True Mormonism

first_vision_1838On September 24th Mormon Apostle D. Todd Christofferson spoke to students at BYU-Idaho during the school’s weekly devotional. About halfway through his talk, “The Prophet Joseph Smith,” Mr. Christofferson explained,

“Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling is key to our religion. Without his commission from the Father and the Son, without his priesthood ordinations and the keys he received at the hands of duly appointed heavenly messengers, without the fullness of the gospel restored through his visions and revelations and his translations of the Book of Mormon and the Bible, what we would have is something much less than true Christianity.”

Past Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie clarified that

“Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mor­monism; they are one and the same, and they are not to be distinguished from each other in the minutest detail” (Mormon Doctrine, 513).

Yet the fact remains that Mormonism is unique in its doctrines – it does differ from all Christian churches in many minute and momentous details. Mr. Christofferson’s clarification that true Christianity is only to be found within the Mormon Church resonates with the teachings of earlier Mormon apostles. Consider:

“However, true Christianity, so far as the latter days are concerned, is very young, less than one hundred years of age, for it has only been since the year 1830 that the Church of Jesus Christ has been organized in the earth, and the gospel restored…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Reports, April 1924, 41).

“This (LDS) Church is ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ (D. & C. 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almighty to preach his gospel and administer the ordinances of salvation, the only church which has power to save and exalt men in the hereafter.” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 136)

In fact, calling other faiths “Christian” is misleading, according to Mr. McConkie:

“The term [Christendom] applies to the whole body of supposed Christian believers; as now constituted this body is properly termed apostate Christendom… A perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom.” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 131-132)


“…virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ…” (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 269).

If this is all true, why does the Mormon Church insist on telling the world that, “Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology”? Is one a Christian, then, apart from Christianity? Is one a Christian while worshiping a mythical Christ?  This is nonsense.

IcebergMany Mormons are upset when evangelicals state that (and explain why) Mormonism isn’t Christianity. They may be upset, but at least they know where they stand in relation to Christ and salvation. Christians are honest and consistent in the defining of the Christian faith and in the defining of what it means to be a Christian. Mormonism, on the other hand, uses the terms “Christian” and “true Christianity” interchangeably with “apostate Christian” and “perverted Christianity.” It makes no distinction in the public square between “Christ” and what it calls Christendom’s “mythical Christ.” Apostle Bruce McConkie said, “there is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Mormon Doctrine, 670), yet the Mormon Church tells people, “Faithful Christians who are not Latter-day Saints still go to heaven.”

From a biblical Christian perspective, as Aaron Shafovaloff has pointed out elsewhere,

The scandal isn’t that evangelicals won’t call Mormons “Christian.” The scandal is that Mormons are willing to call someone “Christian” who, in their present state and path, faces an eternity of separation from Jesus.

Mormons are willing to call someone who:

  • doesn’t have forgiveness
  • doesn’t have justification
  • doesn’t have eternal life
  • hasn’t been adopted by the Father
  • doesn’t have the gift of the Holy Ghost

…a Christian.

Of course, Mormonism can’t preach a gospel that it does not own. Nevertheless, God will hold all false teachers accountable. In the Book of Jeremiah the LORD exposes the false prophets who “have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace” (Jeremiah 8:11). Scandalous indeed are the false prophets who comfort the perishing with peaceful words when there is no peace – words that bring false comfort to those who desperately need Christ.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Christianity, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, LDS Church, Truth, Honesty, Prayer, and Inquiry and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

63 Responses to True Mormonism

  1. Clyde6070 says:

    I like the 11th and 13th articles of faith. I am practicing Christian and somethings you do may be better than what I do.

  2. MJP says:

    I’ve found very few LDS are willing to explore Christianity. They may be willing to look at our differences or perhaps look at controversial doctrines that might divide us such as free will vs. election. They are not too inclined to search for what unites us all. They view the controversial doctrines as evidence of inconsistency, I believe. Naturally, they have no problem ignoring the very real inconsistencies in their faith and its history (what, precisely, is “true Mormonism”?).

