[In honor of Black History Month 2014, each Monday in February Mormon Coffee’s blog post will address a topic related to racism in Mormon history. Today guest blogger Lynn Wilder presents Part 3, the final installment of the series she began on February 3rd.]
The Bible invites people to “reason together,” (Isaiah 1:18) to “test the spirits” (1 John 4:1) against the Word of God (Acts 17:11). What is rotten at the foundation, at the root, and does not “bear good fruit” will be hewn down. Still LDS, I read the following and knew there was a problem with the foundation of Mormonism.
“Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Luke 3:9; Matt 3:10).
For biblical Christians, the Bible is the standard for measuring truth. For Mormons, truth comes from four standard works of scripture and the words of prophets. The LDS prophets will never lead one astray, never mislead the saints, I was taught when I was LDS.
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, p. 199).
“You can always trust the living prophets” (True to the Faith, 2004, p. 129).
There are many such quotes.
But, what if a Mormon prophet did lead the church astray? Well, one could say he was speaking as a man and simply made a mistake, like Dieter Uchtdorf proposed in his conference talk October 2013.
“And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.”
Okay, Mormon prophets are human and they make mistakes. It’s difficult for other Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators to tell when the prophets speak for God and when they err. Sometimes mistakes are made by 11 church presidents in a row: Brigham Young to Spencer W. Kimball as the recent statement on Race and the Priesthood on lds.org concedes. I get it. What about the mistakes of the founding prophet Joseph Smith?
What if a “mistake”—a false teaching—appeared over and over again from the establishment of the church in 1830 to 1978, for 148 years, in not just one but in several “official” places? What if it appeared in both the words of prophets and the words of other general authorities, say, when they spoke in conference? What if that “mistake” was still taught in two of the four standard works of Mormon scripture and is still there today? Now, what if that false teaching (e.g., racism) came from the founding prophet? Now that would be a problem, according to the Bible.
The LDS Church stands or falls on the foundation of Joseph Smith—his First Vision of the Father and Son with “glorified” bodies of flesh and bone, modern day revelation, the practice of polygamy, and “translated” scriptures with racial bias. This foundation rests in the arm of flesh (2 Chron. 32:8). One cannot be baptized into the LDS Church, receive the Mormon Holy Ghost, or work their way to eternal life with the Father and the Son without professing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who restored Christ’s original church in these latter days. Jesus alone is not enough. Mormons must confess belief in Joseph Smith. Without this acknowledgement, they cannot be exalted to the highest heaven. Joseph is the foundational key to Mormonism.
Jesus is Enough
Simply, the Bible is clear. Jesus is enough. He alone is the foundational cornerstone (Psalms 118:22; Matt 21:42). He alone is the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). A prophet is no longer needed. God spoke through the prophets until John the Baptist (Luke 16:16). Then Jesus came and He as God spoke for Himself (Hebrews 1:1).
The Bible establishes if a foundation is rotten, the entire structure/organization/person/religion must go. Remember the house built on the sand?
“For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11).
And the house on the sand washed away…
—
Joseph Smith Founder of LDS Racist Scriptures and Teachings: Part 1
Joseph Smith Founder of LDS Racist Scriptures and Teachings: Part 2
Grindael really posted lots of great info. Thank you for that. FoF’s response left me scratching my head. It seemed like a big post on how logical and reasonable he is and how everyone else is not objective or making evidence based claims. A lot of big talk without really addressing the mountain of information provided by grindael. The truth is Mormonism is a fundamentalist faith that is not reasonable or evidenced based so its really hard to give a nice balanced perspective. The only person that did that to some degree for me when I was Mormon was Bushman. And he was really reaching with some of his reasoninh. I walked away from his reasonable approach to Mormonism going, “why do I believe any of this?” What’s that quote? Something like, “you can’t reason someone into something that they didn’t reason themselves into.” I hope falcon doesn’t mind me reposting one of his previous comments because I think it really hit the nail on the head.
“I’m serious when I say I think we’ve uncovered/identified a spiritual disability that effects Mormons; especially Mormons of a certain type. It’s main characteristic is an inability to read and understand what the (Christian) poster has written.
I’ve seen this time and again in the years that I’ve been active here on MC. When the topic is say, God’s grace and how we lead our lives after coming to Christ in faith, Mormons will insist that Christians believe that they can sin with impunity without any consequences once they are saved. So we will write in a very straight forward manner regarding this misunderstanding, providing Biblical references and the Mormon will come back and say, “Well how come Christians believe that once they are saved they can sin as much as they want?”
So we back-up and come at it from another angle, again supplying Biblical references and the Mormon will say, “Oh yea, well than why do Christians believe that once they are saved they can sin as much as they want.”
It’s not only infuriating, frustrating and exasperating but it leads us to conclude that the Mormon is simply a liar and a troll. This has some real implications for evangelism and outreach to certain types of Mormons. They just keep believing what they’ve been told and repeat it over and over despite the evidence to the contrary.
I’d like to have FOF in front of me, have him read one of your posts line by line, deconstruct it, and then have him tell me what he just read (just the words) and then what they mean. Again, I’m serious about this. Because if a Mormon can’t even repeat what he’s read and apply an accurate meaning to it, there’s not a whole lot of hope short of a Damascus experience.”
