The Heidelberg Catechism was first published in 1563. Described as “a comforting, practical summary of the [Christian] faith,” the catechism has been used for nearly 450 years to teach and summarize biblical doctrines. Ligonier Ministries’ daily devotional, Tabletalk, is basing its 2012 course of study on the Heidelberg Catechism’s questions and answers, looking specifically at the biblical texts used to define the doctrinal teachings.
When Tabletalk addresses Question 22, “What is then necessary for a Christian to believe?” the ensuing discussion regarding orthopraxy and orthodoxy details yet another striking difference between Mormonism and the Christian faith. As has been amply demonstrated here at Mormon Coffee throughout the years of dialog between Mormons and Christians, Mormonism is a religion of orthopraxy – that is, it is much more concerned with right behavior than with what individual members believe. Conversely, Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy – concerned first with right belief, which leads to right behavior. From Tabletalk (2 March 2012, Vol. 36, No. 3):
What Faith Must Believe
The Christian faith, in contrast to other systems, puts a premium on belief. To be sure, belief is important to other monotheistic religions such as Judaism and Islam. Yet these religions are often known as “religions of orthopraxy,” or religions of right practice. Consistent with their merit-based views of salvation, these religions generally elevate the right performance of rituals over doctrinal precision and exactitude. Christianity, however, is historically a “religion of orthodoxy,” a religion of right belief. Creeds tend to be emphasized over rituals. Christians identify each other not by the number of daily prayers, the direction they face in worship, and so on, but by the content of what they believe.
Of course, we do not want to minimize the importance of right practice, for Scripture emphasizes the need to obey the Lord (Deut. 11; John 14:15). Nevertheless, there is a logical priority of belief over practice. Surely, what we do influences what we believe, but it is impossible to do what is truly right if we do not believe what is truly right. God puts a premium on our minds and our hearts because our thoughts and our loves determine who we are and what we do (1 Sam. 16:7; Ps. 26:2-3; Prov. 23:7; Isa. 26:3; Mark 12:28-30; Rom. 8:6; 12:2).
So, the Heidelberg Catechism is certainly correct to define people as Christians according to what they must believe – the gospel (Q&A 22). But what the catechism defines as the gospel is not simply the idea that we must believe in Jesus. After all, belief in Jesus cannot make us Christians if we do not believe in the right Jesus. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Muslims all claim to “believe in Jesus.” Yet only the biblical Jesus presented in the gospel saves sinners.
As we saw in a Mormon Coffee post earlier this year, though Mormonism appears “obsessed” with Christ, the Christ it promotes is actually a different Jesus. At the close of the Tabletalk article quoted above readers are encouraged to apply right belief as they live Coram Deo — “before the face of God”:
We can imitate the example of Jesus all we want, but if we do not believe the gospel, we do not know Him. The gospel is simple—we are to put our hope of salvation only in the Son, who was sent by the Father and who pours out His Spirit on His people. At the same time, it will take an eternity to unfold the depths of the gospel. Let us continually return to the gospel and what it tells us about our triune Creator.
(…Mormonism is a religion of orthopraxy – that is, it is much more concerned with right behavior than with what individual members believe. Conversely, Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy – concerned first with right belief, which leads to right behavior.)
(Let us continually return to the gospel and what it tells us about our triune Creator.)
“We believe that God, in His sovereign grace and mercy, regenerates sinful men by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by any action of their own, bringing them to new life. God grants to them the gifts of faith and repentance, which they then exercise by believing in Christ and turning from their sins in love for God. As a result of this faith, based upon the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, God justifies or makes righteous the one who believes. God’s gift of faith, and the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the elect, results in good works. These good works flow from true, saving faith; they are a necessary result of faith, but are not to be considered necessary to the gaining of justification, which is by God’s grace through faith alone, so that no man can boast.”
http://aomin.org/articles/statement.html
You linked to James White, so will ask this question about Behavior.
Since I can do nothing good until God gets around to giving me the faith that lead to good works, why should I do what you teach before God gets around to giving me that faith? After all, you teach that my works, good or bad, can make no difference without God having given me that faith and the works that follow.
Parkman, I really don’t know what you’re driving at but perhaps you can explain why we
should accept what Mormon leaders have offered as the way to receive salvation and a
right relationship with God . This knowledge was supposedly not available to man for 1700
years or so until restored in 1830 through Joseph Smith . This event is said to be a
re-establishing of Jesus’ church and the doctrines and teachings of His apostles . But if we
follow the example of Jesus as revealed in the New Testament and accept the gospel of salvation
revealed therein [Rom 1:16] , why should we trust what Mormon prophets have declared
to be the way to receive the highest blessings in God’s presence in Heaven ?
So who has more credibility, John Calvin or Joseph Smith? I’m pretty sure I’ll go with the guy who practiced Sola Scriptura, as opposed to the guy who produced a new Bible with zero paleographic evidence, introduced religious practices that no first century historians acknowledged, erroneously translated an ancient Egyptian manuscript, and taught that people came from the Tower of Babel with a full knowledge of Christianity and moved to the Americas and established a monumental empire that thrived for over a thousand years without any trace of it ever even existing to this day.
A commonly heard statement from ex-Mormons is that the Mormon church is not about believing, it is about belonging.
Parkman,
This sentence you wrote makes absolutely no sense:
“Since I can do nothing good until God gets around to giving me the faith that lead to good works, why should I do what you teach before God gets around to giving me that faith?”
You are one confused puppy. Is this what Mormonism produces?
Atheists can have right behavior. In fact it’s not that difficult to ascribe to and follow a moral code.
Christianity is first and foremost putting faith in Jesus as the Messiah. God doesn’t ask us to get our behavior all squared away before we come to Him in faith. Our behavior is transformed because of our faith and faith is a gift that God gives us. We can’t believe on our own.
“He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of His grace……” (Ephesians 1:5-7)
Mormons suppose that with their two tier levels of salvation, that they can deify themselves through ritualistic practices and right living.
This is why Mormonism is not a Christian religion. Christians believe that it was the shed blood of the cross of Jesus Christ that bought them salvation. Mormons think that if they are good enough they can become gods. This is the attempts again of man trying to become equal with god. Mormons will protest this however if they are of the sect of god-maker Mormons who don’t believe in eternal progression but believe that becoming deified is a one shot deal, then they are at the same level as their god.