    It is interesting to me how they approach the question of what encompasses the rest of Christianity. Their refusal to address the real issues and preference to focus on peripherals demonstrates an ignorance on how to find truth. Whether this is willful or not I don’t know, but it seems relatively common.

    Those who do choose to address the real issues seem to move away from Mormonism. Maybe I am wrong. Any thoughts?

  3. Rick B says:

    In the article it says

    If this is all true, why does the Mormon Church insist on telling the world that, “Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of the world is a Christian, regardless of differences in theology”?

    I have been saying this for years, Why can LDS call them selves Christian, yet preach a totally differant Gospel than what we Christians teach. But as a Christian, If I use their logic and call myself a Mormon and teach what I believe, the LDS claim I cannot do that. That really is a double standard.

    I want to add also, as we share Jesus and the True gospel with LDS, We get called Critiques of the church, so let me add this

    If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined; their foundation must be very weak. — (Journal of Discourses 14:216-217)?

    It seems many LDS cannot handle having their teachings and church examined.

    Clyde, You cannot be LDS and Christian, so Denounce JS as a true prophet and then we can go from their.

    The articles of faith were not mentioned in this article, but Clyde brought them up, so here they are in case some one does not know what they say.

    11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    This one is not exactly true, It’s not true in the sense that LDS send Missionary’s door to door, and by sending them door to door, they are saying we have the true gospel, so we must believe it or we cannot be saved in the highest kingdom. And the BoM teaches their are only two true churches, The true Church and the Church of the devil. So we either believe the BoM and the Missionary’s or we believe the 11 article of faith. They cannot both be followed and true.

    Now for number 13

    13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

    This also is not true. Mormons do not openly tell us what they believe, even when flat out asked and confronted. Clyde is famous for coming here and making no sense and wasting our time. He has been called out over and over by almost everyone here. So this article of faith exposes him for the fraud he is. Plus many Mormons have come here and claimed they have all the truth and evidence for Mormonism, but when we ask for it, they never give it. Hows that for being honest and true?

  4. Mike R says:

    Clyde, did you read what Sharon cited above on what some of your leaders have said about
    non-LDS who claim to follow Jesus ? I think your leaders are attacking their/ my faith , they are
    bashing others who also believe in Jesus . Right ?

  5. falcon says:

    True “Mormonism”, huh?

    What exactly is “true” Mormonism? Does the Community of Christ, Temple Lot, FLDS or LDS have “true” Mormonism? Their doctrines, even their doctrine of God, are totally different from one another. So which of these groups have the real restoration. They all can’t be true Mormonism. Actually I only listed four Mormon sects. I could have listed several more.
    Then, what I’d like to know, is the evidence that the Salt Lake City bunch can cite that would prove that what they believe, teach and practice is what the first century primitive Christian church did. The Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church can easily trace their lineage back to the first century Christian Church. Mormonism can trace their lineage back to about 1838 when Joseph Smith invented it.
    So we are to believe that the first century church believed that their are many gods and that men can become gods by following a certain system? Did the first century church have temples and did the believers dress-up in costumes and perform Free Masonry rituals? Were the early believers into plural marriage? Was there a “priesthood” in the early Church?
    Say a big “no” to these questions because Mormonism, SLC brand particularly, didn’t exist in any form until Joseph Smith invented it.

  6. grindael says:

    For those like Clyde, details just don’t matter. It’s all good. Everybody is ok. That is what Mormonism truly is (to those living in the bubble) – universalism. Everybody gets saved. Thing is, those in the bubble have to contradict virtually everything their leaders preach. What is scary is that they are so darn comfortable doing it, and denouncing those that quote them correctly (which Clyde seldom does by the way – the denouncing part), because Clyde is one of those in the bubble who are seldom fazed by anything. The massive cognitive dissonance that it takes to get to this state is astounding.

