The LDS Church has issued a Q&A regarding China:
Can my friends be taught and baptized in China?
Not at present. Please contact the Church’s CAU Director for guidelines and further information.Are there any activities that I should pay attention to avoid?
Please do not distribute any Church literature or other religious materials; please do not seek to attend Church meetings with foreign Church members…
This is consistent with earlier sentiments I have heard expressed by Mormons: That the LDS Church “respects the law” so much that it won’t preach its message where it is illegal to do so.
But what does Jesus say?
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 18:18-20)
And what did Peter say?
“And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5:27-32)
This Church statement isn’t really accurate. My husband served a mission in Asia in an area that it was illegal to do so. What the Church does is send missionaries in on tourists visas and have them say they are visiting friends. They do service and teach English classes but you can bet they were still teaching discussions and handing out the BofM. Two missionaries did get put in jail there for knocking on a police officers door. They couldn’t send people into Pakastan so they would send in missionary members that could get in there. The Church may sound like they are obeying the law but they are finding ways around it.
Sorry, I should of checked with my husband before I typed the last post. They do not send in missionaries with tourist visas to China. But they do try to teach as many Chinese Nationalists as they can and they go back to live in China. Kind of how I was describing Pakistan. From what he was saying, it sounded like the Chinese members are encouraged not to openly practice. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t sharing things with friends. My husband wasn’t in China but in the surrounding areas. They were areas that proselyting was illegal but many missionaries did it any way. I’m not sure LDS missionary zeal can really be criticized. As much as I believe it is a false religion, they do put most Christian faiths to shame in that area. I think there are things that can be learned from the LDS in regards to missionary work. What bothers me about LDS missionaries is that they don’t teach the deeper doctrine to their converts before baptizing them. They present a very Christian looking gospel. Have you seen the show the District on BYUtv? The peer pressure and hurry to the baptismal font on investigators is upsetting to me. They baptize many people before they even know what they are signing on for. I think this is one of the reasons LDS convert retention is so low.
Jaxi
“I’m not sure LDS missionary zeal can really be criticized. As much as I believe it is a false religion, they do put most Christian faiths to shame in that area”
I agree wholeheartedly with all of your post & especially in respect of the above but I would like to make a comment concerning missionaries. You may think I’m splitting hairs but I see the work of a missionary as spreading the Gospel of Christ. I prefer to call LDS “missionaries” salesmen as it more accurately reflects what they do. True missionaries don’t tell people what Church to go to, LDS missionaries are pretty clear on which organization they want you to belong to.
“They baptize many people before they even know what they are signing on for.”
Basically it’s a numbers game, The LDS Corporation rakes in billions through the unpaid efforts of their sales force & they probably think along these lines, ‘so we lose a few members, so what, we’ve had a lot of money from them & there’s always another gullible soul to take their place’.
Jaxi,
“I’m not sure LDS missionary zeal can really be criticized. As much as I believe it is a false religion, they do put most Christian faiths to shame in that area”
I have to disagree with you here. Research Christian missions. I will use Joyce Meyers as a comparison but there are many, many more Christian missions going on at any given time. Joyce Meyers goes into other countries and builds whole communities (check out her missions to India) she and her missionaries have built homes for hundreds of destitute women and their children, and while they do so they feed them. She does humanitarian missions all over the world and she and the missionaries that go with her have helped countless men, women and children in many countries. The difference between Christian missionaries and LDS missionaries is that Christians are actually helping and feeding the poor, bringing people to Christ from the pure love of Christ that flows through them. LDS missionaries have one goal and that is to bring people to the LDS corporation. There is a big difference. There are about 56,000 LDS missionaries in the world but check out how many Christian missionaries there are.
From Wiki:
“In the unevangelized world, there are 20,500 full-time Christian workers and 10,200 foreign missionaries.
In the evangelized non-Christian world, there are 1.31 million full-time Christian workers. 103,000 foreign missionaries( 24.5%) , 5,000 being in 31 restricted-countries.
In the Christian world, there are 306,000 foreign missionaries to other Christian lands. 4,000 in restricted-access countries .Also in the Christian world, 4.19 million full-time Christian workers (95%) work within the Christian world. ”
From Cha Cha:
“The Morning News has identified 189 Christian missionaries killed in the past seven years. Of them, 158 were murdered. That would be about 22 a year. ”
How many LDS missionaries are murdered each year for their beliefs? There have been a few over the years, but nothing that compares to the Christian missionary effort.
Christians have just as much zeal as the LDS it’s just that all of their zeal is for God and people, not the LDS corporation.
Jaxi
That all depends on what you call deep doctrine. What most people here call deep doctrine is actually theological speculation, and that is not taught, because it is speculation.
I have actually been out with the missionaries on many occasions, have recently attended a training for such work, and have studied the guides for them. There is really no actual doctrine that is not taught, or is not counseled to be taught before baptism, or at least soon after. It is done in a progressive manner, like all good lessons are, but it is still taught.
The problem is that people like to claim speculation and theory as doctrine, and then get mad when we don’t actively teach it as such.
Old Man
Once again we see that you can’t stand a person actually using the English Language. No, we can’t have missionaries because that would interfere with your world, as only you can have missionaries. So, we have to alter the meaning of the word, along with a few others, so that you can claim sole ownership of them.
Your attempts to re-write the English language are almost laughable.
Thanks for the numbers Kate. I have to admit my only experience with missionaries are Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. I waive my comment. I do agree with Old Man’s comment on salesman. I have had several family members tell me training stories about watching their face expressions on videos so that they are aware of how they look. When I heard about the training it just sounded so, scripted and forced. A friend even told me a story about how during the training, missionaries get yelled at and embarrassed. One was shamed for going off script because if you go off script it’s like saying you know more than the church leaders who authorized the wording in the lessons. Another friend left the Church after her mission because she was asked to lie about certain historical questions on tours. She was to avoid polygamy questions at all cost and teach that the wives that lived with Brigham Young just lived there but the relationships weren’t sexual.
When I mentioned zeal, I meant more the zeal of the youth. Many, not all, of the youth are Mormon missionaries because they truly believe they are spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many are extremely sincere. They make huge sacrifices to go. He didn’t think he was serving a corporation, he believed he was serving Christ. He enjoyed the service aspects much more than the door knocking.
Shem
As you are no doubt aware this is a Christian site, & therefore any reference to missionaries are made in the context of Christian missionary activity. Within that context members of the LDS are NOT missionaries, they do not preach the Christian Gospel & therefore disqualify themselves from that calling. If, by your constant ridiculing of the things I say, you hope to beat me down then think again, I repeat, your so called missionaries are nothing more than unpaid sales persons for a business Corporation masquerading as a church.
