How do Mormons keep faith in Mormonism “in a world of confusion”? Mormon Bishop Gérald Caussé (First Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric) counseled Latter-days Saints on this topic in the August 2012 Ensign magazine (26-29). His advice included:
- Seek the Truth Continually
“To those who claim that ‘ye cannot know’ (Alma 30:15), the Lord has answered, ‘Ask, and it shall be given you…’ Founded on study, contemplation, and daily prayer…Studying the word of God protects us from the influence of false doctrines.” - Accept Unanswered Questions
“We must accept living for a time without answers to all of our questions… The Lord…supplies us with the knowledge necessary for our salvation and exaltation… It is up to us to distinguish between questions that are truly essential to our eternal progress and those that result from intellectual curiosity, need for proof, or desire for personal satisfaction.” - Seek the Testimony of the Spirit
“Each of us may experience moments of personal doubts. These doubts are rarely alleviated by the search for rational explanations. …Knowledge of the truth is based on the testimony of the Spirit.” - Seek the Words of Prophets and Apostles
“The strength and truth of the doctrine of Christ, however, rest not upon the debate of experts but upon the sacred testimonies of His chosen disciples. …When we are troubled, our first reflex must be to search the scriptures and the words of the living prophets. Their writings are beacons that cannot deceive us…”
What I see in the above is this: Mormons can know the answers to their questions, but some (i.e., questions that stem from curiosity, intellect, or desire for knowledge) may remain unanswered for the time being. Questions stemming from any personal doubts will not be answered by rational explanations; rather, they will be answered by an uncorroborated “testimony of the Spirit.” After all of this, if Mormons are still troubled by doctrinal questions, they should see what the living prophets say because the living prophets cannot deceive (i.e., express doctrine that isn’t true).
Joseph Smith is no longer living, but when he was, Mormons in that day looked to him for doctrinal truth. His “sacred testimony” about the nature of the God that he called Mormons to worship was this:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! …We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see…he was once a man like us… (King Follet Discourse, Journal of Discourses 6:3)
The living prophet in 1844 told Mormon Church members that God was once a man. By Mormon definition then, this was true doctrine. The God Mormons were led to worship was once a man. Fast-forward to the living prophet in 1997. In a public interview Gordon B. Hinckley was asked by a journalist, “…don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?” The Mormon Prophet responded, “I wouldn’t say that.” Mr. Hinckley continued on to quote the Lorenzo Snow couplet (“As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.”) but concluded, “That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about” (San Francisco Chronicle, Don Lattin, April 13, 1997).
A few months later in another interview Mr. Hinckley was asked, “Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet…about that, God the Father was once a man as we were… Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man?” Mr. Hinckley responded, “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed in a long time in public discourse. I don’t know” (TIME Magazine, David Van Biema, August 4, 1997).
In 1844 Mormons were taught the then-true doctrine that it was the “first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us.” In 1997 the living prophet didn’t know for a certainty the character of God and wouldn’t say God was once a man if he did know. Did one of these living prophets “deceive” their Mormon followers? Did either of them express doctrine that wasn’t true?
The second Mormon Prophet, the living prophet in 1852, also taught the Mormons about the character or nature of the God they were called to worship. Brigham Young said,
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later….When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind…
Again, they [“all Scripturalists”] will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, “it is an immaterial substance!” What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. (Journal of Discourses 1:50-52)
The living prophet in 1852 told Mormons – no, all people – that Adam (of Adam and Eve fame) was our Father and our God, the only God with whom we needed to concern ourselves; our acceptance of this doctrinal truth was to prove our salvation or damnation.
By Mormon definition then (“the words of the living prophets…cannot deceive us”), this was true doctrine. The God Mormons were led to worship in 1852 was Adam, the same “character” who was in the Garden of Eden. Fast-forward to the living prophet in 1976. In a Priesthood session of the October General Conference Spencer W. Kimball said, “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine” (Ensign, “Our Own Liahona,” November, 1976 ).
In 1852 Mormons were taught the then-true doctrine that Adam was the true — and only — God they needed to worship. In 1976 the living prophet taught a new then-true doctrine; namely, that the Adam-God teaching was actually “false doctrine.” Did one of these living prophets “deceive” their Mormon followers? Did either of them express doctrine that wasn’t true?
If Mormons were to read the above information and experience personal doubt, or become troubled by what they’ve learned, what could they do to manage their faith amidst this “world of confusion” — the teachings of Mormonism’s living prophets? Bishop Caussé’s answer is to be content without actually resolving the questions, for their doubts cannot be alleviated by rational explanations. They should seek a comforting feeling and keep their noses to the grindstone.
The Bible’s answer to questions and doubt is different. In Acts 17:11 the Berean believers were praised for their approach:
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
Furthermore, Paul said that the Word of God is “able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus… that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15, 17).
Mormon friends, please don’t stick your heads in the sand. Take your doubts and questions to the Bible, search the scriptures daily, and find God’s truth. It will make you wise for salvation.
I just have one question for Mormon Bishop Gérald Caussé (First Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric) Where is Jesus in ANY of this???
Seek the Words of Prophets and Apostles? When do the living prophets and apostles ever say anything? The reason Mormons are so confused and have so many questions is because past prophets and apostles are so “out there” with their teachings and the living prophets and apostles are silent. Ask your questions and then have a “court of love” called so they can excommunicate you for apostasy. This is why I resigned and left on my own terms. I didn’t deserve to be excommunicated for questioning and deciding through prayer, study and God’s Holy Word that Mormonism isn’t what it claims to be. If I had been excommunicated in this small LDS community the rumors would have been flying that I had committed some great sin, probably an affair or something. That is so damaging to a person’s reputation. I feel bad for ex LDS who have had to endure that. Mormons need to turn to Jesus.
God Bless You Kate! I love your heart for the Lord.
