In reading the July 2013 Ensign, I came across a thoughtful story written by Bonnie Marshall in the Latter-day Saint Voices section of the magazine. Mrs. Marshall tells of a long flight she and her husband took when they returned to Utah from their mission at BYU-Hawaii. Because Mrs. Marshall’s husband was a large man, for the sake of his comfort, the couple upgraded his ticket to the only remaining seat in first-class, while Mrs. Marshall flew in coach.
Midway through the flight Mrs. Marshall decided to visit her husband, but she was stopped by a flight attendant and told she, as an economy-class passenger, was not allowed into the first-class section of the aircraft. Mrs. Marshall tried to explain and reason with the flight attendant, but could make no headway. She was told that her husband could go back in the plane to visit Mrs. Marshall, but she could not go to visit him. The flight attendant made it clear, “I’m sorry, you can’t come up here.”
As I read this I thought I knew where the story was going. I supposed that a kindly person in first-class would hear the conversation between Mrs. Marshall and the flight attendant and, giving up his first-class seat, offer to trade with Mrs. Marshall so she could sit by her husband through the rest of the flight. I may have forgotten for a moment what magazine I was reading because I thought to myself, in anticipation of this tender turn of events, “That is a sweet analogy of the Gospel – as if it were Jesus selflessly and sacrificially making a gift of His first-class seat to a woman who had no claim on it and no hope of acquiring it for herself.” But that’s not how the story went.
Mrs. Marshall was turned away at first-class and went quietly back to her economy-class seat. As she told the story, she explained that to her, this experience was an illustration of Mormonism’s three degrees of glory:
“We read that Christ will visit those in the terrestrial kingdom (see D&C 76:77), and administering angels will visit those in the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:88), but those who are in the lesser kingdoms can never go up to the celestial kingdom (see D&C 76:112; see also D&C 88:22–24). Reflecting upon my experience, I felt that I just had a glimpse of what it might be like for those in the lower kingdoms. How would they feel upon hearing the words ‘I’m sorry, you can’t come up here’?” (Ensign, 7/2013, 72)
Rather than being a tale of grace and mercy, this narrative turned out to be about the contrasting harsh and merciless Mormon plan of salvation wherein you get what you pay for. As disappointing as it was in that there was no happy ending to the story with a Jesus character giving up his seat, the tragedy of the whole thing is this. Five months after the flight, Mr. Marshall died, leaving Mrs. Marshall clinging to this hope: “My experience on the airplane gives me extra incentive to live so that I never have to hear those words again—at least not on the other side of the veil.”
This broke my heart. Mrs. Marshall will live out the rest of her days striving more and more to keep the commandments, obey the prophets, and keep her covenants so she will merit the celestial kingdom, as she supposes, and be with her husband again. The tragedy is that all her striving will not get her what she hopes for — she cannot plead, persuade, or pay her way into first-class.
“You must understand that there is only one door to salvation, and that is Christ; there is one way, and that is Christ; one truth, and that is Christ; one life, and that is Christ. Salvation lies in Jesus only; it does not lie in you, in your doings, or your feelings, or your knowings, or your resolutions. In Him all life and light for the sons of men are stored up by the mercy of God the Father. …‘it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.’ (Rom. 9:16)” (“One Door to Salvation,” Charles Haddon Spurgeon)
Unless Mrs. Marshall’s hope is in Christ alone, in His freely given gift of eternal life as the Bible says, I fear the words she will hear on the other side of the veil will be, “Depart from Me, I never knew you.”
I had a feeling that direction was where Ms. Marshall was going given the nature of the publication and this site. Nonetheless, I think it is a shame that people have to live that way under LDS thought.
This is entirely different than what it is we as Christians teach. Its also entirely binding. Rather than resting in the promise that God has taken her husband to be with Him, she is now determined to live so that she will not let God down and be trapped in a lower heaven. This is not freedom, nor is it comfort. It may be motivation to live a good life, but that in and of itself is not freedom.
It saddens me to know that she could be resting in God’s arms now but has instead chosen to live a life accomplishing things that don’t matter.
And we all know the ensign is “scripture for out day” right?….right?
