The Priesthood of the Gods vs. the Word of God’s Power

In my last post, “‘Go’ is enough”, I talked about the awesome “word of power” of Jesus Christ. The idea behind it is huge and I hope you’ll see the big picture with me.

In Mormonism, priesthood isn’t a product of God. Rather, God himself is a product of the priesthood.

In Mormonism, priesthood is bigger than God himself: it is the system under which the genealogy of the Gods are governed and ordered and enabled.

But if God is actually and absolutely ultimate, then it doesn’t make sense to think of him beholden to a priesthood system greater than himself. It makes more sense for God to show that he can operate with effortless, raw power. With ultimate authority. With the flick of a finger. Or with, as Hebrews puts it, the “word of his power.” (1:3)

God creates, sustains, heals, exorcises (casts out spirits), forgives, renames, resurrects, authorizes, and commissions ultimately by the effortless, raw “word of his power”. Always consistent with his own character, but never beholden to a system bigger than himself.

This has implications for how we view forgiveness, the work of the Holy Spirit, the work of the local church, the preaching of the gospel — everything. It also puts the focus rightly on belief: belief in the word of God himself. Belief in the power and the person and the promises of Jesus Christ.

The issue of grace can be understood as a set of dichotomies: Earning God’s favor vs. receiving God’s free favor. Us reaching up to God vs. God reaching down to us. Us working to please God vs. God working to save men. The need for man to atone for his own sins vs. the finished work of Jesus on the cross. These dichotomies are all powerful and proper. I think it’s also helpful to think about grace as a simple issue of authority:

Does Jesus Christ have the authority, with the words of his mouth, to immediately forgive your sins?

This is liberating. You have zero good reasons to be afraid of any religious system that would keep you from this freedom.

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43 Responses to The Priesthood of the Gods vs. the Word of God’s Power

  1. Pingback: Reblogged from: Mormon Coffee blog | The Jesus Realm

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  3. falcon says:

    Grant Palmer has an interesting take on Joseph Smith’s claim to receiving the priesthood and the circumstances under which this “ordnance” was conferred.

    “When Joseph and Oliver began mentioning their angelic ordinations in late 1834 and early 1835, they were facing a credibility crisis that threatened the church’s survival. In late 1833 a group in Kirtland, Ohio, denounced Joseph Smith for ministering “under pretense of Divine Authority.” They employed D. P. Hurlbut to investigate Joseph’s past, hoping to bring him down “from the high station which he pretends to occupy.”29 Hurlbut traveled to Palmyra, New York, and collected affidavits from residents about Joseph’s early treasure seeking and other aspects of his youth. Hurlbut began a lecture tour starting in January 1834 to “numerous congregations in Chagrin, Kirtland, Mentor, and Painesville; and … [he] fired the minds of the people with much indignation against Joseph and the Church.”30 Finding disillusionment spreading among the Saints, Joseph and Sidney Rigdon began preaching against Hurlbut.31 It was under these circumstances, exacerbated by problems associated with the failure of Zion’s Camp–the paramilitary trek to assist fellow Saints in Missouri–that Joseph mentioned for the first time in public that his priesthood had “been conferred upon me by the ministering of the Angel of God.”

    So what’s the story as to how this priesthood was obtained? From another site:

    “The LDS church teaches that Joseph Smith’s “authority” to organize the true Christian church, and to officiate in its ordinances, was obtained via personal visitations of heavenly messengers John the Baptist (for the Aaronic priesthood) and the apostles Peter, James, and John (for the Melchizedek priesthood,) in which those angels ordained Smith and Oliver Cowdery.”

    So tell me really, who’s going to believe this nonsense. Well the same people who will believe that all manner of spirit beings appeared to Joseph Smith. Remember that Smith also claimed that an angel with a sword appeared to him and threatened him with death if he didn’t start taking on more wives.

    The problem is that once people swallow one of these stories, they will swallow more.

  4. falcon says:

    Has anyone ever calculated how many different spirit beings Joseph Smith claimed appeared to him? I can name the following: Jesus, God the Father, Moroni, John the Baptist, James, Peter and John and finally the angel with the sword. I’m sure there are probably more. Did the Virgin Mary appear to him?
    He claimed all of these various appearances and I think it was done without the aid of his magic rock. The magic rock allowed him, so he said, to look into the ground for buried treasure. He also said that he was given some magical spectacles with which to translate the golden tablets which he dug up from the ground. He forsook these however in favor of his magic rock which he put into a hat.
    “As pro-LDS historian Richard Bushman admits in his landmark biography on Joseph Smith (Rough Stone Rolling, 75): “the late appearance of these accounts raises the possibility of later fabrication”–even though he doesn’t draw that conclusion himself. Many thinking Mormons do raise that possibility, however. In a nutshell, they believe that there are good reasons to doubt the restoration of the priesthood actually happened in the church, despite Joseph Smith’s later descriptions of the events in his 1838 History of the Church. The actuality of those angelic events and the exclusivity of power/authority which such events would denote, are highly questionable.”

    “Were the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood under the hand of John the Baptist recorded in the church prior to 1833, it would have appeared in the Book of Commandments somewhere between Chapter IX and Chapter XII (based on the currently named date of 15 May 1829). It’s not there, nor anywhere in the BofC. Were the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood under the hand of Peter, James, and John recorded prior to 1833, it would have appeared somewhere between Chapter XII and Chapter XVII (the first of the revelations recorded on the day of the church’s organization, April 6, 1830). It’s not there, nor anywhere in the BofC.”