Way to go Kate , you are not alone, I have been sent one of those love letters, I just keep it for past, and move on and feel totally free in my mind and heart, love the coffee here
Some comments on Bishop Causse’ counsel :
1. “Studying the word of God protects us from the influence of false doctrines”.
True , as long as you start with the Bible , but the Mormon people have been detoured by
“modern-day” apostles who have thus influenced them to embrace false doctrine.
2. ” We must accept living for a time without answers to all of our questions …The Lord ….
supplies us with the knowledge necessary for our salvation and exaltation…”
But there are questions , legitimate , common sense questions that LDS deserve answers to
such as , how much do their leaders get paid ? Why can’t they see what’s in the First Pres.
vault or all the historical archives , why the supression ? Why does’nt the leadership
apologize for the way Blacks were denied equal access to Temple “saving ordinances”?
3. ” Knowledge of the truth is based on the testimony of the Spirit.”
So the knowledge about spiritual truths which LDS have received from their leaders
has been validated by an inner witness of the Spirit. ? When ?
Once we have an answer we no longer need faith in that part of God’s truths.
If all questions were answered we would not have to live by faith.
@ Kate
Bishop Gérald Caussé spoke of Jesus in the parts of the article that was not referenced.
—————————————
I was born in southwestern France “of goodly parents” (1 Nephi 1:1) who, from the time I was young, helped me develop faith in Jesus Christ and a testimony of the restored gospel. At school, on the other hand, many of my professors expressed doubts about and even hostility toward any religious belief. On many occasions I heard the teachings of Korihor from those who were belittling my beliefs:
“Behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers. How do ye know of their surety?
“… Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see” (Alma 30:14–15).
http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/08/keeping-the-faith-in-a-world-of-confusion?lang=eng
“faith in Jesus Christ and a testimony of the restored gospel”
parkman,
Who is Jesus? That quote you gave assumed that the professors knew who Jesus is. They were probably referencing the Biblical Jesus not the Jesus created by Joseph Smith. Mormons aren’t up-front with people concerning their doctrine of the nature of God. Most atheists and even Christians aren’t aware of the striking differences between the Biblical Jesus and the Mormon Jesus. Mormons do everything they can to hide the difference and even lie about it when asked directly.
If you want eternal life, you need to have faith in the Jesus who was revealed in God’s Holy Word, the Bible.
The gospel message of Mormonism does not appear in the Bible. It doesn’t even appear in the writings of the heretics during the first four hundred years of Church history. Jesus constantly referenced the Scriptures as pointing to who He was. The apostle Paul, especially when he was addressing Jews, pointed them to the Scriptures proving who Jesus is.
Mormons function on the basis of “revelation”. That’s why they will accept anything their leaders present even when it entirely contradicts past “revelation” by past “prophets”.
I need to remind you of all of the Mormon sects, especially the Church of Christ, the Community of Christ and the FLDS sects. The first two reject Nauvoo Mormonism while the latter group rejects the “progressive” revelation that eliminated the past revelations dealing with Adam-god and polygamy. What good is Mormon revelation?
The only standard by which “revelation” can be measured is by the Bible. If someone’s personal revelation doesn’t line-up with the Gospel as it was once and for all given, they are false prophets and need to be rejected.
For all the good the Mormon prophets do you, you may as well cook-up some personal revelation and run your own program.
John Dehlin of “Mormon Stories” talks about what happens when Mormons run into information that’s inconsistent with what they thought was true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs
Mormons really have a problem when they begin to study the history of Mormonism and it throws cold water on their testimony. They generally start out by denying that the information is true. After they figure out that the information is true, then they have to find a way to rationalize it. Most often that includes coming up with explanations that are so far-fetched that the only ones who would accept them are fellow Mormons. As long as these folks mingle with and reinforce each other, everything is fine. The problem comes when they try to sell their nonsense to non or former Mormons.
Those of us who don’t have an emotional stake in Mormonism, can look at the available evidence with a sort of cold detachment. There’s a reason why Mormon Missionaries try to stir-up the emotions of prospects. It’s to get the prospect to suspend credulity and accept the transference of the MM own emotions.
This past week I had the opportunity to visit a Mormon historical site and receive a tour by a MM. In a way it wasn’t fair because I knew what was going on and could spot the techniques with ease. I didn’t challenge the MM because I didn’t think it was the proper setting. You know what the Book of Ecclesiastes says about time and place. Emotion is a poor substitute for faith. The MM was sincere but ill-informed.
Great advice : ” The strength and truth of the doctrine of Christ, however , rest not upon
the debate experts but upon the sacred testimonies of His chosen disciples ….”
Our safety in not being misled by false apostles does reside in the testimonies of those men
who Jesus appointed to preach His gospel —Jn 17:18-20 ; Rom 1:16; Col. 1:23. Even today
their doctrine of Christ and salvation message serves well as a safety against being misled by
imitation apostles with their imitation gospels—Gal.1:8 , and that’s important since Jesus said
these would come , especially in the latter days—-Matt 24:11,24. Mormon leaders claim to
be Jesus’ true modern -day disciples , they claim to have the very same appointment by Jesus
and the very same gospel as Paul preached . In fact they have declared the “it” ( the gospel
of Christ) mentioned in Rom. 1:16 to be Mormonism i. e. Mormonism is the power of God
unto salvation ! Bishop Causse’ reminds his readers that in a world of conflicting ideas , of
contradictions , confusion, that there is safety from that and his recommendation of seeking
the safe waters of the scriptures is spot on , however he also recommends the writings of
the living prophets —Mormon leaders— to also be a safe place to anchor our souls . That is
poor advice. We have a chance to evaluate Mormon apostles by comparing their teachings
with Jesus’ original apostles concerning the most important questions–who is God, Jesus ,
and the gospel of salvation to see where there is actual spiritual safety .
@ falcon
I was answering Kate where she said that she did not see where Bishop Gérald Caussé spoke of Jesus.
