In the 1974 October General Conference of the Mormon Church Marion G. Romney (Second Counselor in the First Presidency) said,
“I am going to talk about some of the very fundamentals of the gospel of Jesus Christ of great importance…
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms as its Third Article of Faith:
‘We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.’ [A of F 1:3]
“In these remarks I shall set forth some views of the church of Jesus Christ on this subject.
“Saved as here used means resurrected and returned as a sanctified, celestialized, immortal soul to the presence and society of God, there to pursue an endless course of eternal progress.
“To get a glimpse of what this means requires a knowledge of the form and nature of God and of man and their relationship to each other.
“Man is a soul, that is, a dual being, a spirit person clothed in a tangible body of flesh and bones. God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life. He is both immortal and exalted to the highest glory. He is enjoying that blessed condition which men may attain to by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. (“How Men Are Saved,” Ensign, November 1974)
Broken down, then, what Mr. Romney taught about God is this:
- He is immortal.
- He is perfected.
- He is exalted.
- He is saved.
Because God is saved (per Mr. Romney’s stated definition),
- He is resurrected (immortal).
- He is sanctified.
- He is celestialized.
- He is returned to the presence and society of [his?] God.
- He is to progress eternally.
Therefore, in Mormonism, God the Father was “saved,” that is, “resurrected and returned” to the presence of God with several new attributes, including sanctification. Bruce McConkie defines sanctification:
“To be sanctified is to become clean, pure, and spotless; to be free from the blood and sins of the world; … a state attained only by conformity to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. The plan of salvation is the system and means provided whereby men may sanctify their souls and thereby become worthy of a celestial inheritance.” (Mormon Doctrine, “Sanctification,” 675)
If “to be sanctified” is to become clean, pure and spotless, then there must have been a time when Heavenly Father was not clean, pure and spotless.
Is this what Mr. Romney intended to teach the Mormon membership about the LDS view of the nature of God? Whether that was his intent or not, it seems that this is actually what many Mormons believe about Heavenly Father – that he was, perhaps, once a sinner.
“Saved as here used means resurrected and returned as a sanctified, celestialized, immortal soul to the presence and society of God, there to pursue an endless course of eternal progress.”
Wow. You know, its hard to believe that lay Mormons don’t think that God was once a man. Or at least if they do think that, they gloss over it, as if it is a little matter.
Its also hard to believe how if they do believe this, they can equate their brand of faith with ours. “Yup, we’re Christians just like you.”
No, friends, you are not Christians just like us. Our faiths are extremely different.
As to the article, who cares what individuals think. It is the doctrine of the church that matters, not the ideas, theories and philosophies of its members.
“‘Yup, we’re Christians just like you.’ No, friends, you are not Christians just like us. Our faiths are extremely different.”
You don’t quite understand us. We have never said we are just like you. After all, we have the true gospel and you don’t. We are both Christian, when the actual definition of that term is what is being considered, and that is what we maintain. But we are far from being the same.
Ah, I have had many, many conversations about how you and us are the same under Christ, and these conversations always minimize the differences.
And if you claim you have the true gospel, and we don’t, then we aren’t really true Christians, are we?
See the problem with the concept that we are both Christian is that it requires the inclusion of anyone who calls someone/something Christ under the moniker of “Christian”. On a literal level, it would be true, for anyone believing in the giant spaghetti monster named Christ is also literally a Christian. However, is there any argument that they are really “Christian”? If they are, isn’t it a distortion of what true Christianity is?
I’ll put it this way, too. Doesn’t it cheapen the definition of the term “Christian”? It causes confusion for someone who may be looking into Christianity. If the term means very different things depending on who you talk to, it becomes a name with less power and meaning.
So it is with your faith and mine. We both claim Christ, but they are indeed very different. And because of that, I hope you understand why we object you claiming you are Christian.
“It is the doctrine of the church that matters, not the ideas, theories and philosophies of its members.”
Then don’t argue with us when we quote what your church and its leaders teach. Or are the leaders just merely members who can get it wrong? If they can get it wrong, why listen to them? Oh, and who or what then, determines the doctrine of the church?
“Oh, and who or what then, determines the doctrine of the church?”
As Aaron says frequently (paraphrasing him): “There is no official and binding [doctrine] as to what constitutes an official and binding [doctrine] in the Mormon church.”
That statement is very true, and it provides plausible deniability and a cover for anything controversial.