“Your attempts to re-write the English language are almost laughable.”
In answer to that insulting remark may I refer you back to your previously unknown & ridiculous definition of apostasy? I don’t suppose anyone reading this is aware of it but should they come across it then I am quite sure they wouldn’t think it was me who was laughable.
If anyone needs instruction in the correct use of my native tongue it is you my friend.
Jaxi,
I was born and raised LDS and I do know what you are saying, but a lot of the boys who go out on missions do so to appease their parents or a girlfriend. I have seen this too many times to count. A lot of those boys come home early.
Think about the primary songs and lessons, missions are pounded into LDS kids from an early age. They are encouraged to save their money so they can go on a mission. My point is, how many of those kids really have zeal for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how many are indoctrinated or brainwashed?
It’s more sincere to me when Christians decide to go on missions and help people than when LDS kids decide to go on missions to please someone or because it’s expected of them. In my area of Utah, kids are looked down upon and judged if they choose not to go on a mission. That’s a lot of pressure for a kid, and let’s be honest, they are kids.
I have had the missionaries knocking on my door since I resigned. I questioned the last set of missionaries about who their god is. They wouldn’t tell me. I got the “He’s our Heavenly Father.” I told them who their god is ( exalted polygamist man ) and they said they’d never heard that before. These kids are clueless about LDS doctrine and I think it’s a shame that the LDS church sends them out so unprepared. It’s no wonder half of them go inactive or resign after they get home. If these kids are being told to lie about any part of Mormonism, then what are they really doing out on their mission? I agree with you and Old Man, they are sales people.
Kate,
having served a mission for the church, I would say your statement is not accurate. We helpded many people while I was out. Yes, our primary goal was to teach, but I helped people in southern brazil build houses, dig wells, clear land, tutored kids, among many other things during my time there. We held english classes once a week and overall, we tried hard to help people.
No Jaxi, I think your initial posts are right, it’s not just perception. No one can really argue that mormons focus heavily on preaching the word. It may not be the word you like, but to say that Mormons dont focus on missionary efforts is someone ignoring the truth. Kate, we get it that you dont want to be a member any long and will find fault however you can, but you know the church tries hard to follow the commandment to feed the sheep. And I dont know if you served a mission, but I did, and my experience says that it was a multi faceted job, teaching and helping. I sacrificed a lot to be there, and it was not easy. Sales people? Please.
Kate said, “I was born and raised LDS and I do know what you are saying, but a lot of the boys who go out on missions do so to appease their parents or a girlfriend. I have seen this too many times to count. A lot of those boys come home early.
Think about the primary songs and lessons, missions are pounded into LDS kids from an early age. They are encouraged to save their money so they can go on a mission. My point is, how many of those kids really have zeal for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how many are indoctrinated or brainwashed?”
This is ridiculous. Are there mormons out for the wrong reason? Of course. When you have that many people out, you are bound to have some out for the wrong reason, but to generalize the effort and discount it tells me where you are at with regards to the church. Your accusation belittle my own sincere effort and the real sincere effort of the majority of missionaries I served with. It is insulting.
Brainwashing? While i was there teaching, the universal church was making a heavy push in the area. We stopped at more than one house where families told us how they had sold many belongings to buy their place in heaven while the local preacher (an x-mormon actually turned “christian”) drove around in luxury. We helped more than one of those families with food and blankets, only to have a few of them tell us they were told not to communicate with us anymore or they might go to hell. Good times.
fightinglee,
I never once said that LDS missionaries don’t help out while on their missions, but the main goal of an LDS missionary isn’t to help out the people. It’s to baptize converts into the LDS church. That’s why you went on your mission right? Tell me, when you were trying to convert members, were you forthcoming with LDS doctrine? When you were talking about your god did you tell them who he is? How he came to be god? Did you tell them that Jesus is your spirit brother, the literal son of Heavenly Father and also the spirit brother of Satan? Did you tell them your god is a polygamist and that polygamy will be practiced in the CK? Did you tell them they could become gods themselves? Did you tell them that they would only obtain Salvation after all that they could do? I’ve seen the missionary pamphlets and they are very vague and as Jaxi said:
“What bothers me about LDS missionaries is that they don’t teach the deeper doctrine to their converts before baptizing them. They present a very Christian looking gospel. Have you seen the show the District on BYUtv? The peer pressure and hurry to the baptismal font on investigators is upsetting to me. They baptize many people before they even know what they are signing on for. I think this is one of the reasons LDS convert retention is so low.”
This is the result of not being open and honest about LDS doctrine. Retention rate is very low for converts in the LDS church. In fact I read here on MC that 70% – 80% of converts leave. This is proof that LDS missionaries are sales people.
“Kate, we get it that you dont want to be a member any long and will find fault however you can, but you know the church tries hard to follow the commandment to feed the sheep.”
Please. I am posting my experiences and also facts. You may have had fantastic experiences but that doesn’t disqualify the experiences of others. The church is more concerned with it’s image than with people. If they are trying to feed the sheep, why aren’t they honest up front about what those sheep are fed?
No Kate. I went to help people. I personally didnt baptize a slew of people, but i made lasting friendships, both with people I batpized and those i didnt. I do not consider my time with them, and the friendships we still share as lost. Why? Because I think they are awesome people, and I dont assume they are going to hell just becuase they didnt get baptized in the mormon church, unlike christian church that thinks all mormons will go to hell.
Kate, what doctrines do you need to believe in to be a mormon? I ask you this. Do you need to believe in polygamy to be baptized, or have a temple recommend, or be saved according to mormon doctrine? You came from a very rigid mormon home it sounds like, because there is a whole other slew of belief out there in the mormon church. What did hinckley say about polygamy and its practice after this life when asked. Do you even look up more modern prophet discussion, or just find random sentences from BY and then apply them as absolute truth on the church. I dont think BY was much of a prophet in terms of his teachings. I guess I consider him to be a leader of the church, and guess what, it doesnt exclude me from the church. It doesn’t prohibit me from carrying a temple recommend. I dont have to believe I will practice polygamy after this life.
Guess what, it doesnt affect my standing in the church. Hinckley himself said, I dont think we know much about that. To be honest, I think most modern prophets and leaders dont buy into a lot of what BY said, and we dont teach it as doctrine. Some buy into everything that was ever said by a church leader and or prophet and think that’s the way it is, and in order to be a mormon you have to. Not true. There are many of us that dont. I think there are general authorities that dont, but it is also not their style to go back to the 1800’s and rag on a guy for his decisions.
