The LDS Church has issued a Q&A regarding China:
Can my friends be taught and baptized in China?
Not at present. Please contact the Church’s CAU Director for guidelines and further information.Are there any activities that I should pay attention to avoid?
Please do not distribute any Church literature or other religious materials; please do not seek to attend Church meetings with foreign Church members…
This is consistent with earlier sentiments I have heard expressed by Mormons: That the LDS Church “respects the law” so much that it won’t preach its message where it is illegal to do so.
But what does Jesus say?
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 18:18-20)
And what did Peter say?
“And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5:27-32)
grindael,
Thanks for posting your former experience in the LDS church. I was raised in the same era and only studied from LDS sources. The LDS church doesn’t want anyone studying outside of their approved manuals, etc. so they can control information. That worked well until the the information highway became available to everyone. Now they are backed into a corner with their whitewashed version of doctrines and history and they are trying their best to do damage control.
I was thinking last night about the differences between Utah Mormons and Mormons outside of Utah. I think most of the Mormon posters here are not Utah Mormons. You lived here in Utah so you know that there is a huge culture here. The kids I grew up with were as you described. Boys who were nightmares went on missions lol! This is why I said boys go on missions to appease parents or a girlfriend. On the other end of it were the kids who were so totally naive about the world because of overly religious parents and ended up coming home needing medications because they were ill prepared for the world they were put into.
Mormons who aren’t from Utah do not understand the strict culture here and it is clearly shown in their comments. Their form of Mormonism is very foreign to me. Let’s look at the bright side though, according to people like John Dehlin, you can believe whatever you want about Mormonism just don’t leave the church, and for heaven’s sake, don’t talk about what you believe to others or you may find yourself in a “court of love.”
falcon,
Thanks for the good laugh this morning 🙂 My husband and I took a marriage and family class at church for like 12 weeks or something. It was pounded into us what our “roles” were. I was taught that I am so special because I am a pro-creator with God! But my husband is “over” me. So this woman isn’t all that correct. I’m sitting here laughing because she isn’t even married! How does she know what it’s like to live with a man who is taught that he is the head of the household in all things! The really sad thing about this gender role thing is that there are so many women who are unable to have children. This is so hard for them as Mormons.
The video about planets also cracked me up. She says they don’t talk about it but the day I found out about this whole “men will become gods and rule their own planet” my friend had come from church and called me upset because the Sunday school teacher said in his lesson that he couldn’t wait to die so he could be a god and have his own planet. I looked it up in the Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie and there it all was. So this woman is trying hard to down play it.
I think what happens with us former Mormons is that we read the truth of what past prophets and leaders have taught and we take them at their word. We don’t make excuses or whitewash it, or throw them under the bus because it’s just their opinion. Mormons who say Brigham Young wasn’t speaking as a prophet when he gave the Adam/God doctrine should try telling that to the thousands of people who died believing Adam is God, including Brigham Young. Try telling that to the FLDS who still believe Adam is God. What happens to people who believe in false gods?
Mormons can deny, twist, spin, or outright lie about what their church doctrines are, what past leaders believed and taught, past revelations, etc. but the truth is there in black and white. Mormons have always been good record keepers. I didn’t leave the church because of what I wasn’t taught, I left the church because of the truth about it that I read from past prophets and leaders. They must have wanted it all believed or they wouldn’t have published it for the world to read.
fightinglee,
Please post all “official” LDS doctrines so that my confusion will end. Thanks.
here you go Kate, a quote that simplifies your life:
This is an official church declaration on LDS doctrine:
“The First Presidency … and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles… counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price).”
Have you read all these standards works as a member? So, as a part of the doctrine & covenants is the basis of what is accepted church doctrine. These examples are more modern revelations added to D&C and they fit the model of church doctrine.
1830, Bible and Book of Mormon were officially accepted with the organization of the Church
1835, Doctrine and Covenants, first 103 sections were officially accepted
1880, Doctrine and Covenants additional 32 sections were accepted along with the Pearl of Great Price
1890, Polygamy was repealed (Official Declaration, p. 291)
1976, D&C sections 137 & 138 were officially accepted
1978, The priesthood was made available to all worthy males regardless of race (Official Declaration 2, p. 292)
Old Man,
I have explained many times that i have not been a member of the church my whole life. So for one, your base conclusion is wrong. As a “christian” as you put it, I found it completely unfulfilling and not in accordance with the bible. I attended a number of christian denominations and felt my faith taking a serious blow as i researched early Creed history and the catholic church history. It was apparent that religion had been used for quite a while as a means of control and power, but not to help anyone or further anything that Christ said in the bible.
My claims are not extravagant at all. Most christians love the fire and brimstone speech and condemning everyone to hell. Its their go to statement in the end many times. Oh, and you can go to the temple with a beard. If not, they have been letting me and my bishop go with beards for quite some time, as well as many other people. I believe every one of our prophets had a beard up until the 1950’s. Old Man, YOU SO SILLY.
fightinglee,
Specifics on temple ceremony aren’t in the standard works. Guess that’s not doctrine. Specific scriptural interpretation isn’t in the Standard Works. I guess I can pick and choose what the scriptures mean in the LDS Standard Works. What makes LDS Church immune to apostasy? Is it that they are guided by the Holy Spirit? But that was given to the original Church at Pentecost. How did they loose it? Was it from teaching false doctrine or sinning? I don’t think you can say LDS leaders were immune from that. Was it because past Christians killed and did bad things. I don’t think LDS leaders or its people are immune to killing either. They killed apostates and the whole Mountain Meadows Massacre thing. Hmmm, so how come this current set up is immune to apostasy but not the original Church started by Christ?
fightinglee,
Once again we have conflicting information from different church leaders.
“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints In regard to one particular DOCTRINE which I revealed to them, and which GOD REVEALED TO ME-namely that Adam is our father and God-…’ (Deseret News Weekly, June 18, 1873)
After talking about Adam being our god Brigham then warned:
“Now, !et all who may hear these DOCTRINES, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation? (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50,51)
Brigham also said:
“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent It out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” (Journal of Discources, vol. 13, p. 95)
So once again, which prophet are we to believe? They contradict one another on a number of doctrines and issues.
You stated that section 132 was accepted as doctrine so why aren’t you a polygamist? Oh that’s right, polygamy was “repealed” in 1890. Well how can they both be official doctrine of the church? Section 132 was a revelation given to Joseph Smith and the 1890 manifesto is only a “declaration” so doesn’t the revelation trump the declaration? How is it possible to have two conflicting “official” doctrines of the church? Which one should you follow? Mormons say polygamy is an abomination but don’t tell how it’s practiced spiritually in their temples everyday. Contradiction! Why not just leave these men behind and follow Jesus?
Fightinglee said
“I have explained many times that i have not been a member of the church my whole life. So for one, your base conclusion is wrong. As a “christian” as you put it, I found it completely unfulfilling and not in accordance with the bible. I attended a number of christian denominations and felt my faith taking a serious blow as i researched early Creed history and the catholic church history. It was apparent that religion had been used for quite a while as a means of control and power, but not to help anyone or further anything that Christ said in the bible.”
Your statement says far more about you than it does about the truth. Let’s start with the basics, I said you have never been a Christian & the fact that you are now a member of the LDS show that what I said is true. Many Mormons become Christians but a true Christian could not & would not become a Mormon. The truth is that YOU decided what Christianity should be rather than letting Scripture TELL YOU WHAT IT WAS & when you found that it wasn’t what YOU WANTED you found something else that better suited YOUR beliefs. Your statement tells me that you had no faith to start with. Then you go on to say ” It was apparent that religion had been used for quite a while as a means of control and power, but not to help anyone or further anything that Christ said in the bible.” what on earth do you think the LDS is about if not control & power? Would you like some figures to show that the corporation, the wealthiest church per head in the world, gives far less to charity than any Christian Church? E.g. the corporation gives roughly 0.6% of its income to charity, the Methodists give roughly 30% So much for your contention that Christian don’t help anyone!
Now, as usual you are very good at taking the minor points I make & then turning them into something major to deflect criticism. As an example you mention the wearing of beards & perhaps you have a valid point, but what about the more serious things I said, where are your answers to those? Are you prepared to tell me that Christ would be considered worthy even though He told you that Tithing is wrong? Would He be worthy after telling you that your temple wasn’t needed because He was the temple? You don’t reply because you can’t.
How do you know that ‘most’ Christians love the ‘fire & brimstone’ speech, do you know most Christians? What you say is pure speculation on your part. No Christian worthy of the name would ‘love’ fire & brimstone, you’re talking through your hat as usual.
Finally, after all that, you have the nerve to tell me that I’m silly!
