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Here are some of my favorite questions in response to the supposed distortion of the Bible:
Why did Heavenly Father preserve the Book of Mormon through an apostasy (Enos 1:14-18) but not the Bible? He did not seem reluctant to work around man’s agency in the New World. Plus, Latter-day revelation clearly teaches that God cannot be thwarted by men (Alma 41:8; Ether 3:12; D&C 2:1-3; D&C 76:3).
If the Bible was altered (and is still altered) from its original form, then some of God’s word passed away, at least for a period of time. Why did Heavenly Father allow some of His word to pass away in light of His promises that His word would never pass away (Psalm 12:6-7; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 16:17; 1 Peter 1:25)?
If the Joseph Smith Translation really restored the original wording of some biblical passages, then why haven’t we found any manuscripts since that time to support the changes it contains?
Do Presidents of the Church have the same access to Heavenly Father that Joseph Smith had? If so, then why haven’t any of them completed the work of re-translating the Bible?
I have yet to hear a solid answer to any of those questions.
Kenneth,
I can’t speak for Aaron, but I imagine that most apologists would say something like this:
1) God works in mysterious ways
2) Your second question is erroneous:
“If the Bible was altered (and is still altered) from its original form, then some of God’s word passed away”
The question depends on the interpretation of “passed away”. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon was being written by prophets of god in the Americas during the “Apostasy” of the old-world church.
3) Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence
4) Current members are not faithful enough to receive additional scripture – they do not value the scripture that they already have.
Again, there may be “better” apologist answers, but even if there are, the apologist sets the bar at identifying “This evidence permits a scenario in which the theology *could* be true”, not “This evidence demonstrates that the *most probable* answer is that the theology is true.
I suspect that you will not be pleased with any answers.
Here are two verses I used from the Book of Mormon when talking to a Mormon about this issue. The bottom line is if God has the power to preserve the Book of Mormon, then He has the power to preserve the Bible as well.
Enos 1:15- Wherefore, I knowing that the Lord God was able to preserve our records, I cried unto him continually, for he had said unto me: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive in the name of Christ, ye shall receive it.
Words of Mormon 1:11- And they were handed down from king Benjamin, from generation to generation until they have fallen into my hands. And I, Mormon, pray to God that they may be preserved from this time henceforth. And I know that they will be preserved; for there are great things written upon them, out of which my people and their bretheren shall be judged at the great and last day, according to the word of God which is written.
Let me make one comment on the original blog comparison.
We do believing in reading and understanding the meanings of the original languages. This is why we have alternate Hebrew and Greek translations in the footnotes of our Bibles. It is also why many of our lesson manuals will refer back to the original language when doing so enhances our understanding of a given text.
However, God is still the final authority, and so if he has given us truth in another source then it is advisable to use that as well.
Kenneth
Let me answer you.
Q. Why did Heavenly Father preserve the Book of Mormon through an apostasy but not the Bible?
A. Because the two book have different purposes. For the Book of Mormon to fulfill its purpose it needed to be preserved by the Lord in its pure form. The Bible, serving a different purpose, was allowed to be corrupted by apostate men so that the designs of God would be fulfilled.
Q. If the Bible was altered (and is still altered) from its original form, then some of God’s word passed away, at least for a period of time. Why did Heavenly Father allow some of His word to pass away in light of His promises that His word would never pass away?
A. His word never passed away. His word has been, and will all be fulfilled. The problem here is that you are equating the record of his word with the word itself. They are two different things. God never promised that the record of his word would not alter or pass away; only that his word would not. Actually, part of his word was that the record would pass away to some extent.
Simply put, whether the record we have accurately records the words of God or not makes no difference. What he said will come to pass, and nothing will ever change that.
Q. If the Joseph Smith Translation really restored the original wording of some biblical passages, then why haven’t we found any manuscripts since that time to support the changes it contains?
A. Since the Bible says that other books of scripture exist, and yet we have never found them, should we dismiss these references as false? It is very true that not finding the evidence is not the same as there not being any. Until we find the original manuscripts that we actually written by the prophets we will never have proof of what they actually said. The earliest manuscripts we have for the Old Testament as 200 years after the original was written; the earliest for the New Testament is 50 years.
Q. Do Presidents of the Church have the same access to Heavenly Father that Joseph Smith had? If so, then why haven’t any of them completed the work of re-translating the Bible?
A. Yes, they do. However, Joseph Smith had a specific calling, and that was to restore the church. He is the prophet of the restoration, the Head of this last dispensation. While the prophets who have followed have held all the keys, none of them have been called on to restore anything. That was the calling of Joseph Smith.
Just as no prophet after Moses added or took away from the law, because it was Moses who was called to give the law. Yet other prophets had that same access to God that Moses did. In the same way the modern prophet has the same access to God, but since he is not called to restore the gospel I find it doubtful that he will complete the work of translating the Bible. That will likely wait until after the second coming.
Good point HSM,
The Book of Mormon was portrayed to be God’s backup plan, but why would he need it? Jo needed it, to bolster his credentials. Note this by Bruce R. McConkie:
To Christians, Jesus was God’s ultimate revelation, but to Mormons (through Jo Smith) it was himself (Jo Smith).
The Book of Mormon claims (Jacob 4:1-3) that “But whatsoever things we write upon anything save it be upon plates must perish and vanish away” meaning that the only way to preserve a record was by plates, but we see that this is false, it was done very effectively by the Essenes, who hid up their scrolls which survived for almost 2000 years!
The Dead Sea Scrolls are a wonderful example of how God would show that the record we have today is very accurate. This is another blow to the prescience of Jo Smith. In fact, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls (4Q536) speaks of “writ[ing] the words of God in a book which does not wear out,” and they did so, not on metal, but on scrolls, the only approved method by God for writing his word upon.
This has been a thorn in my side for a long time. Hey, lets use one of the worst translation of the Bible, then chip away at the bibles authenticity to elevate the Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price. But oh, please don’t suggest using a newer translation because they’re even worse right?
Interestingly, it’s no wonder that they’ve convinced their own membership that the Bible is just a mere pittance compared to the “inspired” word. Below is a link to a video on the reliability of the bible from the LDS Video Encyclopedia.