These videos are very enlightening. I love it when Mormons spout off what they have been taught and then it’s turned on them as just their “opinion” it’s not official. Who taught this stuff to them I wonder. Funny how they all pretty much say the same thing and they probably don’t even know each other, but the church couldn’t have possibly been involved with their teaching.
“Man is a soul, that is, a dual being, a spirit person clothed in a tangible body of flesh and bones. God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life. He is both immortal and exalted to the highest glory. He is enjoying that blessed condition which men may attain to by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. (“How Men Are Saved,” Ensign, November 1974)
Nowhere does God speak of himself in this way. If we can be saved by obedience to laws and ordinances then why do we need a Savior? Mormons think they can save themselves for the most part. As Shawn McCraney says, ” In Mormonism, Jesus is just a little janitor that comes out and cleans up what’s left.” For a Christian, it’s all about Jesus. He did it ALL and through His work on the Cross we can have eternal life. Only through Grace are we saved. The teachings of the Bible and Christianity are so different than Mormonism that I have to laugh every time a Mormon cries that they are Christians too. Mormonism is it’s own beast and has nothing whatever to do with Christianity.
“………..we have the true gospel and you don’t.”
You know what shem? I can fly and you can’t! No, I don’t have to prove it, I can just say it and because I believe it, it’s true. It even makes me feel real good when I think about how I can soar.
OK so here we go again. Can you offer any evidence that the beliefs and practices of the modern day Salt Lake City branch of Mormonism, is what was preached by the first century church?
I can give you plenty of evidence that what orthodox Christians believe today was that which was preached in the primitive Christian church.
But why would you want to believe the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers or even what the heretics wrote about and believed in the first 400 years of the Christian Church when you have the word of a man with a very excellent magic rock?
Shem do you even know what the other brands/sects of Mormonism teach and why? You’re stuck with some pathetic mental meanderings of some guys who said they were prophets and whom subsequent generations of Mormon treat like crazy uncles the keep locked in the attic.
There’s a reason why all these former Mormons who post here bailed out on Mormonism. They figured it out. You need to do the same.
We are saved by God’s grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ alone, based on holy scripture (Bible) alone–in spite of all we can or can’t, will or won’t, do or don’t.
It’s 101% God’s work through Christ. According to Eph 2:10, even the good works we do do, He created them for us!
I know that nothing good in me dwells. All my works are as filthy rags.
So it’s zero me and what I do; 100% Him that does it.
Laws and ordinance of the “gospel” indeed!
Talk about confusing Law & Gospel!
Joe Smith sure was one confused Protestant!
It’s hard to believe that we have men today who come and proclaim that Jesus is directing
their preaching that they are being supervised by Him to teach the actual truth about Him ,
about God , and salvation , and then we hear them teach that ” God is a saved soul ” . Wow.
We can see the very warnings of Jesus for this time in which we live coming true ! Matt 24:11
The Mormon people deserve better .
As far as im concerned it doesnt matter what faith you preach from no one knows what God did before creation or what people will be doing in whatever heaven exists afterward. Its all opinion and speculation!
Every time I see that video I cry. I get angry. I get so frustrated….
Please Lord Jesus, touch these people and lift the scales from their eyes. Give us words, give us guidance, and give us strength to reach them.
Spoken like a true pragmatist!
Whatever works for you, right?
That’s all what’s left for the LDS at the end of the discussion. “Hey, well, it works for me, OK?”
To me God is a puzzle. An incomprehensible puzzle at that. We are here to learn. So I have to get along with Falcon, Rick B., Mike R. MJP, Shematwater, Tom, Kate, Quando, Cattyjane, Brewed, and Sharon plus all the others at MRM. It is a learning experience. We are here to learn, About our selves and others. I don’t know how Enoch did it but it doesn’t matter because most christians don’t know who he is. I know that the God I worship is the same for everybody else, the only thing different is how I comprehend Him.
It is interesting what cattyjane said: As far as I’m concerned it doesn’t matter what faith you preach from, no one knows what God did before creation or what people will be doing in whatever heaven exists afterward. Its all opinion and speculation! I remember what Moses said, Compared to God, man is nothing.
“I know that the God I worship is the same for everybody else, the only thing different is how I comprehend Him.”
That makes absolutely no sense. God is the same even if we all comprehend Him in a different manner? Yea, God doesn’t change even if someone thinks he’s someone else. Well another big DUH!
clyde, you don’t think it really matters how we comprehend who God is? That’s called universalism. It’s the idea that it’s not really important to get God right.
