parkman, and Mormons like him, can’t process what you’ve written; as good as it is.
When a Mormon reaches that questioning phase (our friend Jack G. calls it the “contemplative” stage) then they are ready to consider that just maybe the LDS church isn’t on track.
Until they reach that stage, they are emotionally wedded to the LDS machine. These folks have bought the program and drank the Kool Aide. They believe in Joseph Smith’s claims of supernatural visions and appearances and think that he and subsequent “prophets” are hearing from God. They believe in the priesthood and the temple ordinances as sacred. They cling to their undergarments for validation that they are connected to something very spiritual.
So for the lurkers, those who are seeing that things just don’t quite add-up in the Mormon program, you’re posts will be excellent.
For Parkman, it’s just a case of clinging to what he so fervently believes despite the evidence that it’s all a scam.
It’s tough to give it up!
@Parkman (cont’d 2) “And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” Once again, the Apostle John through the Holy Spirit’s inspiration writes that the Son of God is true God.(not has become)
If this is true, at any time if Jesus couldn’t access his power by his own free will, he would cease to be God. As a man he grew. But as God he didn’t change and will never change. All authority had already been given.
Why does it then say, all authority has been given in Matt.28:18? It is just a statement of authority. It is like saying since all authority is given to me, therefore now go and do all these things. This is why the disciples questioned the authority of the other ministers:(Luke 9:49), since they felt that these people who drove out demons didn’t have authority. But Jesus had already given authority to those at that time.
Therefore, only God (omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient) can willingly place his power under submission to another person of the Trinity. And only God can choose what to do with his Godly powers, whether to use them or not.
Thank you for an awesome question.
Mike R, thanks for the welcome. I agree with you: those who attend LDS wards, temples are awesome people. At the same time, it is sad that there’s a great divide from what the Bible teaches and what they have received as truth.
Moroni 8:18
“18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
This is in the BoM. When did Mormons stop believing this and start believing this:
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…
“It is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple…
“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you…”2
Why would God have Joseph Smith put Moroni 8:18 into the BoM and then 14 years later give him a revelation to show Him as changeable? Was God playing a joke? How can someone believe the BoM to be the word of God and also believe the King Follett discourse? They contradict one another. What about this?
numbers 23:19
1 Corinthians 14:33
God is not a God of Confusion. So Mormons, please tell me how you make these two versions of the LDS god fit together in your mind….
Falcon, you’re correct, Parkman unfortunately is trusting in his prophets /apostles to be the
go to guys who will furnish the correct meaning of the scriptures , rather than testing them by
the Bible ( and even the BofM in many cases) . False prophets of these last (latter) days would
love to subordinate the Biblical prophets/apostles under their new teachings , this makes it
easier for them to introduce ( 2Pt 2:1= introduce ) their new doctrines . Here we are today ,
nearly 2000 years after Jesus established His church and sent His apostles out with the salvation
message and with the warning from Him that in the latter days there would be many false
prophets , and still people are spiritually seduced , convinced, that the Biblical apostles did’nt
get the right or enough truth out in their missionary travels about who God is , or who Jesus is,
or what all is necessary to be reconciled, forgiven and receive eternal life from God. Incredible !
Stop and think about Brigham Young . He served as a Mormon missionary in 1832. He preached
the saving truths about God and salvation according to his scriptures ( predominately the Bible
but augmented with the BofM ) . Thus he testified that the true Lord God Almighty was so
Majestic that He was indeed God from all eternity —Ps 90:2 ; Moroni 8:18; Mosiah 3:5. To teach
otherwise was to promote false doctrine . Yet a few years later the real truth about God was
changed, now Mormons started to testify that He was a common married man who had worked
His way up to becoming the Lord God Almighty . [cont]
cont.
