I did not expect to meet so many atheists when I moved to Utah seven years ago. But I should have known better: America as a whole is secularizing, and Mormonism itself has a “scorched earth policy.” My Mormon girlfriend in high school once essentially said, “If the LDS Church isn’t true, I don’t know that I could ever believe in God.” Mormonism already is a form of atheism: it denies the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, first, most high God, and instead teaches a kind of naturalism or materialism: everything is matter, even spirits, and everything is subject to eternal laws of ultimate nature, even the gods. It feeds its people conspiracy theories about the corruption of the Bible, and it scares the heck out of Mormons over non-Mormon churches: if you don’t stay with the One True Church, you’ll have to settle for an abominable evangelical church with a corrupt pastor who is a minister of Satan.
That is a colorful way of putting it, but you get the point.
It is depressing that so many people leave Mormonism only to become agnostics or atheists. Fortunately, atheists have a hard time staying atheists. Their children are probably much more open to the Biblical gospel than Mormons are. I suspect God is up to something — he has multi-generational plans we’ve never dreamed of. If giving people the truth about Mormonism’s history and the truth about the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ statistically increases the odds of a person becoming a self-confessed agnostic or atheist, then so be it. God is sovereign and I am not here to be a social engineer or to play God. My job as an ambassador of Jesus is to preach the word of truth in love, and let the chips fall where they may. Fortunately, there is the fruit of ex-Mormon Christians to celebrate.
I used to be intimidated to talk to atheists. They are, in my experience, generally confident about their atheism and have tough questions. But over time I discovered that the average atheist hasn’t read a substantive book defending atheism or theism, and gets his intellectual prowess from… image memes and YouTube. Today, I like to start off conversations with atheists by asking, “Have you ever read a good book defending atheism or theism?” Usually they haven’t. “Have you ever heard any good arguments for the existence of God or the resurrection of Jesus?” Usually they haven’t. “What are the strongest arguments for theism or Christianity, and what about them do you find lacking?” Blank stare. “What do you think are some of the most difficult questions for atheism to answer?” Ughhh…
These are great introductory teaching moments. “Would you mind if I shared a few good arguments for the existence of God and for the resurrection of Jesus?” What an awesome opportunity, especially when it culminates in a presentation of the most beautiful (and true) story in the world: God, yes, God, became a man, suffered with us and for us, and paid our penalty on the humiliating and shameful cross, and showed us the best display of sacrificial love there has ever been, simultaneously vindicating the righteousness of God, raising three days letter, showing us that the Lord Jesus Christ has all authority under heaven and earth and infinite power to keep his promises.
My favorite argument for the existence of God is the “moral argument for God.” I push it really hard:
1. If there is no God, there are no objective moral values or duties.
2. There are objective moral values and duties.
3. Therefore, God exists.
The really interesting thing about this argument is that atheists disagree with each other and don’t know it. Some affirm both premises and simply haven’t followed them through to the conclusion. Some affirm premise #1 and disaffirm premise #2, others disaffirm premise #1 and affirm premise #2. Call me a rascal, but when I’m being dog-piled by atheists, I love to get them arguing with each other. The argument is a great way to simultaneously engage someone’s intellect, spiritual intuitions, and suppressed presuppositions, all at the same time.
You can hear more about the moral argument for God here. But don’t let YouTube suffice: read a good book. Some of you are, like me, at times utterly sick of reading about, thinking about, and discussing Mormonism. Take the opportunity to read some good literature that both engages atheism and supports the basics of Biblical Christianity. The ironic thing is that you can take what you learn and share it with not only your atheist neighbors, but also your Mormon neighbors. I dare say that all of the evidences, arguments, and Biblical declarations that atheists need to hear are things that Mormons equally need to hear. Mormons are atheists in embryo. As Mormons are, ex-Mormon atheists once were; as ex-Mormon atheists are, Mormons may be. To quote The Dark Knight Rises out of context: “There is a storm coming.” Mormon parents need to stop asking themselves, “Will my children remain in the LDS Church?”, and start asking, “When my children leave the LDS Church, will they believe in Jesus?” Not if, but when. It’s happening in Utah, and it’s happening fast. Mormons have a hard time imagining what being a Christian theist would be like outside of Mormonism. I want to help start this process of imagination.
Addendum: Ten Discussion Questions for Atheists and Agnostics
- Is there anything you reasonably believe to be true, yet can’t empirically demonstrate?
- Are there any objective moral values or duties?
- Is torturing babies for fun morally objectively wrong?
- Does atheism have a ‘problem of evil’?
- Does every effect have a sufficient cause?
- Do you trust your cognitive faculties?
- To what extent and why?
- Is an infinite regress possible?
- Is it possible that God exists?
- Is truth important for its own sake?
- Is the question of God’s existence important?
- Do you feel angst or sorrow over the absurdity of life?
- What do you think of the person of Jesus?
- Have you ever heard of the “trilemma”?
Philosophical discussion important, but secondary and supplemental to direct preaching. People are not only emotional and spiritual beings, but also intellectual beings, so I consider it a respectful and loving thing to engage a person intellectually.
We are all fools for something. I choose to be a fool for Jesus. “If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become ‘fools’ so that you may become wise.” (1 Corinthians 3:18) Be a “fool” with me and preach the ridiculous gospel of Jesus Christ. Self-confessed atheists are no different than the rest of us inadvertent “practical atheists” who sin as though God does not exist. We need to repent of trusting ourselves and cry out to Jesus in brokenhearted, child-like faith.
God is good, and Jesus has risen,
Aaron
I am also saddened by the number of ex Mormons who become atheist. I remember saying that same thing when I was Mormon, it’s either the Mormon Church or nothing. And that is one of the reasons I would stay in despite all the confusion I had over certain doctrinal and historical issues. I believed in God and I wasn’t about to give God up for no God. So if I knew there was a God then I would also bare my testimony on everything else LDS, because I couldn’t face the alternative; I wouldn’t believe the alternative, which was atheism. I was very brainwashed about other churches. I was taught they were even more confusing and in the dark than the LDS church. “We have the most light and knowledge,” they would say. So why go any where else?
This is shown in an LDS video I recently watched about a LDS couple having problems with the Book of Abraham. To quote the couple at the end of the video, “If there is a God, which I believe there is. If he wanted to prove it. He could. So either, there isn’t a God, or He just doesn’t want to prove it. He wants us to way our options and then to decide.” The options given the people watching the video are LDS Church is true, or no God. The question on whether or not another church is an option isn’t even brought up in the video. Link to video is below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR3uxbxRUz8
I am very careful with Mormons on how much I show them when trying to talk to them about the inaccuracies and falsities in the LDS faith. They have to have something to fall on, something good to cling to. If they don’t, I think that is what causes atheism to win over. They need that firm foundation in Jesus Christ or they will lose all their faith. I love sites like these that try to point LDS to the truth and not focus so much at the lies within their own faith.
