For many years the LDS Church-owned newspaper Church News included a column called “Living by the Scriptures.” This weekly column was described by the newspaper in this way:
“‘Living by the Scriptures’ is another in a series of Church News reader response articles. Was there a time when a particular scripture touched you, when it offered comfort, guidance and much-needed support? If so, please describe your experience in 250-300 words, giving the scripture reference and telling how it affected you.”
In 1997 I decided to send a submission to Church News relating an experience I had with a specific Scripture that gave me comfort, guidance and much-needed support at a pivotal point in my life. This is what I wrote:
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” Isaiah 43:10
Several years ago I was challenged in my faith to examine the claims of a different religion. This other church insisted that it alone was pleasing to God and that my religion was wrong.
I spent many hours each day studying both my own faith and the claims of the challenging faith. I would compare and contrast the teachings of both, endeavoring to come to a firm knowledge of the truth.
As I would study, I would sometimes be overwhelmed by the strong testimonies of those from the other church. Even though the doctrines of this religion were very different from what I had always believed to be true, I found myself periodically thinking, “Maybe this is the true church. Maybe everything I have been taught in my church is not right.”
However, throughout this extended period I could sense God asking me, “But who do they say that I am?” The answer to this question was the key to whether their claims were true or not. God had told me, through the prophet Isaiah, certain things about Himself so I would “know and believe” and “understand” who He is; and this so I could evaluate claims people would make in His name. The knowledge given through this Scripture verse, that there is only one true God – and will never ever be any others – became the anchor that held me firmly to the truth when I was being tempted to turn away and follow after a different God. The Word of God is very precious to me; I thank my Father in heaven that He kept me from deception and helped me to see the foundational flaw in that other church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
-Sharon Lindbloom
My submission was never chosen for publication in Church News and “Living by the Scriptures” is no longer a regular feature in the Mormon newspaper. But I like the idea promoted by the column. To speak of the way God and His Word has been active in our lives is always a good idea. Therefore, I invite you, friends in the Mormon Coffee community, to carry on that old Church News tradition. You may tell us here, or you may tell those people God brings across your path in person, but along with Daniel, those of us who love God should all agree, “It has seemed good to me to show the signs and wonders that the Most High God has done for me” (Daniel 4:2).
Come and hear, all you who fear God,
and I will tell what he has done for my soul.
–Psalm 66:16
When I was first discovering the real LDS Church history I became so confused. Adam Dod Doctrine was hard to take. I had a home teacher tell me once that LDS doctrine is getting watered down because members can’t accept it so we are losing sacred truths. He also introduced me to fact that LDS used to teach Christ was a polygamist and that was the real reason he was crucified. Needless to say I couldn’t even figure out who God was anymore. Being the TBM I was, I went out to the woods to pray. I just wanted God to tell me who He was. I had a dream that night that I was teaching Sunday School in a Church that was clearly not an LDS building. (I was a LDS Snday School Teacher at the time.) I was putting away these prophet dolls. strangely none of them were LDS prophets. I was searching for Heavenly Father. I couldn’t find Him. All I could find was Christ. The scripture came to my mind, John 14:9 “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” It was a strange scripture for me to think of because I never really read the New Testament or at least hadn’t spent much time studying it. This scripture is special to me because it started my search for the truth about who God is. When my whole LDS world came crumbling down I was able to hold onto that scripture that was given to me and trust the words of Christ. This dream made so much more sense to me when I accepted the Trinity. As an LDS person I should have been able to find an image of Heavenly Father. LDS Church has a picture of Heavenly Father that they get kids learning as one of the first Sunbeam lessons. I can’t tell you how many coloring sheets I handed out with images of Heavenly Father and even the Holy Ghost.
Sharon, it’s possible that your unpublished submission to the Church News was a contributing factor in the demise of “living by the scriptures” I can’t imagine that the newspaper would welcome scripture references that actually showed LDS doctrine to be false.
I’m not sure that I can show any one specific passage from scripture that stands out in my mind, although I would like to say though this, sometimes a passage will convey something new to me when it is read a second or even a third time, many are the times I have said quietly, “wow, now I understand, thank you Lord for showing that to me.”
We talk of Gods word being a “living word” & perhaps that’s what I’m trying to say, His word is alive, it constantly reveals something new without the words as written ever changing.
Quick question, has the topic preceeding this one been closed? I tried posting a response to fightinglee a few minutes ago & failed.
Sharon,
You are a good writer (not that you need my praise)! I enjoyed the article. I have taken your challenge and that is what led me to my faith in the LDS church.
I have never been overly impressed with testimonies of other people though, because they do not affect my personal belief. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you allow the testimonies of others to persuade you or hold you up, then be prepared to change your mind a lot.
Fightinglee,
I agree with you to some degree on testimonies but that is what the gospel is, a collection of people’s testimonies, so you have to believe testimonies to some degree.
Im really curious. What led me out of Mormonism was the New Testament. You say the Bible is what led you into Mormonism. I think this is the perfect topic for you to share with us all those scriptures that brought you to the LDS Church.
Jaxi,
Well your account of your dream is about the coolest thing I’ve read for some time. God spoke to you in a dream and testified to His nature. You came to see who Jesus is in a miraculous way. Isn’t it amazing how God works? I suppose we could ask, “Why you?”. Why doesn’t everyone get a miraculous dream?
It reminds me of the dreams in the Bible especially at the beginning of Matthew. However dreams are all through the NT.
People have all sorts of dreams and often times they want to attribute them to God but they aren’t (from God). When the dream is consistent with what God has revealed to us about Himself in His Word then you have the supporting evidence.
I could set us off on a long and controversial discussion about “election” but I’ll just let your story speak for itself. God chose you!
I say praise His Holy Name!
Falcon
“I suppose we could ask, “Why you?” Why doesn’t everyone get a miraculous dream?”
Perhaps I’m wrong to comment on something as intensely personal as Jaxi’s experience but I think that God draws sincere people to himself in an enormous variety of ways, what’s effective for one may not be as effective for another I’ll try to explain what I mean & remember it’s nothing more than an opinion.
Jaxi, & I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, did what Mormons believe Joseph Smith did, he went to the woods to pray but unlike Joseph Smith, Jaxi’s story was not a fabrication, God heard him & answered. Possibly because of his Mormon background (I’m guessing here) that was the most effective way of reaching him.
We’re all different & God knows what needs to be done to draw a person to Himself.
Count me among the skeptics when a Mormon says that he was led into Mormonism as the result of studying the Bible. That’s like saying someone got led into the Hindu or Buddhist religion by studying the Bible.
There’s as much Hinduism or Buddhism in the Bible as there is Mormonism which is to say none.
I can’t find Mormonism in the Bible. Take a look at the ever evolving doctrines, beliefs and practices of Mormonism and see if any of it is in the Bible. There are certain sects of Mormonism that would say the same thing because they reject Mormonism as taught by the Salt Lake City branch.
It’s interesting that someone should make the claim that they came to Mormonism as a result of studying the Bible since Mormons claim that the Bible is a corrupted text as a result of a dastardly scheme and conspiracy.
I’m sure we can find some folks that would tell us that they came to believe in UFOs as a result of studying the Bible.
rick and I’ve asked Mormons to show us where the Mormonism is in the Bible and they go silent. There’s no sign of plural marriage in the early church as a means of becoming a god which is also not in the Bible. We don’t have any Christian temples where believers practiced Free Mason rituals and rites. We don’t have plurality of gods and mother gods and father gods procreating spirit children.
No, studying the Bible won’t bring someone to believe in Mormonism. That’s not just a reach but is as hard to believe as men marrying other men’s wives as commanded to do so by the Lord.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRFAXZGHDGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEkJlXU4Kr0
Please accept my apologies for the length of this comment. I tend to talk to much.