I meant you can’t reason someone out of something that they didn’t reason themselves into.
FOF
Seriously? What are you smoking brother?
You wrote:
“I would not post this if the claim from the critics is that they simply want to examine our faith and religion from an objective, dispassionate, and evidence-based approach. I rarely, if ever, see that approach here, and it is quite obvious.”
We’re back to what I posted today regarding the inability of certain types of Mormons to read and comprehend. Does what grindael writes even penetrate your mind? He writes with passion, as most of us do because the cause of Christ is important to us. We get worked up about it. But that doesn’t discount the mountains of information and documentation that grindael, for example, provides.
I will never discount the effects that a diluting spirit can have on the thinking process of someone who is caught in a religion that counterfeits Christianity.
So to you lurkers; those of you who are at some point along the pathway of discovery about the LDS sect specifically and Mormonism in general. Let me ask you. Do you self-identify with FOFs thinking process that is basically stuck at the Mormon canned testimony level or do you now have the confidence to step out and begin to question Mormonism? If you’re here it’s because, I surmise, that you have some questions and you’re seeking answers. Understand this, most of the posters here are former Mormons or in the case of Old Man, was married to a Mormon, who I might add has recently exited the sect.
They’ve been through the process and write from a perspective of those who at one time bought the program and realized that it was a clunker. You don’t fix a clunker, you junk it!
Fof F ,
Thanks for sharing your secular resume . I’m sure you’re find and reliable doctor ,
and goodness knows we don’t have enough them in this country these days.
Unfortunately , your behavior in defending Mormonism is at odds with how you
conduct yourself with your peers in your medical profession .
The reason you are is simple , you have long ago determined that this ministry is no
good , it’s only a @nti LDS site , and you are here to stop it from providing information
to Mormons and non -Mormons that is needed . In your futile attempt to stop this
ministry you have resorted to the very things you often accuse others here of namely,
straw man arguments , conjecture, faulty assumptions , and even name
calling , and your propensity to employ what’s known as the pot calling the kettle
black , is telling .
I’m willing to bet that you do not engage in this these types of behavior in your
professional life .
Now , you have refused to directly respond to the substance of these threads by Lynn
and your latest angle on ” prophets” is a good example — one little point extracted
from any of her posts you run with while not addressing others .
Are you willing to admit that you may have misunderstood what she meant by
” A prophet is no longer needed? ” Did you show us in the New Testament where
that one man at the top as prophet ( and king ) is how Jesus set up His church ?
Your leaders have claimed that the Mormon church is an exact reproduction of the
church Jesus established through His apostles 2000 years ago .
Where do see taught in the N.T. one man at the top as the prophet , together with two
apostles over a separate 12 other apostles — a ” First Presidency ” ?
And please don’t do what you accuse others of here : reading into the scriptures what
they just don’t support .
“And that is the reason I post responses here- to offer an alternative perspective and point out what I think are fundamental flaws of logic and evaluation of evidence.”
Do you recognize the flaws in your own arguments?
I am in line with the others who have posted regarding your last post. Its a cop out. It does not address a thing, except to state that you are smarter than everyone here.
The case is pretty clear, as far as I can tell, that you have nothing to respond with. All you’ve done is mud-sling. You have not offered any counter argument to anything posted.
I wonder if LDS think Jesus is enough?
Hey all,
check this out
quote:
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
(Hebrews 12:24-25)
end quote;
I’m not sure how it can be more clear but here goes. What does this text say?
What does a mediator do?………….. He speaks.
Who is the mediator of the New Covenant?……….. Jesus
Who were they “who warned them on earth”? ………. the Prophets.
Who is it that now “warns from heaven”? …………….Jesus
If it were a snake it would have bit you. Now take a look at this
quote:
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
(Hebrews 8:6)
end quote:
I’d like to ask any Mormons here some simple questions
1) Who was the mediator of the Old Covenant? (hint…. Psa 106:23, Gal 3:19)
2) What are the better promises of the New Covenant? (hint……Jer 31:31-34)
now the kicker
3) How is the LDS version of the New Covenant with it’s human prophets and human priests and man made temples better than the OC?
I challenge you to take the time to ponder and pray about these things
one more thing
quote:
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
(1 Corinthians 1:19-21)
end quote:
nuff said
peace
FOF,
You’re a surgeon, a medical doctor?
Believe it or not, I spent ten years of my career in and around the medical profession working with medical doctors in clinics and hospitals and in pursuits outside of work.
While I’m sure you developed enough knowledge and a skill set to work in your profession and get board certified, there’s nothing here that I can see that you’ve transferred to this particular field of endeavor in which we’re operating (pun intended). That’s not all that unusual. I saw it with docs all of the time.
When it comes to Christian apologetics, you have a very limited knowledge of the field and an inability to see clearly what’s presented. Thus it holds true with you as I have quoted Dr. Walter Martin many times, “Mormons are able to function rationally in every area of their lives but not when it comes to their religion.”
FOF said that John 16:7 says that the spirit could not be present when Christ was present lets see if his many years of education have helped him to understand that text
here it is again
quote:
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” John 16:7
end quote:
Does this say the Holy Spirit can’t be present when Jesus is present? Is there any way we can know for sure
Lets take a look at what we find a couple of pages later in the very same book.
quote;
And when he [Jesus] had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
(John 20:22)
end quote:
There is Jesus and the Holy Spirit both in the same room at the same time.