As far as us believing in a different Jesus then one of the traditional Jesus’ of the rest of Christendom, yes we believe that you and your teachers of religion accept things that were added, by other teachers, to what God taught in the Bible. We believe that the very nature of God has been corrupted. We believe that there are even places where the words in the Bible have been changed.
As Joseph Smith said, there are so many people teaching so many different ideas about what God is saying in the Bible that it is impossible to understand what God is really teaching.
Thank you for being nice while visiting one of our historical sites.
Where you say that the only people who would accept some of the explanations are those who are already wanting to accept that point of view; I would challenge you to do the same kind of examination to the things taught by those who want the LDS Church to be wrong.
@ Mike R
Please explain why you believe the teachers who added the idea that the word “trinity” defined the nature of God were true teachers and that these teachings should be accepted over the other teachers that opposed the idea. (Please stay with only nonLDS teachers)
Yes Mike, please only quote non LDS sources, since LDS prophets and prescients have disagreed and even contradict one another. Let’s not confuse the Mormons with the facts that their prophets cannot agree, that to much for them to deal with and set straight.
I just listened to “Heart of the Matter” and the preacher was saying that it is so bad to work with Mormons that you should just let the devil take over the country. Is he a true teacher?
OK Parkman lets dissect what you wrote:
“As far as us believing in a different Jesus then one of the traditional Jesus’ of the rest of Christendom, yes we believe that you and your teachers of religion accept things that were added, by other teachers, to what God taught in the Bible. We believe that the very nature of God has been corrupted. We believe that there are even places where the words in the Bible have been changed.”
Let’s start with this part: “……….yes we believe that you and your teachers of religion accept things that were added, by other teachers, to what God taught in the Bible.”
This is pretty easy to debunk. Go read the Bible. It’s really that simple. Read what is there especially the first chapter of the Gospel of John. If you’re going to make a statement like the one quoted above, you need to prove it. I read the Bible and it’s pretty clear to me what is being said about the nature of Jesus. So you’re claim is basically made-up. Provide some evidence; not just what you’ve been told by the LDS church. BTW go check out the Community of Christ and Church of Christ websites regarding the nature of God. They claim to be Mormons.
Next quote:
“We believe that the very nature of God has been corrupted.”
Well that’s interesting. The nature of the God that I believe in and worship hasn’t been corrupted. How do you surmise that God’s nature has been corrupted. Mormons believe in a sinful man that became a god. So in Mormonism you’re right. The nature of the Mormon god is corrupted.
“We believe that there are even places where the words in the Bible have been changed.”
Believing something and being able to prove it are two different things.
Parkman you wrote:
‘I just listened to “Heart of the Matter” and the preacher was saying that it is so bad to work with Mormons that you should just let the devil take over the country. Is he a true teacher?’
Excuse me if I don’t take what you wrote at face value. In fact, what you wrote makes no sense to me. Provide a link so I can listen to what the preacher says. If it’s who I think you are referring to, he’s a former Mormon. I’ve found him to be reliable regarding the information he provides and also his explanations. I’m thinking you’re hearing something you want to hear but I’m willing to listen to what he says and provide my analysis.
I certainly hope we don’t find that you are bearing false witness.
Parkman , you asked about the word, Trinity , and if the teachers who added the idea of that
word did correctly define the nature of God by using it . I hope I understood you correctly.
As you know the word “Trinity” itself is’nt in the Bible , it’s merely a theological term that was
created to describe the One true God in the early years of Christianity ( late 2nd century?) when
the church was being threatened by false teachers and needed to be precise in describing God .
With that out of the way , we might look at what Mormon leaders have taught about God .
These men even used the word “Trinity” to define the nature of God , the God they believed
in , the same God who inspired the prophets and apostles in the Bible . Right away I can reject
the Mormon Trinity because it consists of three Gods , yet the Bible always teaches there is
one God. Huge difference. Also , we can look at what Mormon leaders have taught about this
God and compare it with the Bible’s testimony. Mormon leaders have taught that God was not
always God , in fact He is just a common married man who progressed into becoming the Lord
God Almighty , and he populated heaven by procreating children with His wives . This is one
of the Gods in the Mormon trinity , the others have been described as two of His sons. His wife
is a Goddess but she ( so far) is not part of this trinity . But since the term ” Godhead ” is now
preferred, one day she may well be included.
Trinity cont.
So if we can trust Mormon leaders to have actually heard from God then what they have
taught their flock should be consistent with what the Bible teaches about the Lord God
Almighty, the one true God. It’s really that basic . No need to get “deep” . Since we are
warned by Jesus that there will come many false prophets in the latter days , we can simply
compare what He directed former day prophets/apostles to teach , with these latter day ones .
We know what the latter day prophets of Mormonism have taught about their God by using the
term ” Trinity” , but does it agree with the Bible’s view of God ? I hope you’ll take up a study of
this issue by utilizing a Bible concordance and prayer , and not rely on any Mormon apologetic
organizations to do this for you. Thanks.
So our Mormon friend Parkman repeats the Mormon claim that things were left out of the Bible. Well how would someone know that unless the original was available for comparison? Someone could claim that any number of things were left out of the Bible and who’d be the wiser since their “original” wouldn’t be available to prove the copies left something out. Weren’t there UFOs in the Bible but then left out? How about Bigfoot or Count Dracula? They were in the original but left out. That’s the way the Mormon game works.
No nothing was left out of the Bible but saying so allows a false prophet free room to roam and make any variety of claims.
BTW, weren”t there things left out of the copies of the BoM. That is, if I had an original BoM and I compared it with the current edition would there be things left out or changed? Better yet, are there things that have come and gone in Mormonism over the years that don’t appear in the BoM.
I can never understand why Mormons get all wound-up because the word “Trinity” doesn’t appear in the Bible. Does the word “grandfather” appear in the Bible?
My guess is that we could come up with a multitude of words used in Mormonism that don’t appear in the Bible. I know most of current and past Mormon doctrine doesn’t appear in the Bible.