What a find interesting about this article is the nonsense it makes. It seems to put more inferences on just a belief and not a change in character on any one person. The problem I encounter with this is that the Christian church seems to just focus entirely on a belief not on change of character.
Quite a while ago I happened to look at a Wall Street Journal. On the front cover was a picture of ritual Richard L Evans. Now it seemed that the station in Omaha Nebraska broadcasting his old program thoughts for 100 days. Now if you’ve ever read these books What they seem to do for me is to make me ponder how I have lived my life. Now I know I must keep in mind how I see my relationship with Christ but still focus on what little things I can do to better my life. A better way to say it would be to choose the right and be consistent in my choices.
clyde,
Here’s the problem. The emphasis on faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross comes from the Bible. Read the Book of Romans and you will clearly see that first of all we are all condemned because of our sin. Secondly you will see that the first step in our restoration with God is accepting the sacrifice He made for our sin. Thirdly, our behavior is to conform to our faith/belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now our problem is our sin nature. Paul laments that he doesn’t do what he desires to do but too often finds himself doing that which he doesn’t want to do. As Christians we go through a process of sanctification or change.
In the Mormon system promoted by the sect which you belong to, your works are intended as a means of becoming a god. So I can see why you don’t understand Christianity and our emphasis on our relationship with Jesus. It won’t make any sense to someone caught in a religious works oriented system. Your job is to transform yourself into a deity by performing religious rituals, conforming to religious laws and behaving in a certain manner.
Mormonism is a mill stone around the neck of those trapped in the system. You can never do enough. You are under constant pressure to perform for the system. I’ve read enough testimonies of former Mormons to know that the system eats up a person’s time, treasure and energy.
Christianity is about Jesus. Mormonism is about the religious system. As Christians we believe that we are saved through our faith in Jesus regardless if we have membership in a certain religious group. Mormonism is all about the system. A Mormon thinks that it’s the system, and obedience to it, that will be rewarded.
One of the myths that Mormons like to tell each other is the myth that Christians believe that since they are saved by faith through the grace of God, they are therefore allowed to sin with impunity.
I don’t know what the motivation is for Mormons to repeat this myth. To venture a guess, perhaps it’s ignorance. However I really don’t know if this could be it. I say that because many Christians, on this blog will patiently explain basic Christian doctrine to Mormons regarding sin and the Mormons (on the blog) will just keep repeating the myth.
So the only thing that I can conclude is that Mormons rather enjoy saying this because first of all it makes Christians and Christianity look really morally corrupt. Secondly it makes Mormons feel really good about themselves and their emphasis on moral living and keeping various religious laws. Lastly, it’s an attempt to justify Mormonism i.e. the “therefore the LDS church is true” mantra.
I’ve heard a lot of sermons over the years and I know that I’ve never heard one that encouraged people to sin; quite to the contrary in fact.
I’ve chronicled here about my growing up Catholic and attendance at Catholic school. The whole Catholic system of my youth was set-up to put the squeeze on people regarding sin. It took me years to get over it and begin to enjoy a healthy relationship with God.
I don’t know if anyone can come to Christ in faith without feeling some conviction of sin and a mind-set of repentance. Remember Jesus’ words to the woman caught in adultery? Jesus told her to , “Go and sin no more.” The expectation was that she wouldn’t commit adultery again. Jesus knew, of course, the toll sin takes on the sinner.
I have told countless Mormons, Atheists, friends, family and people in general, once we are saved and give our lives over to Jesus, we SIMPLY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SIN, and do what ever we want.
People who believe this really are ignorant of what we believe, and people who have been told like the Mormons and still claim other wise are purposely passing off lies and being deceitful.
Speaking of my life and only sharing a very little, when I was five years old I need to see a shrink due to anger issues, I grew up hating the world, tried killing a few people, learned how to make pipe bombs and blew up a car, did drugs, slept around and drank a lot. I even had a restraining order put on me by a pastor of a church.
Now I enjoyed my life of sinful pleasure and doing what I wanted. How in all honesty can I go before God, admit I am a sinner in need of a savior, admit I was a law breaker by doing the things I did, Give my life over to Jesus, then simply go back to doing what I was doing and living the way I was living?
Consider the dozens of splinter-groups of the movement that Joseph Smith started. The Salt Lake group flatly rejects any of these other groups as being true Mormons even if they accept Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine & Covenants as scripture. Therefore, the Salt Lake Mormons are concerned primarily with conformity to their organization as opposed to conformity to LDS doctrine.
Consider also the ramifications of this system, one example being that the Salt Lake church cannot participate in so-called jailhouse religion. How can someone locked-up in prison for the rest of their life advance in their eternal progression when they will never have access to temple work of any kind? How will they be able to give ten percent of their income or perform services in their priesthood when they have no income and no ward to be a part of? One cannot simply read the Book of Mormon and come to faith in Jesus Smith and be accepted by the Salt Lake church organization, which according to them is the totality of the true body of Christ. Contrastingly, everyday many death row inmates come to faith in Christ from a basic reading and preaching of the Bible and baptism.
This helps to explain this fundamental difference between the LDS church and Christianity. For the LDS church, all true Mormons are primarily members of their visible organization with a secondary emphasis on conformity to their scriptures. For Christianity, all true Christians are primarily saved by faith in the triune God as revealed in the Bible and members of the one true church which is invisible regardless the visible organization they are members of. I hope this helps.
Falcon
This is the way I see it. There are some people who could change their life quickly. There are some people who takes a long time to change their life. Now I see people who have been able to change quickly and remarkably. But with some people it is a struggle because they struggle with certain things that you and I take for granted.
Now one must realize that some people are not working for a better place in heaven but to let people see that they are a light for Christ.
I mentioned thoughts for a hundred days because they contain little nuggets of thought that make me think of better ways to change my life.