Mormons need to be aware of the differences in their faith, with true Christianity. Many of them just don’t know. I remember leaving the LDS faith and trying to find where I was going to go. I still believed in Christ but didn’t know where I wanted to worship. I told myself that I would never go to a church that believed in the Trinity. I said this because I didn’t understand the Trinity. I was taught the Trinity by LDS members, and I was taught it all wrong. I was so happy and excited when I learned the truth of the Trinity. I was surprised how many other things I was taught that were not Christian beliefs. I also had to get over this fear of crosses.
One of the saddest things I realized when leaving the LDS church was that many members prefer you to be an inactive Mormon atheist that to apostatize from the LDS church and join a Christian church. My brother and sister have left the LDS Church. My sister is agnostic and my brother doesn’t know what he believes. When I told my mom I was leaving the Church and will be baptizing our kids in another church she told me my leaving is the hardest for her out of all the kids. I couldn’t believe that she was more concerned about me keeping my good values and teaching my children about Christ than my brother and sister who are still figuring out what to believe.
A couple of my favorite books that go with this topic: Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and Letters to Dawkins by David Robertson.
A hearty YES YES YES! to your recommendation of C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity”!
Aaron
Let me offer a different opinion.
Christ is the savior, and I will never deny that. It is not “If it is not LDS it is nothing.” It simple is “It is the LDS church; the true gospel of Christ.”
However, just to play along, if I was to deny this true Gospel the only alternative is the Catholic church. Simply put, if there was no need for a Restoration than the original church has to be the right one, and that would be the Catholic. I will never accept the protestant denominations for this reason. If you reject the Restoration than logically you must also reject the Reformation, because either it was right and stayed right or it went wrong and required God to fix it.
Jaxi
I would rather have my children unsure than in opposition to the truth. That is the difference. It is better for someone to be unsure of the truth and thus not accept anything, than for them to be deceived and thus accept a lie as the truth.
> “If I was to deny this true Gospel the only alternative is the Catholic church.”
If this attitude was more widespread and real among Mormons, then more ex-Mormons would be flocking to the Roman Catholic Church.
Ain’t happenin’.
“Absolute morality..the absolute morality that a religious person might profess would include what:
Stoning people for adultery?
Death for apostasy?
Punishment for breaking the Sabbath?
These are all things which are religiously based, absolute moralities.
I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed, and based upon you could almost say, intelligent design. Lol.
If you look at the moralities that are accepted among modern 21st century people—we don’t believe in slavery anymore. We believe in equality of women. We believe in being gentle and kind to animals. These are all things which are entirely recent. Very little basis in biblical scripture. They are things that have developed over historical time through a consensus of reasoning, sober discussion, argument, legal theory, political and moral philosophy. They do not come from religion.
To the extent that you can find the good bits in religious scriptures, you have to cherry pick. You search your way through he bible and find the occasional verse, that is an acceptable profession of morality and you say, “look at that, that’s religion”. And you leave out all the horrible bits, and you say “…well we don’t believe that anymore we’ve grown out of it”. Well of course we’ve grown out of it, because of secular moral philosophy and rational discussion.”
> “If I was to deny this true Gospel the only alternative is the Catholic church.”
If this attitude was more widespread and real among Mormons, then more ex-Mormons would be flocking to the Roman Catholic Church.
Why would I trade one legalistic, ritualistic church for another? Why is it so hard for people to just pick up the Bible and read? It’s all in there. I put my faith in Jesus and Him alone. I don’t need a multi-billion dollar corporation to intervene for me, I don’t put my Salvation or faith in an organization. Did Jesus say follow the Mormons or follow the Catholics, Methodists, Southern Baptists, etc..? No, He said “Follow Me.” Mormons need to get over this obsession they have with “churches” and come to a full understanding of God’s Church. It’s not about “churches” or in other words “denominations.” Please pick up a Bible and read what God’s Church is.
Jaxi,
Welcome to the board. I’m an ex-Mormon as well. It’s good to see someone new!
MCHammer, upon what do you ultimately base your ethics? Please read an introduction to the issue from the perspective of a Christian theist.
shematwater
>”if I was to deny this true Gospel the only alternative is the Catholic church.”
I know this comment was for Aaron but please excuse me commenting on it as well. I am actually Eastern Orthodox, so that statement isn’t really a problem for me. I do acknowledge that the Reformation was a good thing, because the Roman Catholic Church did start to do somethings that are not Biblical. That does not mean that because one rejects the so called “Restoration” doesn’t mean one has to reject the Reformation, which was a natural result of a doctrinal problem. But even though I am a Catholic this is what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches is the Church of Christ taken from the comment section in my Orthodox Bible
“The Church is PEOPLE, men and women who are energized by the Holy Spirit. For to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” It also says, “‘For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.(1 Ti 2:5)’ But because this Mediator established the Church which is His body, we who are joined to Him are joined to His Church as well.”
The Church of Christ is not an institution. It is the people, joined to Christ. You really believe that the LDS people are the only people on earth joined to Christ? Salvation is not through a Church, it is through Christ. That being said, Christians still need the Church because we need each other to form the body. What is a finger without a hand and so forth. We need to look after one another and pray for each other. In Mormonism “the Church” is the institution.” How many times I have heard members say, “the Church says…” They are not talking about the people, they are talking about the leaders.
> It is not “If it is not LDS it is nothing.” It simple is “It is the LDS church; the true gospel of Christ.”
Yes, I would agree with that to some degree. But when you figure out LDS Church is not true, members are left with nothing. Members are engrained with the thought that everyone else is so wrong, confused, and deceived. Then when members find out LDS Church is wrong, the natural conclusion is you can’t trust anyone. Atheism and agnosticism is a safe place for Mormons who feel this way.
> “I would rather have my children unsure than in opposition to the truth. That is the difference. It is better for someone to be unsure of the truth and thus not accept anything, than for them to be deceived and thus accept a lie as the truth.”
What truth am I in opposition to? What lie am I believing?
Kate
Thanks
> “I don’t put my Salvation or faith in an organization. Did Jesus say follow the Mormons or follow the Catholics, Methodists, Southern Baptists, etc..? No, He said “Follow Me.” Mormons need to get over this obsession they have with “churches” and come to a full understanding of God’s Church. It’s not about “churches” or in other words “denominations.” Please pick up a Bible and read what God’s Church is.”
Amen
Shem,
the Bible is clear, Everyone will be with out excuse. You wont stand before Jesus and say, I’m sorry I never knew. Jesus will remind you and Jason and everyone else that they heard the message and they rejected it.
Like in a previous thread, I said to you, JS was told a bedtime story by his father the devil before he went into eternal Unrest. The bedtime story involved a non-existent language, Reformed Egyptian. If LDS cannot prove this exists, then your reading a Fairy tale, The BoM.