  7. MJP says:

    Details get in the way of true faith, it seems. Or, stated another way: the more faith against the weight of details, the better.

    Whatever. I am happy to defend my faith as openly as possible.

  8. falcon says:

    There’s a reason why “true Mormonism” is based on an emotional buzz. In fact if you visit any Mormon sites and take tours, one of the things you’ll notice is that the tour guides are constantly trying to gin-up an emotional ambiance. This emoting is thought to be “spiritual”. When missionaries do the lessons for a prospect, the goal is to create a feeling and get the “prospect” baptized as quickly as possible. If a prospect starts asking any real questions, questions that challenge the missionaries, that prospect is viewed as low on the priority list.
    My point is, it’s all a scam. It’s flim flam. It’s a con job. There is no truth associated with it.

    No Nephites! No plates!
    No truth!

  9. falcon says:

    Perhaps a better way to approach those Mormons who have another Jesus is to talk to them about the “true Jesus”. We’re warned often in Scripture about “false Christs” and this is indeed something for people to be aware of. The LDS church headquartered in Utah recognizes such a Christ.
    It is absolutely imperative for people to get Jesus right. Instead of depending on or out-sourcing their knowledge of Jesus to their religious organization, these Mormons need to do the research themselves.

    Notice that as Christians, we don’t shy away from the first four hundred years of Church history, when the (Church) answered that very important question regarding the person and work of Jesus Christ. We welcome the debate because in reading the works of the Church Fathers and the heretics it’s apparent where the heretics fell short.
    It’s true that the Church Fathers, as the debate went along, had to develop a vocabulary for terms that expressed who the Son is, His position in the Godhead, His redemptive work and how a lesser Jesus could not fulfill the mission of the Messiah.
    I recently talked with a father whose daughter had attended a college in Salt Lake City. This Christian man told me that at the time, coming from the Midwest, he really knew next to nothing about Mormonism. He struggled as to what advice to give his daughter as they were to leave her at this school in the very heart of Mormon country.
    He prayed to God asking for a word for his daughter. Before he left, for some reason he told his daughter to recite the Apostles’ Creed everyday. He had no idea why he told her that. When he returned home, a couple of thousand miles away, he spent some time reading about Mormonism. He said that in learning about Mormonism he understood why God had given him that word for his daughter.
    The Apostles Creed is a delineation of the basic foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. If a Mormon can’t agree with this, then they can’t call themselves Christians.
    Multiple gods living on various planets all who were formerly men wasn’t even on the radar screen of the early heretics. Mormons owe it to themselves to get a first hand knowledge of the history of the early Church.
    Incidentally, there are Mormon sects that hold to a traditional view of the nature of God as did Joseph Smith before he went off the religious rails.

  10. Clyde6070 says:

    Rick b
    Read article 11 again. You seem to have some to have some preconceived prejudicial notion of it. No one is forcing you to believe they are telling you what they believe. I will defend your right to worship God according to the dictates of your conscience and hope you will defend mine.
    Have you heard about the Stanford experiments.

  11. falcon says:

    I doubt if rick is telling you what to believe. I’ve read enough of his posts over the years to know that what he is telling you is why what you believe isn’t what the first century Christians believed. That’s your challenge. Go beyond some sort of emotional buzz that Mormonism is providing you and make some effort to understand/know what the first century church believed, taught and practiced.
    SLC LDS Mormonism is simply an invention of Joseph Smith and has been added to or subtracted from by various generations of Mormons. There isn’t even a hint of Mormonism in the first century. As I said in one of my posts, the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Churches can trace their heritage back to the early Church. Mormonism, as it was developed by Joseph Smith was a 19th century aberrant concoction of Smith’s fertile mind.

    Instead of asking grindael if he’s heard of the “Standford experiments” why don’t you take the time and trouble to enlighten us?