Rick
Interesting story Rick. you remind me of a friend I knew the Navy. From his looks I almost could not believe what he told me he used to do. The analogy I thought of is like people who quit smoking, some can do it cold turkey and some have to kind of taper off. A better way to say it would be like a person who just changes direction and never looks back. As oppose to a person who still wants to look back.
clyde,
I would agree with you whole-heartedly regarding the time it takes for transformation in behavior in the lives of people.
Here’s something for you to think about. When we come to Jesus in faith, applying the blood of His sacrifice to our sin, the Father sees us as perfect. In fact the Bible tells us that the Father says “their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more”. In-other-words, our sins are not counting against us in regards to our salvation.
Coming to Christ in faith changes our position before Almighty God. We go from being accused, convicted and sentenced to being pardoned. We aren’t exonerated as someone might be who is falsely accused. The accusations against us are true. We are guilty.
In terms of “rewards” for good behavior, I’ve never heard that from a Christian as a motive for godly living. Christians will most often talk about being conformed to the example which Jesus provided for us.
Now I’m talking about Christianity. Mormonism is a totally different program. What you need to ask yourself is, is Mormonism true? Whether we behave ourselves or not isn’t the real issue. The issue is, who is Jesus? That’s the key question. Talking about behavior is interesting, but our behavior doesn’t get us saved for eternity. Our behavior doesn’t keep us safe and secure in regards to salvation.
The only security we have is in Jesus and our faith in Him. Someone who is born again isn’t going to be perfect on the outside, but they are perfect on the inside where the Holy Spirit dwells. We do all groan for that time of resolution when our body is transformed from a vessel of sin and death, to a resurrected body.
So, is Mormonism true? Can the system save you? The answer is no!
Clyde,
With all due respect, I think that part of your confusion regarding this matter is that you are still using the Mormon worldview in your understanding of faith and behavior. This view of self-betterment changes as something that a person does for himself (such as quitting smoking, or applying a magazine article to one’s life) are very foreign to the Christian worldview. After coming to faith in the triune God this concept of self-betterment under our own power no longer applies. At the moment of faith, the Holy Spirit is the one who actively begins to change us and conform us to the image of the Son of God; it is no longer us who does this. “Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us” (Eph 3.20). “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit” (2Co 3.18).
The Mormon church strongly enforces a system of self-works righteousness in its members by constantly creating disappointment and shame in their members for not being “righteous” enough and not having enough faith, etc. All of this shame, all of this disappointment, all of this pressure that the organization burdens it’s members with can all be washed away through the blood of the Son of the triune God and thrown as far away as the east is from the west. We are all praying for you, that you will rest solely on His glory for your righteousness on not on yourself. You will get angry, but He will cover you with the wings of His love.
Clyde said
Clyde, I typically dont tell people about my former life, I did so much evil stuff and was really rotten to the core, that as you said, It’s almost unbelievable. Many people typically think I am making stuff up just to sound tough. Their are people still alive to this day that knew me and will verify I did what I said and then some.
But your wrong when you say, Its like trying to stop smoking. I did not just wake up one day and said, I’m tired of being evil, I dont want to be mean to people or sleep around anymore or stop doing drugs, etc. I really did enjoy sin and doing what I was doing and going the way I was. It was because Jesus came into my life, I knew then on I was a vile sinner in need of a Savior. Jesus told me in His written word, The things I was doing were and are wrong and do not please Him. I read in His word people living this life style will never see the kingdom of God. But I also knew I was not able to change on my own and would not stop. It is Jesus who changed my life.
peshitta,
Good point on the shame based religious orientation of Mormonism. Mormonism is a top-down organization where by the leaders have to keep the followers under their domination and control and shame is a way of doing it. I’ve heard that Mormons are known for being into everybody else’s business. They are known for not respecting personal boundaries; a real busy body orientation. It’s important for everything to look good on the outside.
There’s a good book titled “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”. The counselor who wrote the book talks about how he began to recognize the same characteristics in people who are spiritually abused as those who have been sexually abused.
I read an article recently where the author was talking about growth in the LDS church. He said that it will be limited because there are a closed set/limited number of people who would be willing to make the maximum commitment to a religious organization/system that Mormonism demands.
Christianity is not about a religious system. It’s about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Even though there are legalistic type Christian groups, those who know and understand what Jesus is about, don’t get hooked into these type of groups.
Being free in Christ was a very liberating experience/concept for me, having been brought up hard-core Catholic. I really don’t hold a grudge against the Catholic Church. I buried the hatchet on that years ago. I’ve noticed that my older brother, who’s a very dedicated Catholic, has changed greatly over the years and is liberated from the system we grew up in.
The Bible says that the Law was given as our tutor. Jesus completed the Law. Paul warns the Galatians about putting themselves back under the law. Jesus has set us free from religious laws, rituals and routines.
Referring to the LDS notion of a restoration, MikeR said,”This event is said to be a
re-establishing of Jesus’ church and the doctrines and teachings of His apostles.”
Actually, I think the LDS emphasis is more on a restoration of priesthood authority than on a restoration of doctrines and teachings. By emphasizing authority they don’t need to show much correlation between ancient doctrines and modern LDS doctrines. With the authority to act and speak in God’s name, they can say whatever they want and teach whatever they want because God told them to. At least that’s my read on what Joseph Smith was really up to, and I saw that when I was still a temple recommend holding, tithing paying Mormon.
Welcome Tom.
Love to have former Mormons contribute here. It drives currently active Mormons nuts, having apostate Mormons “testifying” as to where they were before, where they are now and how their exit out of Mormonism took place.
Thanks for your insight in regards to the “priesthood authority” because I know that’s a major turn-on for Mormons. I think it’s basically a head-trip as we used to say in the 60s. Just think of it; priesthood authority today, deification in the future. What else could a man want; and for the women? Well they get to have a forever family, sealed in the temple bonding the whole crew together for eternity. That’s a real pull at the heart strings.
Is there any wonder that these folks will jump through any hoop to grab the brass ring promised to them. What a disappointment when they begin to understand that none of it’s true.
But there’s a better way. It’s the pathway to the Father provided by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Lecrae – “I’m a Saint” lyrics
I was a dead man until somebody hit me with the hardest facts,
the Gospel hit my heart, I guess that’s what you call a heart attack.