In the early 1840’s Mormon missionaries started to teach differently about God . What they
had taught as spiritual truth from their leaders about God now was revised because
it was now testified that what everyone had believed about God being God from all
eternity was wrong ! Joseph Smith had revealed that this belief was incorrect , people had
” imagined and supposed” this to be true but it was’nt . Joseph claimed God chose him to
clear up this long held false teaching. In 1842 the official church publication , Millennial
Star ( v.2 p.184 ) proved the new doctrine about God the Father being a man by interpreting
this from O.T.verses that talked about God having a nose, ears, eye, hands, face–Ex 33:22
etc. etc. were cited as proof and backed up with personal testimony so people
could have confidence in their leaders guidance in scriptural matters. The Star said
after listing these Biblical verses : ” The foregoing abundantly show that the Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ had both body and parts , to say nothing of Jesus Christ…”
But the real reason that the truth of God had to be discarded by Mormon leaders is that once
Joseph Smith thought that he could become a God then that would necessitate lowering
God uniqueness , so instead of us imagining and supposing that God was always God
the new “truth “was that He is only a “exalted ” human, one of many. So other Mormons added
God was married and worshiped by His children; this same future position Mormon males
are told can also be theirs .That’s why the change.
Mike,
What happened is that Joseph Smith threw a rod!
Even though he penned his BoM to “supplement” the Bible, this guy never met a strange idea that he didn’t like. I think it is all connected through his practice of folk magic and his ideas regarding the Indians. Actually the idea that the Indians were a lost tribe of Israel was an idea floating around in the environment in Smith’s time. Smith was just a real creative guy which went along, also, with the religious entrepreneur-ship that was red hot in Smith’s area. Just take a look at all of the religious experimentation that came about in what was known as the “burnt over area” of Smith’s youth.
Smith caught a wave and he rode it. When he started to get his full mojo working, people left his movement. He is today viewed as a fallen prophet. The website for the Church of Christ says the following:
“Some members of the Church were confused because they knew the truth of the Gospel; but confused by the new doctrines introduced by ministers they trusted, that were not found in the Bible or Book of Mormon. These doctrines included the consolidation of power into the hands of one man as “Prophet” (not unlike the Pope) the offices of a High Priest and a First Presidency, the practice of baptism for the dead, the belief in a changeable God and the mysticism of Free Masonry. The name of the Church had even been changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/about.html
There’s more interesting information on the website but the point is that the “restoration”, in the opinion of some Mormons, needed to be restored. Too bad these folks just don’t go back to the Bible and the writings of the church Fathers.
It’s good to get some perspective. What I find interesting is that the FLDS folks thing they have the real restoration as they continue to follow Brigham Young with his Adam-god doctrine and of course polygamy. The Church of Christ think they have the restoration because they follow the “original” revelation circa 1830. Then we have the SLC bunch who also claim the real deal revelation and restoration.
So why do people follow any of this? First of all they buy the lie that there was a great falling away after the death of the original apostles. Without that lie none of this survives.
So the Church of Christ writes:
“In the several conferences conducted during the years 1857, 1858, and 1859, these congregations spoke out strongly against many of the errors that had previously entered into the Church. They were adamantly opposed to 1) polygamy, 2) baptism for the dead, 3) lineal priesthood (a presidency passed from father to son) 4) celestial marriage and other false doctrines. In the conference of 1860, this group again took the name of the Church of Christ, and after receiving a revelation from God in 1864, returned to Independence, Missouri in 1867, where it’s headquarters has remained ever since.
Throughout the years since the death of Joseph Smith, Jr., the Church of Christ has been the only church that has made a consistent effort to follow, point by point, the original organization and doctrine which was instituted by Jesus Christ in the ancient New Testament church and restored by God in 1830………….we do not see ourselves as a faction of the original; we are the remnant of that original Church restored by the power, and according to the prophecy of God.”
There is one revelation and that is in Jesus Christ. It was given once!
The really sad thing about all this is that the Mormon people , a good, decent people striving
to serve God but who have been detoured by their prophets into embracing an imitation gospel.
