Perhaps the most compelling parallel that can be made between Mormon temples and Solomon’s temple is that the Israelites disobediently put an “Asherah pole” — an object which honored Asherah, the wife of Baal (which idolatrous Israelites assumed to be also the wife of Yahweh) — into the temple. Kings and Chronicles repeatedly makes the issue of Asherah a measuring rod when describing the rebellion and idolatry and wickedness of God’s people and the kings of Israel. In the great reform, the Asherah pole was chopped down and burned to ashes (2 Kings 23:6).
Today, Mormons resurrect worship of Asherah in at least two ways:
1. They essentially teach and believe in Heavenly Mother, and this worldview is the framework which informs the endowment ceremony, which under-girds the sealing ceremonies (i.e. sealings are necessary for women to become cosmic queens, goddesses, to further the genealogy of the gods), and the rare second anointings, where women are given assurance, short of subsequently committing murder, of celestial exaltation unto godhood.
2. After re-enacting the Fall, the Mormon participants in the LDS endowment ceremony are told by Satan to run, hide, and make a green apron-covering for themselves, to hide their nakedness. The acted drama or movie is literally stopped to give LDS participant time to obey Satan. The narrator then instructs them to put on their green aprons. In Mormonism, the decision to eat of the forbidden fruit is construed as being wise, righteous, holy, and worth imitating. It is celebrated for allegedly then enabling Adam and Eve to birth mortal children. Whereas Biblically the shameful self-covering of Adam and Eve was replaced with the animal-skin covering that God provided (pointing to Christ), Mormons put the green apron on in a celebratory fashion, not a shameful one. They even put it on over the alleged divine covering (the white undergarments). Mormons are often even buried in their casket with the green apron on. The green apron may be seen as a celebration of the fertility that came with the Fall, when they obeyed Satan’s enticing. Since Asherah was a goddess of fertility, I can’t help but see the connection: not only are modern Mormon apologists like Kevin Barney calling for worship of Asherah as Heavenly Mother(!), Mormons have inadvertently paid homage to the goddess of fertility in a demonic temple ceremony.
Yea and it’s all very deep, spiritual and can only be understood by those who have had personal revelation with confirmation in their spirit.
Spend any time at all in the OT and we see where God calls a people to be His. Demands that they cut themselves loose from idolatry but they keep going back to it time and again. Interestingly enough, after the Babylonian Captivity, that was never again a problem for the Jews. They had had their bellies full of it. Seventy years of captivity finally got their attention.
Mormons are truly ignorant of the occult foundation of their religion. They see it all as very holy. I don’t know to what extent God holds them accountable for this, as opposed to the leadership, but they are truly under the influence of a diluting spirit. Those who look at Mormonism through the rear-view-mirror as they drive away from it see it all clearly.
BTW, there are a couple of sects of Mormonism who won’t/don’t go near this stuff. The Utah bunch are not one of them.
The thing that I get a kick out of is when Mormons will say that Christians have a “man-made” God. This all has to do with the various Councils that were held to clearly articulate the Doctrine of God. The Councils were a means by which to confront the heretics that were postulating all sorts of theories as to the nature of God.
In Mormon lore, a bunch of guys got together at these Councils and invented God. They beat the snot out of the other contenders, so the story goes, vanquished them and prevailed in promoting the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is repeated down at the Wards and the pew sitters and the TBMs never really look into the early history of the Church to determine just exactly what went on.
Andy Watson did a series of four articles in the past six months or so giving a very detailed account of the Christian history of the first four hundred years noting the writings of the Church Fathers.
So who really has a “man-made” god and goddess to boot. Well it’s the Salt Lake City sect of Mormonism. Their peerless leader Smith started out fairly conventional and then in a fit of creative energy invented a new god and got himself a goddess also. Since polygamy is big in the Celestial Kingdom, any man-god also has to have a horde of wives with whom to procreate spirit children to populate their own private Kolob.
As mentioned above, the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot sects won’t go near this nonsense. It’s a religious hobby horse for those Mormons who have been sucked into Smith’s fantasy and groove on it. What woman wouldn’t want to be a goddess and go through eternity perpetually pregnant? Does spiritual pregnancy include morning sickness?