I’m looking at Ephesians 2 like, “What did Jesus see in you?”
Nothing, by His grace He chose to love on folks like me and you.
And I don’ t understand it, homie, I never planned it,
I was chasing money and fast women, and man
then I met the great I AM, Son of Man, or the Lamb,
snatched your boy up out of hell and got me working for His plans.
I used think I was the man until I met Him.
All of that arrogance and pride I dead them and forget them.
I’m a saint!
(Sorry, this conversation just reminded me of that track)
Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. You’re correct about the alleged loss of authority that
Mormon leaders have offered as part of their erroneous doctrine of a complete /universal
apostasy from the Christian religion which they offer as the reason why we should all embrace
Mormonism as the only true gospel/church today. It’s important to remember that another
important claim by Mormons is that the same church that Jesus established as well as the same
gospel that Paul preached was restored by Joseph Smith . Supposedly soon after the death of
the last of Jesus’ apostles the gospel they preached was altered/ distorted and then people
relied on the false ideas of men which were taught as truth . This is why Mormons claim that
after 1700 years of spiritual darkness salvation was ” again available ” through their prophets .
While Mormon authorities love to emphasize the un availability of priesthood authority they
also have taught that vital truths of the gospel were also not available until 1830 when
they were allegedly restored . False prophets find it advantageous to try and convince people
that they have been appointed by the same Jesus that directed the original apostles, this is great
selling point in their advertising why we need to accept them as a modern day “authorized ”
spokesman for Jesus . We’ve been forwarned of these men —Mark 13:23 , and have a way to
test their message —- 2 Cor 11:4 ; Gal. 1:8 ; 2Jn 7-9
Another work-around I used as an active Mormon was this: The restoration was a restoration not only of the church Jesus established, but also a restoration of all things from the beginning pertaining to salvation and exaltation. Thus, in my thinking it didn’t matter that the first and second century church had no temple rituals, and attempts by Mormons to claim they did but that evidence of the rituals was lost in the great apostasy were misguided. In my thinking the covenants, signs, tokens, and key words were restored from the time of Adam and the antediluvian patriarchs and not from the time of the apostles. No LDS-style temple worship in the early Christian church? No problem because the early Christian church didn’t practice it generally at any rate. The apostles and the inner circle probably did, but not the church at large. This kind of thinking relative to the absence of modern LDS restoration doctrines and practices in the early Christian church was my own personal “limited geography theory” as I tried to balance LDS truth claims about a general apostasy with the reality of what the first century church actually looked like. I began to feel like one of those plate spinners on the old Ed Sullivan Show. I wore myself out trying to keep all those plates aloft and spinning on the ends of all those LDS truth claim sticks.
In the OP it states Mormonism is a religion of orthopraxy – that is, it is much more concerned with right behavior than with what individual members believe.
Alma 7:24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.
All of what we teach and the talks given do focus more on our actions/deeds, why? Because it is already a given that the intended audience are believers in the first place and do not need to be taught that tenet again, so the focus is what to do after faith has taken hold. As RickB said, it is not a free for all.
Falcon said,
Read the Book of Romans and you will clearly see that first of all we are all condemned because of our sin. Secondly you will see that the first step in our restoration with God is accepting the sacrifice He made for our sin. Thirdly, our behavior is to conform to our faith/belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hmm – We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are First faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; Second repentance; Third Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; Fourth laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
If I read these two things correctly, aren’t they saying the same thing? We need to accept Jesus and believe in Him first, then we need to accept His sacrifice through repentance for forgiveness, then lastly we need to conform our behaviour (as you stated) or in other words act on our belief, in the LDS case baptism is the next step then other things follow on. So yes, I am following what you prescribed from the book of Romans.
Ralph, you addressed one line from the OP, when you should have addressed the following:
The Christian faith, in contrast to other systems, puts a premium on belief. To be sure, belief is important to other monotheistic religions such as Judaism and Islam. Yet these religions are often known as “religions of orthopraxy,” or religions of right practice. Consistent with their merit-based views of salvation, these religions generally elevate the right performance of rituals over doctrinal precision and exactitude. Christianity, however, is historically a “religion of orthodoxy,” a religion of right belief. Creeds tend to be emphasized over rituals. Christians identify each other not by the number of daily prayers, the direction they face in worship, and so on, but by the content of what they believe.
Of course, we do not want to minimize the importance of right practice, for Scripture emphasizes the need to obey the Lord (Deut. 11; John 14:15). Nevertheless, there is a logical priority of belief over practice. Surely, what we do influences what we believe, but it is impossible to do what is truly right if we do not believe what is truly right. God puts a premium on our minds and our hearts because our thoughts and our loves determine who we are and what we do (1 Sam. 16:7; Ps. 26:2-3; Prov. 23:7; Isa. 26:3; Mark 12:28-30; Rom. 8:6; 12:2).
So, the Heidelberg Catechism is certainly correct to define people as Christians according to what they must believe – the gospel (Q&A 22). But what the catechism defines as the gospel is not simply the idea that we must believe in Jesus. After all, belief in Jesus cannot make us Christians if we do not believe in the right Jesus. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Muslims all claim to “believe in Jesus.” Yet only the biblical Jesus presented in the gospel saves sinners.
Well Ralph,
I guess that makes you a Christian, right? You’re going to put your faith in Jesus, repent, get baptized and have the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost.
I don’t know how we Christians can’t possible accept what you’ve testified to here as absolute proof that you and your religion are Christian. Let’s see, I’ve gone through all those things so I must be a Mormon too, right?
Ralph,
What sets Mormonism apart from Biblical Christianity? Would you please list those things for me. You see Ralph if the MM come knocking on my door and they said the things you’ve written about and I didn’t know Mormonism, I’d think you were probably a Lutheran of some sort.
Hay, wait a minute. Wasn’t it your late prophet GBH who said that the Jesus of Mormonism, isn’t the Jesus of traditional Christianity? Small point huh Ralph? You see Ralph, this is why Mormons and Mormonism have the reputation of being liars, deceivers and wolves in sheep clothing.