So why do people even bother being missionaries? Why did Jesus send out His disciples?
clyde it does matter who people conceive God to be. Your salvation depends on it.
Gordon B. Hinckley, one of your former prophets said that the Jesus of Mormonism was not the Jesus of traditional Christianity. The Mormon Jesus can’t save you clyde.
You need to get that straight.
I wouldn’t exactly quote cattjane as an authority. She appears pretty confused to me, as do you.
So folks according to clyde, it’s all the same. I doubt that.
God’s not really pleased with a group of people who invented a hybrid version of Him and then claim that this is who He is.
The Mormon god got his start on an earth like ours where he was mortal and a sinner. However, on this distant planet, he went through the Mormon system, perfected himself and after death became a god.
Now how in the world can anyone believe that the Almighty God would be pleased with this and welcome these folks into His heaven. They say He was a mortal man who sinned and if it weren’t for the universal Mormon system that exists in the universe, He’d be lost. The Mormon god had to be saved just like all of the other gods.
Really clyde, you think it’s all the same. I don’t care how sincere, pious and well meaning you are. If you believe such a thing you are lost, condemned for eternity, separated from God. What you believe is blasphemy. I know that for Mormons, calling their view of God blasphemy is exhilarating. Why would they feel this way? Because in their twisted minds they think that they have special spiritual understanding that allows them insights to understand this.
As I repeat often, the more bizarre and convoluted an idea, the more cultists embrace and love it.
Catty and Clyde,
Who’s speculating about who God is?
God make himself perfectly clear throughout the OT and then shows up in human form in the NT.
We don’t have to speculate as to who God is. Who does God say he is? He says I Am that I Am. He says He has always been. He says He is the ONLY God, Besides him there are no others. He says Nothing and No one can compare to him. He is the only perfect, righteous, and just thing. He exists in and out of time.
These are all things He declares about himself. He created all the stars and knows them each by name. All of creation declares his glory.
1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
2 Corinthians 4:4 In their case the god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
John 14:9-11 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isaiah 43:11 I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Jude 1:25 To the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Matthew 7:7-10 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Revelation 4:11“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Galatians 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
Romans 15:6 That together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
John 12:44-45 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Matthew 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Hosea 13:4 But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.
Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
Colossians 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Mark 2:5-11And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? …
Malachi 3:17 “They shall be mine, says the Lord of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him.
Isaiah 41:1-29 Listen to me in silence, O coastlands; let the peoples renew their strength; let them approach, then let them speak; let us together draw near for judgment. Who stirred up one from the east whom victory meets at every step? He gives up nations before him, so that he tramples kings underfoot; he makes them like dust with his sword, like driven stubble with his bow. He pursues them and passes on safely, by paths his feet have not trod. Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he. The coastlands have seen and are afraid; the ends of the earth tremble; they have drawn near and come. …
Revelation 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”
Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
Acts 17:30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Acts 17:29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
John 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Psalm 104:30 When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.”
Revelation 7:9-10 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 1:2 The life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
2 Peter 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Hebrews 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
2 Timothy 1:9 Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
1 Timothy 6:16 Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Galatians 6:1-5 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each will have to bear his own load.
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Galatians 2:6And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.
1 Corinthians 2:10 These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1 Corinthians 1:24 But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) …
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
This idea that it’s just all opinion is a major cop-out.
We hear that from Mormons when they run out of arguments to defend Mormonism. As we see from the post above mine here, we know who God is. The Bible is clear.
Christian churches agree on the points regarding the doctrine of God. It’s sects like Mormonism and Jehovah Witness, who claim to have special revelation, who have no clue who God is.
Quando, you are speaking my language, “Talk about confusing Law & Gospel”, it’s good to see others here.
Cattyjane, it saddens me and I know it saddens others to read what you said in your last post. I understand you are confused but do you still believe what you said?
Clyde, you are like the jar jar binks of Mormon Coffee, you are in the script yet you add nothing to the plot as always :/
Those scriptures do not say anything about gods identity before the creation of the world and they also dont say anything about what people will do in heaven. The bible doesnt say anything about what will go on after we enter into the afterlife.
I must admit I am perplexed at your assertions. Frankly I don’t care what God was doing before He created the universe and I certainly don’t have much curiosity about what people will do in heaven.
I’m I reading you right that you can’t move on until these questions are answered for you? No wonder you’re not getting any where in your spiritual quest. You’re asking, in my opinion, superfluous questions.