Apparently it was not Jesus’ presence that was keeping the Spirit away.
Also apparently they don’t teach this stuff in medical school. 🙂
peace
FOF,
I am aware of that, but did you read my entire post about it? How then, did the Holy Spirit appear when Jesus was baptized? How was he in operation for the entire mission of Jesus? Please answer these questions. As for the Holy Spirit and his disciples, I asked you a question about that, that you obviously don’t want to answer. (That is the answer to the scripture you quoted). I gave you a hint, but I don’t think you get it. Your scripture doesn’t work. And that doesn’t mean that the Comforter could not be present when Jesus was, it means something else, and the answer is right there in the Bible.
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. (John 3)
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. (John 14)
Please explain, FOF. This is the key to the entire argument about the Holy Spirit. Do you understand it?
@Faithoffathers
Well to any reader, it’s understandable that this would seem like a slight contradiction. If the Holy Spirit could only come ‘unto’ them if Jesus was to leave, a casual reader might be bewildered when later on (John 20:22,NASB) the Holy Spirit arrives already. What gives?
Obviously, the Holy Spirit was already at work. (John 20:22). Yet Jesus’ reference to the Holy Spirit’s arrival when he departed was not the Holy Spirit coming to the earth, as He is already omnipresent(Psalm 139:7,NASB). He is referring to the Holy Spirit coming ‘unto’ the lives of the believers in a different way than previously experienced (Acts 1:8,16). Thereafter they would be witnesses throughout the world.
1. “until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen” (Acts 1:2,NASB). Holy Spirit is still here.
2. “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. <Acts 1:8,NASB) Holy Spirit is still here. But in the future, the Holy Spirit will ‘come unto’ you. [ἐφ’ ὑμᾶς]
3. ““For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.” (Acts 2:15-18,NASB).”
Holy Spirit is still here, but now He has ‘come unto’ the apostles and he is performing signs and wonders like never before. And prophecy is fulfilled.
@Faithoffathers
The Holy Spirit coming unto a person is different than the Holy Spirit ‘coming’ to the earth. Hope my previous post resolves this. Thanks.
The dedication it takes to become a Doctor is commendable. This reminds me of something that I read today, when I was doing some research about the Mormon’s “Perfect Organization”. Did you know that the Mormon organization was once compared with the German Army? Here is Elder C. W. Sorenson, from the 1910 General Conference,
The Germans of late 19th and early to mid 20th Centuries were brilliant people. But it seems that the Mormon Organization has outlasted the Prussian Army of the Germans. Those brilliant Germans, lost a first World War, and then went right back at it for a second one.
When I was in High School, I was fascinated by Nazi Germany. I read a lot of books, and had a Social Studies teacher who had served in Germany, and had an outstanding collection of German paraphernalia from that era that he would bring to school and show us. During that time, I read about a brilliant man by the name of Albert Speer, who has been dubbed “Hitler’s Architect.”
Speer was an intelligent guy, who designed buildings that were fantastic. Must have been well schooled and was probably well organized and could probably present ideas in a coherent way and had the skills to see his ideas turned into beautiful edifices. How could this man, have fallen in with someone like Adolf Hitler? It was a question that I often thought about. You know what Speer said after his Nazi experience?
I was so knowledgeable about the Nazi’s, right after high school (before my Mission) I was actually recruited by the Aryan Nations. One of my best friends who was also a Mormon, was involved with them. He used to play these long speeches by Hitler (which he had memorized) that he had on LP Records. Listening to that, was an experience I’ll never forget… Look up Richard Butler if you are curious. But they mistook historical interest for zeal.
The brightest people on the planet are not necessarily the smartest it seems. You can be in a position to KNOW something, and yet shun that knowledge. This was Speer’s dilemma, which he didn’t figure out until long after the consequences came knocking at his door.
You speak of bias. Well that, to me, is so self deprecating. I wonder if Speer had some kind of bias and if it eventually changed. I think it did. Food for thought.
And bias, is all about being unfair and prejudiced. Is that how you see yourself, FOF? If so, don’t include me in your world. You see, you need to tell yourself this, because for you, everyone has to be unfair and prejudiced when it comes to Mormonism if they don’t agree with you.
You say that the conclusions of those that post here who are critical of Mormonism are rarely supported by the evidence we provide. And yet, FOF, you can’t answer that evidence. Take for example, my post about the Holy Spirit. You simply give a verse in answer to a facetiously sarcastic question, but don’t address anything else. You then try to divert the argument back to what you always do, ranting about how only YOU can understand the evidence and that everyone else is wrong. But you don’t provide any real evidence to back up any of your claims. Christians have 2000 years of Biblical understanding at our disposal. You have 150 years of Mormon pseudepigrapha and “prophet” and “apostles” that can’t even get their stories straight, their Gods sorted out, and who are unable to admit that they were racists and liars. Christians have seen these things throughout our history, and yet the Bible stands supreme, its teachings flawless, its message one for the ages. The fringe is still the fringe. The core of Christianity, the teachings of Jesus found in the Bible will never change. But hacks keep coming along, trying to reinterpret it, and some will follow them. Some last, some don’t. That doesn’t mean a thing.