From LDS Video Encyclopedia
Is The Bible Reliable?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWxwfFNyVws
This is a total fabrication and not backed up by any evidence. This is pure Mormon Bubble talk. There is simply no evidence in the Bible that is was the purpose of God that he would allow his word to be corrupted by apostate men for some imaginary “design” of God. People who say this, insult God.
This is absolutely true. There are no accounts that mention a claimed 1820 vision before Jo’s first one in 1832. There is no way to prove that Jo didn’t make up the story then. Even his own mother never mentioned it, nor any “persecution” that arose out of it. The only ones “persecuting” the Smith family were Jo’s moneydigging buddies that he cut out of the gold plates deal.
Thanks for those thoughts, lasthop.
#1: I have heard that response in conversation with at least one LDS missionary. Like you suspected, I’m not satisfied. 🙂
#2: You’re right; “passed away” is not a clear-cut phrase to interpret. I could certainly be mistaken in this case.
#3: While I agree that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”, it strikes me as odd that none of the JST has been substantiated since its writing over one hundred years ago if it is indeed accurate. I’m not saying that the absence of evidence proves that the JST is illegitimate; that would be a foolish claim. I’m just saying that it makes it hard to take the JST seriously.
#4: I don’t think that the argument that God is withholding the corrected version of the Bible because of unfaithfulness within the Church fits with His behavior in the Bible. God gave the Israelites additional scripture throughout their centuries-long rebellions.
I appreciate your suggestions, too, shematwater.
#1: I second what grindael said. Could you explain how the corruption of the Bible was a blessing?
#2: (see response to lasthrop)
#3: (see response to lasthrop)
#4: I don’t think your analogy holds. Post-Moses Old Testament prophets didn’t give more law to the Israelites because Moses had given them the law in its entirety (to my knowledge). To rephrase my original question, why did God start the re-translation project only to postpone it indefinitely when Joseph Smith was killed?
I will lay out what I see are problems with this book and the Church both using it and not using it.First off, lets start with JS and HIS Bible. If you read the Articles of Faith (A of F) number 8, it says,
First problem is, The LDS do not fully trust the Bible as being both accurate or the Word of God. Now we read in the Doctrine and Covenants (D and C) Chapter 71 in the heading above that chapter.
Then we read in D and C chapter 73
Please remember, both while reading what I write now and when and if you ever talk to the LDS about this, the Heading above the Chapter 73 says, They were to finish the translation. This is very important for the reason of, many LDS have told me and do teach, that JS never finished the Translation. I talked with LDS on the FairLDS board who told me JS never finished his work of translation. This is a very serious problem, which I will cover. Lets look at D and C 76:15
And D and C 93:53
Now if you see TV, or book or web ad’s for the LDS offering a BoM or even a Bible, they NEVER offer you a JST of the Bible. And when you speak with them and they quote from the Bible, you will notice they almost never quote from the JST of the Bible. I would really have to Ask and I guess I am going to ask, If JS really is a prophet of God, The lds is the True Church and God really did tell JS to translate the Bible, Why do the LDS not use it or pass it out? I will give what I believe are some reasons why. First, JS is nothing more than a false prophet who came as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But the LDS don’t believe this, so hear are some reasons I have heard given by them over the years. When JS was killed in the jail, Brigham Young took over as the next president of the LDS church. Depending on who you talk to or believe for that matter, there was a split in the Church, we had the LDS who followed BY, and the RLDS who followed Joseph Smith’s son. The rlds at the time believed Joseph Smiths son was ment to be the next President of the LDS Church, not BY. Joseph’s Wife, Lucy, followed her son. She owned the copy of the JST of the Bible. BY wanted it, but lucy would not give it up. So finally BY dismissed it as flawed. Now the LDS claim the RLDS own the rights to the book. I have to ask these questions, If the LDS really believe the Church fell into a total apostasy, and the Bible is not accurate, and God clearly told JS to translate the Bible again, As was clearly laid out, why would God allow one group to own the copy rights on His word and therefore the Church that WAS supposed to have it and use it, see it basically fall into a some what corrputed state again? I happen to own a copy of the JST of the Bible, and when you read in the preface of the JST of the Bible, it states, (“Completion” Possibly not final)
Another question would be, if the Bible is not Correct in what it teaches and cannot fully be trusted to the Point where JS needed to “Correct” or “Retranslate” The Bible, Why does Jesus and the apostles Quote from it? Granted only the Old Testement was around when they Quoted from it, But JS Did “Correct” Portions of the OT. So why did God wait almost 2,000 years for JS to be born to correct the error, when Jesus or the Disciples could have corrected it?
in the bookEvidences and Reconciliations, pg 353-354 we read
So either the LDS author is correct and JS “corrected” the Bible, or the Author is wrong and he must have learned this from the LDS he sits under. Also as an LDS he is simply not able to just write a book and produce it with out first having it examined. Now I point this out for this reason, in the KJV of the Bible, we read in Romans 3:28
Here is something I find funny. LDS claim we must perform “Works” To help in our salvation. I claim Grace alone not works.
Now we read in the JST in Romans 3:28
We read in the JST of romans, only one word was added to that passage to supposedly correct it, the word ALONE. Houston, we have a problem. Either we are saved by grace alone, or we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. Yet God supposedly told JS to correct the Bible.
Another problem we have is this, JS claims that the book of Malachi is “correct” yet the angel Moroni quotes it differently. Joseph Smith history 1:36-39. So is the Prophet correct, or the Angel who told JS about the golden plates correct?
Another problem we read is this, the D and C, God Supposedly told JS and Sidney Rigdon to complete the JST of the Bible. But we read in the Preface to the JST it is possibly not complete. LDS over on the Fairlds board will tell you it is not complete. Where are the LDS that feel it is not complete getting there information? We read in the 1993-94 Church Almanac pg 339 under July 2 The prophet Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible
Then in the 2003 Church Almanac 536 again under July 2, it states JS finished the New Testament.
But sadly, the Prophet and President Joseph F. Smith feels it was not finished.
Then we read in the JST pg 11
There’s really no excuse for the ignorance Mormons display when it comes to the Bible. Christians might disagree on certain fine points of doctrine beyond the basics. But what we’re talking about here is doctrine. We’re talking about the historicity of the Bible and the accuracy of the Biblical text. These things are knowable.
What frustrates me is the coalition Mormons will form with atheists and very liberal “Christians” regarding the Bible. It’s funny that they want to align themselves with people who don’t hold fast to the Word of God.