Sharon
Thanks for that, I knew about the mother goddess even though Mormons never mention her, but I had never made the connection between Mormon belief & Ashera until I read your article. It seems so obvious now especially when considering Joseph Smiths preoccupation with the occult. I must remember to try raising the subject when I next speak to my ex-wife, it should make for a very interesting conversation. She’s a committed Mormon but from time to time she seems to have doubts, perhaps your article will add even more fuel to the fire.
Falcon.
I had to chuckle at your final paragraph especially when thinking about the number of times men are told by their wives that if they had to carry children they would only ever have one, yet once they become Mormon they would like to spend eternity as baby machines. On a (possibly) more serious note there is one point I would like to raise, Mormons say that God, & presumably this includes his countless wives, have bodies made of flesh & bone & procreate in the normal human fashion, if that’s the case I’m wondering how it’s possible to produce spirit children from a physical union?
There is no connection to Ashera. There is no Mother Goddess; at least not in the sense that that term carries with it. We believe in a heavenly mother, and since she exists in the Divine state she is a god. However, she is not a member of the Godhead and is not worshiped. People have been excommunicated for teaching such worship, as it is idolatry.
I wonder what Mormons think of the Virgin Mary or as she was referred to in my Catholic School days, “the Blessed Virgin Mary”? Mormons have a way of ridiculing or blaspheming just about everything in Christianity and Mary is no exception.
The Mormon prophet Brigham Young had it revealed to him that the Mormon Heavenly Father had actual physical sex with Mary, a virgin, in the conception of the Mormon Jesus. It makes one wonder if Mary was the Mormon god’s daughter or wife.
None-the-less perhaps in the Mormon system Mary is one of the Mormon god’s goddess wives. She’d have to be given that the Mormon god saw fit to physically procreate with her, according to that genius and mighty prophet Brigham Young.
So much about Mormonism is convoluted and in turn revolting that its on this basis interestingly that some Mormons embrace it, if they know anything about it; given that old time Mormonism is kept tucked away by the LDS church.
Old time BY Mormonism is falling on hard times as young people aren’t too into it these days. With information available about Mormonism I imagine it’s a real head scratchier for today’s Mormons to wrap their brains around the Mormonism of the past.
Getting trapped mentally in a cult is not a fun trip. Unfortunately folks can’t see it until they’re out. We can only hope that blogs like Mormon Coffee can provide information which in turn will serve as an impetus for believing Mormons to check some of this out and in turn come to a saving knowledge of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Shem,
And on whose authority do you present these things? From my experience with you and other Mormons, you practiced your own form of Mormonism at your personal comfort level.
You, for example, believe that the Jesus revealed in the Bible is the Mormon Jesus based on nothing but your own belief system.
If you embrace these mother goddess routine you’re doing it on the basis of following Joseph Smith not on what the Bible teaches. You’re depending on him and the other Mormon false prophets for your salvation path.
You’re explaining this away just like Mormons explain away all of the occult symbols that decorate Mormon temples. It’s all so innocent and really means something else like the facsimile of the Mormon god in the BoM sitting on a throne exposing himself. This “god” is an Egyptian “god”. But of course it really isn’t as it appears to be just like all the rest of the nonsense in Mormonism.
Shem,
I’m curious. Are you planning on practicing polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom and is your wife aware of your intentions?
The Mormon god got to where he is today because he was able to score a bunch of wives. It’s a prerequisite for your personal deification. I know your wife thinks you’re her true blue dude who wouldn’t cheat on her, seeing you’ve been sealed in the temple and all that, but she’s just going to be one of your many goddesses if you play your cards right.
This fantasy religion you belong to is leading you down a path that will not only end in your own spiritual destruction but that of your wife and your kids if you have any.
I think you need to wise up and see what you’re into.
“…… not only are modern Mormon apologists like Kevin Barney calling for worship of Asherah as Heavenly Mother(!), Mormons have inadvertently paid homage to the goddess of fertility in a demonic temple ceremony.”
I did a quick read through of the article and found it to be more religious entertainment for Mormon folks casting about looking for anything to support their bizarre notions.
The Mormon premise is repeated regarding the point-of-view that the Bible can’t be trusted then the author goes to the Bible to do some Scripture mining.
I’m all for these types of papers. In fact I think they (papers) should get wide distribution and publicity as is being done on this blog. Of course, again, this is very deep spiritual stuff that only those who are mature can understand. Hence any bizarre notion can be peddled under the guise of being deep spiritually and for only the truly mature.
