[In honor of Black History Month 2014, each Monday in February Mormon Coffee’s blog post will address a topic related to racism in Mormon history. Today guest blogger Lynn Wilder presents Part 2 of the series she began last week.]
LDS author Stephen Taggart (Negro Policy: Social and Historical Origins, 1970) writes that it was Joseph Smith who put all of the elements in place for the church to accept a priesthood restriction for blacks. After Joseph’s death, the church’s semi-official paper, Times and Seasons, printed in 1846 that the blood of Israel had exclusive rights to the priesthood, implying that other blood lines such as the blood of Canaanites, did not. Patriarchal blessings identified Mormons with the non-cursed tribe of Ephraim from the 1830s.
Although at least two black men, Elijah Abel ordained by Zebedee Coltrin and Walter Lewis ordained by William Smith, received the priesthood during Joseph’s lifetime, Joseph did not ordain them. Ordained in 1836, Elijah Abel could merely enter the Kirtland temple for foot washings and later baptisms for the dead. He was excluded from the 
Nauvoo endowment ritual. After Joseph died, hundreds of endowments occurred in the temple before the exodus, but Elijah Abel was not among them. Irrefutably according to Mormon doctrine, he needed to receive his temple endowments to enter the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom in a role greater than that of a servant. So did Jane Manning James, once Smith’s housekeeper. She pleaded with church leaders for decades to give her permission to take out her endowments. Smith did not offer the privilege to her, nor did Brigham Young after him, but in 1894 she was allowed to be sealed to Joseph Smith’s family as a servant.
Taggart and Fawn Brodie (No Man Knows My History, 1945) as well as some non-LDS historians suggested that the Mormon Church’s anti-abolitionist, proslavery attitude began in Missouri in the 1830s. Missouri was a slave state and suspicious that the incoming “Saints” might allow free blacks to come to Missouri. The LDS church took a stand, non-LDS historians say, for survival. In the Messenger and Advocate (vol. 2, no. 7, p. 300, April 1836), Smith declares that slavery was ordained by God and consistent with the gospel of Christ.
“…we unhesitatingly say…the project of emancipation is destructive to our government, and the notion of amalgamation is devilish!-And insensible to feeling must be the heart, and low indeed must be the mind, that would consent for a moment, to see his fair daughter, his sister, or perhaps, his bosom companion, in the embrace of a NEGRO!
We entreat our brethren of the Eastern, the free States, the Canadas, and all, wherever they may be found, not to be surprised or astonished at this step, which we have thus publicly taken: were they acquainted with the present condition of the slave, they would see that they could not be freed, and we enjoy our present, civil and social societies. And further, that this matter cannot be discussed without exciting the feelings of the black population, and cause them to rise, sooner or later, and lay waste and desolate many parts of the Southern country.
This cannot be done without consigning to the dust thousands of human beings. And the bare reflection of being instrumental in causing unprovoked blood to flow, must shock the heart of every saint.”
Whether or not a few black men received the priesthood, they were denied the blessings of the temple endowments and sealings. Whether or not the racist posture coalesced in Missouri, it originated in the scriptures and the teachings that Joseph Smith himself brought forth. These are the very scriptures that the LDS church teaches came from God Himself and are “utterly reliable” and “pure truth.”
—
Joseph Smith Founder of LDS Racist Scriptures and Teachings: Part 1
If the Foundation is Rotten, All that Joseph Smith Built Tumbles (aka Part 3)
I mentioned on a previous thread that if someone really wants to know what 19th century Mormons believed and practiced, just examine the various Mormon sects who would fall into the “fundamentalist” category. This then ends any discussion about a prophet’s “opinion” or “folklore” that just sort of sprung-up without anyone really knowing where it came from.
When the ban on blacks in the priesthood was declared, did the prophet say, “Thus saith the Lord”? If not we can assume that in Mormondom what we are dealing with is just a policy change and not a revelation. Did the Mormon god change his mind or did the Mormon leadership just make a policy change because of social and political pressure to do so. I don’t think the Mormon prophet gave the “Thus saith the Lord” cover when polygamy ended. In fact, the leadership continued to practice polygamy.
If this was just a policy change, it brings into account the Mormon prophets who perpetrated this ban basing it on doctrine rather than simply preference.
When we look at how Mormon leaders drifted further away from the gospel that Paul preached
in his missionary travels , with their teachings about Negros , we see his warning in 2 Tim 4: ,4
come alive . The people who followed Joseph Smith were being set up for spiritual deception.