  12. Rick B says:

    Clyde, you as usual are wrong.
    Your false scripture, the book of mormon says their are only two churchs, the true one and the one if the devil.

    You guys send out kids who know nothing to tell me why your church is true, and I’m lost if I don’t believe it, how is that following the article as you claim?

  13. MJP says:

    I have to say Clyde’s point on giving people the freedom to worship as they see fit is really irrelevant. We’re not having a political discussion here, and allowing people to worship what they want has nothing to do with worshipping the truth.

    Another example of missing the point– deliberately or ignorantly.

  14. Clyde6070 says:

    The 11th article of faith is not talking about that. It is about your right to worship God the way you feel. You have your free agency to do that. Everyone needs to work their salvation with fear and trembling.

  15. Rick B says:

    Clyde, as I already said and then mjp said, your derailing this thread as usual. The topic at hand never mentioned the articles of faith. But you have a habit of doing that. Also, I thought you said you were done with this blog, again, that’s typical of you, not doing as you say.

  16. Clyde6070 says:

    Let me see if I can explain myself. I said I am a practicing Christian and something you do may be better than what I do. You once said that you baked cakes for people and that someone would do your brakes for you. ( I know they only charged you for the parts.) Doing something like that is admirable and to me very Christian. This is why I mentioned the 13th article. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. Who is to say that you are not holding higher Christian principles than I have. How can I deny you the title of being a Christian when you may be more of one than I am.

  17. Rick B says:

    Lds don’t tell the whole story, they purposely leave things out under the guise of, milk before meat. So as a result that’s lying. This goes against the 11th and 13th article.

    Also Jesus said people are in error of scripture and do not know scripture. He also warned us about false prophets and teachers. I cannot respect a person or religion that lies and leads people to eternal death.

    That also is not praise worthy or virtuous, if you feel I’m wrong then back it up with facts. Your problem is, you never have anything more than mere opinion and bubble talk. Where’s the facts?

  18. MJP says:

    How can you deny us the title of Christian? Because according to LDS doctrine we follow a lost and mistaken gospel and religion. Our faith is in a false Jesus, and our lack of works will not allow us exaltation. We lack the proper authority to do anything. That we call ourselves Christian is not enough to warrant ultimate salvation and approval of God.

    Your statement on the freedom of religion is a political statement and not a statement on the truth of anyone’s faith. It does not address any real issue except religious tolerance, but religious tolerance is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

  19. Mike R says:

    ” Christianity is Mormonism ? ” Mormons are the true christians , non-Mormons who follow ,
    serve, and bow before Jesus , are mere ” so called ” Christians , or false followers of Jesus ?
    Those who believe in Jesus but who don’t accept what Mormon leaders have taught about Him
    ( or God ) are believing in “fake ” Christ’s and thus will not obtain eternal life ?

    The above are some examples of what Mormon leaders have taught .
    Together with teaching that Christianity died off because after Jesus’ apostles were gone
    the gospel of salvation they preached was changed , resulting in 1700 years of spiritual
    darkness until 1830 when salvation was then again available to mankind by way of a
    Mormon prophet. Mormonism is the power of God unto salvation ( compare Rom 1:16) .
    These are the claims of Mormonism .

    It’s important that people get enough info about what Mormonism is all about so as to be
    dully informed . People will not get enough of the picture by looking at the what the Mormon
    church P.R. dept . advertises . Good decent people are detoured by false prophet led
    organizations far to often . We can help inform them to beware of such .

  20. PaleRider says:

    Clyde6070- “I said I am a practicing Christian and something you do may be better than what I do…Who is to say that you are not holding higher Christian principles than I have. How can I deny you the title of being a Christian when you may be more of one than I am.”

    These are strange comments and I don’t understand where you are going with this line of thought. Your relationship with God is not a contest with others or a title to be gained. Instead of working off another plagarized version of God’s word (13th Article of Faith) I encourage you to start reading and understanding His word found in the Good News, see: Philippians 4:8.