The Bible is the enemy of Mormonism.
What a really curious Mormon, one who’s interested in accurate facts and evidence could do, is go into just about any Christian bookstore and get a text by a reputable Christian scholar and study it.
OOPS! That above line should be “what we’re talking about here (isn’t) doctrine.
I get passionate about something and my fingers can’t keep up with my train of thought.
I decided to dig through my past issues of Christian History to find the ones titled, “How We Go Our History” and “How We Got Our Bible”.
At the beginning of the one dealing with the Bible is “Little-known and remarkable facts about the history of the Bible”.
Here’s a couple:
*The oldest surviving manuscript of any part of the NT is a papyrus fragment containing verses from John 18; scholars estimate it was written about 125.
*Martin Luther translated the NT into German in a blitz of only 11 weeks.
*The word “Bible” comes from the Greek word for “papyrus plant” (biblos), since the leaves of that plant were used for paper.
*Before the invention of mass-production printing, the Bible’s transmission depended on the many anonymous monks who patiently copied biblical manuscripts by hand. It would have taken weeks or even months to copy a book like Isaiah. Today we know of about 2,300 Bible manuscripts copied from A.D. 300 to 1500.
falcon said, “The Bible is the enemy of Mormonism.
What a really curious Mormon, one who’s interested in accurate facts and evidence could do, is go into just about any Christian bookstore and get a text by a reputable Christian scholar and study it.”
I experienced exactly that. During the time I was a non-participating Mormon (I refuse to call myself ‘inactive’ because it was a conscious choice not to participate), I read Josh McDowell’s ‘The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict’ and I read the New Testament in a version I could apprehend (NIV). I have since commented many times that the New Testament is the gold standard anti-Mormon book, especially the Gospel of John, Romans and Galatians. But even James 2:17-18 doesn’t do for Mormonism what Mormonism claims it does.
Oops! My filtered profanity or slur used that death prefix, anti, in conjunction with the word Mormon. As the Germans say, “Opla.”
“In the late 1990s, a team of BYU scholars worked with the Community of Christ (formally RLDS) Church to gain access to the complete Joseph Smith Translation manuscripts. This book utilizes that research to provide a concise, at-a-glance reference book that teachers and students of the scriptures can use to quickly find any and every change the Prophet made to the New Testament — compared side-by-side with the corresponding verse of the King James Version. This is the most correct and handy edition of the Joseph Smith Translation available. It will enrich your study of the New Testament and enhance your understanding of the principles it teaches.”
I bought myself one of these side by side JST/KJV from Seagull Book. When I purchased mine, the man who was assisting me opened it and showed me how I could see all the “corrections” that the “Prophet” made.
The book that stuck out in my mind with the most with changes/additions was Isaiah. Pages and Pages were added and interestingly enough all these additions gave credit to what JS was saying… I don’t think thats a coincidence. It is also very interesting to note that we can verify Isaiah with the dead sea scrolls and it has been found to be remarkably accurate. Yet JST was somehow able to add many pages to it, giving credibility to the church he started. Am I the only one to see a problem with this?
Kenneth
1: I never said it was a blessing. I said it was part of the designs of God. There is a difference. When God caused the trials of Job that was not a blessing, but a trial. After he had endured the trial he was then blessed for his faithfulness. The corruption of the Bible served a purpose that God needed to have accomplished. Thus He allowed wicked and apostate men to corrupt the record. This purpose was not a blessing. It was very much a trial, and continues to be so today.
I do not pretend to know why God does what he does in all things. But I do know that he does nothing without a purpose. At this time I can give no better answer.
2. Lasthrop said it depends on how you interpret ‘pass away.’ I disagree. I think it depends on how you interpret ‘word.’ Thus I am giving a very different answer. I do not agree with his answer that the word did not pass away because it was preserved in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is just another record, and thus is not the actual word of God. His word was fulfilled in the Book of Mormon, yes. But the fact that his word will not pass away has nothing to do with whether or not the written record is preserved or corrupted.
Consider a Hypothetical: God inspires a prophet and he utters a prophecy. That prophecy is recorded, but in conflict the record is destroyed. Does this mean that the prophecy will never be fulfilled?
3. On this I do agree with Lasthrop, as there is no other answer that can be given. My faith in the JST is not determined by external evidence supporting it. It is determined by the witness of the Spirit of God. The lack of evidence thus becomes meaningless to me.
4. My analogy does hold, because Joseph Smith did restore all things, just as Moses gave the law it its entirety. Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible, and through that translation restored many truths of the gospel that had been lost. What he didn’t finish was the work of publication, which is very different. As Brewed pointed out, we now have the most complete and accurate publication of his translation that is possible to have. He restored all this, and thus the work of translating it is finished. Now the work of publication needs to be finished, and will likely not be finished until after the second coming. What we have is useful, but is not a complete work, as human scholarship cannot sort out the details of Joseph Smith’s notes and thus cannot completely finish the work.
“My faith in the JST is not determined by external evidence supporting it. It is determined by the witness of the Spirit of God. The lack of evidence thus becomes meaningless to me.”
^ Mormonism in a nutshell. This 19th century fabricated fiction does not suffer from lack of evidence, it suffers from evidence to the contrary. Would you like to hear a list of quotes from LDS apologists who agree with my assertion which is based on objective data as opposed to subjective feelings which may just as easily be from Satan deceiving you as opposed to God enlightening you? Isn’t the nature of deception that one does not know that they are deceived?
Shem,
Spoken like a true cultist. Evidence doesn’t matter it’s the witness of the spirit is all you need. Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, this inner witness of the spirit is a fabrication? That it’s the result of hope and desire and emotional manipulation.
I have a witness, as do all of the Christians here, of the Spirit and a testimony also. And it’s totally at odds with what you say you have a witness concerning. And what about the bevy of former Mormons who post here who once had the same witness you have and figured out it was bogus?
If that’s the game you want to play then you’re going to have to give credence to all of the other religions of the world that absolutely know, by an inner witness of the spirit, that they have the one truth; the real deal.
So in light of this, I think it would be a good idea for you to see if there is any confirming evidence to support what you think is an inner witness of the spirit. As it is, you’ll swallow anything if it gives you a feeling that you interpret as an inner witness of the spirit.