Not only did they see him begin to drift into doctrinal error with some one the things that were
beginning to be mentioned by him and those he mentored , but this slide into ” another” gospel
only picked up steam with those in leadership after him . It had become evident that their
gospel preaching was even contrary to what their first missionaries had preached .
Those that followed these latter days prophets were being tossed to and fro —Eph 4:14 .
Brigham Young refused correction and false doctrine continued to affect the lives of all
Mormons for over a century .
The good news is that many Mormons in recent years have become aware of what their leaders
taught about Black skin/curse of Cain . Conscientious Mormons have discovered that they are
the victims of a broken trust , they have seen first hand that their leaders can’t be trusted as
reliable guides in what they have taught about Black people , this fact has led them to look
into this issue and they have discovered additional problems . Being faithful to God allowed
them to dismiss their leaders and turn to Jesus , recognizing in Him is safety from false prophets
in the latter days —Matt 24:11
If we look at 19th century Utah Mormonism there were certain things that were fundamental to the faith. These things were polygamy, Adam-God doctrine and the ban on blacks in the priesthood. This was doctrine and it was at the same time tradition. The fundamentalist Mormon sects, as far as I know, still operate according to these doctrines.
Concerning blacks and the priesthood, fundamentalists generally believe:
“God gave a revelation to Joseph Smith denying blacks the priesthood. Church leaders understood and followed it until when, in 1978, uninspired men (President Kimball and the Council of the Twelve Apostles), using their own wisdom, changed the commandment. Giving Blacks the priesthood has resulted in the loss of the priesthood, defilement of the temples and His divine displeasure.”(2)
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/Blacks.html
So has the LDS church then defiled its temples and lost the priesthood by allowing blacks the priesthood?
Actually it doesn’t matter I guess except to the fundamentalists. The point is that the LDS church morphs into what ever it wants to be regardless of past revelations and traditions.
Falcon,
I suggest that the best way to describe what Mormon leaders have been up to since 1830
is : ” they teach for doctrine the commandments of men …” [ PGP Joseph Smith history 1: 19 ]
This thread topic would’nt be such a big deal if it were’nt for the fact that Mormon leaders have
claimed to be the exact same church that Jesus established through His apostles 2000 years ago .
And that everyone else is ultimately outside the true fold of Christ , being part of what
constitutes the church of the Devil in these latter days .
Lynn, what was your source for info on these people?
Thank you.
I’d heard of Elijah Abel, but not Walter Lewis. I didn’t know about Jane Manning James either. I’m assuming they must have seen some value in staying with the church. I’m sad about them.
This is an interesting quote from Smith. I feel like he’s saying that getting rid of slaves is not worth the blood shed, but he still says very clearly he does not want the white youth hanging out with blacks. His support of abolition is questionable in this quote, but his dislike of black is transparent.
Nicely done Lynn. Recently, I acquired the minutes of a Cincinnati Conference that was held on June 25, 1843, in which Elijah Able was present. They are extremely interesting. For those that want to believe that Joseph Smith or ANY of the Mormon leadership at that time supported Abolitionism, they are enlightening. At the April Conference of the Church it was decided that Joshua Grant be sent to preside of the Cincinnati Branch of the Church. The next month there was a Conference there to settle some difficulties that had arisen. As Grant explains in the minutes of the Conference,
According to the minutes, here is who was present that day (in addition to the membership of the Branch):
Here is the relevant portion of the minutes that have to do with Abel,
Here we find that Able got angry with some of the comments made by the person just chosen to be the Presiding Elder of the branch (Joshua Grant), concerning policy about the blacks. Abel stated that he was not trying to force equality of whites and blacks. How could he be accused of this if they were already looked upon as equals? Now this is interesting, because the “Apostles” who were there, affirmed that they ordained people to preach to “their own country and kin”.
So, if the Mormons were all about equality for the blacks, why was there so much tension about it in this meeting? What was the policy that was spoken of that had to do with Abel? Why was Abel to be sent only to preach to blacks, like they were of another country? Why did Able try to defend himself on the question of equality? Why did Joshua Grant speak sharply to Abel? And why was it Abel that had to make a confession and was wrong, when obviously Grant admitted that he had done wrong by Abel also? How was Able “misused’? What were they worried about “introducing before the public”? Abel himself? Why? Why the racial limitation of sending a black man to only blacks? They also mention in these minutes that it was not necessary to consult with the “prophet” Joseph Smith, because the 12 had authority from him to enforce policy.
