“The NT clearly teaches that we do not need physical temples of any sort to save us. In Hebrews we become completely aware that Jesus is the altar, the tabernacle, His flesh the veil, His heaven the holy of holies, the only High Priest over the house of God. He is our confession, there is no need to go to a temple to receive a sealing since the believers are promised by God that His Spirit, the Holy Spirit of Promise resides in us and we become sealed by Him through our belief as an eternal companion, an eternal bride, with Him our bridegroom forever. Read Eph 1: 14. Temples in the past were only for sacrificial gifts for the redemption of sin through the unblemish blood of lambs. Jesus is our last sacrifice and paid the last drop of blood for our sins. Praise Him..It is completely finished. He fulfilled everything and nailed it to the cross. If we don’t go through Jesus as our temple, we miss out on salvation.” – David Bartosiewicz
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Paul when writing to the Hebrews talks about the old covenant:
“In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one
obsolete.”(Heb.8:13) “For if that first covenant had been faultless, there
would have been no occasion to look for a second.”(Heb.8:7) Therefore,
the purpose of the law was not our obedience to it, because we cannot obey
all of it. “For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it
is written, ‘Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in
the Book of the Law, and do them.'”(Gal.3:10) This is what the Bible
states the law’s purpose was, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster
to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a
schoolmaster.” (Gal.3:24-25).
Yet LDS Prophet Fielding Smith states, “But to be exalted one must keep
the whole law.”(Doctrines of Salvation V2:6,1954)
Since keeping the Mosaic law requires building a temple, we are no longer
required to do that as per the Apostle Paul(Gal.3:23-25).
I am not sure who David Bartosiewicz is, but I love this quote.
I don’t know but it seems to me that Jesus should be enough, shouldn’t He?
This idea that a person has to go through some religious rites and rituals in order to attain a certain status after death doesn’t appeal to me.
Jesus conquered death and in so doing proved to His followers that He was the Messiah. There is no “one more thing”. There is only the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.
Mormons don’t get that because they’re into this god-maker trip, thinking that there is a process by which they too can become gods just like all of the gods before them.
It’s so ludicrous and to think they think that this is what first century Christianity was all about.
There was no apostasy, no restoration and the only falling away that there was, was when Joseph Smith fell away from the Lord God to create a religion of his own liking.
“Zeal for your house will consume me.’ So the Jews said to him, ‘What sign do you show us for doing these things?’ Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'”(John 2:18-19). Is there any Bible scripture from the new covenant (read that as New Testament) to raise, or build temples?
Aaron, thanks for sharing this article by David Bartosiewicz, it sure delineates between what
Jesus’ apostles taught about ” a temple ” compared to what Mormonism has stated about it’s
temple . The New Testament reveals that it is only through a Person —Jesus as the door
through which access to God’s home in heaven is gained —Jn 10:9 ; 14:6.
Mormon apostles on the other hand have declared that the Jesus which directs them as been
revealed to them in these last days , and they have introduced Him to everyone by way of their
teachings. Concerning why they have built temples it is taught that only through it’s secret
ceremonies can a person gain access to God’s home above and the highest blessings therein .
But gaining entrance to their temples and therefore a chance at gaining access to God’s presence
and blessings above is no simple feat . Regulations abound .
The choices then : the teachings of Jesus apostles or the teachings of Mormon apostles .
Access to God’s presence in heaven through the door who is the Jesus revealed in the New
Testament , or through the door of a man made temple which opens by meeting regulations
introduced by men who claim to be hearing from a Jesus revealed to them in these latter days.
This Jesus plus secret temple rituals gains access to God’s home above is said to be “restoration
truths” , truths long unavailable to man until restored by Mormon prophets .
May the Mormon people learn the great liberating truth that complete forgiveness for their
sins and acceptance by God to live in His home above with the fullest blessing therein is only
available through one door —-the person of Jesus Christ . Jn 14:6 ; Eph 3:12 ; Heb 7:25 ; 10:19.
Mormonism is all about the process. That’s why Mormons get so misty eyed when they gush about “the church”. Jesus is an after thought. He’s useful to a Mormon on the pathway to becoming a god.
Without the Mormon temple, there’s no place to do the rituals and rites in order to become a god. This is a bizarre religion and when Mormons insist they are Christians it shows they have no knowledge of who Jesus is and what the central message of the NT is.
Joseph Smith made this religion up from dibs and dabs of ideas he picked-up from various sources and melded them into an incoherent whole.
I dont believe everything the church has taught in the past about our god existing as a man or us having our own planet one day. From what I have been told the temple ordinances have more to do with spiritual progression than they do with salvation. I was told that if you didnt believe in Jesus first than whatever you did as far as ordinances wouldnt matter. So its still Jesus and his sacrifice being placed first.
Also…and I think ive said this before….the bible says be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. I asked about the whole becoming a God thing and it was explained that in heaven we will be made perfect. We will not BE god but our bodies and souls will be made perfect like Gods is. We were made in his image and we will be perfect when we return to live with him in heaven.
I will try not to sound rude to other faiths in my next comment but I think its funny how faiths outside of the lds faith can talk about rewards they will receive in heaven for works performed on earth in gods name but when lds talk about rewards for ordinances (or works) performed than its wrong because its works based. Its just my perspective of it all.
cattyjane, realize that Mormonism stands or falls on the claims of it’s leadership. Either their
teachings are true or not , either Jesus’ gospel/church completely disappeared and was
restored by Mormon Joseph Smith , or not . Whether you choose to not believe some of their
important teachings is irrelavent . You either follow them and submit to their authority or you
walk away . It seems you are in the position of having one foot in the door and done foot out
the door of Mormonism . My heart goes out to you as you are confused as to where to hang
your hat so to speak . Please consider getting together with one or two of those here in private
and emerse yourself in the Bible . Finding a local christian fellowship where you can bless others
and also sing to Jesus and get to know who He is in a personal way , will be the medicine for your
soul that you truly need . I will also say ( my opinion) that being on this public venue is not the
best course for you at this time considering your quandary .