We simply get the FOF canned response like this one,
Yet, FOF, you offer no evidence that they don’t. Perhaps you are too busy. If so, then perhaps you should rethink your “approach”. For all that I can see is simply a grand soliloquy that only benefits YOU.
I know that I’m not biased when it comes to Mormonism. Why? Because I’ve experienced it from both sides. I had the same kind of conversion experience that you did, bad boy embraces what I thought was a “good” religion and everything was all rosy and nice… Until I left my emotions behind and started using the God given intelligence I was born with.
You are telling us that you can’t get past your bias. I’m telling you that when it comes to Mormonism, I don’t have any. But when it comes to YOU, personally, well that is a whole different story. Why? Well, I think you know. And it’s not any kind of bias, just plain, simple distaste for your methods and logic.
You have tried once again, to make this all about YOU. How about we get back to the topic at hand, or go and do what you always do, retreat and wait for the next topic so that you can lather, rinse and repeat once again.
Definition of a mediator from an online dictionary – a person who mediates, especially between parties at variance.
Definition of mediate from same dictionary –
1. ( intr; usually foll by between or in ) to intervene (between parties or in a dispute) in order to bring about agreement
2. to bring about (an agreement)
3. to bring about (an agreement) between parties in a dispute
4. to resolve (differences) by mediation
5. ( intr ) to be in a middle or intermediate position
6. ( tr ) to serve as a medium for causing (a result) or transferring (objects, information, etc)
Note definition #5 – to be in a middle or intermediate position.
How about #6 – being a medium to cause a transfer of information
Someone earlier (can’t find the comment) said they were not a mediator between God and man, that they were just pointing us in the direction of God.
Question (for all but especially for the person who made that comment) – Why are you doing this? For yourself or for God?
If it’s for yourself, then aren’t you being presumptuous that God cannot do it Himself or that He needs your help? Or is it because you think that we LDS need your help to get to God? Either way you are acting between God and the LDS members by disseminating information from God to the LDS in hope to get them to God. This fills both definitions #5 and #6.
If you’re acting for God because you believe that He ‘commissioned’ or called you to do it, then here you are saying that God has given you the go ahead to act between Him and the LDS people by feeding us what you deem as correct information from and about God. Again filling the definitions #5 and #6.
So in pointing the LDS towards your God, you are acting as an in-between person, or in other words a mediator between the LDS people and God.
Yes Jesus is the final Mediator between us and God when it comes to the final judgement, but He and God still need people on this earth to help them in their work in bringing souls to them. These people are mediators, but not The Mediator.
If you want to say that you are not mediating between the LDS and God, but between the LDS and Jesus, that is fine, I don’t mind you making that claim. But who, to you, is Jesus? God ! So there again you are mediating between the LDS and God.
Faithoffathers,
Don’t worry about putting your credentials on the line here. There was an LDS member a couple of years ago who studied ancient Hebrew and Greek and was about to move to England to do his PhD (in those languages) at one of the big universities there (think it was Oxford). So he did not have an LDS view of how the words translated/meaning of the words, but a scholarly one, and he was using that to show what the Bible passages meant. The people on this site were still trying to tell him that his translations (or more succinctly the meanings of the words he used) were incorrect and so were the current scholarly opinions on the translations/meanings.
Then we had 2 LDS members who had converted from Evangelical Christianity telling about their experiences and what they were taught while in the Evangelical community. The people here treated them exactly the same way they say we LDS treat the ex-LDS on this site; Saying that they didn’t understand what they were taught; they were making things up to make the LDS church look good and the Evs look bad; etc.
So they do have their bias even though they say they don’t. They do have their axe to grind.
Grindael,
Your comment about the LDS comparing themselves to the German army is very out of place. You are making the comparison between the LDS church and Nazism with your comment especially since you go on to discuss Nazism and Hitler and the 2 World Wars. But you know, because you have posted the origin of the quote, that it was well before these things happened – the quote was from 1910. World War 1 had not even started, let alone Hitler or Nazism had even been heard of.
This is a big show of your bias towards the LDS church giving information like this and putting it into a context it never even had.
Ralph,
Have you working to many hours lately ? Because your comment about grindael
supposedly trying to compare the Mormon church with Nazi’s is ” out there ” .
Why would you insinuate something like that ? Come on Ralph , you’re a better man
than that .
@old man
As a former “lurker” I was, in a way, re-iterating what you had stated.
That its pointless to argue with LDS if your trying to convince them… but the upside is lurkers (such as myself) get to see both sides of the coin. Then we are able to come to a better understanding of christianity.
@fof
your lengthy post of credentials was like listening to Hollands “I’m no dodo” blurb on the bbc. But longer.
After reading FOF and Ralph’s latest post about the only thing they could add is, “therefore the LDS church is true”, right?
After all, the Christians here, many former LDS members, don’t really know Mormonism, provide no relevant information, don’t know how to interpret the Bible, don’t present well documented information and are really just plain enemies of the LDS church and the glorious restored gospel.
And in FOF’s world, if we would just read and continue to read the BofM, we would all come to see how it is all true. I can imagine that they they think we’re really stiff necked people because we won’t believe that a man on the instructions from a spirit being that he said appeared to him, dug up some gold plates from the ground and by putting his magic rock in his hat and staring into the hat excluding all outside light, was able to translate the reformed Egyptian language written on these gold plates.
