The Heidelberg Catechism was first published in 1563. Described as “a comforting, practical summary of the [Christian] faith,” the catechism has been used for nearly 450 years to teach and summarize biblical doctrines. Ligonier Ministries’ daily devotional, Tabletalk, is basing its 2012 course of study on the Heidelberg Catechism’s questions and answers, looking specifically at the biblical texts used to define the doctrinal teachings.
When Tabletalk addresses Question 22, “What is then necessary for a Christian to believe?” the ensuing discussion regarding orthopraxy and orthodoxy details yet another striking difference between Mormonism and the Christian faith. As has been amply demonstrated here at Mormon Coffee throughout the years of dialog between Mormons and Christians, Mormonism is a religion of orthopraxy – that is, it is much more concerned with right behavior than with what individual members believe. Conversely, Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy – concerned first with right belief, which leads to right behavior. From Tabletalk (2 March 2012, Vol. 36, No. 3):
What Faith Must Believe
The Christian faith, in contrast to other systems, puts a premium on belief. To be sure, belief is important to other monotheistic religions such as Judaism and Islam. Yet these religions are often known as “religions of orthopraxy,” or religions of right practice. Consistent with their merit-based views of salvation, these religions generally elevate the right performance of rituals over doctrinal precision and exactitude. Christianity, however, is historically a “religion of orthodoxy,” a religion of right belief. Creeds tend to be emphasized over rituals. Christians identify each other not by the number of daily prayers, the direction they face in worship, and so on, but by the content of what they believe.
Of course, we do not want to minimize the importance of right practice, for Scripture emphasizes the need to obey the Lord (Deut. 11; John 14:15). Nevertheless, there is a logical priority of belief over practice. Surely, what we do influences what we believe, but it is impossible to do what is truly right if we do not believe what is truly right. God puts a premium on our minds and our hearts because our thoughts and our loves determine who we are and what we do (1 Sam. 16:7; Ps. 26:2-3; Prov. 23:7; Isa. 26:3; Mark 12:28-30; Rom. 8:6; 12:2).
So, the Heidelberg Catechism is certainly correct to define people as Christians according to what they must believe – the gospel (Q&A 22). But what the catechism defines as the gospel is not simply the idea that we must believe in Jesus. After all, belief in Jesus cannot make us Christians if we do not believe in the right Jesus. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and even Muslims all claim to “believe in Jesus.” Yet only the biblical Jesus presented in the gospel saves sinners.
As we saw in a Mormon Coffee post earlier this year, though Mormonism appears “obsessed” with Christ, the Christ it promotes is actually a different Jesus. At the close of the Tabletalk article quoted above readers are encouraged to apply right belief as they live Coram Deo — “before the face of God”:
We can imitate the example of Jesus all we want, but if we do not believe the gospel, we do not know Him. The gospel is simple—we are to put our hope of salvation only in the Son, who was sent by the Father and who pours out His Spirit on His people. At the same time, it will take an eternity to unfold the depths of the gospel. Let us continually return to the gospel and what it tells us about our triune Creator.
And the greatest tragedy of all of this was that when investigated, in 1883 (four years before Sarah Kirkham ratted him out in 1887) he was found innocent by the First Presidency & the Quorum of the Twelve:
The First Presidency and Apostles met as per yesterdays adjournment at the Presidents Office at 10 o’clock A.M. Present Presidents John Taylor, George Q. Cannon, and Joseph F. Smith.–Apostles W. Woodruff, L. Snow, F.D. Richards, A. Carrington, B. Young, M. Thatcher and H.J. Grant. Councillors John W. Young and Daniel H. Wells, and secretaries L. John Nuttall and George Reynolds.
President W. Woodruff: I want to say to the First Presidency that we have been together as a Quorum since this mornings meeting except for one hour. We have had a free and full talk upon our individual affairs–upon our family matters and the Word of Wisdom, the duties and responsibilities which devolve upon us as Apostles etc. and we have come to the conclusion that we will more fully observe the Word of Wisdom, as we have all more or less been negligent upon that point–that we will conduct our personal lives and the affairs of our families in a more Christian manner in the future, and (p. 53) in conformity with our calling and high profession as Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. We examined into the reported criminality of Brother Carrington while in England, and have had a full explanation from him of these matters, and find there is no criminality to be attached to him, yet he was very unwise and inprudent in his course while abroad, which might have given cause for grave suspicions. Brother Carrington is also convinced that his conduct was not consistent with his calling as an Apostle.
So far as Brother Carrington is concerned I had received a letter from Brother John Henry Smith pertaining to some matters which I considered more a matter of inprudence and indiscretion rather than criminal. Yet I felt it proper to have the matter referred to you brethren of his Quorum for such consideration as you might think proper, and handed to Bro. F.D. Richards that you might see what the charges were.
Elder E. Snow stated that the Quorum had not seen the letter referred to, but that President Woodruff had made a statement in which he referred to the matters said to be contained in said letter, and upon which Bro. Carrington had made explanations. (p. 54)
President Joseph F. Smith stated that some time ago Bro. F.M. Lyman had been informed by one of the brethren returning from his mission from England that there was some misconduct between Brother Carrington and a certain sister while they were at Liverpool, which was very derrogatory to the character and position of an Apostle in charge of such an important mission. And he thought in justice to Brother Carrington that full investigation should be held, especially as he claims there was no criminality on his part.
Upon which by request of Elder Carrington said: These statements are very much mixed—Sister Kirkman (sic) was an orphan girl and a resident of Bolton. We needed an assistant housekeeper at 42 and as she appeared a suitable person we had her come to 42 as an assistant housekeeper. She was not very strong and we soon found that cooking did not agree with her, hence she did the work about the house–and when she was not so engaged I gave her the priviledge of the prayer room whenever she pleased, and at her leisure to knit, sow, read, etc. and when it did not interfere with the business of the office. She was a woman very free to chat and talk and make herself agreeable, as English women are; but as I thought it gave no cause for any suspicion as to her conduct.
After hearing the statements of Brother Carrington, the President asked the brethren present if they were still willing to accept and approve Bro. Carrington, to which they assented. President Taylor called a vote on the question[:] Are the Twelve and the Councillors willing to receive and approve of the First Presidency and of the Quorum of the Twelve and their councillors now present; and the First Presidency to receive and approve of the members of the Twelve Apostles and the councillors present. All voted in the affirmative.~Salt Lake City School of the Prophets Minute Book, September 22, 1883.
Where was their “power of discernment”? (D&C 46)
Grindael
Now you have joined the masses of the ignorant.
First, what are you talking about with your 2nd anointing? It seems you are merely referring to the fact that this man was rebaptized. If that is so than who cares? If he was repentant than nothing prevents such. You obviously don’t understand the concept of repentance and forgiveness. Yeah, you quote a lot, and seem to think this proves something, and all it proves is that you don’t have a clue.