Please know that I’m praying for you to make the full break from Mormonism . You can do it
God will help .
cattyjane,
I don’t want to sound rude either but they’re lying to you!
Mormonism is about attempting to be perfect in the pursuit of becoming a god. Anyone who tells you different hasn’t a clue.
So why are all of these married people being sealed to each other along with their children? It’s the forever family with daddy being a god, yes, of his own planet. You know this really irritates me when Mormons are told lies regarding the fundamental truths of Mormonism.
From an MRM article:
People can become gods.
Given its explosive nature, this tenet was rarely shared with prospective converts. Missionaries try to entice people into Mormonism gradually, and presenting the doctrine of plural gods is seldom the best way. Several contacts learned the concept from their pastors or read about it on their own, but it was new to most prospects.
“Our Father in heaven loves us so much,” I often said, parroting our lesson script, “that He provided a plan [Mormonism] for us to become like him.” I didn’t mention that Mormon godhood includes spirit procreation throughout eternity. Neither did I hint that the Mormon God was formerly a mortal man, had lived on an earth like ours, and had earned salvation through good works. However, such polytheism strips God of glory and sovereignty. No wonder the Bible condemns it so strongly. When discussing plural gods on my mission, I sidestepped Isaiah 44:8 whenever possible. “Is there a God beside me?” the passage reads. “Yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Other verses amply testify that only one God exists in the universe (Deuteronomy 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isaiah 43:10-11; 45:21-23).
When confronted with these scriptures as a missionary, I usually countered with, “Those verses mean we worship only one God, that there’s only one God to us.” And if that failed, I lied further: “The Bible isn’t clear on this subject. Fortunately, the Lord told Joseph Smith that mortals can become gods.” Smith might have had a revelation, but not from God.
http://www.mrm.org/ten-lies
@cattyjane
You are right, for the Bible talks about God:
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.”(Psalm 90:2) God has no beginning and no end, from everlasting to everlasting he is God.
cattyjane,
I think this is a pretty good article discussing the idea of “rewards” in heaven based on the works a Christian does. The author discusses a couple of schools of thought on the topic. Below is an excerpt and a link to the article.
There are basically two major schools of thought on the ‘Rewards in Heaven for works’ issue. One is the growing belief that, “varying degrees of rewards are going to be handed out in heaven for good works, according to our obedience as Christians on earth.” The other school of thought is that the only reward which believers will receive is the inheritance of eternal Life, which is Salvation.
There are many different flavors of the ‘rewards for works’ belief, but basically they usually all agree that first there will be a judgment of faith for believers, and then a judgment of works which is for both believers and unbelievers. Some distinguish these two as, ‘the white throne judgment,’ and ‘the (bema) seat judgment.’ It is at this judgment of works that they allege believers shall receive rewards or crowns for their deeds on earth. There are no real scriptures which they point to which explicitly declare these things, but they insist that the scriptures ‘implies’ them. That being said, the proponents of these works doctrines seem totally oblivious to pertinent scriptures and established truths which are incompatible with such ideas. Truths such as, ‘there is one judgment where all must stand before God.’ These appear to be ignored as they instead concentrate on obscure isolated passages, and claim that these imply two separate judgments. Nevertheless, once examined, these doctrines both are contrary to the doctrines of Grace, and to justification by faith. Because Works and Grace are intimately and inextricably tied together.
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/rewards.html
“the bible says be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.” Cattyjane, how is that working out for you? Are you feeling the despair from your everyday life by not yet being perfect? This goes back to you viewing the Messiah as a plan B after the Father observing man’s interaction with the Law. If righteousness and perfection could be obtained by the Law and works then the Messiah never needed to come, but now we have obtained a righteousness apart from the Law. Those who are in the true Christ are perfect in the Father’s eyes based on works—the work of Christ on the cross.
“I think its funny how faiths outside of the lds faith can talk about rewards they will receive in heaven for works performed on earth in gods name but when lds talk about rewards for ordinances (or works) performed than its wrong because its works based.” Believers in the true Christ are not saved because of their good works, they are set apart for good works because they are saved. Even on our very best day our works are as filthy rags before the Father. God alone is our savior and our righteousness.
Mist T,
I know that I am not perfect but I know that we are expected to follow Gods commandments regardless of the sacrifice that his son made. Christs sacrifice was not given so that we no longer were expected to obey his commands but so that where we failed to meet the requirement Christ did for us.
Mike R,
Ive asked questions from pastors before about doctrine and usually one of 3 things happen-I either dont receive an answer, It takes forever to get an answer or they dont know the answer. Its not even worth my time. I could meet with someone from here but what happens if I dont agree with what they want me to believe? Thats what ive discovered with the Christian denom…they will talk to you as long as you want to believe what they do.
“I know that I am not perfect but I know that we are expected to follow Gods commandments regardless of the sacrifice that his son made.” Cattyjane, how do you define “Gods commandments”? Do you mind telling me what is included in that definition and what is excluded?
“where we failed to meet the requirement Christ did for us.” Cattyjane, where we have failed is at 100% of everything we do. There is no one who does righteous works. We do not do our part and then God meets us the rest of the way, we are absolutely powerless to even begin to approach the Father. He comes down to us, all of us are completely unable to even take the first step on the latter to climb to God. All of our works even on our best day are completely tainted by our fallen nature, all of our works are as filthy rags and God alone is our savior and our righteousness.
cattyjane,
As I’ve explained before, I’m not into works righteousness. My righteousness, as all of us continue to emphasize, is based on what Jesus did for us on the cross. Paul explains all of this very clearly in the Book of Romans.