Further more that there are millions if not billions of gods in the universe and that men can become gods also, by obedience to the LDS religious system, and rule their own planetary systems along with their goddess wives who, BTW, they resurrected from the dead by calling her secret name which she received during one of the temple rituals.
I could go on but you get the drift. I think after 150 posts or so on a topic things can get muddy and we have to clarify what exactly our LDS posters believe and try to defend.
Reality is a tough thing to come to grips with for those who have bought into Smith’s fantasy world. What we see demonstrated here on a daily basis is the lengths these Mormon defenders will go in order to maintain their belief in the myth.
Hey Ralph,
I’m the one that said I am not a mediator but merely try and point folks to Christ. I’ll give your questions a go
you said,
Why are you doing this? For yourself or for God?
I say.
For myself. God is in the business of reconciling people to himself and I get the enormous privilege of being around when that happens every once and awhile. It’s better than butter.
You say,
If it’s for yourself, then aren’t you being presumptuous that God cannot do it Himself or that He needs your help?
I say,
Not at all I know for a fact that God will call his children to himself completely with out my help. It’s about me getting to witness that miracle. Nothing less. The cool thing about this site is that he does it quite often. I hang around just waiting for him to do it again
you say
Or is it because you think that we LDS need your help to get to God?
I say,
Actually everyone not just LDS need help (not my help but God’s help) to get to God. It’s not about what I need to do it’s what I get to do. I honestly love telling folks who don’t know about the gospel it’s fun. When you’re in love you can’t help and talk about your beloved. and there is always the chance I get to see Jesus claim another lost soul to himself.
You say,
Either way you are acting between God and the LDS members by disseminating information from God to the LDS in hope to get them to God. This fills both definitions #5 and #6.
I say,
Here is where you get this completely wrong. I just talk about Jesus. I love to do that especially to people who don’t know him. The Holy Spirit disseminates information or not depending on his good pleasure.
Take this thread for example grindael has laid out the gospel beautifully yet I am confident to say that you and FOF have as of yet received no spiritual information. That is simply because the Mediator (Jesus) has thus far not chosen to reveal himself to you.
Until Jesus decides to meditate by opening your eyes with the Holy Spirit what we say here will sound like illogical gobbledygook. Once he does that our words will sound like the very words of God.
I pray he does that and hope that I’ll be around to witness it when he does. That is why I’m here
hope that helps
Peace
@Ralph [if the foundation is rotten, all that joseph smith built tumbles]
Thanks so much for your long discourse. I have a question for you. What did Jesus mean when he said (as the only mediator between God and man – according to you at final judgment)?
Notice your definition isn’t taken from the Bible but an online dictionary. What is the Biblical meaning of mediator? Greek: μεσίτης(1 Timothy 2:5,NASB).
It’s interesting that Jesus talks about the foundation of anyone’s faith. He says this:
(John 8:24,NASB)
What does it mean to believe that I am (he) or what is rendered in the Greek as ἐγώ εἰμι?
Ralph,
I was quoting a Conference Report about the German Army. THEY brought it up back then. If you have problems, it is with your own leaders. And If you read what I wrote, I wasn’t doing any kind of comparison between Nazi Germany and the Mormons. I said the reason that I thought about the GERMANS, was because I read that report.
THAT got me thinking of why LATER (as I explained), good INTELLIGENT men from GERMANY, sided with Hitler and about one who said that he purposefully avoided the knowledge that would have made him turn from that path. Good men do lots of things that other people think are outside the norm. Intelligence doesn’t necessarily mean that men use the knowledge that might be right in front of them. In FOF’s case, he admitted it was because he was biased. Well, now we know.
If you can’t see this connection, you are just being silly and want to stir up trouble and name call just for the heck of it. And I spoke of the PRUSSIAN ARMY, genius. They were around in 1910. Read with some comprehension before you go throwing out accusations that are baseless.
As for the Mormons and Nazi Germany, there is some interesting History there, that might help. That was a complicated time and Ralph trying to broadstroke my post on this issue just shows his own bias. As I said in my post above, this is a tactic that Mormons HAVE to use, because to them, everyone who is a critic is “biased”, and that is the lynch-pin of ALL of their arguments against the critics, since they have no answers to the evidence.
Thanks Ralph, for making my point.
Why do Mormon baptize dead people that aren’t Mormons Ralph? Can’t the Mormon God do it Himself? Your whole argument here is one big strawman. No one here is “mediating” between Mormons and God. You obviously are trying to word play here, and it just doesn’t work. If we go by what your definition is, all men are mediators because God COMMANDED them to preach the Gospel. Why doesn’t He just do it Himself? This is just silliness, and anyone can take multiple definitions and misapply them, like you are doing here. But I’m not surprised that you would resort to this kind of tactic.
Because … you have no answers for the plethora of quotes and documentation that has been provided here, only your OPINIONS and hearsay stories that can’t be verified. And the “scholar” you speak of, left the discussions, after NOT being able to prove his points, because of the work of other scholars, and those of us who know, proved that he had no EVIDENCE, only SPECULATION. I also showed that he knew very little about Mormon History.