Then Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow & Joseph F. Smith should be denounced as false prophets because they were sinners and could not have had the Holy Spirit because they broke the law and practiced polygamy. And this is not from the Bible, it is from their own scriptures which say to obey the law.
The Bible has no such qualifier. Let me show you what it says in context: The Bible tells us to
And
Those who are in countries that outlaw religion are being subject to spiritual death. It is our obligation to rescue them. Jesus did not limit where we preach the gospel, as we shall see below by what Paul did.
Titus has a qualifier, Verse 8:
Peter’s words speak only to the EVIL that governments protect us from:
Romans 13:1-3 reads,
Yet you see the phrase, “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. (You forgot to include that part) This phrase is critically important because it reveals the context in which the Bible is speaking: appropriate government is only a terror to evil works; but not to good works. Good government is NOT a terror to good works. In other words, when a government is run amuck with crime, tyranny and injustice, we are not Biblically obligated to submit anymore.
The Apostle Paul deliberately broke the law.
Jesus broke unjust additions to the law of Moses.
What you are doing is reading into the context of this what you want to Ralph, not what the Bible really teaches.
You missed:
The Lectures on faith and the articles of marriage – (ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN)
So the doctrine of the Church was that God was a spirit, Jesus was God in the flesh and the Holy Spirit the MIND of God. (Lecture V which Jo wrote himself)
From 1835 on the law in the Church was ONE MAN ONE WOMAN in marriage. Anything taught contrary to this was FALSE DOCTRINE. Anyone who taught or practiced polygamy was teaching and practicing FALSE DOCTRINE.
Authorized polygamy but it broke the commandment given in D&C 58, so it was STILL false Doctrine. And the Lectures on Faith were never voted on to be removed, so Jo’s polytheism is STILL false doctrine. You see how silly this is? You see the Mormon bubble at work?
So Joseph Smith saw Jesus. WOW!
Did he see any other spirit beings? I understand he saw all manner of (spirit beings). He even saw an angel with a sword who threatened to kill him if he didn’t practice plural marriage. Can you imagine that?
I post this periodically because I think it’s good for Mormons to check it out since they are into this sort of thing.
BTW, did the Virgin Mary appear to Joseph Smith? I’ve got all sorts of testimonies regarding that. I’ll link to ones I find particularly interesting.
As a former Catholic I find this first one very interesting.
http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm
This one is related directly to Mormonism; dreams etc.
http://www.parishretreat.org/index.php?id=story
Grindael , Kate, Tom, Brewed, Jaxi, Ironman, djstamps , you folks are a blessing .
It’s been enlightening to see how some of our Mormon guests just can’t fathom how
you could have left “the organization ” , after all your experiences just are’nt authentic ,
and the conclusion of your discoveries had to be bias !
Fightinglee, based on what you said to Kate about her conclusions as to why she found
Mormonism to be an unacceptable , I have to say you are somewhat naive . Your mindset
about the early creeds and that Christian churches believe all Mormons will go to hell
is reason that the Mormonism is the truth ? If that’s your reasoning then no wonder you
did’nt see the counterfeit gospel of Mormon apostles coming .
Then we have a Mormon ” intellectual ” stop by here whose emotional antagonism
toward many here finally came evident after his failure to convince us that Mormon
leaders have’nt established some discriminatory dogmas towards others who claim to
believe in Jesus . According to him we’re not christians, but only ” so-called christians ” .
I thank God for this ministry and those who run it . They have a desire to help the Mormon
people realize that in their desire to know of God they have detoured by men who have cleverly
convinced them to join an organization that is counterfeit of Jesus’ church he established
and which is described in the New Testament . Jesus warned us all to beware of men in the
latter days who would come and try to mimic His apostles —Mark 13:22,23.
Fglee,
Here is just one problem I have with LDS teachings.
You said we Christians all teach everyone is going to hell. This shows your clueless when it comes to caring about the truth.
First off, I mentioned some of this to you before, But lets do this again. Jesus spoke more about Hell than he did heaven. I gave you a few verses but can provide more if you need them. The apostles along with Jesus mention hell and describe how horrible it will be, and God said He created Hell for the angels, Not us humans, it is not Gods plan or will for any man to go to hell, the Bible says so.
No real, honest and true Christian desires anyone to go to hell either, yes we believe people will go there, are we happy and jumping for Joy over this? Some might, but we should not be. Also I give both sides or the entire Gospel, Gods love and Grace, but also the reality of what will happen if you reject that.
I also recall you saying to Kate, the standard works are “Official Doctrine” So you reject Official Doctrine when you reject eternal hell and people going there, even your BoM mentions it.
Now lets not forget, I told you that I believe the Bible, and I believe that when God said Hell is forever and will never end, I believe God meant what He said. So then you claimed that was MY INTERPRETATION, But I claimed that it was not, as I said, I simply said, I take God at His word.
So I guess I need to explain this like I am talking to a 5 year old. If you said, my name on this blog is fightinglee, then I cannot come on and say, well I think your name is Tina, So you would then ask, how do you decide to call me Tina when I said my name is fightinglee, and I said, well thats how I interpreted it to be. Or I can do as I do with the Bible and say, You said your name is Fightinglee and I believe that.
But I then did ask you, How do you interpret eternal Hell and never ending to have a set time to end?
How did you come to that decision and how do you know your right? You never did answer me on that, so why not answer it now, thats unless you cannot.
Fglee said
I already said this but will say it again in case you missed it, Can you prove JS saw the risen Christ? If you say yes, how can you prove it? Because He said so?
If I recall correctly, JS had NINE, count them, 9, NINE, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, First Vision accounts.
In some of those accounts he only heard Voices, then some said, he saw angels, and just one angel, then he saw God, then he saw Jesus. So I am guessing you only believe the one where JS said to have saw the Risen Christ. So knowing this, let me add one more thing, The Bible says, that Satan can come in the form of an angel of light to Deceive people. So Maybe Satan was the one JS SAW and spoke to. I’m guessing thats the case since Jesus explain that Satan is the father of lies and many people speak his language and we know JS does speak his fathers language.
Fglee, kate asked you a question and this was the response you gave her.
Now I want to point out a few things before I get to my bigger point. If the BoM is considered Official doctrine, then years ago your prophets and the BoM taught that Black skinned people will have their curse Lifted, and they will go from Having Black skin to White skin.
Now when that never happened, the Mormon scriptures were changed to say, They would become pure. Their is no, and I mean Zero evidence in the BoM stating this change was made by man or your leaders. I have read LDS on this blog stating the changes were noted, I pointed out that I have a 1977 triple combo and it says blacks will have white skin. I had MM over my house that had a newer copy of the BoM I showed them my copy to compare to there copy. I pointed out to them the change and said, show me from my copy any where it states the change has been noted. They could not do it, and if you claim it is there and I am simply missing it, then lets do this. I will give you the phone number for a local LDS ward in my area, you call them and verify it is an actual LDS church and not simply a friend of mine.
I will then show up and meet anyone you name from that church, I will bring my Copy and they can look it over and if it is not noted as I claim, then they can in my presence post on this blog that I showed up, spoke with a church leader or ward president or who ever I speak with that I showed up with book in hand and it does not exist. Then you guys can explain why all these changes are made and never noted.
Or you can admit here and know you know they are not noted and explain why.
Now Fglee, onto my bigger issue, You told Kate that the 4 standard works are Official Doctrine, and I once pointed out to Shem and others that JS made the Claim that the BoM was the Most correct book upon the earth, and that a man can get nearer to God by abiding by it’s precepts. So can you tell me everything that is found in the BoM that if I follow and believe will get me nearer to God than the Bible? And you cannot give me Bible verses that are found in the BoM since if you do that, then I might as well just ignore the BoM and read only the Bible, and just so you know, I have myself read all 4 standard works from cover to cover and I have asked this challange as it were of other mormons here Like, Jason, Shem and Ocean and none have replied to me on this. I suspect there is a reason why they have not, because they cannot, can you?
Last point is this, You said the 4 standard works are Official doctrine, and as I pointed out about the BoM BEING THE MOST CORRECT, This is how Shem replied to me. This was under the topic, Living by the scriptures.
So do you agree with Shem that the BoM contains Less error, or the least amount of error over the other books?
Let me say this, I will point out what I find to be issues with this statement and add, again, No one has answered me on this, and That is really no surprise. LDS claim the Bible is not translated correctly, and JS claimed the german version is the most correct translation. So if thats true, why dont LDS use it?
If the Bible is translated incorrectly How come no Prophet has gone to the Lord and asked for the correct verses? One LDS (Shem or Ralph) said a prophet did, that was JS and that was how we got the J.S.T of the Bible, yet I have yet to see a single LDS on this website quote the J.S.T of the Bible, they always quote from the corrupt Bible and can never seem to tell me how do they know the verses they quote are the un-corrupted verses, Why is that?