😉
In all seriousness this article typifies mormon think and it’s truly a depressing picture
Out day= our day
Stupid auto correct
This is really sort of amazing. If I were to have used the same story as an analogy for Mormon beliefs with some of my Mormon friends, I have a feeling that they would have regarded it as a caricature designed to make their belief-system look cruel and loveless, devoid of mercy and bankrupt of compassion. And yet, here we find a Mormon periodical carrying that same analogy as told by a Mormon, highlighting the coldness of the Mormon ‘plan of salvation’. It’s a heartbreaking moral, and it’s a heartbreaking falsehood.
Johnnyboy,
When you said the ensign is scripture for our day, its funny how you were being sarcastic, yet in one of the last few topics, lds poster shem quoted the ensign and told me ut is scripture and doctrine. He said it gets the stamp of approval and can be used as such. So sadly it is true and yiu were right.
HahHah. Yeah, I saw his post from the other day.
I hope everyone saw that admission from Shem. He was not apologetic about it, either. I wonder how it will be spun.
I’m guessing shem won’t touch it, easier to avoid it then spin it. But that’s typical of lds here, avoid the hard topics and questions.
How does Mrs. Marshall KNOW her husband made it to the highest kingdom?
How does she know that she won’t be wasting her time here with all of her effort? Oh that’s right, she can easily be given to another man in the highest kingdom, no worries then. Sorry, this part of Mormonism is really appalling to me. Yes, I have to ask…. Where is Jesus in ANY of this?
Kate,
I agree with you when you ask, where is Jesus in any of this?
Sadly though, the lds don’t need or want Jesus, they have joseph smith, and lets not forget, joseph said, he has done more than even Jesus did. Wow, what pride and arrogance. Thats really from the devil and joseph will spend eterinty with his father in the lake of fire for deceiving people.
Glad a post was done on this. I read this ensign back in July and was shocked that this story was used to compare the Mormon gospel plan. Not shocked because of inaccuracy but because I can’t believe my LDS family will read this as inspiring. That July Ensign had a couple other articles in that issue that were unbelievable. Like johnepsitle said, If I used this kind of example with my family I would have been accused of being all sorts of unfair and biased.
It’s sad that if any of us said that story to make a point we would be wrong. It’s sad shem feels it is doctrine. Yet no lds are replying either way, that’s also no surprise.
This is really good! I mean really, really good.
It captures Mormonism, the SLC LDS sect perfectly.
These folks have to “earn” it. That’s why any discussion of grace with a Mormon is totally futile because they don’t even know the meaning of the word. This is clearly demonstrated by this woman’s article in the Ensign.
I know a couple of Mormons who won’t even make it on the plane much less get into coach or first class. Quite frankly they are too poor to pay the fright necessary to make it to the big show in the sky, the Celestial Kingdom. They don’t have the resources, financial or otherwise to become a god or a goddess.
You’d think LDS Inc. would come up with some sort of transfer of wealth program to get these folks to a temple, buy them the costumes and pay some sort of admission tithe for them. What is the LDS church doing sitting on all that money? They ought to be using it to fund the poor within their sect to do the work necessary to become a god and secure a mansion in the Celestial Kingdom.
There are a lot of rich Mormons who could do something for the poor to expedite the process.
Do they serve tea or coffee in first class?
What do we know?
We know that the SLC LDS religion bears no resemblance to first century Christianity. This article nails it. The writers of the NT tell us who God is and what his plan of salvation entails. Mormonism, as practiced by the LDS sect, isn’t even a distant cousin of what is revealed in the Bible and contained in the history of the Christian faith and the traditions of the (Church).
It’s a real shame that these LDS folks are trapped in a religious sect that is all about serving the system, not God, in order to get on that conveyor belt that they hope will lead them to personal deification.
My guess is that many of the LDS members leave the sect just because they get worn out by all of the expectations of the system. They can never get good enough to satisfy the system that demands total devotion to the cult.
I can’t imagine how good the freedom feels when they leave.