Thus we see why Jesus said to Beware of false prophets in the latter days. The issue this thread
addresses is but one example of why LDS can’t afford to follow Mormon leaders. They claim that
LDS must embrace the truths of the “restored ” gospel in order to be accepted by God and the
blessings that a right relationship with Him will bring , yet when we examine these restored
truths we find that many of them are’nt restored . The Mormon gospel is not Jesus’ gospel
restored but rather in many ways it is Jesus’ gospel revised or replaced. In fact what Mormon
apostles taught as spiritual truth about God /Jesus has not only revised what Jesus’ original
apostles taught in significant areas but these “modern-day” apostles have revised even their
own gospel revisions! This unstable record of “gospel preaching ” by these men has
allowed many LDS to seriously question their claims , claims that have promised to bring clarity
to the meaning of scriptures, claims of being the one source for pure unpolluted guidance in
spiritual truth and to never teach or condone false teachings to their flock . In the last several
years there has been a sizable number of LDS who have ceased activity in their church or left.
They have finally seen through the veiled threats by their leaders towards those who question or
reject their ” divine counsel” on spiritual matters. The Bible also talks about not fearing false
prophets–Deut.18:22. LDS : Matt 11:28
Moroni 8:18 is accurate, but the rest of that chapter is garbage. According to Moroni 8 infant baptism is an evil abomination. And it is so transparent that Joseph Smith just made this all up to solve a question between Christians. It so unbelievable it’s actually laughable – oh, here’s the missing doctrinal pronouncements from God outlining age of accountability and how those who practice infant baptism are the spawn of hell. It reveals the motives of “prophet” Joseph Smith early in his career as a religious entrepreneur – it is also apparent that he had no understanding of the theology of infant baptism. I just can’t get over the juvenile machinations of Joseph Smith when reading this chapter – it is really quite amusing, but then my heart grows sad that so many are lead astray by his cunning deceptive work. So according to Joseph Smith, baptism for children is evil, but teaching that God was once a man and ascended to His God status through temple works is nothing to worry about (although it contradicts the BOM) – this makes no sense. Thank the Lord that He has revealed His grace and mercy – the truth of forgiveness through Jesus to all who believe – forgiveness through the cross, free and complete in Him.
@Kate I once spoke to an LDS missionary who said that the unchangeability of God is from the current eternity. That he evolved into Godhood and Mor.8:18 is about his current state, rather than before his Godhood.
There’s a simple reason why this logic doesn’t work. Eternity has no measure and is infinite, there’s no beginning and no end and no limit.
RikkiJ.
Well that’s just maddening 🙂 I guess the phrase “from all eternity to all eternity” doesn’t really mean “from all eternity to all eternity.” Mormons have a way of cherry picking and twisting any verse to suit their needs. When I was LDS (40 years) that phrase meant no beginning and no end. Why this LDS missionary said “current” eternity is beyond me. How many eternities are there? If we use this logic then LDS who are married for time and all eternity could actually mean only for the “current eternity.” Does that mean there will be other eternities later on that they won’t be married for? I don’t believe for one second that Moroni 8:18 was meant this way when it was written. Joseph Smith believed in and practiced the Holy Trinity when the BoM was written. It wasn’t until 14 years later when he came out with the King Follett discourse. It is interesting to see how the different sects of Mormonism think. It’s also interesting to research who left the church and spoke out against Joseph Smith before he died. These men were once leaders, there has to be something to that.
,Oh brother! There is Mormon “eternity” now. The contortions are unreal. And think this satisfies Mormons.
Falcon said
Falcon, as if thats not bad enough, how about this. I can give a list of questions asked of mormons on this blog over the years, or list things Mormons claim are “Scripture” yet these questions have never been answered, the mormons go silent and then leave, or they are asked to back up what they said, and they never do.
My list could fill all 6 posts for the day with names of mormons dodging questions, dodging posting evidence for what they said, and it would start with are newbie Mr parkman.
@Falcon, would be interested in finding out what your questions are. I do feel that Mr. Parkman is an honest person trying to defend his faith, without realizing the wider ramifications of what the Bible says.
@Kate, I asked a friend of mine who is currently an LDS Church member. He said that the “gods” or “theology of godhood” preceded the King Follett discourse. He referred to:
“Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God”(D&C76:58)
His argument was that this was written in February, 1832. This ‘theology’ preceded the King Follett discourse and therefore was alluded to beforehand. My understanding is that he wrote about it, but no mention was made of evolution to Godhood. However, I don’t mind hearing what you have to say about it. Thanks again.