    ” The church’s converts heard nothing of the appearance of the ancient apostles to restore priesthood power and authority to Joseph and Oliver, were not taught that the offices in the church to which they were ordained were “priesthood” conferrals, heard nothings of two distinct orders of the priesthood in the early years of the church, per Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer and early apostle William McLellin:”

    ” I never heard that an Angel had ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Aaronic Priesthood until the year 1834[,] [183]5. or [183]6—in Ohio.… I do not believe that John the Baptist ever ordained Joseph and Oliver… (Whitmer, quoted in Early Mormon Documents, ed. Dan Vogel, 5:137).”

  5. Old man says:

    I’m convinced that Mormons don’t really understand the power of God or even what Paul is talking about in Hebrews 1:3 That I suppose is understandable as most things in Mormonism are based on the premise that their god is an exalted man & therefore can only be understood in human terms. As far as I can tell, & Falcon shows this clearly in his post, the original idea of the Priesthood was nothing more than an invention of Joseph Smith designed to set himself above his followers & the rest of Humanity, in other words to make himself ‘special’ It’s now used to show the rest of us that unless we join the cult we wont have the priesthood & will therefore lack that special power.

    Now this is just my opinion but from what I know of Mormonism, which admittedly isn’t as much as ex-Mormons, it’s all about some kind of partnership. You start on the bottom rung as a skivvy (that’s an English expression & means a servant, especially a female, who does menial work of all kinds) & by dint of hard work & obedience you start climbing the LDS ladder. Eventually when you get to be an apostle or the ‘prophet you become a junior partner. This process ultimately ends in something close to a full partnership in the Celestial Kingdom.

    That is so far removed from the teachings of Scripture in both the old & new testaments I find it incredible that anyone should actually be taken in by it although, on second thoughts, perhaps it all makes perfect sense to unregenerate mankind. Christ said we must be born again if we wish to see the Kingdom of God, Mormonism basically says, ‘that’s wrong, why be born again when you can work your way up the ladder & by making yourself worthy enough you can eventually be a god yourself.’

    To quote Aaron’s dichotomies
    “Earning God’s favor vs. receiving God’s free favor. Us reaching up to God vs. God reaching down to us. Us working to please God vs. God working to save men. The need for man to atone for his own sins vs. the finished work of Jesus on the cross.”

    The former is religion the LDS way; the latter is simply ‘Christianity’

  6. falcon says:

    Lets be blunt. Smith just made the whole thing up.
    No amount of “feeling” good about something is going to make it true. Substituting feelings and faux revelation is nothing more than a sugar high.
    I don’t know what the first step is to someone jumping onto the Joseph Smith bandwagon but I’d guess it has something to do with being taken in by his fantasy stories.
    Really, we have all these various spirit beings appearing to Smith and not only providing him with the fictitious tome the BoM but then eventually the “priesthood” which comes with “power”.
    What an ego trip. A man thinks that he’s going to have this spiritual power and will eventually become a god. So where do these notions come from? Simple! Smith made it up!

  7. jaxi says:

    Mormon priesthood also creates loyalty to the organization. It is a thing that the Mormon male derives his manhood from in a way. The women have the babies and the men have the priesthood power. If I man steps out of line within the organization he loses his ability to bless his children, baptize his children, give healing blessings to his family, and such. If he isn’t a “worthy” (there’s that word again) priesthood holder, he has to call up some other man to preform those duties. It’s embarrassing if you can’t bless or baptize your own family. The wife is upset with you for letting the family down. You are embarrassed. Your Mormon manhood is basically stripped away. It’s a big part of the culture that you don’t get to take part in any more if you don’t have it or keep it.

    That was one of the hardest things to let go of when my husband decided to leave. He couldn’t believe he was not going to baptize his kids. His dad baptized him, it was his job to baptize his children. It was heartbreaking. It’s a culture shock stepping out of Mormonism. He was upset because he believed his blessings to those that were ill had been affective. I told him they were but you have to think of it as a very sincere prayer, and not this special power. People recieve blessings to get well in other churches all the time. Mormonism doesn’t have this edge on healing people.

    The Mormon priesthood is like get initiated in the big boy club at church.

  8. falcon says:

    What great insight. It’s the old initiation rite. Smith was smart in that his hook initially to converts/prey was that they too could receive “revelation”. Folks loved that, the thought of personally receiving messages from God that had meaning. In-a-way, it was a substitute Bible.
    But the problem Smith had initially was that if anyone could receive messages from God, what good was the prophet. Everyone in the sect became a prophet.
    The Mormon church basically, according to what you wrote, holds the license. They are the examining board; the board of control.
    I’ve often wondered what women do whose husbands are nominal members but aren’t really into the priesthood gig, the temple and all the rest of the show-time stuff?

  9. Kate says:


    “I’ve often wondered what women do whose husbands are nominal members but aren’t really into the priesthood gig, the temple and all the rest of the show-time stuff?”