As for the “Why me?” I just think it was a blessing, as many people receive blessings, but in all sorts of different ways. I was so entrenched in Mormonism. I read through all the Doctrine of Salvation volumes by Joseph Fielding Smith when I was 11. I remember trying to convert all my friends in High School. I did the early morning seminary. I went to BYU, married in the temple, and popped out four babies within 5 years. The year before I left I had given a severely highlighted Book of Mormon to my neighbor that I highlighted just for her. I was in the Primary Presidency and I was bearing my testimony in sacrament meeting almost every month. I’m not bragging; I’m just trying to convey how Mormonism was my life and identity. And I was happy. I had no complaints about my LDS life.
The only problem was that I was having trouble with a couple doctrinal and historical issues. The more I looked into the issues (using LDS primary resources) hoping to find info to prove Mormonism and make me a better missionary, the more issues I uncovered. And they grew and grew. All through this time I never doubted for a second it was true. I just needed to keep the faith and hang on and get more involved in the Church. I was pouring all my life into it at this point. Keeping my faith was exhausting, with all the problems I had accidentally uncovered. Then I asked myself, “What if it’s not true?” I cannot not describe the relief I felt when I asked myself that.
But then I was terrified because I didn’t know what to believe. I had always been convinced the Bible was corrupt. I avoided crosses like a vampire. I was convinced that anyone that believed the Trinity was deluded. But I was able to look back on that dream a year later and think, God pointed me to His Word and He pointed me to the Bible. He didn’t tell me what to do during the dream. He didn’t even tell me to leave the LDS Church. I was simply pointed to the Word. The New Testament went from a corrupted book to my favorite almost over night. I needed that experience to help me through the 7 hours of Bishop and Stake President interviews when I left. I was comforted to be able to tell Church leaders when they asked me if I was being guided by the Spirit. I could confidently say “Yes.”
My husband was a little jealous that he never had “a dream.” I actually come from a line of dreamers. My husband has a spiritual gift that I think is even greater though. And that is his simple faith. I have always had to work much harder to keep my faith, while it comes so natural to him.
I understand that there are dreams and visions that are not from God. I love when falcon said, “When the dream is consistent with what God has revealed to us about Himself in His Word then you have the supporting evidence.” My dream was very simple and could have been brushed off. For me it was powerful and I recorded it right away. I have not given all the details here, just the ones that pertain to this post. So I understand when people say Joseph Smith had different versions for different audiences in regards to the first vision. The big difference though is I never change the details. The dolls never become real people. The scripture in my mind never becomes a face to face encounter with Christ. I also forgot lots of details a year later and when I looked back the paper I had written I was surprised how much I had forgotten. When I look at the different accounts of the first vision, the increase in details and changes in story, it’s just so backwards to what would have really happened.
I hope this isn’t too off topic. My over all point is, the Word of God is powerful. I would love to hear peoples favorite scriptures.
Jaxi,
Keep it coming. Please make a video and put it on YouTube or at least Mormon Coffee. I can’t tell you how encouraging it is to hear your testimony.
To say someone became a Mormon by studying the Bible is like saying someone became a Methodist by studying the BofM!
Then I suppose we’d have to ask, “What version of the BofM?”. Because the BofM, before it was altered and changed to suit JS continuous revelation, had some strong support for Christian doctrines.
We could go as far as to say that there isn’t any Mormonism in the BofM regardless of the version someone wants to choose. If a person really wants to understand Mormonism they have to take a trip through the Doctrine & Covenants, the Journal of Discourses and just about any of the writings of LDS leaders.
But here’s where the problem comes in. It comes in attempts to separate out what is doctrine and what is opinion. Opinion is what ever sounds goofy today. People at the time believed it, but as generations passed, well, it got goofy. Then when we mix in all of the different sects of Mormonism with their many prophets, various revelations and doctrines, well it’s really a mess.
Adam-god is a favorite and it seems that Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith are treasure troves of junk doctrine. Even poor Bruce McConkie, whose “Mormon Doctrine” tome was a guide post for Mormons is not even published any more. Poor Bruce has joined all the other former leaders in his place under the LDS bus.
So I think that’s why we get so many Mormon freelancers, many of whom show-up on this blog. These folks just sort of find a comfort zone to live in and put everything that is contrary and unacceptable on the Mormon shelf until it collapses.
I came to Christ as the result of the Holy Spirit’s leading. God’s Word verified what the Spirit testified to regarding who Jesus is and what He did for me. I stand on God’s Word and the testimony of the Holy Spirit. I know Jesus is the Christ and that there is no other way to the Father except through faith in Him. I don’t deserve it. I didn’t earn it. It came on the basis of faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross.
Hello Jaxi and everyone else.
In the topic as with Jaxi, were asked to share our favorite Scripture.
Mine is Romans 2:11. Some versions word it as, (God does not show favoritism). This is what I call my, Life verse, and I even have it tattooed on my arm.
I grew up an atheist, and I was a “troubled” Child. I needed to see a shrink when I was 5 for anger issues. Also I wont share all the details, But briefly I hated the world, anti-social and tried to kill a couple of people in my life. I had a restraining order put on me from a pastor of a church years ago and was kicked out of 2 high schools had the police, state troopers and sheriff visiting my house pretty much on a weekly basis. I grew up in Michigan, Born and raised and then later moved to Maine.
I was kicked out of my house by my dad when I was 16 years old, Lived on the streets of maine for about a year, then Hitchhicked to Texas, stayed their for 3 months living on the streets. I then moved back to maine, and then moved to Chicago, Lived in a place called, JPUSA, It stands for Jesus People USA. It is still around. It was their at the age of 21 I gave my life to Jesus. I heard about Jesus through out much of my life, I fought Him and ignored Him. I even threatened Christians who tried sharing with me.
After being in Chicago I gave my Life to Jesus, but was still angry and was kicked out after 6 months from JPUSA, So I lived on the streets of Chicago for 6 months. I meet my wife at JPUSA and even though I was an angry person and was kicked out we started dating. We got married in 94 and are still married to this day, Sharon, Bill and falcon have meet me and my wife and kids. Well Bill Might not have meet my kids, but me and my wife.
Now this story is so condensed, that if I wrote a book 500 pages long on my life, then I only gave you 1-2 pages of the 500. Now onto my verse. I have seen Christians in life and on TV who act like they are something special, Their Like, well I’m the pastor, Or I wear a suit and tie, or they are snobs for lack of a better term. They have this attidue like they are Gods gift to the world, Or people look up to them like, Hey, It’s Billy Graham, Or hey thats, So and So big name Christian.
But people look at me, or Christians Like me as, Who are you? Your a nobody, You wont wear a suit and Tie, or you have Tattoo’s, Or a big bushy beard, or you fill in the blanks, They look down on us types since were not like them. So My verse tells me, God does not show favoritism, I dont care what people think, I know God loves me, Died for me and has called me to preach the Gospel to a lost and dying world. I have been able to share Jesus with people Living on the streets that the “stuffy” Suit types could never do. I lived on the streets, walked with the people and lived among them. These Stuff suit types only come to the streets to hand out money or make them feel good for saying I helped these poor souls. At least that is how they are perceived.
As I said also, I did submission style Fighting, and I could and did share with Fighters in the Gym, I would even drive 30 miles out of my way to give one fighter a ride home at night after working out in the Gym, this way he did not need to take the bus, as a result, I was able to share Jesus with him.
Now If someone is wondering? What does Rick Look like? You can click on my name you can see me, well sort of. It is a picture of me wearing my chefs uniform and you will only see my face. If you have any questions, please ask, I’m not afraid to talk, I just cannot sit here all day and tie up hours of posting about me.
Jaxi, thanks for sharing your personal story .
sorry guys, all I can say is that the bible and the mormon church are congruent for many many people. Not you apparently, but for many of us. You have a different opinion, and that is fine. What I see a lot of, like in the particulars of the Trinity for example, is that nicene creed based religions refuse to aknowledge their issue. They say that they dont interpret the bible, it is clear on all these subjects, and yet we have Jesus praying to God (and somehow its clear he’s praying to himself) and we have steven seeing God and Jesus seprately (but its clear they are the same person). No, its not clear, and it takes a lot of stretching the imagination to make it work for you.