@ RikkiJ
Thank you for the Bible verses. Since you say the teachers and messengers I trust to be from God are false, I will ask you this question. Who are your teachers that taught you the meaning of the words in the Bible, and why do you trust them to be true teachers from God?
@ falcon
I am by no means a “kool aid drinking” follower of Jesus Christ. My personal relationship with Jesus has only grown stronger since joining the LDS Church. And yes, I was active in my old church before joining the LDS Church. And yes, I questioned the teachings of my old Church, along with the teachings of many other churches before I found that most Mormons really do like questioning their own Church in order to get their own personal testimony of Jesus (that would be their own witness of Christ in your language). As a matter of fact, a GA I ran into, while I was investigating, told me that I should ask questions.
You might say that Joseph Smith through a rod…………… an Iron Rod. ;>)
http://www.lds.org/churchmusic/detailmusicPlayer/index.html?searchlanguage=1&searchcollection=1&searchseqstart=274&searchsubseqstart= &searchseqend=274&searchsubseqend=ZZZ
@ Kate
Man has more than one definition of what eternity means, why is yours the best choice for us Bible believers?
e•ter•ni•ty [ih-tur-ni-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural e•ter•ni•ties.
1. infinite time; duration without beginning or end.
2. eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God.
3. Theology . the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person’s death.
4. an endless or seemingly endless period of time: We had to wait an eternity for the check to arrive.
5. eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternity
Mormonism teaches that a sign of the great apostasy is that men relied on their own wisdom
to interpret the scriptures, and the result was that false ideas were taught as truth . But Mormon
leaders advertise to have the remedy for that behavior : ” We testify also that there is, since
1830, when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized ….a prophet ,
recognized of God and his people , who will continue to interpret the mind and will of the Lord.”
[ Pres. Spencer Kimball Ensign May 1977 p.78 ] . One benefit of this exclusive authority/ability
by Mormon leadership to reveal God’s mind is appropriately enough that of a correct
interpretation of the meaning of scripture, especially as relates to who God is and the person of
Jesus Christ . This is vital because an inaccurate interpretation of the scriptural testimony about
about God or Jesus Christ can lead spiritual damage on the souls of men : ” There is no
salvation in false doctrine, no redeeming power in misunderstandings about Jesus Christ , His
Divinity, nor His mission….it is critical to know and have a correct understanding of the doctrine
of Christ in order to achieve eternal life…” [ W. Jeffery Marsh, Church News 1-3-2004 ].
He goes on say that the correct doctrine of Christ has been restored to the world in these
latter days through the Book of Mormon. Mormon leaders have also spoke on this theme of
new/restored truths by stating that there are some new truths just for this last dispensation
that God has revealed thru them , and that because these new truths or interpretations of
scripture being from “living prophets ” that would render them
cont.
above the dead prophets contributions —the Bible, Book of Mormon etc. What are these new
teachings , or interpretations of the written word as contained in the Bible , or even the Book
of Mormon concerning the person of Christ ? What have Mormon leaders since 1830 taught
about Jesus ? In agreement with the dead prophets of the past recorded in the Bible , or is it
new light , newly revealed truths exclusively for this dispensation from these men who claim
to offer the latest interpreting of the mind of the Lord on spiritual matters for us all ?
Well what about Jesus , who is He ? The Bible reveals that He is Jehovah , the Lord God
Almighty , He is like no other god —Isa 40:18,25-28 ; 42:8; 43:10-13; 46:5,9 ; Jer 10:10.