When I run into folks like yourself, it’s difficult for me to take you seriously. It seems the whole point of your questions is to chase people hither and yon just for the fun of it. I’m just not going to let you take me off message because I know what the next thing will be that you come up with.
I’ve seen this before. Folks like yourself show-up on these blogs just to stir things up and see if you can get someone to take the bait.
I’m really confused on why what God did before creation and what we will be doing afterwards has anything to do with anything? What is overall point of that statement? Cattyjane often makes comments that I can never figure out what she is ultimately trying to say.
Whatever! That is not it at all! The topic of the blog is about what God was before he was god. All I was saying is that there isnt any information about what God was before he created the earth and there isnt any information about if we will progress in heaven or what we will be doing after we are in heaven. Thats all I was saying. Its not a topic people can argue over because the bible doesnt clarify either one of those things. Im not baiting you or anyone else!
Who was God before creation? He was God. He was God before man. He was God before the universe. He was and is and is to come. He has always been all powerful. He is the source of everything. He is it. Everything came from Him. Those verses all speak to that and all speak to Jesus being God.
To think God was ever man, to think that God was ever less than perfect is a lie. It isn’t simple speculation to think God was ever man because it flies in the face of evidence and denigrates God. This is a dangerous concept and I can’t wrap my head around the fact that Mormons can’t see the problem. I can’t understand how the LDS prophets could ever construe such a fallacious story. Where does this type of garbage thinking even come from?
Catty, Understanding who God is makes us trust and worship him the way we are supposed to. Until you understand who he is, your going to be scratching your head. Your going to have a hard time trusting his word and your not going to be able to worship him.
Falcon, Instead of telling Shem you can fly and being totaly unrelistic, just tell him you wrestle Bears. Tell him they even come knocking on your back door. LoL.
My Mom lives fairly close to you, she and my dad live in Hayward and they live on the water, they get bears coming and tearing up the deck all the time. My mom said she wakes up screaming in terror waking my dad up, she dreams the bears comeinto the house wanting to eat her.
I told her, If I ever get a phone call that this really did happen I wont be surprised since they pretty much feed the bears by putting out bird feeders.
So all the people that feel god is really a women, they must be right, correct? Or what about Muslims, they feel God is really allah, and they reject Jesus, but they must be right also? or what about the people who feel we are gods here and now, they must also be correct Right?
What if we all just said, it really does not matter what we believe about Clyde, all that matters is we believe in clyde. Me I will say, Clyde really is a 14 year old girl, who dyed her hair hot pink, like to wear flower pattern dresses and has pig tails.
Yet Falcon might believe Clyde is a 70 year old man who worked as a sewer worker all his life and lived with out ever missing a day of work.
Yet maybe Aaron believe Clyde is a 30 year old guy that looks like a biker, really big guy covered in Tattoos and has a big bushy beard. Really Clyde, Maybe I am right and maybe I should call you claudete.
Cattyjane, I got nothing better to do right now so here I go. In your first post you said the following:
“As far as im concerned” Notice how you are not summoning anything other than yourself…
“it doesnt matter what faith you preach from[,] no one knows what God did before creation or what people will be doing in whatever heaven exists afterward.” Why is this important? What does this have to do with anything? In my opinion, the only reason why you would ask this question is so that you can prove to yourself that God is an exalted man, and that exalted men will become Gods themselves.
“Its all opinion and speculation!” Yes, it is all opinions and speculations when you are judging this based upon your own thoughts.
Am I wrong in understanding what you said as being an attempt to create a scenario in which it COULD be possible for God to have been an exalted man and exalted men to become Gods? Why would anybody hope for this possibility unless they were… a Mormon?
Cattyjane, if you are leaving a crack open in the door of your religion for the Mormon understanding of Exaltation of the infinte pantheon of eternal spirits who each become Gods in one eternal round, then you are falling into deep deep deep heresy.
Wow you guys don’t know who Enoch was. What he did and how he did it is my question. I think that when we question other beliefs we form a separation between ourselves.
I must remember though that I am facing people who yearn for the old days, When heretics were burned at the stake and I am learning that they have a very different concept of 1 peter 3:15 than I have.
Clyde, Enoch ? Really ? What about the topic at hand , namely your God is a ” saved soul” ?