Now I know you said you dont care about evidence and it’s all about faith, but here is the problem, The Bible NEVER says have blind faith, Jesus gave evidence, John the baptist asked for evidence and Jesus never said, asking for evidence is wrong.
Here is a question, I suspect you wont answer it, If we have no evidence, then who do you know your right and how can you or your church tell me I am wrong? Your church claims their are only two churchs, so how do you know I am in the wrong one if you have no evidence?
Faith alone is nothing more than a guess when the JW’s or Muslims, or atheists or any one of the thousands of other groups all claim to be the correct view.
Then you claimed on a former topic JS loved the BoM and you do to and you use it in LDS classes more than any other book. Sorry But I dont believe your being honest and here is why? If you claim the garden of eden does not exist and if I cannot prove it then I have faith and so do you, then that shows you dont know your bible. The earth according to the Bible had a world wide flood that would have destroyed the Garden, so of course I cannot prove it.
Then when you act as if it never existed, then that tells me you dont believe the Bible and JS changed the Bible and LDS claim it is not translated correctly, so how can you say it cannot be trusted yet you still love it?
As i have shared before, 36 yrs in the Mormon church, and now I find myself looking back with a clear sight of a 17 yr teen in 1975, wow, what did i know about the real truth behind the Mormon church ? nothing, it took till 2011 Sep, before I came out of the fog.
Now I cant ever get pulled into a building, a Pastor, or doctrine, but ONLY the words that came from Jesus Christs mouth when he lived, those words give me life , today, and tomorrow.
Its not about our beliefs, but our behavior , that comes from living Christs words.
So we can go back and forth and get at each other day after day , month after month, even years go by, I will not become bitter for 36 long years that i was lost, but, to be better for all that is in front of me.
Jaxi, I second what Kate said about welcoming you here.
MCHammer , would you care to share how you arrived at your present opinion about “religion”?
I don’t have a David Letterman top ten reasons Mormons give when someone leaves the LDS religion/church but I think I have the top five.
1. They were offended by someone in the church.
2. They either have fallen into or want to sin.
3. They were hanging around anti websites.
4. Satan has deceived them.
5. They never had a strong testimony anyway.
John Dehlin of “Mormon Stories” fame has been in, out and now recently back in the Mormon church did an on-line survey of disaffected Mormons. He got 3,000 responses and the results of the survey are interesting.
First of all he found that the top five reasons given by those in the church for those leaving the church are bogus.
I’m doing this from memory but what generally happens is that Mormons begin to learn things about Joseph Smith, the church etc. that they never knew. They react by feeling they have been lied to. The information they gather generally comes directly from church sources.
They report that the Mormon apologetic websites generally are not helpful because the information there is so weak in giving real answers and explanations.
Dehlin says that this idea that the people are being deceived by Satan doesn’t hold up because the information people find that turns them off to Mormonism, is in fact true.
I get a kick out of Dehlin because after all of it he’ll say something like, “But that’s not a reason to leave the LDS church.” “Oh really?”, I find myself exclaiming. You just indicted the LDS church and Mormonism, the information is true, but people shouldn’t leave?
There are people known as social Mormons. They absolutely love the culture of Mormonism. They grew-up in it. It provides their cultural identity. Others, like the former Mormons who post here, have no time for the LDS church once they find out it’s bogus.
My concern for folks is their immortal souls.
Over the years I’ve spent a lot of time on ex Mormon sites, not participating I might add, & while they can be very informative as regards the inner working of the Mormon corporation they are revealing in another perhaps unintended way. Almost to a man, or woman, the people posting on those sites are atheists. Aaron is right about ex-Mormons becoming atheist but I’m not at all sure if he’s right about atheists having a hard time staying atheists, I’ve come across some pretty die-hard atheists on those sites, & to be honest, a lot of statistics can prove whatever you wish them to prove, Sorry Aaron, I’m not having a go at you, I just happen to disagree on that particular point. Evidence tends to show, that in the western world at least, secularism is becoming the norm. I agree that talking to atheists along the lines suggested is worth trying but to be honest, & I’m talking only from my own experience, it doesn’t work, atheists are generally happy in their disbelief & aren’t interested in evidence, they don’t want to know.
Anyway, be that as it may, a few years ago after listening to the views of a multitude of ex-Mormon atheists over a long period of time I came to this conclusion. The enemy, using Joseph Smith as his instrument, had come up with a foolproof plan, (from his point of view) if people could be converted to Mormonism & remained members they would never know the reality of salvation & if they found out that the corporation was a total fraud & left, so what? Most would give up on God & be lost anyway. You have to admit that it’s been a pretty effective plan so far.
Falcon
You’re certainly right about social Mormons, my ex-wife happens to be one. I’ve spoken to her many times about the deception of the Mormon corporation & her answer is, “maybe you’re right but I’m happy” Like me she’s a pensioner with only a state pension, a pension calculated by government to be just enough to live on. Yet those Mammon worshipers take 10% of it & leave her struggling to buy food & pay her bills. I can’t begin to tell you how disgusted & angry I am at that evil Godless organization.
Ironman1995, it is wonderful that you have had your eyes opened to understand that the Mormon church is false, and that you still trust Jesus. 🙂
I’m confused though about how you came to your conclusion that, “It’s not about our beliefs, but our behavior , that comes from living Christs words.” Perhaps this was a typo? According to Jesus, beliefs matter very much. Listen to His words in John 6:28-29. When He was asked, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus did not list a set of behavior guidelines to follow. Instead He answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:40, “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Our behavior is a result of our beliefs. Behavior is secondary while beliefs are primary or foundational. God is very much interested in our thoughts, beliefs, ideas. Doing a bunch of good works/behavior with the belief that you are bringing yourself glory brings condemnation (Luke 18:9-14).
MCHammer
I appreciate your comment. However, I disagree that modern intellectualism with reasoning and discussion is going to bring us closer to a an absolute true morality or make us more moral. The 21st century is very much about individualism. When I speak of individualism I am not talking about freedom. Freedom is a religious belief. We believe God wants us to be free and to have free will. One of the very first lessons in the Bible is that we have free will. Individualism is a moral problem in that it promotes the idea that there is no real morality and that everyone can decide their own morality. Individualism is about there being many truths. I say one thing is moral, and someone else says something else is. There are some beautiful things about the modern age but there are some real problems as well.