Then if the BoM has less error than the rest, then that’s admitting the BoM has error, and why has it never been corrected and it implies the D and C and the Pearl have error, so how can you trust official doctrinal books with all these errors.
Kate,
You are so right about the Utah Culture.
I lived in St. George for 5 years. I moved there from the Seattle area. I was shocked by how perfect everyone seemed. I’ve never seen so many beautiful women. I met my husband who had left the church but didn’t really know what he believed. In the process of getting to know each other we decided to sit down and compare doctrines and do research about the LDS church and about Christianity. When I learned the truth about the church everything made sense. The plastic surgery, the depression, the eating disorders, the gossip, the over all fakeness, and self destructive behavior… Everything was about putting on a show. I made the most amazing friends in Utah and I miss them. But now that we have moved away, I don’t ever want to go back. It feels like the church has a strangle hold on it, especially in towns like STG. HIs family are all Utah Mormons that can trace their heritage all the way to the pioneers. I can’t believe how many things they hide. I had no idea my husbands great grandpa was an alcoholic who committed suicide. Everyone said it was a hunting accident because he was a prominent member of the church. The polygamy, the abuse, divorces, all get swept under the rug for the sake of keeping up appearances.. It’s nuts! One of my dear friends in STG didn’t believe in the church at all, she said it didn’t make any sense. She said she would never leave because of what people might think of her. So sad.. A majority of them have no idea how different their faith is or what life would be like outside of it. It is it’s own little world, isn’t it?
Fglee said
“Yet here comes a man, Joseph Smith, who gives testimony of the seeing the risen Christ.. and they shun him, and seek all manners of ways to discredit him.. Does this sound familiar? like the Pharisees of the Bible?”
Here’s the deal. The Pharisees had prophecy being fulfilled right in front of them. They saw Jesus fulfill all the prophesies of the coming Messiah. They saw him preform miracles. They had all the evidence they needed to know Jesus was the Messiah and still did not believe. They were too busy being religious and more righteous than everyone else. They didn’t care about God.. They cared about looking good and holy and better than everyone. They followed the law to a T, yet were unable to see God literally right in front of them. If anyone is a pharisee, it’s you.
How dare you compare Joseph Smith to Jesus. What did Joe do to prove he was who he claimed to be? Bring forth a mystical book with no historical relevance or original manuscript to back it up? Founded a faith seeped in deception, manipulation, polytheism, sexism, and racism? Nobody has to seek to discredit JS, he did a fine job of discrediting himself. By the way, God’s word COMMANDS us to question doctrine and test prophets. When I tested Joe and questioned the LDS doctrine, they failed. I can’t ignore that. People I love are being mislead, manipulated, and lied to. At best I worry about their constant anxiety and feelings of unworthiness, at worst I worry I won’t see them in the next life. It makes me sick. Don’t you dare compare these people to the Pharisees. THey are here because they love mormons and want you to know the truth. What’s in it for us? Nothing is better than seeing people set free by the truth of God’s word. That’s it. I dare you to test JS. I dare you to test BY. I dare you to test president Monson. I dare you to test your doctrine. I dare you to look up the history of the LDS Church. For real. I feel like the only reason people stay in the church is because it makes them feel good or they don’t know any better. Why are you Mormon, Lee? What does it give you that Jesus can’t?
Jo was wrong. The most correct book on earth is the dictionary. 🙂
Rick
Your post is spot on & leaves no room for manoeuvring, but, &, as is normal when arguing with LDS members, you’ll receive no coherent answers, when you receive any at all that is. As regards your invitation, I’m quite sure that you don’t expect to be taken up on it & I’m equally sure that they won’t admit anything to you in here.
If I’ve learned anything from Corporation members in the relatively short time I’ve been posting here its ‘expect them to ignore me when they’re cornered & to expect any answers I do receive to have only the most tenuous connection to the questions being asked.’
As regards the BofM, one has only to look at the ‘translation’ method used to see it’s a scam. It was supposedly translated in a way that left absolutely no room for error.
B.H. Roberts the Church historian described it thus.
“….the Nephite characters with the English interpretation appeared in the sacred instrument; that the Prophet would pronounce the English translation to his scribe, which when correctly written would disappear and the other characters with their interpretation take their place, and so on until the work was completed” (B.H. Roberts, The Seventy’s Course in Theology, First Year, p.111).
That means of course that there should be NO errors in the book, none at all. The apologists may well say, ‘any errors we’re made by the scribes’ or may even blame the printers but that is patent rubbish, if God would not allow the translation work to continue until the words were correctly written then it would have been impossible to complete the BofM if there were errors.
I wonder what kind of success MM are having in places like China? We could ask that about any foreign country. I’ve heard that MM don’t have to be as guarded in some of the third world countries as they do in those more highly developed. First of all access to the internet is limited in these countries. The obvious advantage is that the prospect/prey doesn’t have the educational background or resources to check-up on the claims of Mormonism.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the religious tradition of the folks in the country being proselytized would help to shape the presentation. If those being approached are animists, the MM might be able to emphasize becoming a god as a major feature. It could also be led with. Of course then the MM would actually have to know about that doctrine; the Mormon god program. The MM wouldn’t have to claim that Mormonism is Christian. It wouldn’t matter.
I went through the Evangelism Explosion training years ago and the emphasis was on presenting Jesus Christ, period. It had nothing to do with any particular denomination. If Mormons were really interested in the salvation of peoples’ souls that’s what would be front and center, Christ and Him crucified. Instead what do we get? The five points of the Mormon gospel are; 1) BoM 2) Joseph Smith’s a prophet 3) LDS church is the one true church 4) current prophet is the real deal and then in position number five is Jesus and this isn’t the Jesus revealed in the Bible.
In fact it’s on this last point that Mormonism really takes off into outer space. If Mormons were to present “Jesus”, it would be this fictitious, bizarre caricature that has no basis in any scripture.
I would guess that there isn’t a Christian poster here who gives any real thought to converting someone to a particular religious organization. We never even hear people say where they go to church on Sunday. It’s all about Jesus. That’s the way it’s suppose to be.
I thought this would be a good place to mention “Brother Andrew”.
Andrew van der Bijl (born 11 May 1928 in Sint Pancras, Netherlands), known in English-speaking countries as Brother Andrew, is a Christian missionary famous for his exploits smuggling Bibles to communist countries in the height of the Cold War, a feat that has earned him the nickname “God’s smuggler”.
A very old interview but it presents his story. About eight minutes. Well worth the time.
It speaks to the importance of God’s Word. When I was growing up Catholic, we weren’t encouraged to read the Bible. The message was that it was very complicated and only the priest had the training to read and interpret it correctly. The idea, really, was to keep people from error. So when I got saved I bought a copy of “Reach Out” which was the NT version of the Living Bible. I literally inhaled it. It wasn’t long before I bought a copy of the New American Standard Version which I still read today. I’ve had the cover replaced once and it’s full of my highlights, underlines and notes.
Having a firm understanding of God’s Word, dividing it rightly, keeps people on track. The Holy Spirit guides us, teaches us and confirms God’s Word in us.
http://www.cbn.com/tv/1471900340001
Falcon
It’s interesting that you should mention Brother Andrew, I read his book many years ago & it it was was a fascinating read, he had an amazing story to tell. The Pastor of my local Church left us in the mid 80s to join the organization he set up.
Brewed,
I have also lived in St. George. It’s no different there than here. I have a cousin who left the LDS church years ago and she refers to LDS women as “the stepford wives.” In many cases that is true.
The church puts so much pressure on us to be perfect that I think women take it a step further and think they also need to be perfect on the outside. Appearance is everything and not just physical appearance. Some of the most devout LDS women I know are perfect on the outside but ugly and judgmental on the inside. I also know many LDS women who are the most genuine, loving, kind, generous people you could ever meet. Utah definitely has a culture. My friend moved to a different town when we were juniors in high school and she and her sister were shunned because they weren’t LDS. It was a lonely 2 years for her. I’m not saying the LDS church condones this type of behavior but it is definitely a product of Mormonism.
My sister in law was telling us some stories about her friend’s son that had just come home from his mission and he was in shock because on his mission, the bishop of the ward they were attending that day had gone out between classes and was visiting several men who were outside the church smoking. These men were LDS and at church. It bothered him so much that he asked the bishop why he would be around anyone smoking and even worse, on church property. The bishop looked at him and said ” If everyone were perfect, I wouldn’t have a job to do as bishop.” This kid was in one of the eastern states. Can’t remember where. My point is, Utah Mormons are different than Mormons elsewhere. It’s a lot more strict here. Everyone is in your business.
