On September 24th Mormon Apostle D. Todd Christofferson spoke to students at BYU-Idaho during the school’s weekly devotional. About halfway through his talk, “The Prophet Joseph Smith,” Mr. Christofferson explained,
“Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling is key to our religion. Without his commission from the Father and the Son, without his priesthood ordinations and the keys he received at the hands of duly appointed heavenly messengers, without the fullness of the gospel restored through his visions and revelations and his translations of the Book of Mormon and the Bible, what we would have is something much less than true Christianity.”
Past Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie clarified that
“Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism; they are one and the same, and they are not to be distinguished from each other in the minutest detail” (Mormon Doctrine, 513).
Yet the fact remains that Mormonism is unique in its doctrines – it does differ from all Christian churches in many minute and momentous details. Mr. Christofferson’s clarification that true Christianity is only to be found within the Mormon Church resonates with the teachings of earlier Mormon apostles. Consider:
“However, true Christianity, so far as the latter days are concerned, is very young, less than one hundred years of age, for it has only been since the year 1830 that the Church of Jesus Christ has been organized in the earth, and the gospel restored…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Reports, April 1924, 41).
“This (LDS) Church is ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ (D. & C. 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almighty to preach his gospel and administer the ordinances of salvation, the only church which has power to save and exalt men in the hereafter.” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 136)
In fact, calling other faiths “Christian” is misleading, according to Mr. McConkie:
“The term [Christendom] applies to the whole body of supposed Christian believers; as now constituted this body is properly termed apostate Christendom… A perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom.” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 131-132)
Furthermore,
“…virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ…” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 269).
If this is all true, why does the Mormon Church insist on telling the world that, “Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology”? Is one a Christian, then, apart from Christianity? Is one a Christian while worshiping a mythical Christ? This is nonsense.
Many Mormons are upset when evangelicals state that (and explain why) Mormonism isn’t Christianity. They may be upset, but at least they know where they stand in relation to Christ and salvation. Christians are honest and consistent in the defining of the Christian faith and in the defining of what it means to be a Christian. Mormonism, on the other hand, uses the terms “Christian” and “true Christianity” interchangeably with “apostate Christian” and “perverted Christianity.” It makes no distinction in the public square between “Christ” and what it calls Christendom’s “mythical Christ.” Apostle Bruce McConkie said, “there is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Mormon Doctrine, 670), yet the Mormon Church tells people, “Faithful Christians who are not Latter-day Saints still go to heaven.”
From a biblical Christian perspective, as Aaron Shafovaloff has pointed out elsewhere,
The scandal isn’t that evangelicals won’t call Mormons “Christian.” The scandal is that Mormons are willing to call someone “Christian” who, in their present state and path, faces an eternity of separation from Jesus.
Mormons are willing to call someone who:
- doesn’t have forgiveness
- doesn’t have justification
- doesn’t have eternal life
- hasn’t been adopted by the Father
- doesn’t have the gift of the Holy Ghost
…a Christian.
Of course, Mormonism can’t preach a gospel that it does not own. Nevertheless, God will hold all false teachers accountable. In the Book of Jeremiah the LORD exposes the false prophets who “have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace” (Jeremiah 8:11). Scandalous indeed are the false prophets who comfort the perishing with peaceful words when there is no peace – words that bring false comfort to those who desperately need Christ.
Shem
“This would be an example of your ranting that you wanted in a previous post. You say nothing of any value, but simply give a brief rant on how evil and vile our religion is.”
I suppose that to your mind anyone who speaks the truth in a forthright way is ranting. That’s fine by me Shem but if you hope to stop me ‘ranting’ by the use of such language you are sadly mistaken. You make no attempt to give a genuine answer to what I say & I can only assume it’s because you can’t.
“Yes, I believe we have the authority, given by God to men on Earth. It was given through proper ordination, just as Aaron received his authority through ordination from Moses, as Paul declares to the Jews is required (Hebrews 5: 4). I really couldn’t care less what your opinion of this is, as I know that is true and nothing you say can ever change that.”