Christianity professes that there is one truth and that there is a universal morality. Based on your comment it seems you are saying that you believe that Bible morality changes and based on that Christianity is not true. I disagree with that thought as well. When I look at history I would say that philanthropic ideals that are in modern western cultures were inherited by the Byzantine period. Philanthropy came out of the 5th century Byzantine Christian east and Orthodox West, which gets its roots from the Jews. The Jewish people had a strict moral code. They were taught to be very kind to strangers, almost treating them like royalty. They took care of the widows and orphans. That being said the Old Testament Jews were not perfect; they made some bad choices and did some bad things. Old Testament Jews are not the standard on morality. Christ is the standard. So I do not believe that I cherry pick my morality. I try to follow Christ, God in flesh, and I believe that He gave the world the standard in which to live.
Do you believe in absolute morality? Based on your comment I would assume that you do because you seem to be saying that over time we are coming closer to that morality. What are we getting closer to? What is that standard within man that makes them want to be moral?
I love talking to ex-catholic and evangelicals who are now mormon.
Aaron
I never claimed my opinion was common in regards to the Catholic church. I merely offered a different one than that offered in the article.
I think most people don’t go to the Catholic church because they are like Kate and don’t like the rules and regulations.
Jaxi
“You really believe that the LDS people are the only people on earth joined to Christ?”
Yes, because they are the only ones who have accepted his true gospel and have joined themselves to his church through authorized baptism. Now, I do not believe they are the only people living decent, moral lives; nor do I believe they are the only people with honest faith in Christ. But until the actions is taken to prove that faith they are not joined to Christ.
Now I agree that it is Christ that brings salvation, but he does so through the Church, just as he has done so from the beginning. He calls men to the ministry and organizes them into a body and a church, and it is only through that organization that he operates to bring salvation to men. He does not operate through multiple venues and organizations. We need to church, not to bring us salvation, but to bring us to Christ, who then gives us salvation.
“But when you figure out LDS Church is not true, members are left with nothing.”
My point is that it is true, and so there is nothing else. It is not that I am forced to decide between this being true or no church being true. That decision has already but made, the truth is revealed, and it is had in this church and no other. It is not a matter of this church being proven false, because it is already proven true.
“What truth am I in opposition to? What lie am I believing?”
You are in opposition to the truth of the gospel as you have accepted the lie that is mainstream Christianity. Now, I understand you don’t believe this, but look at it from your parents perspective.
MCHammer
I understand your argument, but I would say this: Does your view of morality deal only with this life, or does it encompass the eternal worlds before and after this life? People site many passages from the Bible and claim it shows a lower morality, but they are only concerned with this life and fail to actually think of what comes after.
Rick
“If we have no evidence, then who do you know your right and how can you or your church tell me I am wrong?”
I have evidence, but it is of a nature that you reject. However, the Bible does require a blind faith for most of it, though even a logical faith has not real evidence.
Beyond this I can’t really make out your meaning in anything you say. You make claims as to what I said and did in past posts, but none of is bares more than a superficial resemblance to what I actually said. So, until you can be more coherent in your comments I am not able to respond to them.
I think there is a reason that people who leave the mormon church do not go anywhere else. For one, who really turns catholic that wasnt born catholic? Do people really believe in the Creed still? How much evidence do you need of a corrupt church that fudged everything from its beginning to now, including scriptural changes to supports its most basic ideas, suppression, murderings, etc.
Now, since every other christian church is just an offshoot pretty much of the catholic church, can you not figure out why an ex-mormon goes athiest? What are your choices? I would be athiest before i joined up with something so blatantly corrupt and false.
On top of that, all the catholic offshoots pretty much offer nothing. What do we do all day after we die, what is the purpose, god is some immaterial blob without passions, etc. Religion should offer answers, and the catholic church and its offshoots do not. Actually, they hardly even agree with each other from congregation to congregation. I have had so many different baptist and evangelical friends that had no idea what they believed. It was more of a social gathering than anything at church too.
I have gone with friends to different evangelical churches and it was pretty much all about money, music, and a good time. And in the end, I guess we all felt the “spirit”. Not sure. I did feel someone grab my butt though at one point when we were all standing up clapping. It’s just silly nonsense. So to me, while i think the atheist in greatly fooling him/herself, i think i can see why they laugh at religion.
shem,
“I think most people don’t go to the Catholic church because they are like Kate and don’t like the rules and regulations.”
Is this seriously all you got out of my post? I would love rules and regulations if that were truly what brings me to Jesus. It’s not. Mormons throw Jesus out the window for rules and regulations lol! I’m all about Jesus and His work on the Cross. Did you get that? I’m all about Jesus and His work on the Cross…..Not about making sure I don’t drink a cup of tea or I’ll lose my temple recommend which is my ticket to Heaven.
Where is Jesus in your church? He’s in line behind your false prophets, yourself, and all your church’s rules and regulations. I know you will claim he’s front and center but don’t forget I was one of you and I know exactly where He is in Mormonism. In Mormonism, Jesus can’t give you eternal life without your help. He can’t give eternal life to others without the help of Mormons either (baptism for the dead) Please lose your obsession about denominations and churches and just put your faith in Jesus. John 14:6
fightinglee,
I understand what you are saying. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I left Mormonism and I didn’t become an Atheist. I didn’t “join” any church except God’s church. I don’t feel that I have to attend a denomination at all. I don’t associate myself with any denomination or group. My nephew has become an Atheist after leaving because he’s so angry at the lies the LDS church has spewed all of his life. So some become Atheist because of anger as well.
When I figured out the LDS church wasn’t what it claimed to be, I went out and bought a Bible with no affiliation to the LDS church (no chapter headings or footnotes giving the LDS spin) and I just read it. I wanted to know what Jesus himself said. That’s who I trusted. It wasn’t all that complicated. What I found was that Jesus contradicted everything I was taught as a Mormon.
You said:
“On top of that, all the catholic offshoots pretty much offer nothing.”
Once again it’s not about denominations. It’s about Jesus and His work on the Cross. It’s about Jesus and His Gospel. You shouldn’t be looking at denominations for answers, you should be looking to God’s Word. It’s all in there. Churches are good for fellowshipping and if you find one that teaches God’s Word that’s great (I may take flack from Christians here). I have one that I attend sometimes, but I don’t look to that church for answers about God. I open the Bible and go directly to the source.
> “I love talking to ex-catholic and evangelicals who are now mormon.”
Me too! Send them my way.
Aaron said: “Me too! Send them my way.”
haha. nice one.
Kate,
Yep, i think we probably agree in a lot of ways. I would be interested in what ways you think our Savior’s teachings contradict mormon doctrine, not in a way of argument but to see your point of view. I have not always been mormon, but my view of Christ outside of the church was never far from what i have been taught within in it. So I would appreciate your thoughts!
As far as denominations, i would disgree, and its not a full disagreement. I completely understand where you are coming from in what you said. I agree that your relationship with God, and how you follow that faith in him, should not hinge on what building you attend or who you rub shoulders with. However, as the early christians believed, the church was about support and worship. I am guessing that you do not partake of sacrament each week, yet Jesus did teach this. He did teach about baptism, and he went out and sought someone specific when he got baptized.