Any Mormon trying to defend this rubbish will find that they are more ostracized from Biblical Christianity and serious scholars.
So, again, how do Mormons “know” about the multiplicity of gods and heavenly mothers and on-and-on? Well it’s because Joseph Smith said it. Interestingly enough, there are those that would come under the Mormon umbrella that don’t believe this foundational false doctrine.
Why do people believe it? Because, they say, they have had these “truths” confirmed in their “spirits”. In-other-words, the notion made them feel emotionally good. So then off they go to the Bible to see if they can find something to confirm what they want to believe and which makes them feel good. I say, “What difference does it make what the Bible says on the subject?” Because, after all, the Bible can’t be trusted.
The only reason they go this way is to impress folks who do actually accept the Bible as the Word of God. I’ve played Bible ping-pong with Mormons and it’s a total waste of time. Their ball gets stuck in the net and they still want to claim the point.
Following false prophets based on “knowing” or “confirmation in the spirit” is bad policy. Ask anyone who has left Mormonism about what they now think about the emotional confirmation they thought they had gotten. As it turns out it’s a faulty way of determining truth.
Falcon
Your summing up of the Mormon attitude towards truth is pretty much spot on, it amounts to “I have a testimony” as if feelings are more important than facts. Since coming in here & debating issues with “He who will not be moved by the facts” also known as Shem, I’ve come to realise just how pointless it all is. That’s why I said in a previous post that the best & simplest way for him to defend his church is to provide some kind of evidence for the claims of Joseph Smith, that of course is never going to happen, because those claims, as he knows only too well, do not stand up under scrutiny.
I believe I’m correct in saying that people who study the phenonoma of feelings confirming truth will say that we, as humans, will recieve confirmation of what we want to be true, i.e. we get feelings confirming the truth of things that accord with our desires, but will not recieve confirmation of something we do not want to be true. Therefore feelings are notoriously unreliable as a methos of determining truth.
Old Man.
I think I’ve been on this blog for five years and what keeps me going aren’t the TBMs that we debate with. I’m aware that most Mormons who access this blog are coming to read not to post. In-other-words they have some nagging doubts about Mormonism and are looking for answers. I am encouraged by the testimonies I read and watch (video) of former Mormons who were true believers in the Mormon program and left. The story for those who become Christians is that they couldn’t reconcile the NT message with Mormonism. The two gospels can’t coexist with each other. One is true and one is not.
The NT message of salvation through Jesus Christ is very straight forward and plain. That’s why the NT is an enemy of Mormonism.
Life in Christ is so much better.
Hello Old man,
When it comes to Shem and Mormons in General and deciding truth by how you feel, that is simply nothing more than they really want to believe what they want to believe.
Mormons may claim, I had a burning in the Bosom, so that proves I am right, well I also have had a burning in the Bosom and due to that believe they are wrong, yet sadly it only works one way, their way.
Or they claim they prayed about the truth and were told they and JS are correct, yet I prayed about the Church and JS and was told they are wrong, and again, it only works there way, if they pray about truth and they are told they are right, then they are, but not they are wrong. So lets just be honest, truth and facts dont matter, simply believing what they want is the only truth they need.
Falcon
“the facsimile of the Mormon god in the BoM sitting on a throne exposing himself.”
What? There are no facsimiles in the Book of Mormon. They are in the Book of Abraham, and none of them depict God as you describe. I know you like to sensationalize things, so maybe we should just take this as your usual twisting of things to make them sound as bad as possible.
I have noticed that no one here seems to understand anything regarding what the testimony of the Spirit is or how we approach and handle truth. I have also noticed that your approach to truth is basically opposite the approach of every prophet in the Bible, and yet you claim to know the truth because of your facts. I honestly don’t think any one of you has any real understanding of what Faith truly is.
The real truth is that 75% of what you call facts are nothing more than assumptions and opinions that are based on a twisted understanding of the 25% that actually is fact. The problem is that you will never admit this, but will always insist that everything you claim as fact is fact, and thus shut down any real discussion.
Falcon & Rick
Hello to both of you. As you’re aware I’m relatively new here & I worry a little about treading on some ones toes or stealing their thunder as it were. After my debating experiences in here it is very tempting to say, I can’t be bothered or what’s the point? I’m as aware as the next man about the evils of Mormonism but that isn’t to say the ordinary members are evil; there are some very nice people in the LDS church, my ex-wife being one of them. No, it’s the teachings that are evil. Having said that, I’ve read your comments & I feel that I should stick with the task in hand in the hope that a doubter looking for truth will find their way here.