That Book talks about how we are all condemned whether we are in the Law or outside of it. The Law was our tutor, to show us the hopelessness of our condition.
Let me say it again, my program is based on my relationship with Jesus Christ. The closer I am to Him, the more my behavior conforms to what God expects. I gave up the guilt trips when I left the Catholic church decades ago.
It would probably be a good idea for you to take a look at the life of Martin Luther. He was seeking to confess his sins continually. Finally his spiritual adviser told him to actually go out and commit a sin so he’d have something to confess!
What we’re discussing here is basic Christian doctrine. I’m sorry you can’t get answers from some Christian ministers but to be perfectly blunt with you, you can find these answers out on your own. This is not rocket science.
Go and buy a good study Bible, read the Book of Romans and read the notes. My guess is that most of us who post here, study on our own. Another good Bible to get a hold of is the Inductive Study Bible. It contains a very good systematic way to read and study the Bible.
I’m constantly looking things up, reading, cross referencing and then drawing conclusions.
I was just reading Romans again the other night and getting my heart warmed from what is written there. I love, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” I could stop and soak in that for a long time. Jesus Christ is the foundation. It’s not temples made with human hands or rituals borrowed from the Free Masons that Mormons perform over and over again in the hope that someday they will become gods.
Mormonism is twisted.
It’s all about the Lord Jesus Christ, period!
Cattyjane,
MRM has already provided some podcasts recently that address this subject:
http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2013.04.23.IsSalvationFreeOrPurchasedPart1.mp3
http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2013.04.24.IsSalvationFreeOrPurchasedPart2.mp3
http://ia700600.us.archive.org/8/items/ViewpointOnMormonism/2013.04.25.IsSalvationFreeOrPurchasedPart3.mp3
Listen to these so that you can have a better understanding of the difference between what we are saying. Then if you have any questions please let us know.
@CattyJane
Sincerest apologies for those who should have gotten back to you but didn’t.
On the other hand, the Mormon Coffee blog is an excellent place where you can get your questions answered. You have free agency to choose what you’d like to believe.
Didn’t Jesus fulfill all of God’s requirements for celestial glory? Didn’t he achieve 100% of what was needed?
So, with that let me ask you this, does God’s requirement for us to enter the celestial kingdom change? Aren’t we also required to fulfill all of the requirements for celestial glory? What separates those in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms from the Celestial kingdom?
Thinking about these questions will help you understand the need to fulfill all of the requirements according to the LDS Authorities for the celestial kingdom.
@CattyJane
The next question to ask is if the Sacrament service can save you when you make a mistake, transgression, sin. Does God’s mercy rob God’s justice?
RikkiJ,
Good job! Now supply the Scripture references for what you wrote and that should help cattyjane out.
I’m sure the NT supplies all the details about this and the process by which someone can work their way into the CK.
Now if it’s not in the NT I’d have to start to wonder where this notion came from. Actually this process and requirements are quite different from the Gospel of Jesus Christ as written about in the NT.
So who to believe? The revelation as it appears in God’s Word, or the musings of a parade of men who are often discounted by the generations of LDS leaders that followed them.
The Salt Lake City branch of Mormonism represents a particular brand within the Mormon franchise.
I think I’d go with what the Bible teaches and jettison this idea of “continuous revelation” which to me is more like continuous confusion.
Mist Test,
Ok I listened to those links. If your argument is that believe alone is all that is needed than what do you make of all of the scripture passages in the new test that speak about baptism, obeying the commandments, and being faithful until the end. According to this interpretation of grace the church of christ doctrine would also be inaccurate because they believe that baptism is necessary. This all goes back to interpretation of scripture. Whos interpretation is correct? Either the scriptures that speak of baptism and obeying the laws and commandments are a lie or they say what they meant to say.
cattyjane,
It’s not all that complicated. There are tried and true methods of interpretation that can get to the meaning of a particular verse, for example.
Let’s take baptism for example. Is it necessary for salvation? What did Jesus say to the “good thief” on the cross? “Today you will be with me in paradise.” Did this man get baptized? No. Well how was he saved? Through faith in Jesus. It’s the same in the book of Acts when the Phillipian Jailer asks Paul and Silas, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.” He and his family were baptized but they were already saved. I should list the basic beliefs/doctrines of the orthodox Christian faith like I do periodically. Here they are.
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Trinity; One God, three Persons.
3. The deity of Christ. He is God.
4. The virgin birth of Jesus.
5. Jesus died for us. The blood atonement.
6. Jesus’ resurrection.
7. Saved by grace apart from works.
8. Jesus second coming.
9. The judgement of God.
Now here’s the key. Mormons will say, “We believe these things!” Then what needs to be asked of Mormons, “What do you believe about these things?” That’s when the aberrant teachings of Mormonism comes forth. Mormons are experts at muddying the water and especially at omitting information.