Falcon said : ” We know that the SLC LDS religion bears no resemblance to first
century Christianity . ”
The claim of Mormonism about this issue is : it alone constitutes the very same
church , personally supervised by the very same Jesus , with the very same gospel
of salvation( Rom 1:16 ) that existed in the first century ministry of His apostles ,
i.e. the Mormon church claims it is the one true church of Jesus restored to the
earth in exactly the same form as it existed when Jesus established it 2000 years ago.
That type of claim can be very alluring to people who are thinking about following
Jesus , or perhaps looking for a church home , etc. Sadly , but there is no shortage
of counterfeits in these times .
Thankfully there are Christian ministries that can inform people about important
aspects about Mormonism that they won’t likely hear from the church’s P.R. Dept.
or from the Missionaries .
When you think about the Mormon works program you can see why it makes sense to some people. After all many of us live our lives by the adages that “you don’t get something for nothing” and “you get out of something what you put into it” and “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”. In-other-words, a person has to put in effort to garner some sort of gain or reward. Also we would agree that there are no guaranteed outcomes. That pretty much summarizes the LDS gospel.
As Mike points out, there’s just enough “Jesus talk” in the LDS gospel to make it appear to be Christian in nature. Anyone who reads the Bible can clearly see who God is and what His plan of salvation entails. It has nothing to do with people putting on costumes, going to temples and participating in rituals lifted from the Free Masons.
Here’s the one that really sets the LDS off. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with our behavior resulting in our justification before God. We would all agree that our behavior is an outward sign of our commitment to Christ and (a sign) of having been born again by the Spirit of God. Mormons are doing there works to get a better seat on the plane as we see in the article.
But we can’t add anything to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in paying the debt for our sins. Our behavior shows that we have repented and come to Christ in faith. The second part of this is that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But as we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus (continually) cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
I’ve been listening on and off lately to the Catholic Channel on Sirius and the other day there was a discussion about a topic that I’d never really thought about. It came down to whether we are saved by grace or faith. It was sort of hair splitting but it reminded me of what the Bible says about……….for it’s by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourself. It is the gift of God not of works that anyone should boast.
So we could discuss grace vs. faith but I think most of us would say that it is these two things in tandem that secures our salvation based on Jesus sacrifice on the cross. But looking at what the Bible says, our salvation has nothing to do with our works other than to demonstrate who we are in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
The LDS have to either choose their religious system or Jesus. Knowing who Jesus is would be the first step in coming to God.
OK faithful LDS members. You have a choice. You can trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation or you can trust the LDS system with its rules, regulations, rituals and works.
You can trust the revelation that is in the NT or you can choose Joseph Smith’s “revelation”. Let me point out that the gospel revealed in the NT hasn’t changed. Smith’s faux gospel changes every time the new “prophet” changes his sacred undergarment.
You folks can trust in your religious system and your own efforts. I’ll trust in Jesus and what He did for me on the cross; something I could never do on my own no matter how hard I tried. The Law shows us how impossible it is to secure our own salvation.
If there are any “rewards” to be earned in this Christian life, they are jewels in our crowns that we will throw at the feet of Jesus in praise and honor of Him.
Falcon, you’re right the Mormon people must make a choice of which gospel to
embrace . Either the original taught by the apostles in the N.T. ( Rom 1:16 ;Col. 1:23 )
or , the one introduced 1800 years later by men claiming also to be apostles .
It’s a common theme among those who arise in the latter days claiming to be prophets
to claim some connection to the prophets/apostles mentioned in the Bible . This is a
good way to fool people into thinking the gospel they’re hearing is endorsed by Jesus.
Receiving visitations from men like Peter, or John the Baptist , or angels , and even
from Jesus Himself is a good way to sell imitation gospels .
What is in the Bible relative to what is necessary to know who God /Jesus are and
what is in the New Testament relative how to be forgiven , reconciled to God and be
given a salvation in the fullest , is available to all , and has been for centuries well
before the first Mormon prophet ever appeared on the scene to revise what Jesus’
original apostles taught , by introducing requirements — so called “restored” truths .
The LDS folks have to face the truth. The gospel that they have embraced is not the gospel revealed in the Bible.
What God has revealed in the Bible is that He offers us a free gift. We don’t deserve it. We can’t earn it. He extends this gift to us out of his mercy and love. That’s what a gift is.