Murder and blaspheming the Holy Spirit are the only things that will forever prevent one from entering the Celestial Kingdom. This man did neither, and so the opportunity for repentance was there.
However, his other blessings were never recealed, and thus he never regained exaltation, though he may enter the Celestial Kingdom, having been rebaptized.
As to being buried in the Temple clothes, the family had already gotten permission, before his death, to have him ordained so that such was possible. His death does not negate this fact. Thus he was treated as if he had been so ordained. Perfectly in line with the doctrines of salvation for the dead.
Rick
There is no verse in the Bible that calls salvation a gift. It refers to the Grace of God as being a gift, and by that grace salvation is made possible.
However, a gift may be free, and yet may be earned. In the movie, would she have given him the gift if he had not been helping her? The gift was free. He did not work for it, or pay for it. But it was given because of what he had already done for her. Think about it.
Shem said
Please back this up from the Bible? It simply is not taught in the Bible. According to the Bible we are all guilty of Murder, so theirfore according to you, non can be saved.
Again we also know King David was a murder. And so was Moses, And Even Saul who later became Paul, he killed people. The Bible says, ALL WHO CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED, This does not say, people who murder cannot be saved.
The Bible also says, IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, WE WILL BE FORGIVEN. That verse does not say, People who committed murder cannot confess. So this poses a problem if your right.
Ignorance is bliss I guess. Perhaps you should wait until Monday when Sharon posts an article about this subject. I did not know it was scheduled to go up, or I would have waited to make my comments. I’ll pick this up on that thread on Monday.
Until then, perhaps you should do some research. You obviously don’t understand anything about calling and election, 2nd Anointings or the sealing power. Yes, ignorance is bliss I guess.
Grindael,
I find it funny that you say to Shem, Ignorance is bliss. More times than Not I would agree since Mormons are very ignorant of their teachings, But on the other hand, You would know better than most Mormons, JS taught, a man cannot be saved in ignorance.
So I wonder How mormon feel they can be saved when they are so ignorant of their teachings.
Rick,
Having been dialoging with Mormons now for five years (beginning right here on MC) I am still amazed at how little most Mormons know about their church. It’s sad, and sinister.
Grindael, keep up the good work . From what I have discovered in Mormonism relative to the
discernment of it’s leaders is this : they have been misled enough on important issues that
their followers should look else where for more consistent trustworthy guidance in spiritual
matters . Mormons have placed themselves in a very spiritually dangerous position by trusting
these men in following them to the extent to which they do . Mormon authorities say that they
discern certain impressions they feel to be the ” whisperings of the Holy Spirit” , and so their
followers trust that spiritual experience because of the position leaders occupy . Not only are
Mormons misled by following their leadership in doctrinal matters , but many of these rank
and file members have been misled financially by trusting those in lower level leadership
positions such as Bishops. Because of the prevelance of scams in Utah , Newsweek Mag . once
asked the question , ” What makes the folks in Utah so gullible ? ” According to an article in the
Ogden Standard Examiner [ 6-26-1983 ] , authorities dubbed Utah the, ” fraud capital of the
world” . The Phoenix Gazette [ 8-30-1986 ,section D p3] declares, ” Mormons easily defrauded
BYU researcher finds” . A major reason is that Mormons place a high trust in those within
church circles , according to the article .
All this points to the fact that despite their claims to the contrary Mormon leaders are not any
more gifted with discernment in spiritual matters than the Baptist pastor down the road, and that
rank and file members have placed themselves in a spiritually unhealthy situation by trusting
in that discernment . Also rank and file members have been misled by lower level leaders
and friends because of trusting what these also claim are “whisperings of the Spirit ” .
Bottom line : Mormonism is’nt the answer .
Rick
I am not going to argue the point again. Killing is not necessarily murder, and until you figure that out you will never have a clue as to what the Bible actually teaches.
Matthew 12: 32 “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
No forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Ghost, and no exceptions. (see also Mark 3: 29 and Luke 12: 10)
1 John 3: 15 “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
A murderer does not have eternal life, and thus they cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom.
Grindael
Oh, I know the doctrine very well. It is explained in detail in D&C 132, and is mentioned in a number of other places. The more sure word of prophecy, or having your calling and election made sure, is a well-established doctrine. There is no ambiguity in this.
However, in your comments you were not describing this doctrine. You made no mention of it, or were trying to equate it with Rebaptism, which is not accurate.
In other words, you have failed to prove that Brother Carrington had had his calling and election made sure. You presented it as if him being rebaptized constituted having this blessing, and in so doing have shown your ignorance as to the doctrine. That was my point.
I look forward to seeing how accurate Sharon is with the doctrine. Hopefully more accurate than you.
Shem,
I dont care if you believe Murder someone or not, You have not exactly answered my question. It’s great that you post a couple of verses, but that proves what? You read a verse in the Bible.
Lets see, according to the Bible we are all guilty of Murder, So since we are all guilty of Murder, and according to the verses you posted, How can you ever enter the Celestial Kingdom? Then as I said, King David did commit murder, and so Did the apostle Paul, According to what you believe are the in Heaven? If so how is that possible since they are guilty of murder? If not, then How can God say of David, David is the apple of His eye, and then as far as Paul Goes, How could he have visions of Him entering Heaven and being WITH God if Murders cannot enter heaven?
Please show me from sources where I’ve been un-accurate. I’d love to see them. (Not your opinion – hard sources please), and then show comparisons. Please back up what you say with facts.
I’ll be waiting.
P.S. Carrington had his Second Anointings. You only need to have them once. Rebaptism is another doctrine, that was done many, many times on living people that were still members in good standing. Or didn’t you know that either?
P.P. S. And I didn’t even get into the doctrine of the 2nd Anointing. There is much more to it. But ignorance is bliss I guess.
Grindael
You have failed to show a reference that said Carrington had this blessing of his Calling and Election made sure, and that is my point.
I have never heard of it referred to as Second Anointing, and in all the references you give the only thing that Carrington is said to have had was Rebabtism, and then re ordination as an Elder. None of this shows that he had his Calling and Election made sure. You use this man as an example, but fail to prove that he actually had this blessing.
You have been inaccurate in that you have equated Carrington’s rebaptism with having his Calling and Election Made sure.
Rick
Paul did not commit any murders. It is as simple as that. Until you stop trying to make killing and murder synonymous you will never understand this.
David has fallen from his exaltation and will only inherit a Telestial Glory.
I looked up the word apple in the Bible, and the only time it appears in reference to David is in a Psalm written be David before he sinned in killing Uriah. Thus it does not apply.
Finally, the Bible never once says that we are all guilty of Murder. I have seen some erroneous misinterpretations of James 2: 10 that attempt to make the Bible teach this, but they are false understandings that do not truly understand the words of this great man.
Shem,
Paul did murder people, He had believers put to death for following Jesus before He was saved By God. You need to search out History to see this, Then we are all guilty of Murder. The Bible clearly teaches that if we broke even ONE LAW, We are GUILTY of BREAKING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
So the Bible says, we are guilty of breaking every law, that means we are guilty of murder.