Good job, cattyjane. You are asking 2 different questions: one about sacraments and another about works. Now sacraments (such as baptism) are necessary for salvation but they are not absolutely necessary for salvation. In other words, it is not lack of baptism that condemns but rather lack of faith that condemns. If a Chirstian has faith then they will get baptised and a lack of baptism demonstartes lack of faith by insubordination. Now some Christians view baptism as a sacrament (a work that God does) and some Christians view baptism as an ordinance (a work the believer does). So then you ask, “This all goes back to interpretation of scripture. Whos interpretation is correct?” Cattyjane, it appears we are right back where we started a month ago. Have we not already had this conversation about grasping the core of the gospel and working your way out from there rather than starting from the outside and working your way in? It appears as though we have all been laboring in vain. Now regarding works you said, “If your argument is that believe alone is all that is needed than what do you make of all of the scripture passages in the new test that speak about … obeying the commandments, and being faithful until the end. … Either the scriptures that speak of … obeying the laws and commandments are a lie or they say what they meant to say.” Note that I said in my original post, “Believers in the true Christ are not saved BECAUSE of their good works, they are set apart FOR good works because they are saved.” Nobody is arguing or even suggesting that believers in the true Christ do not have works. How can you walk away from reading and listening to what has been given to you and reach the conclusion that that is what we are saying? Once again, we have works but our works are in absolutely no way credited to us as righteousness, only our faith. Our works are as filthy rags, but even then we are to do good works, but we do not look to our works. If we are looking to our works then we are not looking to the true Christ, but if we are looking to Christ then we will do good works. We do works but we do not look to them because they are abysmal even on our best day, but we do look to the work on the Cross, which is the only work that makes us righteous and also is mighty to save.
cattyjane,
I’m with MistakenTestimony on this one. It does seem that we’ve plowed this ground, planted the seeds and have been watering them. I’m beginning to wonder if the seeds are rotting in the ground. Jesus did talk about the different type of soil that seeds are planted in/on. You seem to be sincere. We appear to be making progress and then BANG we’re right back to where we were, as MT says, a month ago.
I must ask, what is prohibiting you from understanding what’s being presented? I’m not even asking that you believe it. The first two levels of learning are “knowledge” and then “understanding”. The third level is “application”.
I must admit I’ve also been asking myself, “Haven’t we covered that already?” I’m not saying these things to insult you. But here’s the thing. I’ve noticed the same phenomenon with other Mormons I’ve interacted with here over the years. Believe it or not, it always seems to center on the concept of grace and works and the role of each in salvation.
As Christians we have the matter settled in our minds. Our works are the result of our faith. We change our behavior because of our relationship with Jesus, not in order to receive a reward. I never hear Christians talk about “rewards”. We focus on honoring and praising Jesus for what He has done for us.
I can only hope and pray that you back-up a few steps and contemplate who Jesus is, what His death on the cross means, and where you’re current status is in regards to putting your faith in Him.
Are you avoiding that question of your spiritual status?
Cjane,
I have a lot to share, mostly scripture so please bear with me. First you said
Before I answer this question, let me ask you a question so I can better understand what you know and think. If you feel we must follow Gods commands as you say, what are the commands you feel you must follow?
Now you said this to Mike R
Well I think this is sad that you feel no one can answer you. But I also want to disagree with you on this issue, I meet an atheist who said pretty much the same thing as you did. I was able to answer pretty much all her questions and with great detail, and the cool thing is, at first she really did not like me, but over the years that we have been talking, we now call ourselves friends. we still keep in touch as she lives in another state, and since I am a Chef, she has a open invitation to come by my place and I will make diner for her anytime she wants. She does plan to visit at some point. Even though I answered all her questions she still rejects God and wants nothing to do with Him. So I wonder, if we or someone else answers your questions, is it more a matter of, It’s not that you dont agree, but that you still dont believe? As far as I go, I am not one of those guys that will say, I will stop talking if you dont believe what I say. If you ask me a question I will do my best to get you a reply.
You have my email address and we have talked some, but I cannot talk if you dont write and ask questions. Also I know your Busy and have been invited to write others here, so If you write me I or my wife will reply, if you dont write, I understand your busy and have others you can talk to. I have more to reply to you on some things you said, so that will come as I can get time.
Cjane,
Just to avoid any confusion on my behalf, I said to you
That will be in my next reply, just in case you were wondering why in my last post to you, you did not see any.
@falcon
Which references would you like me to provide? I’d be happy to do so. I’m not sure cattyjane has read my posts. So I’ll just wait for her response.
@CattyJane
In the meantime, can you list the references you talk about which require baptism or obeying the commandments or being faithful to the end in the Bible, and I’ll try and help you.
Rick B & Mist T,
Im answering you both because you both asked the same question about the commandments. I think if God is who he said he is and he gave a commandment than we are expected to follow it. Jesus said himself that he was not doing away with the law. In fact he gave new commandments in the NT.
Falcon & Rick B,
You guys kinda said the same thing about my belief and faith so I thought id answer you both at one time. I have to be honest this was really hard for me to answer. I have a hard time trusting a lot of the NT scripture…especially anything by paul. Im trying to get past that. I looked up some stuff on the parable of the seeds to understand what you were implying by your statement and I came across an article that broke it down really well. It gave some cultural insight and OT reference as well. I hope what you say is not true because if it is than I have no hope of ever knowing truth or having faith to believe enough because God himself will turn me over to my unbelief. Here is a small paragraph from the article.
Isaiah lived about 700 years earlier than this. He announced the judgment of God on the nation for its unbelief. That judgment would take the form of judicial hardening–they would hear but not understand, the preaching would make their spirits dull. In other words, the message would only harden their resistance to God. This judgment may seem harsh, until one realizes that the nation of Israel in 700 B.C. had had the sanctuary, the priesthood, the prophets, the scriptures for centuries. And yet in their sin and rebellion they had moved farther away from God than the people of the earlier centuries. Finally God gave them up, meaning He ceased to work in their hearts by His Spirit to reveal His truth to them. Rather, He let them alone to have their own way. And their natural way was to reject the words of the prophet. This gives us a good idea of what the psalmists and prophets meant when they said to seek the Lord while He may be found. While the prophet will be there proclaiming the message, if God is not causing it to take seed in their hearts, there will be no response of faith. And God will stop doing that if people persist in rebelling against him.
http://bible.org/seriespage/parable-sower-and-seed-matthew-131-23
I dont think I am rebelling against God. I feel that I am searching
for answers in order to understand who God is. I know it seems to be such a simple process for you guys but its not for me. There are things that dont add up to me. I dont trust well and believing like the article stated the 12 disciples believed (a belief without understanding) is hard to grasp on to.