I think it’s back to the drawing board for you Ralph. You need to come clean and stop perpetrating the lies and deceit of Mormonism. You need to go to the school of Bruce McConkie where you can learn to be an honest and straight-forward Mormon. At least the old-timers didn’t try to make themselves look like Evangelical Christians. They were loud and proud and spoke forth their heresy with great relish. You modern day Mormons seem intent on hiding behind a facade of good works and clean living while hiding and camoflaging the truth about Mormonism.
That truth is that you believe in a different God, a different Jesus, a different Holy Ghost and a different plan of salvation.
The Mormon god is a former sinful man. Be up front Ralph.
Ralph, you cited Alma 7.24 in your post, but going off falcon’s response perhaps you should also consider 1Ne 22.23: “For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world…”
Falcon is correct when he states that the days are indeed gone when the LDS presidents were frank with contrasting the differences between the Mormon Jesus with the Christian Jesus (e.g. McConkie accusing Christians of abasing “themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ”). Now the modern president is going through great efforts to trickle down through the organization the belief that Mormon and Christians worship the same Jesus, thus making themselves popular in the eyes of the world.
And also, considering the part of this verse that discusses “churches which are built up to get gain”, you should probably also consider Morm 8.37: “For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.”
The LDS organization is a multi-billion dollar corporation and has historically been (prior to the ratcheting up of this effort during the presidential race due to PR) one of the least charitable organizations in the US. Their empty (for-the-most-part) temples worldwide are a prime example of a church more concerned with wealth than the poor.
In top-down organizations the emphasis is on appearances. Everything needs to look good on the outside even if the inside is full of dead-men’s bones. I’m not in favor of slovenly appearance or decadent behavior but I am in favor of the appearance matching the reality. Unfortunately what Mormonism is about are appearances. Mormonism is about conformity.
I never attended BYU but I’ve been there, walked across the campus and observed. I remember an article in Sports Illustrated way back when about Jim McMahon the great BYU and Chicago Bears’ QB. He was a Catholic attending BYU. His girl friend and future wife was a Mormon. He talked about being spied upon, outside his apartment by BYU types (he didn’t say if it was self-appointed morality police or BYU authorities). Jim wasn’t exactly the type to conform to certain expectations. Funny thing, as great a QB as he was, he’s never been inducted into the BYU football/athletic hall of fame.
So what we’re talking about here is a form of godliness that’s devoid of the Spirit of God. Now Mormons think they have the Spirit of God but what they really have is a religious structure and a system with behavioral expectations. It’s a self-righteousness that leads to pride, arrogance and self-importance.
Conforming to a religious code without having a heart for and personal relationship with Jesus is futile and a waste of time and effort as regards eternal life.
(…temples worldwide are a prime example of a church more concerned with wealth than the poor.)
peshitta,
I bet you would have also been among the people who complained about the woman using expensive oil on Jesus instead of selling it and giving the money to the poor. There is money to help the poor and there is money to do the Lords work. Unless you are in one of the groups that owns no property, you are a “pot calling the kettle black”.
(The LDS organization is a multi-billion dollar corporation and has historically been (prior to the ratcheting up of this effort during the presidential race due to PR) one of the least charitable organizations in the US.)
You are showing your great lack of knowledge of the LDS Church. The LDS Church is one of the few private originations that has plane loads of food and relief supplies READY to ship out on demand. I can personally remember this being true in the early 90’s, long before Romney started looking at the presidency.
The LDS Church has a long history of helping the poor.
Southcart, your debate teacher would rollover in his grave if you knew that you just took the bait and argued against a supplementary of another supplementary point to the conversation at hand. I will let your words stand on their own and let the people do their own research for themselves to find the truth without using bold letters. It is no surprise that you have a response, but let us get back to the conversation and get off this response to a response to a supplementary point of a supplementary point to the conversation at hand. I hope the moderator doesn’t kick us both both off due to your shenanigans.
Parkman wrote:
“I bet you would have also been among the people who complained about the woman using expensive oil on Jesus instead of selling it and giving the money to the poor.”
…..and how do you know that the Christians who post here would do that? You really have no knowledge of any of the Christians who post here and what their attitudes are towards giving.
Since we’re talking about good works here, is it fair to ask how much of the beneficent giving of the LDS church goes to non-LDS people. I know the Utah Mormons have a reputation of helping their own, but what about those outside of the organization.
I could fill-up my ration of posts with the names of the Christian organizations that help the poor.
We could get into a game of “we’re better than you” but I don’t think that’s something the Lord would be interested in.
Parkman said
I’m going to say, You guys might help out some poor, But not as many as you claim. I was in Utah for two weeks, toured the temple and walked the streets talking with homeless. The biggest complaint was, the church offers them no help.
Now I am not going to debate this since I can be honest enough to say, They maybe are mad at the church and saying that, or maybe they are former LDS who left and know are Mad. I dont know. But unlike you who claims evidence exists, but for some reason cannot provide it, I can be honest and admit maybe these guys lied.
Now as far as Falcon goes claiming the LDS church is all about the outward appearance, I must agree 100 percent with this. When King David was a boy, and while they were waiting to choose Him and were looking over His brothers, Saul said, God looks at the heart, but Man looks at the outward appearance. The Mormon church really does do this.
I never dress up, I wear Jeans and t-shirts, Muscle Shirts, Long sleeve shirts, Etc. When I got married, I wore a leather Jacket, Blue jeans and combat boots. On the back of my Jacket was an anti-abortion Picture, It was a baby seal on the beach holding a sign that said, save the baby Humans, stop abortion. I have all these pictures to this day in our wedding album. I also as I have said, have a Mohawk and and a really bushy jet black Goatee. I’m now working for my self as a private Chef, I’m doing really good form myself, (cont)
(cont)
So now I am growing out my Goatee so it will be as long as possible, like a biker beard. As a result of this, I have spoken in person with many LDS over the years, they have said, I can join the church if I want to, But unless I change my appearance all I will ever be is a pew warmer, I can never serve as a leader, teacher, Missionary or anything else. Now I wont be joining so I dont care, but if mere appearance keeps me from these things, then something is seriously wrong. Jesus had a beard, we know that, but if Jesus were alive and here today, I bet the LDS would tell Him he needs to shave in order to do anything in the church. Even BY from the looks of his pictures had a Hugh bushy beard, but I cannot. Well Thats fine, God uses me and thats all that matters.