I think too often we ask, what can we get from church, and what good does it do for a person? When I have asked myself those questions Kate, I have often been reminded in way of the phone call from an elders quorum president or a bishop who has directed me to someone in bad circumstances or in need of help. I have received phone calls from families i teach in tears and in need of a moment of my time. Sometimes we should stop asking about what good is a church to me, and more, what good can i be to the church. That doesnt mean I dont help outside of the church. I have many friends from other beliefs and have been in many circumstances outside of church where i have been fortunate enough to be in a place to give aid, but again, i think it is my attendance in that church, as well as its support and great leaders and teachers that have helped to shape me into a person who has desired to help and follow Christ.
Remember, Christ didnt just walk out and say, I can do this all on my own. He called twelve apostles to help him, and he directed them to build a church and to teach others and baptize.
I think what you are talking about more of is the culture of religion and, in particular, the mormon culture. I dont know what lies you are referring to, but i would surmise something along the lines of plural marriage or blacks and the priesthood and these things. I doubt the church “lied” to you about them. Now, is church worship designed to spill every bit of laundry in the church’s history? Is it a university place where it is designed to further intellectual research? No, it is designed to stimulate faith and service. I have never seen it as the church’s duty to fill me in on every part of church history. I have devoted a lot of personal time to that. Church time is designed to build faith and testimony. To make you better. Does the study of plural marriage make you better? Many past ensign talks have mentioned these things. Many faithful members have written on all these subjects if you care to research them, but they dont change your relationship with God.
Oh yeah Kate,
I forgot to mention an important aspect of your message. I agree that members build up hedges around Christ. I think the word of wisdom is a classic example of some pharisee/scribe action going on. I think this has been born up more from “mormon culture” than complete mormon doctrine. I am not saying the doctrine of obedience in the word of wisdom is wrong, but sometimes the practice and focal point defnately is!!!!
To go to the temple, i cant go if I am smoking, but i can go if I weigh 400 lbs and am about to give myself a heartattack from Wendy’s triple bypass burgers everyday???? Well, so it doesnt make total sense in those terms. On top of that, i can be a great person and drink or smoke, and i can be more worthy in many ways than someone who does not. So i get your point. There are things like that in every religion, and it is the human tendency to make worship about focal points, but christ did directly teach that faith in him is about more than just saying “i believe”. He rejected the publican who asked to follow him, telling him to offer everything he had. Christ did make demands, but he never threw someone away because they were less than perfect. Obediece was a message of Christ’s and his apostles.
This survey, recently published, is an interesting snapshot into Mormon disbelief. I don’t want to attempt to summarize it, but here are a couple of excerpts. I’m including a link to the results of the survey at the bottom. There are also some interesting comments from survey participants.
“…….our goal with this survey, “Understanding Mormon Disbelief,” is to increase understanding of issues relating to Mormons who, having once held firm belief in the Church, subsequently lose that belief in part or whole. Mormons sometimes refer to this process of losing belief or experiencing a faith crisis as “losing one’s testimony.”
“The majority (53%) of disbelievers now consider themselves Agnostic/Atheist/Humanist.22% still consider themselves Mormon: 16% exclusively Mormon, and 6% consider themselves Mormon in addition to being Atheist/Agnostic. 11% consider themselves Christian of some other denomination, 2% considered themselves Buddhist, while the remainder consider themselves Unsure/Undecided (17%).”
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Survey-Results_Understanding-Mormon-Disbelief-Mar20121.pdf
Falcon, from my point of view of being a member but not always having been a member of the lds church, I can say, that for the majority of mormons that leave, it is about losing faith. Its not about finding something better, but in an actual loss of faith. For churches who are on the decline in growth, or negative growth, like the Presbyterians, its about finding something better/more attractive.
So I think for a lot of mormons, they cant find anything better once they have lost their testimony. They feel that they have found the lds church is not true, but when they look around, they dont see anything else more fulfilling. They have gone with the best option and they felt it failed them, so now its atheist/agnostic.
I think Kate said it well already, fool me once . . .
Every day my first post & sometimes the second is not accepted until I have waited anything up to 6 or 7 hours for moderation & while I wait I see other comments accepted one after the other. By the time my comments are accepted the debate has moved on & what I had to say has become irrelevant, no one is going to scroll back looking for something they don’t know is there. I would be fine with this if it was now & again, as in Ricks case yesterday, but it isn’t now & again, it’s been this way every day for the last week or more. I tried to say Hi & welcome to Jaxi the first day he came in here but was unable to because my post was not accepted. The following day I had an email telling me that my post had been rejected because I had reached the limit of 6, strange that 2 others posting on the same topic were allowed 8! Today I posted a comment at 7:14am, 6 hours & 11 comments later I’m still waiting. An hour after that I posted on a different topic in response to Jasonrae, an important comment in my opinion, & yet again I have to wait for moderation while I watch other comments being accepted. I’m not asking for, neither do I expect, preferential treatment, all I ask for is fair treatment because I’m quite sure this isn’t happening to anyone else apart from the occasional instance mentioned above. I don’t like to complain or make a fuss but if I’m unable to make any kind of meaningful contribution & my remarks will never be read by the intended recipient, there seems little point in my being here.
Thank you.
I have made another attempt to post a reply to jasonrae to no avail, “awaiting moderation” I’m told for the umpteenth time. I find it rather disconcerting that this post & my previous one above are deemed acceptable but comments made regarding the topic in question has to await moderation for several hours. I came to this site in the mistaken belief that I could possibly contribute something, it now seems I was wrong & perhaps would be better for all concerned if I just move on.
Thanks again.
Old man, if you are reading this and have not moved on yet le t. Me say this, please dont leave. I know this mod jail thing stinks, I have. The same.Issue at times and get overly ffrustrated.
But I for one love having you here, you remind me of someone I know and I think it, s great, please see if this issue gets sovled first.
Rick, thank you for your kind words, they mean a lot to me & are much appreciated. Believe me when I say I would much rather be here making the odd comment that might click for someone than to be moving on, but in all honesty I can contribute nothing if every comment I make disappears into “mod jail” as you call it. By the way, I love the humour in that remark. As I said above this isn’t now & again, its every day & is an extremely frustrating thing to experience made worse by the fact that I can post something like this but not respond to comments made to me or about me. Incidentally in case my remarks have been misunderstood, I’m not pointing a finger at anyone, it’s just something that has happened.
Thanks again Rick, you’re a gent.
Sharon just returned from Israel (woo hoo!), but has hurt her leg (Sharon, no fun… that sucks), and I’m busy with work, and I presume grindael is busy too. So sorry about the recent moderation backlog. I presume it’ll be back to normal next week.