It’s interesting that in order for Mormonism to work, the Bible must be denegrated. And this comes from people who swear up and down that they are Christians and believe in the Bible. At the same time these same folks will accept any concoction of the cult as evidence that the BoM is an actual real history of a tribe of Jews.
Also, can anyone tell me how Joseph Smith went about “translating” the Bible and restoring things that supposedly were omitted by a dastardly plot, scheme and conspiracy? Could Joseph Smith read Greek and Hebrew? After all he was an expert at Reformed Egyptian aided by a magic rock.
No what Joseph Smith did was make up his “translation” out of his own imagination and called it revelation.
But I suppose if someone gets an “inner witness from the spirit” that it’s true, then it must be true.
Interesting thoughts yet again, shematwater. I’ll stop at this point to avoid a nit-picky back-and-forth. Until next time, be well! 🙂
See this is how these religious flim-flams work. Get people to believe that you and/or they have had a spiritual experience. The person now garners special status as being incredibly, super-duper spiritual and in a select group. Quite frankly I grow weary with it because it occurs within the Christian world also. I’ve become almost harshly skeptical and critical towards folks who make these claims. In many cases it’s harmless and a form of religious entertainment. But when people start to lead people down nefarious paths of doctrine and begin to separate them from their money, time and effort, then it’s not harmless.
Actually even if it is someone’s play-thing or hobby horse it can be dangerous because it draws the person away from legitimate endeavors and into a life of make-believe that often results in spiritual pride.
I was leading and preaching at a church service one time and this guy who had just shown up that Sunday, got up at one point in the service and announced, “All who want healing come forward now!” I had never had anything like that happen and was taken back as to what to do. After the service I confronted him, nicely but firmly, and told him “never again”. This guy had no intentions of ever submitting himself to any church authority. He likened himself, he thought, to St. Paul traveling about ministering. He was so filled with pride and angry with me that he never pulled that maneuver again there. One of the women in the congregation, however, became so enamored with the guy that he became her “teacher”.
I’m sure this guy felt all sorts of inner spiritual witness(es). He couldn’t get up much of a crowd however because he didn’t have the temperament or personal magnetism.
Once a person submits themselves to leadership like the Mormons do, they are giving themselves over to any wave of doctrine or move of the “spirit”.
I don’t think that Mormons who do this have a whole lot of confidence in themselves and their ability to study God’s Word and seek the council of people who actual do have knowledge and aren’t all that interested in gaining a following.
I am going to cover some problems I find in the JST of the Bible, then ask some questions.
First problem I find is this, why is it JS simply copied some verses word for word and claimed he corrected these verses, when in fact their is not a single change made? below are some examples.
KJV:
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
JST:
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
KJV:
Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.
JST:
Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.
KJV:
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest’s that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.
JST:
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest’s that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.
KJV:
Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.
JST:
Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.
I could go on with a ton more verses, But it even states in the JST on Page 11, Psalms 1-11 and 18-32 are exactly word for word as the KJV? How is this Correct or inspired as JS claims?
Then their are some verses in the JST where their is only one single letter added or one single word changed, and it still works out to saying the same exact thing. Examples are below. The word(s) in the JST that differ from the KJV will be put in ().
KJV:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
JST:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down (out of ) heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
KJV:
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
JST:
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, (a) hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Notice in the verse 21:17 the word (AN) has the single letter (N) dropped. this really makes no change to the word. anyone simply could argue in favor of either version that the single letter added or removed is nothing more than a typo.
Here is another verse that I simply do not see how it could be “corrected” or “inspired”
KJV:
1Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.
1Timothy 3:8 Likewise the deacons must [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.
Notice that the only change between the verses are simply the movement of the word (MUST). How is this a correction? The JST is so full of stuff like this it is not even funny.
Then we read in KJV of the Book of Revelation 22:18-19
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Now my point on these verses is this, JS did not touch these verses, so he must have felt they were translated correctly, or God must have felt they were fine. Anyway, If these verses are correct to the point they were not changed in anyway, then this poses a problem, even if LDS feel these verses only apply to the Book of Revelation and no other book, then JS did make changes to the book of Revelation. So why would God put these verses in the Book, only to later have JS turn around and “correct” the Book.
If God is really all knowing, and if He is not the author of confusion, it would stand to reason, He would have foreseen the changes that needed to be made to the book of revelation, so why would God put these two verses in the book in the first place?
Then there are 9 books JS felt were correct and never changed, both in the Old and New testemants.
If we add to that, all the verses that were not changed, all the verses that were altered, but those mean nothing in the sence of, one single letter was added or removed like with the example of (A) verses (AN), then the more serious changes that were made are really so few, it would stand to reason that the majorty of the Bible is accurate. And seeing as how the LDS feel it is not Accurate, who is correct. The Bible or JS?
Here are a few Examples of what I mean by, some books have very few to almost no changes.
The Book of 2 Corinthians is 13 Chapters long, JS only changed 9 chapters. but out of those 9 chapters 6 of those Chapters only have 1-2 verses changed, and 2 more chapters have 3 verses changed.
Then in 1st Thessalonians is 5 Chapters. JS only changed 4 chapters, but 2 chapters only have 1 verse changed, 2 Chapters have 2 verses changed, and 1 Chapter has 3 verses changed.
The one page book of Philemon has only one verse changed. And the same with the book of Jude, only one verse changed. My point on this is simply this, These changes are major enough, that JS altered the Word of God, yet most Changes are minor enough that you really have to ask, how can you say, these are corrections?
Now here are some more questions.
Brigham Young said
In the Bible are the words of life and salvation . We are believers in the Bible…its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy…We take this book, the Bible…for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith.
Discourses of BY, PG 124-125.
I think it is really confusing for BY to say what he did, Knowing that the Bible was “Corrected” by JS from a revelation of God.
Then again, BY on pg 126, goes onto say,
With us the Bible is the first book, then the book of mormon comes next.
Then many years later we read,
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints accepts the Holy Bible as the foremost of her standerd works, first among the books which have been proclaimed as her written guides in faith and Doctrine. (A of F , Talmage p.236)
Now, According to A of F number 8, the Bible not translated correctly. If this is true, then can you tell me what part is NOT TRANSLATTED Corectly?
How do you come to the conclusion you did, if you even answerd the question?
Can you give me a list of ten inaccurate translations?