He says in His word this very thing. He says through the apostle Paul that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus Our Lord.
The LDS gospel says first of all that they too can become gods. Total blasphemy, but this is the sort of thing that attracts people in cults. The more preposterous an idea is, the more convoluted, the more those trapped in a cult will embrace it. It’s the attraction. It’s the very idea that it is preposterous and convoluted that makes cult members believe that they have special insight and spiritual sensitivity.
Now should we call Mormonism a cult and those that embrace it cult members? After all these people don’t believe it’s so. For the most part they are very nice, sincere people devoted to their religions. However their minds have been twisted to a degree that they believe they have the truth.
I believe that it is God through His Holy Spirit that people are called to salvation and through God’s grace they will receive the gift of eternal life that He is offering them.
There’s no organization on earth through which men and women can be saved. It’s only in coming to Jesus in faith that will secure our salvation.
Today is the day of salvation!
I hesitate to call the lds a cult. When people ask me about my departure and use that terminology with me, I tend to use the phrase “cult light”.
But as days go by and I know now how wrong it is, I am starting more and more to witness how cult like it really is. Last week in Sunday school some woman started spouting nonsense about how the churches doctrine NEVER changes! And everyone agreed!! My wife and I just looked at each other and rolled our eyes. Mind boggling can’t even describe it.
johnnyboy, for me personally I do not use the word ” cult” to describe Mormons since this
is such a hot button term it tends to quickly produce too much of a defensive attitude which
I find hinders the dialogue, the Mormon people need to hear the truth about Jesus so I hope
they will listen , etc. I do remind them though about false prophets today who can be polite
well dressed individuals who talk about living a righteous lifestyle that glorifies God and that
this can fool many sincere people into embracing their other teachings , such as about God /
salvation , etc. Because Jesus fore warned us all that that these prophets will arise in the latter
days , it is vital that Mormons be aware and test their prophets teachings with God’s Word .
Spiritual safety is at stake .
That Mormon woman believes that the church’s doctrine never changes ?
Well, in 1946 Mormon professor Hugh Nibley claimed : ” Yet of all the churches in the world
only this one has not found it necessary to readjust any part of it’s doctrine in the last 100
years . ”
That’s quite the claim .
May God open the eyes of the Mormon people to see their predictament : Matt 24 : 11.
It’s great to see that you’ve been set free from the religious organization created by Joseph
and have traded that for following Jesus for who He is .
God bless you and your family .
Johnnyboy & Mike R
The 1913 Webster dictionary which I have seen Mormons use, defines the cult as
“1. Attentive care; homage; worship;
“2. A system of religious belief & worship.”
Using that definition a Mormon can feel proud for being part of a cult but, language & words evolve; meanings change over the years & the very same dictionary, (renamed Merriam-Webster in 1982) now defines the word as,
“A small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous.”
If it comes up in conversation I have no problems in calling the LDS a cult because that’s exactly what it is whichever definition is used.
Having said that I do my best to avoid causing offence & will always explain, should the question arise, why I call it a cult. If the truth offends them I’m sorry but calling the LDS a cult can be no more offensive to them than telling the truth about Jo Smith or the BofM.
I well remember the extreme reaction of my ex when, some years ago, I attempted to tell her about the financial wheeling & dealing of the LDS, she literally screamed at me. Her reaction was far worse than when I called her beloved LDS a cult.
I guess the best way is to play it by ear; so much depends on the person we’re talking to. 🙂
JB,
I think that you meant “lite” and not “light”. Not that I’m the editor in charge here but I know cults like to say they have “light” which of course they don’t.
Do you still attend some ward activities?
Mike,
I would agree that using the word “cult” could be a real turn-off to Mormons and I’m probably the worst offender here. No defense except that I get passionate when I’m pounding my keyboard.
Wisconsin football coach Gary Andersen obviously didn’t take the article in the Ensign to heart. I’m guessing Coach Anderson is a Mormon judging from this part of his bio:
“Andersen began his football career playing center at Ricks College (now Brigham Young University–Idaho), where he received first-team junior college All-America honors in 1984. He then transferred to the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, where he lettered on the football team for two years before graduating in 1986 with a bachelor’s degree in political science.”