Shem
You say that no one here seems to understand anything regarding what the testimony of the Spirit is or how you approach & handle truth. I definitely know how you handle truth, it’s the same way I would handle a hot roasting pan, very carefully in case I burn myself. I described earlier what much of so-called testimony consists of & to that I’ll add the words of an old Catholic priest “Are you so arrogant as to believe that only Mormons can have a spiritual testimony”
I cannot speak for anyone else in here but I certainly could, if I chose, speak of my spiritual experiences. You wouldn’t understand it of course because it’s the kind of testimony that causes a man to fall on his knees, a humbling testimony & not a one that fills me with pride & makes me feel good. Shem, you are very fond of accusing people of arrogance without seeming to recognise just how full of pride you really are.
By the way, the facsimile that Falcon referred to does in fact exist & in the form that he describes.
Hello old man,
You said Falcon & Rick
Hello to both of you. As you’re aware I’m relatively new here & I worry a little about treading on some ones toes or stealing their thunder as it were.
Just be yourself and dont worry. I more than speak my mind, I tend not to hold back to the point where My wife says, are you really going to post that?
Falcon Nick named me the Hammer, and sadly Many believers have come to the aid of the Mormons telling me I am being mean, yet the Mormons can say what they want, even get busted lying and no one says anything to them. So keep up the good work defending the faith.
Old man said
Old man, this is the reason I am here, to share with Mormons and share with those who are looking, I have been here since day one and I am not leaving until the Lord takes me home. I have seen so many people both LDS and non-LDS come and go. So Again, keep up the good work my Brother.
Shem,
I meant to type “BoA” and instead typed “BoM”. Anyway if you want to take that as a sign that I don’t know what I’m talking about have at it. Your ego probably needs the boost.
As Old Man says the facsimile does in fact appear in the BoA. In fact I’ll contact Andy Watson and see if he will comment on it. He wrote a series of articles on Mormon Coffee at one time. The fact that you don’t know about it just goes to show how ignorant you are about the religion you have put your trust in and speak so confidently about.
BTW I just report the facts about Mormonism. If it appears sensational than so be it. It’s the truth something you need to learn regarding Mormonism.
OK Shem.
I did the work for you. Here’s the link to Andy’s article that appeared on MC about four years ago. I’d suggest you read all of the articles Andy wrote in this particular series. But yes, Joseph Smith identifies the Mormon god and he’s sitting on his throne with an erection. That’s because the “god” identified as the Mormon god was actually an Egyptian fertility god.
I know. It doesn’t really matter because you have had the “truth” revealed to you and confirmed in your spirit.
http://blog.mrm.org/2009/08/indecent-exposure-part-2-of-4/
Shem,
You don’t think we understand about hearing God in the Spirit? No, we understand it very well and we also know when it’s not the Spirit but someone’s own imagination and desire as Old Man has explained.
I’ll repeat what I’ve written on this site many times. I’m a full Gospel guy. That means that I take the NT at face value and believe that the Spirit of God is still as active today as He was in the first century Church.
The problem with Mormonism and its prophets is that they speak out of their own imagination. Mormons do not respect the Bible and therefore are not guided by God’s revelation.
As Old Man said, we could provide you with all sorts of spiritual experiences in terms of testimony but what difference would it make to you?
Well there is no twisting the truth on what Rick wrote about God sitting on his Throne from the facsimile in the Book of Abraham. What Jo Smith calls God, is actually the pagan god Min, which can be found here along with the proof. Jo called a picture of the pagan god Min, “God sitting on his Throne”. Problem is, this is not the Christian God, but a pagan Egyptian god. Jo didn’t know what he was doing. He had no spiritual understanding of God, nor was he a prophet of God.
LOL! Heavenly MOTHER, who is a goddess, is not a Mother goddess. “”But she is a god.”” Um, that would be a “mother god”. Or was she neutered so that she could not have children? Whether Mormons claim to worship her or not, she is still a “mother goddess”. If she is not connected with Asherah, than why do so many Mormon Apologists keep bringing it up and trying to make a connection, even suggesting that Mormons name their children Asherah or variations of the name. Answer: desperation.