Can you list any errors that are now in the Bible? if so, how did you come to that conclusion?
If God really did tell JS to “correct error” in the Bible, why are you still using a corrput version?
According to D and C 124:89
89 If he will do my will let him from henceforth hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph, and with his interest support the cause of the poor, and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth.
God says, the JST is His Holy Word. so why all the problems that are both found in the JST and the fact that BY and others (talmage), For one, seem to teach the Bible is Superior, why?
Now here are some things that the Bible teaches.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
If the Bible, Gods Holy Word, says this stuff about it, and it is incorrect, then first off, how can I trust anyone, if God allows His word to be corrputed? Then if it really is Gods word, and it is useful for correcting Error, and I cannot trust it, then how can I trust JS. If he really heard from God, to correct error, but had much error himself, both in the JST and the BoM, with the 4,000 plus changes, Who can I trust?
Rick,
You’ve done an exceptional job here but the problem is that Mormons won’t feel good about it. So if they don’t get a spiritual witness about the information, then it can’t be true, right?
I like what Jack Garcia, a former Mormon who used to post here, observed about Mormons. It was that they needed to get to the “contemplative” stage and at that point information begins to make sense to them.
The other point is what Dr. Walter Martin observed. He said, “Mormons are able to think rationally in other areas of their life but not when it comes to their religion.”
Jesus knows who His sheep are. They hear his voice and respond to it.
Rick B,
Falcon is right, you should have bore your testimony at the end and said, “and I have prayed about this thing and now I KNOW of a surety that this is in fact true!” Why use your brain when you can just float through life on the convictions of your heart?
MistakenTestimony ,
I have indeed born my testimony many times and clearly stated I have prayed about things, the problem is, Mormons only believe that if someone prays and either hears from God about something being true, if that is, the person believes what the Mormon said.
Examples, we non LDS can say all we want, we prayed about the BoM, or JS, or some verse being true or false, and unless it agree with Mormonism it is false. If we agree with them, then we clearly heard from God and are some of the smartest people around.
JW’s, Muslims, Moonies, and all the hundreds of other religious groups out their claim they prayed about what they believe and that what they believe is true since God told them so. But the Mormons dont care, these people are wrong and were not sincere in their prayers since they reject Mormonism. Thats the problem.
Also just in case some Mormon comes on and wants to challenge what I wrote for side by side comparisons on the KJV and the J.S.T. or any thing else I stated. I happen to own an official copy of the J.S.T of the Bible that I bought at a local LDS store here in town. So it is my own study and reading the book myself, and simply providing my thoughts on what was taken word for word from the J.S.T of the Bible. Anyone with a copy can open it up and simply read exactly what I wrote.
Because Mormons clearly will deny what was said, either by posting here claiming it is wrong, or
simply mumbling to themselves that it is wrong so they sear their conscience further and try and believe what they want.
I think this discussion has caused us to swerve into the real issue and that is, “Which Mormon sect is the one true (Mormon) church?”
We could use as our criteria the sect which the Mormon god choose to preserve the revelation he have to Joseph Smith when he did that magnificent “translation” of the Bible. Now wouldn’t it make sense that all the other sects would be considered apostate and not really favored by this awesome Mormon god?
So who has the original “manuscript” that the prophet Smith wrote when the Mormon god called him to correct the Bible.
Well would it surprise the reader that it isn’t the Utah based LDS church or the FLDS church or any number of Mormon sects who lay claim to the one true church distinction?
It is what was known as the RLDS church.
Smith was killed prior to the publication of the translation. At the death of Joseph Smith Jr. the manuscripts and documents pertaining to the translation were retained by his widow, Emma Smith, who would not give them to the Quorum of the Twelve although Willard Richards, apparently acting on behalf of Brigham Young, requested the new translation from her. Consequently, when Young’s followers moved to the Salt Lake Valley, they did so without the new translation of the Bible.
Following Joseph Smith’s death, John Milton Bernhisel asked permission of Emma Smith to copy the notes that were made into his own Bible. He spent much of the spring of 1845 working on this project. The LDS Church has this in its offices in Salt Lake City, but it contains less than half of the corrections and is not suitable for publication. For many years the Bernhisel Bible was the only source for LDS Church members living in the Salt Lake Valley.
In 1866, Emma Smith gave the manuscripts into the custody of the CoC church (then the RLDS), of which she was a member, and her son Joseph Smith III the prophet-president. In 1867 the CoC published the first edition of the translation and obtained a copyright for it. The CoC Church still retains the original manuscripts and publishes the Inspired Version through its publishing arm, Herald House Publishing. The copyright has expired on the 1867 edition[17] and a bound photo reproduction of that edition is published by a private concern. In 1944, the CoC Church brought out a carefully prepared “new corrected edition.”
Although the copyright has expired the CoC is in possession of that awesome, epic original work by Joseph Smith done, it should be added, without the aide of his trusty magic rock.
I went to LDS.org and looked up info that they have about the J.S.T of the Bible. This is part of what was said.
This causes me to ask these questions?
What plain and precious parts that are missing from the Bible were or are restored in the J.S.T of the Bible? From what I have shown already about how 6 books were never touched by JS, And the vast majority of the J.S.T only has one single letter changes, this show that statement is false. So can some mormon please tell us what were missing?
I have asked many times why the prophets have never restored these missing parts and I have had LDS on this blog, I believe it was Shem who said, it has been done and it was done in the form of the J.S.T. So if that is true, and this version is commanded by God and a correction of the Bible, why is it the LDS website claims it is not the official Bible. That goes back to, why use a corrupted version.
Then it does not matter if you believe these verses apply to the entire Bible or the Book of Revelation only.
If God said that, then why would He allow His word to be corrupted then have to have JS restore his word and therefore contradict Himself by going against what He said in Revelation? This shows JS is/was a false prophet.
Rick,
You sort of stole my thunder.
My question is, “If this is Joseph Smith’s revelatory work, then why doesn’t the LDS sect in Salt Lake City use it?”
Do the Mormon Missionaries carry this “version” around? Of course not. Why? Because the SLC bunch don’t really believe what they say about this Smith work. It’s a joke, but it isn’t funny.
Look, Mormons get out of this bizarre and aberrant cult and seek the Lord Jesus Christ. You don’t need someone who is promoted as a “prophet” to lead you around. There isn’t a denomination that I’d call the “true” church even in Christianity. The “true church” is peopled by all born again believers in Jesus regardless of where they attend church services.