The same people that brought you the Trinity also brought you many other bible contradictions
Bishops dont marry (1 Timothy 3:2-5, 1 Timothy 4:1-3)
Calling Preists Father (Matthew 23:9)
Peter wasnt married (somehow he had a mother in law though! Mark 1:30)
Only the priests can read and interpret the bible (wow. just wow.)
there are of course many of these contradictions, but the Trinity is and always was foremost for me because it is the basis of your belief in God and who he is.
Someone explain these versus then, so that I might be more enlightened with your views.
John 17:3. This is life eternal, that they might know THEE, THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
Mark 13:32. But of that day and hour knoweth no man; no, not the angels which are in heaven; NEITHER THE SON; but the Father.
I Timothy 2:5. There is one God and, one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
I Corinthians 8:6. But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things and we in Him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him.
Ephesians 4:5-6. ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism, ONE GOD AND FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (why does he separate God and Lord?)
consider the savior’s words
“I came not to do mine own will.”
“I can of myself do nothing.”
“The Son can do nothing of himself.”
“The Father that is in me, he doeth the works.”
He calls himself, “he whom the Father hath sanctified and sent.”
He says, “I am come in my Father’s name.”
And after his resurrection he says, “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.”
Consider the apostles words:
“Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God, by signs and wonders which God did by him.”
“Appointed to be a Prince and Saviour.”
“at the right hand of God exalted.”
“made both Lord and Christ.” (this sounds pretty against the Trinity)
Because of his obedience unto death, “God hath highly exalted him and given him a name above every name.”
In the end he shall “deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father, that God may be all in all.”
How come the catholic church adds to the scriptures 1 John 5:7? This is pretty damming. We all know the christian view that none should take away or add to the bible, so why do we find its addition after the old manuscripts of the Greek New Testament that do not contain it. It is found only in the Latin. It was removed in the 1500’s and then quickly added back.
Now, can you really ask why I feel that the bible led me away from any Nicene Creed doctrine based view?
As a Mormon, I didn’t concern myself with the Bible. I was taught that it wasn’t translated correctly so I didn’t bother. After all, how would I know which parts were translated wrong? Better to stick with the BoM and let the leaders tell me what the Bible says. It’s funny to me now because I bought a Bible with no affiliation to the LDS church and read it all by myself! I asked God to reveal Himself to me and He did. It wasn’t hard. The Trinity makes more sense through the Biblical lens than millions or billions of gods and hey, you can become one too! Tell me where that is written in the Bible! It’s not even written in the BoM.
This site is for all Mormons and with all of the different sects, Mormon teachings are all over the place. The original sect, The Community of Christ, believe in the Trinity because the Bible and the BoM both teach it. I personally believe this is the original sect of Mormonism because this is where Joseph Smith’s family stayed. They didn’t follow Brigham West after the big power grab.
Kate, i am going to try to make another post, but i think i have 6 already, so we will see. Nowhere in the bible is the Trinity taught and it is refuted by the bible itself. I am sorry you did not care about the bible as a mormon. I am a mormon and I love it.
You say that you read the bible and the Trinity makes more sense than becoming Gods. Well, then will you please help me understand how you come to the conclusion of the Trinity from the bible. If you read the bible, and no one has ever told you anything about the trinity, and you read the verses i posted above, what conclusion do you come to?
Where does the bible teach we will become gods? Its pretty direct, much more direct than the missing idea of the Trinity.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together (Romans 8:16-17
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ‘? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (John 10:34-36)
I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High…” (Psalm 82:6)
His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-4)
The children of people are people, the children of cows are cows. What are the children of God?
for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. (Acts 17:28-30)
He seeks godly offspring. (Malachi 2:14-15)
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches (Romans 11:16)
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name (John 1:12)
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God (1 John 3:1-2)
fightinglee,
We are not the literal offspring of God. Not all are called as God’s children either, the scriptures that you sited make perfect sense in light of this scripture Galations 3:26-27. Now read the scriptures you posted again in light of this. See, simple. We have the right to become children of God if we receive Him and believe in His name as John 1:12 rightfully says.
John 1:1-3
John 1:14
This is all the confirmation I really need about the Trinity.
Tell me how two denominations of Mormonism have differing views of God.
The Community of Christ (Found on their official website)
God
“We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship. ”
Let’s look at LDS scripture:
Alma 11:38-39
3 Nephi 11:27
2 Nephi 31-21
Just to name a few. So the Community of Christ believes these scriptures and also what God has revealed about himself in the Bible, what do you believe? The King Follett Discourse…. Is that even scripture?
fightinglee,
I don’t intend to make such long posts but you wrote so much that I felt needed a response. Also, I have to mention my response comes from an Orthodox perspective and there may be different opinions on what I bring up.
You obviously have a very unclear understanding of the Trinity. The reason you can’t find the Trinity in scripture is because you don’t know what the Trinity is. The Trinity is a term the the early church leaders came up with to describe our understanding of the nature of God. The very nature that is expressed in scriptures. I understand your feelings because I had the same one’s when I was a Mormon. I told myself I would never believe in the Trinity because the Bible taught differently. It wasn’t the Trinity that was wrong. It was my understanding of it that was. I laughed at one of my first classes in a different church because they used Christ’s baptism as a way to teach me the Trinity. I laughed because Mormonism used that very same story to teach me how wrong the Trinity was.
I don’t know if this will help but this is something I typed to my sister in law to help her understand the teaching of the Trinity. To quote myself…
“The tricky part is understanding how that all works. How are they (with the Holy Ghost) one God? They are definitely not the same person, like you said. Scripturally that makes no sense.
The biggest and most key difference from the LDS Church is that the Godhead have always existed together for all eternity, having separate personnas, but with more than purpose that unites them, a common essence. No one can really describe this essence because that is the part of the Trinity that is beyond comprehension. We know who God is and what He is not but we don’t have this full understanding on how He works or how He is Who He is. We can feel what comes from His essence and that is love, and faith, hope, all the gifts of the spirit, and more. But we cannot fully grasp God. Which to me is a good thing, because if God could be fully defined by our human intelligence so easily than I’m not sure He would be as great as He could be.
So here are some things that might help.
C.S. Lewis does an excellent job describing the Trinity. I recommend listening to him.
(There is slight difference between how Orthodox and Roman Catholics view the Holy Spirit that I removed as this comment is really long)
This is an outline of Orthodoxy Doctrine:
1)Heavenly Father is the source and principle of the Godhead, He begets the Son and breathes forth His Spirit. The Son is the Son of God, and the Spirit is the Spirit of God.
2) Only one God. The multiplicity of persons does not divide the divine unity or create three separate Gods.
3) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are real persons and not just roles that one God plays at different times.
4) Father, Son, Holy Spirit are called con substantial, means same substance or nature.
5) Each person has the entirety of divine nature. Divine nature is one and indivisible. Son and Spirit have fullness and are no less God than God the father, even though they derive their being from Him. They are all whole and complete.
6) They form an unbreakable union of love. God could not be love if he was just one single, isolated individual. Love demands the presence of another. God is perfect unity and oneness and genuine personal diversity. It is said, each person exists in the others because it is impossible to think of one without the others.
7)There was never a time when the Father did not beget the Son and breathe forth His Spirit. That is because time is not applicable to God. God created time. Trinity is eternal, beyond time and space.
Christ is God in the flesh, incarnate. He intercedes on our behalf to bring us to the Father. The Spirit proceeds from the Father, to bring us to the Son. ”
Hopefully this helps you understanding on why the verses John 17:3, Mark 13:32, 1 Ti 2:5. 1 Corinth 8:6. and Ephesians 4: 5-6 are not problems for Christan Doctrine of the Trinity.
Also, in Orthodoxy Bishops have in the past and can be married.
I’m not sure 1 Ti. 4:1-3 helps your case. Mormonism commands abstaining “from foods which God created to be received with Thanksgiving.”