I bring it up often, but I’d like Parkman and other Mormons to do a little compare and contrast of the doctrines of the Salt Lake City Mormon sect with that of other Mormon sects. They all claim to have the real revelation.
In the end it’s obvious that Mormonism was a figment of Joseph Smith’s imagination. Those who followed him built on his creativity.
Come on Falcon, Whats wrong with you?
Your not being FAIR to Parkman, when you mention 4,000 thousand changes to the BoM. Lets not Mention that JS and Sidney Rigdon were COMMANDED by God to”correct” The Bible, thats how we Got the J.S.T of the Bible. Yet Supposedly according to who you listen to, it was never finished.
The J.S.T Claims it was never finished, yet God claims JS would not die until it was finished. Then supposedly after it was “Finished” It fell into corruption and the LDS church does not use it. But your being unfair to mention all this. O-wait, Sorry Falcon, I said you said all this when if fact you did not.
See Parker, I said Falcon said something he did not, I corrected that and said I was sorry. I can monitor myself and set things straight if I get it wrong, but at the same time, the only thing I got wrong in everything I said was, Falcon said it. The BoM does have over 4,000 changes that have never been mentioned in newer copies of the BoM. Why are they not publicly noted? Instead they are “covered” up. Then The issue with the J.S.T is correct. How do I know? I happen to own a copy of the D and C that states God commanded JS to “correct” the Bible and I own a J.S.T. That states it was never finished, but also own LDS sources that claim it was finished. Seems your church does not have a clue and cannot get their story straight.
@ Mike R
I ask you to tell me why you believe the winners of the “trinity” battle were true teachers and why the losers were false teachers and all you do is change the subject to show how the LDS Church disagrees with you.
Please start over and keep to the people who battled over the idea of the trinity. The people from the 2ed and 3rd centuries.
@ falcon
The problem as we see it is that the definition “trinity “ corrupts the real nature of God. We see too many places where Jesus and Father are not the same being.
Even noted nonMormon Christians disagree with you and say the Bible has been changed.
This is from Bart D. Ehrman .
(A graduate of Wheaton College (Illinois), Professor Ehrman received both his Masters of Divinity and Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude. Since then he has published extensively in the fields of New Testament and Early Christianity, having written or edited twenty-four books, numerous scholarly articles, and dozens of book reviews.)
( Professor Ehrman has served as President of the Southeast Region of the Society of Biblical literature, chair of the New Testament textual criticism section of the Society)
“The Booklist ~ The popular perception of the Bible as a divinely perfect book receives scant support from Ehrman, who sees in Holy Writ ample evidence of human fallibility and ecclesiastical politics. Most of the textual discrepancies, Ehrman acknowledges, matter little, but some do profoundly affect religious doctrine. To assess how ignorant or theologically manipulative scribes may have changed the biblical text, modern scholars have developed procedures for comparing diverging texts”
http://www.bartdehrman.com/biography.htm
Do you want me to show you more nonMormon Christians that disagree with you?
I listened to “heart of the Matter” on radio 820 on Sunday, 8/26/12. The preacher was not Shawn McCraney.
Parkman,
Oh it’s time to pull out Bart Erhman. He’s one of Mormonisms favs. It’s either him, some other liberal “scholars” or atheists.
Before I address Bart Erhman, let me say that it’s fascinating how Mormons have such a high stake in trashing the Bible. Now why is that especially from a religion that claims the Bible as one of its major works? And here’s the really funny part, Mormons fight like crazy to defend the BoM which is a total fabrication, a false prophet who couldn’t keep his pants on and more dubious visions and revelations than one can count.
So on-the-one-hand, God’s Word is denigrated by Mormons while at the same time they elevate their own “Scripture” to the most correct book ever written. Seems a little fishy to me.
Here’s from a review of your hero’s work:
“In other words, Ehrman, without intending to do so, does a fantastic job of showing just how little change in NT mss results from deliberate theological motivation.”
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2005/12/review-of-bart-ehrman-misquoting-jesus_31.html
From another source:
“I am however glad Bart is honest about his pilgrimage. If only he could be equally honest and admit that in his scholarship he is trying now to deconstruct orthodox Christianity which he once embraced, rather than do ‘value-neutral’ text criticism. In my own view, he has attempted this deconstruction on the basis of very flimsy evidence– textual variants which do not prove what he wants them to prove.”
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/03/misanalyzing-text-criticism-
bart.html
What I really should do is use some of the techniques and fantastic explanations that Mormons use to defend Mormonism, the BoM and other “inspired” works like the BoA. It is a curious thing that Mormons can use the most flimsy logic and explanations to hold on to a religion that is obviously a fabrication.
BTW, please supply a link of that Heart of the Matter.
Given the lack of original copies of the books in the Bible, your claim that the Bible is as correct as the day it was written is just as suspect as your examples of what was not in it.
Given the lack of original copies of the books in the Bible, your claim that the Bible is as correct as the day it was written is just as suspect as your examples of what was not in it.
Parkman,
A one sentence response is the best you can do?
Did I say that the Bible was as correct as the day it was written? I don’t remember saying that.
The Mormon claim that Mormonism was left out of the Bible is not only unprovable, but it is a self-serving piece of drivel used to support claims that have no foundation in fact. Please prove to us that Mormonism was what was being practiced by first century Christians. You can’t so you come up with these red herrings about the Bible.
You obviously know nothing about the Bible or what is generally claimed by Christians regarding the Biblical text. I and others have explained this point by point in the past and I really don’t feel like doing it again. Pick up a copy of “Essential Christianity” by Dr. Walter Martin and you will get the point-by-point explanation of the basic doctrines of the Christian faith. Then perhaps you will know enough to engage in an intelligent discussion of these matters. Currently you’re not even playing level D ball.