    We call on a brother in law or an uncle to perform all of those priesthood blessings. My children weren’t baptized or confirmed by their dad. Never received a priesthood blessing by their dad. Other men were called into the house or hospital to give a blessing when our son was ill. I don’t know how that made my husband feel. He never said anything. How it made me feel was a different story. I grew up just knowing that I was going to marry a returned missionary in the SLC temple and we were going to have 12 children. No lie, I wanted 12 kids. My mother comes from a family of 11 children. I wanted that. God had other plans for me. I went to 2 different bishops for a temple recommend (without my husband) and they both told me I was worthy but they wouldn’t give me one because if I went without my husband he would never go to the temple. I needed to get him to the temple. I was furious because I didn’t think it was my job to get my husband to the temple. It was his job to get himself worthy to go. At that time you needed permission from your husband to go without him, I had permission (which makes me laugh now). For many years I felt like I “settled” and it was very damaging to our relationship. Now I look back on that and I am ashamed of the feelings I had towards this awesome man that I am married to. I drug this poor man to temple classes 3 different times. I had the ward missionaries come in and give lessons and just talk to us. I did try to get him to the temple. Thankfully, God had other plans for us.

  10. Brewed says:

    Sometime I would love to hear both you Kate and you Jaxi give your testimonies.. Amazing when God does such great things!

  11. Rick B says:

    I have pointed this out many times, but will say it again.
    JS said, no man can see God and live without the priesthood. Yet Somehow He managed to see God and live with out it, that shows he was a false prophet.

    Also we never read any accounts in the Bible of Jesus or any apostle ever saying, In order to go out in the name of Jesus we must first give you priesthood authority to say or do anything. It simply is not in the Bible. Yet sadly LDS dont care, they believe what they want to.

  12. falcon says:

    I take it you and your husband were not sealed in the temple, right?
    I know quite a bit about Mormonism but how this Mormon priesthood actually functions and how it effects families is something that I guess only someone who’s been inside can “appreciate” (for lack of a better word).
    So I now see why the girls like to snag a returning MM. He’s programed approved by virtue of the fact that he had to jump through some hoops prior to becoming a MM.
    I think it takes a lot of courage for a man to say, “I’m not interested”. This is especially so since it’s going to effect his relationship with his wife and standing in the community.
    I’m thinking if a Mormon woman isn’t sealed with her husband in marriage in the temple it throws a wrench in the whole CK forever family program.
    So does the Mormon god of this world then assign the women and kids to another man when they get to the other side?

  13. falcon says:

    I can see where a super-achiever who believes the Joseph Smith myth would really groove on the Mormon system. First off at the very top of the ladder is becoming a god. Man what a trip! Then there’s all the stuff that can be done within the Mormon system while a person is here on earth. Some of these callings would really be ego fulfilling.
    Now if a guy has received these priesthood designations he is on the pathway to success with possibly becoming the prophet of the church a goal. I would guess that a guy would have to be really good at LDS church politics to figure out how to get to that office.
    Now for the guy who gets frustrated with the system and is a real entrepreneur, he could declare himself a prophet and start his own group. He could declare the LDS Utah sect an apostate group there by justifying his personal claims.
    “Under The Banner of Heaven” is a great book that details how some of these Mormon sects get started and the mind-set of their leaders. Mormonism breeds this sort of mentality. There are all sorts of little Joe Smith’s running around “Happy Valley”. He set quite an example for anyone who has a creative imagination, personal magnetism and a lot of ego to set out on their own.

  14. Kate says:


    “I take it you and your husband were not sealed in the temple, right?
    I know quite a bit about Mormonism but how this Mormon priesthood actually functions and how it effects families is something that I guess only someone who’s been inside can “appreciate” (for lack of a better word).”

    Not so. All worthy LDS men can hold the priesthood without going through the temple. My husband did hold the priesthood. He was ordained into the highest level of the Aaronic priesthood. He ordained my son into the Aaronic priesthood. They wanted to ordain him an elder but he wasn’t really interested at that time. You don’t have to be a temple Mormon to hold the priesthood. It is true that you have to be ordained and elder (lowest rung on the Melchizedek priesthood ladder) before you can get a temple recommend, marry in the temple, go on missions etc. A man has to be an elder before he can confirm, anoint or give blessings. My brother just baptized his son and he hasn’t been through the temple. Every male at 12 years old who is found to be worthy starts the process. It’s another ladder system inside Mormonism. It’ more about age and worthiness than the temple. Once a man is ordained an elder, he pretty much takes care of anointing and blessing his family. Higher up the ladder, they can become patriarchs, apostles, seventies etc. The point is, my husband could have accepted being ordained an elder when they asked him and he could have taken care of all the anointing and blessings of our family, without the temple.

    “So does the Mormon god of this world then assign the women and kids to another man when they get to the other side?”

    You got it. I know a woman who doesn’t want her husband for eternity and she knows the Mormon god is going to give her to a worthy man in the CK. It’s all crazy. We girls are brought up thinking the temple is so romantic and it’s pounded into our heads that we shouldn’t marry a man who has been on a mission. Don’t date anyone who isn’t going to take you through the temple. Indoctrination anyone?

  15. Kate says:

    That should be ” we shouldn’t marry a man who HAS NOT been on a mission.” Sorry.

  16. jaxi says:

    Kate said, “It’s another ladder system inside Mormonism.”

    So true. I think the priesthood was the first ladder system introduced. Then the temple ordinances were next. But those weren’t for anyone right off the bat. It was a polygamist club. Joseph Smith had to keep making things more and more elitist. He got the second anointing thing going the year before his death as yet another rung of the ladder. If he hadn’t been killed in the mob attack, who knows what other ladder systems he would have created.

  17. Kate says:

    I think I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that one had to have been a temple Mormon to “appreciate.” Now I see that “inside” may have meant just being inside the Mormon religion?

  18. falcon says:

    Yup, that’s what I meant but no problem because I always like what you write.