Mathew 23: 9 says not to call anyone on earth your father. It doesn’t say anything about priests. This verse is not an absolute prohibition of the term. Do you call your father father? Father is also used in Lk 16:24, 1 Co 4:15, and Col 3:21.
Mark 1:30 Who says Simon wasn’t married? In Orthodox tradition he was.
All your “gods” verses are also not a problem. In Orthodoxy Christians believe in theosis. Look it up. Just go to Wikipedia Theosis (Eastern Orthodox theology). Mormons use the Orthodoxy teachings on theosis to say, “see I told you early Christians teach this.” However, Orthodox theosis and Mormonism theosis are very different. Mainly that in Orthodoxy, man is still a creation, adopted as God’s sons and daughters through Christ, and comes into union with God but doesn’t become God with a big G to go on and populate their own worlds and raise up their own Christ’s and such.
There are more contradictions within Mormonism itself and to the Bible than with Christianity itself.
fighting,
Here’s your problem. We contend that Mormonism can’t be found in the Bible and in typical Mormon fashion you try and prove the Christianity can’t be found in the Bible.
Now I must ask you, what does that have to do with the fact the Mormonism can’t be found in the Bible?
I must admit that I scanned through your posts rather quickly looking for you to show me your references to support Mormonism in the Bible and I didn’t see them. I’ll go back and read more carefully.
If someone picks up the Bible and they have no religious background, will they come out believing in something more resembling Christianity or Mormonism. I think we both know the answer.
Mormonism is extra-Biblical. That is it comes from sources other than the Bible.
If reading the Bible reinforces your belief in Mormonism, it’s because you’re imposing the thoughts of Mormon leaders on the Bible.
To even begin to belief that the Bible substantiates and proves Mormonism is not only disingenuous but it’s intellectually dishonest.
fighting,
Several months back I suggested that Andy Watson do a series of articles on the Trinity so if it ever came up again, we could refer our Mormon posters to it instead of plowing the same ground again. Here is the link.
http://blog.mrm.org/tag/trinity/
Andy put a lot of time and effort into this and did a thorough review of the theology and history and Biblical foundation of the doctrine of the Trinity.
What I think we learned the first time around is that the Mormons either were intimidated by Andy’s scholarship, they couldn’t stand up to the presentation, or they weren’t really serious. They just wanted to continue repeating the tired old Mormon slogans.
So there you are fighting.
If you want to go on believing that there are millions, perhaps billions of gods in the universe each having a covey of women goddesses with whom they procreate spirit children to populated their worlds, then I guess that’s your option. I think the doctrine of the Trinity is a better option and has a Biblical foundation.
Men becoming gods by performing Free Masonry rituals and rites can’t be sourced Biblicaly. So in order to go down that trail you have to put your trust in a series of men who claimed to be prophets but whose teachings rarely last a generation or two.
There is no Biblical foundation for the Mormon sect you follow.
Say Jaxi,
My buddy Andy Watson has sort of been into the Eastern Orthodox sect(s) lately and he was telling me about a podcast he had found on “Ancient Faith Radio” I believe it was.
Anyway the guests were to former Mormons who are now Eastern Orthodox and I thought of you. He said the man had held a pretty high office in his ward/stake and is a medical doctor. Andy said this is the best expose of Mormonism he has ever heard. That’s saying something because Andy has crawled all over every source you can think of dealing with Mormonism. He told me he’s going to track it down for me but I was wondering if you’ve ever heard of it?
Thank you for being here. You and Kate are doing yeoman’s (yeowomens (?)) work. I really appreciate the witness and testimony you former Mormons offer. Your posts are not too long. Like Goldy Locks, they are just right!
Is that how you spell Goldy Locks?
Falcon,
Thank you. I have enjoyed reading many of your comments when I was a silent bystander for some time on this sight. You are very insightful, as are many of the other posters.
I do love ancient faith radio. I listen to it mainly for the music and haven’t really got into the podcasts yet. I think I found the podcast your friend had found.
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday/mormonism_and_orthodox_christianity
I haven’t listened to it yet but I am very excited. I love listening to peoples stories of how they found Christianity post Mormonism. I have never heard any stories of Mormons journeying specifically to Orthodoxy, so thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Jaxi,
I found it also and am listening to as I post here. I think you’d like it. Andy was giving me Eastern Orthodox 101 today. He’s visited some at the Greek Orthodox church in Las Vegas. I grew-up Roman Catholic and don’t know a lot about the Eastern Church. Some, but not much.
Andy digs it. There are some things with Greek Orthodox that he has trouble getting past but he loves the piety and seriousness of the Church.
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday/mormonism_and_orthodox_christianity
Jaxi,
thank you for the long post. I appreciate your response and your explanation. So, I am going to be out of town for a few days, but I want to ask several questions so that I understand your view more exactly. I have had different christians explain the trinity in different ways, and I have had one denomination teach me something different than another, so let me see if I understand your view correctly so that we can continue this discussion without misunderstanding.
I think that the thing I find strange, is that mormons do not claim that the bible contains all of God’s word, or that it is complete, in that the bible was ammassed and collected later and then put together. Not only that, but because of proven changes to it after the writers. We know that the last chapter of Mark was added to. We know that 1 John 5:7 was put in by Trinitarian backers (which by the way, i thought it was a big no no to add or take away from God’s word).
So from the christian perspective, since prophets have been done away with, and there is no new scripture, the bible should contain all the truth. If the trinity is true, we should conclude its existence from the bible, and not from man. Are we in agreement so far? If not, feel free to explain how you really see it. I am just going off my time when i was not in the church and also based on what christians still tell me, but i will not lump every christian together. You may have a different point of view.
It sounds like what you support is the anthanasian creed, but maybe not entirely. Is this correct? If not, i would appreciate a link to some official statement of your Trinitarian view. Thank you. This always seems tricky to me, because i dont know that i can always find two Christians that completely agree.
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
You said that God begets the son. So has he created the son?
You said they are three persons with one purpose, ONE in unity, correct? But you believe in THREE distinct persons?
You said, “3) Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are real persons and not just roles that one God plays at different times.” (not many Christians wholly accept this by the way. If they do, they dont know it. I have heard a minister condemn this because it is polytheistic and say, no the three persons are one person. Your view would be scolded by some differing opinions, Jaxi, just as mormons are. The mormon view is the same as yours, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in complete purpose, as are all who might attain godliness. So by the same token, can mormons say that they are NOT polytheistic? You want it both ways, to believe in three pesrons, but still make it fit with one God. well, then, by the same argument, anyone can be monotheistic if they use your requirement and definition)
So that i can undertsand the basis for these views that you present, and since the bible contains all the truth, can you please help me find the requirements for the Trinity in the bible?
Falcon, (I will try to get back to your 4 part discussion on the trinity when i get back. Hopefully you will check back here)
Sorry, my brain going through several ideas at once in my post above. In my second paragraph, what i was trying to say was this:
I find it strange that christians use the idea that not all mormon doctrine can be found in the bible as an attack against mormons. The apostles didnt have all the bible as we have it today. The mormon church never has tried to make the claim that the bible encompasses all the truth, or that we have all the writings from all the holy prophets. Its really pieced together and then underwent some post manuscript changes as well. So it doesnt bother a mormon if all of its doctrines are not found in the bible, hence the need for restoration.
Sorry for the confusion if there was any.
The problem with the Trinity doctrine is that NOBODY truly understands it because it’s man made paradoxical nonsense. In fact as early as the fifth century it was deemed heresy to claim to understand it, and it was to be accepted as the great mystery.
I see Jaxi here doing what most Trintarians do. Try to explain the unexplainable paradox. The breakdown comes when Jaxi say’s
The assertion is the there is only One God.. (A singular being) manifest in three persons. There is trickery in the word play here that has been going on since the dogma was put into creedal form. That word play is the use of the term “Person”.. A “person” by definition has is a unique being. So the Trinity dogma is really trying to say ONE Being is THREE Beings. Which is a logical impossibility. So to obfuscate this the term Person is used .