For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.This mystery is great; This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.. (Ephesians 5:31-32)
The Righteous Saints are the Bride of God. Revelation 19:7-8
This was never good enough for Jo Smith. He had to say in his heart,‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God,I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to hell, to the far reaches of the pit.(Isaiah 14:13-15)
To do that, he made God one of us. A man.
But God said,
“God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?” Numbers 23:19
“I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.” Revelation 2:2
Aaron
You have done a good job in talking to the wordpress guy. I see the connection but at times only vaguely. The connection here seems to be similar to the connection I have seen when reading about early Judaism And the surrounding pagans. Some people see that a jewish idea about diety originated from the pagan cults when pagans might have got it from the Jews.
As long as we are talking about connections. You should note that 75% of the comments have been made by Falcon. Now I shouldn’t complain but I once called him Torquemada and even though it seems to fit at times a more appropriate name would be Basil. Yes Basil as in Basil Fawlty in fawlty towers. He ,Falcon, could probably run this blog better than any of you guys as long as nobody else showed up.
clyde,
Thanks for the shout out. Seems I’m hitting the ball pretty solidly since you appear to be in full-on whine mode. When is the last time you posted anything of substance on this blog? You have as much opportunity to post here as any one else does. I think your lazy and really aren’t interested in doing the work.
Now as far as the ancient Jews. Go to Genesis chapter 12. That’s in the Old Testament. God calls Abraham. Spend the time processing that information and its significance.
I learned about heavenly mother years ago when our home teacher ( my bishop at the time) told us that we don’t talk about her because she is just so darn sacred that heavenly father wants to protect her. The questions I have are….How many heavenly mothers are there? How do we know which heavenly mother is our own? Do my husband and I have the same heavenly mother or do we have different ones? There is absolutely no way to know which heavenly mother we’re supposed to see as THE mother goddess. The average Mormon cannot ask the next question or the next because if they did they would see Mormonism for what it is. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard from my family members that they just have faith as a little child and follow the prophet, they don’t get caught up in the why’s or if’s. I myself thought this way, that it was all just to complicated for my little mind to figure out and that the best thing to do was follow the prophet, he knows the way!
The sad part that I realize now, is that I gave my Salvation over to a man claiming to be a prophet when my Savior was right in front of me the whole time. There truly is freedom in Jesus.
Amen Brother. And this is not so strange considering the fact that Jo himself made MIN (the Egyptian Fertility God) their Father God. What good is a male fertility god, when he has no female fertility goddess? It’s a match made in hell.
Many, many Mormon Apologists see it the first way. We have had discussions about this on this blog with some of them. They also claim that the Jewish God is a conflation of pagan gods, that Biblical books were redacted to strike out any references to polytheism, ad nauseum. There is of course no way to prove this, but they are certain they are right and that Jo Smith was some kind of prophet for teaching polytheism and saying that the idol gods in the Bible weren’t idols. This idea undermines the whole concept of God, but what the hell, who cares about that as long as they can use it to prove Jo Smith was a prophet.
Wow, I hadn’t considered the Min / Asherah connection. Very interesting how Satan and the demons find ways to insert their ancient personas into modern falsehoods.
It is amazing the degree true believing Mormons will go to support what they want to believe in. The explanations are so convoluted and illogical that the only place they stand up is in the Mormon wards.
Kate,
I learned from one of our Mormon true believers on this blog that a Mormon man doesn’t have to practice polygamy to get to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. What the future god has to do is affirm polygamy. In-other-words, go along with it. I think this is probably a recent invention of Mormonism because it’s pretty clear that the real movers and shakers in Mormonism were practicing it for a reason. Well, I mean other than their obvious delight of having multiple sex partners.
I’m wondering if Mormon women think that their husbands are going to get additional wives to serve as multiple heavenly mothers in (their husband’s) harem? I really don’t see how the women come out ahead in Mormonism. These heavenly mothers don’t even seem to get any recognition. They just stay in the background serving as incubators of some sort. You’d think they’d get something else to do. Do they sit around in a rocking chair visiting with their children and grandchildren?
I wasn’t sure if I should post the following, I have no wish to be accused of intruding on anyones privacy, but as it’s been playing on my mind I think I should.
The discussion has centred around the goddess Asherah & the way that Mormons follow a similar belief. All pagan cultures followed pretty much the same deities but under different names e.g. Asherah was also Ashtoreth & Astarte. Baal was also known as Moloch. The point being that they are all the same imaginary gods albeit with different names, depending on which particular tribe a person belonged to
Ok now I’ve got that out of the way I can move on a little, today I read a blog from a Mormon woman whose twelve year old daughter is seriously ill with cancer. I’m going to quote part of what she said. I’ve removed the childs name.