Did the Mormon apostle ( Romney) who made the statement that God is a ” saved soul”
mention that this was a fundamental of the gospel of Jesus ? If so , do you believe that Jesus’
original apostles also taught the fundamentals of His gospel ? Did they ever make a statement
about God like Mormon apostle Romney did ?
1 Peter 3:15 ? I’m sure we both agree on the correct concept of that verse .
Clyde, based on your comments I think you are on the wrong blog site, try this one instead I think you would be received as a theological Yoda to them with your irrelevant outside-the-box “insight”:
Mistaken Test hit it right on when writing:
“Cattyjane, if you are leaving a crack open in the door of your religion for the Mormon understanding of Exaltation of the infinte pantheon of eternal spirits who each become Gods in one eternal round, then you are falling into deep deep deep heresy.”
I would say you are a good candidate for a cult and see why Mormonism would appeal to you.
Cults have answers for people’s questions. They also have at least one man who can satisfy a person’s needs (see Abraham Mazlow on “needs”).
I recently watched a very good docudrama on Jim Jones and Jonestown. Scary stuff but it shows the path down which some people go down in their religious/spiritual quest.
Why do I say that you’re a good candidate? Because a cult could answer all your questions including what God was doing before He created the universe and what you’ll be doing in heaven.
These groups would also provide you with a real sense of belonging and moment to moment direction.
In answering why they joined a group like this people will often say, “Because they could answer all of my questions. Other religious groups couldn’t do that.”
Back to the beginning. Who is Jesus? What does His death on the cross have to do with me?
Malachi 3:6 says “For I am The Lord, I do not change.” We are talking more about who God is and not what has or will do. God’s nature, who he is, does not change. A progressing God is a changing God. A progressing God is not a perfect God for what is he changing toward, something better, more perfect?
We may not be able to describe or know all that God is. But we have been given enough information in the scriptures to know who he is not. God is not an exalted man and not a “saved soul.” we know that because the scriptures help us understand His nature. He is and always was eternally God. Think it though. You can’t have an eternal link of causality. gods making gods. You can’t have an eternal chain of events with an eternal source. The eternal source is God.
I meant “without an eternal source”
There you go hurting my feelings intimating that the Christians here want to burn heretics at the stake. That fits in nicely with the Mormon narrative that Christians are mean people whereas Mormons are really, really nice.
It’s all part-and-parcel of the persecution complex that is prevalent among Mormons. I always know when a Mormon poster has run out of arguments. Out comes the persecution card.
Now you can sulk off like FOF did recently.
I can see why you’d get all in a huff watching that video above. It brings the stark reality home that Mormons believe that their god needed to be saved; that he was just a sinful man. Now that’s a god whose bandwagon folks would be frothing at the mouth to jump on.
You’re stuck with a real bad situation clyde. You need to get yourself out of it.
Using Romney’s definition of “saved,” Christ was “saved.”
The argument that we believe God was a sinner comes from folks like Aaron S. and those at websites like this all the time. But where does our doctrine of God having had an earthly life come from?
Ultimately, it comes from the King Follett discourse from Joseph Smith. And those who level this criticism toward the church are ignoring some important statements from that discourse.
These statements from the King Follett discourse include the following:
1. “God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.”
2. “Jesus said, ‘As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power.’ To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious–in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.
3. “What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before. It is plain beyond disputation.”
So if you claim that our doctrine supports the idea that God was ever a sinner, you must explain how that can be reconciled with these three statements from Joseph Smith. And that simply does not work.
God was never a sinner. His earthly life was “just like Jesus Christ’s.” He had power to lay down His life and to take it again. Christ worked out His kingdom the very same way God worked out His.
FoF, so the homily “as man is god once was…” is wrong?
FoF said, “God was never a sinner. His earthly life was “just like Jesus Christ’s.” He had power to lay down His life and to take it again. Christ worked out His kingdom the very same way God worked out His.”
The LDS church teaches that God has a wife and that our heavenly parents were once like us who have received their exaltation by being married for time and eternity, they had us as their spirit children, and now we can become like them and have spirit children as well if we are married in a Mormon temple. Note that Jesus does not have a wife, and that the our heavenly parents have received their exaltation just the same as we will receive our exaltation rather than through the uniquely Jesus method. This is from the Gospel Principles manual, which is essentially the catechism of the LDS church:
Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly PARENTS, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can BECOME perfect, just AS they are.
Our heavenly PARENTS … knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left them for a time. … If we passed our tests, WE WOULD RECEIVE the fulness of joy that our heavenly PARENTS HAVE RECEIVED.