Bottom line is that it is impossible to reconcile the THREE persons as being separate / Unique / beings with separate will and conscience and have them be ONE being of singular will and conscience.
The Trinity Doctrine is man made confusion promulgated to pacify the preexistant dogma of strict of Monotheism in light of the obvious plurality of deity manifest in the NT by Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The LDS doctrine of the Godhead in more Biblically congruent and actually does a better job of reconciling the apparent problem.
fightinglee,
I appreciate you asking and trying to understand what I am saying. I again suggest reading C.S. Lewis “Mere Christianity.” He gives one of the best explanations of the Trinity that I have read. This is a link that provides a lot of information on the history and orthodox perspective.
http://www.jmm.org.au/articles/13796.htm
Did you look at falcon’s link to information on the Trinity?
Yes, Orthodoxy is a Creedal Faith. Orthodox leaders are the one’s that put the Creeds together.
The Son is not a created being. Again, C.S. Lewis gives the best explanation I have read on why the Son is not a created being. I am a believer in the Trinity largely because of the writings of C.S. Lewis.
Yes, within Christianity the Trinity is viewed differently between denominations. I’m not sure the differences are as big as you are suggesting. It sounds like you are talking about the churches that teach “oneness” which is not Trinitarian.
Yes, I understand what you are saying in that it sounds like Mormonism but that I just keep insisting that they are one. The difference is the belief that there is more than purpose that unites them and that God is eternal and has always been God.
Mormonism cannot claim that the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit were eternally God. In Mormonism I have not heard a good answer to how Christ and the Holy Spirit are even God. By Mormon Doctrine, you have to be married and have an exalted body to be a God. How can Christ be God in the Old Testament without either. How can Holy Ghost be God at all? When you get right down to it, even scientifically, something has to be eternal. Science assumes matter is eternal. Mormonism says matter and intelligence are eternal. Christianity says God is eternal. Mormonism does not believe in an eternal God. When you go back far enough you come to a time when there was no God. Some how an intelligence, all by itself, was able to attain godhood through marriage and by obtaining, all by itself, an exalted body. Christianity states, there has always been God. There has never been a time without God, because he exists in and outside of time. He created time.
Oceancoast stated, “The LDS doctrine of the Godhead in more Biblically congruent and actually does a better job of reconciling the apparent problem.” This is not true using the Bible (and even the Book of Mormon really). Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion that has ever exists. It has an infinite number of Gods. Bible is not polytheistic. Mormonism also does not have an eternal God. LDS Heavenly Father was not always God. He was once a man. Bible speaks of God being eternal. Also LDS God is not sovereign. He is subject to laws and limited by matter.
You stated all truth is not in the Bible. Orthodoxy to some extent would agree to this. There was a Church (organized worshiping body of believers) before there was a Bible. Orthodoxy states that the Bible was one of the great blessings to the Church and that there was also Tradition being passed on that was not included in the Bible. The Tradition however, does not change the nature of God and does not change the way to salvation.
Orthodoxy has always claimed to be the original, historic Church long before the existence of Mormonism. This is a problem for Mormons. Orthodoxy can demonstrate preservation of tradition and apostolic succession. No need for a “Restoration” if the Church existed all along. You have to show apostasy. Mormons can’t pin point it. Either apostasy occurred because of sin and teaching false doctrine or the apostles took the Church off the earth on purpose or by accident, making Christ a liar in both cases. If the former happened, then the LDS Church is in trouble because their leaders have sinned and have taught false doctrine (Adam God, Blood atonement, etc). If this is the case Mormons should join the Mormon Fundamentalists, they are preserving the original Mormon Church better. If the latter, then the Apostles were either not very smart or as my past Stake President said, “Christ secretly told them to take the Church off the earth” only a few decades after he established it. I hope I don’t have to explain why that is nonsensical.
I have to admit that I don’t know anything about the 1 John 5:7 verse. I will have to look into it. However, my response to “big no no to add to God’s word.” This cannot be an argument made by a Mormon. Compare Book of Commandments to Doctrine and Covenants. We are not talking about a word here or there or grammatical error. We are talking about entire sections changed and added to.
Jaxi,
You said..
The answer to your querry is “Divine investiture”. Basically the Father GIVES divine authority to the Son and the Holy Spirit.
IMO, is how they can be completely unified in purpose, yet still distinct and separate. The Godhead operates much like the Board of a Corporation. (feeble analogy i know) but as the owner of the corp/board gives authority to the CEO to run the affairs.. All decisions made by the CEO are technically as tho they were made by the owner/board of the corp by the investiture of the agency given to the office of CEO. So the will of the CEO becomes the will of the Corp and vice versa.
Likewise, the Will of the Son is the Will of the Father by the agency granted by divine investiture.
Oceancoast
I’ve given up trying to explain a lot of Christian doctrine to Mormons for a very simple reason reason, they don’t want to understand & their confirmation bias makes it an almost impossible task anyway. So, what I’ll do this time is to type part of a question I’ve asked of fightinglee two or three times & which he has so far ignored.
“Do Christians simply believe a doctrine because they’re told it is so? Hardly, true Christians believe the doctrine because they know & understand who Christ is, non-Christians don’t. Mormons don’t even understand who God is & until you do how can you, or any non-Christian understand or accept the Trinity?
AS Jaxi mentioned above, Christians are not polytheistic, that “honour” belongs to members of the LDS Corporation. Something you dont seem to grasp is that we’re not even discussing the same God so further argument is pointless.
oceancoast,
Please let me quote from a book I am reading, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky.
This quote is in response to your comment, ” That word play is the use of the term “Person”.. A “person” by definition has is a unique being. So the Trinity dogma is really trying to say ONE Being is THREE Beings. Which is a logical impossibility. So to obfuscate this the term Person is used.”
“Our nature is united with Christ in the Church which is His Body, and this union is fulfilled in the sacramental life, but it is necessary that every person of this one nature should become conformed to Christ; it is necessary that these human hypostases also should become “two natured,” should unite themselves a created nature with the fullness of uncreated grace, with the divinity, adapted to each member of the body of Christ, which the Holy Spirit confers. For the Church is not only one nature in the hypostasis in the grace of Christ: it consists also of multiple hypostasis in the grace of the Holy Spirit.
This multiplicity, however, cannot be realized save in unity. The Chrstian life- the life in Christ- is a way which leads from multiplicity of corruption (that of individuals which divide up humanity), towards the unity of the one pure nature in which there is disclosed a new multiplicity: that of persons united to God in the Holy Spirit. That which was divided in nature portioned out among the many individuals, must be united in a single foundation in Christ, to be divided in the persons of the saints who have assimilated the diefying flames of the Holy Spirit.
We are not to seek after what is personal, for the perfection of each person in fulfilled in total abandonment and in the reunification of self. Every person who seeks his own self-assertion comes in the end only to the disintegration of his nature; to a particular and individual existence accomplishing a work which is contrary to that of Christ: ‘He that gathereth not with me, scattereth” Now it is necessary to scatter with Christ, to abandon one’s own nature which is in reality the common nature), in order to gather, to acquire the grace which must be appropriated to each person and become his own… Our nature is another’s: Christ has secured it by His most precious blood; uncreated grace in our own- it has been conferred upon us by the Holy Spirit. This is the unfathomable mystery of the Church, the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit; one in Christ, multiple through Spirit, a single human nature in the hypostasis of Christ,many human hypostases in the grace of the Holy Spirit. Yet, one Church because a single body: single in nature united with God in the person of Christ; for personal union, the perfect union with God in our persons, will be fulfilled only in the age to come.”
One must give up the individual to see the person, which contains the image of God. Individual and person are different. When we reach heaven we will be our own persons but will be one body in perfect union with Christ.
Oceancoast,
All my life as a Mormon I never heard the term “Divine investiture.” Please tell me the source of that term.