You left the church because you were raised in it to see it everything as absolute, unbending, infallible, etc. The truth is, Prophets screw things up, and they are partially a product of their times and cultures, just as we see in the OT as well. You probably grew up thinking that all the prophets sat around eating dinner with God. I dont have any issue at all with the idea that Joseph was the only prophet to have seen God. In the OT, centuries passed without men seeing or talking to God.
I am not trying to belittle your experience, but your experience dont qualify you to see into the hearts of all other members and claim they are working just for image or are brainwashed. It has been shown that members that increase their education and learning solidify their testimony in it, which is pretty contrary to the rest of religion on a whole.
I think they do, and you should too:
Romney was an ordained “prophet”. Romney said this in front of many ordained “prophets”. Every single one of them affirmed him in his calling as a “prophet” until the day he died. Not one of them corrected him. This is what Mormon “prophets” teach. This is diametrically opposed to what you wrote.
Kate,
and yes, i did teach who my God is. I taught about the premortal life, and I taught about the fact that we are spirit borthers, ALL of us, the good and the bad. Why? I loved teaching that. Because its beautiful and its true. You Kate, are my spiritual sister, and though we might disagree, you are. Plain and simple. And I am far less than perfect, and maybe you are a better person than I am, but we both are children of the same God. You said that we are not literal offspring of God, but we are. I am sorry you no longer believe in that, because its teachings are there in the bible. Why would I not teach that?
And yes I told them they could become like God. Yes! It’s in the bible. And guess what, a lot of people like that!!! It made sense, because if God is our father, then why shouldn’t we become like him as Jesus said, “that they may be one, as we are.”
We have eternity together. Why should we not progress and become like our Father, and work to obtain his perfect qualities? What do you dislike so much about that?
And then you read somewhere here on CK that retention is only 20 to 30%????? And that is proof because you read here on a site against mormonism? No wonder you left the church. Well, someone said it, and it supports my feelings, so its proof? Geeze.
The church teaches its doctrine. Do you know the steps of doctrine in the LDS church. Did you ever investigate what makes doctrine? It must be accepted by the first presidency, so digging up random statements from leaders is not doctrine, and no, we dont teach those things. We teach what has been accepted doctrine, by the first presidency that has gone through the steps of accepting that as God’s teaching, anything else is the feelings of a person, and not accepted doctrine.
No one has seen God. That is what John said. I believe John.
This is ridiculous. So, if you have to go through all of that to have a “doctrine” then why did Jo and hundreds of others until 1852 practice polygamy without doing all that? Why did they deny the priesthood for YEARS to people with BLACK SKIN? It wasn’t doctrine yet, was it? They had to have it approved, didn’t they? Why didn’t they? So are you saying that they practiced polygamy and denied the priesthood to those with black skin because of FEELINGS? These kinds of conclusions by modern Mormons who live in a bubble never cease to amaze me.
This is ONE in LOVE. Not ONE as in GODHEAD. sheesh.
fightinglee,
Your comments about Brigham Young are a little shocking. If what he revealed from god (his claim) was false doctrine then Mormons have a problem. He was a false prophet. If Brigham Young was a false prophet then who else was? Yes I was raised in a pretty “stick to the teachings of the prophets” home. Most people I know were. That’s why everything you post is very unfamiliar to me. The Mormonism I know does not allow you to pick and choose what you believe, especially about prophets. It doesn’t allow you to disrespect Brigham Young as you just did. If Mormonism were true, all teachings from all LDS prophets would line up and no one would have to be thrown under the bus.
“Kate, what doctrines do you need to believe in to be a mormon?”
Is that your only goal? To be a Mormon? What about your Salvation? What about Jesus? Tell me, where is Jesus in any part of becoming a Mormon? My goal is to obtain Salvation (live with God) by the blood of Jesus. It’s not to be a member of a denomination.
If the LDS church is the only true church of God then it’s doctrines and teachings should be front and center! Mormons should be shouting the only way to the CK to “the sheep.” I would think that at the very least I should know who God is! I should know how I am to obtain Salvation and what things I need to do to make it to the CK. I should have the truth of it all explained to me, not some whitewashed version that sounds very Christian-like. Yes I should know about god being a polygamist and I should know that being a polygamist wife for eternity is going to be my fate! Potential converts have the right to know what they are getting into. Converts get baptized by LDS missionaries quickly before they have a chance to Google Mormonism!
“Do you even look up more modern prophet discussion, or just find random sentences from BY and then apply them as absolute truth on the church.”
As a matter of fact I have, and here lies the problem. Brigham Young laid out his “revelations” for god, along comes modern prophets who come out with their own thing and throw Brigham and all god revealed to him under the bus. Which prophet are we supposed to believe? What revelations did Gordon Hinckley give to the world? At least Brigham was hearing from god right? Where are the revelations from god to modern prophets? Please don’t tell me I can hear them twice a year at GC because the tired old “don’t look at pornography” “be chaste” and all the faith promoting stories are not revelations. The problem with you and some other LDS who have posted here is that you think Mormonism is whatever you choose it to be. I know that is NOT an LDS teaching.
It’s called the modern Mormon bubble Kate.
fightinglee,
“And then you read somewhere here on CK that retention is only 20 to 30%????? And that is proof because you read here on a site against mormonism? No wonder you left the church. Well, someone said it, and it supports my feelings, so its proof? Geeze.”
http://vimeo.com/36503895
The quote was actually in the Salt Lake Tribune. Watch the video that was posted here on MC.
Old man said..
If that’s true then why is there so few of you here behaving like Christians?
grindael,
“It’s called the modern Mormon bubble Kate.”
I guess it is. Most of the LDS who have posted on this site are teaching really foreign stuff. If we could pick and choose what doctrines to believe and in some cases even change what that doctrine says, there’s no need for a prophet right? We could just be our own prophet. Once again, where is Jesus in any of this? That’s my go to question 🙂
This, of course, is the Mormon reply that comes from being cornered without any serious rebuttal to their doctrines and teachings. I suppose that all of the instances of Jesus own apostles calling out heretics and false teachers should be classified as “unChristian” also. More diversion from the Mormon bubble.
fightinglee,
Well said.
I think a lot of the critics here project the concept of inerrancy on to the leaders of the church. When in reality, and all the LDS I know accept this reality.. There is NO SUCH THING as INERRANCY, except that which comes DIRECTLY from God. So every word or deed that comes to us by way of human beings is subject to the errant and fallibility of the human.
Now as for Joseph Smith seeing God and Christ. I find it incredibly bizarre that the so-Called Christians here, if you can call them Christians, seek to dismiss and denounce the only person from which we have a first person testimony of seeing Jesus Christ.