Why do you quote Hebrews 5:4 you wont find any support for your beliefs there, why don’t you read the entire chapter? The first 4 verses of chapter 5 defines the office of High Priest & verses 5-10 tells us how Christ meets the standards required. Paul isn’t making a case for an Aaronic or any other priesthood, he is merely using Aaron as an example of the way God calls people to service. The way you use 5:4 is yet another example of the way LDS members take a verse in isolation in a pathetic attempt to prove their false doctrines.
I’m not interested in changing your mind. It is God who changes peoples minds, not me. I come in here to show the truth to those in your organization who are having doubts.
You say you know that what you believe is true but the fact is YOU DON’T KNOW. Because you ‘feel’ something is true doesn’t make it so & please don’t tell me that the Spirit tells you what is true because you have never tested the spirits. 1 John 4:1
I’ve said this before & I’ll say it again, the beliefs & doctrines of the LDS are founded not on the teachings of Christ, but on the Old Testament, you live in the O/T you eat & drink O/T & there is very little of Christ in LDS beliefs.
MJP
Please explain what in my last post was so confusing?
Old Man
I know the context of the verses I sight, I just feel it is simplier to give the most relevant verse and let the reader look it up to varify what I am saying. That is common and a perfectly acceptable practice is all forms of communication. So don’t try to ridicule me for it, as many people here like to do.
Second of all, don’t tell me what I know and what I don’t know. You once yelled at me for being arrogant when I offered a different perspective to a story you once told. Maybe you should take a thought about such things yourself. I know what I know, and I know how I know it, and your arrogance doesn’t change the truth of it.
Thirdly, don’t tell me what I have and haven’t done because you are not a witness to my life and likely never will be. I have tried the spirits, and I find that the spirit of Christ is found only in this church, which is, again, a truth that nothing you do will ever change.
Now, considering that the Old Testament is a testament of Christ, and that Christ is found in everything that is recorded there, to say we are in the Old Testament and yet have little of Christ shows your own ignorance of Scripture. The Old Testament teaches all men of Christ, and all the ordinances and rituals it contains were instituted to point mens’ minds to Christ, and even then people knew that it was only through the atonement of Christ that they could hope for salvation. I have no problem being in such great company as Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Isaiah, Elijah, or any of the great men that testified to all people that it is only in and through Christ that they could ever hope to be saved, and we declare that same message. If you have a problem with that than that is for you to deal with.
Shem
“I know the context of the verses I cite, I just feel it is simpler to give the most relevant verse and let the reader look it up to verify what I am saying. That is common and a perfectly acceptable practice is all forms of communication. So don’t try to ridicule me for it, as many people here like to do.”
I have never tried to ridicule you, that is not my way. The reason I talk about context is because it is common practice among ALL deviant groups to take verses out of context so as to distort the original & intended meaning. We aren’t talking about all forms of communication here; we’re talking about ancient documents that must be read & interpreted in their historical context. There is very rarely a ‘most relevant verse’ in scripture; it is normal practice to determine meaning by including surrounding verses or even the entire chapter.
“Second of all, don’t tell me what I know and what I don’t know. …….I know what I know, and I know how I know it, and your arrogance doesn’t change the truth of it.”
I could give you many examples of how I ‘know’ that I have the truth. What you’re doing is turning a subjective experience into an objective one. You don’t KNOW you’re right any more than I do. You just ‘believe’ you are because your subjective experiences tell you that you are. So where does that leave us? It leaves us with Gods word alone & we must translate & interpret that as best we can but at the same time be in accord with the proven rules of interpretation.
You accuse me of arrogance, of ranting & raving, of yelling at you. So let me say this. I do not rant or rave at anyone & because I use upper case to emphasize certain words or phrases does not mean that I am yelling. I am forthright but being forthright does not make a person arrogant.
I have no quarrel at all with you as a person but if you choose to set yourself up as an apologist for a deceptive, & manipulative business organization that poses as a church for the financial rewards that may be reaped, a church moreover that is prepared to lead gullible people to destruction, then I will be as forthright as the occasion demands. If you put yourself in the firing line to defend false prophets who hide behind people like you rather than go to the front-line themselves then you can expect to get shot at. The Apostles never held back when confronting false teachings & neither will I. Would you accuse Paul of arrogance for what he said in Galatians 1:8 ?