Oldman,
I only post on this blog, I am not a Mod or dont write posts or anything, so I’m hoping they see what you wrote and try and figure this out. But either way, if you stay or leave, Hopefully Stay, then I can say It was nice talking with you and if you reply to Mormons in another venue, keep up the good work.
I would think that if anyone had the problems with Posts not getting posted it would be me, and not you since I speak my mind and have no care if people dont like me or what I say. I will talk on this blog or in private to anyone that does not agree with how I say things or what I say. One person supposdly a christian wanted to challenge me on something I said, I publicly posted my email, said write me and lets talk, they never wrote me and they left this site and have never posted again.
Then a Mormon and me spoke briefly, I kindly offered to send them to Books, I would pat Shipping and send them to this person, all I said was, email me your address and I will send them out, They never wrote me, did not want the books and have never posted since on this blog.
Kind of annoying when people dont agree with me, but yet wont talk about it, or Mormons claim to have sole truth, yet cannot, will not answer questions or read books that offer a challenge. So I get some of the same things you do. God bless you my brother.
fightinglee,
Thanks for your comments to me. Wow, where to start. I think I will start with this:
“I don’t know what lies you are referring to, but i would surmise something along the lines of plural marriage or blacks and the priesthood and these things. I doubt the church “lied” to you about them.”
Yes sir the church did lie. I was lied to every time I sat in a lesson and was told that I am a choice daughter of God and my white skin and my church membership shows that I was a valiant spirit in the war in heaven. I was lied to about the first vision, there are several and no two are the same. I was lied to when I was taught my whole life that polygamy started with Brigham Young and the move West. I was lied to when I was taught lessons about Joseph Smith and how he translated the Gold Plates. Never was I told that he put a magic rock he found in a neighbor’s well into a hat and then stuffed his face in the hat. That’s called lying by omission. I was never taught that not only was Joseph Smith a polygamist but he married children and women already married also a lie by omission. I was lied to every time I was told that God has a body of flesh and bones, Jesus is my spirit brother and the spirit brother of Satan. I was lied to every time I was told that I couldn’t receive Celestial Glory without a temple recommend. There are many, many more but you get the picture.
“I would be interested in what ways you think our Savior’s teachings contradict mormon doctrine,”
I’m sure you are thinking about all the “do’s” such as love your neighbor, be kind and honest etc. but have you given any thought to these?
John 1:1-3
John 4:24 vs D&C 130:22 (God has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as any man.)
John 14:7-9
John 10:30
John 14:11 the last 3 vs. Jesus being our older spirit brother and the literal offspring of God the
Father and a Heavenly Mother.
John 1:12-13
Matthew 16:18 vs. The gates of Hell did overcome it and there was a need for Joseph Smith to restore it. Isn’t that calling Jesus a liar?
Luke 20:11 vs. Mormon doctrine of being married in Heaven.
I could go on and on, It really is Jesus or Joseph. We don’t need prophets today like they did in the Old Testament, Hebrews 1:1-2
My journey out of Mormonism started with an article in an old Ensign I had about the BoA. I had studied Ancient Egypt some and was well aware of the funerary god. His name is Anubis and he has the head of a Jackal. I was also familiar with the feather over the heart and also the canopic jars and the Egyptian gods on them and their purpose. Reading this article in the BoA and really looking closely at the facsimile 1, I knew that Joseph made a mistake drawing a bald head on Anubis. That started my 4 year study and exit from Mormonism. The funny thing is that when I tried to talk to other Mormons about these issues and even ask questions about it, do you know what I was told? “You are just losing your faith.” NO ONE would speak to me or answer my questions. It’s not their fault really, we are raised and conditioned this way. In fact for the first year of my research I would not look at anything not church approved. Fortunately at that time I could find and read the Journal of Discourses on Mormon.org. That was even more damaging to Mormonism for me. So did I lose my faith? Absolutely! I lost all faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and I lost faith in every prophet after him. I lost my faith in my own works to get me to Heaven. I lost faith in the entire Mormon corporation. You are wrong when you say that Mormons have nowhere else to go when they lose their faith, I went right into the arms of my Savior and put ALL of my faith in Him.
fightinglee,
Sorry that last scripture should have been Luke 20:34-35. 🙂
Sharon,
Congrats on the trip to Israel, that is on my to do list! I hope your leg is better soon!
Old man,
Please don’t go anywhere. We all have had our turn with the Mod jail 🙂 It can be frustrating but the people who run this site are awesome! Stay and hang out with us!
Kate,
Thank you for writing me back! I hear the pain and frustration come through in the email there. I’m sorry. And i am especially sorry that no one would talk to you about any of it. That is horrible and its too bad. Great post though.
I am also sorry that people lied to you. I have never been lied to about these things you mentioned. Would it be more correct to say that members/teachers or whoever lied to you about these subjects, more so than the church? What I mean is, I think you are right, there are many things conditioned into the way humans deal with criticism and how they deal with controversial issues in whatever it might be that they feel defensive about, or are scared to talk about. I cant find anything from church leaders that say that polygamy started with Brigham Young! I never was told this by the church, but I can see how people want to avoid the discussion and I know they do. You are right. So you were lied to it sounds like, but I guess we all have different experiences. Maybe it has to do with the time frame too. I dont know how long ago it was that you went through all this, but either way, people can be dishonest, for sure, or scared.
Well, anyway, I would be happy to talk about all of this. The BOA stuff has shaken many people, and has certainly been cause for more than one person leaving the church. I think it was “The Godmakers” that brought a lot of your questions first into light. How many people know the whole story on the BOA, or know the full discussion on what was translated, what we have, and all the research behind the book of moses and abraham. I would love to talk to you about this, because it is a subject i have put a lot of time into, and there is some fascinating stuff behind this! If you dont want to discuss it, then that’s fine too. I tend to get excited when i have people to speak to about scholarly work behind the pearl of great price. I need to look at the rules here before i post my email address, but I would be happy to post it if you want, or we could discuss it here (or not at all). Really though, there is a lot of misinformation about what was translated, what was found, the translation itself, and agreement on that translation. Bad assumptions lead to bad info. There are some parts of the book of moses and abraham that have actually left some non-member scholars baffled in understanding how Joseph Smith came up with what he did. There are great quotes, sources and references for these. I would be happy to share.
I totally agree, there are people out there whose first response to any church criticism is, “just pray about it” or “you are losing your faith”. That is incredibly frustrating, and personally, it makes me want to punch people, so we agree there. Check.
Alright, so about your other points. I’ll touch on a few here, and then maybe I can touch on some more in another post. I dont want this post to be a thesis! ha.