Shematwater,
Could the scripture that references ‘his word will not pass away’ be referring to the ‘Word’ who is Jesus Christ like it refers to him in John 1 as the word? Just wondered because Jesus didnt die and he is eternal so I thought that might be the passing away that is referenced here.
Rick B,
BTW Deuteronomy also has a warning about adding to the scriptures. Should we toss out everything after that then? You might check the dates that the NT books were written because Im pretty sure Revelation wasnt the latest book…the church just needed a cliffhanger ending and hey what better way than to end it with Revelations! Haha! Geez each book in the bible is its OWN book! Just because someone squished it all together people try to apply one scripture to everything! Hello…thats called out of context and misinterpretation. That Rev. Scripture refers ONLY to the book of Revelation. The rest of the books are their own individual books of scripture.
Cattyjane,
I think you missed the point of Deut 4:2. God is telling us not to add or take away anything from us. His word is HIS word. We cannot create commandments nor take any away on our own accord. We cannot put words in God’s mouth. It would make sense to apply that too all of scripture. Do not add your own thoughts/opinions. It must be from God alone. Also as for the “word(s)” being Jesus. I don’t think this applies here. The “word” in John 1 is “logos” in singular form. The “words” used in say matthew 24:35 is Logoi, meaning multiple form of logos. It is not speaking of Jesus as a person but Jesus’s words. They are not entirely separate things though, His words are life. http://biblos.com/matthew/24-35.htm.
http://biblesuite.com/greek/logoi_3056.htm A bunch of bible verses that speak of the faithfulness and eternal nature of His words.
God makes many promises to not let us lose His truth. He encourages us to use His word/our scriptures to verify truth.
We have ancient manuscripts to verify the Bible. We have the Holy Spirit.
And everything the J.S. added in his JST are either corrections that make no real difference or are added to give credence to his claims.
Also, the LDS church doesn’t use the JST regularly.. I find that interesting because if JS really did “restore” the “plain and precious truths” why wouldn’t they stress the JST’s importance more?
The JST raises a bunch of red flags for me.
It is simply too convenient that the Bible would been inaccurate only where it contradicts Mormon theology. This is a claim made without any real evidence.
Cattyjane,
I’m guessing your either a Mormon or an atheist. I’m guessing Moron because you avoids the points I made and either cannot refute what I said about the J.S.T or you wont try since you use it and love JS.
Also as Typical LDS fashion, You ignore what I say and go after the Bible. It’s one of those, Well yes JS did this or that, but what about the Bible. Why not just reply to the question? If ou have a question that arises, so be it, but at least while asking a question address the issue at hand.
Rick B,
Haha! Thats awesome! Nice job with the immature name calling there. No im not an atheist..if I was I more than likely wouldnt be here would I. I dont use the JST and I dont claim to ‘love JS’ either…especially not the way you are saying it which is more of a ‘worship him as a god way’. I dont have an answer for your question as far as the ‘why lds dont use the jst’. That is a better question to ask someone in a leadership position which I am not. I go to the Bible because that is common ground that we both share. Im not attacking the Bible at all, im just trying to get you to see how people can take one verse and pull it out of context in order to meet their agenda for Gods word.
You know what is really sad is that im in the process of making a decision to return to
Continued from previous,
Im in the process of making a decision to return to the lds church and what I have found is that a lot of the claims that people make about the beliefs and practices of the lds church are not true or they are outdated. I have looked at other faiths and found that there are questions there that cant be answered either but they seem quite happy to tell you to take it on faith. I dont know everything about the lds church but I do know that they have the fruits of the spirit. They have love and compassion for their members and that is something that is truely lacking in other faiths. When I was a child I was baptised in the Baptist church and I can tell you it was the same experience as being dunked in a swimming pool. when I was baptised in the lds church under proper authority it was a completely different experience. It was powerful and very spiritual! I dont claim to be an lds bible scholar. I dont have all the answers that you seek. I can only tell you what I know of and what my personal experiences have been.
Cattyjane said
Please refresh my memory here will you? What name(s) did I call you? As I recall I asked you a question and that question was, are you a Mormon or an atheist. If thats name calling then I guess people are really starting to define words to fit what they want then to be.
You claim Mormons have the true fruit of the spirit, I say really? They are in line with Gal 1:8-9 another gospel. They lie, device, lead people astray. They have another jesus and god, and you fell thats real fruits. Wow. You really have no clue do you.
cattyjane
You said this
“I dont know everything about the lds church but I do know that they have the fruits of the spirit. They have love and compassion for their members and that is something that is truely lacking in other faiths.”
I’m assuming that when you talk of other faiths you mean Christian Churches so let me tell you a little story.
A long time ago, after my divorce, I lost everything I possessed in a fire, all I had was the clothes I was wearing. I wasn’t insured so quite literally I was left with nothing. My bank account was empty & I was homeless without even a change of clothing. The local church must have heard about my plight because a couple of days later they contacted me with a large bag of good clothing & a cheque which in real terms amounted to around £700 (well over thousand dollars) I knew no one from that church & I had never attended a service there so why did they do that for me? Well, they did it because they were Christians, because they had love & because they had compassion. Anyway, for you to say that those things are truly missing in other faiths is totally wrong.
Now I would like you to compare that little tale of a Christian church with this little story concerning the LDS organization. You say the LDS is full of love & compassion for the members, well, it may ‘appear’ to be that way but let’s see. I can’t tell you the full story but my Ex wife was more or less told that unless she paid 10% of her tiny pension (which is calculated to be just enough to live on) to the LDS &, unless she was sealed to OUR dead children, yes they were mine as well, she would never be able to be with them. Have you any idea of the effect that can have on a woman? Please don’t tell me about love & the LDS, they simply don’t go together, however, if you say money & the LDS then I could agree with you. I doubt if the leaders of that Mammon following organization even know what love is.
Now I have a couple of very simple question for you catty I’m genuinely curious & would appreciate an answer.
How do you know that LDS members have the fruits of the Spirit? Is it because they show you kindness or pay you a lot of attention, do they ‘love bomb’ you? There are many atheists in this world who ‘appear’ to have fruits of the Spirit; some of them to a far greater degree than many Christians or LDS members so, are they showing the fruits of the Spirit?