“I have tried the spirits, and I find that the spirit of Christ is found only in this church, which is, again, a truth that nothing you do will ever change.”
Now who’s being arrogant?. How would you know that Christ is found only in your church, when you have probably never belonged to a genuine Christian church? Perhaps you are trying the wrong spirits; we are told in 1 John 4:1 to test what we believe against Gods revealed word. When that test is PROPERLY applied LDS doctrine disappears like a puff of smoke in a strong breeze.
Old Man
Yes, you do ridicule, and you do rant, and those are just in your nature it seems. When you try to characterize my faith as a business set up for monetary gain that is an attempt to cause contemptous feelings in those that you are addressing, and that is the very definition of ridicule. Yes, you are arrogant, because in one sentence you try to discredit what I say as subjective, admitting that all you have is subjective as well; and then almost immediately you tell me that you have the proven truth because of your subjective methods of interpretation. So please, stop the cherade.
1 John 4: 1
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
So, tell me exactly where in this verse it says to try the spirits by the revealed word. It doesn’t, and you know it. All it says is to try them, which I have done, and which you have no proof that I haven’t.
Using the Bible I still come to the conclusion that this is the only church that has the full and true spirit of Christ.
“How would you know that Christ is found only in your church, when you have probably never belonged to a genuine Christian church?”
First of all, I belong to the only Genuine Christian church on the face of the earth.
Second of all, why do I need to go to any other church when Christ has already told me that he is not in them. In other words, if my father told me he wasn’t in a bar, why would I look for him there? Christ has revealed his truth, and his church, and has declared to me that he is nowhere else. So why would I look for him anywhere else?
Shem
“Yes, you do ridicule, and you do rant, and those are just in your nature it seems. When you try to characterize my faith as a business set up for monetary gain that is an attempt to cause contemptous feelings in those that you are addressing, and that is the very definition of ridicule. Yes, you are arrogant, because in one sentence you try to discredit what I say as subjective, admitting that all you have is subjective as well; and then almost immediately you tell me that you have the proven truth because of your subjective methods of interpretation. So please, stop the cherade..”
How can telling the truth be an attempt to cause contemptuous feelings? The truth is the truth & how people react to it is entirely up to them.
I never once said that I had ‘the proven truth’ so why are you saying that I did? I am becoming a little tired of the way you attempt to twist & distort everything I say. These were my exact words & they are totally different to what you say.
“So where does that leave us? It leaves us with Gods word alone & we must translate & interpret that as best we can but at the same time be in accord with the proven rules of interpretation.”
Instead of making personal attacks on my character it might be more productive if you attempted to show me where I am wrong. As you can’t do that you resort to the normal & much used Mormon tactic of ad-hominen attacks. All you actually succeed in doing with your continual misrepresentation & personal attacks is to show people the true face of Mormonism.
“So, tell me exactly where in this verse it says to try the spirits by the revealed word. It doesn’t, and you know it. All it says is to try them, which I have done, and which you have no proof that I haven’t.”
I think you need to understand 1 John 4:1 a little better. Testing the spirits simply means putting to the test (of Gods word) the doctrines put forth by those claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. ‘Every spirit’ is referring to false prophets & teachers as is clearly shown by the second part of that verse. If a doctrine is given that contradicts what God has already revealed by the Holy Spirit i.e. through the Apostles, then those doctrines are to be discarded. Don’t tell me that I am wrong when I say to test your doctrine against Gods revealed word for that is exactly what John is telling us to do.
By the way, I didn’t say you hadn’t tried the spirits, I said ‘perhaps you are trying the wrong spirits’
“First of all, I belong to the only Genuine Christian church on the face of the earth.
Second of all, why do I need to go to any other church when Christ has already told me that he is not in them..”
Joseph Smith told you that, not Christ.