So since we are talking about behavior (giving to the poor) and temples now, here is a list of each country that has a temple (per year of creation) and the total percentage of that country’s population that is an active Mormon.
1836 United States – today 0.798%
1923 Canada – today 0.183%
1955 Switzerland – today 0.031%
1958 New Zealand – today 0.940%
1958 United Kingdom – today 0.048%
1978 Brazil – today 0.136%
1980 Japan – today 0.017%
1983 Samoa – today 13.020%
1983 Tonga – today 15.500%
1983 Chile – today 0.417%
1983 French Polynesia – 3.780%
1983 Mexico – today 0.247%
I could go on but it is very tedious work crunching these numbers. The only numbers in this list that have 1% of their population or more as active Mormons are remote islands (Samoa, Tonga, & French Polynesia) whose combined populations are less than the least populous US state.
The church boasts about how their temples are made with the world’s finest mahogany and quarried materials, etc. and there are 139 of these dotting the globe. There is really no telling how much all of these temples combined would have cost, but imagine what this money could have went towards for the poor and needy all over the world. And then the LDS church has the nerve to build a $4M mall in Utah (for comparison, the world’s tallest building cost only $1.5M to build). Ask Mormon missionaries to assist you in any way with a desperately needed car ride or cash in dire times and see what the results are. They can’t help you not because they don’t want to but because they contractually cannot, nor can they help you financially unless they want to go without themselves because they fund their own way.
(cont.)
So would you like to know what the church has done with all of tithing dollars it has accumulated throughout the years? Here is also a list of some of the companies that the LDS church owns:
Deseret Management Corporation
Beneficial Financial Group
Bonneville International
Bonneville Communications
Bonneville Interactive Services
Bonneville Satellite
35 Radio Stations
1 Television Station (KSL)
Deseret Book
Excel Entertainment
Deseret Morning News
Hawaii Reserves
Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)
La’ie Shopping Center
La’ie Park
La’ie Cemetary
Hukilau Beach Park
La’ie Water Company
La’ie Treatment Works (sewer)
Mstar.net
Temple Square Hospitality
Weddings (JSMB and Lion House)
The Inn at Temple Square
Lion House Pantry
The Roof Restaurant
The Garden Restaurant
Passages Restaurant
Zions Securities Corporation
Farm Management Corporation
Deseret Land and Livestock
200,000 acres of land in Rich, Morgan and Weber counties (Utah)
Sun Ranch (Martin’s Cove)
Deseret Ranches of Florida (Orlando) (largest ranch in Florida)
Deseret Farms of California
Rolling Hills (Idaho)
West Hills Orchards (Elberta, Utah)
Cactus Lane Ranch (Arizona)
Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (CPB)
Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Deseret Trust Company
LDS Family Services
Property Reserves Inc. (PRI)
Ensign Peak Advisors
Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)
Brigham Young University (BYU)
BYU – Idaho
BYU – Hawaii
LDS Business College
Nebraska-Farmland Reserve Inc-Rex Ranch
Australia-Agreserves Australia Limited-Kooba Station
Agreserves Australia LTD Kooba Station,Australia.
Deseret Ranches of Alberta Raymond,AB Canada
Agreserves LTD Cambridge,England
AgroReservas, S.C. Los Mochis, Mexico
Deseret Farms of CA Woodland, CA
Deseret Farms of CA Modesto,CA
Deseret Farms of CA Chico,CA
South valley Farms Bakersfield, CA
Deseret Security Farms Blythe, CA
Naples Farms Naples,FL
Deseret Cattle & Citrus ST. Cloud, FL
Deseret Farms of Ruskin Ruskin, FL
Kewela Plantation O’ahu,HI
Rex Ranch Ashby, NE
Riverbend Farms ST.Paul, OR
Deseret Land & Livestock Woodruff, UT
Wasatch-Dixie Farms Elberta, UT
Agreserves Cottle CO.,TX
Agrinorthwest kennewick,WA
Handcart Ranch Alcova, WY
Deseret Ranches of Wyoming Cody,WY
(cont.)
I don’t know if people are more inclined to sin in repressive religious environments or those where there is a more relax attitude; one devoid of external controls, group pressure to conform and shamed based sanctions.
People intent on pursuing their favorite sins will just go underground with them in these types of environments. When there are a lot of rules and laws what people will do is try and figure out how they can get their toes right up to the line or rationalize their behavior.
There’s a lot of secret sin among religious folks. Just looking at the number of high profile religious leaders who get caught involved most often with sexual sin reveals how some people lead double lives.
If I were to pick the sin of choice within repressive religious environments it’s generally in the area of lust. I don’t know what would be second on the list, but lust is way out in front. Maybe next would be something in the area of character like gossip, maybe envy and pride. Tough to say.
I remember reading about a church whose leadership decided to remove any external pressures for people to conform to a prescribed behavioral pattern. It was said that it was painful to watch many people go “merrily into sin”. But it was said that then they knew who was saved and who wasn’t. I thought that was an interesting conclusion.
If someone is conforming to a behavioral standard (externally) in order to not be shamed or sanctioned by the group, you’d really wonder about their seriousness regarding their walk with the Lord.
People do struggle with sin, no doubt about it. In the end it’s about a person’s attitude regarding their sin.
(pe[filtered profanity or slur]ta,)
This is funny since I copied and pastes p’s name. I think the censor does not like your name.
(There is really no telling how much all of these temples combined would have cost, but imagine what this money could have went towards for the poor and needy all over the world.)
Good thought, just think of all the workers that were hired and paid to do an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay that would have needed the hand out because they were not working. Every bit of money you give to the poor takes away from someone you could have supported by buying their labor.
(So would you like to know what the church has done with all of tithing dollars it has accumulated throughout the years? Here is also a list of some of the companies that the LDS church owns…)
You seem to be saying that it is wrong for a Godly origination to run a for profit business to help pay for the needs of the poor. There are many Christian groups that run mom and pop size businesses to help pay for missionary work and to help the poor. You just seem mad that this Christian origination does it on a larger scale.