The Book of Mormon records similar testimony about God / Jesus. The prophets of the
Mormon church have taught that in fact Jesus is Jehovah the One true God of the Old
Testament. That sounds right but how have the “modern -day” prophets/apostles
taught about this Jehovah ? What has been their interpretation of Him , the new truths
just for this last dispensation they claim to have provided as the ” living ” prophets ? We
know how Isaiah and other prophets described their God , Jehovah , let’s examine
how Mormon leaders have described Him : Jehovah /Jesus was born in heaven as the first
spirit baby born to His parents —God the Father and God the Mother. As a child He learned His
schooling quickly and as a result He progressed to become a God while still in heaven
cont
and while He had enjoyed growing up to maturity in His heavenly home with Lucifer and
His other brothers and sisters , He learned so well and became strong and knowledgeable as
to play the chief role of Creator of this earth . Mormon prophet Brigham Young taught as one
of those new truths for this last dispensation which Mormon leaders have claimed to reveal that
Jesus was a member of the Trinity of creation Gods for this earth —Elohim , Jehovah , and
Michael. This truth was taught in the most sacred place to Mormons —their temple . We can
see from all these teachings about Jehovah/Jesus that we’re talking about a Jesus different
from that of Biblical prophets/apostles , or even Book of Mormon prophets. This evaluation
of Mormon leaders teachings about Jesus casts a very clear verdict , namely that they have
only succumbed to the very behavior that they have accused those men who facilitated the
apostasy of i.e. they have relied on their own wisdom to interpret the scriptures .
Neither have they reliably ” interpreted the mind and will of the Lord ” on this doctrine.
The Apostle Paul and Peter warned about those prophets who would seek to alter/revise
their teaching concerning Jesus by introducing new teachings –2Pt 2:1 ; 2Cor 11:4 ; Gal1:8 ,
this is sound advice and applicable for us today . Far from needing any new “truths”
about Jesus from any latter day prophets/apostles , we can be assured that what
the apostles in the Bible taught is sufficient to know about Jesus unto salvation–Jn 17:3
RikkiJ
I read that whole chapter and saying “they are gods, even the sons of god” in no way means that God is a changeable being. As I said, Mormons take a few words or a verse and twist it to fit whatever they want. If your friend truly believes in the D&C then please ask him/her to explain verse one of that same chapter.
1 Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.
The Lord (Jesus) is God! This is Trinitarian. Today’s LDS have absolutely no idea what the D&C or the BoM were when they were written. Beliefs, revelations, and doctrines have been changed, covered up, and whitewashed many times over. Mormons will say that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, I said this myself as a LDS. Mormonism is a modge podge of changeable beliefs! What was believed as revelation years ago is said to be “opinion” now. What is believed and taught now will be considered “opinon” and not from the Mormon god tomorrow. The true God does not change, but Mormonism certainly does!
falcon,
I know! This “current” eternity really threw me for a loop! This is not what I was taught as LDS. I’m wondering if this is a new thing that the LDS church is throwing out there or if it’s just this guy’s opinion. The sad thing is we will never know because the men with the authority to clear it all up don’t have the courage to stand up and do so. They would rather let the members spread confusion. I
@ Mike R
I witness to you that it is the false teachers who you follow that taught you something different than God meant in His teachings in the Bible.
Sorry Parkman but your “witness” is not consistent with the witness of those men who Jesus
chose to teach about Him as recorded in the Bible , so your witness appears to be from your own
spirit rather than the Spirit of Truth–Jn 14:17. I can say this because having chosen to follow
Mormon prophets/ apostles and their teachings about Jesus you have therefore become
detoured by them into embracing their aberrant doctrines . While I have little doubt that your
witness is sincere , so was Brigham Young’s etc . and that just is’nt enough to validate the
teachings of Mormon leaders . The good news though is that you can have a complete
relationship with the Biblical Jesus without the Mormon church . Please consider this.
Parkman, when you said your church encourages people to look into things and think for themselves and a supposed GA backs you on this, I say Bull!
Either your making things up, thats what I believe, or you only talked to one person who said that.
I have had more mormons than I can count come to my home. Every time I pull out LDS books, and say, let look at the facts , let look at the changes, let think for our selves, they always tell me they cannot and leave.
I have even been kicked out of Mormon services for asking questions. I also have issued this challenge for mormons who might not believe me. I will give you my home address and phone number, you can tell me when you want to come to my house, I will set up a time to have MM over the house, I will not tell you who they are or what church they are from, so you cannot talk to them before. After they come over you will see they refuse to think or listen and claim they are not allowed.
Then after that, tell me The LDS church allows free thinking. I also am not the only one who has seen this, Bill Mc has told me, he has had MM over his house, he owns and original copy of the BoM. He offers to show LDS changes from that one to the newest one, the MM leave and refuse to see it.