All of this shows that there was something going on long before the problems with William McCary in 1847. There was some policy in place regarding blacks. Blacks were limited in who they could preach to. They were not considered equals in the Church. The Mormons were far from Abolitionists. They did not support Abolitionism. Joseph Smith did not want to equalize blacks in America, he wanted to (as late as 1844) send them to another country (Mexico), and was fining blacks in Nauvoo that married whites. Blacks were “praised” by Mormons for becoming “civilized”, but they were certainly not considered equals when it came to ruling in the church, or preaching the gospel to whites.
Mike,
I was thinking the same thing. The major claims of LDS folks is that they have a restored gospel that was lost upon the death of the original apostles. That’s such a bogus claim that it borders on childishness.
I always ask our LDS posters, “Could you please provide evidence that anything your current church or the LDS church past teaches, practices and/or believed was part of the first century church?”
It’s always the sound of crickets in response.
Polygamy in order to reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and godhood, Adam-God doctrine and the ban on blacks in the priesthood were all intricate at a point in time to the LDS/SLC Mormon sect. If I were a Mormon, I’d ask where all these fundamental beliefs and practices went.
If they have the one true church and a restored gospel, they ought to be able to answer for these things.
Falcon,
I learned a long time ago that Mormon leaders could’nt be trusted as consistent reliable guides
in gospel preaching . Their teaching track record reveals a pattern , one of being unstable ,
vacillating in what they have introduced to their flock as gospel preaching ( Paul warns us
to be aware of men whose teachings are not what he calls ” sound doctrine ” ) .
This teaching about Negroes that Mormon leaders introduced to their flock is a classic example
of why the Mormon people should walk away from them . Following these latter days prophets
is not in a safe thing to do —- Mk 13:22-23 .
Mormon leaders have created the lie about a alleged total / universal apostasy of Jesus’ church ,
His gospel was altered and false doctrines were introduced . Listen to them describe others :
” Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret
the scriptures …. False ideas were taught as truth . ” [ Church Manual , Preach My Gospel , p35]
This doctrine about Black skin / curse which was taught by Mormon leadership is not the
” restored ” gospel of Jesus , rather it is only the false ideas of some men who claimed to be
Jesus’ modern day prophets who proceeded to wrap it up and label it as gospel preaching .
However , it was in large part simply teaching copied from some of the apostates in their day .
I believe that God has always tried to get the attention of the Mormon people , it hurts Him to
see sincere people be fooled by men who claim they have been sent by Him , but who have not
been . The Mormon people can be free from these men and their ” restored ” gospel ( Gal. 1:8 )
by walking away from them and over to trusting Jesus alone . He has provided the true gospel
of salvation that has liberated multitudes of people from following false latter day prophets .
This doctrine about Negros taught by their leaders was/ is the wake up call for the Mormon
people to make a decision who to follow .
Is there no LDS person eager to debate about this post?
In my experience, it seems that when certain topics come up, most active LDS go silent. They may hold a different opinion than church leadership but they won’t speak up. When I was LDS I did that, telling myself it would get sorted out in the next life.
Jardim,
I can see how some Mormons would reason the way you did , especially on a important teaching
such as the topic here . My wife was once a member of a autocratic religion with claims of
exclusive authority to represent God very similar to Mormonism’s . When the prophet she
followed made a decision members were told to keep their opinions to themselves and not pit
their reasoning against the will of Jehovah lest they incur His anger . This convinced rank and file
members to hesitate to test any new teaching ( Acts 17:11 , 2Pt 2:1 ) . Basically , it was keep
your mouth shut and get back in line ( Apostle McConkie said a similar thing to those who were
asking serious questions to him about the 1978 change in teaching about Blacks and the
priesthood ban shortly after the ban was lifted ) .
This sort of thing can give a false prophet a free pass , as was evident in the Mormon church
for such a long , long , time concerning this doctrine .
Thank the Lord your eyes were opened and you can think wisely now .
Elijah Abel and Jane Manning serve as a good example of how following the latter days prophets
of Mormonism will result in sincere people being short changed because they were deceived by
these men into embracing a imitation gospel . This whole affair gives credence of why Paul’s
warning in Gal 1:8-9 is an vital to remember in evaluating the teachings of prophets who come
our day .