At this council … We learned that … we would be exalted and BECOME LIKE our heavenly PARENTS.
By choosing wisely, we will gain exaltation, PROGRESS eternally, and enjoy perfect happiness.
When we enter into the ETERNAL MARRIAGE COVENANT, we make other sacred promises and are promised exaltation for faithful obedience.
When we accept the new and everlasting covenant, we agree to … receive the covenant of MARRIAGE in the temple … our Heavenly Father promises us that we will RECEIVE exaltation in the celestial kingdom.
The Church exists to help FAMILIES GAIN eternal blessings and exaltation.
Our exaltation depends on MARRIAGE.
Some of the blessings we can enjoy for eternity are as follows: ..
2. We can be exalted AS God is …
3. We can, at some future time, increase our FAMILY by HAVING SPIRIT CHILDREN.
We must seek earnestly to obey every covenant that we make IN THE TEMPLE. The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, we will PASS BY the angels to our exaltation. We will BECOME GODS. TEMPLE MARRIAGE is worth any sacrifice.
Temple work involves the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation. These include … TEMPLE MARRIAGE …
We can become LIKE our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation …
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: …
2. They will BECOME GODS.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to HAVE SPIRIT CHILDREN also. These spirit children will have the SAME RELATIONSHIP to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
To be exalted, … He commands us all to RECEIVE SERTAIN ORDINANCES: …
4. We must be MARRIED FOR TIME AND ETERNITY.
Good post! This Mormonism is really exceptional stuff. And to think that it all came from modern day prophets to whom the Mormon god revealed it all. Isn’t that exciting? And the real kicker is that this is exactly what the first century Christians believed and what the apostles taught. It’s such a shame that it was lost for nearly 2,000 years before Joseph Smith, armed with his magic rock, got it all back.
Now to be honest, if I were going to be a Mormon, I’d have to go with the FLDS because they have the unbroken string of revelation. They didn’t jettison any of it. They have some real good stuff about who the Mormon god really is.
I think the Salt Lake City bunch needs to hit the LDS vault and get the seer stone out and get back to its roots.
I really groove on stuff like this:
In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading “THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON,” this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington:
“Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.
“As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do — that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.
“He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.
“In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.” (The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’ Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64)
Mormons just don’t get good stuff like this any more. The SLC sect is soooooooo BORING! Give me the old guys like Brigham Young and even Bruce McConkie. Those dudes had it all going on!
Someone once asked John Lennon where the name “Beatles” came from. He said:
“Many people ask what are Beatles? Why Beatles? Ugh, Beatles, how did the name arrive? So we will tell you. It came in a vision–a man appeared in a flaming pie and said unto them “From this day on you are Beatles with an A.” “Thank you, Mister Man,” they said, thanking him.”
Now as far as I’m concerned this is Mormonism in a nutshell. Now how in the world can I say that? Well it’s because Mormon prophets have as much credibility as would John Lennon as a prophet if we took to heart this story and created a religion around it.
Mormon prophets really are men floating about the sky on flaming pies. They preach out of their own imaginations and change Mormon doctrine about as often as they change their magic underwear. They have zero credibility.
Why not believe anyone who has had a vision, a dream, sacred writings and revelations? I’ve posted this before but this is a good place for it. It’s of particular interest because the woman was a Mormon. Why not believe her. There’s a whole devotion dedicated to her dreams, visions and writings.
She was raised a Mormon and was married at the well-known Mormon temple in Salt Lake City. That event was the turning point in her life. She left the secret ceremony disenchanted with Mormonism, especially the doctrine that placed man-made gods above the God of Abraham. She began a ten-year search for the truth, which culminated with her conversion to the Catholic faith.
The life story of Cora Evans, wife and mother, is that of a remarkable mystic who practiced Christian virtues (faith, hope and charity) and earned a reputation for holiness. Cora’s gifts of mysticism: the odor of sanctity, suffering the wounds of Christ – stigmata – and magnificent writings are not, in and of themselves, sufficient grounds for the declaration of sainthood. It is the story of her life with the proof of heroic virtues that place everything else in context.”
Clyde uses an analogy about Christians that never took place and never will in America, while his own “prophets” had people castrated and their throats cut for apostasy. Unbelievable.
No. The saying that “as man is God once was” is true. But you confuse what that saying refers to.