Old Man , concerning what you mentioned about beards and Mormon temple access ,
I think you may have meant one of the standards required for men to be enrolled at
” Gods University” —BYU ( at least the last time I heard this was one of their standards ) .
I am glad that you see through the reasoning that some Mormons resort to in their attempt
to convince us that only they are the true members of Jesus’ church He established 2000
years ago and which was supposedly restored in 1830 through His personal supervision .
A lot of Mormons are finally seeing that many of the arguments that were used to persuade
them into joining the organization are simply not what they initially appeared to be . So we’re
here to steer them not to a temple , but to a person because it’s only thru that door ( Jn 10:9) ,
instead of trying to qualify to go through the Mormon temple door , that is the only way eternal
is received . Heb 7:25
Kate, I was reading about the ministry that the late Pastor John L. Smith ( he lived in Utah for
almost 20 years ) , in his book ” Can Mormonism Be the Answer?” p. 78 where he cites a book
by Dr. Wilkerson , for many years Pres. of BYU , where he defended his never having to serve
on a mission : ” But the Bishop was of the old school who thought missions were largely to
reform young men and told me that in view of the record that I was making in school he would
not send me …” [ Wilkerson’s book : Brigham Young University , p 454 ) . Apparently in an
effort to help reform morally wayward young men they were sent on missions .
I thought that was interesting . In my experience with talking with Mormon missionaries ,
of the dozen or so I’ve talked with there was only one that was real arrogant .
Mike
Thanks for pointing out my mistake, I was wrong & I apologise. Admitting to being wrong isn’t a problem for me, unlike a few others I could mention. However, admitting to being mistaken about beards does not make me wrong on the other points mentioned & rather than being ignored I would like to see an answer to them, not an answer taken from the LDS manuals though, let me be shown from Scripture where I am wrong.
I just want to say thanks to the LDS here, They claim to be able to answer any question we send there way and nothing is to hard for them. How do I know that? Because they said so, Ocean the LDS member said
And after I posted my questions, the LDS here came in with Quick Reply an answered them all in great detail and did not hold back in honest answers.
O-wait, I’m sorry, I guess I was wrong, see I can admit when I am wrong also, despite what others may think. The LDS have not answered my questions, and cannot. So to that I say thanks, because I will use these same Questions when talking with MM I find walking through my neighborhood or that come to my door. Or if friends ask me, what should I ask a Mormon, I will use the questions I asked and say, challenge then with these questions. So Again, Thanks LDS you sure helped me.
Rick,
Let’s face it, Mormons have a tough job trying to defend Mormonism.
First of all what they are attempting to do is convince folks that the Joseph Smith story is true. When we ask what is the Joseph Smith story, it’s all about him having all of these various spirit beings appear to him with messages and revelations. The story then is that these spirit beings revealed to him all manner of things especially that the Christian religion had gone off the rails approximately 2,000 years ago and needed to be restored. It was Smith’s job to do the restoration.
On the surface, stories like Smith’s are not going to be met with anything but skepticism in most cases. If you’re a kid growing up in the religion, the stories are accepted because, well, you’re a kid. In the case of people who are targeted as prospects, certain techniques have to be employed in order to hit those few people who might believe the stories.
My wife and I toured a Mormon site last summer and it was pretty transparent to us, what the game was. I made a decision not to challenge the cute little young lady from the foreign country who was conducting the tour. First of all it was my impression that she was quite naive. Second of all there was a second “tier” of older adult workers there whose job it was to swoop in rescue any of the young tour guides if anyone should begin to ask challenging questions.
Bottom line, the pitch was all an appeal to the emotions.
One of the things that keeps coming back as we read the testimonies of our former Mormon posters here is that there was a lot that they didn’t know about Mormonism. When they began to search for and find out those things that painted Mormonism in a completely different light than what they had been told, they had a couple of things they could do with the information. They could deny the evidence as being true. They could accept that the evidence was true but there was an acceptable explanation (the evidence really didn’t mean what it appeared to mean). They could thus rationalize it all. They could “put it on the shelf”. Finally they could maintain some sort of personal integrity, admit the truth to themselves and walk away.
Now it goes without saying that there are numbers of folks who go through the motions and don’t leave Mormonism despite knowing the truth and not believing the Smith story. For personal reasons, it’s just easier that way.
Well at least he didn’t tell her that an angel with a sword had appeared to him and threatened to kill him if he didn’t marry more women.
Joseph Smith pulled the same sort of maneuver as this guy.
Is this something the MM include in their lessons with prospects?
From a couple of different news reports:
Jack Schaap Sentenced: Indiana Pastor Gets 12 Years For Sexual Relationship With Teen Parishioner
“According to letters released by federal prosecutors last week as part of the government’s sentencing memorandum, Schaap wrote to the teen that his sexual relationship with her was “exactly what Christ desires for us. He wants to marry us + become eternal lovers!”
“In his letters to the girl that were filed last week, Schaap said their relationship was “God’s plan” and often discusses how he helped save her from self-destruction, helping to put her on a “better path of living — that’s what we call Righteousness.”
“In another letter written to Schaap, she says she was shocked when he first kissed her. When she asked if it was wrong, Schaap told her it was OK.”
“You told me that I was sent to you from God, I was his gift to you,” the letter says.
“Schaap reportedly “groomed” the girl through counseling sessions and had sex with her many times — including during trips to a Michigan cabin, a Crete, Ill. vacation home and in his office during a youth conference, according to Chicago magazine, which ran a detailed feature on the pastor last year. Schaap also reportedly texted the girl often — as many as 662 times in one month.”
“In letters written to the court, the girl said the former pastor “told me to confide in him, to trust him, and he made me feel safe and comfortable around him as a man of God. … (Schaap) preyed on that trust and my vulnerability,” the Chicago Sun-Times reports.”
Falcon
Just a small addition to what I said previously about Brother Andrew, as I said it’s been many years since I read his book but if memory serves me correctly he was either in or had just left the French Foreign Legion when he ‘heard the call.’ Remembering that made me think & compare it with the LDS Missionary programme, his life shows what real missionary work is about. The job of LDS ‘missionaries’ is persuading people to join the Corporation. Brother Andrew was called to tell people about Christ & to provide the means for them to read His Gospel.
falcon,
“When we ask what is the Joseph Smith story, it’s all about him having all of these various spirit beings appear to him with messages and revelations.”
I wonder how many Mormons would buy into Matthew Gill’s story? It is so similar to Joseph Smith’s tall tale. I bet they would read it all and call him an imposter, crazy or a false prophet. It’s been awhile since I read his testimony, but if I remember right he had the angel Moroni appear to him as well. He translated the Book of Jeraneck, a book about the ancient people of the British Isles and Stonehenge is a part of all that. The name of his church is The Latter Day Church Of Jesus Christ, so we should accept him and his followers as Christians because Jesus Christ is in their name right? What about the claims of Christoper Nemelka? He’s tied into Mormonism too. Do Mormons see these men (who have had the same experiences as Joseph Smith) as prophets of God? Would they defend them the way they defend Joseph? They are only doing the same thing Joseph did. I can hear Mormons though, they would tell us that these men are false prophets because they didn’t go through the “right” channels of the LDS church. Nevermind that Joseph gave his oldest son a patriarchal blessing and stated he would be the next prophet of the church. Brigham swooped in and stole that from him.
Kate said..
Why do you believe the Christian story Kate? I mean it’s very similar to many other stories of its day. And what is your basis of the story in the first place? The writings a couple of ancient believers, most if not all are non-eyewitnesses. And they write their story, while living far away from Jerusalem LONG after the fact with NO contemporaries collaborating the story and yet you believe the story, WHY?
Take your time and ponder that. For your answer should be the same answer why LDS believe as they do..
Oceancoast
I’m sure Kate will answer for herself in her own good time but meanwhile I have a question for you.
I’ll probably be called silly or ignorant again for asking it (I should be used to that by now) but I do get a little confused. When members of the LDS go from door to door in their attempts to get people to enrol in the Corporation, they claim to be Christians. However, when they come in here they attack Christians & their beliefs. They come up with non Christian ideas they would never dare to mention in a missionary discussion. So, I would appreciate your help on this.
Are members of the LDS Christians when it’s convenient for them to be, e.g. when they’re trying to enrol people who are hardly aware of what Christianity is, or, are they Christians on a permanent basis but pretend not to be when they’re on a knowledgable Christian site?
Ocean , I think your credibility has slipped significantly so why waste our time in continuing
with your faulty reasoning and assumptions ? Life’s to short .