    I’m trying to get the “inside baseball” run-down on how the Mormon priesthood actually functions within the system and culture. I’ve had the general drift as to how it came about but I was wondering about some specifics so the information that you, Jaxi and the other former Mormons provide is very helpful, interesting and intriguing to say the least.
    I’ve been scouring different sites to come up with some information from a personal point of view and this is what one person wrote:

    “This past weekend my family had dinner with another family in the process of leaving the LDS Church. While we were speaking the other father mentioned that he had somewhat resented his priesthood office of elder. He is in his mid-forties and all of his friends are high priests.”

    “As many here know, the LDS Melchizedek priesthood consists of several offices: elder, high priest, patriarch and apostle. In order to a be a bishop, bishop’s counselor, stake president, stake president’s counselor, stake high counselor, or high priest group leader or assistant, a man must be a high priest.”

    “According to LDS Scripture and practice, all presiding offices of the church require the office of high priest (see D&C 107:10).”

    “For many men, such as my friend, failure to become a high priest is a social stigma for several reasons. First, these men are not deemed qualified for presiding responsibilities. Second, they are forced to remain in elder’s quorum meetings with younger men while their contemporaries meet separately. Third, they are seen by others as unfit for advancement.”

    “This sort of stigma for a man is very difficult. The alleged Holy Priesthood of God becomes a class system.”

    “But the basis of the need for high priests as a matter of theology is bogus, even in the LDS belief system.”

    “Allegedly, God revealed to Joseph Smith God’s requirement that any man who presides within the Church must hold the office of High Priest.”

    “As a temple worker, I ordained countless men who were acting as proxy for the dead to the office of elder, not high priest. The office of elder is all that is needed to become a god, to preside over worlds, endless spirit children and endless priesthood.”

    “So, on earth a man must be a high priest to preside, but in heaven a God need only be an elder.”

    I found this incredibly fascinating as I can see how the LDS caste system works in reality.

  19. falcon says:

    I know that Jaxi is oriented to the Eastern Orthodox sect of Christianity so I thought she might find this interesting:

    Mormons teach that in order to administer the ordinances of the Gospel, a person must have the priesthood of God.

    Catholic and Orthodox sects teach that their authority comes through apostolic succession from the time of the Apostles who obtained their authority from Jesus himself. Protestant churches who split from the Catholic tradition trace their authority back through the same succession and another facet of Protestantism teaches that all in the body of Christ, i.e. all members of the protestant church, are part of the priesthood of all believers.

    Mormons believe that they have the exclusive authority of God to act in his name on earth. They believe that soon after the deaths of the original apostles, the priesthood, or the authority of God, was lost and that after a complete apostasy from Jesus’ church that a restoration of the Gospel was necessary. On the other side of the equation Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that they preserve Tradition. At the outset of the 18th century the Eastern Patriarchs said the following:

    “We preserve the Doctrine of the Lord uncorrupted, and firmly adhere to the Faith He delivered to us, and keep it free from blemish and diminution, as a Royal Treasure, and a monument of great price, neither adding any thing, nor taking any thing from it.”

    Mormons also teach that unless a person is baptized by one holding proper authority, i.e. a priesthood holder in the Mormon Church, that person will not be able to enter heaven. Churches such as the Greek or Russian Orthodox Church are able to show their priesthood line back to the apostles. Churches that split off from the Orthodox or Roman Catholic are also able to show their priesthood pedigree. The Mormon Church has only the claim that their priesthood comes from Peter, James and John when the three supposedly visited Joseph Smith and bestowed it upon him. The Mormon priesthood is split into two main levels, the Aaronic or lesser priesthood and the Melchezedec or greater priesthood.

    The Aaronic priesthood is divided into three levels; deacon, teacher and priest. When young Mormon boys reach the age of twelve they are ordained to the priesthood and become deacons in the church. At fourteen they are ordained to the office of a teacher and at sixteen they are ordained to the office of a priest. In order to baptize one must at least be a priest. However, Christ brought an end to the Aaronic priesthood.

    OK I have a question for our former Mormon posters. I think I sort of asked it before in a round about way.
    Here goes: What level of priesthood does a man have to attain to in order to be sealed to his wife in the temple?
    It’s apparent that the whole idea of the priesthood in Mormonism is “power” and “authority”. Smith claimed that he had appearances from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John to restore the “priesthood”. May I see the hands of those who believe such a claim?
    On-the-other-hand, their are actual sects of Christianity that can trace the tradition of succession back to the apostles. So given Smith’s claim of Biblical characters appearing to him versus the traceability through tradition of the various Christian sects, I’m going with the latter.

  20. falcon says:

    The reality is that the Mormon priesthood is totally bogus. It’s not only the story of how Smith obtained it that’s a joke, it’s the whole idea of “succession” that is in error. Hay but a guy who can claim and get people to buy-into his lies, isn’t going to have many who would question him.

    The Melchezedec priesthood is also split into three levels; elder, seventy and High Priest. The office of an elder allows a person to officiate meetings in the church and also to confirm members of the church and bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost. The office of Seventy is basically defunct now but was an office of missionary work. The High Priest office is the office of officiation in the church. Bishops and higher officials in the church are High Priests.

    During Christ’s ministry he called Apostles to help him in the ministry. After the death and resurrection of Christ the Apostles set up the ministry as instructed. After the resurrection Paul was called by Christ through a vision. The original apostles were all individuals that knew Christ personally, either by knowing Him before the crucifixion or seeing Christ after the resurrection.