Finally, if The Spirit is so prevalent in the Corporation why are so many leaving & of those who leave why do the great majority become atheists?
The things I have said above are not designed to catch you out; they’re not said because, as someone in here once said, I ‘loath Mormons’ I loathe no one but I hate deception. I have told you a little of my personal life & everything I have told you is the truth. You say you are in the process of making a decision regarding returning to the LDS, well, there’s an old saying, ‘all that glitters is not gold’ Things aren’t always what they appear to be so please do a little more research before making a decision that you may one day come to regret.
Rick B,
Ok well maybe it was a typo that you didnt mean to put there. You said I was either a Mormon or Atheist and you said “im guessing Moron”.
Anyways….its not a different gospal…we are still saved by Jesus Christ sacrifice. How is it a different God? Just because I dont believe god is like an egg…the three who are one being?
Cattyjane said
Rick B,
I didnt make a mistake about your typo…or maybe I did…maybe you meant to say Moron and not Mormon. Go read it for yourself. I dont have to prove anything to you…and honestly I dont care to argue about something so trivial anyway. Doesnt everyone just believe what they want to? There is tons of scripture in the NT that show that baptism is necessary for salvation..yet I dont see anyone setting up baptist bashing blogs telling the baptist that they are misled and deceived people because they think all they have to do is believe.
Rick B,
Good luck with your move! It sounds like it will be much better for your family to get out of the bad neighborhood you live in. I hope your new place works out for you! 🙂
May I chime in here?
LDS believe in a God who was possibly once man. They believe we may become like him in knowledge and power. Have you ever read The King Follet Discourse? It is the definition of blasphemy to any bible believer. The LDS also believe in the existence of other gods. They believe there was a need for restoration. These are all beliefs that put the LDS church at odds with Christianity.
Their view of the priesthood and claims over exclusive authority can’t be true. I’ve experienced/witnessed healing, miracles, visions, and observed prophecy, and I have an intimate relationship with God. I do not have the LDS priesthood.
Not to mention the LDS controversial history. The whole polygamy, racism, lying thing is pretty messed up. But even if we ignore that, the basic doctrinal discrepancies are enough to prove it to me it is not the one true church.
I understand the draw of the LDS church. There is an uncanny sense of camaraderie and many wonderful and beautiful that people belong to it. There is a lot of pomp and circumstance giving it a very authoritative feel. There are many callings that give a person a sense of purpose. There are many wonderful things about the LDS church but these things are all about the church and have nothing to do with Jesus. A religion is not going to draw you closer to the God. A feeling does not mean that there is truth. Satan can influence feelings just as easily as the holy spirit. Intimate prayer and time reading the Bible is the only way to draw closer to the Lord. I can promise all the good qualities of the LDS church are not exclusive to the LDS church.
Cattyjane,
When you said, I dont see blog talking about Baptists and were not going after them. Here is the thing.
many of us on this blog that are not Mormon, we believe God called us to share with LDS, This is a LDS website. Some of us do talk with other cults or groups, I talk and post online to and with Atheists.
I have spoken with JW’s, Satanists and others. Now you I am guessing believe we are attacking LDS beliefs. Many LDS feel that way. Why is it LDS can say, we Christians dont know what were talking about, and it was JS who first said we are wrong and God told him so. Some LDS prophets have even said, we dont believe in the God of the Bible or they worded it as, The Jesus that is taught in and from “Traditional Christianity”
It’s ok for LDS to say these things and believe what they do, but as soon as we reply, we accused of attacking and being un-Christ Like. So tell me, why can LDS say what they do and believe what they want about us, and it’s ok, but we cannot say anything back?
Have you eve posted on, or been on the Fairlds boards? I have meet Mormons who claim the LDS on that board are so mean and vile they wont even go their. Not all LDS are like that on that board, but their are some.
Brewed,
Is this King Follet discourse something that the lds follow? I have tried other churches and they just leave me feeling more lost than before I went. I wasnt raised lds but the lds church has always been a place that I could look to for comfort and support. When I was a kid I was always curious about it and I always wanted to know more about the church. The church always seemed to show up in my life either by friends or coworkers but it always showed up at a time when I needed God to be there. If the church was so bad and so evil then why would God constantly place the church in my life at the precise moment that it was needed?
Rick B,
No I havent looked on the fairlds board but you are probley right. Im sure there are some really argumentative lds out there. Im not trying to be that person. I just came to check this site out. I thought it was an lds blog site and after I read some stuff here I realized it wasnt what I thought it was but got sucked in…and here I am.
I think people who are very strong it what they believe in can often come across as angry and Hostile. My mom is very baptist and we have had some heated discussions…now we dont talk religion at all. Its hard to agree to disagree when all of your life decisions are based on your spiritual ideas and understanding. When someone challenges those beliefs it throws everything into chaos. I think that people who dont have their beliefs challenged as often as others may not be able to empathise with the person on the receiving end of it.
cattyjane,
You said: “I wasnt raised lds but the lds church has always been a place that I could look to for comfort and support. When I was a kid I was always curious about it and I always wanted to know more about the church. The church always seemed to show up in my life either by friends or coworkers but it always showed up at a time when I needed God to be there. If the church was so bad and so evil then why would God constantly place the church in my life at the precise moment that it was needed?”
My question for you is, how do you know that this was from God and not from Satan (2Cor 11.14-15; 2Thess 2.10-11)?
Mist Test,
I think the this verse is speaking more about the anti-christ and someone who is claiming to BE god. Your right about being sure about the spirit and I see your point in 2nd Corinthians but its not like I didnt try other churches. Everytime Ive tried going to a different church things just got really confusing and I had a lot of questions and doubt. I felt like I left worse off than I was to begin with. So how can this be the answer?
Old Man,
Sorry..i just saw your reply. I am so glad that you were able to receive some help when you lost your home. Im sure that was devistating.
I dont know what you mean by love bombing. I just see that when people are in need the church is there for them. Im not a welfare case by any means…i dont receive any government assistance at all and I have a great job so I dont want you to think im looking for a handout from the church…thats not it.