“When I see the physical and emotional pain …….. is going through, I feel sad and have shed tears with and for her. However, if I had the ability to take this cancer away from her, I wouldn’t. You heard me right. I would not take this cancer from her. Why would I rob her of this life changing experience?…………chose this before coming to earth. She knew the pain she would experience. She also knew the blessings that would be hers from going through it. Lives would be changed. Her life would be changed. Every moment of her trial will be worth it. She will never want to give back what she gains and what she learns. It will be precious to her. So as a mother, why would I ever take that away from her? I am happy for her that she is the kind of girl that God has trusted to go through this with faith, strength, and dignity. God has every confidence in her. I do too.”
I find it sickening that a mother should say such a thing but that’s not my reason for posting it in here. It’s here in connection with what I wrote at the start. The Jews at one stage worshipped Baal alias Moloch, & to him they sacrificed children. What does this have to do with a Mother goddess you may ask, well, perhaps nothing but Ashera was the goddess wife of Baal so there is a connection if only a tenuous one
I am not for one moment suggesting that the mother mentioned above would even think of sacrificing a child, to the contrary I feel for her, having lost two children of my own I know just how heart wrenching that can be. However, it does make me wonder what kind of mindset it is that can conjure up such a false picture of God.
I’m not only feeling sickened by what I read but am left feeling very uncomfortable with it. It seems to me that in a sense she sees her own child as some kind of sacrifice.
Perhaps I’m not thinking clearly, perhaps I have it all wrong & if that is so I will be the first to apologise but……………..?
Old Man,
Mormons at one time were told not to trust doctors of medicine because they could not really heal people… I have the quotes somewhere, I’ll go dig them up.
Falcon,
Brigham Young (Woodruff Journals) and Joseph Smith (per Benjamin Johnson) taught that men with only one wife would get into the celestial kingdom. But they were also told that if they did, that one wife would be taken away and given to another and they used the parable of the talents as a proof text.
That means, of course that those with no wives become slaves to those who have multiple wives, since those who do not have a wife are doomed to servitude. (D&C 132)
Oct 14, 1882 – Wilford Woodruff records in his journal that during meeting of First Presidency and Council of Twelve Apostle Erasus Snow “said that Joseph Smith said that the parable that Jesus spoke, of that man who had one talent & hid it in the earth, was the man who had but one wife & would not take another, would have her taken from him & given to one who had more, . . .” Benjamin F. Johnson also recorded that on a Sunday morning of April, 1843 Joseph Smith revealed the principle of polygamy to him. Joseph further said, “I will today preach a sermon that no one but you will understand.” Johnson said that “the text for his sermon was our use of the ‘one, five, and ten talents,’ and from him who was found but with the one talent it would be taken and given to him that had ten.”
There was no “free agency” involved in this. That is why Smith told the story of an angel with a sword that told him he would kill him if he did not take a second wife. My my, the lies these guys could spin…
In Modern Mormonism all of this has been swept under the rug as if it never happened. They now say that a man can get exalted with one or no wives. This is a lie. You must practice polygamy in the CK or you are a persona non gratis.
Old man,
Mormons at one time thought it was ok to castrate people, murder them, and righteously cut the head off of anyone who broke their temple covenants, committed adultery or numerous other infractions.
What’s human sacrifice to them? If a Mormon “prophet” were to command it, some would be lining up the victims.
Old Man,
Is it the child who is sick or is it the child’s mother? What total stupidity! This is what cult thinking does to a person.
We don’t see thinking exactly like this in the “health and wealth gospel” but it to presents a picture of “faith” that is totally contrary to what God teaches.
It’s exploitative and is the result of people out-sourcing their thinking and trust to false prophets and teachers.
“Follow the leaders” is about the worst policy a person can have. I like what Dr. Walter Martin use to say. “Question everything someone tells you, even what I tell you.”