Jardim said
You will find if you stick around long enough, most Mormons if and when they do come here, wont debate most topics. If it covers doctrine and things of that nature, like the trinity for example, they avoid it. It it is something like, did JS have many wives or shoot and kill 3 people, they will debate it till their death.
I believe the Non salvation issues are what they will go after, but not the real issues.
Mike R, thank you. I am grateful every day! I was blessed to find a Christian congregation where the pastor encouraged me to open my eyes and learn for myself.
I just did a really quick search online about Black History Month as celebrated by churches. Presbyterians, Episcopalians, United Methodists, United Church of Christ all have something posted…Mormons nothing church-wide. Their onsite search lists a few articles in the Ensign from more than a decade ago, or local events from prior years.
Rick B, yes, it’s like when I was a Mormon missionary and we were taught to avoid “Bible-bashing.” Basically, don’t get in debates over doctrine. Hmmm, maybe I would have learned something sooner if I had!
Its been a few days since FoF has posted. Curious.
To be honest, I have a hard time seeing how LDS can honestly buy into this stuff. OK, those that are born into it I see. But I don’t know how they get converts. The nasty stuff in their past, and present for that matter, is astonishing. Here, Smith clearly states he does not want his loved ones in the arms of black slaves. He also hedges his bets on freeing the slaves, a far cry from the common message sent by LDS that he was a staunch abolitionist.
The message sent by LDS is that this was one of those things LDS HAD to do by order of god. They don’t know why, but they just know god commanded it, so let’s go along with it…
I’m repeating myself but………………………………….
How does the LDS church get off billing itself as the “one true church” with a “restored gospel”? I really don’t get it. They can’t prove that what they preach, believe and practice is the same as the first century church. The LDS church has swerved and jumped and skidded all over the place and that should be enough to convince any faithful Mormon that the claim of first century restoration is totally bogus.
Then of course we ask, “Which version of Mormonism has what these folks consider the real restored gospel?” The FLDS say that the LDS are apostates because they don’t follow Brigham Young Mormonism. This includes polygamy, ban on blacks in the priesthood and Adam-God doctrine. We could go on.
Why doesn’t some Mormon look into the Lorenzo Snow testimony about Jesus appearing to him. My understanding is that like all things Mormon there’s the real version and the sanitized, molded and shaped version. What follows, I think, comes from the Ogden Kraut school of Mormonism.
I’ll link to the blog site where this appears and let the reader make a judgement regarding what I see as dissension in the Mormon ranks.
After leaving the Holy of Holies, in this distraught state, he enters a hallway. There in the hallway he receives an unexpected vision of Christ, the same vision noted in the “official” church account. The “official” church records suggest that the purpose of the vision was merely to communicate how Lorenzo should direct and set-up the first presidency. According to Kraut, however, Lorenzo was told – among other things – that the Lord could not (or would not) appear to him there in the Holy of Holies, over the altar. As Snow was now the presiding High Priest, the common protocol (if we’re even to assume that Christ cares about protocol, and there’s enough evidence to suggest that he doesn’t) would be for Him to appear to Snow in his official capacity. There, however, in the hallway Christ proceeds to tell Lorenze that the vision was not happening as the result of becoming the presiding High Priest of the Church, with the passing of Wilford Woodruff, rather, this “meeting” had nothing to do with him being in that position. Lorenzo is then told that the Lord would not appear him in that capacity, and mostly because the church had rejected Him. Given that the Church had rejected the Savior, the Savior could no longer appear to the Church, or so the “unofficial” story goes. The Savior appeared to Lorenzo as an individual, and only as an individual.
http://truthmarche.wordpress.com/2010/09/17/personal-and-institutional-rejection-of-him/
MJP said
FoF does that every once in a while. He cannot answer some tough questions so he runs away until things cool down, then he comes back acting as if nothing ever happened.
FOF is a troll,
But he’s OUR troll.
Amirite? 😉
I for one like to see folks like FOF here. It’s one of the reasons I come around. They make the site much more interesting and even challenging at times. It all goes back to this proverb
quote:
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
(Proverbs 18:17)
end quote:
Now I must admit that I find the pro LDS arguments put forth by the likes of FOF to be pretty weak but I feel that God gets glory when such arguments are dealt with honestly and fairly.
quote:
We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
(2 Corinthians 10:5)
and
These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;
(Zechariah 8:16)
end quote:
Peace
Jim Spencer, in his book “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately”, talks about the different “types” of Mormons a person might encounter. They vary from the “arrogant true believer” to the “naive true believer”. The latter is one who just really doesn’t have any idea of the history of the sect and simply swallows everything the LDS church feeds him/her. The former is just like the label implys “arrogant”. He/she “knows” they have the truth and pretty much thinks that anyone who doesn’t believe in the Mormon gospel is a fool.