    Break the chains you have been conditioned with by false prophets of an apostate ‘restoration’ movement and simply read His word, he is calling you.

  21. grindael says:

    Have you heard about the Stanford experiments.

    Yes, so? Do you feel that I’m practicing psychological torture on you? Now that would be a first. Tell me Clyde, do yo also defend the rights of others to free speech?

  22. falcon says:

    What are you talking about, the Stanford Experiments?
    What does that have to do with anything we are discussing here? Have you heard about Pavlov and his experiments conditioning a dog to salivate to the sound of a bell? How about the cat bolt experiments by Thorndike?
    I know where ever you are tonight, you’re sitting out in left field.

  23. Old man says:

    While talking to Shem on a different topic I mentioned that the Bible, has a certain something that cannot be found in the D&C. It has what is popularly known as ‘the ring of truth’
    Further to that I wondered if anyone here has read the book of that name, written by J.B. Phillips around 1963. (I was I was relatively young back then) & it was a fascinating read.
    Anyway, this morning I was wandering around online looking for an article connected with the book when I came across a site that mentioned it. I thought it would be rewarding to quote something from the article; it may not fit in with any particular topic but is, in a sense, relevant to all topics.

    “In his book, The Ring of Truth, J. B. Phillips tells of a radio interview he had with the distinguished classical scholar, Dr. E. V. Rieu, who was the scholar who translated Homer into very modern English for the “Penguin Classics”. Rieu was sixty, and a lifelong agnostic, when the same firm invited him to translate the Gospels. His son remarked: “It will be interesting to see what Father makes of the four Gospels. It will be even more interesting to see what the four Gospels make of Father.” The answer was soon forthcoming. A year later Dr. Rieu, convinced and converted, joined the Church of England.
    When Phillips asked him, “Did you not get the feeling that the whole material was extraordinarily alive?” Rieu replied, “I got the deepest feeling. My work changed me. I came to the conclusion that these words bear the seal of the Son of Man and God. And they’re the Magna Carta of the human spirit.”
    Phillips concluded, “I found it particularly thrilling to hear a man who is a scholar of the first rank, as well as a man of wisdom and experience, openly admitting that these words written long ago were alive with power. They bore to him as to me, the ring of truth.”

    For anyone who wishes to read the article, here’s the link.

  24. falcon says:

    Old Man,
    I’m beginning to think you and I must be around the same age!
    The book I read by Phillips, it would have been the early 70s, was “Your God is Too Small”. In it Phillips chronicled all of the images people have of God and how these images distort who God is and ultimately give false views of Him. The one image I remember is “God the policeman”. This is self-explanatory and was a help for me as, as a young man, I tried to make sense of who God was in light of my very legalistic Catholic up-bringing.
    Think about the LDS God. He’s really a little fella! In fact the LDS god used to be a man who isn’t even at the top of the pantheon of gods in the LDS universe. He’s just a sort of “fellow traveler” who’s just a little further along than these Mormons who are hoping to become gods themselves. Who would want to worship a god who was the same as them but who were further along on some self-improvement program?
    Joseph Smith mixed in enough Christian sounding language and personalities to make his counterfeit appealing to those foolish enough to join his religious knock-off.
    The sad part is that only the authentic Biblical Christ can provide eternal life. The LDS Jesus is nothing more than a spirit brother to these Mormons. He’s not God incarnate, the qualified Savior.

  25. grindael says:

    Old Man,

    That is what happened to this boy 25 years after leaving Mormonism and being an avowed atheist when I read through the New Testament for the first time in many, many years. It had the “ring of truth”. I knew then I didn’t need anything else. The words of Christ are simple and elegant. They are not forced, they are not gaudy, they are quite simply beautifully eloquent. They are the desire of the ages, whether one knows it or not. But one will if they simply read them. That’s all it takes.

    Great article. Thanks.