Divine authority and being God seem like very different things to me. So Christ had divine authority in the Bible but is God after the resurrection? Holy Ghost has divine authority now but will later be God. What is the difference between a god with divine authority and one who is an exalted God? I’m pretty sure a body is a key requirement for exaltation in LDS theology. It seems like you are saying there are not only multiple gods but differing levels of gods, nonexalted gods and exalted gods?
oceancoast,
I will suggest to you what I suggested to fightinglee, read the series of articles that Andy Watson did on the Doctrine of the Trinity.
That was specifically put on this blog so we could refer Mormons to it and not have to continually plow the same ground. Here’s the link.
http://blog.mrm.org/tag/trinity/
What I’ve found is that Mormons are really up against it when it comes to their plural gods and men becoming gods, so it’s easier for them to go after the Doctrine of the Trinity rather than have to defend what is indefensible.
Why in the world would someone want to defend a father god with his multiple wives procreating spirit children into eternity. Or why would they want to talk about their god having sex with Mary? They wouldn’t so it’s a way of staying off of defense and going on offense.
Old tactic but it’s continually hauled out.
Oceancoast,
Let me ask you a question?
Why is it LDS claim the Trinity cannot be real since we dont see it in the Bible, or it cannot be real since No Apostle, Disciple or Even Jesus said, I am a trinity and define it as 3 in one.
Yet thats ok to say, see this is evidence, Yet we cannot find 99 percent of Mormon teachings in the Bible and thats ok. To make matter even worse, JS said, a man will get nearer to God by abiding by the precepts of the BoM, AND the BoM is the most correct book upon the earth.
Yet again, 99 percent of Mormon beliefs and doctrine is not and cannot be found in the BoM.
Yet despite this, it is ok to say the trinity is false, and Mormonism is true, even though I use your logic and way of thinking. Can you explain this?
I listened to the new Pope when he was introduced and understood that I earned a plenary indulgence for hearing the blessing over the radio as I was driving along. I’m ashamed to say that I had to think real hard about what a plenary indulgence is; this despite my Catholic School training.
I figured it had to do with relieving a person from the punishment that remained even after sins have been forgiven. I was pretty close.
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints”.
Then I learned, and I kind of figured it was the case, that:
“To gain indulgences, whether plenary or partial, it is necessary that the faithful be in the state of grace at least at the time the indulgenced work is completed. [i.e. one must be a Catholic, not excommunicated or in schism.]”
Well I’m way lapsed!
There’s more to it, but I figured that since I’m in schism there really wasn’t any point of going any further.
There is a certain amount of comfort in religion, especially religion that has a lot of stuff that you can do. However to be completely honest, I really enjoy being a person of simple faith and the Word.
Jesus took my place on the cross for a reason. I don’t think He was all that interested in having people take on the yoke of religion once He had completed or satisfied the requirement of the Law.
Isn’t Jesus awesome!
I was at the Gym a few days back and I saw a kid wearing a T-shirt that said (Earned, Not Given, Nike)
I thought and then told my wife, Earned, Not Given, that sums up Mormon salvation verses Christian salvation.
See Christians would say, Given, Not Earned. I wonder, Does Nike, or is Nike Owned by Mormons?
It’s funny, if you ever seen the head phone gear called(Skull Candy) I personally Like the name, But they are owned and run by Mormons out of Utah. If the Mormons ask, How do you know, well Let me tell you. I was listing to Minnesota Public Raido and they Interviewed the founder of Skull Candy, and unless he was fibbin he claimed to be a Utah based Mormon.
rick,
Here’s the problem. Mormons are holding a real bad hand of cards so all they can do is bluff. But they have a “tell”. The “tell” is that they try to justify Mormonism, which you rightly point out can’t be found any where, by attacking Christian doctrine.
I’ve found that part of this has to do with muddying up the water and just confusing the issue. Thus we have to to the “all go round the mulberry bush” every once in a while when a new Mormon shows up.
That’s why I asked Andy and Sharon to once and for all put up a series of articles on the Trinity. The problem is that Mormons don’t really want to take the time to study the history and theology behind the doctrine of the nature of God.
The doctrine is in the Bible if someone wants to bother to actually read the text.
The early believers were Jews. Jews are monotheists. John says that Jesus is eternal and He’s God. So the Church Fathers needed to articulate the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in order to confront the heretics.
I would tell our Mormon friends to take a real good look at the nature of Jesus and why it’s necessary for Him to be God and not “a” god.
Hay, how about we just tell Mormons that its been “revealed” to us. That should end the discussion since they’re more interested in revelation than the Word of God.
Old man
Confronted with the inconvenient truth about the Trinity dogma.. you retreat and say you give up on trying to explain it.. Naturally, trying to explain or defend the unexplainable and indefensible dogma can get tiring. This is no doubt in part why its proponents needed to have the edict of Thessalonica .. Essentially making it treason against Emperor and the state of Rome to disagree with the dogma. If the doctrine wasn’t winning over the hearts and minds on its own merits, then force on the illiterate populace by fear of death. This is the prejudice has been grandfathered into the Traditional Christian MO for centuries and many were put to death for not believing.. Today, we have laws against such executions, but it doesn’t stop the un-Christ like behavior of those so-called Christians who insist that unless you agree with the Trinity dogma you can’t be considered Christian.. Such behavior could not be further from the truth or further removed from what Christ taught.
Your argument that “Mormons don’t even understand who God is & until you do how can you, or any non-Christian understand or accept the Trinity?” is a self serving circular argument. For you are simply saying unless Mormons agree with You and your beliefs regarding the Trinity, they can’t understand the Trinity.. This is the same circular reasoning I have heard before..Where some critics claim they have been “Regenerated”, and the “Unregenerate” can never understand, and until they (Mormons) are regenerated.. But when asked how can they objectively show that they have been regenerated and Mormons haven’t, the argument goes circular..As they claim to be regenerated would mean you would agree with them.. And essentially that’s the game you’re playing here OldMan.
The bottom line here is that unlike many “Revealed” truths that have an authoritative preamble ”Thus saith the LORD..” the Trinity doctrine has no such affirmation. Thus the Trinity doctrine is nothing but a man made paradoxical dogma, not Revealed truth.
Jaxi,
That you haven’t heard the term either speaks volumes of your understanding of LDS beliefs.. That you speak of a past life as a Mormon, I can only assume you never went to church or read any church literature. The term has been used to describe the unity in the LDS Godhead for over a century.
“The First Presidency, in an excellent explanation of this principle, called this authority of Christ to speak for the Father in the first person “Divine Investiture of Authority.” (See James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Appendix 2, p. 470.)
It really depends on how you use the term “God”. The term has different meaning depending on context and it appears your confusing exaltation with that concept of God. Quite frequently in the Biblical text we see the phrase “the angel of the Lord”.. In fact it was this “angel of the Lord “ that spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush”
Now do you believe God spoke to Moses or was it an angel? If it was an angel and not God himself, would you consider that angel carried the full weight and authority of God as if he was God when he spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Would there be any practical difference between God and the angel in that instance?
Falcon,
I looked at the link about the Trinity.. It doesn’t address the problem I raised at all.. It’s represents nothing more than the repeat of the same ole same ole attempt to describe the indescribable. One must ask why does it require so much to explain the Trinity concept. Could it be that the doctrine runs counter to common sense, revealed truth and is confusing? It is written God is not the author of confusion, yet the Trinity dogma is confusing from the get go.. I believe the Trinity dogma’s confusing nature is a testament to its falseness.
RickB
LDS don’t claim the Trinity can’t be real because it’s not found in the Bible.. It’s not real because it’s logically incoherent. LDS don’t have qualms about every doctrine needing to be spelled out in scripture because LDS don’t believe scripture Bible / BoM or other is the complete, inerrant and final word.. As many Biblical In-errantists do.
Falcon,
You error on thinking any LDS discussion on the Trinity is because LDS have as you believe a “real bad hand of cards “. Nothing could be further from the truth. And although I can’t vouch for others, it appears to me that Most Non-LDS Evangelists don’t truly understand the history of the Trinity Doctrine at all.. They just regurgitate the ole party polemics on the Trinity without seriously asking themselves the tough questions. Those that do aren’t likely to argue with LDS too much.