Do you know why Hitler Killed Jews? He said They killed Jesus, So how could someone who lived a few hundred years ago Kill someone who lived a few thousand years ago?
We all Put Jesus on that Cross, it was yours and My sin that put Jesus one that cross, He died for us before we were even born. He was an innocent man and we had Him killed, that means we are guilty of Murder.
Also as to King David, His son that died right after Birth, do you believe he went into the highest Heaven? If so, then how do you explain King David Saying His son cannot come back to him, but He will go to him? David believes He will be in heaven with His son. He does not say and the Bible does not teach there are 3 different levels of Heaven as you believe. I know the verse you use to make this doctrine, But the Bible does not teach 3 levels of heaven and who goes there and who cannot and all the details of what they hold and everything else you guys teach.
RICK
Once again you know nothing.
I never once said that Paul never killed anyone. He did. But this was not murder. I will say nothing else until you have learned that killing is not always murder.
As to all of us being murderers, you are basing this on a false understanding of James 2: 10, as I have already stated. So, your entire argument is false from the beginning. And I love your use of Hitler to prove your point. Great source. Very Reliable.
The Bible most certainly teaches multiple levels of Heaven, and does so in more than one place. We do not take just a single verse.
David’s hopes of seeing the child again does not prove anything.
P.S. I didn’t equate his rebaptism with his calling & election or 2nd anointings. This article should be sufficient to explain the “fullness of the priesthood”, or calling and election, which is the 2nd Anointing.
And if you have doubts that the 2nd Anointing (Anointed to BE a King & Priest or the FULFILMENT of the promise of the 1st Anointing or 1st Endowment) is having your calling and election made sure, than read Joseph Smith’s March 10, 1844 discourse where he explains that,
Shem said
Your the one that knows nothing and does not know the difference. I believe you know I am correct, but the problem is, if you admit I am right it will severely mess with your beliefs in Mormonism.
Go back and read what Jesus went through, Was he murdered or Killed? He was murdered, The Bible records Jesus saying to the religious leaders that they were trying to kill him, They denied it and told Jesus he was crazy.
It is murder because they sought him out, planned to kill him and gave Him a bunch of Illegal trials, Then even the Roman government found Him NOT GUILTY. So Yes it was murder.
The When Stephen was killed, Why was he killed? That was not simply an accident, Opps, we stoned him to death, sorry Stephen, we did not mean that. No Shem, He was murdered. Saul (Paul) Verly likely was involved in both. Then the Bible tells us Saul (Paul) went about persecuting the saints, Dragging them from Home and family, the saints feared Him. It was very likely He killed them.
And if he did kill them or simply allowed it, it was murder, not just a mere accidental Killing, he sought them out and went after them, Thats Murder.
Go back and read the OT and read about the Cities of refuge. If it was an accident when you killed someone you could live there and be sparred, If it was Murder then you would be turned over to the avenger of blood and punished.
And it details what was murder verse just a mere killing. But I know you Shem, You will insist I am wrong, and thats fine, I know you hate the Gospel and love darkness and your false prophet, so you just keep believing what you want.
Rick
I know all this, and it changes nothing. Murder is not merely killing the innocent. It is the killing the innocent while knowing they were innocent.
We do not know if Paul was involved in the death of Christ, and I highly doubt he was (I think he would have been mentioned). He was involved in the death of Stephen, but to his mind Stephen was guilty of Blaspheme, which is punishable by death under the Law of Moses. Thus, to him, he was merely carrying out God’s law in executing a blasphemous person. The same is true of all the other saints he hunted down.
This is the thing you are failing to grasp about what constitutes murder. You do not take into account the thoughts and perceptions of the person, but only the action itself. God judges on the heart, and will reward our works based on our desires. This is both just and merciful.
I cling to the light, which is why I reject what you claim. I know God and his ways, which is why I know that you are wrong. I follow a true prophet of God, which is why I can testify that you do not know what the gospel is.
Grindael
Thank you for the reference. That gives more evidence than just your claims. As to my perceptions, I have never heard the term of Second Anointing, and the Fullness of the Priesthood is not commonly used to describe having your calling and election made sure. Sorry for the mistake.
Shem said
Shem, I believe Saul was there for Jesus trail, Saul was a high ranking Religious leader and tell us all about his degree’s.
Then If you try and say, well Stephen was not innocent and in the mind of the jews deserved to die because he was guilty of Blaspheme, then that means Jesus was guilty of the same thing.
In reality we know Jesus never lied or Blasphemed, but the Jews claimed He did, so for them that was good enough for them to Kill Jesus, and as we know they even lied about plotting to Kill him. When you plot to kill someone, then claim your not, but then do kill someone after that, it is murder.
Also your wrong about Stephen saying that if he did Blaspheme then according to Jewish law that was punishable by death, well I hate to break the bad news, but show me where Stephen got a trial fair or not? Show me where two witness’s testified about him, none of this happened, so yes it was murder.
Even if they gave him a trial and found him guilty, then we could say, that was killing according to OT law, But no trials are mentioned, so it was murder, plain and simple.
Rick
No, Stephen did not have a trial, but then the OT law did not actually require one. There were enough witnesses there that such was established without a trial. For a residence read the story of Phinehas (Numbers 25) killing the man who had taken a Midianite to wife. He gave the man no trial, but was praised for his willingness to obey the law.
Now, to Saul Stephen was guilty, and likely to many others present. As to Christ, many who were present likely believed him guilty. However, the leaders knew who he was, and yet still killed him. Those who instigated the mobs against him, who plotted his death, knew that he was the Son of God. That is why they had to get false witnesses, because they knew he was innocent. The general population did not have this same understanding, and nor did the Romans that were ordered to execute him.
So, those who plotted his death, seeking out false witness in order to make themselves look in the right, are guilty of murdering Christ. Those who simply followed their lead, believing that Christ was guilty, not necessarily.
Now, you can believe that Paul was at the trial of Christ all you want. You can’t prove it, and so I am still free to not agree with you on this point.
Like I said Shem, You really dont want to hear the truth since It will mess with your theology.
The OT in really a mute issue, I brought it up since you mentioned it, but in reality the Jews had no authority to sentence any one to death regardless of them deserving it or not.
The Romans took their authority away from them, that was why they needed to hand Jesus over to the Romans and have them crucify Him. So by them killing Stephen not only was it murder, but they broke Roman law also.
It may have broken Roman Law, but that still does not make it murder.
Shem, I know you love your fantasy world, But sadly if the law says you cannot kill someone, or it says, you cannot execute someone, then yes it is murder if you do it.
One of the biggest differences between what you believe and what I believe, or better yet, your god vs my GOD, is forgiveness.
My God can and does and will forgive people who murder, My God can and will for give people like Hitler, Stalin, Bundy, Ed Gein, And others.