Among the various types are the ones with the adjective “questioning” attached to them. These are the Mormons who have this nagging suspicion that all might not be as advertised in the religion and are asking themselves questions and looking for answers.
We have three Mormons who show-up here on a regular to semi regular basis and post. I think one is naive, one is arrogant and the third I’d place some where in between. I’m guessing that the majority of Mormons who come here, read but don’t post and are questioning. That’s why they’re here.
My impression is that the questioners are most often very secretive in their pursuit and I can clearly understand why. In Mormonism, unless maybe you are a member of the CofC sect, you don’t openly question. In the Mormon world, serious questioning is the enemy of faith in the religion. The only time it isn’t is when someone “confesses” to have had doubts, done some research, but now their faith in Joseph Smith, the BoM and the LDS church is stronger than before. There’s a special merit badge for these folks.
I’ve found that it generally takes a Mormon about 18 months or so of considerable study and research to come to the conclusion that the religion is a ruse. It then takes another five years to exorcise most of the religion from their minds. Some of it, of course, always pokes its head up from time to time. Indoctrination is a tough thing to overcome.
Here’s the deal, however, two-thirds of those on the roll of the LDS sect are inactive. Its been estimated that fifty percent of returned missionaries go inactive within five years. There are more members of the LDS sect resigning everyday and it has alarmed the General Authorities. What we know from this is that the LDS church is leaking, perhaps gushing members.
First we have Mormon leaders declaring that they are officers in Jesus ‘ church , restored after
1700 years of being absent on the earth , and that salvation was now again available to mankind .
What was the gospel message that these men preached in their pulpits and travels ? Full gospel
privileges/blessings for to all peoples , races , skin color ? It seems that this was the case , but it
did’nt last very long as we notice Mormon leaders slide into apostasy culminating with Brigham
Young’s gospel teaching about Negroes . A hundred years later some faithful disciples of
Young proudly proclaimed :
” The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them …” [ McConkie ]
” ….the church of Jesus Christ of LDS has no call to carry the gospel to the Negro, and it does
not do so .” [ Arthur Richardson ]
The case of Elijah Abel can help to shed some light on Mormonism’s ” restored gospel ” and
expose it as the counterfeit it is . This poor man fared much better than most Blacks under the
rule of Mormon leaders , but he was still not much more than a pawn , tossed around doctrinally
by his leaders , the victim of those Jesus said would come —latter day false prophets , men
introducing a counterfeit gospel . Elijah Abel can serve as a example of why no one should
trust Mormon authorities as reliable guides . Their hit and miss record of providing accurate
gospel truths about Jesus or His gospel is available to examine for those concerned about the
danger of being fooled by well dressed , polite , individuals who claim they are Jesus’ modern
day church officers with His ” restored ” gospel .
The Mormon people , especially Elijah Abel , were decent God fearing people who deserved
better .
Mike,
Isn’t it interesting how we have a religion that is totally different today then in what I’d call its hay day of doctrinal revelation in the 19th century. Then look at McConkie. Wasn’t he the guy that was throwing BY under the bus on the Adam-God doctrine? Wasn’t McConkie known as the “go to guy” for the leaders of the LDS church in his time?
Now it appears that McConkie is getting thrown under the same bus. There are so many leaders that have been thrown under the LDS bus that the bus can’t move any more. It’s analogous to the LDS “shelf” that many Mormons put stuff like polygamy, ban on blacks in the priesthood and Adam-God until the shelf collapses.
Now McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” book, once venerated by Mormons, isn’t even published by LDS Inc. any more.
To be fair, from what I’ve been able to gather, McConkie was considered some what of a loose cannon by his fellow LDS leaders. One writer even speculated that at the end of his life, Bruce had a testimony of Bruce such was his self-regard.
This is one strange religion/church in my estimation. Why in the world do people continue to have confidence in these leaders? It baffles me!
Lynn,
I think you might enjoy this since BYU professors are mentioned in regards to this topic. It’s nine minutes in length and the presenter is Kevin Kraut son of Mormon fundamentalist Ogden Kraut.