Hi everyone , I thought I share what happened to my dear friend who left the church as i did in Sep 2011, this past week.
This is a clear example of the brain washing at EVER LEVEL that will continue and will never stop.
My friend went to those functions for the young women to be taught about there duties act, a lady whose husband was the former Bishop of the ward, and now is a 2nd counselor in the stake Pres, gave a talk about how a windshield is alot like our lives and how it can get dirty or foggy act, my friend who was sitting next to her before she got up was treated very coldy by everyone there, they ALL knew he had stopped going.
So she says to the young women the following, let me say first my dear friend was in the Bishophic and a admired leader there, so she says ” young ladies if you have a parent who is not a member think of that as a fogged windshield and stay close to the parent that goes ”
When he told me that I am so glad my 8 and 10 yr girls will never ever go back to that garbage .
Anyway my friendship with my friend is so much more with both of us out, i knew he looked down at me at times, him being a leader, now we see eye to eye , heart to heart.
Each day out after 36 yrs is being free from a bondage that at the time you dont know.
I t truly takes a miracle for a person to leave in the right way, no person could ever hurt me enough to leave, it was not getting a answer to a question, then more questions came , again , no answers, of course a letter warning myself to stop .
We cant convince any Mormon they are wrong, this i learned, they become hard wired to believe , we all know this, it dosnt happen overnight , it is a miracle when it dosnt happen.
Oceancoast,
Faith and evidence. The difference between you and I are that I believe the Bible is the Word of God. You don’t. You say you do and include it in your “standard works” but in typical Mormon fashion you throw it under the bus. This tells me that not only are you NOT a Christian, but you have no respect for God’s Word. I KNOW Joseph Smith is a false prophet because of the history your church has faithfully written down. He gave many false prophecies and the Word of God plainly tells us how to tell if a prophet is false. I also know Joseph Smith is a false prophet by the way he lived his life, conning people, lusting after other men’s wives, having inappropriate relations with little girls, the Kirkland bank fiasco, etc. Jesus did none of those things. You go ahead and put your faith in Joseph Smith and I will put mine in Jesus. One question though, have you studied anything about Matthew Gill and what makes him any less a prophet than your Joseph?
Ocean,
Seeing as How LDS come here and claim to be Christian, yet claim Christians dont know what they are talking about, or LDS throw the Bible under the Bus by claiming to be Christian, yet then saying, the Bible cannot be trusted, or is not written by eye witness etc.
So As a result here is what I am going to start doing, and you LDS can tell me if what I am doing is ok or wrong. From now on, every time I am out and about and I see Mormon Missionarys talking with some person on the street, or even knocking on someones door, I will stop and run over, be it on the street, or even trying to get into someone house and I will tell the Mormon Missionary’s, Hey Guys, I’m LDS also.
I read all for standard works, I have my Triple Combo in had every where I go, I believe Joseph Smith was human and walked the earth, I believe He “claimed” to be a prophet. I believe in Jesus, so their fore I must be LDS.
Then I will share with the person(s) The LDS are speaking with and claim I am LDS and then tell them, I dont believe JS is a real prophet of God, That he had Nine first Vision accounts all spanning many years and explain all the differences in accounts. I will explain How LDS believe the Bible is not translated Correctly and that JS claimed the BoM is the Most correct book upon the earth and that a man can get nearer to God if they abide by the teachings of the BoM, yet no LDS can tell me what exactly is in the BoM that will get them nearer to God.
Then I will share, the Love of God/Jesus with them, and explain Grace and the Gospel according to Jesus and debate the LDS with the person(s) asking questions.
So Ocean, Shem, And Other LDS. Is that ok for me to do? It should be, you guys come here and do this, so I should be able myself to walk up on LDS entering a home or right on the street and do the same. If you claim I cannot, then I will say, to bad, I’m doing it anyway.
Kate,
Dont you just love How the Mormons, Like Ocean, claim their are no eye witnesses for the Bible, yet they trust JS, Who had 9 first visions. Yet they cannot tell us how you can claim to see 1 angel, then many angels, then just hear a voice, then voices, then see God Only, and all these dont bother them. But none of these accounts claim to have seen the risen Lord. Then Finally JS claims to have seen Jesus. Yet many accounts are not of the risen Lord, Yet that does not matter, they willing ignore all the rest in favor of what they want to believe.
But the Bigger issue is, Was Joseph Alone when he had these “Visions” or was someone with Him and saw what he saw? He was alone, so we have no eye witness accounts. So JS alone is not an eye witness account since we would simply have to take his many visions as trustworthy. And I recall a Mormon, Shem claiming one or two people were eye witnesses but since it was only one or two people, that simply is not good enough. So if one or two people is not an eye witness, then you being by yourself cannot count. Even Jesus said one or two people are needed to be witnesses.
There is zero difference between that pastor in Indiana who was sentenced to 12 years in prison for seducing that seventeen year old girl and Joseph smith. They both used their positions within their particular religious sect to seduce young girls.
The LDS make it all the worse by rationalizing and alibiing for Smith instead of condemning his actions for what they were. That pastor told the girl that it was God’s will that they were together and they would be for eternity.
False prophets and sham religious leaders have been pulling this sort of thing forever. They get these females to confuse their sexual desires for spiritual feelings. The reason I bring this up is because our former LDS posters often talk about the bill of goods they were taught about Smith and his sexual proclivities. They are either not told about it, it is denied, or some sort of tall tale is spun regarding it.
The whole point is that the MM must present a picture of Smith that is not only white-washed but a total fabrication. When people find out that Smith was marrying young girls and women who were already married it is a total shock. Now current Mormons will say that these former Mormons’ faith was weak. The fact is that these folks have a sense of decency and the courage to call Smith’s behavior what it was.
As Kate has said, a Christian puts their faith in Jesus Christ apart from any so called prophet or religious system.
Kate said
First of all what evidence? There exists no objective proof of the Christian story. It’s all hearsay.
Second, Faith? Faith is a Non-answer to the question. I asked you why you believe (faith) the Christian story and you answer with “Faith”? Faith is an expression of BELIEF, which is what I was asking you- why you hold that? Why do you have FAITH in the Christian story? So you didn’t answer the question, but merely dodged it.
Speak for yourself Kate.
I do no such thing.
Again, speak for yourself.. I have plenty of respect for God’s word. But are you saying that if your Christian you can’t attempt to understand the Bible for what objectively is? It’s like if you believed the earth was flat and I someone tells you it’s a sphere.. They aren’t throwing the earth under the bus. TRUE Christians existed when there wasn’t even a Bible, and TRUE Christian can handle objective talk about the Bible without it threatening their faith. For instance, I have faith in Jesus Christ, I would have faith in Jesus Christ even if there was no Bible or Book of Mormon. And that is the basis of my question .. Why do you believe?
All you are doing is throwing Joseph Smith under the bus because ??? Don’t be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand about so-called failed prophecies versus those in the Bible.. The Bible is FULL of failed prophecies, or at least they appear to have failed, and that’s all you have with Joseph Smith. Like here’s a whooper.. Take Matt 24:34 Jesus speaking of the things to come to pass before he returns.. ” Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
All this is based upon hearsay allegations..
No one here is saying he did.. And although Joseph Smith is in no way equivalent to Jesus, he didn’t do those things either.. The Kirtland bank was just one of the THOUSANDS of banks (actually a quasai-Bank) that failed that year.. Not unlike the massive amount of bank failures we just experienced in the past few years.. Except there was no FED Government program to bail them out. But here is where your hypocrisy and double standard comes to play.. You throw Joseph Smith under the bus based upon hearsay allegations.. Largely because Joseph Smith came in an age of literacy, and the existence of the Press which allows for you to get a glimpse int his humanity. For the Biblical Prophets, you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about them personally.. zip, zilch, zero.. But they too were humans. We do get small glimpses into some aspects in the Biblical narative occasionally that shows that even Jesus was look down upon by those who knew him for his apparent humanity. Hence it’s written Jesus said ” For Jesus himself had testified that a prophet has no honor in his own hometown”
My faith is in Jesus.. Joseph Smith is just a prophet, not the Christ. He never claimed in any way to be the Christ.