I do want to say, that most of the things you have brought up, they have been brought up in ensigns and general conference talks actually. It is a big criticism that the church hides stuff, but for instance, Dieter Uchdorf just gave a talk about the seer stones in the april 2009 conference. It has been mentioned more than a few times, so I dont agree about the lies of omission. If the church focused every talk on seer stones, plural marriage, racism in church history, etc. then i think we would run out of time for any current messages that build faith and teach doctrine. However, I will say that the church is actually in discussion currently about adding discussions about the issues you have presented into sunday school material, not as a focus, but certainly to take out the misnomer that its hidden. Like i said, these issues have been presented in ensigns and general conference talks in the past and current.
I will adress your NT scriptures in my next post. Thanks Kate.
Shem,
Reformed Egyptian does not and has never existed. So How can a Guy who claims to be a prophet of God bring a restored version Christianity from a language that has never existed? That was my point. Then I said the Bible was put into the BoM in many places word for word, this show plagurism. You deny that and say it’s all a matter of how they translated it. You cannot take a language that never existed, Translate only Bible verses in KJ English, but the rest of the Book into the language of the day, That makes no sense.
Then as I pointed out, JS Claims God told Him to “Correct” the Bible. So JS did just that, so after doing that instead of adding the “corrected” verses to the BoM, JS left those Incorrectly translated verses in the Bible. This is only one of many reasons I say JS is a false prophet. And sadly you drink the kool-aid like it was the last glass on earth, sadly it will result in eternal punishment, and not only that, but you will also be punished for the fact that you reject it in favor of false doctrine and are teaching people these false teachings.
Hey Rick, did you know that many ancient documents found since then have been found to be written in a modified egyptian? I am actually surprised you brought it up since this argument has since been abandoned by serious scholarly critics of the church. In fact, it is a subject that over the last 50 years has been more of a defense of the church than an attack.
First off, if the book of mormon is a translation, then Joseph Smith wrote the word reformed egyptian, and we dont know what the actual term was used by nephites. So the word reformed would mean that the orignial method of writing was changed in some way, or modified.
There are actually several forms of a modified, or “reformed” egyptian. By 600 BC, egyptian hieroglyphs had undergone two primary changes, first to heiratic and then to demotic. Remember, these are labels we have placed on this reformation of hieroglyphics, just as the nephites may have used their own terminology. Heiratic is one variation of egyptian heiroglyphics and demotic is believed to have derived from this and in use as early as 650 BC. You can easily research the development of these forms.
It has been shown that Hebrew scribes used Egyptian for various numerals, weights and measures. The changes in the form of these signs parallel similar chronological changes in the form of Egyptian hieratic characters, which indicates continued contact of some sort between Egyptian and Hebrew scribes, probably over several centuries. No other Semitic language has been shown to have used Egyptian hieratic signs except Hebrew (with one possible Moabite example).
There are a couple of hundred examples of such texts, the majority dating from the late seventh century, and geographically mainly from Jerusalem southward. The phenomena ends after the Babylonian captivity. (In other words, Palestinian hieratic is most common in precisely the time and location of Lehi and Nephi, and only exists in Hebrew.
Weird.
Here are some examples of texts that use demotic or hieratic:
Byblos Syllabic texts
Cretan hieroglyphics
Meroitic
Psalm 20 in demotic Egyptian
Proto-Sinaitic and the alphabet
The translation of some ancient Egyptian documents such as Papyrus Amherst 63 had eluded scholars until they realized that while the characters were Egyptian, the underlying text was Aramaic.
Moroni states that the egyptian had been reformed further by the nephites. So reformed doesnt sound like all that bad of a term to describe exactly what it was. It is amazing how luck that Joseph Smith guy was. I mean, if this were me in the 1800’s, where on earth would i come up with the idea to have hebrews write a text in a reformed Egyptian? That might be one of the last thoughts to pop into my head. It was laughed at for quite a while as absurd, and maybe rightfully so, because it sounds pretty far fetched. Then it turns out that some form of a developing change to heiroglyphics was occuring at just that time in history and is used by the hebrews. Crazy luck. I want Joseph to pick lottery numbers for me.
Hello fightinglee,
If you stated once before I missed it, can you tell me, are you a currant active Mormon? Or a former Mormon who still seems to believe or some other option?
Shem
< "Now I agree that it is Christ that brings salvation, but he does so through the Church, just as he has done so from the beginning. He calls men to the ministry and organizes them into a body and a church, and it is only through that organization that he operates to bring salvation to men. He does not operate through multiple venues and organizations. We need to church, not to bring us salvation, but to bring us to Christ, who then gives us salvation."
I agree with everything you say here except for the "only through an organization." I do believe Christ organized a body of believers. I believe Christs Church does operate to bring us to Christ and thus salvation to men. Christian Orthodoxy has a way larger claim on than the LDS Church. I have looked for the "universal apostasy." I can't find it. I brought this to the attention of my previous stake president. He said the apostasy occurred when the last apostle died. He told me it was Gods plan to take His Church off the earth from the beginning and that He secretly told the apostles to do that. The Mormons that really believe that, heaven help them. While I believe Christ organized a Church that helps bring salvation to men, salvation is not only through an organization. Thief on the cross.
< "It is not a matter of this church being proven false, because it is already proven true."
I'm sorry but this statement is laughable. Mormons can go on and on about having faith but evidence is not on the side of the LDS Church. My life was good as a Mormon. It would have been way easier to stay in than to leave. I wanted to know the LDS Church inside and out so that I could help bring people to the "one true Church." That's when I found out how much evidence is against it. I can not think of one reason why I should believe Jospeh Smith. I have many reasons to believe Christ.
I am interested to know what specific lies in mainstream Christianity that I am believing?
I have looked at this from my parents perspective. I know how badly she is hurting. She believes her eternal family is destroyed. I was about as Molly Mormon as you could get. I know the fear of, "what if my children don't accept this." Thank goodness I don't have to worry about trying to explain away all the polygamy and racism and act like that stuff actually comes from Christ.
Rick, yes I am an active member of the lds church. I can also be rather sarcastic at times so I apologize before hand (and after hand). Its ok though, after all, I am already going to he’ll anyway as you were gracious enough to point out. 🙂
Fightinglee, I am wondering about what you said to Kate in reguard to the Word of Wisdom .
Are you saying that as an active Mormon you feel you have the choice to smoke or drink and
still be allowed in the Temple ? If not you personally , can other Mormons be non abstinent from
these things and still be permitted into the Temple ?
The first part of this paragraph is not true. Non-Denominational Churches are not an offshoot of anything. They base everything on the teachings from the Bible. Also other churches without an ordained “priesthood” derived from the Catholic Church are not offshoots of Catholicism.
As a Catholic, then Lutheran, then as an investigator of an assortment of other Orthodox Churches & Seventh Day Adventism, before becoming a Mormon, I left Mormonism and became an atheist because I had always interpreted the Bible through one of them and felt that they were all alike. Once I read the Bible without the baggage of any organized religion, I left Atheism behind and embraced Jesus alone as He intended.