RikkiJ,
Here is the baptism scriptures…and im not even arguing right now from the proper authority standpoint. Im just trying to point out that, to me, if the NT is accurate and without flaw it seems to say that baptism is an essential ordinance that is required for salvation.
Mark 16:16,15 -The gospel teaches that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Acts 2:38 -Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Acts 22:16 -Be baptized and wash away your sins. Romans 6:3,4; Galatians 3:26,27 -We are baptized into Christ, into His death. We have newness of life after we have been baptized (John 3:3,5). 1 Peter 3:21 -Baptism now saves us. Revelation 2:10-Faithful until death.
Cattyjane,
Are you saying that Christ has no power to save outside of an ordinance? What is more powerful the Savior or the ordinance? What is your trust in, God or the ordinance? What of those with faith in Christ but without the opportunity to be baptized? Are they lost and Christ has no power to save them? If you are going to argue from the Mormon standpoint, realize, that the work being done for the dead isn’t done by the dead. All they have to do is accept. Is it their acceptance of what Christ did for them on the cross that saves them or is it their acceptance of what someone else did for them other than God? Either way, they didnt do it, all they have to do is believe. The thief on the cross seemed to work outside the system as well.
No one is saying that Christ did not give commandments. No one is saying that he doesn’t expect us to try and follow His commandments. But no one can or has followed them perfectly. We need a Savior. We need Christ. We should strive to be Christ-like, which is perfect. But we do it because of the gratitude that we feel for Him, because we want to praise Him. We aren’t trying to earn points or golden stars. We don’t think that we achieve heaven by our own merit.
I have four kids. Sometimes they do things for me like clean up because they love me. “Mom look what we did for you. We love you so much and wanted to help you.” Then there are the times that they do the same work but say, “Mom, look what we did. Arent’t you proud of us. Now, can I have a treat.” Or “Look what I did. I cleaned up but my brother didnt.” The work both times was good. But I hate when they do it for points or to show off. I love it when the only reason is with love in their hearts. Can’t you see that it is the right belief that brings about the right kind of good works? I also like it when my kids screw up sometimes but their hearts are in the right place. They wanted to clean up for me but grabbed the wrong thing and made a bigger mess than before. I appreciate that more than the kids who tried to get a treat or show off. God cares about what is in our hearts. If our hearts are truly good, the right action will follow. But right action doesn’t always mean a good heart. The root of all of it is our faith and love for God.
RickB asked, “If you feel we must follow Gods commands as you say, what are the commands you feel you must follow?” and I asked, “Cattyjane, how do you define ‘Gods commandments’? Do you mind telling me what is included in that definition and what is excluded?”. This is the answer you provided, “I think if God is who he said he is and he gave a commandment than we are expected to follow it. Jesus said himself that he was not doing away with the law. In fact he gave new commandments in the NT.” With all due respect you did not answer our question, you gave a vague statement that could be interpreted a whole number of different ways.
RikkiJ,
I’m a little confused. I’m suppose to provide the Scripture references so you can provide the Scripture references. That’s a little redundant. Isn’t it?
cattyjane,
I don’t know. There is either a God or there isn’t a God. Jesus is either God or He isn’t. Jesus death on the cross was a vicarious death, He took our place, or it wasn’t and He didn’t. Placing faith in Jesus secures for us our salvation or it doesn’t.
That’s basically where you are at, as I see it. So what are you going to do?
I came to a place in my life, after a lot of spiritual struggle, where I believed, placed my faith in Christ. I knew, instinctively, that I needed a Savior. I could never get good enough to satisfy God’s requirements.
I changed my life i.e. my behavior to conform with my faith. When I sin, God forgives me.
Now tell me, given what I’ve just written, what part of that are you struggling with?
I don’t see how anyone can see Israel in this way. God never gave up on Israel. He tried Israel for their unbelief. But not ALL of Israel was rebellious. There were Israelites that worshiped Yahweh even in their captivity. (Dainiel, and a lot of others.) He promised he would never forsake them. For example.
And,
Jeremiah prophesied that Judah’s captivity in Babylon would last 70 years, and the scriptures testify that His prophecy was fulfilled. But even in their captivity, God did not remove himself from His people. He did not say he was going to ever totally turn his back on his people, even in their captivity or rebellion, because there was a “remnant” of believers even though as a whole Israel’s Kings were so evil that the Lord allowed them to be carried off into captivity.
God has never totally withdrawn his Spirit from those that choose to believe. Even though Israel did not have the Temple, the sanctuary, etc., God was still with those who kept the covenant in their hearts, and the story of Daniel and his friends is a classic example of this.
It’s always amazed me how people can “hear” something and then do the exact opposite especially when the information comes with a warning.
Working with kids I can tell you that there are always some in the group that will do just the opposite of what they where told to do.
I know some folks who worked with young people in a certain denomination to bring information regarding the results of becoming sexually active. Some research was done and what they discovered that the message resonated with the kids who were already heading in the direction of the message. The students who we’re going in the opposite direction got worse. Go figure!
So does that give us pause about even preaching God’s Word to those who are in open rebellion? Here’s the thing, some do turn it around while others do become more hardened and stubborn, resisting God’s call. Why is that?
I don’t know maybe it’s bad wiring, bad code, faulty genes, stubbornness, addiction or a desire to follow one’s own way.