I knew nothing of him until you guys mentioned him.. I watchd a video with him and looked what is said of his book.. It appears as an attempt to mock the LDS faith. His story, book, name of his church and just about everything is a plagiarism of the LDS faith, but without any spiritual depth, in an obvious attempt to mock it. Joseph Smith on the other hand actually produced some fruits that could ONLY have come by some supernatural means. Of course critics here hypocritically discount those fruits without actually giving them any serious thought.. For instance, the BoM, tells a story where they buried Ishmael.. in a place known as Nahom.. Recent archaeology has uncovered alters from the 6th century BCE with the inscription tribe of NHM, right where the Book of Mormon places the burial of Ishmael. Joseph Smith couldn’t have know about these. Ancient Semitic writing doesn’t use vowels, so this find represents something that is only a vowel away from irrefutable proof of the Book of Mormon reference to Nahom. Now we see that Bill McKeever on this site is eager to dismiss that evidence.. This is yet another example of double standard, because as a professed Christian he undoubtedly would claim that the inscriptions found on pottery that appear to refer to David are doing exactly that, but those inscriptions too lack vowels and are only loosely interpreted to affirm the existence of David.. So if he was consistent in his standard, he would need to throw out the evidence for David or accept NHM altars as evidence for the BoM.
Rick B
As was mentioned in response to Kate.. Speaking objectively about the Bible is not throwing the Bible under the bus anymore than saying the earth is Sphere and not flat is throwing the earth under the bus..
Furthermore, I don’t recall where any LDS said the Bible cannot be trusted. That the text we have was not written by eyewitnesses is objective fact. It’s only your subjective belief that would run counter to the manuscript evidence that would suggest otherwise. Most of the Biblical authors don’t even claim to be eye witnesses, some state that they aren’t .. Some authors are dubious.. such as Matthew.. there is nothing in the Gospel of Matthew that ever suggests it was written by anyone named Matthew. It gets that attribution by traditions based upon a loose inference by something Papais wrote, which is inconsistent with the Matthew text.
But if you believe in the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy and completeness, as is declared in the statement of beliefs on MRM.. This doctrine is OBJECTIVELY FALSE.. easily proven to be not true.. So that’s not throwing the Bible under the bus, that speaking the Truth about the Bible.. Just like saying the earth is not flat but a sphere is the Objective Truth about the earth.
I have noticed something about Mormon apologists on this site recently. Whenever they get confronted with something bizarre or senseless about Mormonism they respond with something to the effect, well, you believe in silly stuff too, so there, how are we any different? (Kind of like Ocean’s last comment). While, there are things in Christianity that are miraculous, inconceivable, and have to be completely taken on faith, there is also a lot that can be confirmed with history and archaeology. So there is some evidence and some faith. Now what I think many Mormons fail to understand is that Christians believe they are in the true faith. The Christianity has been around a LONG time, especially when compared to little baby Mormonism. Christianity has gone through and survived a lot. The Christian God is the most important thing in our Christian lives. Now Mormons show up, with a different gospel, and say “We are the true Christians.” Why should anyone believe you. There has been no scriptures in the Bible that have led us to believe that we should be awaiting this “restoration.” Many scriptures tell Christians to watch out for this kind of religious behavior. We are going to listen to our God and our Apostles over an impostor.
So I can see if a Hindu said something like, ” you believe crazy stuff too,” because he is not basing his faith off our faith. But if Mormons show up saying they are the real deal and they have all the real Christian truth, coming out of no where, with no roots in the Christians faith, then they need to prove it. Christianity does’t need to prove itself to Mormons. It is the other way around. If you want to use the “you believe in crazy stuff too move,” than you need to remove yourself from Christianity and give us back our Bible. The truth is that you need the Bible because Mormonism can’t stand without it. You need the Bible and to be able to link yourselves with Jewish and Christian history to give yourselves any credibility.
Jaxi,
“I have noticed something about Mormon apologists on this site recently. Whenever they get confronted with something bizarre or senseless about Mormonism they respond with something to the effect, well, you believe in silly stuff too, so there, how are we any different?”
This isn’t recent or new. I have been posting here for about 2 years I think and it’s always this way. Mormonism can’t stand on it’s own 2 feet and Mormons are always throwing the Bible or teachings of the Apostles under the bus. What’s interesting is that they claim the Bible and it’s teachings are part of their scriptures. I remember how the Bible was looked at when I was LDS. It’s been corrupted by all those nasty monks who didn’t translate or copy it correctly and it can’t be trusted. Joseph Smith sure knew what he was doing when he made the Bible untrustworthy. Too bad people fall for that.
Rick,
Nothing Mormons say surprise me anymore. I think it’s falcon who says the more twisted the beliefs the more Mormons groove on it…..or something like that hahaha!
Here is where the Mormon Bubble comes into play again. The Kirtland SAFETY Society >Anti<-Bank. What in the world could be different about Jo's bank compared to ALL THE OTHERS that OC speaks of? Constant Readers, there are things that OC is not telling you. When Jo set up his "bank", he told them some interesting things. He said GOD would BAIL THEM OUT. Here is what Wilford Woodruff wrote,
And here is a direct prophecy of Jo’s, where he claims that all of the investors in Kirtland would become rich:
Jo Smith had no honor ANYWHERE. Smith prophesied that all of them would be rich, but that didn’t happen. Every one that took hold and secured the land contracts would be so. Parrish’s statement is verified by Woodruff. Parrish is the person who they blame it all on, not Jo. The “saints” did do everything Jo said to do. What Mormons did after it failed, was to blame a few “saints” for toppling the bank that Jo said that God told him would never be thrown down. Who appointed those officers of the Bank? Jo Smith. What did Jo claim to have that no one else did? The gift of discernment. Here are a few example of how this is supposed to work and this is long because there are so many of them that they can’t DENY that they DO HAVE THIS GIFT (If so, why doesn’t it work?):
This doesn’t sound like he is talking about bad qualities that would lead men to error and teaching false doctrine. Jeffrey R. Holland would brag about the current Mormon “prophet” and his “many miracles” in association with the gift of discernment in 1994:
Mormons constantly give instances where some few “saints” don’t live up to the expectations of Jo’s “prophecies”, therefore that is the reason they say, for their constant failures. This is a convenient way of putting a “qualifier” on each and every “prophecy” so that if they fail (as they always do) Jo (or whomever) can blame it on someone else. But all Mormons (as they constantly repeat over and over and over again) have the gift of discernment that only seems to work when they are calling people on missions, etc., etc. It NEVER works in cases like Mark Hoffmann, choosing bad men for Assistant Presidents like John C. Bennett, or a host of other instances. The fact is though, constant readers, is that Jo PROPHECIED the Bank would never fail, and would swallow up all other banks. This is what is different from Jo’s “bank” and all those other ones that OC goes on and on about. Granted, this was a bad time to start a bank in America. But to use this argument is to shoot yourself in the foot if you want to claim that Jo was any kind of a prophet WITH THE GIFT OF DISCERNMENT. He wasn’t. This is why their argument that “prophets are just fallible humans” doesn’t work. They might be, but the Holy Spirit is NOT, and Jo claimed to have it CONSTANTLY. You can’t have it both ways, folks. But such my friends, is life in the Mormon Bubble.
One other very important thing. Jo claimed that he never told anyone he was perfect but that there were no ERRORS in the revelations he taught. We constantly hear from the Mormon Bubble that these guys were masters of opinions and folklore. They never taught doctrine, except what was voted upon as “binding”. We have the conundrum of polygamy and the Priesthood ban, which NO MORMON HERE, can explain if nothing is DOCTRINE except what is scripture. I can post a plethora of authoritative statements about all kinds of subjects, but it never penetrates the Mormon Bubble, and those inside can’t explain them to those on the outside.
I guarantee you that NOT ONE MORMON will give any coherent explanation why their leaders over the years claim to have the “gift of discernment” yet can get swindled, duped, give false prophecies, make bad investments, start banks that fail, etc., etc. They can’t explain the numerous crazy statements of their leaders without stripping them of this “gift”, and the gift of the “Holy Ghost”. They would have you believe that their guidance by the Holy Spirit is ARBITRARY and FICKLE, allowing them to make all kinds of huge blunders, when their own teachings say that this is not the case.
Yes, Jo was living in the age of PRINTING, and made sure everything was written down and published. But they were counting on the world ending in 1891, and not having to worry about their own words coming back to haunt them. Well, they have. So, they are now put in a bubble and everyone is supposed to forget all about what they said, that they claimed to have the infallible SPIRIT OF GOD about them constantly to help them know EVERYTHING – like who would deceive them, if they were making the right choices, etc. etc.
They want to have it both ways, but it’s not working with anyone except those that don’t have all of the above information, or want to stay in the social club of the Mormon Bubble. Enter cautiously, investigators. And do your homework. That is why they hate this Ministry so much.