Man is mortal and has the capacity to die physically. Man is subject to pain, temptation, suffering, and all the imperfect conditions present on a mortal earth like this planet.
Jesus Christ was once “as man is.” Is that untrue? It does not require God or Christ to be exactly like man in every way, including sinning, to qualify as having “been as man is.”
God was once on an earth like this one. He experienced temptation, disease, pain, loneliness, and at some point, death. But He never sinned, “just like Jesus Christ” never sinned.
LOL. Someone forgot to quote the rest of what Smith meant in this epic heretical discourse. He said,
That says ALL THE GODS. Smith is simply saying that the Son and the Father had power to die and be resurrected just like all the other gods. This idea that Jesus dad was another “saviour” and “perfect” just like Jesus is wishful thinking by those who live in the Mormon bubble of denial. Here is what Smith said, ““What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same…”
Smith says nothing about the Father doing the EXACT SAME THING Jesus did… only that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling”. Big straw man, FOF, big one.
Note the three quotations from the King Follett discourse I provided. They cannot be reconciled with the claim that God was once a sinner.
And nothing in the statement you just posted contradicts what I am saying. Every being who becomes a god must go through a mortal probation. Jesus “grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.” He did not come to earth as a complete adult Savior. He too followed the path of entering the world as an infant and all that is involved with life on earth.
And that is the point. Mortal life is necessary. Sin is not. Neither the Father nor the Son ever sinned. The rest of us have and do.
Sorry FOF but your quotes can be “reconciled”. Plus one of your own “prophets” explicitly taught that your God was a sinner and that was Brigham Young. He had a “revelation” that your God was Adam, a sinner. Smith was merely saying that Jesus did what God the Father did, became mortal, died and took up his body again when he was resurrected. He does not mention at all that he was also a “savior” of a world and sinless. Sorry but it just isn’t there. on June 16, 1844 (two months after the King Follett Discourse) Smith said,
It is obvious that Smith means that Jesus was like his Father ONLY in that he got a body, died, and was resurrected. In the same sermon, Smith also said,
“Mortal life is necessary. Sin is not. Neither the Father nor the Son ever sinned. The rest of us have and do.”
According to who?
Give me a break! This is another one of those cases where you’re peeing on our leg and telling us it’s raining.
Who do you think is so naive, other than a Mormon, to believe the nonsense you’re trying to peddle here.
Did any of the Mormon gods in the pantheon of Mormon gods sin? We’re told that there are perhaps millions if not billions of gods who have followed the Mormon success system and made it to the top of the pile. They were all men at one time. Are the Mormon heavenly father and the Mormon Jesus the only ones in this vast universe of gods who never sinned?
Honestly, don’t you ever get tired of all of the excuse making and exceptions to the rules in Mormonism?
There is though, some speculation that went on along the lines of your own belief, FOF. But this also includes Adam as God.
In 1882, [Edward] Stevenson (of the First Council of Seventy) and several brethren spoke to Thomas Howell, who opposed the Adam-god doctrine, in a general meeting of the Seventies. Howell was told that if he “could not comprehend these things to lay them up untill he could, & if he indulged in that spirrit to correct or set President Young rite that he would be delt with & lose his faith & STANDING IN THE CHURCH.” After “meny remarks” Howell “said he was rong, sory for it & asked for forgiveness.” 
Abraham H. Cannon was with his father, Apostle George Q. Cannon in 1888 after a Church service, when his father turned and asked him what he understood concerning Mary and the Savior. Abraham was silent, having no answer. George then asked him “what was to prevent Father Adam from visiting and overshadowing the mother of Jesus?” The younger Cannon answered, “Then he must have been a RESURRECTED being.” “Yes” said his father, “and though Christ IS SAID TO HAVE BEEN the ‘first fruits’ of them that slept, yet the Saviour said he did NOTHING but what he had seen the father do, for he had power to lay down his life and take it up again. ADAM, though made of the dust, was made, as President Young said, of the dust of ANOTHER PLANET than this.” Abraham said, “I was very much instructed by the conversation and this day’s service.” 
In 1888, Joseph E. Taylor (First Counselor in the Salt Lake Stake Presidency) delivered a speech in the Logan temple in which he claimed that Adam was a resurrected man and that Adam was the father of Jesus Christ. Taylor added a little to Young’s doctrine, claiming that Adam was also the Savior of his world, before he came to this earth:
Beyond Authorities George Q. and Abraham H. Cannon and Edward Stevenson, in the 1890s one also finds brief but supportive references to the doctrine by Apostles Brigham Young, Jr., Franklin D. Richards and Lorenzo Snow. Snow is reported as leading “out on Adam being our father and God. How beautiful the thought it brot. God nearer to us.” To this Richards added that “it made him thrill through his whole body it was NEW & it was INSPIRING.”