(And then the LDS church has the nerve to build a $4M mall in Utah…)
The nerve of them, creating jobs for the people of SLC. And not owing a dime so all the profit can go to helping more growth, including the growth of the ability to help more of the needy.
It is knowing how to manage your seed corn
so you will have a greater amount of feed corn.
Parkman, I think that would all be quite fine, depending on the way the profits were used. I’m led to think of a wise motto from a man I do greatly respect, John Wesley: “Having first gained all you can, and secondly saved all you can, then give all you can”. If that were truly the spirit undergirding the LDS Church’s for-profit business ventures, it would be not only beyond reproach in the matter but indeed commendable. The problem is that, with the LDS Church’s idiosyncratic refusal to exhibit the barest modicum of financial transparency, we have fairly solid grounds for doubting that the LDS Church is really doing that. While some level of charitable activity is engaged in, it doesn’t seem to measure up to the profits earned through these business ventures. That aside, it’s all well and good to provide jobs in Salt Lake City, but what of places with greater need – what of persons with greater need?
In the end, God will have to be the ultimate judge of the motives of any person, whether myself, yourself, and those in leadership in the LDS Church. But when he asks the latter if they really needed to be ferried about in Cadillacs and to wear fine suits, rather than living a simpler lifestyle and using the rest to feed hundreds or thousands of God’s starving creations across the globe… Well, I can only hope that they and I alike will grow to further model a God- and other-centered form of financial stewardship before we stand before the bar of judgment.
(The problem is that, with the LDS Church’s idiosyncratic refusal to exhibit the barest modicum of financial transparency, we have fairly solid grounds for doubting that the LDS Church is really doing that. While some level of charitable activity is engaged in, it doesn’t seem to measure up to the profits earned through these business ventures.)
You do not like the mix of seed corn to feed corn.
Your people did not like it years ago, but because we did not take your advice at that time there is now larger supply of seed corn and a much larger supply of feed corn than if we had followed your advice.
(But when he asks the latter if they really needed to be ferried about in Cadillacs and to wear fine suits, rather than living a simpler lifestyle and using the rest to feed hundreds or thousands of God’s starving creations across the globe…)
Back in the 70’s I remember thinking it was funny that Brother Monson was being driven around in a Reliant. Given the number of people who follow your advice and that are willing to use violence to achieve their ends, I would rather see them in an armored vehicle.
If we follow your advice the carmakers and suit makers woulb be out of a job and then they would join the “rest to feed hundreds or thousands of God’s starving creations across the globe”.
()()()()
(Here is also a list of some of the companies that the LDS church owns…)
pe[filtered profanity or slur]ta,
I thought of something while I was helping other people to make a living by buying things I needed and wanted.
You have a list of companies the make it possible for the LDS Church to have truckloads and plane loads of emergency relief supplies ready to ship at a moment’s
Parkman,
This is what you fail to grasp,
It does not matter how much money your church spends or how many people they employ. Spending money and creating Jobs, or building temples cannot and will not ever save you.
Then Jesus said, The poor you will always have with you. So as Long as Jesus is not ruling the earth we will have poor people with us.
Now the other and bigger issue is this, The Bible says,
Not only do you have a false Gospel and false jesus, you have ZERO LOVE, I have asked LDS on this site before, Where is your love?
No Mormons has ever answered that question. You Lie, You, accuse with out facts, You bear false witness, where is the Love of Christ in that? Your father the Devil does those things and you follow his leading perfectly. With out Love you are nothing, With out Jesus your headed to eternity with out end in the lake of Fire.
Here is a thought that is closer to the subject.
While on a road trip, an elderly couple stopped at a roadside restaurant for lunch. When leaving, the elderly woman unknowingly left her glasses on the table, and she didn’t miss them until they had been driving for about forty minutes. By then, to add to the aggravation, they had to travel quite a distance before they could find a place to turn around, in order to return to the restaurant to retrieve her glasses. All the way back, the elderly husband became the classic grouchy old man.
He fussed and complained, and scolded his wife relentlessly during the entire return drive. The more he chided her, the more agitated he became. He just wouldn’t let up for a single minute.
To her relief, they finally arrived at the restaurant. As the woman got out of the car, and hurried inside to retrieve her glasses, the old geezer yelled to her,
“While you’re in there, you might as well get my hat and the credit card.”
While the christian sees this as a very funny joke, gets a good laugh out of it and goes on with his life. Probably not realizing the wisdom in the joke.
A Mormon on the other hand would see it as a humorous anecdote, get a chuckle and realize that he should remember it so he can change his life a little bit. He can show some patience for his loving wife and exhibit some quality that Jesus showed.
Clyde, do you have a particular basis for demeaning Christians, or is this time around just for fun?
It is demeaning to you? I wanted to see if you got some wisdom from the story. Not everthing that is secular is bad. It is in how you see things.
Clyde, I like the way you differentiated between ” Christian” and ” Mormon” . That’s food
for thought .
I like you Mike. I wish you a Merry Christmas and strength and joy in the new year.
Clyde, thanks for your wish . I hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas as well.
Perhaps you did’nt understand what I meant in my last post . I was curious why you separated
the terms ,” Christian” from “Mormon” in your post ? It kind of goes against what I hear these
days from Mormons . Anyway , that was my thought .
Mike, I really thought the comments were getting away from the subject of the blog. So I decided just to have some fun. Somebody could have thought something different but it just popped into my head.
You’re right Mike I need to get more sleep. Good Night.
Pes-hitta,
You said ”Surely, what we do influences what we believe, but it is impossible to do what is truly right if we do not believe what is truly right. God puts a premium on our minds and our hearts because our thoughts and our loves determine who we are and what we do”
I agree there and so would most LDS. But on the Day of Judgment, what basis is our faith going to be judged? Is Jesus going to just read our hearts and then send us to where we need to go? Or is He going to look at the fruits of our faith – in other words our works/actions/deeds? As I said in my last post, we assume that all converts already have faith in Jesus and we are now assisting by teaching them whats next. It’s the meat after the milk, we can’t always sit in infants school (5-8 yrs old) and just rehash believe, believe, believe. Even the epistles teach more than that, they teach us what we need to do. Unless you want to subscribe to Martin Luther’s teaching that we can commit hundreds of fornications and murders a day and still be saved if we believe. So that is why it seems that we are ‘orthopraxy’ rather than your so called orthodoxy; as orthodoxy relates to both belief and practice, not just belief as the OP seems to state (look it up on http://dictionary.reference.com if you don’t believe me). So in this regards we can be classed as both orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
I quoted Alma 7:24 showing the way we believe things work – first faith, then from that faith comes the ‘good works’. Isn’t that what all you teach?