Good observation Jaxi. But Mormons don’t care about that. They would rather poison the well than admit that they have false prophets leading them. When you live in that kind of bubble, poisoning the well is a natural occurrence. For example they would rather affirm the speculation that the Hebrew God is a conflation of Canaanite Fertility gods to prove their polytheism, rather than taking the Bible for what it actually says. The teachings of Jo are more important to them than the teachings of the Bible, or Jesus, who taught that he was the Father. They will then ignore Jo’s early teachings where he changed the meaning of a passage of scripture to make that perfectly clear:
Or that early Mormons believed in the Trinity:
Jo never corrected this STATEMENT OF BELIEF, and so his later statement that he had always taught there were three gods in the godhead rings false. It may be noted also that it was just a few months AFTER THIS WAS PUBLISHED that Jo wrote his 1832 version of a claimed 1820 vision, that did NOT include TWO GODS. He then wrote Lecture V of the Lectures on Faith which affirmed God was a Spirit, Jesus was the incarnation of God, and the Holy Spirit was the MIND of God. (1835) Now you know why. It was only after 1836 when Jo learned the the Hebrew word elohim can be translated “gods” that we find Jo teaching polytheism because of his blunder in not comprehending how to translate it correctly. This would lead him to proclaim a picture of an Egyptian fertility god “God the Father sitting on His Throne”. Ouch.
You said, “The Christian God is the most important thing in our Christian lives. Now Mormons show up, with a different gospel, and say “We are the true Christians.” Why should anyone believe you?”
Indeed.
Oceancoast
Kate was right when she said you don’t believe the Bible to be the word of God! You pay lip service to Scripture but only where it supports the heretical teachings of a false prophet. Do you believe Gods word where it clearly contradicts Joseph Smith? of course you don’t!
Your defence of the ‘Kirtland bank’ that Kate mentioned really doesn’t make any sense so let’s have a look at what Smith, in his role of prophet, said about it. Warren Parrish, who left the church after the fraudulent behaviour of Smith said this.
“I have listened to him [i.e. Smith] with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the audible voice of God instructed him to establish a banking-anti banking institution, who like Aaron’s rod shall swallow up all other banks and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins.”
Wilford Woodruff, who remained true to the Church and became the fourth President, confirmed the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have a revelation concerning the bank. Under the date of January 6, 1837, he recorded the following in his journal:
“I also herd [sic] President Joseph Smith, jr., declare in the presence of F. Williams, D. Whitmer, S. Smith, W. Parrish, and others in the Deposit office that he had received that morning the word of the Lord upon the subject of the Kirtland safety society. He was alone in a room by himself and he had not only [heard] the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an audible voice. He did not tell us at that time what the Lord said upon the subject but remarked that if we would give heed to the commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well.”
Doesn’t it seem odd to you that a bank established by God should fail so miserably within a very short time leaving many people destitute?
You then say this to Kate
“Joseph Smith on the other hand actually produced some fruits that could ONLY have come by some supernatural means.”
I actually agree with you this time, by supernatural means Smith was able to deceive many intelligent people, was able to bed married women, was able to make false prophecies. “By their fruits you will know them” & that’s how we know Smith was a false prophet. “Supernatural means” does not have to involve God, have you never heard of deceptive spirits? It’s no secret that Smith was involved in the occult even though the Corporation likes to hide the fact & spiritual deception is part & parcel of the occult. Matthew 24:24
“My faith is in Jesus.. Joseph Smith is just a prophet, not the Christ. He never claimed in any way to be the Christ.”
You’re partly right, Joseph was a prophet but you left out one very important word FALSE.
The issue of NHM was discussed thoroughly in here a short time ago & Grindael completely demolished that particular theory. He clearly showed it to be a desperate attempt by apologists to find some kind of proof for the BofM no matter how far fetched it might be. There’s no need to go over it again so let’s instead look at Smiths prophetic abilities in general, keeping in mind the scriptural definition of a prophet found in Deuteronomy 18:21-22
It would take far too long to list all the prophecies made by Smith. The full list can easily be found online & amounts to around 60 & of those, 5 have been “partially” fulfilled. I have a better prophetic record than that simply by educated guesswork. So, no matter what the Corporation may claim, Scripture tells us that Smith was a FALSE prophet.
I could go on commenting on the ridiculous assertions made by LDS members for a very long time but it would all be wasted time. You accuse Kate & others of dodging questions when they have already answered you yet I’m still waiting for you & others to answers the questions I’ve asked.
I have the distinct impression they never will be answered.
Rick
Let me address a few things, as you seem to lack sufficient memory.
First, let us discuss hell, which I actually have addressed in the past, on this blog as well as others, though I am in no mood to dig through the archives to find it.
Hell is eternal. All Scriptures testify to this fact, and we have never denied it. However, this is talking about Hell itself, the location set apart for the damned souls. Hell has always been in existence and always will be in existence. That does not mean that a person’s time in Hell is eternal, only that Hell is eternal.
This is clearly shown in the book Revelation when it is declared that “death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” Hell will deliver up those spirits that are in it, and thus they will come out of hell to be judged, proving that they are not in Hell for eternity.
Now, you claim to have read the Book of Mormon, but if you can claim that it does not teach this then you either never read it or have no understanding of it. It states this same thing in 2 Nephi chapter nine as clear as day. This is also explained in Doctrine and Covenants 19.
So, don’t try to tell us what we believe or what the scriptures teach, especially those scriptures that you reject.
Now, let us speak of changes in the Book of Mormon. You seem to like this subject, as I recall you bringing it up on half a dozen occasions, generally when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. On most of those occasions I have addressed the issue, though most often in a brief manner. So, for that reason I will again be as brief as possible.
Changes from one edition of a book to another are rarely marked individually. It is common practice to simply note at the beginning of the new addition that some alterations have been made, and to give a brief reason as to why. This we have in the beginning of the Book of Mormon, under the section titled “A Brief Explanation about the Book of Mormon” we read “Some minor errors in the text have been perpetuated in past editions of the Book of Mormon. This edition contains corrections that seem appropriate to bring the material into conformity with prepublication manuscripts and early editions edited by the Prophet Joseph Smith.”
Thus your accusation that the changes are not noted is misleading. They are not marked individually, but are noted in the opening pages of the addition, which is in perfect conformity to accepted practices of editing and printing. So, unless you thing that every edition of the Bible should note every single change they have (which would be quite a lot for some) end the hypocritical attacks against us.
Lastly, let me address your carefully worded word trap that you try to pass off as an honest challenge to those of us posting here.
You say “So can you tell me everything that is found in the BoM that if I follow and believe will get me nearer to God than the Bible? And you cannot give me Bible verses that are found in the BoM since if you do that, then I might as well just ignore the BoM and read only the Bible, and just so you know, I have myself read all 4 standard works from cover to cover and I have asked this challenge as it were of other Mormons here Like, Jason, Shem and Ocean and none have replied to me on this.”
Let me first clarify your memory. You gave this same challenge a number of years ago on a different blog. On that blog I answered, and you really didn’t like my answer, as I exposed your clever trap for exactly what it is. So, your selective memory has again allowed you to be less than accurate with your accusations.
As to the challenge, as I say this is a cleverly words trap. It is designed to have no answer, which is why you feel safe in making it. Anything we say falls into one of two categories. First are those things that you already believe, and thus if we answer with those you can just say “Well, that’s in the Bible, so we don’t need the Book of Mormon.” The second group are those things that you reject, and so you will just answer with “Well, that isn’t true, so we don’t need it anyway.” Either way there is no way to answer the question, which is likely why you have so few people actually willing to be suckered by you.
However, in the spirit of honest discussion, let us attempt one, and see how you respond. Let us just consider the visit of Christ to the American Continent. Through this we learn that God is truly the God of all men and that he cares for and has dealings with all his children. From the Bible alone it would appear that he singled out only one group, or race of men, and had no dealings with any other. But through the Book of Mormon the scope of his care is made clear. The fact that he appeared too many after his resurrection, not just the Jews in Jerusalem, or even the Nephites, but to all the faithful proves that he is in fact that God of all the Earth.
Oh, and on a minor note: Most of your wonderful accounts of the first vision are not given by Joseph Smith, but are second, and sometimes even third or fourth hand accounts, and thus mean very little as evidence of anything.
Old Man
“Why don’t you respond to what I was talking about, namely the Christian definition of a missionary instead of throwing out blanket accusations?”
Personally, I find it rather intriguing that you can alter the definition of words and then claim “Well, I am using the Christian definition” and yet you want to scream your head off at us for using the “Mormon definition.”
Personally, I don’t care that this is a “Christian” blog. I am a Christian, and all your complaining and bellowing and altering of the English Language is never going to change that fact.
The simple fact is that you don’t want us to use a word that you thing sounds good, and so you try to redefine it with narrower parameters in a vain attempt to justify your desire to not apply it to us. Then you have the insulting arrogance to try and apply terms that you find derogatory to us, so that you can try to disguise your insults through your new version of English.