Parkman said
Let me ask you this parkman, If you believe your prophets are really from God and are teaching truth, why then did JS get all his prophecy’s wrong? Why did he have 9 first vision accounts spanning years?
Why did he claim God told him he would not die until the J.S.T was completed, yet the J.S.T. claims it is not complete? These are only a few of the hundreds of problems, so with that said, how can you trust your prophet?
How do you deal with the fact that BY claimed we can read the Bible as is, and it is good enough and we need no more, yet LDS dont trust the Bible, BY did, but you dont, why?
parkman,
I guess what I’d encourage you to do is go back and read the Church Fathers who were taught by the apostles who walked with Jesus. I must remind you that as Kate has pointed out, when Joseph Smith wrote his first version of the BoM, he held to a traditional Christian view of the nature of God. But as with all things Joseph Smith, he started to drift to the point that he was declared a fallen prophet by many of those who followed him. Additionally, even his real wife Emma and his son didn’t follow Brigham Young but were members of a rival Mormon sect. Smith’s son became the head of this group known today as the Community of Christ. They rejected Nauvoo style Mormonism that was being secretly introduced by Smith. That included baptism for the dead, men to gods and polygamy.
My guess is that when you are asking questions, you’re going to Mormon sources who will tell you what you want to hear. Once you’ve had the burning in the bosom experience, you’ve drank the Kool Aide buddy.
This is a spiritual war and if you prefer to be led by a spirit of deception you will end up with a seared conscience. You’ve rejected the Lord Jesus and embraced the spirit of the anti-Christ. You’ve rejected the gospel for another gospel.
Very christian of you to call me a liar.
When you ask a question, you have to listen to the answer and not just wait so you can ask your next question that helps you think the LDS Church is wrong.
Parkman, Cut the crap with saying, Very christian of you.
Have you read what your old time prophets have said about us? they said Our beliefs are from hell.
Your Scripture says My church is of the devil, your prophet claims God said my beliefs are an abomination.
Then Like I said, your church sends out MM’s, they refuse to look at evidence, they even tell me they are not allowed to, they claim they are not even allowed to get on the internet. How is that being open and honest and looking at the facts?
How come you avoid questions? Dont answer them? Make claims about what the Bible says, but when asked to back them up you cannot? How is that being honest?
Have you not read what Jesus said or did? The things He said and did were harsh, yet when people say, well He can say it because He is God and I cannot, then look to what the apostles said and did.
What if I called down blindness upon the false prophets of Mormonism leading people to hell?
Parkman said
Now your telling jokes, your a funny guy. Many Christians here have asked questions and they are avoided and never answered by the LDS. So How do you figure if I or we ask a question we simply need to wait for answers. Were still waiting for answers. Then I dont think the LDS church is wrong because you guys cannot or do not answer questions, I know they are wrong since all of JS prophecy’s have failed, and The LDS church claims God said things that simply are false. Thats why I fell the LDS church is wrong. Yet your not helping since your not answering and telling me how I am wrong and JS did get it right.
@ Parkman
I think Parkman, that this is an excellent question. First, I want to say that it is what one believes to be truth that may be false. It doesn’t necessarily depend on the teacher. So for example, if someone comes and tells you the penguins can talk Spanish, but this person is someone you trust, most likely you would doubt them. The onus is on the individual to determine whether the teaching is false. A false teacher may be construed that by virtue of his teaching not his identity. So a teacher, whether it be LDS or otherwise(incl. in Christian churches) can be a false teacher if they teach a false gospel.
Scripture confirms: “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed”(Gal.1:8,9). So two things must happen, a false teacher/preacher, and someone receiving the false teaching. This is because a false teacher may preach a false gospel, but anyone can refuse such a teaching.