Parkman, you chose to not address what I took the time to post on 8-22 about the Mormon
God but instead resorted to merely giving me your “witness” that I was wrong , did I state that
you were trying to change the subject ? No . Now you ask about the term “trinity” . Mormon
authority have used that term and proceeded to define their doctrine of God , it was the “true
trinity” according to them etc. I am saying that when I take their teachings about God and
compare them with the Bible’s prophets/apostles about the One God , Father, Son Holy Ghost ,
that the two don’t agree , therefore I can reject the latter days prophets of Mormonism . To get
a correct view of Almighty God our Creator we simply don’t need Mormon prophets , we have
the prophets/apostles in the Bible . That’s the point . I’ve never taken my beliefs about God
from some “winners” in the ” trinity battle ” as you call it. So rather than concentrate on some
other religious men who taught on this subject might you see what Your own apostles have
taught about God . Take those men who Jesus discipled and sent into the world to reveal His
true identity —N.T. apostles, and compare their teachings about God /Jesus with the
teachings of those men who knew Joseph Smith and were discipled by him to continue
teaching the “restored gospel “immediately after him —Mormon apostles.
Jesus warned about prophets in the latter days, Why ?
Parkman,
I just love it when you claim Me, Falcon, or Mike R said things we did not say. We all have pointed this out to you, we simply cannot take you seriously if you keep doing that, since it means your bearing false witness and then if you do that with us, how can we think you dont do that with the scriptures or your leaders, claiming they say things they do not?
Now as to the Mormons claim that the Bible is flawed and things have been removed or added, thats a joke as Falcon said. We have the dead sea Scrolls to prove their are no major changes as LDS teach. I have said this before but a guy named Chuck Missler and a friend of His used the account in the Book of acts where Paul was on a ship that was ship wrecked, he used that story, went and found the place it happened and guess what, he found the anchors that were dropped over board and they were given to the president of the Island of Malta as a gift. Many of us on this board have been to Israel, myself included.
Can you guys use the Book of Mormon and find things from a few hundred or even thousand years ago? Seems you cannot since the Battle of the hill cumorah has been moved many times since no evidence has been found. And unlike us going to Israel, you guys cannot visit BoM lands.
Also we have the Original Book of Mormon and find 4,000 plus chages, yet we dont have the Golden plates like we do the dead sea scrolls. So it’s looking bad for your theory.
Lurkers:
I guess I’m doing this for you if you’re new to this blog there is some information you need to consider. I’ll ask the patience of the other Christian posters as it seems I write this about every four to six months.
First of all question everything someone tells you. This is especially true of any religious entity or person claiming to be a prophet. Look at various reliable sources. I would say that FARMS is about the last place you’d want to look for reliable information since this organization lives in a fantasy land. From what I understand they just dumped their esteemed leader and there’s a power struggle going on over there.
These are the essential basic doctrines of Christianity:
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Trinity; One God, three persons.
3. The Deity of Jesus. He is God.
4. The Virgin Birth of Jesus.
5. Jesus died for us. The blood atonement.
6. The resurrection of Jesus.
7. People are saved by grace apart from works.
8. Jesus second coming.
9. The final judgement.
Now what would be instructive is to compare these doctrinal points with what Christianity believes and what Mormonism believes.
As to the Word of God:
Second Timothy 3:16 says: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.”
“Inspired” means “God breathed”. If something is truly Scripture, it comes by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Just claiming that something is “Scripture” doesn’t make it Scripture.
When Christians claim that the Bible is “inerrant” they are making this claim for the “autographs” or the original not the copies. So how do we know that the copies are accurate. It’s done by comparing manuscripts. The manuscripts are greater than 98% in agreement. There are small transmissional errors that don’t effect doctrine.
parkmen, you said: Given the lack of original copies of the books in the Bible, your claim that the Bible is as correct as the day it was written is just as suspect as your examples of what was not in it.
Can you produce for us any original copies of the Book of Mormon text? Not JS’s translation, but the actual Reformed Egyptian, so that scholars of Reformed Egyptian, can verify that JS’s translation is correct?
So you are saying that the Bible has mistakes in it? You cannot have it both ways, are there mistakes in the Bible or not.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are not original, but copies of who knows how many copies. Moreover, we are talking about hand written copies, one word at a time.
HOM was a radio show; see above for time and date.
You are telling me I referenced a traditional Christian who is a false teacher.
I asked you to tell me about the men who disagreed with “trinity “becoming the definition for God’s being and to explain why those who opposed it were false teachers. I asked nothing about how the LDS Church defines the Godhead.
Are you here to convince others, like me, that your way is truly God’s way; or are you here just to put down The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?
It has been a busy year, last I heard from you people there were only 3000 changes in the Book of Mormon.
Parkman wrote:
“So you are saying that the Bible has mistakes in it? You cannot have it both ways, are there mistakes in the Bible or not.”
First of all Parkman your last post gives me the impression that you are hyperventilating. You’d be an interesting guy to go to a firing range with.
So, what do you mean by “mistakes in it” when referring to the Bible? What do you define as a “mistake”? Do you consider a variant in the manuscripts when they are compared, mistakes?
I’ll repeat this since you seemed to have missed what I wrote previously. A relatively small percentage of the NT (less than 1/2 of 1percent) is questionable material and none of it effects the message or doctrine.
The Anglican scholar Bishop E. H. Bickersteth wrote the following: “Every jot and title of the Bible, as originally penned by the sacred writers, is God’s WORD WRITTEN-I repeat, as originally penned, for the truth here affirmed does not ask us to believe in the inspiration of copyists or translators or interpreters. Superficial errors, though we believe them to be few and comparatively unimportant, may have crept in during the lapse of ages. But the autographs were perfect.”
Now what Mormonism does is take this information and make the giant leap that Mormonism was left out of the Bible by a giant conspiracy and monstrous apostasy. There is, of course, not one shed of evidence of this as the written record even outside of Scripture and tradition of the Church attest.
But this is how false prophets work. They take a piece of information and mold it to their own purposes. This is what Mormonism does with the topic of variants in manuscripts.
Mormons really aren’t interested in the truth. They are interested in supporting Joseph Smith’s fantasy .