That person you speak of Ralph, (and the other scholars he quoted) have a certain worldview, that they can’t back up without rampant speculation, which we proved very nicely, thank you very much. Only in YOUR mind, did he “win” his argument. In fact, You can read for yourself, beginning here, on the Post “One God”, or here, on the Post “Clarifying Mormonism”, or here, to see how little he knew about Mormon History during a discussion of the Trinity. I think you will see folks, that Ralph is only yanking chains.
Funny how that is all you have to offer, isn’t it?
There is a HUGE PROBLEM with this kind of bad logic. Paul (hence, the Bible) PROVE that this is wrong. As Paul wrote to Timothy,
We are NOT mediators. No MAN is. We are Ministers of the Gospel. We do not negotiate ransom prices. There is a HUGE Difference here. Paul says so. There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, Jesus. Not One BIG MEDIATOR and a lot of little mediators. And why are Mormon “prophets” not needed? Because we already have the REVELATION of Jesus. The reason that God called men like Paul and his 12 Witness Apostles, was to write the message. These were the men chosen by God and the Holy Spirit to lay the FOUNDATION, which FOUNDATION we STILL HAVE. Mormons, want to lay ANOTHER foundation. They have simply built a whole other building which is nothing like the original. They want to go back to the days of the OT prophets, which age is long past. We have a “glory that excels”, and that is “the ministry of righteousness”, not the ministry of Mormon taskmasters.
Ralph is ignoring what Jesus himself said,
There is nothing WE can do, because if someone is to be drawn by the Father, the Holy Spirit will work to make that happen. It is only through Christ, Jesus that we have access by the Holy Spirit to the Father:
Jesus was a tri-fold Mediator, Prophet, Priest, and King. He encompassed all of the offices of the ancient Israelites and made them ONE. They were but a foreshadowing of the Revelation that was Jesus. Therefore,
This does not mean that we do not have the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit. That is entirely different. That is why we no longer need Prophets to mediate. What can Mormon “prophets” teach us, that the Holy Spirit cannot? Are they somehow “more righteous”? More favored of God? Not in the New Testament Church. One cannot COMMAND the Holy Spirit to give His GIFTS. He gives His GIFTS, as He will. That the OT Prophets, only spoke in part, is borne out by Paul,
Christians cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, and which base themselves on such “revelations”.
grindael,
While I was reading and enjoying your “German” post, I was wondering who the first Mormon would be to charge that you were comparing Mormonism to the Nazis? Right on schedule, Ralph shows up making that charge. You ought to be ashamed of yourself setting a trap like that for him to walk into. It was almost too easy. These guys are so predictable!
OK now it’s time for the old Catholic in the group to bring up “mediation” in regards to the Virgin Mary and the saints. Try this:
To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other. In the New Testament it is used as the equivalent of entygchanein (Vulgate interpellare, in Hebrews 7:25). “Mediation” means a standing in the midst between two (contending) parties, for the purpose of bringing them together (cf. mediator, mesites, 1 Timothy 2:5).
In ecclesiastical usage both words are taken in the sense of the intervention primarily of Christ, and secondarily of the Blessed Virgin and the angels and saints, on behalf of men. It would be better, however, to restrict the word mediation to the action of Christ, and intercession to the action of the Blessed Virgin, the angels, and the saints.
In considering the Mediation of Christ we must distinguish between His position and His office. As God-man He stands in the midst between God and man partaking of the natures of both, and therefore, by that very fact, fitted to act as Mediator between them. He is, indeed, the Mediator in the absolute sense of the word, in a way that no one else can possibly be.
His office of Mediator belongs to Him as man, His human nature is the principium quo, but the value of His action is derived from the fact that it is a Divine Person Who acts. The main object of His mediation is to restore the friendship between God and man. This is attained first by the meriting of grace and remission of sin, by means of the worship and satisfaction offered to God by and through Christ. But, besides bringing man nigh unto God, Christ brings God nigh unto man, by revealing to man Divine truths and commands — He is the Apostle sent by God to us and the High-Priest leading us on to God (Hebrews 3:1). Even in the physical order the mere fact of Christ’s existence is in itself a mediation between God and man.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooo…….the basic Catholic position is that if these “saints” and the Virgin Mary could intercede for others in prayer while alive, why not after they have departed this world? They don’t cease being in the Body of Christ after death so why not ask them to intercede on our behalf.
I think I’ll pass on that myself but you never know who might climb on board that practice. I always like to look into the Catholic position since I was raised in the faith and it is, after all, the one true church being able to trace it’s origins back to the first century Church, they have the priesthood and a Vicar who speaks for God. 🙂
I just can’t help myself sometimes!
As I was reading Grindael’s latest post, it occurred to me that the Bible has a very specific use for the term “mediator”. Thus, Ralph’s assertion that the definition could fit a few of the roles we as Christians play is off. The Bible uses the term very specifically. Grindael, and others, have outlined very well what that role is. It is therefore very wrong for us to add our own use of the term.
I know very clearly when the Bible uses the term “mediator” what it means.
It means that Jesus did for us what we are unable to do for ourselves. He paid the price for sins that those who would receive Him by faith would have eternal life.
The Bible is clear, “For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus Our Lord.”
There’s nothing to add to it.