Edward Stevenson wrote the following in his diary in March, 1896, that he had “more pleasure than usual with a deep talk with Pres. L. Snow on the subject”; of Adam-god and others had discussions in October 1897 and January 1899, in addition to the December 1897 deliberations mentioned in the text. Stevenson’s observations on these discussion, which he wrote in his diary for February 28, 1896 are interesting:
This idea of Adam being a Savior on HIS world also, was also advocated by Joseph E. Taylor, quoted in the text above. For the attacks on the Church during this period by the RLDS see The True Latter-day Saints’ Herald, vol. 1 (November I860), pp. 259-65; and vol. 1 (December 1860), pp. 269-73, 280-85.
. Edward Stevenson Diary, March 7,1880, LDS Archives. “Bp. Hess,” in attendance, “said that he could endorse all that had been said although he did not understand all yet it made him feel good & like liveing his religion.”
. Edward Stevenson Diary, March 4, 1882.
. Abraham H. Cannon Journal, February 22, 1888, vol. 10, pp. 178-79, Lee Library. On Sunday, June 23, 1889, George Q. Cannon reitterated his beliefs to his son, Abraham, who recorded: “He believes that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and that Adam is His Father and our God[.]” (Abraham H. Cannon Journal, same date) Also cf. George Q. Cannon’s speech published in May 1889,LDSMS, vol. 51, p. 278; as well as “The Origin of Man,” LDSMS, vol. 23 (October 1861), no. 41,p. 654.
. The talk was read in the Logan temple on June 2, 1888, and published in the Deseret News Weekly, December 29, 1888, pp. 19-27. See also Collected Discourses, Vol. 1, June 2, 1888
(From my forthcoming book, Yahovah Michael: Brigham Young’s Revelation On Adam )
Here is a good portion of the lecture delivered by Joseph E. Taylor as part of the Logan Temple Lectures, held in the Logan Temple, June 2nd, 1888.
It is obvious from this lecture that Adam God was taught as it is declared by everyone (except Mormon Apologists), inside the Temple, even. Taylor uses the same JOD quote that Fielding Smith said was “erroneously transcribed”, and spells out Young’s revelation on Adam (as God the Father of Spirits) plainly. It was not a “theory” back then, it was not a muddled concept that Young “never finished”, & Young was not speaking of two Adams (as some Mormon Apologists have fantasized).
Nope, it is cut and dry and all of the church authorities of the time accepted it as REVELATION or they were threatened with excommunication if they spoke against it. Mormons today can deny this all day long, but it doesn’t change the FACTS. This doctrine builds upon Jo’s doctrines of a plurality of gods, and that men can become gods, and that all the gods came to be gods in this way. This is never going to go away no matter how much Mormons say they don’t believe it now, teach it now, that it is not in the “Standard Works” or deny that it was ever taught.
Falcon has the right of it, and Taylor’s and others additions to Young’s doctrine that Adam (God the Father of Jesus) must have been a “savior” was added only to boost his status as a god. “Our god could never sin”, oh no. But SOME Mormon gods HAD TO SIN or you might as well throw the whole “eternal progression” nonsense out the window. (Which you should) But not in the Mormon Bubble of denial, I guess.
“Mortal life is necessary. Sin is not.”
Really? Then why did Jo write,
To even have “mortal life”, Adam had to sin. Only in Mormonism is sin “necessary”.
Well this certainly clears things up for me:
“It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, viz.: Eloheim, Jehovah and Michael. These [p.131] three formed a quorum as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing elements perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Jesus our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character as was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven. Let all who may hear these doctrines pause before they make light of them or treat them with indifference; for they will prove their salvation or damnation.”
So it’s easy to see why the Salt Lake City sect of Mormonism is in total apostasy. Actually this group of miscreants get it from both sides; the Community of Christ and the Church of Christ-Temple Lot on one side and the FLDS on the other.
I love your conclusion.
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.
To even have “mortal life”, Adam had to sin. Only in Mormonism is sin “necessary”.
I’ll bet you thank God everyday that you left this sect years ago and found salvation through Jesus Christ!