Your god will not and cannot do that. Also Mormonism teaches that the shed blood of jesus cannot forgive some sins. So Your god is both false and impotent.
My God who shed His Blood, did it for the whole entire world, and is willing to forgive all who come to Him and seek forgiveness.
Rick
Your last comment just shows that you don’t know anything about our doctrine.
Murder can and will be forgiven. The only sin that is unforgivable is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. What I murderer cannot receive in the blessings of heaven that others can.
Forgiveness as reward are two very different things.
And the difference between the true God and the one you worship is not forgiveness, for God is willing to forgive all things to those who seek him. The true difference is justice. Your God sacrifices justice in the name of forgiveness. The true God forgives, but still meets out a just penalty or reward. That is the difference.
Shem said
Ok Shem, I guess because you said I am ignorant and no nothing it must be true. Then you said Murder can be forgiven. So I guess when YOUR SCRIPTURE sates No forgiveness for murder, in this life or the next, then either I am really ignorant, or your the ignorant one.
D and C 132:
D and C 42
Thirteenth president Spencer Kimball wrote, “The Prophet Joseph Smith underlined the seriousness of the sin of murder for David as for all men, and the fact that there is no forgiveness for it” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 128,
Apostle Bruce McConkie said that, for murderers, “there is no forgiveness, neither in this world nor in the world to come” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 292)
So Shem, Since your so smart, and Murder according to you can be forgiven, please tell me how all these scriptures and people teach otherwise? What am I missing? Why do you seem to contradict your prophets, teachers and scriptures?
Rick
I don’t contradict them. I understand them.
D&C 132: 27 is speaking of blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, and lists to qualifications for it. One is murder, and the other is accenting to the death of Christ. It requires both to count as this unforgivable sin. Not all murderers accent to the death of Christ (like David).
TPJS: This actually shows that at least some level of forgiveness was attained, as David did have the promise that he would not be left in Hell.
Seek Ye Earnestly does not say it is unforgiveable, but that forgiveness is difficult, and requires the shedding of the guilty person’s own blood.
Spencer W. Kimbal and Bruce R. McConkie are refering us back to what Joseph Smith said in the first quote you give, in which Joseph Smith clearly shows a measure of forgiveness attained by David.
You see, I understand things. It has been said that it is unforgiveable, meaning that once committed one cannot receive a forgiveness sufficient to allow entrance into a higher kingdom of Glory. It cannot be done. A murderer can attain the Telestial Kingdom, but can rise to farther. This is a measure of forgiveness, but not complete forgiveness.
In other words, they can be forgiven and be brought out of Hell, but they can never receive the rewards of heaven that are open to others.
D&C 79: 35-38
“Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.”
Only those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost will not be redeemded by the Lord. All others will be redeemed and enter heaven, and thus they will all receive some measure of forgiveness. Which is why the scriptures also state that “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.” (Matthew 12: 31)
You do not understand our doctrine.
Shem,
It is clear that when your scripture says, No forgiveness in this world or the world to come and you find ways to twist that, that it makes me wonder about you.
Also it shows you serve a weak and impotent god when your prophets have stated that the blood of Christ cannot cleanse some sins and man must shed his own blood. That is a real blasphemous doctrine that comes straight from the pit of hell, Your church taught it, believes it and you admitted to it, but then you claim your church never changed doctrine. That is one doctrine that changed.Your church does not openly teach and admit that like they did. Show me that doctrine from the Bible, or that the apostles taught and believed that.
Rick
It is clear that you don’t like to be proven wrong, as you usually ignore it when it happens.
A murderer will be redeemed, as the scriptures clearly testify, but only after paying the price of their sins (Matthew 5: 21-26; 3 Nephi 12: 21-26). Maybe forgiveness is not the right word for it, but I think it conveys the idea adequately. They will not suffer the second death, but will be redeemed by the Lord.
As to our God, I am thankful for all that He is willing to do, and what He is not willing to do. As I said before, the difference is not in their ability to forgive, but their willingness to meet out justice. Your God is not just, and never has been. My God is perfectly just, as well as perfectly merciful. It is just that in order for him to be just there are some sins which he cannot just cover over, as such would be an injustice.
There is nothing weak here. It is truly a strong person who can deal justly with all things. It is the weak who sacrifice justice in favor of mercy.
Shem,
In reality you serve satan, He is your god. Read the Bible, do you know what the Bible gives as a reason for Satan being cast out of Heaven? It was not for giving A bad plan of salvation. Satans sin was PRIDE.
Mormons suffer with the same thing. They take pride in the fact that they think they are god matariel.
Satan tried to exalt himself above God, Satan wanted to be worshiped, Mormons hope for the same.
Also despite what you say or believe, My God forgives all sin, yours does not, Read your Bible, You cannot show me from the Bible where God say, I will forgive all sin but, Murder, Or if you call upon the name of the Lord you will be saved, Unless…
Or as the Bible says, If you confess your sins I will forgive, Unless…
It simply does not teach that. But you go ahead and serve satan and take pride in thinking you will be a god someday. When you die and hear Jesus say, I never knew you, Depart from me your worker of Evil, then you try and tell Him He is wrong and You read His word and know it because you followed the false prophet Joseph and his father Lucfier.
Rick
You can think what you want, but the Bible clearly states that there is one sin that will never be forgiven.
Matthew 12: 31-32
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
Mark 3: 28-29
“Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”
Luke 12: 10
“And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”
So, Christ himself has stated that there is one sin that can never be forgiven, and the ancient apostles thought it important enough to record it three different times. Now, I have heard people say that this refers to those who don’t believe, but this does not fit because if they turn from their unbelief then it is forgiven them, and yet this sin cannot be forgiven.
Then we have 1 John 3: 15 that tells us “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
No murderer hath eternal life. It does not make an exception. No murderer can have eternal life.
The Bible is actually very clear on this point, but you seem to ignore it in favor of your doctrine.
As to pride, did anyone ever say that Satan was cast out for advocating a different plan? No. He was cast out for seeking the exalt himself above God and take God’s throne. His plan was simply his method of trying to do so, or the actions that proved his desires.
We have no desire to exalt ourselves above God, or to take his throne. We have only a desire to serve him and do as he has instructed. He has promised exaltation to those who do so. We could never exalt ourselves, but he can, and will, if we prove ourselves worthy.
Shem,
I am one of those people who teach and believe that not believing in Jesus is the sin that cannot be forgiven. You claim that is wrong since you feel if you believe then that will change things.
Well I know you do not like reading the Bible and feel it is not translated correctly unless your false prophets say it is correct, but here is what the Bible says.
So it seems that people claim to know Him, yet He claims to not know them. But I know you wont believe that when He says Depart from me, they are being cast into hell.
Now add to that, but if someone claims they dont believe in Jesus and want nothing to do with Him, why would God all off a sudden say, well I know you did not believe in me, but thats ok I will allow you into heaven anyway.