Oceancoast
Kindly show me where I said
“For you are simply saying unless Mormons agree with You and your beliefs regarding the Trinity, they can’t understand the Trinity. This is the same circular reasoning I have heard before”
That my friend is a total distortion of what I said, May I respectfully suggest you go back to my post & read it again. On second thoughts you wont so I’ll tell you my actual words.
“true Christians believe the doctrine because they know & understand who Christ is, non-Christians don’t. Mormons don’t even understand who God is & until you do how can you, or any non-Christian understand or accept the Trinity?”
Clearly you don’t understand English too well, I really cant see where I said that you had to agree with my views on the trinity before you can understand it. I said that until you know & understand who Christ is you wont understand the trinity. I find your accusation of “circular reasoning” to be laughable, there is nothing circular in what I said above. I would have thought you of all people would know that, seeing as members of the LDS are the acknowledged experts in that particular field.
Now perhaps you will respond the rest of my post which you conveniently ignore.
“AS Jaxi mentioned above, Christians are not polytheistic, that “honour” belongs to members of the LDS Corporation. Something you don’t seem to grasp is that we’re not even discussing the same God so further argument is pointless.”
Finally………
After telling Falcon that the doctrine is confusing & then taking a verse from the Bible out of context (normal Mormon apologetics) you say this to him
“I believe the Trinity dogma’s confusing nature is a testament to its falseness.”
So then, something that you don’t understand must therefore be false, Allow me to remind you of Pauls words in 1 Corinthians 2:14
I guess that brings us nicely back to where I started, Is that also circular reasoning?
OC,
Yea I think you have that tinge of Mormon arrogance going on. You head over to the link I provided and dismiss it out-of-hand, as if you have some truth that hasn’t been considered by the Church. No point-by-point review. It kind of reminds me of when Mormons get hit with the uncomfortable information that proves Mormonism is totally bogus and they reply, “I’ve known that for years and it doesn’t effect my testimony one bit.” No answers. No defense. Just Mormon slogans.
Let’s do this. I’ve never had a Mormon do this on this blog.
Tell us who Jesus is. Straight forward no Mormon fiddle faddle.
Then after you do that, tell us what steps you are taking to become a god.
Old man,
I didn’t quote you literally, I paraphrased what I understood you to be saying in the context of the discussion. And I still hold that it’s true. You now say..
And yet your beliefs in Christ are intricately tied to the Doctrine of the Trinity. You can’t have one without the other, and I presume you view yourself as a “true Christian” so therefore you presume your views on the Christ and the Trinity are the correct ones.. And unless I agree with those views of Christ, I couldn’t understand the Trinity..and as you quote 1 Corinthian 2:14.. Yes the argument become circular . What you fail to recognize that LDS can hold the same sort of position.. Claiming unless you know the true Christ as LDS do you will never understand the LDS doctrine of the Godhead.. That’s why I point out that your putting that argument up is just a smokescreen to discuss the real issues.
Ocean,
You said
Well if this is the position you take, I would disagree with you and here is why. JS said, well he claims he translated the BoM and he said this about the BoM.
So if this is true, then you claim the BoM is not complete and the Final word, who or what is? And after you answer that, can you prove that your prophets would agree with that? Maybe give quotes from them saying what you said.
Now add to that, Since the BoM says, their are only two Churchs, The church of the devil and the true church, and we all know that the LDS is the “true church” and all other churchs are of the devil. So how do you know this is true If you dont believe The BoM is complete or the final word?
Now JS also said this
So if this is true, Then it seems your wrong.
But thats not it, lets add this, Now lets look at what the prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith said. Notice Joseph Smith was the first “prophet” Joseph F Smith was the 10th “prophet/president” of the Church. So as not to confuse with the close names.
Now I would think JS would have known this, But we have two LDS prophets who cannot agree, I think that shows confusion, And God is not the author of Confusion. But lets not end with that, lets add this, Ezra Taft Benson taught. He taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.
So now we have 3 people, all prophets teaching different things. This leads to another question, if D and C is over the book of Mormon, why do the Mormon missionary’s not pass that out? And if the Prophet is over all the 4 standard works, why bother passing them out at all? Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?
So we find lots of confusion in the LDS Church, so please explain, who can we trust and what do you use a evidence to support who we trust and why?
oceancoast,
<"That you haven’t heard the term either speaks volumes of your understanding of LDS beliefs.. That you speak of a past life as a Mormon, I can only assume you never went to church or read any church literature."
lol, ouch. You got me. I never understood LDS beliefs. Don't blame me though. Blame my four years of seminary instructors. All my BYU religion professors. Also blame my stake president because he didn't use that term when I asked him the same question. I was actually a temple recommend holding Primary Presidency counselor when I resigned. I was genuinely asking for the the resource so I could read on it. Thanks for the resource but I could have done without the insult.
<"Now do you believe God spoke to Moses or was it an angel? If it was an angel and not God himself, would you consider that angel carried the full weight and authority of God as if he was God when he spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Would there be any practical difference between God and the angel in that instance?"
God the Word (Jesus Christ) revealed Himself to Moses in the bush. He is called the Angel of the Lord because He is the Angel or Messenger of the Father who reveals the Father's will. He is the Will of the Father. He is the only beghotten God because He is beghotten from the Unbeghotten Father before all time and ages. Isiah called the Son "the Angel of Great Counsel" (Is 9:5)
OK Jaxi,
I’m going to introduce you to a Mormon game in case you haven’t picked up on it yet.
No matter what you present, in volume or in precision, it is never enough.
I, along with other Christian posters, have been down this road with the Mormons before where we write well documented and sourced information. It’s never enough and it is dismissed out-of-hand.
I write this to you in order to reduce your frustration and to tell you that you’re not writing for these TBM types who show up here. They are foils. We write for those Mormons who come here and read, don’t post, but are looking for information that will eventually lead them out of the LDS church.
I’m not trying to pull the old sage routine on you, just letting you know the game. The other game they like is to chase you down some rabbit hole searching for information and when you spend a lot of time and effort on it, they just blow you off.
What we’re dealing with are Mormons whose minds are seared and who are living in darkness. They’ve been living in it so long they think it’s light.
Bless you and your efforts.
falcon,
The game is all yours..
By your own admission you aren’t interested in dialog or discussion, but simply to lead those who are weak in their faith away from it… so who is the real ‘foil”.. who’s mind is ‘seared’ and living in darkness? seems to me from your admission here that’s you.
falcon,
You ask..
My belief … Jesus is son of Mary,he is the Christ the anointed one, son of the Living God, redeemer of mankind,Savior of the world .. He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven.
You other question was a baited and loaded question not worthy of an answer.
Oceancoast,
Falcons question was not baited or loaded. It is a real question. One that I was not afraid to answer when I was a Mormon. It’s Mormon theology that Mormons are reaching for exaltation, which many are doing to try to reach god hood.
And to comment on something you said to me on a previous comment. Yes, I must be confusing exaltaion with godhood. I was always taught you needed exaltation to be in gods presence. Thats why un exalted people couldnt be with Heavenly Father, because they werent worthy enough. I was taught of the exalted people some of them would be gods, only the top of the celestial kingdom. So, yes, I thought exaltaion was a requirment for godhood. I wasnt taught you could bypass it with divine investiture. So, falcons question is, what are you doing to get to the top third of the celestial kingdom, which is a valid question. I have to admit I was overwhelmed once I learned there were divisions in the celestial kingdom as well. I wanted to be in the top of the top, and I was working my butt off to get there.
You blow off this question like its not an important one in Mormonism. My last stake president called me a god in embryo. We talked church for about 5 hours. It came down to him saying basically this is about me deciding if there is authority to do gods work and whether or not I believe I am creation or of the same divinity as god just not as far progressed. I am Orthodox now and would without hesitation discuss the Orthodox theology on theosis. I can tell people how Orthodox believe that they obtain their doctrine on theosis. Why can’t you explain what you are doing to obtain your Mormon version of theosis?