To put it in perspective, these so-called Christians claim to believe in Jesus of the Bible, yet none of them claim to have seen the risen Christ, The with the Bible manuscripts we have no first person witnesses.. Mainly because we have no original manuscripts, and much of the text of the NT was written by NON-eyewitnesses in the first place. Yet here comes a man, Joseph Smith, who gives testimony of the seeing the risen Christ.. and they shun him, and seek all manners of ways to discredit him.. Does this sound familiar? like the Pharisees of the Bible?
Ocean said
What a Joke, Dont quit your day Job, you wont make it as a comedian for long.
JS Had 9 First Visions. Some of those Visions he claimed to see NO ONE, Only hear Voices, Then some of them were an angel, or angels, Not Jesus. So Do you take the word of some guy who cant get it right as to what or who he saw? Or do you simply believe only the vision where he claims he saw the risen Lord? Did you miss the verse in the Bible that claims Satan can come in the form of an angel of light. Wow, You really are deceived.
Here is a sample of some of OC’s comments…
You see what we have here folks. OC can claim that Christians are dishonest with the IRS, that we ignore the context of the Bible and that our beliefs are only “dogma” to serve a “parochial need”, he can say that “true blasphemy and sacrilege” is not believing in a “heavenly mother”, say we have cognitive dissonance, call Christian doctrines “man-made”, and “nonsense”, He can call people liars,( “I can only assume you never went to church or read any church literature”,) but gets all offended when he is called one, that we lie to ourselves in that we only “regurgitate party polemics”, That Evangelists don’t even understand the Trinity (we are stupid), that we are delusional, are full of “emotive antipathy”, that the Trinity doctrine is “ridiculous”, that we discriminate, murder people, worship the Bible, believe in fallacious doctrine, are spiritually bankrupt, are deceptive, deceivers and SO-CALLED Christians, who are nothing but Pharisees.
Does that about cover it, OC? There, I’ve said it all for you, so why stick around? OC, the Mormon “expert” can snidely name call and denigrate Christians and their theology, and yet he complains when Christians feel the need to Defend themselves against the attacks of Mormonism. Of course he is now crying “unChristian conduct” with every other post because folks, he feels cornered and intimidated by the truth.
If what people say on this blog is so Un-Christian, then why is the only PROCLAIMED Christian, the great OC of the Mormonites, replying in the same vein that he accuses us of? I find this kind of thing amusing. Who can take this guy seriously? People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Tsk.. tsk … tsk… Poor OC… subjecting himself by choice to such outrageous unChristian behavior…
We have engaged in more than enough discussion of each other’s shortcomings. Let’s please get back to discussing the topic of the OP. Thanks.
Jo Smith CLAIMED to have a vision where he saw God the Father and Jesus in 1820. Problem is, the FACTS don’t fit his claims. It is actually quite easy to show that Jo never had this vision. But as to “first person testimony of seeing Jesus Christ”, why Jo wasn’t the only one. Read this account from a Palmyra newspaper in 1823. This account was published a MONTH before Jo claimed to see an angel that told him about buried gold plates. It is called the Prognostication of Ada Wild.
Wild claimed,
Sound familiar? Jo Smith & Oliver Cowdery wrote a History in 1834 which stated that a month after this happened that Jo wanted to know “if a Supreme Being did exist” and so went to pray, and almost exactly the same thing revealed to him, but it was by an angel who is described EXACTLY as Asa Wild described him, from the Book of Revelation. This history does not mention the claimed 1820 vision.
This was not the only vision like this. But unlike Smith’s, this was published because the person claiming it, talked about it AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED, unlike Jo, who said he did but we can find no trace of it.
Hay, this New Mormonism is pretty cool.
The founders and Mormon prophets can be ignored because they were a little wacky, or a lot wacky and you can just believe what you want.
So, I ask, what’s the big deal about having a modern day prophet if they are just speaking out of their own imaginations and what they say doesn’t have to be believed or taken seriously?
And there’s a limited set of things that a person has to believe in in order to be a Mormon? There are a lot of things that don’t really need to be believed or practiced, right? I love buffet table Mormonism.
But could someone please tell me what is required to get to the highest level of the CK and become a god? Is that just sort of nuanced and not to be taken literally?
It appears that once again we have Mormons showing-up here and talking about a form of Mormonism that none of our former Mormons are familiar with. I really like our former Mormon posters but it appears they left Mormonism because they really didn’t understand it.
Nothing like the clarity of the restored gospel of Mormonism!
So Kate, Jaxi, grindael, Ironman et al,
What sort of strange form of Mormonism were you guys practicing? I really don’t understand how you could put in the collective numbers of years you guys did and not understand it.
grindael, shame on you. You served a mission. You went to BYU. How could you be so deceived as to what Mormonism is to the point you would leave?
And Kate, BAD GIRL BAD!!!! You went to seminary classes didn’t you? What were you doing flirting with that future MM boy sitting next to you and not paying attention?
I have thus far learned that you don’t have to take one thing these Mormon prophets have ever said. You don’t have to tithe, get a temple recommend, go through any of the endowment rituals, keep the Word of Wisdom, get sealed in the temple or any of it.
I know there are Jack Mormons who smoke, drink alcohol and coffee, swear and serve no callings. COOL!!
Hay, they sound like Joseph Smith!
Falcon, your last comment reminds me of something my ex LDS sister said to me when I was complaining that I kept being accused of not understanding doctrine but no one could clarify what I wasn’t understanding. She said, “But Jackie, of course you don’t understand it. If you did, you would believe it.”
Jaxi,
OOOOO that’s so good. The closing of the elusive loop. “If you understood it, you would believe it.” I LOVE that!
So could it be said that if you believe it, you understand it?
Hay does that apply to the doctrine of the Trinity. That all of us who believe it, understand it? So if Mormons don’t believe it (Trinity), it’s because they don’t understand it?
Man, just think of that idea of understanding and believing. Does that apply to all the different world religions? Can we apply this to the FLDS?
What about adam-god, blacks barred from the Mormon priesthood, and blood atonement. If someone doesn’t believe it, it’s because they don’t understand it, right?
Let’s take the doctrine of transubstantiation or any number of religious doctrines.
Here’s the thing though. How could you former Mormons do all of that study and research into Mormonism and come to wrong conclusions according to active Mormons?
Hay take a couple of minutes and watch this video.
We have this very attractive young and articulate Mormon woman explaining why people get it all wrong about the Mormon-planet creation scenario.
Is what she says accurate? Is she blowing some smoke around?
I’ll let you judge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C32K9w2eLVU
OK,
Especially for Kate and Jaxi, two former Mormon women. I mean you’re still women of course.
A four minute tutorial from our cutesy, expressive young Mormon woman: What Mormons Believe About-Women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCr2Pi7JI6k&feature=endscreen&NR=1
I promise. My last one for the night. It’s 2:34.