I feel sorry for that woman’s child because she is indeed being sacrificed to the Mormon god.
grindeal,
Is what you wrote still operational in the LDS church today or has there been a “revelation” to change the way things work? Mormonism is definitely a moving target and like trying to nail jello to the wall. The “Moderns” just change all of the embarrassing stuff. I think that the FLDS really represents Mormonism not as founded but as it evolved. Now it’s evolving into something else. So what’s so restorative about the restored gospel that Joseph Smith claimed to receive? What’s the deal with “eternal truths”? The “truths” are lucky to make it through one or two generations before being changed.
Is it any wonder that Mormonism needs to depend on a “burning in the bosom”, a “confirmation in the spirit”, or having one’s heart “warmed”. It all sounds very spiritual and to the recipient, it’s the real deal. In the case of cults, it’s all just manipulation of a person’s emotions. Unfortunately, people learn how to do this to themselves supposing it’s God who is speaking to them. I’ve seen way too much of this sort of thing within religious/spiritual groups.
This is how such nonsense as men becoming gods and women becoming goddesses gets perpetrated. Once someone buys into the cults program, they are easy pickings and subject to all sorts of “spiritual” manipulation.
We have a number of former Mormons who post here and my guess is that they’ve all been subjected to this spiritual con game. I can see why so many people exiting Mormonism don’t want anything to do with religion in general. It’s just a lot easier for them to become atheists.
Grindael said
I would bet money Me and Falcon would be the first two in that line.
Wow. I stop by here every year or so to see you guys are still playing to the low-information members. I guess it’s good though to you all weeding out the weak minded.
Nah, it’s the non-brainwashed members. The ones who don’t “follow the “prophet” even if he tells you to do something wrong.” See ya next year.
Grindael – really? Head on over to Mormon Interpreter (.com) and go up against just one decent LDS scholar and your comrades will have to carry you home in a stretcher. But you know this – so you wait around here hoping for a low-information member to surf by. That’s all you’ve got.
Mormon Interpreter? Really? And I’m not new on the block Jason, I’ve had conversations with Don Bradley, Elden Watson and others. I didn’t have to be carried home on a stretcher. Why all the violent rhetoric Jason. Now those guys, were pretty cool. It’s drive by trolls like you that can’t deliver on anything substantial in any kind of discussion. How bout you, Jason? You must be one of those low information surfers since you are here, right? How about Daniel Peterson? He was here and we had a conversation with him. (He didn’t do very well – he ran away). You don’t know what I’ve got, because you don’t know me, and obviously don’t want to because all you can do is troll and run.
Anytime Grindael. If you are in the Salt Lake area more than glad for a meet up. When I meet with Evs it’s always friendly, informative and fun.
I’m an ex-Mormon Jason. I went to BYU and served a mission. Thanks for the invite but I’m not too keen on Utah anymore.
Well that’s too bad. Mountain Mike’s is a favorite get-together spot. Most recent meet up was with newly minted ex-mo Bishop Earl Erskine. But, I hit him with just a few basic things coming out of Arabia giving credence to the Lehi journey and he was lost in the Empty Quarter. Knew nothing about it. Now he has a “show” on TV etc. But like Dehlin his grasp of the relevant issues is shallow. Classic low-info.
Lehi’s journey? Are you speaking of the UFO man and The secret of NIHM? Don’t tell me you are pinning your hopes on three consonants and a UFO expert. Say it ain’t so, Jason!
And calling John Dehlin shallow is shallow. What’s relevant to a “high” info guy like you?
Jasonrae
“But, I hit him with just a few basic things coming out of Arabia giving credence to the Lehi journey and he was lost in the Empty Quarter. Knew nothing about it.”
Just like Joseph Smith you crow like a cockerel, his arrogance brought him down & will eventually bring you down. Why would this man you so arrogantly dismiss know anything about it? That particular piece of information was proposed by an apologist desperately trying to find proof for his beliefs &, like all apologists, he reached a false conclusion
I’ve seen all the answers, I’ve read & watched you & your ilk dig yourselves into ever-deeper holes. A thousand meaningless words from every apologist who believes they can defend the indefensible is the standard response to a dozen words of truth. Your attempt to show your church is true by putting forward the NHM argument is pure wishful thinking, you all clutch at straws, every argument you put forward has been & will continue to be debunked by men far more learned than you or I.
Ps. you mention decent Mormon scholars butI doubt that you know any. The scholars you know all suffer from the same defect, it’s called confirmation bias. Ask someone else what that means, I’ve run out of patience.
Guess I’ll have to choose my words more carefully but crow like a chicken wouldn’t have been quite right.
jasonrae,
WOW, an arrogant TBM plus a drive-by posting troll!