What about Paul and Gal 1:8-9 say this,
So if Paul says they can go to hell, then why would God allow them to teach false doctrine and lead people astray and then let them into heaven anyway? Plus that goes against what Jesus says when He claims people will here Him say, I never knew you.
Then Paul says this, 1Cr 16:22
So if someone does not Love the Lord, then they will go to hell, so this does not line up with everyone will be forgiven.
I find it funny that you quote this verse
No murderer hath eternal life. It does not make an exception. No murderer can have eternal life.
This verse says Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer, I said before that we are all guilty of murder and you did not like that, but we all at one time or another have hated someone, and even if you claim, you never hated your brother, I know many people who have been guilty of hating someone and theirfore are guilty of Murder. No exceptions as you said.
Then When Jesus was crucified the People who were behind having Him Killed and the people who did it were guilty of Murder. And guess what Jesus said? Father Forgive them, so If He said to people were murdering Him, Forgive them, then yes people who are murders can be forgiven.
Then to go along with 1 john the Bible says,
Well according to that verse, more than just people who commit murder will be cast into the lake of Fire which is the SECOND DEATH. It seems these are not forgiven since they face the second death.
Their is much more in Scripture that teaches ALL sin will and can be forgiven, the only sin that wont be forgiven is Unbelief. Unbelief can be in the form of atheists claiming God is not real and does not exist, or Following false prophets, teachers, wolves in sheeps clothing, and theirfore believeing in a gospel and jesus that is not real.
Rick
I never said the unbelieving wouldn’t go to hell. What I said is that unbelief is not unforgivable. This is clearly seen in that fact that many unbelieving people have turned around, found faith, and received a forgiveness for that unbelief.
Take Paul for example: He did not believe in Christ, and persecuted those that did. Then he had his vision, turned to faith, and had his previous unbelief forgiven.
So, if the one unforgivable sin is unbelief, then how is it that Paul was forgiven his unbelief when he repented?
In other words, your theories do not agree with the scriptures.
As to all the other things, I understand your doctrine, but I will also say that I do not think it squares with the Bible in anyway.
I do not agree with your interpretation of James 2: 10, as I have mentioned. James is not saying that we are all guilty of everything. What he is saying is that if we are guilty of one sin, and we do not repent, then we might as well be guilty of all, for we will not enter into the Kingdom of God. It is like the one story I once heard of the woman who said “I don’t believe God will keep my out of heaven because of one cup of coffee a day.” To this her teacher replied, “Just consider that God is in heaven saying sadly ‘I can’t believe she is refusing to return home just for one cup of coffee a day’.”
We cannot hold unto any sin. We cannot say that because I am righteous in these other areas God will overlook my one fault that I don’t want to change. If we have this attitude of non-repentance for even one sin then all our repentance for every other sin will avail us nothing.
When Christ said “Father forgive them…” he was talking about the Roman soldiers who did not have an understanding, and were the ones immediately responsible for his pain and death. He was not talking about the Jews who knew better but were killing him out of hatred.
Speaking of Matthew 7, note that in verse 21 he states that it is those who do the will of his Father that will enter the kingdom. Verses 22 and 23 are talking of those who believe in Christ, but do not do that which is required. It is not talking about those who lack a belief in Christ.
Shem, I dont know if you really understand and reject the truth for a lie, or if you really are that ignorant?
Your partly right, if we dont believe in God then we can confess and believe and be saved. But if we die while not believing or rejecting God, then we cannot be saved. I know LDS reject that, but the Bible says that after we die, then the Judgment, Not, after death, we can get prayed into a different level of heaven.
Also the Bible says we are enemies of God.
It was not until after Jesus died that we could be saved.
Also the Bible Says Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This DOES NOT SAY, Only people who murder cannot. It says ALL, SO tell me Shem, does ALL mean or, or is it Symbolic like Yesterday and really mean something else?
Shem,
Have you read these verses? The apostle Paul said this to the crowd of People that the Romans needed to save him. This was when he was sharing How the Lord spoke to him while on the road.
Acts 22:4 says
He was involved in killing people who Followed Jesus, he also threw some into Jail. When he was involved in killing them, this was Murder, he had no reason to be chasing them down.
Then acts and Paul goes onto say this,
Now Jesus was in Heaven at this time, so when He said to Paul, why are you persecuting me, How could Jesus say that since Jesus was in Heaven and Paul was not physically persecuting Jesus.
It seems to imply, if you persecute the People of God, then you persecute God/Jesus.
Now Paul goes onto say
So yes Paul was involved in the murder of Stephen, And after all of this and much more that is not recorded God/Jesus Forgave Paul and used Him. So Yes Shem, from what the Bible says, and there is so much more that we could keep going on for days, that God does and can and will forgive people who commit murder.
If this is not enough and I suspect it wont be, go read the Book of Jonah. Tell me what you find in reading that book?
Rick
“It was not until after Jesus died that we could be saved.”
Are you saying that no one who was born and died before Christ can be saved? I ask merely for clarification. I believe completely that without the atonement of Christ no one can be saved, but I also believe that the effects of the atonement are retroactive, in that they apply to all men who ever lived on this earth, no matter what time period. Do you agree?
“But if we die while not believing or rejecting God, then we cannot be saved.”
But if we die in any sin we cannot be saved, and so there is nothing unique in unbelief. Beyond this, the scriptures say that Blaspheming the Holy Ghost is unforgivable even in this life, not just in the life to come. In other words, once one commits this sin there is no more chance for repentance, for there is no forgiveness for it. This does not describe unbelief, nor does it actually describe anything in your doctrine, but is rejected by you. Thus you have rejected at least this portion of the scriptures.
Romans 10: 13
I agree with this verse completely. Look at the example of David, one who truly committed murder and then cried to the Lord. He received a salvation from Hell, as he testifies to in Psalms 16: 10. But there are many levels of salvation, for we will all receive our reward according to our works; those who are righteous receiving a greater reward than those who are wicked. Thus the murderer will be forgiven and receive salvation from the Second Death, but he will not receive of the same reward as the righteous, for the murderer hath not eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3: 15) as the righteous do.
Speaking of Paul, once again he committed no murder. Do I need to explain it once again? I thought I made it clear. To Paul these people were guilty of blaspheme and thus their execution was in accordance with the Law of Moses, which he firmly believed in.
Please get this strait: Murder is not simply killing someone, or even killing the innocent. It is killing the innocent while knowing they are innocent. Paul was not guilty of this, for he believed them guilty.
Shem said
Let me re-word this, or clarify what I said.
Before the death and Resurrection Of Jesus, people were not saved in the sense that we say, I’m saved by the Blood of the Lamb. They were not born again, They died but they went to Abraham’s bosom while waiting for Jesus to come and die.
Shem, I know you hate the truth, and I really feel sorry for you, but unbelief cannot be forgiven. Have you read the Bible? Jesus take belief very serious, as does God the father.