What Mormons Believe About: Jesus Christ.
As told by the young lady who I’m sure must have been a Communications major in college.
WOW, I can’t understand why our former Mormon posters left Mormonism when they discovered that there is a difference between who Mormons say Jesus is and what the Bible reveals. Mormons worship Jesus and there is a picture showing Him dying on the cross. Is that where Mormons believe the atonement took place?
Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3jNRphNTxo&feature=endscreen&NR=1
You see folks, enthusiasm sells.
Be cheery, up beat and positive and the chances are, most people will probably believe what you say; especially if you say it with conviction.
Old Man………is right!
What we basically have with the LDS church are a bunch of fresh faced, clean cut sales men going door-to-door selling religious vacuum cleaners. Hit hard the features and benefits of the LDS bogus product and generate emotions in the prospect…..or should I say “prey”.
In the videos I posted above I’m wondering, does that young lady really believe what she’s saying. The “what Mormons believe about Jesus” video is especially deceiving. What she should say is what GBH former Mormon prophet said regarding the Mormon Jesus not being the Jesus of Christianity.
The presentation is pretty clever, the way it’s shaded.
Falcon, I make this brief because I don’t want to stray to far off topic .
I watched two of those video’s , and I had to feel sorry for that young woman . I’m sure she’s
a very pleasant person to be around and would make a good neighbor but the video should
have been titled ” What this Mormon believes ” , since there’s a much better source for
Mormon doctrine : the General Authorities .
Easy. I joined the church when I was 12. I was told all this great stuff about Jo Smith. I was given books to read, testimony to ponder and of course the family I was staying with were Mormons. In those days, (in the 1970’s) things like Jo Smith’s 1832 version of the claimed 1820 vision were just being discovered. The Church was getting over the control of the Historians Office and Leonard Arrington was just getting warmed up. Dialogue and Sunstone and other venues were only for Mormon scholars. You would not see one of those issues lying around the Ward building. We were “counseled” not to read “ant*-Mormon” literature.
We went to Seminary and learned the sanitized history of the Church. There was not one instance in my Ward of anyone ever speaking about the blacks and the priesthood or things like that. (I lived in Oregon and there was not even a black person in my High School) until the lifting of the ban. We read books like Mormon Doctrine, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, History of the Church, and studied the Book of Mormon in Seminary every day before school. We all were in the Boy Scouts and went to Church firesides where we would hear people like Paul H. Dunn and Einar Erickson and Hugh Nibley speak. I remember the Ward renting the movie Kelly’s Heros and we watched it at a fireside. They would do things like that. I remember that there was a TV in one of the church classrooms that was used by us for weekly after school meetings and we would watch BattleStar Galactica on it after the meetings.
Anyone who dared to contradict Jo’s story was a mythmaker. I gave many talks on Jo Smith in my Sacrament Meetings. I was the go to guy for anything historical about the Church. But all the resources I had, were the approved materials. I had the Journal of Discourses but we were discouraged from reading them, as they were deemed old and outdated. We put on Stake Dances and socialized. We had MIA meetings during the week where we went out for activities. I remember going to see the play “Saturday’s Warrior”. It was a musical and I had to go a long way to see it. I remember that music and it made a big impression on me at the time. This is how all of us saw the church back then, what they call opinion and folklore now was the basis for all of that.
By the time I was 19 it was natural to go on a mission. In my case, I was seriously injured in a accident on my motorcycle in my 19th year, so I could not go. I went on my mission when I was 21, so I was a little older than the average missionary. I hear all kinds of things said about Mormon missions, but the missionaries I served with were clueless. I had companions that wouldn’t go out at all. I memorized the 7 lessons in 12 days, (a mission record) but most of my companions didn’t know them. My first companion (my trainer) was an ex Mission President AP (assistant). He had a car, and it was great. That was the best time on my mission. He was a really great person. After he went home I was on a bike for the rest of my mission.
That was hard for me, because of my leg injury. I can’t begin to tell you how hard my mission was on me physically. But I rode my bike and knocked on doors. I went on a mission to a heavily populated Catholic population and I baptized 20 or so people (I can’t remember the exact amount). I was in so much pain on my mission that I went to some doctors that were members (referred by the Mission President) and they gave me a bottle of about 1000 painkillers. I took them for a week and I hated them and gave them back. I’m not kidding about the amount, it was way different back then, and there was no prescription. I asked more than once to be assigned to a car but the Mission President said no. He said I need to be a Sr. and most of the cars went to the ex AP’s. There were not a lot of cars in the mission. I got every unproductive, troubled companion you could get. I don’t think this was punishment, I think the MP was just pretty savvy. He tried to pair me up with those guys to help them.
I found that my devotion to the church was criticized by most of the missionaries, and I was the butt of many jokes. Many of them were from Utah, and didn’t care a whit about the Church, let alone have a testimony of it. That did not discourage me though, there were others that did and I hung out with them when I could. I’d say it was about 50/50 in that regard. Most of them broke the rules, many dated, listened to unapproved music and hung out with members all day. They would lie about their productivity and about other things. The members though loved us and I remember many kindnesses from church members on my mission. Many of my companions were unchaste, and had horrible personal habits. I had one companion from the Philippines who was a nightmare. He was lazy, and fried EVERYTHING and loved to talk about eating dog. But all of that didn’t matter to me, it didn’t affect my belief.
I got home and went to BYU. I went there to study Church History and wanted to be a Church Historian. That is when I really had my eyes opened. When you are on a mission you go to a lot of members homes for dinner. I did anyway, and we were encouraged to then. Most of them had good collections of books which I read. I was always reading something on my mission. I was into my second year at BYU (I had to work full time to pay for college) and I found that Utah was far worse than my home Ward. Most of the youth my age drank. I was invited to R rated movies which I had never gone to back home. I was astounded at the laissez faire attitude of the Utah Mormons. I was invited by a really cute girl to see 48 hours (Eddie Murphy) back then and I wouldn’t go. She thought I was crazy. I kinda regretted it. I took Greek and French at BYU because they had a collection of French translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Special Collections part of the BYU Library. Having read much of Nibley’s works, I was determined to read them. I submitted 14 articles for the Ensign/New Era Magazines in my freshman year and all were rejected. (I was a lousy writer back then).
In my second year at the Y I started hitting old bookstores in the Provo area. I went on a trip to southern Utah and met some fundamentals at a used bookstore at Fillmore I think, but can’t remember. They had a long talk with me about Adam-god. I told them they were misinterpreting Brigham Young. They were amused because they knew better. I was given some information compiled by Ogden Kraut (I believe) which peaked my interest, so I started investigating. I couldn’t believe some of it was in the Journal of Discourses. I regretted not reading them more than I did (which was very little by that time) What I found out led me to leave the Church. It wasn’t an easy decision. There is a lot more to the story, but I’ll end it there.