Now for an excerpt from a recent column in the Wisconsin State Journal about the first year head coach:
“How many coaches turn over the first-class cabin of charter flights to the seniors?”
“That’s been the case for all three UW trips thus far. On the way back from Illinois last week, Andersen could be found in a window seat in the 12th row of coach, sharing time and space with true freshman linebacker Leon Jacobs.”
Read more: http://host.madison.com/now/andy-baggot-gary-andersen-unique-in-coaching-business/article_f0591d37-49f2-5cd7-9437-7bc3695797e1.html#ixzz2ixNbzJCX
Mike R knows that I’m a fanatical Badger fan as he is for the Wyoming Cowboys.
On an April night in 1972, alone in my house, sitting on the edge of the bed in my bedroom, I bowed my head and gave up. I surrendered to God and pledged my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
A magnificent thing happened that night. God placed me in first class.
Since that time, so many years ago, I’ve grown in knowledge, understanding, wisdom, maturity and I’ve done a lot of works. But here’s the deal. I’m still sitting in first class. I haven’t moved. I haven’t gone back in coach and I certainly haven’t become the pilot. I’ve remained steadfast in my first class seat.
God gave me that position based on my faith. All that I’ve done as a believer in Christ hasn’t changed my position. I’m as saved today as I was on that night I confessed my faith in Jesus. There really wasn’t anything else to gain other than my salvation; my position before God as saved through what Jesus did for me.
I’ll always be in first class.
Go Pokes!
Falcon, I join you in testifying of being saved by Jesus ! This happened when I was in 6th
grade vacation Bible school . I surrendered my heart to Him and confessed my need for
Him as Savior because I was confronted with the penalty that my sins would bring —-eternal
separation from God . I was instantly pardoned and was given the gift of eternal life , something
my young mind could not fully process — it was so intensely humbling . That’s been a long time
ago and I ‘ve lived to experience a wonderful daily praise and worship of Jesus .
MJP , don’t get me started 🙂
Isn’t God’s grace beautiful? No need to earn anything– only believe.
And Mike, tough couple of weeks. I was in Laramie for the CSU debacle.
@falcon
Hahah. Yes. Lite, not light. I always type on my iphone so I’m usually doing something else or auto correct changes what I am writing. I need an assistant comment thread editor. I’ll be taking any applications 😉
My wife and I are still attending till the end of the year when we move out of the ward. The only people we have told are our parents and non mormon friends.
Good news is my wife finally told her parents and they took it really well. They are even open to researching what we have told them. My parents on the other hand, had a complete freak out and refuse to even acknowledge what we try to tell them
Just the fact that I even feel the need to keep my Mormon exodus private tells how ingrained the cult mentality is within the lds church. I deal with a lot of members in business outside of church, and I am on the fence about telling people now. I know if people find out, they will ask me about it and I am not going to hold my tongue at that point.
I just don’t want to be the reason for someone else’s life to be disrupted by my problems with the church.
JB,
I empathize with you situation but to be truthful I can’t relate to it. Those here who are former Mormons get it loud and clear.
I was in church yesterday; my wife and I have been attending there for about a year-and-a-half. My goal has been to not be involved. Just remain way under the radar. Come in, get my coffee and doughnut, enjoy the edgy modern worship music, the good preaching and slip back out the door. We have met a lot of very nice people though, very sincere and welcoming, but I’m struggling with what to do when we get invited to things.
I know, I sound anti-social, but I have a mild phobia about involvement. I was the king of involvement for years with various things including lay pastor work.
Believe it or not, MC is my sort of congregation and ministry outreach work. I tell my wife that I have two relationships that I invest in heavily in my life; her and our young adult child. I heard Dr. Keith Ablow say that it’s not “nuts” to not have a zillion relationships/friends. So I’m vindicated.
Oh, I forgot the dogs! They do see me as pack leader and the one they look to to meet their needs.
johnnyboy, I’m praying that God will give you just the right words to say to those who
find out you no longer submit to the false apostles who run the Mormon Church.