Ocean coast said
“I didn’t quote you literally, I paraphrased what I understood you to be saying in the context of the discussion. And I still hold that it’s true.”
Paraphrasing is normally used as a means of clarifying text but in typical Mormon fashion you do the opposite, you distort in order to invalidate my argument.
“And yet your beliefs in Christ are intricately tied to the Doctrine of the Trinity. You can’t have one without the other, and I presume you view yourself as a “true Christian” so therefore you presume your views on the Christ and the Trinity are the correct ones.”
You should stop presuming! Your argument is based almost in its entirety on assumptions. Those are your words not mine; my beliefs concerning Christ are founded entirely in scripture. If you wish to present a coherent argument then please argue using my actual words rather than what you “assume” I said.
“and as you quote 1 Corinthian 2:14.. Yes the argument become circular”
Don’t you understand sarcasm? I was replying to your accusation of circular reasoning that was made in a previous post. You were very careful to leave out the reason why I quoted from Corinthians so to set the record straight I’ll repeat what was said.
You said “I believe the Trinity dogma’s confusing nature is a testament to its falseness.”
In reply I said.
” So then, something that you don’t understand must therefore be false, Allow me to remind you of Pauls words in 1 Corinthians 2:14
I guess that brings us nicely back to where I started, Is that also circular reasoning?”
I’m sure it’s clear to everyone apart from you why I used that quote & as for accusing me of putting up a smokescreen all I can say is that I’m a complete beginner in that department compared to Mormons who are masters of obfuscation.
If you are a true Mormon you lie when you say
“My belief … Jesus is son of Mary,he is the Christ the anointed one, son of the Living God, redeemer of mankind,Savior of the world .. He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven.”
Here is the real LDS doctrine concerning Jesus
Jesus is the son of Mary his sister, conceived through an incestuous & adulterous relationship with her Father. Through his sacrifice he gave us the opportunity to become gods provided we faithfully follow every rule laid down by the LDS Corporation.
Why was Falcons second question loaded? He asked you “tell us what steps you are taking to become a god.” & that is a valid question in the context of LDS doctrine.
The real reason you won’t answer is because if you do you will show everyone here how far removed your organization is from Christianity.
Jaxi
I completely agree with all that Falcon said concerning the difficulty of debating with LDS apologists. They come in here, not to defend their own beliefs, which are for the most part, indefensible but rather to attack Christian beliefs. They will use any ploy to cloud the issues; even to the extent of using atheist sources yet at the same time will rubbish any scriptural quotes you may provide. Basic foundational belief means nothing to them, it differs from what has been drummed into them by the LDS & is therefore irrelevant. Let me say here & now that your testimony bears greater record to the truth than anything they will ever have to say.
I rarely engage in deep theological discussions & consequently may be accused of presenting “silly arguments,” as one Mormon recently said. I prefer, rightly or wrongly to engage on a more basic level & leave the more advanced theology to those better qualified than I.
I speak bluntly of the things I know & possibly to some I appear to be insulting in tone & scathing of the things they say. I make no apologies for that as I have nothing but contempt for an evil organization founded by an adulterous con man. I happen to care deeply for all those who are ensnared in their web of deception & abuse & consequently all apologists who come in here using distortion & fatuous arguments to defend such a heretical & abusive cult deserve to have the book thrown at them. It’s true that apologists have also been deceived, but, unlike the majority of Mormons who are unaware of the deception, they, like the Pharisees of 2000 years ago, are aware, they have heard the truth, & choose to ignore it.
Hey oldman,
My email address is, [email protected]
Please let me know yours by sending to mine. I want to email something to you, you might like and find useful.
Also keep speaking your mind and dont hold back, I dont and that is needed in these days of everyone going pc and being more worried about hurting someones feelings. I have said before many times after someone crys about me being blunt, show me from the bible where I am supposed to let wolves come in and I am supposed to care about their feelings and sllow them to do what they do, eat the sheep.
Jaxi,
It was indeed a loaded and baited question as it presumes false ideas about LDS beliefs and actions. It’s like the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?”
Now I can’t speak for others but I not nor do I see others in the LDS faith- “taking steps toward being a god”.. in fact LDS doctrine would suggest that any aspiration toward being a god would be the very action that would preclude you from exaltation.. For it is written – thou shall love the Lord with all thy might , mind and strength. Exaltation comes to those who love and obey the Lord.. that precludes prideful aspirations.. The last will be first, the first will be last.
Exaltation is receiving the highest degree of salvation with God.
Not true at all..You need not be exalted to be in the Celestial Kingdom with God.
Those who are exalted are those is the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. But as to whether or not they would be gods, it depends on what you mean by that? I would ask any critic of the LDS doctrine to ask themselves some hard questions..
in the afterlife, what will you be like? be specific .. will you have gender identiy? or will that be taken from you? Will you have a physical body or will you simply be a spirit? What is a spirit, and where IS heaven exactly?
In the afterlife, what will you be doing? If you are like most Christians, they have been indoctrinated to answer “Worshipping and serving God”, to which the following questions I present the following..
What specific worship does God need? What service to you propose you will be doing for the All powerful God? Is there anything God would NEED from you?
If God came to you in the afterlife and asked to do something for him, would you refuse? If God by his infinite wisdom bestowed upon you the power and authority to perform an act of creation, would you refuse it? Or would you use that power to glorify God? If God requested a service of you and bestowed the power to create a world (remember the Christian answer is to serve God), would serve him? And in such a capacity, relative to mortal humans, what would they view you as? A mere angel? A god? what?
These are not trivial questions.. I believe few Christians ever take a moment to ponder them.. It’s easy to say I’ll worship and serve God in the heaven… but few ever ask themselves what that REALLY means
Rick B
I see a lot of LDS critics struggle with this issue, usually ex-mormons and biblical inerrantists who try to hold the LDS leaders and scriptures to the same standard they project on to the Bible. A standard that the Bible doesn’t even claim for itself and can be objectively proven to be a false standard.
I think it’s part of the human condition that some people feel they need an absolute inerrant guide for their life, one that they can objectively see and thus they project attributes of perfection or completeness on leaders or books like the Bible, BoM, etc.
As for your cited quotations from Church literature such as church history etc. most of which is strictly opinions. None of them assert that LDS view scriptures, BoM or otherwise as complete or inerrant. In fact the BoM does just the opposite, Mormon acknowledges that the text is NOT inerrant.
“And if there be faults they be the faults of a man.” Mormon 8:17
There is a big difference between a book being the “Most Correct” and inerrancy. A book can be the “most correct book on earth” and not be inerrant. A book can be a keystone of the religion, as the Book of Mormon is to LDS, and still not be the final word, as no LDS I know feel the BoM is inerrant or the final word. That idea seems to only live in the minds of critics and detractors of the faith.. More or less a straw man idea that they prop up to knock down to sooth their own proclivities.
As for the alleged confusion you speak of, that too is also something the detractors invent… perhaps you’re one of those who need the ONE object or guide you can call perfect.. but no such thing exists, in or out of the church.
As for who/what is the final word? In my opinion that would be God.
IMO for any individual, the revelations you receive for yourself are the final word for you. But that’s for you and you alone, not necessarily for anyone else. God knows your heart and will in the end judge accordingly.
OLD MAN,
I may have made a assumption, I assumed based upon your defense of the Trinity dogma, you believed in that doctrine. Perhaps I was wrong, if so.. My bad.
Now as for your statement ..
I think this speak volumes.. First of all you claim I’m lying when I answer the question asked of me.. and then proceed to give your twisted and distorted idea of what LDS believe.. That you call me a liar is one thing, but your twisted ideas of LDS beliefs basically demonstrates the reason why you ‘give up’ talking to LDS.. It appears you have NO clue as to what LDS really believe and therefore when you are confronted by LDS who do know their faith, you run away, call them liars etc.