Ive noticed within my circle of friends a definate difference in moral character between my lds friends and my protestant friends. My lds friends know Gods standard of living and strive to meet those standards…my other friends are quite content with their church attendance and claim to knowing christ and at the same time living with a guy they arent married to and saying its ok god knows im not perfect…what?? This kind of stuff annoys me.
cattyjane
I didn’t mean to imply that you were looking for handouts, I was simply making the point that the impression you have of Christian churches is incorrect. I received help because Christians saw that I needed help, it was nothing more than that.
You say you don’t know what love bombing is so I’ll copy this definition from another site. “The cults will love you to death while you represent a prospective convert to their group. As a member a tight family love will surround you as you faithfully promote their cause. However, when it is clear that a prospect will not join the group or a member voices doubts, create waves, or leaves the group, all love ceases.”
Now, I didn’t say that you were being love bombed but I did ask how you knew that those people had the fruits of the Spirit as I could say, with probably greater cause, that the people who helped me were showing the fruits of the Spirit, after all, they didn’t even know me. So, going back to the little story concerning my wife & the children we lost let me ask you another question. Were those LDS leaders showing the fruits of the spirit when they told her that she must pay the corporation 10% of her meagre pension in order to be with our children in their fantasy telestial kingdom? Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where we are told to ‘pay’ for our salvation? Please read through the posts on tithing in an earlier article.
By the way, if you read the works of the Swedish heretic Emanuel Swedenborg written in the latter half of the 18th century you will see where Joseph Smith got the idea of ‘Celestial & Telestial kingdoms’.
I don’t want to be long winded over this or to divert attention away from the topic but you did say “I just see that when people are in need the church is there for them.” I really do think that you should do some further research before coming to such conclusions. Are you aware for example that the Methodist church gives over 30% of its income in charitable aid whereas the LDS gives less than 1%? Are you aware that the LDS is the worlds wealthiest church per capita yet gives no more in charitable aid than a business organization such as Wallmart? My Ex has told me how her ‘church’ has helped her financially, unfortunately she fails to see that if the LDS hadn’t ‘illegally’ taken 10% of her meagre pension thereby putting her into debt, she wouldn’t have needed any help. The corporation puts people into poverty & then, by giving back a little of what they have taken, lay claim to be a charitable organization, that’s not charity, in the real world its known as fraud. Without going into any detail It’s a fact that I, a non & never will be member, have given her more help than her own church!
“My lds friends know Gods standard of living and strive to meet those standards…”
There are many ordinances laid down by the LDS that are not scriptural so to say that they are striving to meet Gods standards is not strictly true, they are in fact striving to meet the standards laid down by the LDS. One good example being the rules found in the Word of Wisdom, if you could do a little research on how they came about you might be quite shocked.
I fully understand the comparison you make between your friends & I agree with you but only up to a point, I believe they are both wrong, your Protestant friends for obvious reasons (although that’s a very complicated issue, e.g. what is marriage?) & your LDS friends because they strive to meet standards laid down by the Corporation rather than because God has laid His standards on their hearts.
Putting it all in a nutshell I believe that the Corporation has put itself between God & man; it claims to be the only genuine route to God & demands unconditional loyalty from its members, love for God has to be channelled through the LDS. Christians on the other hand realise that Christ is the only way to know God, their love & loyalty is towards Him & no other.
Cattyjane,
SoThe King Follet discourse is often used to explain the doctrine about becoming a god. It is not taught in church because it says very controversial things but I think when JS said the things contained within it, he meant them. Have you ever read it?
I understand the pretty picture that is the LDS church. 90% of my friends are LDS (I lived in Utah for a long while). They obey rules externally but a lot of them have major issues in their hearts. They are going through the motions of church, or they are very self righteous and judgmental, or they are so obsessed with following the “rules” that they literally make themselves sick. They remind me of the very religious people of Christ’s day. Not all but most are after the promises of God, not the heart of God.
I have LDS friends who did/do sleep around. Who use/have used drugs and alcohol. Who have problems with porn. Who have lived with their BF/GF before marriage. Who’ve had affairs. To be honest I’ve had more LDS friends do “bad” stuff than I have had christian friends who do “bad” stuff.
The difference? My Christian friends tend to be more open with what they are struggling with, my LDS friends tend to put on a “everything is perfect” front. That could be Utah cultural or it could just be the people I choose to hang around. My point is, your observation in your life is the opposite of the observations within mine. The behavior of people around me is not what I would base eternal truths on.
As for God putting the church in front of you when you need him.
I think that there have been many times when God has reached out to me in ways unexpected when I need him. I grew up Catholic, that church has many things wrong with it, many unbiblical principles and a very religious spirit. I would find God reaching me within it. I think God can and will reach you anywhere. Maybe he knew you would be more receptive to the LDS church? I don’t think he would want you to depend on any church to know him though. He gave us a Bible, His Holy Spirit, and His Son so that we might know him. That has to be the most important element of our faith.
I think personal experiences are an important part of faith but they cannot be what we set our faith upon entirely. Jesus tells us he is the rock, he is the corner stone, he is who we are to center our lives on. Does the LDS church really center itself on Jesus Christ? Is He the pillar of the church? I know that the church is called The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. A name does not mean much though. I have never been LDS but I know and love many LDS. From my experience the church is more about ordinances, appearances, and behavior then it is about Jesus.
Let’s not forget the “only after all you can do” doctrine.
Christ said we must have faith in him to be with God. Coming from a baptist background I am sure you are aware of this.
The LDS church says that if we obey all of the ordinances, rules, laws, and participate in all things LDS one day we will become a god. We will be like Heavenly Father in wisdom and power. We will create and populate our own planet. Our spirit children will worship us as we worship our heavenly father.
This is the same lie Satan told Adam and Eve. Gen 3:5. That we could be like God.
This is the same lie that caused Satan to fall. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. Satan wanted to be like God, he thought himself perfected and wanted God’s glory unto himself. http://www.goodseed.com/learning/article/isaiah-14-ezekiel-28/
Not only that but this doctrine of multiple gods completely contradicts God’s word.
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”
Isaiah 43:10
“‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“since indeed God is one” Romans 3:30
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17
And there are many more verses that same similar things.
Also there is overwhelming evidence that the churches prophets have not always prophesied correctly.
This may be made to sound like it is no big deal in the LDS church but according to God’s word, it means they are false and not from God. Deut 13.
Also God tells us to study his word to verify truth. Acts 17:10-1. Do LDS doctrines match up with the Bible completely? I think we have established that they don’t, in fact they contradict in places.