Falcon,
In your post I was addressing, you preceded the statement I cited with ”The emphasis on faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross comes from the Bible.” Then you gave the interpretation I copied. I was just pointing out to you that we LDS already teach and do that but you stated quite obviously we weren’t. So in that you were incorrect in your presentation of our teachings. I was not saying that doing that makes one a Christian, you have done that.
You said to Clyde – ”Here’s something for you to think about. When we come to Jesus in faith, applying the blood of His sacrifice to our sin, the Father sees us as perfect. In fact the Bible tells us that the Father says “their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more”. In-other-words, our sins are not counting against us in regards to our salvation.”
Can I ask for some clarification please – when you said “we COME” are you implying some sort of work that we have to do OURSELVES (ie without any external assistance from anyone including the Trinity god) in the initiation of our faith in Jesus? When you say “APPLYING the blood” again, is this some sort of work we need to do OURSELVES? If you answer ‘yes’ then you do not believe that faith alone saves as there are already 2 things you need to do before The Father grants the blessing of forgiveness which you have written about. If you say ‘no’ then how do you come to Jesus and apply His blood without our own work?
Ralph has done a marvelous job answering the actual topic at hand. We are more rightly considered both, as Faith has always been the first principle, and the foundation of all other doctrine and practice. But we do believe that something comes after faith, and that something is our works.
I would add only this: Even though we believe our works are required, we do not believe it is our works alone, or even that we have the power to do the necessary works without the direct assistance is our Lord. Those who claim otherwise are ignorant as to the doctrine of the church.
We must first believe, and then we must use that faith to do the works that the Lord has commanded us.
Peshitta
You say: “There is really no telling how much all of these temples combined would have cost, but imagine what this money could have went towards for the poor and needy all over the world. ”
There is really no telling how much the Temple that Solomon built cost. It was made of the most expensive wood, overlaid with Gold. Solid gold dishes and statues adorned it. The embroidery used the most expensive material available. I don’t see you condemning the King for such extravagance in building a temple. This is understandable because the Bible tells us that he was blessed for this.
So, why is it that Solomon can built such lavish structures in honor to God, but we are vile, greedy sinner for doing so ourselves? Your entire argument only shows your own hypocrisy.
John
Personally, I couldn’t care less that the church doesn’t divulged every detail of its finances. It proves nothing, and only one who wants there to be something wrong would use it as such.
Personally, I have no doubt that even if they did make it all known people would still try to find some way to criticize the church for making money. It is inevitable.
Oh, and one last comment, made to all in general.
I have heard many Christians tell me directly that they believed in the once saved always saved doctrine. They have told me that once God has elected to save them then it doesn’t matter what they do, as they are saved. This is not a myth, as some would have us believe. It is a strong doctrine accepted by many.
I will admit that even those who accept it do encourage us to live righteously, but still admit that such does not matter.
So, let me ask a simple question of those here. If I received this gift of Faith from God, and he sees me as being perfect and remembers my sins no more; then I go and commit adultery with my best friends wife, and kill him to cover it up, am I still saved? It is a simple question. If I have already been saved, and then commit a horrible sin, am I still saved?
Shem,
As far as the money issues goes, Personally I dont care what the church does or does not do. Money does not prove the church true or false.
As far as Once saved always saved goes, I dont believe in that. But also some people believe if you claim to be saved, then do as you said, Commit adultery then commit Murder like you said, some people would say, It’s likely you were never saved. I do believe that.
But also on the issue of losing your salvation, My brother was a complete heathen who got saved, as a result he went to church every Sunday, he entered church sponsored Bible memory contests where he one awards for memorizing entire books of the Bible. He also lead at least one person to the Lord. He then played a part in me coming to know Jesus, I saw a great change and fruit in his life. My wife saw all of this also and no one can convince me he was not saved. Then one day about 8 years later he came to me and a friend who was an assistant pastor of a church and told us he was no longer a believer, he gave some lame excuse about a loving God would not allow a women to get raped, or a child to die at a young age, reasons like that. Ever since he started putting bumper stickers on his car like (No Gods, No masters) and (Nothing fails like prayer) While he was a believer He served in Church and had great love for people, Now he watches Porn, brews his own beer, and is a total God hater. I see zero reason to say he is saved. But thats just me, I dont as I said, (cont)
I wouldn’t go that far, Shem. Do I think that a lack of financial transparency is in itself proof that the LDS Church isn’t true? No. But considering the contrast to other Christian associations (whether at the congregational or denominational level), I do find it disappointing that the LDS Church as an institution does not seem to share a Christian concern with accountability as a discipline. I don’t think there’s likely any gross mismanagement there, nothing especially unsavory as compared to the American mainstream, but it might undercut many of the hyperbolic claims about how generous and charitable the LDS Church is in its focus, as an institution.
As for “once saved, only saved”, I – like Rick – don’t adhere to that view. But in all my experience with Christians from dozens of nations and countless theological backgrounds, I will say that don’t know if I can say that I’ve ever heard more than one or two at most use “once saved, always saved” as a justification for licentiousness. Maybe your area is filled with especially lousy Christians (or I’ve just had exceptional good fortune in moving in broad Christian circles), or maybe some of what they said was filtered through a mind primed to see antinomians around every corner labeled ‘grace’. Hard to say. As for your scenario, I won’t presume to judge the salvation of one who pulls a David like that. Perhaps it’s evidence they weren’t a Christian to start with; perhaps it’s evidence of a loss of true faith before the acts; perhaps it’s an egregious lapse. Whatever the case, I’d urge repentance and turning to Christ. There remains an offer of grace.