@falcon
RikkiJ,
I’m a little confused. I’m suppose to provide the Scripture references so you can provide the Scripture references. That’s a little redundant. Isn’t it?
Let’s see what you wrote:
falcon says:
May 11, 2013 at 1:48 pm
RikkiJ,
Good job! Now supply the Scripture references for what you wrote and that should help cattyjane out.
Please help me with some clarification. Thanks.
@cattyjane
Thanks for those references. Can I start of with Mark 16:16?
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
If you take this verse on its own, it appears to have to causes and effects:
1. Believing + baptism = salvation
2. Not believing = condemnation
There is no clear talk about:
3. Believing alone = …
Therefore using this verse in and of itself can be problematic. The other question that needs to be asked is this: Why does the Bible not say:
“but whoever believes and is not baptized will be condemned.?rather it says only:
“but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
The cause of condemnation from this verse is clearly unbelief, not someone who hasn’t taken baptism.
Another question that should be asked is if salvation comes before baptism or depends on the baptism. And here it can be argued either way, however – condemnation only comes from unbelief.
Mist T and Rick B,
Just focusing on the Bible alone…these are the commandments im speaking about. I may haveissed some.
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” -Exodus 20:3, 1st Commandment “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” -Exodus 20:4, 2nd Commandment “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” -Exodus 20:7, 3rd Commandment “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.” -Exodus 20:8, 4th Commandment “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.” -Exodus 20:12, 5th Commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” -Exodus 20:13, 6th Commandment “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” -Exodus 20:14, 7th Commandment “Thou shalt not steal.” -Exodus 20:15, 8th Commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” -Exodus 20:16, 9th Commandment “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.” -Exodus 20:17, 10th Commandment “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you.” -Matthew 7:12 “‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ Jesus replied: ‘”Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'” M tth 22 36 40
@Falcon,
I know there is a God. The trinity from the standpoint you guys come from I dont get. And faith alone for salvation is tough because then you have to ask how much faith and how much belief. Also what are the key elements that this faith and belief are riding on? Is the trinity one of them? That last question is one of the questions I have never received an answer from a pastor for. Makes me wonder how much they believe in the trinity.
@jaxi,
I get what your saying about works and where you are coming from with works are done out of appreciation. The theif on the cross however cannot be used as an example for why baptism was not necessary. Jesus was not dead yet and had not risen yet. The theif was still under the jewish law and would be judged by the jewish law. Jesus was able to see into a persons heart and into their intentions. If your arguing belief alone than how does the theif fit into the NT scripture of beliving that God raised him from the dead in order to be saved? How can the theif believe that if jesus isnt dead or raised? No one even knew he was going to be raised from the dead. Not even the 12.
So, CattyJane,
Since it doesn’t appear to be that definitive, let’s go to Acts 2:38, the next Scripture reference in your list. By using all the scriptures we may arrive at a better understanding.
“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
From this verse, we can conclude a few responses:
1. Repentance + baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (for) forgiveness, and thereafter you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
2. Repentance doesn’t include baptism, because baptism is excluded outside of the listing of repentance (Repent and be baptized) [for] this forgiveness of sins [and you shall …] Interestingly, the key word here is for, which is the Greek word εἰς. In this understanding baptism would not be the cause, but the result or what follows forgiveness.
The Greek word εἰς is a preposition that either mean the cause of, or as a result of.
If you read Matt. 10:42, “εἰς is used to indicate the cause before it. So in Matt. 10:42, the person being a prophet is the “Cause” and someone should give a cup of cold water because of the person being a prophet.
If this is the case, then yes it is possible, being baptized is the “cause” of the forgiveness of sins.
However, εἰς is also used this way:
Matt. 12:41,”The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.”
The word for is used to indicate “result”. In other words, the word or εἰς results from Jonah’s preaching.
If we come back to Acts 2:38, εἰς can either mean “to cause” or “to result from”.
Therefore, εἰς can also mean, being baptized is the “result” of the forgiveness of sins.
If we follow other scripture verses, we see that baptism follows repentance, it doesn’t cause it. The word εἰς therefore needs to be carefully understood before it can be used properly.
If baptism is the cause of forgiveness, then everyone would need to be baptized every single time they sin.
I hope this enlightens you, and I’ll follow up with the remaining verses you’ve listed shortly.
RikkiJ,
When you explain the greek meaning and translation that really helps. I can see what your saying there.
Cattyjane,
I don’t believe that the people that died before Christ resurrected are judged by Jewish law and everyone after is judged by a new law. If that’s the case, the thief surely would not end up in paradise. Actually, everyone was condemned because no one lived the law perfectly. Christ redeemed those who died before Him and after Him. Therefore, I do feel it appropraite to use the example of the theif on the cross. You keep demonstrating how poorly you know Christian theology. Please don’t take that as an insult. Have you read “Mere Christianity” yet? It’s very popular and not hard to get a hold of. I think a lot of your questions will be answered really well if you just read that book, along with the New Testament. Are you still arguing from a Mormon stand point? What perspective are you arguing from?
I belong to a Christian Faith that believes the sacraments (eucharist, baptism, marriage, etc.) are VERY IMPORTANT. I am not arguing that they should be dismissed. But I also believe Christ has the power to save outside of the ordinances. There is a big difference between important and essential. Christ is who saves, not the ordiance. All judgment is His. I believe in a perfect world we would all agree on scriptural interpretations and we would all recieve the sacraments the same way and we would do all these things perfectly. But this world is not perfect. That’s why we need Christ to begin with, because we are all so NOT perfect. We NEED to be saved.