Like Falcon I too can’t relate to your situation . My wife and I will be praying for your family.
Keep us posted .
MJP, ” the CSU debacle ” ? That’s a good way to describe it . It hurt to see the Bronze Boot
be taken away , but by giving up 52 points ? ouch .
You know , when I think about how the Mormon people have been bamboozled by their apostles
into embracing a counterfeit gospel , that is what really hurts me . I’m glad that we can in some
small way be a part of a ministry that loves them and wants to remind them to stop and take the
time to look into the Bible and test what their apostles have taught about God / Jesus/ salvation .
There’s complete acceptance , forgiveness , freedom from the weight of sin , and the fullness of
salvation waiting for those who walk out the door of their Ward and straight to Jesus and bow
before Him . No prophet , no secret temple rituals , just Jesus — Jn 14:6 ; Heb 7:25 .
It saddens me, too, that LDS are induced into following a false religion. It saddens me most when confronted with the true Gospel their hearts and minds shut down. I pray that somehow our interactions with LDS affect them positively, even minutely.
Freedom is only found in Christ, and not in a church, even if the church is supposedly the way to Christ. Christ alone provides freedom. Its simply beautiful how Christ loves us.
Mike– basketball season’s coming up soon. 52 points from the your biggest rival in a game you should win is disheartening, to be sure.
Mike R.
Way off topic but did you know the Badgers are playing BYU in football this year?
I remember Lynn Wilder’s testimony of how she started to read the NT and said she purposed that all she’d focus on were the words of Jesus.
Funny thing happened. She left Mormonism.
It is not possible to, in any sort of honesty and intellectual integrity, to reconcile Mormonism with the Bible. First of all Joseph Smith had to say that the original gospel was lost after the death of the apostles; a gigantomongus lie. Then the Bible had to be seen as untrustworthy and that the word of the modern day Mormon “prophets” was the reliable guide for spiritual truth; another major whooper!
Mormons who are here seeking truth need to find it some where other than the LDS church. They’ve proven time and again to be totally unreliable and quite frankly the promoters of lies.
Falcon,
To those Mormons , Like Lynn, who make time in their busy lives to sit down and study the
New Testament there is only good that can come of it , because they can find out if they
have the truth or if they’ve embraced a good counterfeit gospel . The claims made by Mormon
authorities must be evaluated by searching the scriptures to see they are true . Since the Bible
has rightly been called ” the bedrock of all christianity ” , then that’s the proper place to start
an evaluation of the claims of all those in the latter days who arise and claim they’ve heard
from God to be His exclusive prophet , the leader in Jesus’ church .
Mormon authorities have taught that it is the very same church , in the exact form , with
the same gospel of salvation , which existed in the first century church . These truths have
been restored because shortly after the death of Jesus’ original apostles a total/complete
apostasy from the gospel taught by Jesus and His apostles , and the church ceased to exist
on the earth , Christianity died off . Then 1700 years later the gospel of salvation was again
available to mankind —-restored by God through a Mormon prophet .
Those are the claims , they need to be tested—– to much is at stake 2Tim 4:3-4 ; Matt 7:15 .
May the Mormon people who want to know if they are spiritually safe in these perilous latter
times receive this good advice : 1 Jn 4:1 ; Rev 2:2 .
Badgers by 17 ?
I wasn’t going to make any comment on this thread as it doesn’t really interest me. However, as I have been mentioned I feel the need to say a few things in regards to that.
Now, it has been liked that I have called the Ensign scripture, and I would like to clarify. What I actually said was this:
“the Ensign is an official publication of the church, and is considered as doctrinal as the scriptures.”
Later I stated “I gave two quotes from the Ensign, which is a publication that is overseen by the Prophet and nothing is printed in it without his approval. The Ensign declares the doctrine of the church, not the opinions of individuals.”
In my first statement I made an error. Rather than saying the Ensign is as doctrinal as scripture I should have said that the ensign is doctrinal like scripture. I have never held the Ensign to be equal to the standard works in any way, and I apologize for giving that impression. These kinds of publications, though official, are not held to that same regard. The standard works are the standard, and even the Ensign is judged according to them on matters of doctrine.