How do we know a false or true teacher? It must conform to the gospel preached by the early church. The early church distinctly confirms its teachings only through what was recorded in the New Testament(this can be verified through lower criticism). (cont’d)
@ Parkman (cont’d)
Second, a teacher may present a true teaching, but if the listener listens incorrectly/presumably and misunderstands the teaching/preaching, the listener may be believing a false gospel. For example, if someone preaches, “Brethren, please know that without Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved. Turn to him today, repent of your sins and receive eternal life.” Now a listener may go out and say how is it after saying that prayer, I am still mortal? The preacher/teacher may be talking about the promise of eternal life, yet through his statement, the listener misunderstood. So it’s best to understand a teacher/preacher by the volume of his/her work(s), and compare that to scripture.
I would clarify to be sure that it is not your teachers necessarily that are false, but teaching that varies from biblical truth that is the point of identification. Also according to the Bible, evaluating true and false teaching is up to the individual: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”(1John4:1). Here I can observe that the requirement to test for false prophet(s) is left to the reader/individual.
If the teaching conforms to what gospel is delineated in the Bible, then we have a true gospel:”they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so…”(Acts17:11).
So Parkman, I admire and respect you for your beliefs. I hope it’s not rude of me to recommend that you compare what is taught at your church/ward with what the Bible states(on the whole). All the information that I’ve writted in these posts has been researched by me. I tend to check those who speak/talk at my church to see if what they release is true/false.
@ Parkman
If I may, the definitions that you listed about eternity should be the definitions listed in scripture. For example, if I were to write about: “my table”. But I defined the table as a table with only three legs. Then someone else came up with John’s 4 legged-table, this would be a ambiguation of what I had written. Therefore, I would say that its best to use scriptural definitions of eternity to understand its usage(s) in scripture.
. Here ‘everlasting’ is עֹֽלָמִ֑ים which is perpetuity, refers to no beginning and no end. This word means: everlasting/forever/eternity as well as for other uses. Eternity in the Greek and Hebrew mean the same – endless perpetuity.
Hope this helps. Thank you for your excellent question.
@ Kate
I will followup with my friend regarding “gods” – thanks for your feedback.
RikkiJ, I appreciate your comments on the Paul’s warning in Gal. 1:8-9 , you have some great
insight on the relevance of this scripture for today . Hopefully Mormons will come to see that
it is so clear and relevant that it serves as a bright beacon like a lighthouse to steer sincere
people away from false gospels . It serves as a valid way for us to evaluate the teachings of any
prophets , especially in our day. Jesus warned us all of false prophets who will come, particularly
in the latter days so Mormon prophets are to be tested by using Paul’s counsel at Gal.1:8.
This becomes even more pertinent because of the claims of Mormon prophets to be the only
true church of Jesus Christ , the very same church and gospel as existed in New Testament
times. Back then it was difficult for Paul to get his gospel teaching out quickly to everyone , but
we today greatly benefit from his preaching of the gospel of salvation and also his warning on
how to identify a counterfeit gospel and false prophets/apostles. This is what the Mormon
people need to understand , namely, that ever since 1830 there was a test available to
evaluate what their apostles have promoted as being the same gospel of salvation which Paul
taught now” restored” .An examination of the gospel of salvation preached by Mormon leaders
since the time of it’s alleged restoration reveals that it is a imitation of Paul’s since these men
have resorted to mixing their own ideas onto it, but this dilutes the true gospel rendering
it unable to save. Gal1:8 ; 2Jn7-9
So how do Mormons “know” what they “know”? From what I can tell it’s a combination of what someone claiming to be a prophet says was revealed to him and their own personal revelation confirming what the prophet says. This confirmation is most often described as a “burning in the bosom”. It’s an emotional and physical response to thoughts they are thinking. It’s said to be “spiritual” in nature and direct communication from God.
According to what Brigham Young claimed, his sermons, what he said, were as good as any scripture. That’s quite a claim! So what we have is a fellow who claims to be a prophet says he got a message from God, the follower of the prophet feels good about it and what do you know, you have the truth. So what if the new message contradicts previous pronouncements of another prophet, the established scripture of the sect and even the Bible? Well it doesn’t matter because revelation is “progressive” and can change. Besides “knowing” makes it true.