Kevin is quite a “story” teller. It gets interesting right at the end around the 8:25 mark.
This Kevin Kraut, now there’s a REAL Mormon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNa-DoWoQgs
Falcon,
It’s interesting to note that Mormon leaders have claimed that they can be trusted to teach
correctly , as President Charles Penrose promised this about Mormonism :
” It speaks with no uncertain sound . It utters the voice of authority . …it is definite in its
revealments and doctrines . Dubiety remains not under its influence . ”
[ Why I am a Mormon , p5 ] .
His colleagues 100 years later were promising the same thing about their doctrinal teachings :
” You can always trust the living prophets .” [ True to the Faith p 129 ] .
These same men have also reminded their flock that other churches are not the place to look
for consistent , stable , trustworthy gospel preaching on important doctrines . Why ?
Apostle LeGrand Richards tells us why : ” Because they have not understood the scriptures
and being without revelation and the priesthood of God , they have had to depend upon their
own interpretation of the scriptures for their guidance ” .
Yet what have the Mormon people received as guidance in gospel preaching from their leaders?
This thread topic is one example of such guidance . Paul warned it would come —2 Tim 4:3,4 .
Mormon leaders have been no better guides than the very ones they like to point their fingers
at .
McConkie ? He was faithful to his predeccessors in leadership when it came to passing on
the doctrines of Mormonism . Was his book Mormon Doctrine put out to pasture doctrinally?
It seems that as the Church was beginning to accelerate more in a proselytizing move toward
those in other churches it became expedient to downplay some of what he wrote in it .
Interestingly , his book Mormon Doctrine was used for decades after his death in Church
manuals etc , and it is still well liked by many members . Mormon leaders and their apologist
front men are engaging in a red herring tactic with his Mormon Doctrine these days .
What he believed about important doctrines was also believed and publically taught by those
in leadership before him , so people should’n think he was some kind of anomaly .
I like it when people like FoF come around, I point out how he avoids certain topics as well as people like Ralph and Shem and many others. Can you say, Trinity Topic?
In addation to certain topics that they avoid, I point out how they avoid lots of hard questions and they either run away or make excuses. It’s inmy opinion a win/win. Lurkers can see and read them say, We believe our church is the one true true, But I wont answer any questions I dont like.
They say, we believe the Bible, and the Bible says, Be ready in season and out of season to give an answer to every man that ask for the hope that lies with in you. So when we ask questions they wont answer them. O well, it just tells me what questions to ask the MM that knock on my door. Thanks FoF and other LDS
Where in the bible did Jesus preach to the blacks? Where in the bible did Jesus tell his apostles to preach to the Jews but not the gentiles? After the resurrection did Jesus change his policy on these two questions? This is what should be discussed. If the Mormon church is the same church Christ founded, then their policies should reflect the fact that Christ has the power and right to tweak his stance on such issues at different times. So. what are the answers to my questions? I want to know the truth. I don’t have patience for people who twist the bible.
OrionRa, I am beginning to think you are not sincere in your questions. Christ clearly exemplified preaching his gospel beyond the Jews. If you do not know this, I urge you to read the NT, specifically the stories of the woman at the well and the story of the good neighbor. And there are more.
Its also important to note who Philip baptized.
No, Jesus did not change his policy.
TheHorusOrionRa
I dont have patience for people who lie and come here and troll.
The way you worded everything makes me question if you reall want the truth? First off you never did state if your Mormon or otherwise, if you did I have not as of this reply seen it.
Then you accuse us of twisting the scripture, yet provide no evidence of this, if you feel any one here did, you never quoted anyone saying such stuff, so you toss it out in a “I accuse you style” and come off as a troll.
I for one will not sit back and play these games, Old man said I bite, well in some ways I do. It just dependes upon who.
Orion,
We’ll put up with you for a while but at a certain point you’re going to get the troll sign put around your neck and you are going to have to stand in the naughty boy corner.
We get guys like you showing up here now and then and you’ve been identified as a bomb thrower. When you ask a sincere question or make a cogent comment, you’ll garner status as someone who has a clue.
I take it you’re LDS and if your the best the sect has to offer, it’s in real trouble.
Personally I have no idea what you’re talking about but here’s something for you to consider. Jesus is God. God is soverign.
The LDS prophets are clueless as are you.
Orion,
How do you know who is twisting the Bible if you are searching for the truth? If you know who is twisting it implies you have some knowledge of truth, elsewise how do you know what they say is twisting anything?