  26. falcon says:


    I think you had what John Wesley described as the “burning in the bosom”, the authentic one, not the Mormon counterfeit.

  27. MJP says:

    I’m glad you mentioned Wesley. I am trudging through his “A Plain Account of Christian Perfection.”

    I am wondering if Smith had access to this book. Some of the verbiage and some of the ideas Wesley discusses seem not too far from Mormonism (though Smith greatly distorts the meaning, if he borrowed). Anyone else every read that or have insight?

  28. Old man says:

    I’ve had the same thoughts after reading some of your posts about the past. In one of them you asked me a question about the Beatles so I assumed that would place your birth way back in ‘the olden days’ So, just to relieve the unbearable tension that you must be experiencing right now I can tell you that I was born in 1943. 😉

  29. Rick B says:

    Old man, I have to ask, did you have a dinosaur as a pet?

  30. Mike R says:

    It’s no wonder why people get detoured from the truth about God/Jesus /salvation because
    they fell for the slick salesmanship of Mormon missionaries . The Mormon package has a lot
    of what appears to be the same things we find in the New Testament about the true gospel
    and church . But good counterfeits always appear close to the authentic , and that’s why
    when Mormon leaders claim that they are Jesus’ true officers for the latter days with the very
    same church and gospel that existed in the original authentic church Jesus established through
    His apostles we read about in the New Testament , people can get detoured by this latter day
    counterfeit .
    Mormons are the true christians , in the only true church with the only true gospel ? Sorry , but
    considering the rise of counterfeits in the latter days ( Matt 24:11 ) I’m safer in staying with
    the real deal , the original authentic —-it’s recorded in the New Testament . No need to follow
    prophets who have attempted to amalgamate their teachings to it .

  31. Old man says:

    “Old man, I have to ask, did you have a dinosaur as a pet?”
    Welllllll, I had something that hatched from an egg, it was very small but you wouldn’t believe the problem I had getting it house trained. 🙂

  32. MJP says:

    Isn’t this a curious article?

    The discussion of the true gospel goes back to the 2nd century… This is like us now learning from those who taught about 100 years ago max. While things change, they never actually change.

  33. falcon says:

    Smith was intimately familiar with Wesley because of the Methodist type revivals in his area. The place had so many revivals it was known as the “burnt over area”. Further more, go and read Charles Finney’s account of his trip to the woods to settle things between himself and God. Going to the woods and seeking God was pretty SOP in those days. At least Finney just had Jesus appear to him. I don’t think Finney ever told eight versions of his first vision story. Grant Palmer talks about all of the people who, if you listened to their testimony, you’d think it was Smith, the event was so common; that is without the Father and Son appearance. We know that the Bible tells us that the Father is Spirit and that no one has beheld Him at any time.

    Old Man,
    I was born in 1946. A typical Baby Boomer. I just turned 67 and my wife and I celebrated our 45th wedding anniversary last Saturday. BTW, I’m sort of a student of the Beatles. Their story for me, ends with their first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show. I’m still trying to determine what kind of bass player Stu Sutcliff was and if Pete Best was a decent drummer.

  34. Rick B says:

    Falcon, Congrats on your wedding anniversary. Me and my wife are going on 20 years.

    Now that your really old, should we re-name you, Old man Jr?

  35. MJP says:

    Thanks for the info, O.M. Jr, err, Falcon. I had forgotten Smith’s involvement in the Methodist church, so yes, it makes perfect sense he would know about Wesley’s theology. Interesting point about the forest experiences.

  36. falcon says:

    OK rick,
    Come follow me around for a day and you would not even begin to suggest the Jr. label for me!
    I’m an exercise addict of the hardcore variety. I gave-up triathlons some years ago because I didn’t need any more tee shirts.
    I was considering cosmetic surgery but I got a good look at Marie Osmond doing her Nutri System commercial today and at first didn’t know who she was. What is it these babes do to their lips?
    Is cosmetic surgery allowed by the LDS church? I know there are no beards or tattoos. For the women that is!