If we reject Jesus and what He did for us do you really believe Jesus will say to those people after death, I know you denied me and denied my existence, you even claimed you wanted nothing to do with me, but I forgive you, enter into my rest.
I guess that means you never read this,
If Jesus Deny’s you then that means your not getting into heaven. Also Denying God does not just come in the form of Atheism, it comes by believing in a false, made up jesus, such as LDS have or the JW’s or any other religion that either deny’s Jesus or has some other way into heaven. Remember Jesus said. John 10:1
Jesus says that He is the Way, the Truth, The Life. Any other way and your a robber or a thief.
Shem said
You really dont understand the Bible do you? David did not avoid hell, their is two parts to Hell, the compartment where the dead go while waiting for the judgment and Abraham’s Bosom. You can read the account of Jesus talking about the rich man who died and went to torment, and Lazarus who died and went to Abraham’s bosom. After Jesus rose from the dead the graves were opened and it was the people who came out as the Bible says. David was not going to Stay in Abraham’s bosom.
Shem said
You made it clear, I understand what your saying, and what I am saying is, I dont agree with you, Paul did commit murder. It was not a matter of Paul following an OT law, as I said, they had no place to execute someone, Rome took that ability away, and theirfore would be breaking Roman law.
Even our laws state that the Government cannot simply execute people and if they do it is murder. We call this assassination. We cannot legally kill them, so we send people to do it under cover of Night or what ever means possible.
Shem,
I want to add a few more things.
You claim Saul was simply following the OT law by killing these people.
Well did you read the account of the women caught in adultery and brought before Jesus?
It said
They could according to the law stone her, I also understand this was a trap set for Jesus, But I see this as attempted Murder also. If They stoned her it would be murder, Why? Well were was the Guy? You cant comment adultery if your by yourself, so they set her up to be caught and would stone just her to get to Jesus, yet Jesus knew this and replied, He who is with out sin cast the first stone.
So They would kill her according to the law, yet really they set her up and would murder her.
But since you will not agree, here is a even better one.
Jesus said this to the religious leaders,
Theses guys killed prophets, there fathers killed prophets, It also was not merely killing them, they murdered them, why? They did not like what they were saying, Jesus later says, the prophets blood will be on their hands, So are you going to try and tell me, they guys and there fathers simply believed the prophets were blaspheming and then could legally be killed (Stoned) according to OT law? It seems Feels differently.
Again, the Bible says, ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Jesus said, He died for ALL. So are you telling me ALL does not mean ALL, it only means everyone but people who murder?
Is ALL merely symbolic like yesterday, That really was on the most stupid things I have ever heard. Be Honest, you just made that up. You cannot show me where an official teaching from a prophet said that. If anyone else said it, then both show me, and explain how it can be trusted when as you yourself said, Only Prophets can state doctrine, everything else is mere opinion on the behalf of a person. You really want to believe a false prophet so badly you just start doing as he did, making things up as you go. Wow. Enjoy your eternal Darkness. As Jude teaches, Because it will be a real bummer.
Rick
Be careful. You are coming dangerously close to affirming LDS doctrine.
“They died but they went to Abraham’s bosom while waiting for Jesus to come and die.”
“their is two parts to Hell, the compartment where the dead go while waiting for the judgment and Abraham’s Bosom.”
These statements sound an awful lot like the spirit world. I find it odd that you call Abraham’s Bosom Hell, but that is understandable. Actually, as far as these comments go I agree. I think I disagree in that I see you saying that after Christ was resurrected this temporary hell, as you call it, is no longer used, but people simply go strait to Heaven of Hell. I think that all who die first go to this temporary place of spirits, and there receive a temporary judgment to eaither the Hell (Prison as Peter calls it) or Paradise (Abraham’s bosom).
As to David, I never said he avoided Hell altogether. Only that he has the promise that he will be saved from it eventually. As all murderers will take part in the second death, but will eventually be redeemed of God, as I mentioned earlier.
Speaking of unbelief, you really seem to be ignoring everything I am saying, so let us try again. In this life, before a man dies, can he turn from his unbelief to faith and gain a forgiveness of his previous unbelief? Please answer this question, as until you do there is no point in me continuing to repeat myself over and over.
“what I am saying is, I dont agree with you”
That is just fine. You don’t have to agree with me. But you disagreeing with me does not pose a problem for me or the doctrine of the LDS church. If all you are doing is disagreeing than the conversation is over.
Though, personally, I think you are right with the story of the adulteress and the killing of the prophets. However, these things were not said to Paul. They were said to the Pharisees that sought Christ’s life, and Paul is never mentioned as being one of them. This detail I think would have been mentioned if it were true, especially considering the fact that he recounts his previous dealings with the saints on more then one occasion and never mentions having direct dealings with Christ. As you quoted earlier, when Christ appeared to him he questioned the appearance on the grounds that he had assented to the death of Stephen. I think being among those that Christ called murderers, and that later killed Christ, would be a larger point of concern, and yet it is never mentioned.
In other words, we cannot convict Paul for the acts of other men. They were murderers, yes. Paul wasn’t.
From Mormon Doctrine
Beginning and End
“Christ is the Beginning and the End. (D. & C. 35:1; 38:1; 45:7; 54:1; 61:1; 84:120; Rev. 1:8-17; 21:6;
22:13.) These are English words having substantially the same meaning as the Greek Alpha and Omega.
The thought conveyed is one of timelessness, of a being who is the Beginning and the End because his “course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday and forever.” (D. & C. 35:1.) He was God “in the beginning” (John 1:1-3); he is God now; he will be God in the “end,” that is to all eternity. The beginning is the pre-existent eternity that went before; the end is the immortal eternity that is to come.”
Note that the Beginning and the End carries the same meaning as “Yesterday, today, and forever.”
Also note that the Beginning is our pre-existance, and the end is our exaltation.
It is similar to this one.
Everlasting to Everlasting
“By gaining exaltation – which includes the fulness of the Father and “a continuation of the seeds forever and ever” – men become “gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue.” (D. & C. 132:19-20.) That is, those who gain eternal increase, who have unending spirit children in the resurrection, have thereby become from everlasting to everlasting.
Because of their eternal progeny they continue everlastingly without end; from eternity to eternity they are the same; and being perfected and exalted beings, their course never varies, nor is there shadow of turning to the right or the left.”
Thus we see that the pre-existant eternity before this life encompasses our spirit life, while the etrnity after this life encompasses the spirit life of our children.
I realize that Mormon Doctrine is not an official publication, but unless you can show me a quote from an official source that contradicts this explanation than you have no logical argument against it.
Shem said
No I’m Not, I see it like this, If we agree on something, it is because the Bible taught it first and JS ripped it off.
We could agree that marriage is good, or lying is wrong, that does not mean I am affirming LDS doctrine, The Bible taught that first and JS just tossed it into his mix of false doctrine. We see accounts in the BIBLE of Satan mixing truth with lies, and a demon possessed slave girl announcing what Paul was going to do. Does that mean Satan and the demon are saved? Or believers?