I guess I’ll bite…………..just for fun.
Did Jesus preach to blacks? The Bible, as far as I know doesn’t tell us if he did or didn’t. The ban on blacks in the priesthood in the LDS/FLDS sects really has nothing to do with who Jesus preached to or who he didn’t preach to. The whole Mormon restored gospel is bogus so the question is irrelevant.
I can tell from the question that our buddy knows absolutely nothing about the Bible.
Secondly, why did Jesus go to the Jews first? Here’s what needs to be done in order to understand the entire story, read the NT. Read especially anything that has the words “grafted into” and any concepts dealing with the gentiles being adopted.
Here’s the problem when we have folks showing up with really off-the-wall questions. They have no foundation of understanding regarding the Word of God and God’s plan of salvation. The Bible isn’t that complicated. Go back to the beginning of the Gospel according to Luke when the angel Gabriel appears to the Virgin Mary. The words house, throne and kingdom are quite prominent. What does it mean in relationship to the Abrahamic Covenant, the Palestinian Covenant, the Davidic Covenant and finally the New Heart Covenant found in Jeremiah?
I think our friend needs to get the basics down.
Hey Orion,
Apparently you are confusing the the religious distinction of Jew/Gentile with the racial distinction or black/white.
Jews can and did have dark skin all it took to be a Jew is to obey the law Moses and accept circumcision there are no skin color requirements. When Jesus chose to preach too Jews first he was making a religious choice not a racial one.
Racial distinction based on skin color did not even exist in the first century it is the byproduct of attempts to defend chattel slavery.
I hope that helps
peace
Racial categories based on skin color did not exist in the first century th.
You know kids how they know when something is wrong, and over time they learn how to not feel or think when something is wrong from adults.
When I read the Stapley letter back in Sep 2011 as i told Lynn Wilder and Sandra Tanner here in Central Fl about a month ago, I wept because i knew deep in my heart it was wrong like a child.
And how and why did it take me from Feb 15, 1975 when I was baptized into the church at 17 , serve a mission at 19, to learn this 30 plus years later ?
And why did it not stop with that letter ?
It fact I have learned more in the last 2 and half years , the REAL TRUTH, than I did the last 35 years.
I felt like Jason Borne , i finally discovered who I really was, not what they had created .
It is a wonderful inner peace of not being on the Mormon mental steel trap treadmill .
But to walk with Jesus is far better than that MMSTT.
God bless all who have left that , and thank God to those who never got on it .
Ironman,
Good on you!
Don’t look at what you lost in those 35 years in the LDS church, look at what you have left in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
When you talked to Sandra and Lynn, was it at a presentation they were doing? I’d like to hear about it if you wouldn’t mind sharing.
…………….and better late than never, as the old saying goes!
Fifth Monarchy Man,
Thank you for answering my questions and not attacking me for asking. I just did some research on what you posted and found major support for what you said. It seems that a few things in my other posts lead some to read to much into them. I sincerely apologize. I don’t know what a troll is but it doesn’t sound nice. I do have a few friends that are Mormon and many that are not. I just want to know what is going on without offending either side. I hope everyone will respect that and respect each other too. Thank you.
HoRa
A troll is someone whose main goal is just to disrupt a discussion and get folks chasing about giving answers but not really interested (in those answers). It’s a form of blogger anarchy. It’s like a kid who insults someone and runs away just to get the person to chase them. I’d say that’s what a troll is!
FOF
It must be a total bummer to come here and have to try to push back against folks who were once true believers like yourself and who have found out the whole LDS program is a sham, a ruse and totally not true. So I see where you look for a simple answer, most of the time a form of insult, to try and find an explanation other than the one that fits. The one that fits is that these are honest sincere people who figured out that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, that the BoM is not true and that the LDS church is not God’s chosen church with a modern day prophet as its head.
What they have figured out is that the Jesus promoted by the LDS church is not the Jesus revealed in the Bible. Having come to know who Jesus is, they have secured their salvation through faith in Him.
I hope you keep coming here breathing fire because then we at least have the opportunity to preach the gospel to you and in doing so give you the opportunity to find your salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.
I will continue to pray that God, through His Holy Spirit, will break the chains that bind you and dissipate the dark cloud of confusion that surrounds you. I pray this in Jesus Name!
Falcon,
Thank you for explaining what a troll is. I ask questions to get answers. I appreciate your answer.