Here’s a link for you to check out Jason regarding some deep, truly intellectual videos recently produced by one of your LDS heroes.
From the article ‘UCLA Egyptiologists Respond To BYU Professor Kerry Muhlestein’s Videos’ on another site:
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/
“Dr. Kara Cooney, wrote me the following:”
“I watched the three videos, and I don’t agree with any of it. The ancient Egyptians had no concept of Abraham, so I don’t know where he gets these comparisons. And No, most Egyptologists do not agree, despite what Kerry says. I know Kerry, but I do not have much respect for his work. Now I have even less. The fact that he is digging in Egypt is even more worrisome. This PhD was awarded before I arrived at UCLA, although I know that Kerry finished his text based dissertation after only two years of Egyptian language training, which is rather laughable.
Have you read Robert Ritner’s work about this in Journal of Near Eastern Studies? It’s the best out there. Kerry is just spinning out the same Mormon rhetoric. What is different is: Mormons are funding PhDs in Egyptology and Biblical Studies and then funding positions at BYU and elsewhere and passing these people off as experts, when they are only ideologically driven researchers, not experts interested in actual evidence.
Thanks for sending. It’s important to know who these people are”
Yes Grindael but that’s just scratching the surface. It’s funny how the critics want to claim a 23 year old uneducated farm boy wrote the BoM on a whim but yet when we start finding things that shouldn’t be there you guys have ZERO explanation for it. Some hick from the sticks was able to build all this into his fabrication – things that would have been impossible for him or anyone else alive in 1829 to know – and that across two continents.
But hey, you just sit back in your comfy chair with your iPad while Aston and others have thousands of hours of boots on the ground in Arabia and Mesoamerica. The world is passing you by while you ‘type’ away on your keyboard.
And btw, Dehlin himself admits that he, like Old Man and Kate is “often inadequately informed” and is “not a reader by nature”. So defending Dehlin (who is now back in the church) is a waste of your time.
Falco. Mr. Rock Me Amadeus. Really? Mormon Curtain? We read that and exmormon (.org) for entertainment around here when we’re bored. Got anything else?
Let’s just say that when I met with Erskine I could tell the light was on, but the dimmer switch was at the lowest possible setting. But hey, he’s a McCraney disciple so what do you expect. And I’m being honest, it seemed that after SO many years in the church he only had a rudimentary knowledge of anything that informs a decent testimony. Which made him a candidate I guess for the no-effort salvation you guys love to sell.
jason,
I get a little suspicious of people who brag about how they are all this or that and how they took this guy down and how you’re going down buddy just meet me at this place and this time and blah blah blah.
You’re a poser. You come up with some obscure piece of unsubstantiated information and then brag that you left this guys head spinning, frothing at the mouth and rolling about on the floor.
My rule in life is if you have to brag about it, you probably can’t do it.
Mormonism isn’t that complicated.
jasonrae
I don’t normally engage in debating issues with people who have little or no grasp of reality but I’m going to make an exception in your case. As you can no doubt tell from my name, (I know that’s assuming a lot) I’ve been around for quite a while & the bragging of juveniles such as yourself only tends to confirm my suspicions, you really do talk out of that place where the monkey sticks his nuts.
“And btw, Dehlin himself admits that he, like Old Man and Kate is “often inadequately informed” and is “not a reader by nature”
Please be good enough to show me where Kate & myself said we were often inadequately informed or were not readers by nature? Do you always lie or is that only when you wish to impress mommy & daddy? You certainly impress no one here with your inventive rhetoric. Much like Joseph Smith I imagine, he could only impress those who were a little less intelligent than a door handle.
“It’s funny how the critics want to claim a 23 year old uneducated farm boy wrote the BoM on a whim but yet when we start finding things that shouldn’t be there you guys have ZERO explanation for it. Some hick from the sticks was able to build all this into his fabrication – things that would have been impossible for him or anyone else alive in 1829 to know – and that across two continents”
Here we go, same ole same ole, Every argument you present betrays your ignorance of the subject, if all you have to offer us is the tired old Missionary programme don’t even bother. The BofM is a proven fraud………..period.
If you were really desirous of knowing the truth rather than playing the childrens game of follow my leader you would sit down down like a good little boy & listen to your elders.
In short jasonrae, if you don’t want to be treated as a child, don’t behave like one