    In Truth Restored by Gordon B. Hinckley, prophet of the Mormon Church, in chapter three he recounts the restoration of the Mormon priesthood. “Among the doctrines taught in the ancient record was that of baptism for the remission of sins. Joseph Smith had never been baptized, for he had not become a member of any church. As he and Oliver discussed the matter, he resolved to inquire of the Lord concerning the ordinance. They retired to the seclusion of the woods along the banks of the Susquehanna River. It was the 15th day of May 1829. While they were engaged in prayer a light appeared above them, and in it a heavenly messenger descended. He announced himself to them as John, known in scripture as John the Baptist… He said he had come under the authority of Peter, James and John, Apostles of the Lord, who held the keys of the priesthood, and that he had been sent to confer upon them the priesthood of Aaron with the authority to administer in the temporal affairs of the Gospel”.
    I think we’ve already seen that Smith produced this back-dated version of how he received the priesthood several years later. This is a lot like his many versions of the founding visions he claimed to have received.
    Smith’s claim to authority is based on his manufactured stories of all sorts of spirit beings appearing to him. Like we used to say in the 60s; “Get real!”

  21. falcon says:

    The Mormons believe the Aaronic priesthood to be a lesser priesthood that cares for the temporal needs of the church and that also confers the authority to baptize. Now, John the Baptist’s Father Zachary was a priest in the Temple, but unless Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were of the tribe of Levi they were ineligible to receive the Aaronic priesthood which is reserved for the sons of Levi which included Aaron and Moses. Mormons may claim that since John’s father was a priest that John would be of the lineage of Aaron. However looking at the familial relationships as outlined in the New Testament we may find that Elizabeth was of the daughters of Aaron. The only problem is that this was from her father’s side of the family. So she herself was not a Levite as lineage is passed down through the mother according to Jewish custom. So, John the Baptist would not have been considered one of the sons of Aaron.

    Get is? “So, John the Baptist would not have been considered one of the sons of Aaron.”
    I don’t know. Was Joseph Smith Jewish? I don’t think so!
    Why do people believe this nonsense that the LDS church continues to promote? Well it’s due to ignorance. Anyone who continues to believe and participate in this bogus religion once they’ve been exposed to the truth is without excuse.

    Jesus is not only God but He is King, Prophet and Priest. He is the redeemer. He established His Church. The offices of the NT church are explained in both the Book of Ephesians and in First Corinthians. There is no priesthood. Authority comes from God. He distributes His Gifts of the Holy Spirit as He wishes not as how some man thinks it should be done.

  22. Kate says:


    “What level of priesthood does a man have to attain to in order to be sealed to his wife in the temple?”

    Elder. They have to be an elder to be sealed to their wife in the temple, take out endowments, go on missions, confirm, anoint, give blessings. So an elder can pretty much do it all except hold higher callings such as bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet.

    “As a temple worker, I ordained countless men who were acting as proxy for the dead to the office of elder, not high priest. The office of elder is all that is needed to become a god, to preside over worlds, endless spirit children and endless priesthood.”

    This is interesting. If you can do all of this as an elder, why move on? Maybe some LDS men choose to remain elders so there’s no chance of being called as bishop or stake president? Not every man wants those callings. Just a thought. 🙂

  23. Mike R says:

    Kate, Jaxi : Ah , the infamous Mormon gospel ladder of requirements in order to climb up to
    be worthy to live in God’s presence in heaven , praise God you ladies are free of this man made
    Jaxi, your assessment of Mormonism in your above post is spot on . The more secret doctrines
    that Joseph Smith created the more further his new church drifted from the church he claimed
    to have re-established —-the N.T. church established by Jesus thru His apostles 1700 years
    prior. The more doctrines that Smith amalgamated onto the gospel which Paul took to the
    people (Rom 1:16) the further his new church drifted ( apostasy) from the true gospel . So it’s
    a real blessing to hear of Mormons who have escaped the massive , elaborate church system
    with it’s myriad of laws, rules, regulations, that are heaped on the lives of good decent people
    in order for them to be accepted and gain favor with by God and even gain eternal life.

    A saving relationship with God through a personal encounter with the person of the Lord Jesus
    Christ is available outside of MormonISM. You ladies , and others here, have found that news
    to indeed be good news .

  24. LWG says:

    “What level of priesthood does a man have to attain to in order to be sealed to his wife in the temple?”
    Response: The fallacy is in the past tense word, SEALED. The ordinances are conditional, Faithfulness, true and faithful, live up to, etc. The Endowment wording is filled with conditions of obedience. No one is ever SEALED by receiving this ordinance, it is just necessary. So much pressure is put upon Mormons to comply with perfection goals, that failure is guaranteed. Joseph tried to remedy the problem with the extra secret “Second Anointing” . But, it is not available except to a very few special minority of High Priesthood holders. “Many are ENDOWED but Few are SEALED.”

  25. MaM says:

    Hey guys! Still popping in every now and then. 🙂

    Just wanted to say that jaxi is SO right. This whole deal of holding the priesthood and being worthy was actually the straw that broke the camel’s back for my husband. I had been through a miscarriage a few months ago, and before I went in for surgery, a well meaning Mormon friend asked me if I’d like her husband and dad to come give me a blessing. It was understood that my husband, because he’s considered inactive, wasn’t worthy enough to give me one himself. That was the biggest insult, and he knew that view was so wrong. He had every right to pray over his own wife, and God certainly wasn’t going to turn away his ear because he hadn’t been to the temple in 10 years or didn’t agree with the “one true church” anymore. I was more confused that she thought I’d want one anyway, knowing I’m not Mormon, but the end result was my husband realizing how backwards that I’m-worthy-and-you’re-not mentality is and finally making the decision that this system isn’t what’s found in the Bible at all. Praise God for that!