You didn’t answer my questions. Do you believe that Christ has power to save outside an ordinance? Are all those who didn’t have an opportunity for baptism damned? And if you still believe the Mormon perspective is correct, realize the dead are not doing the ordinance, they are accepting it. They are showing belief, not action. Is it their belief in Christ or in the ordiance? It still comes down to belief. Where do you stand on these issues?
Cattyjane,
“The mystery of salvation is a duet, not a solo. It is a life-time engagement with God. It has ups and downs, twists and turns, with opportunities to grow in the love of God, knowing that we can turn to Him again and again and receive forgiveness and a new birth. When we come to Christ as sinners, we have no works to offer to Him, but only faith and repentance. But once we come to Him and receive the gift of salvation, we enter into a sacred covenant to honor Him with good works. We read in Ephesians: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . . [We are] created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:8-10).
The teaching of the New Testament is that God’s grace, our free will, and our faith and good works, are intimately connected. The Holy Spirit energizes in us both faith and good works as we thirst for and seek God’s grace. Neither faith nor good works can be presented as merit before God, but only as return gifts in humility, love, and thanksgiving. Let us not forget as well the sober words of James: “Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead . . . Faith is completed by works . . . A person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:17, 22, 24). By free will, faith, and earnest labors, we work together with the grace of God in the awesome gift and mystery of salvation. As St. Paul puts it: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work His good pleasure” (Phil 2:12-13). To God Almighty, together with the Son and the Holy Spirit, be praise and worship forever. Amen.”
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved
Cattyjane,
One more link that might be helpful.
“Understanding Salvation by Faith
By Richard Wagner from Christianity For Dummies
The notion that salvation is totally of God and is the result of nothing that anyone does is hard to grasp. To many, this solution is too easy. Human nature almost demands us to tack something onto the end. And many through the ages have felt compelled to add onto the central message of Christianity. But the Bible makes it clear that salvation is sola gratia — by grace alone. As Ephesians 2:8–9 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. It is not from yourself or anything you’ve done, but the gift of God.” Salvation, therefore, is a free gift of grace from God.
When a person accepts the gift of salvation, he or she is said to be justified — made acceptable before (or made right with) God. The process of being declared righteous is called justification.
Although all Christians agree that God’s grace is what saves people, they disagree considerably over what a person’s role is in this whole process. Obviously, a Christian needs to believe in Jesus Christ, but a sticky issue has always been whether faith by itself is sufficient for salvation. The Christian Church is split on this issue.
Catholics believe that God’s gift of grace is received through faith and by partaking of the sacraments (such as being baptized, taking Communion, being confirmed in the church, and confessing sins to a priest). Baptism is particularly important and Catholics consider it a key requirement for being saved.
Most Orthodox Christians believe salvation is more of a gradual process in which humans become more and more like God as they participate with him in the work of salvation. Protestants see the act of praying the sinner’s prayer as the trigger that brings salvation into a person’s life. In contrast, Orthodox Christians typically place far less emphasis on a specific “salvation event” that starts the Christian’s life, focusing instead on what must be done over the course of a person’s life to continue on in the faith. In other words, while Protestants ask, “What can I do to be saved?”, Orthodox Christians ask, “What can I do to be most saved?”
Protestants believe in justification sola fide (by faith alone). In other words, faith in Jesus Christ is all that is needed to actually save a person. “Faith” or “belief” in this context isn’t simply an intellectual belief in God, but rather something far deeper and life changing than head knowledge. Protestants point to several verses in Acts and Romans to back up their claim:
“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31)
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (Romans 3:22)
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” (Romans 3:28)
“To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)
Protestants are very leery of the W word that Paul speaks so loudly against in the Book of Romans — works. That’s why they disagree with the Catholic link between the sacraments and salvation and the tie that Orthodox Christians place on living a Christian life with one’s salvation. Protestants consider these efforts to be works, plain and simple, since they are actions that one takes apart from belief. Although Protestants agree with Catholics and Orthodox Christians that a Christian must live out her faith (Philippians 2:12), they see the practice of “living out” as something that is separate from salvation itself — an effect of receiving salvation, rather than a necessity to receive salvation.
Putting aside all these debates and nuances, here are two key truths about salvation and faith that all Christians agree on:
Faith in Jesus Christ is essential to be saved and justified. See Ephesians 2:8–9.
True faith has a backbone. The Book of James makes it abundantly clear that a declaration of faith by itself doesn’t amount to a hill of beans if it isn’t backed up by action (James 2:14–26). In other words, if you’re gonna talk the talk, you’ve gotta walk the walk. Therefore, if someone is truly a Christian, his or her life is going to be characterized by a growing faith and, over the long haul, will live in accordance with that faith. However, recognize that this is a consequence of faith, not a condition.”
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-salvation-by-faith.html
Jaxi,
I didnt want to really dig into baptism by proper authority or baptism of the dead. I just wanted to address the importance of baptism in order to receive salvation.
I think Christ can do whatever he wants. The father gave him all authority. But I think if its a commandment than he expects us to obey. Sure he can say, “oh never mind that one” but then he would be a liar. I think that he can take peoples circumstances into consideration as well. if they absolutely could not be baptised but would have been if given the chance then that would be different. As for baptism for the dead I was told that was reserved for people who had never been given the opportunity to partake in those ordinances. Its not for people who had the opportunity and refused.
RikkiJ,
Do all of the scriptures I gave you end up with that same result on baptism when looked at from the greek language perspective?
Hello Cjane,
When you mentioned keeping the commands, I figured you were talking about the Ten Commandments. There is so much here to cover, but I will keep it to a little less. Jesus summed up the 10 commands in just the 2 commands, Love God and Love your neighbor. So If I love God, I wont want to have false Idols, or If I love my Neighbor, I wont want to steal His Cow, or car, or sleep with his wife. So I dont need to hang the ten commandments and look them over everyday and check off, I did not lie, or steal, or Lust, etc.