Falcon, you’re about one tactic of false prophets , they try to divert attention away from
an important issue by forming the argument differently . This is evident in the way some
Mormons try to cast doubt about the Bible being a guide to know enough about important
spiritual truths ( who is God; how to receive a complete salvation/eternal life etc) for us today.
I think many Mormon would not hold to this position . Brigham Young tried to sell
Mormonism as the true Christian faith so he argued at one point that anyone could take
the Bible and compare the religion of the Latter-day saints with it and see if it passed the test.
He used the Bible in the vast majority of times in his preaching rather than the other “Standard
Works ” ( just like J.S. his mentor ). Maybe this was only a tactic to convince non-LDS , since
there were also many doctrines introduced by him that were not taught in the Bible like
for example his trinity of creation Gods that he incorporated into his sacred temple
endowment ceremony : Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael. Neither the Bible nor
the book that is said to clarify it –the Book of Mormon– teach this trinity of Creators.
I think this all underscores the fact that men , though well meaning , can believe that
God has appointed them to reveal His truth, new truths that correct the views of those who
have long looked to the Bible for their knowledge on vital truths about God ,and today we are
all in the dark about God because we look to the Bible instead of the prophets of Mormonism .
Jesus warned of such prophets :
Parkman,
If LDS believe BY is a true prophet of God and I am guessing you do, since I know many LDS do, then can you as an LDS member trust him and what he said?
If you say No, then why not?
If you say yes, then here is what BY said about the Bible,
BY said he both believes the Bible and trusts it enough to use it, so if he uses it and trusts it, why do you throw it under the bus and claim it is wrong?
Then even if their was only 3,000 changes to the BoM, and not 4,000 as you said, it still begs the question, why did you avoid addressing that question and keep going after the Bible?
In order for Mormonism to work for (Mormons) they have to come up with some pretty fantastic explanations to support what they “feel”.
Can you imagine such a corrupted Biblical text that it left all of Mormonism out? That’s quite a conspiracy. Add to that that there is no tradition of Mormonism any where in Church history. Another really diabolical conspiracy I guess.
Mormons have no understanding of the Bible, textual criticism and certainly no idea of what happened at the various councils that were held to clearly articulate the basic orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith.
Religions like Mormonism depend on two things. First of all the emotions of people to buy-in to some pretty fantastic stories. Secondly, these folks have to be so emotionally invested in the dream that they suspend all credulity and stop thinking in any logical manner.
I have a friend whose son is a drug addict, pusher and in constant trouble. The young man always has the most incredible explanations for why things aren’t the way they really are. In-other-words he has altered reality to fit his situation and basic belief that whatever is going down, really isn’t.
This is what happens to people in false religious sects. Those of us who haven’t bought into the fantasy are simply dumbfounded by the twisted thinking, the cognitive dissonance and the suspension of credulity. Part of the problem is that people in these sects talk to each other in ways that the code words and “speak” appear perfectly normal. Actually it is “normal” in a perverse sort of way, for them.
We hear time and again from former members who say, “How could I have believed that?” Once they’ve gotten their thinking untwisted by stepping outside the confines of what appeared normal to them, they are free.
Falcon, I missed a few words in my last post to you , but I’m sure you figured that out by now .
(boy I wish there was an “edit” button so I could go back and re-do ! oh well this is’nt the first
time nor the last I’m sure ) . Anyway I was looking at what Parkman said to you on 8-26 @ 9:19
am. He claims you (we) have accepted doctrines from what some ” other teachers ” have added
to what God has taught in the Bible. I’m glad we can agree with him that to do this would be
clearly wrong , and that should include him also. I’m trying to list in my mind just what beliefs
about God / Jesus that I may have accepted from any teachers which are’nt taught in the Bible ?
I can’t think of any . On the other hand , I have found doctrines that Mormon leaders have
taught about God and Jesus which are clearly not taught in the Bible : Heavenly Father being
revealed as a God who was not always God and who lives with His wives above. As for the
the complaint that since there are so many people with so many different “ideas” about what
God has said in the Bible that therefore it is “impossible” to understand what God is really
teaching : First off, the leaders of Mormonism have’nt solved this problem , and two, to say
that because of this that therefore no one can find the truth about God in the Bible is silly .
Mormon Bishop Causse’ counsel for LDS to help them ” keep the faith ” contains some true
points. He recommends that the Mormon people rely upon the writing of their living prophets
which will serve as beacons that cannot deceive them . Unfortunately but that is poor advice
since on some very vital issues which are directly related to one’s salvation these living
prophets/apostles have expressed or permitted teachings that were not from God , rather
they were the “precepts of men ” [ 2Nephi 28:14] , not sound doctrine [ 1Tim 4:6, 6:3 ; 2Jn 7]
clearly they were just what Mormon leaders accused others of , namely , ” they teach for
doctrine the commandments of men” [ PGP , J.S. History 1:19 ] . A vivid picture of a pattern
of unstable teachings emerges when one reviews the track record of spiritual guidance from
Mormon leaders since God allegedly restored the gospel thru them in 1830. The Mormon
people are a decent people striving to follow God , but sadly they have been detoured from
finding God’s best for them because they’ve been detoured by following Mormon prophets.
May the Mormon people find hope and security in their lives by following the apostles that
Jesus appointed to preach , their counsel and teachings are a trustworthy guide unlike
that of Mormon apostles, and can be found in the New Testament .
20 out of 20 in the 10 circle with a known weapon.
15 to 18 out of 20 with a first time handling an unknown weapon.
I have noticed that ams like to down play personal revelation by calling it “feelings”. The unimformed will believe you, but not those of us that live it.
What do you consider Bishop E. H. Bickersteth authority to be spoken of by you as authority? Is he a divine messenger, i.e. a Prophet, or is he just a man who has studied the Bible and you happen to agree with him?
Were/are the men who run “the various councils that were held to clearly articulate the basic orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith” prophets, or just men using human knowledge to define what God said?