I must also give the following information. One of the two quotes I gave from the Ensign was from a section entitled “I Have a Question.” This section begins with the statement “Questions of general gospel interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy.” So, while these are approved by the First Presidency for publication, and are given to help the membership in understanding and living the gospel, they are not given as statements of policy. They are still good for instruction and understanding however, which is why I use them and stand by them for the purpose of teaching and learning the LDS faith and doctrine.
Johnsepistle
“here we find a Mormon periodical carrying that same analogy as told by a Mormon, highlighting the coldness of the Mormon ‘plan of salvation’.”
First of all, I think this illustrates the point very well, and it would be foolish for anyone to get upset about.
Second, I see great mercy and compassion in this story, as well as in the truths of the Gospel. Note that while the woman could not go up to see her husband, he could come back to see her. This is true of the eternal worlds. Those in a lower Kingdom cannot go up, but they will all have the opportunity of seeing at least one member of the Godhead as well as having loved ones in a Higher Kingdom come to visit them. They are not cut off completely.
On the other hand (and please correct me if I am wrong) for most Christians those who don’t make it to heaven never get any part of God’s presence and never again have association with their loved ones who are in heaven. They are completely cut off; they can’t visit heaven and heaven can’t visit them.
This has always been one of the most astounding differences between our doctrine. For the average Christian God has great mercy for those that have faith and thus enter heaven, but no mercy for those who do not. For us God extends his mercy to all men, and unless they reject it outright all men will experience His mercy throughout all eternity.
And just note that the very doctrine of the Kingdoms of Glory is based in Mercy. No unclean thing can be in God’s presence, but in his mercy he brings all men as close to him as he possibly can. To those in the Telestial Kingdom being any closer to God would be a torment because they are unclean, and so God, in his mercy, gives them that lower kingdom, because it is where they will live eternity with the least discomfort.
Shem, I’d respond that you are correct in that believers will go to heaven, and non-believers will not. But I’d also respond that its a matter of perfection. Only the perfect can enter God’s kingdom. The only perfect are those who have accepted the covering of Christ of their sins. These are those who believe and accept the sacrifice Christ made for all of us.
Not accepting this sacrifice is the same as rejecting it. Its plain. Its there for all see and hear. For those who have not heard, Jesus will somehow work that out, as in Romans we read that God’s plan is written everywhere and can be discerned by all.
Mercy is not applied to those who do not accept God’s gift through His son. God, don’t forget, is not just a God of mercy, he is also a God of justice. Therefore, God’s justice, which requires death to those who are stained by sin, demands those who reject Him be damned.
You are free to find this cold and disheartening. But God is not all about gooey, happy feelings. God is about one thing only: righteousness. Only the righteous are justified (made perfect), and are justified through faith. The thing is, though, this offer is open to everyone. No one who accepts Christ, the true Christ, will be rejected.
Shem said ,blockquote>Those in a lower Kingdom cannot go up, but they will all have the opportunity of seeing at least one member of the Godhead as well as having loved ones in a Higher Kingdom come to visit them. They are not cut off completely.
To those in the Telestial Kingdom being any closer to God would be a torment because they are unclean, and so God, in his mercy, gives them that lower kingdom, because it is where they will live eternity with the least discomfort.
Pure fiction, This cannot be proven by the Bible in anyway.
1 Cor 6:9-10 says
Not only will they not Inherit, but they wont even see anything in or near it.
Now Shem also said
You really need to read the Bible better, It says we are all Enemies of God.
We are ALL ENEMIES of God, every single one of us, and we all deserve death. But it was Because Jesus Died and Shed his blood for us that we can be reconciled to God and no longer are we called and Enemy.
But while His enemy, we cannot enter into his presence and He does not show mercy to those that are His enemy. The Only mercy He showed us as enemy’s was that He Died for us, Now we need to believe, otherwise if we choose not to believe, we will be condemned. For version cannot be shown from the Bible.
MJP
“God, don’t forget, is not just a God of mercy, he is also a God of justice.”
I have never denied God’s justice, and the LDS doctrine does not deny it. God is perfectly just, and he is perfectly merciful, and that is why there are multiple levels of glory. It is a more merciful and a more just system.