The false prophets upon which Mormonism is built supposed that doing religious rituals in something they labeled a “temple” would provide men the means by which they could become gods. That is no where in God’s revealed Word the Bible. In order to accomplish this task of inventing a religion, these false Mormon prophets shoved God’s Word aside with their own created scripture and prophetic utterances that have nothing to do with the Living God.
Mormons can either depend on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation or they can trust in these false prophets to lead them to personal deification, which we know, isn’t going to happen.
We labor daily in this soil in hopes that the seeds that are planted will be watered and nurtured by the Holy Ghost that when the harvest comes there will be an abundance of souls brought into the store house of the Lord.
FoF,
If you are still reading this thread, let me add something. I actually understand your position. I am not that obtuse such that I am blind to a counter argument. Your position is that the Bible leaves it open for modern day prophets who lead Christ’s church. You disagree with Lynn’s conclusion that Jesus is enough and that no prophets are needed on the above basis.
This position is not crazy in and of itself. I think God can indeed give us a prophet if he wanted to. I am not going to limit what God can or cannot do.
However, your argument does not hold up, as has been demonstrated. Repeating the mantra is all you have done, and that is not an effective way to win a point. I believe you just simply don’t understant what it is we believe on a foundational level. You don’t understand our Jesus and who He is and what He does for us. You don’t understand so much of our belief system that it is all foreign to you. To make a point that might gain some traction in these discussions you will have to accurately understand these things. If you don’t, you will never truly understand precisely what it is we stand upon and discussions will continue in the same vein.
Nonetheless, I respect your right to hold such an argument, if you so choose. As I stated, its not crazy in and of itself. Because you and I may see differently on this does not mean that respect for person must be lost. I respect you. It is tough to come here and do what you try to do.
I pray, however, that you will come to a better understanding of what it is we believe, without which, borrowing another’s phrase, it sounds like mumbo jumbo. If you are seeking truth, teh truth will find you.
MJP,
There you go…….understanding who Jesus is.
If a Mormon comes to understand who Jesus is, they won’t continue in Mormonism. There would be a shift from seeing Jesus as “a” god to being God. There would be a shift away from Jesus being the spirit offspring of the Mormon god of this planetary system and one of his goddess wives, to the One Living Eternal God. In coming to Jesus in faith, the entire house of cards that is Mormonism, would collapse.
This is basically what our posters here, who are former Mormons have testified to. If someone is serious about God’s revealed Word, the Bible, and what it tells us about Jesus, they will find that it is not compatible with their Mormon belief system. My guess that the idea of giving up what they think they have in the LDS church is way too scary for some to even consider. The apostle Paul talks about this in His letter to the Philippians when he says that the things he had gained in his previous religious life were rubbish compared to the higher calling of knowing Christ Jesus.
Jesus is the One who came into my life and saved me for eternity. The reality is that there is no going back once we die; no second chances. Jesus told us that many on that day will cry out to Him “Lord, Lord” and recount to Him all that they had done in His Name and He will say “Depart from me I never knew you.”
This knowing is about coming to that place where a person understands who Jesus is, what He has done for us, and accepting the sacrifice of His cross in total payment for our sins. No amount of good works or religious observances or rituals can take the place of or add to what Christ Jesus has already done for us.
Sometimes I wonder if we take for granted that people know how to receive this gift of eternal life that God is offering. When I came to Christ I was alone and basically confessed to God that I did believe who Jesus said He was, that I acknowledged my status as a sinner and that I would trust in Him alone for my salvation.
I didn’t laugh, cry, shake, fall down or get a burning in the bosom. But what I did get was the assurance from God’s Spirit that my status before the Father had changed. That I was declared righteous based on my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
My life did change on the outside as it had on the inside to reflect my new status as a child of the Blood Covenant spoken about in Jeremiah 31:31-34 made through Jesus’ sacrifice and under which I was now covered.
When we examine the claims of Mormon leaders we see a picture emerge , one which is
evident when compared to the authentic , the original , picture of not only the church Jesus
established through His apostles 2000 years ago but the gospel these men taught as well .
In the retailers and manufacturers in this country there exists the challenge of spotting what
they call ” knock off’s ” i.e. close imitations of the original , whether in clothes or other
merchandise , usually made over seas . This is a big problem for those who make the ” real deal ”
they have to send people to go out , spot , and inform store owners of these clever imitations .
The Mormon church is a type of ” knock off ” of the original church of Jesus Christ .
The leaders of Mormonism are imitation prophets and despite the claim from them that the
church Joseph built is the exact same church as Paul served in , it is a knock off of that church.
This thread and the others from Lynn demonstrated this fact .
Thankfully she discovered she was in a imitation of the true church of Jesus , and chose to
follow Him by walking out the door of that church into His arms trusting Him to be the Way
the Truth and the Life — no one man at the top as prophet , no secret temple rituals , no having
to confess a latter day prophet . She found the great liberating truth : Jesus is enough . Heb 7:25
The leaders of the Mormon church can’t be trusted as spiritual guides of gospel truth —and the
issue with Negroes is a great example of that .
The Mormon people deserve better . Lynn did , and she found the answer .