  26. Mike R says:

    MaM, good to hear from you again. Thanks for sharing what God is doing in your family !

  27. falcon says:

    I’m confused about the term “sealing”. I’ve heard it commonly referred to. Here’s off of an LDS site:
    “In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the word sealing refers to the joining together of a man and a woman and their children for eternity. This sealing can be performed only in a temple by a man who has the priesthood, or the authority from God. According to Latter-day Saint belief, the sealing means these family relationships will endure after death if the individuals live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. For Latter-day Saints, the family is essential to God’s plan as the most important unit both on earth and in eternity.”

    “When a man and a woman are married in a Mormon temple, the ceremony is referred to as a sealing. When children are later born to this couple, they are considered automatically sealed to their parents.”

    So what’s the deal on the term and meaning of the word “sealing”. Is it a term that is used in a generally fashion to describe a process or is it an “official” (term)?

  28. Old man says:


    I don’t know all the ins & outs of sealing but my ex-wife who is LDS experienced tremendous distress when she was told that unless she was sealed to our two children who had died, she would never see them again, she actually had to ask my permission for that even though I have never been a Mormon. Obviously it affected me as well, what was I to do? Go along with something that was totally false & unscriptural to make her feel better or say no & cause her even more distress? Eventually it was resolved when she was told that it was only necessary to be sealed to them if they were over the age of eight.
    I know that doesn’t answer your question but it does give an insight as to what goes on inside that organization. Sealing, as with most things Mormon is basically about control, especially the control of men over women & what I said above is particularly revealing in that context. It’s something that permeates the entire organization & is essentially a matter of ‘Do as you’re told or else’

  29. falcon says:

    I thought the line “live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ” is more than a little disingenuous. For Mormons, it’s all about living life according to the dictates of the LDS church because these folks believe that the Mormon system is paramount in their work to become a god. So if you live according to the teachings of Jesus but don’t participate in the Mormon “work” you’ll become “a god”, right? I doubt it!
    No it’s not about Jesus. It’s about serving the system because that’s how Jesus became “a god”. He followed the Mormon system some where on another planet.
    I asked several threads ago for the Mormon posters to share with us how and when Jesus became a god. They won’t say because they smelled a trap, which it is. All of Mormonism is a trap.
    So was Jesus a god before He came to earth?
    As Christians we don’t believe that Jesus is “a god”. We believe He is God. He has always been God. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end. Mormons see Jesus as one of many gods. In fact he just happened to be the one that the council of the gods choose to come to earth to redeem it. It could have been one of them.
    Jesus is God…..period. He is the King. He was a prophet and He was and is the priest. But most importantly, He is God.
    Mormons believe in a different Jesus. There’s a big difference between being just one of many gods and being God.
    I value the testimonies of our former Mormon posters who knows what this mind-set of Mormonism is like. Until this spell of deception is broken they are slaves to a false religious system.

  30. falcon says:

    Is the priesthood the most important thing in Mormonism?
    I think that the Mormon system is all about becoming a god. The priesthood is where Mormons believe they have power and authority.
    Is the Mormon system, in which the priesthood is a critical part, more important than the Mormon heavenly father? Is it more important than Jesus?
    The answer is yes. The Mormon heavenly father and the Mormon Jesus are simply products of the Mormon religious system. There are millions perhaps billions of men who have gone through this system and become gods. To-that-end, the Mormon heavenly father and Jesus are no better than any of the other gods.
    Now there is some discussion in Mormonism as to whether or not the Mormon gods “progress”. In-other-words the Mormon heavenly father and Jesus are further along the progressive system and probably can’t be caught or surpassed. However if they don’t continue at a rapid enough pace perhaps they can be passed by.
    I’m sure Mormons don’t want to think about any of this preferring to have some sort of idealized version of Mormonism. However if a Mormon really begins to question Mormonism, the cracks just become too wide. The dam will burst.

  31. Mike R says:

    Falcon, you said : ” Mormons believe in a different Jesus ” . I think Paul understood that after he
    was gone there would arise men who would claim exclusive authority to teach spiritual truths
    from God , and that people could be deceived into thinking these men’s claims were true and
    thus accept their false teachings about Jesus or God etc — 2 Cor 11:4 . This deception would be
    especially successful if these men would also talk a lot about the importance of living a moral
    lifestyle , as that could divert people’s attention . Mormon leaders are such men . When we look
    what these men have taught about Jesus we get a glimpse of what Paul feared would happen
    after he was gone . Perhaps in exposing what Mormon authorities have taught their flock
    about Jesus we should look at it this way : ” Mormons believe in a different Jehovah ” , not the
    Lord God Almighty the Bible reveals —Ex 3:14 with Jn 8:58 . Claiming to have exclusive
    insight about Jehovah , Mormon leaders have taught that He was not always Jehovah God , the
    Almighty. Instead He had a Father in heaven who thru sexual relations with one of His wives
    produced a son , their first born . This child who would later earn the right to be called Jehovah
    because of His having progressed rapidly in school thus becoming smart enough in how to do
    things like lay the foundations of the earth ( Job 38:4) . Since at one time He was’nt intelligent
    enough in how to create this earth ( Psalms 33:6; Jer 51:15) , He therefore had to be taught how
    to do so by a Deity more intelligent than He . All this schooling took place in heaven, eventually
    at long last He became worthy of the name ” Jehovah ” . He had finally become a God . When
    He came to earth He arrived in the same manner by which He was born in heaven –male/female
    relations except on earth His Father had sex with a mortal woman , a virgin until that time. This
    is the Jehovah /Jesus that some Mormon authorities have introduced . Since they claim Jesus
    personally appointed them to teach the real truth about Him in these latter days , to correct false
    doctrine about Him so that people could know who He is (Jn 17:3) , therefore they have also
    claimed to be reliable guides in such truths . But Jesus warned us in advance to be on the
    lookout for men offering claims that mimic the authority of those men who He chose long
    ago to establish His church and preach His truths . The Bible is rich in information about
    God/Jesus so that a person can come to know who He is , so we are to beware of those today
    who come claiming to have some new inside information , as it were , about God from what the
    Bible teaches . Safety lies in taking time to test new teachings —-1 Jn 4:1 ; 2Jn 7-9 .
    Why? —Matt 24:11