  37. falcon says:

    Hay could this be the Nephites? I’ve been there several times since it is near where I grew-up.

  38. Kate says:

    Marie Osmond’s lips are natural. Her brothers have the same lips, just no lipstick 🙂

  39. falcon says:

    Come on Kate!
    No way those are her natural lips. Let’s put some lipstick on Donny and compare the two. BTW years ago I visited the studio the Osmonds built out there in the SLC area. I think it caused them to go belly-up. The plan was to have the Donny and Marie Show originate from there and they’d have all of the guests fly in to SLC. A bad plan as it turned out. There’s this thing about keeping your show on the air in order to be able to use the studio. I actually liked the Osmond’s act going all the way back to the Andy Williams Show.
    But no way those lips are hers! All those babes who get work done end up with those lips and they aren’t their brothers’ (lips).
    Don’t mean to get into a fight with you about this but cosmetic surgery is something I’m passionate about. And it’s related to our topic at hand because the LDS church goes through a “face lift” just about every generation.

  40. Kate says:

    Hahaha, whoa calm down 🙂 I had to look into this a little and found this:

    What you have to remember is that photos of celebrities now days are photo shopped. Some person behind a keyboard can easily give someone fuller lips, more narrow neck, wider eyes, and let’s not forget that with a few clicks… PRESTO! NO WRINKLES! A trick we women use is to line our lips outside of the lipline and fill in with lipstick, I can see clearly that Marie does this. I’m not saying she hasn’t had work done, she’s just always had big lips, like the rest of the family 🙂

    I agree that the LDS church has had lots of cosmetic surgery and is in line for a lot more!

  41. shematwater says:

    I find it interesting that the entire issue of this thread is based on a book that is not, nor has it ever been, an official declaration of the churches doctrine and opinions. As much as I enjoy the book Mormon Doctrine, and I use it when trying to explain various doctrines, I do not rely on it as my sole source, especially on matters of opinion and not doctrine.
    On the point of referring to Christiandom as apostate the book is giving the authors opinion and is not stating the churches opinion. While we do hold the doctrine that no other religion contains the fulness of the Gospel, it has always been held that all religions hold some amount of truth and that all those believing in Christ as the Son of God and the savior of the world are rightly called Christians.
    Using an unofficial source against the official ones is never a good practice, as anyone with any understanding would simply accept the official source and disregard the other. Only those who do not know a source is unofficial would confuse the two.

  42. Old man says:

    Shem said
    “On the point of referring to Christiandom as apostate the book is giving the authors opinion and is not stating the churches opinion. While we do hold the doctrine that no other religion contains the fulness of the Gospel, it has always been held that all religions hold some amount of truth and that all those believing in Christ as the Son of God and the savior of the world are rightly called Christians.”

    Joseph Smith said
    “…..I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight:”
    Joseph Smith, “History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 5-6

    I’m a little confused, we’ve been told many times that Joseph Smiths so-called restoration was dependent on Christendom being apostate. Now we’re being told that it isn’t apostate. The ‘personage’ mentioned by Joseph Smith in the first vision said that Christians & their creeds are an abomination. Now we’re being told that they aren’t. I wish the they, the LDS, would make up their minds.

  43. Mike R says:

    Shem, your playing the same old tired game you’ve resorted to before . McConkie is about as
    well known a Mormon theologian /apologist your church has produced . His teachings have
    influenced multitudes of LDS . The only reason why he is held at arms length today is because
    some of what he taught is now somewhat embarrassing for some Mormons to admit to .
    All things considered , his opinion on doctrine would be considerably more valuable than yours .
    Official ? the definition of that amongst influencial Mormons is as slippery as 30 weight motor oil .

  44. MJP says:

    Old Man, you said you are confused… You are not alone. I’ve been confused multiple times concerning LDS positions.