Shem said I think I disagree in that I see you saying that after Christ was resurrected this temporary hell, as you call it, is no longer used, but people simply go strait to Heaven of Hell.
I think that all who die first go to this temporary place of spirits, and there receive a temporary judgment to eaither the Hell (Prison as Peter calls it) or Paradise (Abraham’s bosom).
Well the Bible says otherwise.
Shem said
Well I guess you ignored the Bible and what I quoted if you feel this way. The Bible says
The Bible mentions more than just people who murder as going to take part in the second death.
This poses a problem for you. Who would cowards partake of the second death? Why would liars? Or unbelieving, or all the others? Notice on that list, Cowards, (fearful) and unbelieving and abominable are three before murders. Why is that? If people who murder so vile and bad, why do cowards and unbelievers make the list before people who murder?
It’s really simple, the order really does not matter, in Gods Eyes, sin is sin, all sin is equal.
Shem said
Shem, I am not ignoring what you said, your ignoring what the Bible says, so lets try this again, The Bible says, UNBELIEVERS will have their place in the lake of fire, which is the second death. The Bible said that, not me.
Shem said
Do you ignore what I say, I already answered this question. So lets try this again.
Does an atheist Believe in God? The answer is no, they do not. Can an atheist turn to Jesus, confess His or her sin before death and be saved? The answer is yes. How do I know? The Bible says so.
If they die as an atheist will they go to the lake of fire simply for not believing in Jesus? Yes, how do I know, The Bible says so. Why is this so hard Shem? Simple, it messes with your doctrinal belief.
As far as Paul goes, He might never say in the Bible he knew or saw Jesus, but from My understanding of Church History and what the Bible says, it seems he had dealings with Jesus. Paul gives accounts of when he was Saul and how high ranking he was. His words are, He was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He bragged about all he knew and how he pretty much out ranked everyone. So if you dont believe he had some say in these dealings, then thats fine. But it seems he knew Jesus it’s not like were talking a MM verses a prophet.
I suspect a MM would not know much about whats going on in the top ranks of the church, but the prophet would. Your just a little MM, Saul would have been like the prophet in terms of his ranking. For Him not to know or meet Jesus or have a say in many of these matters is beyond rare.
More later.
Shem said
I find it funny that you quote non official sources and yet when when Non-LDS do that, we are told we cannot. Also how about you show me all of what you said and believe from the Bible? You cannot do it, so instead you must use the words of some man who most LDS no longer use or trust and expect me to believe you?
Also I trust God and what He said over you. God said there were NO GODS Before Him and none will come after Him. So we cannot become gods.
Wrong. He tells us that he was part of them and acted under their direct authority. So Rick, you are spot on about Paul. Perhaps this will help, for Paul here admits to murder, and was operating under the authority of the chief priests to do to others what was done to Jesus:
Again,
Paul says that he tried (and was successful since he says he voted to have some put to death) to force people to commit blasphemy so that they could be put to death. This is clearly murder. Many were put in prison on trumped up charges so that the Romans would kill them. This is murder. This is what was done to Jesus, who was never guilty of ANY crime. Because one does not do the actual deed does not mean that they are not culpable. Also, it says in Acts that,
What do you think they did in Jerusalem? They coerced them to blaspheme, voted to have them put to death (a process Paul admits to being part of) and then they are put to death. This again, is MURDER. What do you think was meant by MURDEROUS THREATS or PERSECUTING THEM TO THEIR DEATH? Paul actually had the authority to carry out those threats, AND HE DID. How is it, for example, that Paul claims to have voted against Christians on trial for their lives before the Sanhedrin, when in fact, in the graphically described trial of Peter before the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, led by Gamaliel, voted for the release of Peter?
What kind of Pharisee was Paul, if he took an attitude towards the early Christians which, on the evidence of the book of Acts, was untypical of some of the Pharisees? When the roles were reversed, we see the M.O. of the High Priest and his co-horts revealed,
Still, the Pharisees had the INNOCENT Paul arrested on FALSE CHARGES to have him MURDERED, the same tactics Paul used at their direction to murder INNOCENT CHRISTIANS before his conversion. He was a murderer.
So much for know it all Shem.
Rick
“No I’m Not, I see it like this, If we agree on something, it is because the Bible taught it first”
You are still affirming a doctrine that is also affirmed by the LDS church. That was my point. You usually seem to try to distance yourself from everything we teach, and yet on this you aren’t. I just thought it interesting.
“Well the Bible says otherwise.”
Great. Show me where.
Now, we both know that this is not really possible. All you can really show is how you interpret the Bible to say this, and that it.
Now, let us take Revelation 21: 8 in more depth, though I think I explained this in a previous post.
Note that it states they will take part in the second death. It does not say they will suffer it in full, but only in part. They will suffer yes, but will eventually be redeemed, as they will only take part in the second death.
Nothing in this verse contradicts anything I have said. I know you disagree, but just because you disagree does not mean I ignore the Bible.
“Does an atheist Believe in God? The answer is no, they do not. Can an atheist turn to Jesus, confess His or her sin before death and be saved? The answer is yes. How do I know? The Bible says so.”
I am glad you agree with this, however, it proves that unbelief is not the unpardonable sin that Christ was talking about. This is what you have been ignoring. You keep saying over and over that if a man dies in unbelief he goes to hell, and that is fine. I couldn’t agree more. However, the Bible tells us that Blaspheme against the Holy Ghost is not forgivable even before death. It declares very plainly that once that sin is committed there is not way to be forgiven.
Matthew 12: 32 “nd whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
So, if you are going to claim that blaspheming the Holy Ghost is simply to not believe, how can you claim that there can be forgiveness for it in this world? This is the point I have been trying to make, and the one you don’t seem to grasp.
As far as Paul, I don’t mind a few disagreements, and I am going to leave it at that. I have given you my reasons for believing what I do, and I have no desire to repeat them. You have given nothing that proves them wrong beyond your opinion, and so on this point we are just going to have to leave it at that.
Speaking of unofficial sources, when have I ever said you can’t quote from them. I have only ever said that they must be placed in their proper context and given their proper weight as sources. I am fine with you quoting unofficial sources, as long as you acknowledge them to be such, which I have done. When it comes to unofficial publications produced by the apostles I find it very credible, as long as an official source does not contradict it.
Now, you claimed I made it up, and demanded that I show where I got the idea. I gave the source, and explained why it can be trusted. Thus I have satisfied your demands. However, as usual, you are now trying to tack on new demands in an attempt to dismiss what I said.
Suffice it to say that I did not make this up; it is stated fairly clearly by an apostle of God; and though the publication in which it is stated is not an official church publication, it was never contradicted by the church.
So, please stop with the false accusations.