When Brigham Young was sustained as the new Mormon prophet, there were other groups that claimed that their prophet was the real prophet. In fact there have been all sorts of Mormon prophets of various sects claiming to have the “truth” . Jim Spencer, author of “Beyond Mormonism” , got tipped off that something wasn’t quite right when he began to investigate the history of the Mormon church. He couldn’t reconcile all of these Mormon prophets of various sects claiming “truth” about the most basic of doctrines including the nature of God.
The inconsistent nature of Mormon prophets and the total rejection of the original view of the nature of God ought to give even the most fervent follower of Joseph Smith pause.
Parkman,
Please. I was taught in the LDS church that “all eternity to all eternity” means no beginning and no end. It seems to me that Mormons are changing the definition of that phrase to deal with Moroni 8:18. The BoM is supposed to be LDS scripture but Mormons have no problem cherry picking and twisting it too. Mormons are grasping at straws trying to make all of this stuff fit. Good luck with that.
One thing I’ve noticed over the past year being an ex Mormon and being surrounded by Mormons is that Mormons feel entitled just because they are Mormon. They have every right to dis on other religions, to have their leaders say all other religions are an abomination and the Catholic Church is the whore of all the earth, but no one can even ask a question about their religion or they are being persecuted. They believe they alone have the truth. Where does this Mormon truth come from? I was asked by parkman why my definition of eternity is the correct one. How do I know it’s the true definition? I read and study the Bible. I believe in the True and Living Christ who can be found there. Do Mormons believe in this Christ? No. Just turn to their prophet Gordon Hinkley. He believed in “a christ” the one Joseph Smith preached about. Jesus said this would happen Matthew 24:24.
Mormons need to go out, buy a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church and ask God to reveal himself to them. This is all it takes. I promise the Bible is trustworthy and it’s the only place the one true God can be found. Mike says all the time that LDS leaders, although sincere, are not trustworthy guides. It’s true. Why would I follow a man when Jesus has made himself available for me to follow?
Kate, you’re right about the Mormon mind-set . Mormons have an innate need to feel
different, this usually happens with those who submit to autocratic leaders , thus we
see Mormon authorities state that Mormons are the true followers of Christ, that all
other churches constitute the church of the Devil , that the test of a true believer for
these latter -days is that they must confess that Joseph Smith and his successors have
been exclusively appointed by God as His only reliable channel of truth to man , His
mouthpiece etc. The lofty claims by Mormon leaders to be reliably consistent guides
in spiritual truths has served these men well for a long time as rank and file members
rendered their allegiance to them for fear of disappointing God . But the last few
years has seen a sizable herd of rank and file members finally see through their leaders
veiled threats as only a tactic to keep them in line , and these members have become
inactive or left. We need to be ready to greet them and explain that their disillusionment
is normal to experience from following false prophets and that since the Bible has spoken
about the dangers of following false prophets so to it contains the answer to the damage they
can inflict on sincere people who have given so much of themselves to follow them etc.
Parkman,
I notice more of the same from you as in Mormons that have posted here before, You cannot or will not answer questions, or provide us with well thought out reasons why JS got all his prophecy’s wrong and yet that is ok. You still believe he is a true prophet from God.
Someone said they admire and respect you for your beliefs. I think it is sad that they do, but thats their choice. I dont find anyplace in scripture where God admires and respects people for getting things wrong about Him.
I see God punishing Adam and Eve for getting it wrong, even though Eve was deceived, She was still held accountable.
I see Moses being told, strike the rock once, speak to it the second time, Moses struck it twice, God then would not allow Moses to enter the promised land, God did not say, well you misrepresented me, But thats OK, I admire and respect you.
Job and His friend also misrepresented God, and God harshly rebuked them, God again did not say, well it’s ok, I admire and respect you even though you had it all wrong about me.
The religious leaders of Jesus day were wrong about God, Jesus called them a brood of vipers and children of the devil, claiming they lead people to hell. Jesus did not say, Well I admire and respect you guys even though your wrong.
I know you dont care what I think, thats ok, I am here to share the real Jesus with those willing to listen, and point out with hard evidence and facts, why LDS are wrong, and pointing out, LDS never counter with hard facts or evidence. Instead you argue over the meaning of words, like is eternal, really eternal?