Was I duped? In some ways yes, in other ways no because most of the Mormons I grew up with were raised in the church and accepted what was taught without question, and there was not the easy access to information like there is today. For example, when I went to my Stake President after I left BYU and tried to discuss Adam-god, he knew NOTHING about it. Zero.
Do I understand Mormonism? Perfectly. I would venture to guess that I know more about it than the majority of church members. I was so devastated about my self excommunication that I became an atheist. Many people think you leave the church because you hate it. I left the church because I loved it. I loved what they told me it should be, not what it was. That kind of thing can destroy a person.
grindael,
Thank you for the time you took to write out your testimony. I know it’s helpful for me to get a historical context for an “era” like the one you grew-up in. I have a lot of questions and thoughts spinning through my mind.
The life styles of the Mormon young people you grew-up with and those by contrast in Utah is interesting. The degree to which “real” Mormonism was buried and the type of (Mormonism) you were taught speaks volumes.
I want to connect the Mormonism you were taught to the videos of the woman I posted above who was giving a “what Mormons believe” presentation. It seems to me that there are a lot of notions within the Mormon ranks as to what Mormonism is that bears no resemblance to reality; or perhaps Mormons make-up their own reality.
Based on what you reported about the MM it’s pretty easy to see why so many walk/run away from the LDS church. They don’t want anything more to do with it and that’s without even learning the things you learned.
grindael think about it. You loved Mormonism as it was presented to you. You believed it, embraced it and it formed the foundation of your identity. And it was all a hoax.
Is it any wonder Mormons put so many things “on the shelf”? They don’t want Mormonism to not be true.
The woman in the videos I posted has this light, airy “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain” quality about her. It is sort of like “We don’t believe that. How could anyone believe that we believe those things. Tee hee hee……people are so silly.”
I wonder what she really knows and of course “understands”.
Some say LDS youth are not brainwashed into becoming missionaries. Okay, fine.
They are indoctrinated in that direction, however.
Spencer W. Kimball said, while church president: “I am asking for missionaries who have been carefully indoctrinated and trained through the family and the organizations of the Church, and who come to the mission with a great desire. I am asking … that we train prospective missionaries much better, much earlier, much longer, so that each anticipates his mission with great joy.”
Indoctrination definition: Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine). It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of education, political opinions, theology or religious dogma. The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning.
I highlight this “It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.”
That last line, to me, is the issue and the problem (having been a well indoctrinated LDS missionary myself).
So we could ask, “Who understands Mormonism better? Is it the former members who post here or the current members who post here?”
The current Mormon members want us to believe that the former members learned a lot about Mormonism BUT what they learned was either wrong or they applied the wrong understanding to it.
There are Mormons who brag that, “I learned all of that stuff a long time ago and it doesn’t effect my testimony one bit!” To me it’s like catching your spouse in bed with someone else and denying that they are cheating on you.
There’s always a creative explanation that allows the believer to continue to believe. I can see why, based on what grindael wrote, that it would be a real shell shock to learn that everything you were told was a total white wash. It’s more of a “what we want it to be” rather than what it is.
So our current Mormon member posters believe they have the correct understanding of Mormonism despite the facts and evidence that’s available.
I’d never want them sitting on a jury!
Let’s see what else the Bible has to say about earthly governing bodies and how we have to interact with them –
Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work
1 Peter 2:13 – 16 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
It appears from Romans that all power on this earth, including the power to rule a country, is authorised from Jesus, who as the OP states has all power and authority over this world. So nothing gains power unless He wills it. Then from the other verses it states that we should be subject to these governments.
But Jesus stated “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” which supports the other scriptures I have given. We are to show by our example that we are faithful citizens to the governments in order to make our changes. This is what happened in East Germany which is how we were allowed to build a temple there while the iron curtain was still up.
On the other side, if the government has a law that has a practise that does jeopardise the soul, like in the OT when Daniel and Shadrak, Meshak and Abednigo were challenged, those laws were in direct opposition to the 10 commandments and worshipping God which is why they did not follow that law. The laws against proselytising and handing out Bibles in that country does not oppose any commandments or laws from God. We can still teach them when they come out of their country and they can teach their friends and families when they go back in.
So those that ‘break the law’ by proselytising or smuggling in Bibles in the countries that prohibit these things are going against the Bible as well as the countries’ law.
grindael,
I don’t know why I thought of this but someone must have made the observation before and it was hiding in the recesses of my mind.
Anyway I was reflecting on what you wrote and it reminded me of the movie “The Truman Show”. As everyone remembers, “Truman” was a young man who unbeknownst to him, lived on a movie set. He had been born there and a whole community was created and then broadcast to the world; the story of Truman.
The problem is it was all fantasy but Truman believed it was true. To Truman, the movie set was a real town, the people were real town’s people and the story lines, his life. It was his reality. He understood it to be true.
From your description, you lived in a Mormon Truman Show. There’s the scene at the end where Truman is making his escape and the man who was the director was trying to prohibiting him from leaving. But Truman does escape out into a world he knew nothing about but it was reality.
Mormonism tries hard by all conceivable methods including the creation of the Mormon Truman Show to keep people from leaving and when they do leave, to get them back.
So what we see on this blog is a tussle between the current Mormons who believe their Truman Show is real and the former Mormons who know it’s not.
I’ve heard it called “the Mormon bubble”.
Falcon,
This is kind of off topic to the post but here is some of my experience with belief, doctrine, and understanding. When I did my 5 hour meeting with the Stake President he just kept telling me the whole time I was understanding it all wrong. I kept asking him how am I supposed to be understanding it and he couldn’t ever give me an answer. At one point I blamed the Church for it causing my mom to go into depression because all three of her children have left the Church and her parents (she was a convert) never accepted it. She is devastated by the fact that she thinks that only she and my dad are the only one’s that will be with God. She can’t figure out where she went wrong. Her eternal family is broken. I told him that this church claims to be strengthening families but it doesn’t, only if everyone falls in line do you get a “happy” family. He told me that my mom and I understand it all wrong. I said, “Really? The Church says that I can still be with God without accepting Joseph Smith?” He said, “It’s not Joseph Smith, it’s Christ’s Church. You have to accept Christ’s Church.” I said, “I do, the one that He originally taught. The one that has it’s roots in Him.” He said, “That’s this Church.” I said, “Says who? Joseph Smith? So again, I have to believe him to get to God. I can’t just believe Christ and what He taught was the Church to get to God?” He said, “You aren’t understanding correctly.” He ended up concluding (I think so he wouldn’t offend me), “I believe that you and me will both be with God as long as we are acting with integrity and sincerity. I wish most LDS members took their faith as seriously as you do. And if you need me to call your mother to tell her she has it wrong I will.” I said, “so I don’t need the ordinances to be with God and be saved, I just need to act with integrity and sincerity?” He said, “No, I am not saying that. But the ordinances aren’t saving.” I almost exploded with anger when he blamed my mom for feeling the way she does and that she isn’t understanding LDS Church teaching right. I can be with God, but I need ordinances, but my mom shouldn’t believe I’m not going to be with God if I don’t stay in the Church, but that I do need the LDS Church. Basically, say whatever makes the person feel the best but still make the LDS Church the center of everything. Don’t believe things that make you sad, it’s the plan of happiness.