Shem said
Shem, You sure do like to say, “I think” an awful lot. Instead of assuming how about you back it up from the Bible.
Anyway, to your quote above I said,
To which you said
Well the Bible says,
But we know you will reject this.
Now you said
Ok, here is what the Bible says
And the Bible says
First off, No place does the Bible ever say, as you teach, once these people go to the lake of fire, they ever will get out. Then in Rev 21:27 it lists these people and claims these people will never enter heaven, so unless you can back up what you say from the Bible, then your full of it.
Shem said
So you believe it is Murder still, well then we have a problem, first off as I keep quoting scripture, the Bible says, ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
And who ever confess their sin, will be forgiven, you have yet to show me from the Bible where it states only Murder cannot be forgiven.
Shem said
I love how you claim Paul did not commit murder and was not involved with Jesus, yet you were shown from the Bible where you were wrong, then all you can say is, we dont agree and I will leave it at that. I guess your hard pressed to explain How Paul committed Murder it was proven from scripture, and God clearly forgave Him. That really has to mess with you.
Shem said
You might not have said, I cannot use them, but you clearly believe that or imply that. Every time me or anyone else quotes your prophets and you dont agree then you automatically default to, well you guys dont understand, so that means you are wrong. You just did this with Mike R in another topic and he said something to that effect.
We cannot ever prove you wrong because in your mind if you dont agree with something your prophets said, then it’s not your problem. You only believe what you want.
Shem said
I’m not tacking on new demands or back tracking anything, I am saying, you cannot support your belief’s from the Bible, so you must use any source or person that tells you what you want to hear, and as I said, your the one not interested in the truth. How can we honestly have a real honest debate if every time I quote your prophets and show you where they said and taugt things that you claim they did not, your reply is, Rick you are not a Mormon, so their fore you dont understand what your reading.
In other words, I either believe blindly as you do, or I will always be wrong. Their is no room for honest debate with that attitude.
Shem,
I have pretty much said this already, but here is more verses from the Bible.
You claim no murder can be forgiven, but Romans says
It does not say, No forgiveness for those who murder, it says, salvation to everyone who believes.
If you feel this does not include people who murder, than support that from the Bible.
If you try and use that verse that says, No murder has eternal life abiding in them, Then it is your job to use the scriptures and explain how if no murder has eternal life, but many verses say, Who Ever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, or If we confess our sins, one of those sins is murder, we will be forgiven.
Or how Jesus said, I came to die for the entire world, and you yourself said, that goes all the way back to people before He died. So none of these excludes people who Murder.
But then we also read,
The wrath of God is not only towards people who murder, it CLEARLY SAYS, ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness, this includes Liars, people who steal, cheat Etc.
Rick
I have said it all before, and you have not listened to me. You have constantly twisted my words and ignored vital information in your replies. I will try this one more time, and try to get it right.
I have never claimed that a murderer will not gain salvation, for they will be redeemed in the due time of the Lord. As such they will enter heaven. However, as John tells us, they cannot have eternal life, which life is had by those in the Celestial Glory of Heaven. A murderer will be saved, but will not be exalted. Get this strait.
The one unpardonable sin, on which the blood of Christ has no saving power, is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. This sin constitutes first knowing the truth beyond doubt, having had the Holy Spirit testify of it, and then turning against it. It constitutes falling from this state of grace to committing murder, and then going beyond this and assenting to the death of Christ himself. It is coming out in open defiance against God and his Kingdom.
This is what Cain did; for Cain held the priesthood, as he was permitted to offer the holy sacrifice, and he communed directly with God himself; yet Cain made a deal with Satan and blasphemed the holy sacrifice, and then killed his brother. Having once had such light given to him he fell to the point that there was no more forgiveness, for he openly rebelled against that light unto bloodshed.
David, on the other hand, was a murderer, yet never did he turn in open defiance against God, but sought his forgiveness and humbled himself. For this he will be redeemed.
Now, speaking of the many times that Christ and others taught that all who come to God will be saved, it seems that it is I that must place things into context, even though we are usually the ones accused of failing to do so.
Consider the audience of these men when they taught this. They were teaching those who had not yet found their faith, but were still in darkness. All who call on God will be saved, or will be brought to salvation. But once they are there it becomes possible for them to fall from that grace. This was taught only to those who had already sought out Christ and had come to the faith, for it pertains only to those who have already been saved from the first death. After all, one must be saved from the first death before they suffer the second.
Christ died for the world, to make it possible that all men might come to him and receive salvation. But once we have received it he has given no guarantee that we will never loose it.
Now, concerning Paul, you have proven nothing. It is sad that you cannot see that all your opinions are not actually proof, but they aren’t. You cannot show me one verse in the Bible that states that Paul was involved in the death of Christ; nor can you show me one place in the Bible were it states that Paul did not do the things he did out of faith in the Law of Moses. Until you can you have no proof.
“I’m not tacking on new demands or back tracking anything, I am saying, you cannot support your belief’s from the Bible”
You are indeed tacking on new demands and backtracking. I quote again “You cannot show me where an official teaching from a prophet said that. If anyone else said it, then both show me, and explain how it can be trusted when as you yourself said, Only Prophets can state doctrine, everything else is mere opinion on the behalf of a person.”
Notice that all you asked for was someone else saying it, and an explanation on how the source can be trusted. I gave that, very clearly. It was not until after I answered this that you went back and said “Also how about you show me all of what you said and believe from the Bible?” Showing this from the Bible was never part of the discussion until after I proved that I was not making it up. You tried to discredit what I said by accusing me of inventing explanation, and what that failed you tried the new tactic of appealing to the Bible.
When I posted this comment to the thread on which it belongs I was explaining LDS doctrine, and thus have no need to “prove it from the Bible.” I am not trying to convince you that it is true, but show you that it is LDS doctrine. Let us please leave it at this, as I have no desire to continue a pointless debate.
Shem,
You are the one who has no clue and will end up in a Christless eternity for ever with out end.
Your the one that both rejects the Bible but listens to false prophets who make things up about the Bible. Many things you teach are not supported in the Bible.
You said
LDS and their fake made up priesthood and priesthood authority.
First off, JS said, No man can see God and live, with out the priesthood.
Yet JS claims He saw God and Lived, yet this fake priesthood authority did not exist at the time, so JS saw God and lived with out the priesthood.
Then you cannot show me a single verse from the Bible where it states Cain held any priesthood. You would need to either insert that word or show me from some other source than the Bible.
Then you cannot show me from the Bible where it says, We must have priesthood authority or where the apostles or Jesus said, go into the world and make Disciples of all nations, But first you must have priesthood authority to do this.
Then you take one verse that Paul mentions and turn it into a huge doctrine, everything LDS teaches about the three heavens, who goes their and cannot go their and things that will take place in their cannot be supported from the Bible.
So I say to you as Paul said in Gal 1:8-9 let him (You) be accursed as your leading people straight to eternal Damnation with your false gospel and false teachings.