Old Man,
Don’t take “moderation jail” personally. It’s just a computer program mainly bouncing things into the lock-up until reviewed. I had three in there the other day.
grendael,
Brilliant observation.
“Once I read the Bible without the baggage of any organized religion, I left Atheism behind and embraced Jesus alone as He intended.”
Mormons don’t get this. They’re hung up on the “one true church”. The idea that someone can access the Father through His Son Jesus Christ without the assistance of some denomination it foreign to them.
This “one true church” idea is one that is used to conform, control and intimidate people. They just don’t get it these folks who are enslaved to an organization.
The “one true Church” is peopled by those who know who Jesus is and have gotten themselves born again by the Spirit of God.
One of my other favorite Mormon myths is that those who leave the LDS church can never be happy. I imagine it might have something to do with the fact that so many former Mormons, for a time, are really ticked-off at the LDS church. I hear/read the same story over and over again regarding their sense that they’ve been lied to, misled, and controlled and manipulated. My guess is that people who get out of prison are really happy to be out but they don’t have much good to say about the experience.
Here’s a presentation that’s done by a Mormon regarding why people leave. The subject matter would be tough for many Mormons to listen to because it blows away the myths that Mormons tell themselves.
On our current topic, it would be difficult for anyone to think that an atheist can be happy, or moral or have a full-filling life. Why not? Are there Mormons who are unhappy? Given the record of the medications handed out in Happy Valley you wonder why these folks have to take so many prescription drugs if they are happy.
I love God. I love His Son Jesus Christ. I’m born again and am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I don’t belong to a church but I do attend church services. I’m happy with my arrangement.
http://whymormonsleave.com/
Hi Kate & Falcon, thank you for your comments. Perhaps I should explain again that my complaint was not about “mod jail”, that’s to be expected from time to time. I was referring to the fact that it’s not now & again, it’s every day without fail & made worse by the fact that my “complaining” comments are immediately accepted while my replies to other posters are not. That in my opinion doesn’t add up. As I said before, I don’t blame anyone for this, it happens, I have no idea why, but I do not believe that it happens this way, every day, with anyone else. No, I’m not an ex-Mormon with a persecution complex. (smile)
Thanks again & keep up the good work.
Grindael, if I have given offence to you or any other of the moderators in here then I apologise, let me assure you that was never my intent, on the contrary, I have the greatest respect for all of you & the work you do in here. Long may you do so.
Why I’m here
I said I might as well move on & that was my intention when I finally got to bed last night. I’ve slept on it, I’ve thought on it, only to find that I can’t (Sorry Jason)
The things I read in here from people who have been deceived wont allow me to do it. I feel sadness for them but they at least have heard the truth, I feel a far greater sadness for the millions who never hear the truth but who, week after week, year on year, are used & abused by the leaders of the corporation. I feel an ever-growing anger directed at those leaders who practice deception in order to expand their cult of Mammon worship. What is being attempted on this site is entirely worthwhile if it can help remove false teachings from people minds, remove the chains of a “restored gospel” from their ankles & replace those man made things with the freedom to be found in Gods word.
Thanks for hearing me out.
grindael,
< "As a Catholic, then Lutheran, then as an investigator of an assortment of other Orthodox Churches & Seventh Day Adventism, before becoming a Mormon, I left Mormonism and became an atheist because I had always interpreted the Bible through one of them and felt that they were all alike. Once I read the Bible without the baggage of any organized religion, I left Atheism behind and embraced Jesus alone as He intended."
I think it is great what you have done. As an Orthodox Christian, I can't help feel a little offense at being called "all alike," when compared to these other groups. It sounded like it had some negative connotation to it. I think there are some huge differences between them. I would hate for there to be some kind of denominational bash. It comes off to me as if you are saying non denominational Christianity is the only way. I would think that whether you belong to a denomination or not we all believe that we are in the same Church, and denominations don't matter, whether you belong to one or not. I am hoping you meant that non denominational Christianity is the best path for you?
I might bring up my Orthodoxy a lot and I hope no one takes that as a call for everyone to do the same as I. I bring it up mainly for the LDS who are authority obsessed. If Mormons are going to make a claim for universal apostasy they need to show it. I believe Orthodoxy is a problem for Mormons in regards to the apostasy claim.
Also, I wanted to mention. You said, assortment of Orthodoxy Churches. I believe there are only two, Coptic and Eastern. The different areas such as Russian Orthodox, Greek, Antiochian etc. are not separate denominations of Orthodoxy. That is just the area that Eastern Church is from but they are the same.
Old Man.
I would guess that all of us get cult fatigue because it is indeed a spiritual battle. I’m second on the longevity list after rick. I can’t remember if its been four or five years. We cycle through Mormon posters about every six weeks. They don’t stick around that long.
I think what bugs me the most is that the corporation sends these idealistic naive kids out to try and recruit more people into the sect. The prospects don’t get the truth about the LDS church and Mormonism but a white-washed feelings generating presentation. Is it any wonder that half of the MM go inactive within five years of their mission.
Mormonism has two big enemies. It’s the Bible and the internet. Mormons who have doubts about the truth claims of Mormonism can access information 24/7 on the net. Those who begin reading the Bible have a chance to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ once the encounter Him as He is presented (in the Bible).
Hey Mike. No, i am not saying that a mormon can smoke and drink and obtain a Temple ordinance. I did not explain myself well. I was having a conversation with Kate that about how all religions, including mormons, can tend to focus on so many details that they forget the bigger picture, which is Christ. Referring to my comments about worthiness, i was simply saying that I think things aren’t always so black and white as some members and non members think. I do know people that follow the word of wisdom perfectly and it is a temple interview question, but there is no interview question like, “Are you an a hole?” that is subjective I understand but I know plenty of people that struggle with the word of wisdom who I believe are more worthy than some who don’t. Anyway, some members would be surprised to find that exceptions can and are made in some cases. Rarely are things as black and white as everyone presumes, both in and out of the church.
Falcon, from your point of view you may see the bible as an enemy to mormons, the lds view of the bible was actually one of the primary points that drew me into the church and I have found that to be true for several friends of mine. I find the lds interpretation of the bible to be the most correct. You disagree. Mormons themselves see the bible interpretation of thier church to be a very strong selling point to their faith. For instance the fact that you cannot find any teachings of the trinity in it is just one example.
You want to apply your very based view against the church and then apply it to some thought that mormons see it the same way.
Falcon, are you really saying that you think half of retunf missionaries go inactive within five years? Or that because mormons don’t want to keep coming to a site where they are told they are going to hell and are insulted with every other post that they somehow don’t have faith any longer? No they are just tired of silly arguments with ignorant people. If you want to have intelligent conversation I will stick around for a long time, if your just going to demean and mock with no decorum of respect, then no, no one will stick around for that. For you it is a community of like minded people, for me it’s a hostile environment.