Surprisingly most my LDS friends say I will still be with God. I keep telling them that’s great but that’s not LDS doctrine. Some others say they will just do my temple work again. I’m so glad they have that feel good doctrine to fall back on. Good thing they threw McConkie under the bus because he taught it was harder there to accept than here. That’s why missionary work is supposed to be so important. But my Stake President very much made it sound like everything would be made clear to those (and me) in the after life, which differs from what I was taught, which was if you weren’t in paradise you were in rest but also in a state of confusion. So if you are learning why missionary work is important the Church says, we have to do it now because it will be harder later. But if we are talking about loved ones that aren’t LDS, everything will be made clear and they will accept it. The teaching changes based on the needs of the LDS Church. A commenter will probably say, there is no “official doctrine” on that, we just don’t know. If no one knows then they need to stop teaching one side or the other and make an “official” we don’t know statement.” The other response I get is that the bottom kingdom is so great that I would kill to get there. I tell them that to me life without God is hell, so that might make them feel good, but its an insult to me. My dad said that he doesn’t worry about all that because he did what he was supposed to.
Basically, I was told I don’t understand if whatever conclusion I came up with was a criticism on the LDS Church. If I argued one side, the other side was argued. Surprisingly I argued the other side, then they would argue back the original side. No wonder I am so confused. If I make one statement, they say that isn’t official doctrine, but the thing they tell me in response isn’t “official” either. I really think this making nothing “official” if going to bite them in the butts. One day, maybe hundreds of years from now, someone is going to claim a vision and that the LDS Church is in apostasy. They are going to try to clear up all the doctrine and teach what Joseph Smith “really” meant. There are so many things that the church does and teaches that are not in the standard works or in the proclamations. When you make only those things official all the LDS tradition is up for grabs. You don’t have to believe the scriptures the way the LDS Church leaders interpret them because it may be opinion. What they are doing is allowing LDS scriptural interpretation to be up for grabs. You don’t really need to listen to the leaders because they seem to spout out false opinions all day long. Actually, I think it’s more like, you have to listen and obey your leaders all day long but you don’t have to believe what they say because it’s opinion. But they have authority, so listen to them anyway. If they mess up it’s their fault and will be their sin, but your obedience will be rewarded. My previous Stake President actually said to me, “Sometimes God allows false doctrine into his Church for his purposes.” My God doesn’t like false doctrine and if it exists in the Church, it is not for His purposes. And if someone argues that my previous Stake President was wrong. Really examine your statement. You are saying that God allows His prophets to teach false doctrine.
I wanted to say this in response to Oceancoasts comment about Christians not behaving as Christians. I was unable to do because I had reached my daily limit, which was due to arguing on 3 different topics with 3 Mormons whose speciality seems to be in personal insults. I came in this morning to try again only to find that Sharon had told contributors not to discuss each others shortcomings any more. I don’t believe that my comments do this but if I’m wrong in my interpretation of the rules then I accept that my post will be deleted.
Oceancoast said
“If that’s true then why is there so few of you here behaving like Christians?”
As you refuse to show the entire quote I’ll show it
“As you are no doubt aware this is a Christian site, & therefore any reference to missionaries are made in the context of Christian missionary activity. Within that context members of the LDS are NOT missionaries, they do not preach the Christian Gospel & therefore disqualify themselves from that calling. If, by your constant ridiculing of the things I say, you hope to beat me down then think again, I repeat, your so called missionaries are nothing more than unpaid sales persons for a business Corporation masquerading as a church.”
Why don’t you respond to what I was talking about, namely the Christian definition of a missionary instead of throwing out blanket accusations? Are you saying that our behaviour is unchristian because we tell the truth? If you choose to think that we don’t behave as Christians then it might be helpful if you explained to us how we are supposed to behave. Let me tell you something, since I first came to this site 7 weeks ago I have been accused of lying, I’ve been told I that I have no understanding, that I am arrogant, I talk nonsense, I don’t know anything about Mormons, I have double standards, I don’t know the meaning of words etc etc. need I go on? I am heartily sick of being told such things by people whose only defence is obfuscation distortion & outright lies. I’m tired of Mormon circular reasoning, using LDS doctrine to prove LDS doctrine. Mormons tell me to debate logically & rationally & then prevent me doing so by redefining the English language.
Attack me or others here if you feel the need but DO NOT expect us to stand meekly by while you defame the name of Christ with your heretical LDS babblings. DO NOT accuse me or anyone else here of not behaving as Christians when you have no idea of what Christians are or what Christian behaviour should be.
Oldman, I say a big, amen to what you said and agree. The bible in proverbs one of many passages say, the lying tounge is an abomanation to the lord.
oceancost,
Yet here comes a man, Joseph Smith, who gives testimony of the seeing the risen Christ.. and they shun him, and seek all manners of ways to discredit him.. Does this sound familiar? like the Pharisees of the Bible?
I have said the same thing here. Pharisees. If christ came today, there is a large section of Christians that would stone him. He would be the most incredible, humblest, most loving person possible, and they would crucify him because he doesnt teach the made up stuff in the Nicene Creed or walk around condeming gay people and mormons to hell. It;s the same thing.
The “christian” world wants to shun all sinners, and yet Christ ate with them, taught them, forgave them. The pharisees found fault in him for it. Like the “christians” today, they want Christ to burn everyone they dont agree with. They want to accuse Joseph smith of fraud, the exact same charge laid against Christ. The pharisees claimed his healings were faked. They didnt believe in Him because they had built up some other belief of who He was. He didnt fit their model, so they rejected Him. The same thing would happen today. The jews wanted Him to fly down from heaven and smite down their oppressors, and when He came with a different goal, they couldnt accept it. Today, they want him to burn and send to hell everyone that does not accept their model, even as half the christian world doesnt agree with the other half. I find that to be the most odd of all. Mormons are going to hell because we think we should obey his commandments and work along with receiving grace and because we dont accept the trinity, but half the christian world bickers over these same subjects. Heck, its the reason we have 8 billion denominations that cant agree. So which ones of those denominations are going to hell?