So the law, or the ten commandments are summed up in one word, Love. Read
Now add to this, we have Grace that we live under, we dont not have to be baptized or do works to be saved. I understand some Bible verses mention being baptized, but here is the deal. If I call upon the name of the Lord and cry out and ask God to forgive my sin and save me, and then I die 5 minutes later, am I saved? I was not baptized. So yes I am saved. But if I should go on and live and it seems I will live a some what long life, then yes I should do as the Bible says and get baptized. Now if as some people claim, we must be baptized then let me ask the question, why did Jesus not baptize people?
It stands to reason that if we must be baptized to be saved, then Jesus was not helping us by not Himself baptizing people. Now add to that the apostle Paul said
Again, if we must be baptized why then did the apostle Paul say, Jesus did not send me to baptize. Jesus is really doing us a serious disservice if He Himself did not baptize and tell the apostle I am not sending you out to baptize but to preach the gospel.
Now when it comes to doing works, here are some things the Bible says.
The Bible is clear, we are saved by Grace, we are not saved by works, because if we were/are saved by works we would as the Bible says, BOAST. We would say, Hey everyone Look at me, Look what I did to save my self. How can some one dying on their death bed do works? Or on death row? What about someone in a coma, or their are brain damaged and cannot walk or talk. I could go on, these people cannot do works, or people who are rich like Bill Gates, he has money to do lots of works, But some poor bum who is homeless, How can he compare to Bill Gates. But if we just fall upon Grace, and say, It is God that did all the work, then we are and will be equal.
Now in Timothy the Bible says,
God saved us, not according to our works, but He has works for us to do after we are saved.
Now if you want to argue we must do works, then read what Jesus says
Jesus says, People did and are doing works in HIS NAME, Yet He says, I never knew you, you worker of Evil.
I gave you this before and will give it again, The religious leaders, or you could sub in the Mormon leaders, asked Jesus, what WORK(S) Plural must we do?
Jesus replied with one work only, that is to believe upon Him.
Read this
We again are told, we are NOT JUSTIFIED by the works of the law, so do all the works you want, but they cannot save. So I know as you have before will ask again, then why do works?
read this,
They were created for us before be were even born.
Now the Bible says
They deny God in works, In other words, They are not doing the work of Love, instead they are doing works or their own ways and evil.
Lastly
See, it is not works that we have done or can do, but By God and His mercy that we were saved. Hope this helps.
cattyjane,
Time for another clarification. Are you going to wait until you understand the Trinity to put your faith and trust in Jesus for your salvation?
I’m back to, “start with Jesus”. It sounds to me like you have all of these questions that need to be answered before you can step across the line.
Here’s what you need to ask (yourself). Do I believe I am are a sinner? What do I believe is necessary for salvation i.e. eternal life?
Would you feel that it is too intrusive to answer those questions for me?
Hey Cjane,
Going along with what Falcon said,
When I was growing up, I was an atheist. I shared I believe the story with you already, I was told over and over, I am a sinner in need of a Savior. No one ever said to me Rick, You are a sinner in need of a Savior, But first before you can come to Jesus, you must be told about all the hard, deep, doctrines and fully understand them.
I honestly believe after I gave my life to the Lord and was saved, it was pretty close to 6 years or longer before I ever heard of the trinity. If I gave my life to Jesus and died that night, I was saved, not, I gave my life to Jesus, but am still damned because I had no clue as to who or what the trinity is. As far as I am concerned, if you ask questions I will share, because even if you never believe, someone will benefit from the answers. But I am wondering, are you really serious about wanting to know? Or will you go to your grave and never come to Jesus because you refuse to believe and be saved because you have all these excuses?
@Falcon,
I know that ive broken Gods laws…and I know that if I was judged according to how ive kept the law alone than I would fail…so I know that I have to accept the sacrifice that the son made. And yes I feel like I need my questions answered before because im tired of this back and forth thing between what I believe. I want to have facts and reasons to back up why I made the decision I did. I have to know that this is real and not some made up opinion of what the scriptures say.
@RickB,
What excuses do you think im using? When you were saved did you believe that Jesus was 100% God? How can I cross the line, so to speak, but I cant explain what I believe or why.
Cjane,
When I say excuses, As others have said before, we have explained all this before.
It just seems to me, salvation is simple, Believe Jesus died and you will be saved. How hard is that? Yet no matter what scripture we give or evidence we provided, It seems to never be enough.
What exactly, in your mind will be enough evidence? I know people, Close Friends, family and people in general, that even if God himself came to them here and Now and was able to prove it to them, they would reject Him and not care. So when is enough evidence really enough, and what evidence would be enough?
Cattyjane,
You started this chain when you said the following: “I will try not to sound rude to other faiths in my next comment but I think its funny how faiths outside of the lds faith can talk about rewards they will receive in heaven for works performed on earth in gods name but when lds talk about rewards for ordinances (or works) performed than its wrong because its works based. Its just my perspective of it all.”
You seem sincere to me but confused unfortunately. After hearing everything that we have said, do you now understand how none of us would agree with your assessment of Christianity being a faith that “talk[s] about rewards they will receive in heaven for works performed on earth in gods name”?
@CattyJane
RikkiJ,
Do all of the scriptures I gave you end up with that same result on baptism when looked at from the greek language perspective?
I’m going to do just that overnight. I think your questions are excellent, and you should have a solid understanding of the scriptures with regards to salvation before taking any steps. Don’t beat yourself up over asking questions crucial to your faith.
Mist Test,
Yes I can see that.
RickB,
I dont know…