I enjoy reading the records that Mormons have left. It gives us an idea of what they were really doing. After the death of John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff & the rest of the “Apostles” renegotiated their salaries. Here are some of the entries about salaries, from Woodruff’s Journal:
Brigham Young, [settlement of estate] For Services Rendered the Church for 30 years $10,000 [per year] = $300.000 (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 7, p.410, April 10, 1878)
Jan 10 1883 I attended the Council in the Afternoon and a vote was taken to raise the wages of Erastus Snow to $2,500 a year and that he send up his back account and it should be allowed him. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 8, p.146, January 10, 1883)
The following Motion was made by Moses Thatcher and voted by the whole Council to Appropriate Annually in Cash the following sums to the following Persons: Wilford Woodruff as Presidet $5,000, L Snow $3,000 Erastus Snow $3,000 F. D. Richards $3,000, G. Q. Cannon $3,000, B. Young $3,000, Joseph F. Smith $3,000, D. H. Wells $3,000, M Thatcher $2,000, G Teasdale $2,000, F M Lyman $2,000 John Henry Smith $2,000 John W Taylor $2,000. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 8, p.452, August 12, 1887)
I guess the higher your “seniority” in the Quorum, the higher your pay grade. Astounding. Really. The average ANNUAL salary in the United States for 1877 was about $738
15 Sarah Called at the office on her way to Provo. Several of the Twelve Came in And it was voted By G Q Cannon J F Smith F D Richards F M Lyman & John Henry Smith that my Services should be increased in wages [p.227] from $416.66 to $500 a month as Trustee in Trust from the time of my Apointment. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 9, p. 227, November 15, 1892)
Now read this,
We have no paid ministry in this Church, no hired clergy either to preach at home or to go out as missionaries; but every man in the Church who has received a testimony of the truth, and a portion of the Holy Priesthood—which is generally diffused among the male members of the Church—stands ready to perform any duty in connection with his calling in the ministry. I am called upon this afternoon to speak to this congregation, and I respond in this spirit, the spirit in which our brethren go abroad to preach the Gospel, or stay at home and preach it, or go to some distant part of the Territory and help to colonize it, or to perform any other work that is necessary for the general good, for the building up of the Church of Christ, and for the benefit of the people belonging to that Church who have been gathered from various nations. (Charles Penrose, Journal of Discourses, vol. 24, p.30, September 23, 1883)
There is one thing about the leading [p.339] men of this Church they do not depend upon the people for their support. It is not necessary for them to tickle their ears by fine speeches and pleasant things. They can say rough things, unpleasant truths, because they are independent; they can live without the aid of the people by the industry of their own hands, and they are not afraid of some of their deacons or some of the congregation taking exceptions to their manner of speech and cutting off their salary. Why if such unpleasant truths were told, as have been told to the Latter-day Saints, by ministers of different denominations, who do you think would give them a call? Would they receive a call to some other places and be paid a higher salary? No, their style would be too unpleasant to be popular. Well I have hope for this people while this is the case, and I pray that we shall always have men here who are not afraid to tell you and me our faults and warn us of them and reprove us, for “better the reproof of a friend than the kiss of an enemy.” (George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p.339, October 6, 1879)
When Mr. Greeley was here, he was anxious to learn what salaries our missionaries received, and what salary this and that officer in the Church received. I told him that our missionaries received what the people gave them after they went from here. A few have started from here with money to pay their passage across the sea, that they might not be delayed in reaching their point of destination. He then asked me whether I did not receive a salary. I replied, “No, my friend; I can truly say to you that I do not have the value of a cabbage-head from the Tithing Office, unless I pay for it.” “What!” said he, “do you not have pay for your services? You, devote all your time.” I remarked that I should count myself a poor hand to dictate this people and hold the position I occupy in the providence of God, unless I was capable of maintaining myself and family without assistance from the Church, though I have had a great deal given to me by the members of the Church. The Lord has blessed me with ability to provide for my wants, and those of my family; and if he has not blessed all the Elders with like ability to sustain themselves, we will assist them when necessary; but we pay no salaries to our Elders and Bishops. My salary consists of the providences of God while I live, and eternal life when I faithfully finish this probation. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.346, July 31, 1859)
Lying. The Fruits of Mormon “prophets”.
In recalling Lynn’s testimony, I can’t remember when her questioning of the LDS church started; if it was her son Micah’s coming to Christ while on a mission for the LDS church and being sent home early or if it was when she was teaching a course on multi-culturalism at BYU and learned the disturbing facts about the ban on blacks in the priesthood by the LDS church. The events may have happened more-or-less simultaneously.
However I do remember that she started reading the NT and I believe at first she concentrated on Jesus’ words only. She also began to stealthily wear a cross under her clothes. Wearing a cross would be a real NO-NO at BYU.
Here’s the deal, the entire family eventually left Mormonism and they were led to by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. The words of the Mormon prophets cannot stand-up to the Word of God. We’ve said often here that the Holy Scripture is the biggest @nti-Mormon literature that there is. The Bible is no supporter of Mormonism.
Falcon,
I agree that is a likely result, but it is possible to understand our faith on a more basic level than what FoF has done. I still encourage him to work on that understanding of what our faith dictates.
His position rests on a complete misunderstanding of our faith, that should be clear. I find that truth all the more sad given that most Mormons complain bitterly when we apparently mischaracterize their faith.
I asked earlier if Mormons believe that Jesus is enough. If they say yes, Jesus is enough, what does that mean to them? To us, the statement is clear on its face. I expect a Mormon answer to require some follow up questions.