  45. Rick B says:

    Shem, the problem with what you said is this, lds cannot agree on what is official doctrine or enev agree on what they believe.

    I was talking to a mormon a few weeks ago via email. He contacted me from this blog and was telling me, mormons can drink some types of tea. When I asked for official sources backing that up, he stopped writing me.

  46. shematwater says:


    Here’s your answer

    “each herb tea can be classified as a “hot drink” or “an herb to be used with prudence” only after we know what effect it has on the body.”
    Thus, yes we can drink some types of tea, if we know that the ingrediants carry no addictive quality or harmful side effect.
    (Note, the Ensign is an official publication and thus can be taken as official doctrine.)

    Old Man and MJP

    No religion that claims to be of God and yet does not hold his authority is going to be claimed by him. Those who claim his authority and yet do not have it are guilty of taking the Lord’s Name in vain. Thus those who, without said authority, took it upon themselves to establish the doctrine of Christ in whatever creed you want to talk about, have created an abomination in the sight of God.

    Now, it is the creeds that were called an abomination, not the people or the organizations. They are just termed to be wrong. So, yes, they are in apostasy, like all the other religions, and thus they are Christian religions that are in apostacy. However, they are still Christian, as they do believe in Christ as the Son of God and savior of the world.
    So, while Elder McConkie was correct in his declaration, his opinion that the churches should be referred to as apostate does not reflect the attitudes and opinions of the church since it was organized in 1830.


    The book Mormon Doctrine was never considered official by anyone, including McConkie. The church forbade him from printing it for a number of years, and when they did they required a number of changes to be made, both to doctrinal issues and to his opinions.
    He was a great scholar and knew more about the scriptures and the writings of past prophets than most anyone else. That does not mean he is infalible and that when he undertakes to write a book, without the churches permission, it is going to be completely without error.

  47. MJP says:


    A simple response here: huh?

  48. Old man says:

    “No religion that claims to be of God and yet does not hold his authority is going to be claimed by him. Those who claim his authority and yet do not have it are guilty of taking the Lord’s Name in vain.”
    I would like to be sure that I understand you correctly, Are you claiming to have Gods authority, are you claiming that your so-called church has authority? If you are then be good enough to explain using simple & clear Biblical passages, how you got it.

    “Thus those who, without said authority, took it upon themselves to establish the doctrine of Christ in whatever creed you want to talk about, have created an abomination in the sight of God.”
    The only authority you or your church has is a self-appointed one. Your church claims authority but it is not authority from God. It is authority from the god of this world; it is authority to deceive, to control, to become wealthy. You casually dismiss & replace 2000 years of Christian doctrine, formed by the CORRECT interpretation of Gods word; you replace it for the ramblings of a narcissistic false prophet.
    Your words which I quoted above perfectly describe the LDS organization & that is the real abomination in the sight of God.

  49. shematwater says:


    When did I ever claim it was simple? The words of Christ are simple, but the words of men are not always thus. I was explaining the words of men, not of Christ.

    Old Man

    This would be an example of your ranting that you wanted in a previous post. You say nothing of any value, but simply give a brief rant on how evil and vile our religion is.

    Yes, I believe we have the authority, given by God to men on Earth. It was given through proper ordination, just as Aaron received his authority through ordination from Moses, as Paul declares to the Jews is required (Hebrews 5: 4). I really couldn’t care less what your opinion of this is, as I know that is true and nothing you say can ever change that.
    We have never dismissed anything cassually, but only after due consideration and deliberation. What you call the correct interpretation is the doctrines of men, and nothing more. It was influenced by the truth, but also by false idea and philosophies, and thus is wrong, even though some elements are still correct. We seek after those portions that are true, and we seek to separate ourselves from those portions that are not.

  50. MJP says:

    Shem, perhaps you need to reread my post. I am not suggesting anything you said was simple, or not simple. I am expressing utter confusion.

    You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth, and it makes no sense whatsoever.

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