  32. LWG says:

    falcon, I am adressing the use of the word SEALED as understood by the common member of the Church. Also, as missionary programs are conducted and presented. “Families can be Forever” has turned into “Families are Forever” in common culture. The missing word “CAN” gets lost and forgotten. I believe the teaching is that for children must become worthy and receive the “TEMPLE ENDOWMENT” is the prime motivation for for the rank and file Mormon family. What is forgotten is the theology you present so well. The common belief is that raising boys to be missionaries and ideal mates for their daughters and living the proscribed lifestyle is the “Plan of Happiness” that the Church offers. The Sealing of children born, In the Covenent or performed as a seperate cermony in the Temple, is believed to be the proof of sucess as a Mormon attainment of the ideal. Little attention is given to the Damning “Conditional Promises” of the Endowment.

  33. jaxi says:


    Of course the LDS Church teaches that being sealed to your family is condition. The LDS Church has to keep its members loyal and obedient. If they didn’t make everything conditional than they wouldn’t be able to threaten you with your actions destroying your eternal family. The teaching keeps some in fear if they want to leave the LDS Church. Many struggle in the beginning with “what if its true?” I know I did. I felt if I was wrong I was risking my eternal marriage and my eternal family. Through my own prayer and study I got over those “conditional” LDS blessings. I have absolutely no fear of the LDS claims anymore. The truth is we will all be an eternal family without these temple sealings. All that join themselves to Christ will be one with him. We will be an eternal family with Christ. Christ has already done the work to make it so. Forever Families are unique to Mormonism, but A Forever Family is not.

  34. falcon says:

    Mike wrote about the Mormon Jesus and how he became a god.

    “He therefore had to be taught how
    to do so by a Deity more intelligent than He . All this schooling took place in heaven, eventually
    at long last He became worthy of the name ” Jehovah ” . He had finally become a God .”

    Well that’s very interesting. It would appear that the Mormon Jesus circumnavigated the process where by “men” become “gods”. There obviously is a species of gods that can morph into deity in another manner other than the one that is ordinarily followed.

    It must really be fun to be one of these Mormon apostles/prophets who can speculate about all such manner of subjects, use creative license and then claim it’s all revelation from the Mormon god or gods.
    What total idiocy and the novice Mormons fall for it all. That’s why Happy Valley has all of these latter day prophets running about claiming they are the real prophet with the real revelation.

  35. falcon says:

    So LWG,
    The “sealings” are just sort of a ticket to get into the game, right? It’s initiation into the Mormon club. Now the real work begins.
    What I’ve learned about systems like these is that there are always ways around them. I’m sure the Mormon who has a clue can figure it out. Andy Watson told me about some Mormon men he knew who said they’d “do the work” in the next life.
    The Catholic faith I grew-up in was incredibly legalistic. I hit twenty years old and was totally sick of it and I began to see the lunacy of the system. Once I lost my fear, the system couldn’t control me any more.
    Thankfully some years later I was born again but the problem I had was not coming back under the law because it’s all I had known. It took time for me to change my conditioning and get free.
    I can empathize with Jaxi and her journey.
    Now I’m not @nti-Catholic by any measure. I was for a time but I made my peace a long time ago. I don’t think that’s possible with Mormonism, for a former Mormon however. They can let go of the anger and regrets but resolving theological differences isn’t possible.

  36. LWG says:

    …and pronounced clean, or that through your faithfulness, you may become clean.
    …if you are true and faithful, the day will come.
    … whereas you are now anointed only to become such. The realization of these blessings depends upon your faithfulness.
    …inasmuch as you do not defile it.
    … and if you are true and faithful to your covenants.
    … you will be required to take upon yourselves sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God.
    …if she will covenant that from this time forth she will obey the Law of the Lord.
    … I now covenant with thee that from this time forth I will obey thy law and keep thy commandments.
    …covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary.
    … If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!
    …, and every other unholy and impure practice,
    … that you will observe and keep the Law of the Gospel.
    … have no sexual relations except with their husbands or wives
    …you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
    … If any of you have unkind feelings,
    Adam, having been “true and faithful in all things.”
    Adam, having conversed with the Lord through the Veil, “desires” now to enter his presence.