I have had five brothers, two sisters, and a number of in-laws serve missions. They were missionaries, commissioned by Christ to preach his gospel to the world. Your mockery of the truth, and your stubborn adherence to false doctrine, do not change that fact.
Oh, and Christ would never tell us tithing is wrong, or that a temple is not needed. In fact, I have no doubt that he has visited every one of His temples, and appreciates all of them. Rather, you will find that when Christ returns it is you that are left saying “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” Yet Christ will declare “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Oceancoast,
If you were a true Christian you would understand what I mean when I say that I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I don’t believe in Christianity because a bunch of people made it up. I believe in Christianity because it is in the Bible and it is God breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 All the evidence I need is in God’s Holy Word. I believe the Christian God of the Bible.
I noticed that the only immoral thing about Joseph Smith you chose to comment on is the bank fiasco. I want you to think about something for a minute. Imagine Joseph calls you in and sends you on a mission and while you are gone, he seduces your wife and talks her into marrying him and while you are away he’s busy sleeping with her. Now think about what this does to your wife, she’s committing adultery and she knows it, she’s struggling because the man she loves is far away and another man is using her body. Now imagine her sitting in Relief Society next to her dear friend Emma who knows nothing about what’s going on and doesn’t know that your wife slept with her husband the night before. Or what if it was your little 14 year old daughter that Joseph had his sites on? Would you hand her over for abuse? Do you have any idea what those little 14, 15, or 16 year old little girls went through? How scared they must have been in the bedroom? Do Mormons ever think this through? Why are you giving him a free pass for adultery and child abuse? This alone is enough evidence for me that Joseph Smith was not a moral man and absolutely NOT a prophet of God.
Oceancoast,
I love your explanation of Matthew Gill. He isn’t mocking the LDS church at all. He doesn’t think you are real Mormons, you’ve gone astray and your prophet doesn’t have authority from your Mormon god. Mormonism had to be restored and god did it through him. He has faithful followers who believe he is a true prophet. They hold church meetings and he leads his flock. How is he any different than the hundred or so men claiming to be THE Mormon prophet? He’s not the only one claiming to be THE true Mormons. There are so many Mormon prophets out there, which one is the true prophet? Which one should we believe? They all point to each other as being false prophets and not the one with authority of god. So who do we believe? Which prophet?
Oceancoast,
Please. Joseph didn’t sleep with any of them. I found out about Joseph Smith’s polygamy when I was 38 years old. The church taught in lessons that it started with Brigham Young and the move West. Why? That isn’t the truth. Want to know how I found out? My Grandma gave my parents a newly published hard backed huge 2 volume set of our proud Mormon family history. You see, one side of my family was with Joseph Smith from the beginning. He married 2 of my great, great, great, great, great Aunts. One was a widow with children and the other was a 30 yr. old, never been married, who was so against what Joseph proposed to her that it took her brother and Hyrum Smith to convince her to do it. Yes he slept with her. Her brother recorded it in his journal. They stayed in this brother’s upstairs bedroom as man and wife. There are journals out there, how unfortunate for you LDS who want to believe he was “chaste.” I don’t care if you disbelieve these people who were there and lived it, because dang it, it’s “not official” church stuff. Study and read the journals of Joseph Smith’s doctor. Interesting stuff. Especially the stuff about him “taking care of one of Joe’s girls.” Or in other words abortion.
I love how Mormons, ALL Mormons throw out the ” Well all over girls are aloud to get married at 12 or 14!” Does that make it moral or right? Check out the U.S. Census in Joseph Smith’s time, the average age girls married was 22. Nice try though. The way you LDS men make pedophilia moral and righteous sickens me. Yes, Joseph Smith was chaste and moral that’s why Oliver Cowdery said this:
“When he [Joseph Smith] was there we had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that what I had said was strictly true. A DIRTY, NASTY, FILTHY AFFAIR OF HIS AND FANNY ALGER’S was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deviated from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.”
(Letter written by Oliver Cowdery and recorded by his brother Warren Cowdery; see photograph in The Mormon Kingdom, Volume 1, page 27)”
Of course you will say this is hearsay. There were eyewitnesses to this uglier side of polygamy. Isn’t that what you are whining about the Bible? Eyewitnesses? Yet you don’t believe eyewitnesses in your own history or religion unless of course those witnesses are faith promoting. As for your points about Moses and others in the Bible. It’s right there in black and white for me to read myself. It’s not down played, twisted, spinned or outright lied about. The Bible tells the truth about Moses and others, you see, truth matters and there is no truth in Mormonism and the fact that you LDS can’t face the truth of your own history and leaders speaks volumes. Aren’t you exhausted trying to defend this stuff? Most importantly, where is Jesus in ANY of this?
Oceancoast
I just want to comment on a couple of points you made, Kate is well able to handle herself & it’s pretty clear that she needs no support from me but as you touched on a couple of things that I mentioned as well then I think I’ll add my own comments.
“Yes, the bank fiasco was not Immoral, it was an unfortunate set of events that occurred that year. Nearly HALF the banks in America failed that year. You pick on KSSAB because it serves you antipathy against LDS to do so.”
That is a total distortion, it may well be that half the banks in America failed that year, I really wouldn’t know but that fact has nothing to do with what Kate was talking about & you know it. I showed you the evidence, not just from someone you called a fraud in your post that now appears to have been deleted, but from non other than Wilford Woodruff the fourth president of the LDS. He said that Smiths founding of the bank was the result of a direct revelation from God. I’m wondering why you didn’t say anything about that?
“And what say you about the Biblical personalities..You give them a pass don’t you? Moses murdered an Egyptian, and then tried to hide the body.. fled town when he found out that others saw what he did.. Paul delighted in the murder of Christians. This much we know about some Biblical Personalities, but what we know from the bible is virtually NOTHING of these men’s personal lives.. It seems it has been conveniently whitewashed away.. easy to do before the day of Guttenberg Press..”
No one in here is defends the conduct of men BEFORE Christ called them & to see the change in Paul only confirms how the lives of men are changed by the power of the Spirit. You however, defend a man who, whilst claiming to be called by God actually became less & less Christ like as time went on.
I’m not sure what point you’re making when you mention the Gutenberg press so I can only assume that you’re talking about the mass distribution of reading matter. I suppose the modern equivalent would be the internet where the ‘Real history’ of the LDS can be found & is almost certainly the reason for the haemorrhaging of its membership.
I’m not going to waste any more time on this, there really is no point, the things that Kate mentioned about Joseph Smith are proven facts to anyone but LDS apologists & if he was around now there is no doubt that he would be serving a very long sentence for paedophilia. You claim to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit but your defence of a man such as Smith shows quite the opposite.
By the way, your reference to marriageable age should be taken in the context of the times, i.e. early 19 century America. The average age for marriage at that time was the low twenties & the onset of puberty was about two years later than it is now. Therefore if you dismiss Kates comments on the grounds of ‘personal sense of what’s moral’ you demonstrate your own lack of morality.
Ocean,
You continue to make excuses for your LDS faith to establish some kind of “reasonable doubt.” Is that all you got? Reasonable doubt is something criminals use to stay out of jail. Oh, and of course your spiritual witness. But I think we have established that spiritual witness can lead people to all sorts of different faiths. Even Joseph Smith was afraid of being deceived by the spirits. Maybe his fear was well placed. Why do you believe Joseph Smith? Why should anyone? Why should we believe that this new Church set up is immune to all the problems that you claim happened to the original Church started by the apostles? No one has yet given me an answer to my last question.
Old man,
“the things that Kate mentioned about Joseph Smith are proven facts to anyone but LDS apologists & if he was around now there is no doubt that he would be serving a very long sentence for paedophilia.”
Funny you should mention this. We have a Mormon prophet serving a very long sentence for pedophilia right now, right here in Utah. His name is Warren Jeffs. He’s a product of Mormonism as well. In fact his brand of Mormonism is Joseph Smith’s brand of Mormonism. I have told my family members many times that if they want to know what Joseph Smith was like just look at Warren Jeffs. My LDS family are appalled by Warren Jeffs. I don’t understand this. He’s only doing what Joseph Smith revealed. Joseph and his polygamy is one of those things that LDS have to “put on the shelf” because it’s too horrible to deal with. I had a family member say a few months ago that she couldn’t believe people would follow Warren Jeffs, they are so brainwashed! It took me awhile to pick my jaw up off the floor. The FLDS are closer to what Joseph Smith lived than the LDS, yet the LDS claim to be the only true church that Joseph started. The very interesting part about the LDS and polygamy is that they are taught by prophets such as Gordon Hinckley that it is an abomination to their god, yet turn around and practice it in their temples everyday. So which is it? An abomination or an eternal principle? I can’t seem to get an answer from the LDS.