“Using the Bible I still come to the conclusion that this is the only church that has the full and true spirit of Christ.”
You say by using the Bible, ok. Show us your evidence for that claim? It’s a fact that there is only one true church so give us the scriptural evidence to show that it is yours.
Because, Shem, you speak out of both sides of your mouth– at least your leaders do. Think about it some. Can you do that?
Old Man
You said “By the way, I didn’t say you hadn’t tried the spirits, I said ‘perhaps you are trying the wrong spirits’”
Actually, your originally said “please don’t tell me that the Spirit tells you what is true because you have never tested the spirits.” That was your original claim.
You said ““So where does that leave us? It leaves us with Gods word alone & we must translate & interpret that as best we can but at the same time be in accord with the proven rules of interpretation.”
In other words, because you follow these rules you have the truth and I don’t because I don’t follow them. Your rules are subjective in themselves and thus have no more wait for determining truth than the methods we use. But the clear implication of your statement is that they do. Your method is the right method, and no other method will ever find the truth. That is arrogant.
Now, I agree that testing doctrines needs to be done through a study of the scriptures, but not the testing of spirits, which is what John is talking about. A person can have sound doctrine and not have the spirit of Christ, and they can have corrupt doctrine and yet have the spirit of Christ.
You said “How can telling the truth be an attempt to cause contemptuous feelings?”
Please. You are not telling the truth, but are rather giving a characterized version for the purpose of establishing a derogatory perception. You can attempt to deny this all you want, but that only makes you a hypocrite.
You said “Show us your evidence for that claim?”
I have in the past, and you simply reply with “Well, you just don’t understand the scripture” or “You aren’t taking that in context.”
You have no desire to learn what I believe or why I believe it. Your only desire is to not believe it and to prevent as many people as you can from believing it. When you are willing to discuss without ridicule and personal attacks then I will be willing to show you what and why I believe, and I will use only the Bible to do so. But until you are willing for such a discussion there is no point in me trying to explain anything.
MJP
You said “Because, Shem, you speak out of both sides of your mouth– at least your leaders do. Think about it some. Can you do that?”
Please give an example.
As I explained, the official position of the church has always been that those who believe in Christ as the son of God and savior of the world are Christian, and that all religions have some elements of truth in them. Joseph Smith professed this, and every prophet since has as well.
Elder McConkie, giving an unofficial personal opinion, stated that he believed others should be termed apostate Christianity, basing this opinion of official doctrine, but still giving only an opinion.
I fail to see your objection.
Of course, Shem is playing the “opinion” card again. That is how much scorn he has for those who are called as leaders in his church. Jo himself proves you wrong, because he said the same thing that McConkie did when he recounted his claimed 1820-22 vision, and we have this from his History of the Church:
Joseph F. Smith,
There are plenty more where those came from. Shem speaks in ignorance and doesn’t even know it. That is why anything he says should be ignored as only Shem’s opinion, which is literally worthless.
Of course you fail to see it, Shem.
Shem
“In other words, because you follow these rules you have the truth and I don’t because I don’t follow them. Your rules are subjective in themselves and thus have no more wait for determining truth than the methods we use. But the clear implication of your statement is that they do. Your method is the right method, and no other method will ever find the truth. That is arrogant.”
They are NOT my rules & they are not subjective; they are the accepted rules concerning interpretation, not just of religious matters, but also of all ancient documents. Stop saying that this or that or whatever are MY rules or MY ways as if I dreamed them up. The reason you refuse to accept these rules have nothing to do with them being MY rules but are all to do with the fact that when used properly they do not support your doctrines. Yet again you accuse me of arrogance simply for telling the truth & yes IT IS THE TRUTH. Try doing a little research into the subject before throwing such accusations in my direction.
“Now, I agree that testing doctrines needs to be done through a study of the scriptures, but not the testing of spirits, which is what John is talking about.”