Moreover, what about all “the various councils that were held to clearly articulate the basic orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith” that you as a man do not agree with the findings of these other men. How is one to know why you are the only group of people that got it right?
Brother Brigham is correct, the Bible should not be interpreted by men, no matter how learned they are, when there are true prophets on the earth, as we have today, to help us see how men have corrupted parts of God’s writings.
Mike, since you agree with the idea that there are no personal revelations (feelings as described here) I pray that you may come to the knowledge that by following the teachings of just the men you agree with you will continue to only have part of God’s truth.
Parkman, the reason I personally would downplay personal revelation is not because it is’nt
an important aspect in my life but that I don’t elevate it to the level that Mormons seem to .
My standard for what I believe about God/Jesus / salvation is God’s word , not what makes me
feel right etc. There are Mormons who have described personal revelation , as being
connected to a feeling . I doubt if this is anything new –Prov 14:12. Your leaders have
claimed that God has appointed them to relay His truths to mankind, they claim that they
have restored, reestablished, the original church and saving gospel of N.T. apostles . These
are claims that can be evaluated by comparing gospels etc. , not by elevating a personal
conviction above that test. Jesus warned us all to beware of false prophets, you follow
prophets and you have personal revelation, a spiritual witness that they are the modern-day
counterparts of Jesus’ apostles of the N.T. because they say so .Yet the evidence suggests
otherwise , and no ” inner “witness” can change that . We are told to evaluate the fruits of a
prophet, their teachings , not much difference in checking out a doctor or car manufacturer
to make sure that their claims to provide a trustworthy, dependable product or service
is in fact true. Mormon leaders fail the test on vital issues relative to one’s salvation.
I personally think that most Mormons don’t see their leaders as false prophets because they
believe that a false prophet just can’t be a moral , polite individual . Council’s ? There were
believers in Jesus long before the Councils you refer to.
How do I know your version of Christianity is the correct one, when there are lots of people who use the same words as you do to explain why there different ideas of what God is saying is more correct then your idea of what God said? Why are you better than the others are at understanding God?
How do I know your version of Christianity is the correct one, when there are lots of people who use the same words as you do to explain why there different ideas of what God is saying is more correct then your idea of what God said? Why are you better than the others are at understanding God?
Parkman,
Of course these men who defended orthodoxy at these councils were prophets. There were probably some teachers, pastors, evangelists and apostles in the group also. It’s all laid out in the NT. Ephesians 4:11-13 explains it all. These bishops were the Church. It was said that where the bishops are there is the Church. See that’s the problem with Mormonism. It’s based on all of these false assumptions about a great apostasy and conspiracy theories about a corrupted Biblical text.
The problem is that none of them had a magic rock to put into their hat in order to translate the Reformed Egyptian language. Had they had said rocks and hats and some incredible stories of all manner of spirit beings appearing to them, you’d be shoving all your chips to the middle of the table and be all in with their doctrine.
I think Mike points it out on about every post that the Mormon prophets are a total joke. Mike’s a little more kind in stating it though.
If you’re rejecting the Church Fathers who had a direct link to the apostles and embracing the Mormon prophets who are total dunces, you deserve to be fooled.
That’s the thing with former Mormons, they figured out that the men who were and are leading the LDS parade are no better than the Wizard of Oz pulling the handles behind the curtain.
These Mormon superstars have led people down a path of a different god and a different gospel.
Perhaps you’ll wake-up some day, but that’s in God’s hands.
Parkman wrote:
“How do I know your version of Christianity is the correct one, when there are lots of people who use the same words as you do to explain why there different ideas of what God is saying is more correct then your idea of what God said? Why are you better than the others are at understanding God?”
It would be very helpful if you gave some examples of what you’re talking about. Scroll back-up a few posts and read the one I wrote to the Lurkers regarding the basic doctrines of the Christian faith. That pretty much covers it.
Let me ask you something. How do you know your version of Mormonism is the correct one? At last count there are about a 100 different sects of Mormonism all claiming to have a prophet and the “real” revelation.
As far as I can tell, the SLC Mormon bunch are apostates in terms of Mormonism. The Community of Christ and Church of Christ pretty much follow pre-Nauvoo Mormonism. The FLDS follow Nauvoo Mormonism. All of the other off-shoots have their particular spin and are getting it all directly from the Mormon god.
I really get a kick out of these Mormons who claim that they have the real deal revelation of the restored gospel and there’s all this tumult and confusion within Christianity.
Then when you go and study the history of Mormonism and deconstruct their doctrine and “revelations” what you find is a mish mash of incoherent and inconsistent gibberish.
And these folks think they really got it going on. And why do they think this. Well because something made them feel good and that’s an indication that they are receiving direct confirmation from a deity that they have received the truth.
Now try and dissuade someone who thinks they’ve heard from God, that they haven’t. Good luck with that.
These folks aren’t going to question what they feel is a real deal supernatural experience. It’s the “knowing” that makes it so. And look out all of you non-believers. You are not even on the religious Junior Varsity as far as these folks are concerned.
BTW, don’t try and talk logic or present evidence that is contrary to what is believed.
The clincher? The more convoluted and the more bizarre the vision, doctrine or revelation is, all the better.
Parkman , what makes your version of Christianity the correct one ? You no doubt are trying
to lead into the point that you have a inner witness that your prophets /apostles are the only
truely authorized spokesman for Jesus therefore you , Mormons, are the only true christians/
followers of Jesus . Sorry , but since your apostles have failed the test of being truely directed
by Jesus to teach His gospel , you’re having an inner witness that rejects that fact tells me that
should consider relying on the witness of scripture more .Now given the fact of human nature
and how many may approach the Bible it’s never surprised me that there many denominations
around , I would expect such .If you desire to find what the Bible teaches about God and being
accepted by Him and receive a relationship with Him then look into it , put your Mormon
publications down and read the Bible and ask God for help . 2000 years after Jesus’ apostles
preached His saving truths and we have prophets coming on the scene with new truth about
God and the gospel ? the Bible is by old prophets , there is now a living prophet who alone is
God’s mouthpiece ? Sorry but we have been warned of that scenario long ago by Jesus.