Kate,
christians as a whole from denominations always choose what to follow and what not to. Also, when we talk about retention, the lds church is one of the few that has a real definition of active and non-active persons that other churches want to use as retention.
You chose to ignore my statement about what constitutes doctrine in the LDS church. The church has never claimed that every word out of a prophets mouth is doctrine. We have since the early days of the church established a system for doctrine, and most of BY’s statements do not meet that requirement and are not doctrine. He also did not call them doctrine or force anyone to accept most of what he conjectured about. The fact that you cannot distinguish conjecture from actual doctrine makes it very apparent why it was so easy for you to fall away from the church when confronted with literature against the church. For one, you have tried to apply your modern model to the 1800’s which wont fit. You cant expect everyone to behave the exact same as you do today when things people and customs were different.
It doesnt really matter to me if you like my personal views on BY. It is you that built a false paradigm of the church, and then thought that everything out of BY’s mouth was doctrine. It was not. The church has stated that. He stated that. I am sorry that you took his thoughts on things and then tried to believe they were God’s doctrine. BY spoke with people about his beliefs and thoughts on subjects. If he wanted to convey something the Lord had shown to him, he then predicated with that.
Kate, you left the church for your own reasons, mostly probably because of your own assumptions you built of leaders that werent factual, but you dont get to say what mormons should believe or shouldnt believe. Most of my christian friends dont have any idea what they believe and they admit it freely. They sure know though they arent required to do anything to be a member or even go to church, though. So, how’s that for retention. What are we calling retention? If we use the christian formula, its pretty high, because most mormons dont resign thier membership, right? Even if they no longer participate, or just go a few times a year. Well, in most christian churches that’s retention. Show up sometimes, dance around, offer up some money, and your a christian, say a few halelujahs and claim you believe in Christ without action to back it up. That’s really the view I see. It’s a view I experienced as well.
Look, when the church lays down a doctrine, OFFICIAL DOCTRINE, members are required to follow and believe. That is true. I am not picking what to believe and what not to believe. You are trying to pick and choose what you think mormons should believe, and you picked things the church never claimed as things to believe. I believe every official doctrine of the church. I also do not believe BY is a fallen profit as you so bent my words. I said he was the leader of the church, and I don’t think he spoke as a prophet very often. Just like I dont think Jonah was being very prophet like when he wanted the Lord to kill everyone in Nineveh after they repented. My belief doesnt hinge on everything that escapes the mouth of a leader. BY himself asked the people to pray about the things he taught. He didnt say, accept them blindly and do what you are told. You will notice most the things he yelled out from the pulpit he did not say the Lord had revealed to him, or the Lord was talking. Some he did. Some he did not, and people ignore the setting for these statements as well, and completely leave out whole sections of context, both spoken words and the setting of the statements. They were not accepted by church doctrine either. I dont believe BY had some vision of every doctrine and knew what he was always talking about. I think he was the right man for the job to lead the saints west and out of persecution.
There you go. That’s my perspective and there are members who agree with me, and members who do not. But I am an active, believing member of the church who accepts and follows all official church doctrine. I am not misrepresenting the church, Kate. You are. You didnt know your own church’s stances or beliefs in regard to prophets and doctrine when you were in the church, and you dont know them now. You certainly dont get to say what other mormon’s have to believe. And yes, my goal is salvation, and I have found the way there. So when I say, I am following the doctrines of my church, I am not saying a merely a mormon, I am saying I am following the laws that God and Christ laid down to achieve such salvation.
Oceancost,
I agree completely about most x-mormons and those that want to nit-pick the LDS church to death. Most of it hinges on the wrong assumptions about what we believe, what prophets are and what they are NOT, and this belief that prophets that lived 3000 years ago probably didnt have any self doubts, sins, or other people that had dirt on them or saw them as less than perfect.
The double standard of modern prophets and biblical ones is incredible. Moses wrote his own story it is assumed and it is a story of events, not really much about the person. In essence, we know nothing about Moses. Nothing. We dont have any writings from his buddies, or the egyptains that hated him. We dont have writings and stories of every person that interacted with him. Same with everyone from the bible. We have their own writings, or one testimony from a guy that was telling a story to convince others that this person was a true disciple, or apostle and that Christ is the Christ.
So if all we had about Joseph Smith was D&C, then we basically have the equivalent of what we have about moses. If all we had were a about two or three letters he wrote to the church, then that would be the same as we have from a lot of NT authors. But that is not the case. We have the history of the church which chronicles a ton of stuff. We have the writings of friends, enemies, aquaintences. All of them with different motives. If this was Peter, let’s say, and we were all jews, then we would be in the same situation. We would have Peter testifying that he knew Jesus, and he saw all these miracles, and you would have a bunch of jews saying, “I saw Peter do this, and he did that. He cut off this guys ear and I even heard he denied knowing Christ. And the Pharisees told me that that Jesus guy was a complete fraud and these guys are just making crap up. He hates gentiles and him and Paul cant agree. He’s a racist, etc” Imagine the mud that was slung from the pharisees and other jews that didnt accept Peter’s testimony, from those non-jews that felt he disliked them and in genrarl any people that just hated him or felt threatened by his teachings. The difference is, that was a few thousand years ago, and the only records and stories that survived were the ones that became the most popular (and the ones the catholic church allowed). That is history. It always has been. So its easy to see all those older guys as perfect. What other testimony do we have? It doesnt mean there wasnt any other views or mud to be slung, they just didnt survive.
Fightinglee
“I have said the same thing here. Pharisees. If christ came today, there is a large section of Christians that would stone him.”
I have long thought of Mormons as being latter day Pharisees & if you were to read chapter 23 of Matthew, in particular the 7 woes, then you might understand why YOU warrant that description.
I’m sure you must be joking about Christians stoning Christ, Don’t you realise that if Christ came today He wouldn’t even be allowed inside your temple, He wouldn’t be worthy, he would have a beard & He wouldn’t be wearing a tie, He would tell you that the wonderful building erected by the Corporation in Salt Lake City isn’t a real temple at all because He is the real temple, & then, worst of all, & I shudder to say this, He would tell you that Tithing is wrong!
You & your ilk are forever telling us that we know nothing about Mormons & that makes you a hypocrite! What do you know about Christianity you’ve never been a Christian? What do you know about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Nothing at all yet you continue making extravagant claims about things you have no knowledge of.