For the last time, John was talking about testing the words of false prophets against the revealed word of God. He was NOT talking about ‘spirits’ or the testing of them, how does one test a spirit? Look at the second part of the verse can you see what it says? “for many false prophets have gone out into the world” That’s who John is talking about, FALSE PROPHETS. True doctrine is given through the Holy Spirit so when John tells us to test the spirits that’s exactly what he means, test which spirit is leading a false prophet against the teachings revealed by the Holy Spirit. Is that so hard to understand? Could it be that you don’t want to understand it for fear that your cherished beliefs will fall apart?
“A person can have sound doctrine and not have the spirit of Christ, and they can have corrupt doctrine and yet have the spirit of Christ.”
I can hardly believe what I am reading, you really believe that? Don’t you know that it is the Spirit of Christ who brings sound doctrine? Corrupt doctrine cannot stand long against the inner witness of the spirit.
“….. You are not telling the truth, but are rather giving a characterized version for the purpose of establishing a derogatory perception. You can attempt to deny this all you want, but that only makes you a hypocrite.”
So now as if arrogance wasn’t enough, you accuse me of lies & hypocrisy. Don’t accuse me of those things if you’re not prepared to show how I have lied. You’re something of an expert in personal attacks presumably because you can’t provide the evidence to back your claims. Well, I & many others can provide evidence that the LDS is a business organization posing as a church; can you provide the evidence to show that it isn’t?
“You have no desire to learn what I believe or why I believe it. Your only desire is to not believe it and to prevent as many people as you can from believing it.”
You’re right when you say I have no desire to learn your beliefs & in saying that I want to prevent as many people as possible from believing it. I already know what the LDS teaches but we’re not talking about beliefs here, we’re talking about providing evidence as to WHY you hold those beliefs. All Christians in here provide evidence for what they believe. We quote from scripture, we don’t take a verse in isolation to prove a doctrine we use several verses & sometimes entire chapters. When are you going to do the same? Now that you have pointed the finger at me let me point one at you. Do you desire to learn what we believe?
“When you are willing to discuss without ridicule and personal attacks then I will be willing to show you what and why I believe, and I will use only the Bible to do so. But until you are willing for such a discussion there is no point in me trying to explain anything.”
You are joking of course? Have you stopped to read what you say about me? You accuse me of arrogance, of ranting & raving, you call me a liar & a hypocrite. You accuse me of ridicule for pointing out the truth. The, to cap it all you have the nerve to tell me I resort to using personal attacks.
What you say above is just a cop out, if you could show me evidence then you would have done so instead of engaging in character assassination.
MJP
So you would say that a Catholic bishop giving an opinion that is not the official stance of the Catholic church to be evidence that the Catholic leaders are talking out of both side’s of their mouths?
That is what you are claiming about this, and no I don’t get it. What people here have always failed to do is to distinguish between the actual teachings and positions of the church as an organization and the personal opinions of the members, regardless of their position.
Old Man
I am done on this thread. It had been going on far too long.
Either you are a hypocrate or you are dilusional. Either way you ridicule me and my faith constantly, and your continued attempts to claim otherwise are simply adding insult.
Catholic Bishops don’t pretend to hold the same authority, Shem.
And there are many, many other differences. I suggest you think about it.
Shem
“I am done on this thread. It had been going on far too long.
Either you are a hypocrate or you are dilusional. Either way you ridicule me and my faith constantly, and your continued attempts to claim otherwise are simply adding insult.”
Yet another insult to add to a list that grows longer by the day, you have now decided that I might be delusional. Tell me something Shem, why is it that you feel free to insult anyone who disagrees with you? I haven’t called you a liar, I haven’t called you arrogant, I haven’t called you a hypocrite or told you that you rant & rave. I haven’t ridiculed you in any way & I haven’t called you delusional so why do you engage in this constant character assassination? Do you believe that it will win the argument for you? Well, let others read our full exchange of views & they can decide if what you say is true. In the light of what you say concerning my character the last couple of posts should be especially enlightening.
All you have really succeeded in doing is to prove to anyone reading this that you are the real hypocrite in here.
Just to follow up on what MJP said, Catholic Bishops or indeed Bishops of any denomination do not have the authority of a prophet. A prophet was Gods mouthpiece & they spoke as such, God did not call them to give their opinions.