To those who have been detoured by such prophets it tends to make them feel special, all
others are deceived ! Autocratic organizations like the Mormon church foster this type of
feeling,you belong to an exclusive club with privileges all others don’t have . It’s about
the organization, the organization , the organization, but the N.T. does’nt teach the name
on a building constitutes Jesus’ true Body of believers. Jn1:12
@ falcon
Please provide the names and dates of these men you think to be the Prophets who had God’s authority to define His being. I would like to study them and see if what you say about them is true.
Aside from what you teach about the nature of God’s being, everything you teach is and has been LDS doctrine.
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Trinity; One God, three persons. (The Godhead, three personages working so close together that they are one in purpose)
3. The Deity of Jesus. He is God.
4. The Virgin Birth of Jesus.
5. Jesus died for us. The blood atonement.
6. The resurrection of Jesus.
7. People are saved by grace apart from works.
8. Jesus second coming.
9. The final judgement.
@ Mike R
After spending most of your time telling me why I am wrong, you gave some hints as to how be a “true Christian”. Since you are trying to get me to do the works necessary to have your kind of faith, you might want to forget about telling me I am wrong and do more than tell me that I should read the bible and believe like you.
Falcon, I’d like to take a moment and look at what Parkman said to you :
” Aside from what you teach about the nature of God’s being, everything you teach is
and has been LDS doctrine.”
“everything YOU teach” is and HAS BEEN LDS doctrine? Really ? Let’s look at the first 4
he listed.
1. The Bible is the Word of God : Sounds great but unfortunately Mormons have been taught
that the true Gospel of salvation revealed by Jesus is’nt to be found by reading it alone .
2. The Trinity; One God ,three persons ( The Godhead ,three personages working so close
together that they are one in purpose ). The terms are correct [ Trinity and Godhead ] but
then disaster happens as The Trinity that you [falcon] teach is One God , not three separate
Gods, all men and none of whom was always God . What about the “Godhead”? Mormon
leaders taught as trustworthy spiritual truth that the true Godhead consisted of two Gods
and one non-God , then dumped that belief and exchanged it for three separate Gods, all of
whom are men and none of whom were always Creator Gods . Falcon, does this sound like
what YOU teach ?
[cont]
cont
3. The Deity of Jesus . He is God : Sounds right . But since Mormon prophets claim the
the authority and ability to interpret the written Word of God on what it says about
Jesus or to receive direct revelation from Jesus concerning knowledge about Himself
so we can examine their teachings about Him : He was the first child born to God and one
of His Goddess wives in heaven thru male to female relations ; He is the spirit brother of
Lucifer ; in school in heaven He learned and progressed rapidly to become elevated to
Godhood and known as Jehovah.
4. The Virgin Birth of Jesus : Two things we know from the teachings of Mormon leaders,
about this doctrine. One , Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. Two , He was begotten
by His Father , a man, who came down unto a woman , Mary . It took a man and woman in
heaven ( His Father and Mother ) for Him to be born there, and it took a man ( His Father)
and a woman (Mary) for Him to be born on earth.
Falcon have you ever taught this?
@ Rick B
I give you answers and you say they are non-answers because you do not believe what is said.
I try to stay on subject and you spam with distracting questions, then tell everyone I do not answer you because I ignore your spam questions and try to keep you on subject.
One thing I have learned about you and some others at this blog is that as long as you believe in the late coming definition of the trinity you can shop for the “true teachers” that agree with you and you can ignore any “false teacher” you do not agree with. As long as your “true teachers” teach what you like you will agree that they are indeed “true teachers” but let them teach something you do not like they then become “false teachers”. You cheery pick what you want to believe.
sorry, posted in wrong thread.
Our ” true teachers ” are not hard to find , nor agree with . Their teachings form the foundation
of the Church of Jesus Christ since they were appointed by Him to so teach . As long as we
utilize them as a barometer to evaluate anyone claiming to be a “teacher” then we will be doing
a good thing to stay safe from false teachers . Any “late coming definition” of the Trinity( or
other important doctrines )must agree with the N.T. teaching about God ( F., S., and Holy Ghost).
Since Jesus warned us all to beware of late (latterday) coming prophets who alter/revise His
truths —Matt 24:11,24 ( 2Pt.2:1; 2Jn 7-9), we should be on the lookout for these type prophets.
Mormon prophets fit the bill . No ” cherry picking ” , just simple testing . Not much difference
in how we should evaluate any doctor by looking at his record as a surgeon to see if he is
reliable to operate on us , rather than merely trusting his claim to offer dependable service .
@ mike
The title of this article is; “Mormons are taught how to “keep the faith””.
Let us also think about how your brand of what you call Christians “are taught how to “keep the faith””.
You must, repeat , must believe that the men who added the definition Trinity to explain their understanding of God’s teachings got it right, or you are not a true Christian.
Personally, I found the political battle that was fought over the definition Trinity to have been won by the evil spirit.
Parkman, I just love how you try to tell me what I believe . You clearly are stuck
in maintaining in your own mind a misrepresentation about the priority of who I
“must believe” about spiritual truth, in this case , about God—Father Son and Holy
Ghost. You might want to be more objective and compare what Mormon church
councils have promoted as the true trinity and then compare that with the Bible
(and BofM.) . Jesus warned of latterday prophets who would try and convince
people that they have special authorized insight straight from God on the deep truths
about Him , they will introduce (2Pt 2:1) teachings about Him not in accord with the
scriptures , they ” look beyond the mark ” ( Jacob 4:14) and package their own ideas
as new spiritual truths —2Tim 2:15 . The Mormon people deserve to be free from
following false prophets so that they can come to experience a complete relationship
with Jesus . Allegiance to their modern day apostles hinders that wonderful
experience .