“You are free to find this cold and disheartening. But God is not all about gooey, happy feelings. God is about one thing only: righteousness.”
And I can say the same thing about our doctrine. I was addressing a comment by Johnsepistle to the effect that our doctrine is cold and diheartening and I was explaining why I disagree with that opinion. I was not expressing and opinion concerning your doctrine, except in how it compared to ours. I never said that your doctrine was cold and disheartening, only that it does not have the same level of mercy that ours does. There is a difference.
Rick
“Not only will they not Inherit, but they wont even see anything in or near it.”
First of all, the Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom, and nothing else. The lesser degrees, though minister too and ruled over by God, are not a part of what is known as the Kingdom of God. So, 1 Corinthians 6 is perfectly accurate that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God because they will not enter the Celestial Kingdom.
However, the Bible does clearly state that all those who commit these very sins will eventually be forgiven and brought out of Hell, and thus there must be a place between the two extremes reserved for these people.
Matthew 12: 31 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.”
All sins except one will be forgiven.
Psalms 16: 10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…”
The soul that is cast into hell can be brought out again.
Revelation 20: 12 “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
Those who are cast into hell as death will be brought back out again to be judged, and God will not leave their souls in hell, but place them in a lesser glory.
Now, I know you won’t accept this, but the Bible does teach it.
You also need to read the Bible better. Nowhere does it say that God stop showing his mercy to anyone. The natural man is an enemy to God, and will pay the price of his sins. But once that price is paid he will be brought out of Hell. He is not reconciled to God, but God still loves him, and his mercy will be there.
Remember that God also preached to the spirits in prison so that they may be judged according to men in the flesh (1 Peter 4: 6). He gives all me every opportunity to improve their lives and achieve the greatest eternal reward they can. Many cannot attain to the Kingdom of Heaven because they lived wickedly in this life, but his mercy is still extended to them to raise them as high as he can.
Shem,
You seem to do just as your prophets do, and thats make stuff up as you go.
You simply cannot show me from the Bible and verse(s) that state your 3 levels of heaven and who goes their and why.
Read all of Luke for the full context, but here is this
Notice the Rich man is in torment, and this unlike you will say is a story or a figure of speech, he really is in torment, He asks for water to cool his tongue, Then Abraham says, we cannot come to you and you cannot to us. So He asks Him to send people to His brothers to warn them to not come to this place and be tormented also. Again, Abraham claim the brothers have the OT, Moses and even if someone rose from the dead, they will not believe.
Abraham and Jesus never say, just bide your time, you will be out soon, your brothers have nothing to fear, it wont last but a moment. They are never told that it will end.
They will go from bad to worse, they will go from Hell where they are awaiting their final judgment, and then they go to the lake of fire that burns forever. Read in Rev about the lake of Fire, we see the beast and false prophet get tossed in, then we read about the devil getting tossed in 1000 years later where we read the beast and false prophet are still being tormented and no evidence to suggest they will be getting out.
Joseph Smith along with all other false prophets, and anyone who rejects Jesus are in hell waiting the final judgment and then will spend all of eternity in the lake that burns with fire. Sadly that is where you are headed and you are just running as fast as you can to get their while you reject the truth and believe the false prophets who you call Men of God. You are being warned by God, stop rejecting Him in favor of the false prophets you are believing.
Wait, shem, something stinks here… You told me before that people cannot move from kingdom to kingdom….
and a god who fails to give people what they deserve is not a just god.
Pure gobbledegook. I don’t even know how to explain to Shem how ridiculous and circular his reasoning is here. This is the result of life in the Bubble. Insanity.
Then why baptize EVERYONE who has died in temples if only those who are qualified for the Celestial Kingdom are the only ones who will benefit? Since the Church is run by “revelation” and we have 15 “prophets, seers, & revelators”, wouldn’t it save a lot of money and time if they just sent them lists and God told them that “yep, dunk that one”, or “nope, don’t bother”. They do this for missionaries, don’t they? Or better yet, since they have “the keys”, why not ordain special “seers” that can do this? Imagine the time and money they would save! Obviously, poor Jo never thought this through…