  37. Mike R says:

    Falcon, It’s incredible how the Lord God Almighty that we meet in the Bible can be taught to be
    just some spirit being that at one time was totally incapable of even knowing how to create this
    earth He now rules over as the most High God , but this is the belief about Him that has come
    from Mormon authorities . As far as Him graduating far enough to finally become Jehovah God,
    while in heaven ; this still was’nt enough , His progression was’nt done because He had to come
    to earth and do the “gospel” laws /ordinances, die, and be resurrected in order to receive a state
    ” glorified perfection ” like the other Gods in the heavens had graduated to before Him .
    All this teachings are the reason why the ” Jesus ” that Mormon authorities have introduced
    is not the true authentic one revealed in the Bible . Only the true Jesus can save a person
    from their sins because He has always been Jehovah God , He has the power (ability) to save
    all who come to Him in simple surrender . May the Mormon people take time to study their
    Bible ( one not published by their church ) and ask Jehovah to show them the truth about
    Himself .

  38. cattyjane says:

    What?? Belief is everything? Even the demons believe and shudder…and we dont reach out to God but sit and wait until he decides to reach to us? How does that work? Where is the desire to do the will of Heavenly Father in all this? Where is the “if you love me you will keep my commandments”? I dont deny his power…and that is why I try to respect the laws and authority that he has commanded. Saying a little prayer because you believe is not going to save you. Anyone can repeat a few words…in fact no where in the NT did anyone pray a little prayer to get into heaven…or believe and walk away and go about there business…but Jesus did say go and sin no more..little bit more than believing alone.

  39. jaxi says:


    “in fact no where in the NT did anyone pray a little prayer to get into heaven……or believe and walk away and go about there business…”

    This is not an accurate representation of the Christian faith.

    Christians that truly believe and love God will strive to keep the commandments. They will strive to be perfect. But they realize that their “works” do not in anyway save them. It does not matter how many good works you do because imperfect is imperfect. Only Christ’s grace and mercy saves us. His grace saves those that truly believe and those that truly believe will try their best. But this salvation isn’t after “all you can do.” No one can ever do all they can. If they could, there would be no need for a Savior.

    This is one of my favorite Orthodox prayers, “O my plenteously-merciful and all merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and become incarnate so that Thou mightest save all. And again, O Savior, save me by Thy grace, I pray thee. For is Thou Shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty; yea, Thou Who art great in compassion and ineffable in mercy. For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator, Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But my faith suffice instead of works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. And let not Satan not seize me and boast, O Word, that he hath torn me from Thy hand and fold. But whether I desire it or not, save me, O Christ my Savior, forestall me quickly, quickly, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother’s womb. Vouchsafe me, O Lord, to love Thee now as fervently as I once loved sin itself, and also to work for Thee without idleness, diligently, as I worked before for deceptive Satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.”

    If you notice the prayer is for God’s grace given based on belief and faith. But a true Christian will not believe and go on to their own ways. They die spiritually and are reborn in Christ. Their new life is to live for God’s will. The end of the prayer is a promise to work “all the days of my life.” But the work doesn’t save, the grace given because of faith is what saves. We are all sinners, no one is worthy. We can only hope that God will bless us with His Grace based on our faith, which causes works to pour from us. Please read Galations and Romans. I think it’s chapters 3,4, and 5 in Romans that cover this well.

  40. cattyjane says:

    It is not our works that earn us heaven. Of course without the sons sacrifice we will not return to live with the Father, but we,must strive to abide by the Fathers will…”be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect”. We will fall short in the end but that is where grace comes in. We have shown ourselves to be devoted to the Father and have trusted in the sacrifice of the son where we fall short. Its not the book of Mormon that declares it to those who endure to the end…its NT book of Revelations.

  41. jaxi says:


    I am in agreement with you. My faith teaches that. I am to strive to become a little Christ. I am to endure to the end. My point is that your representation of Christianity as just saying some words and getting into heaven is false. Those that believe that are incorrect and are not teaching Christian Doctrine. I am in disagreement with you on what Mormonism teaches. It is absolutely your works that get you to heaven. Can you get to life with God without your ordinances. No, you cant. Those are works. In Mormonism those that don’t follow LDS works (ordinances) don’t get life with God.

  42. cattyjane says:


    Ok. Im glad you agree with that. I know the Baptist can be pretty set on that. As far as lds trusting in works alone im not sure if thats entirely correct. Thats not how the lds missionaries explained it to me. The ordinances are part of the eternal progression in order to receive the highest heavenly reward. But without acceptance of the son/baptism/ and receiving the holy ghost nothing else can be gained.

  43. jaxi says:


    I would not say that LDS trust in works alone, but works is a requirement. And because it is an absolute requirement, it becomes a thing that works your way into heaven, because those that don’t do a certain check list, do not get life with God according to Mormonism. I do believe Christ wants everyone to be baptized. It is part of our communion with Him. By partaking of the baptismal waters we are taking part in Christs life, we are taking part of His death and resurrection. We are spiritually dying to become spiritually reborn. It is a beautiful sacrament that God wants us to take part of. We are joining our lives to Christ. But like the theif on the cross, it is not an absolute requirement. God has power to save and bring one to life with God if they did not take part in the baptismal sacrament. Should people be baptized if they have the opportunity? Yes, it is a commandment. Will salvation be taken from them if they don’t? Not necessarily. In the LDS faith, unless one accepts an LDS baptism, one does not achieve life with God. In the LDS faith it also doesn’t end there. One needs an endowment to achieve life with God. They also need a Celestial Marraige ceremony to fully inherite all that God offers. It is very much a check list of works. In the LDS faith do they have to have faith and endure also? Yes. But anyone who does not complete the checklist of works, but has true faith in God, does good works because of their faith, and endures to the end, do they get life with God? No, they didnt complete the required saving ordinances. The didnt complete the essential works.

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