Hey HorusOrionRa,
You said,
Thank you for answering my questions and not attacking me for asking
I say,
You are welcome.
If you don’t mind allow me to give you a little advise.
1)If you really are a truth seeker it will be evident by your actions. You won’t need to tell folks they will be able to see it.
2) While it is admirable that you “don’t have patience for people who twist the bible” you probably don’t need to proclaim that when you ask a question. It’s possible that people will assume you are accusing using them of scripture twisting before they even begin to talk with you. If the answers you get are not true to what the Bible there is plenty of time to point it out after the fact.
Finally it’s really hard to read someones tone and intentions on an internet forum. Often times simple passion can seem like rudeness or meanness.
I find it to be the best policy to bend-over backward to try and give others the benefit of he doubt.
Do with that what you will
peace
Thank you for the sound advice.
TheHorus OrionaRa,
You have accepted Fifth Monarch Man’s correction of your view about Jesus and His apostles
mission to those other than Jews , now how does a person evaluate Mormon leaders teachings
about Blacks which is the topic of this thread ? Can you see why Mormon leaders are suspect
of being self appointed , although well meaning , apostles not sent by Jesus ?
Did you know that the apostle Paul warned to be on the watch for such individuals after he
was gone ? Do you see the seriousness of this issue ? You need to make a decision about this
at some point in your life , who are you going to follow — Jesus’ original apostles or those who
claim to be His apostles 1700 years later who teach a gospel like those in the Mormon leadership
have . Please read Galatians 1:8-9 .
Also , care to share about what Horus-Orion-Ra means ? is ” Ra” the Egyptian Sun god ?
Mike R,
THOR. The Horus Orion and Ra are all Egyptian. Many Egyptians searched for truth and meaning. They were curious. They loved to learn and discuss. The way I understand and see the world tomorrow might be different in light of what I learn today.
TheHorusOrionRa,
Thanks for the reply . I understand what you said , but do you worship those gods ?
Do you care to comment on what else I said ? After all, that is the topic of this thread .
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I don’t think they are real gods. It’s just a symbolic and cultural thing. I think that the Egyptians may have known something that I don’t. Back to the thread. There are quite a few religions with leaders that claim to be appointed by a higher power, just like others did in the bible after Christ left. How do these other guys fit into what was said by Paul? How does one know who has been justly appointment and who like others have said just claim appointment? Please note that these are solely respectful examples of religions not me making fun of what they believe: Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Islam, ect.
THOR,
you asked, ” How do these other guys fit into what was said by Paul ? How does one know
who has been justly appointed and who like others have said just claim appointment ? ”
As a ministry to the Mormon people I appreciate that their leadership has stated that Mormons
should have a high regard for the Bible , that it is God’s Word . This gives us common ground .
Since the apostle Paul , for instance , taught the true gospel of salvation ( Rom 1:16 ) therefore
when he /we are approached by someone claiming special insight on the scriptures or who
might claim to have been appointed by God to introduce new doctrines , those teachings need
to agree with what Paul preached , if not I can be reasonably sure that they have not heard
from God , it’s not spiritual truth from God . This is why Paul himself warns us about being
leery of such individuals in Gal 1:8 and elsewhere in the New Testament ( 2Cor 11:1-15).
Sincere people are fooled by the outward appearance of and smooth talk of certain lawyers,
car salesmen or politians today , deception abounds . The apostle John long ago issued
sage advise to avoid spiritual counterfeits by taking the time to test them — 1John 4:1-6 — and
this is still the major means for avoiding false prophets today .
This problem would be especially prevelant in the latter days according to Jesus in Matt 24:11.
Interestingly, Mormon leaders agree that this is the latter days , so I can remind them of how
appropriate Jesus’ warning is for them to hear . Sadly these men have fallen for the error
which Paul warned would happen and therefore they are of whom Jesus predicted would appear
in the latter days . This thread topic highlights one of the false doctrines introduced by the
latter day prophets of the Mormon church . I therefore can not follow them or accept their
authority . They may be well meaning individuals but Jesus never sent them , and that’s what
ultimately counts .
It’s my prayer for Mormons to return to the Bible as their sole written standard of truth about
God , Jesus, and salvation . They don’t need their latter day prophets or what they call their
“restored ” gospel . The Bible has been called the bedrock of the Christian faith , and there is
safety in sticking with it rather than following the latter day prophets of Mormonism because
of their claim to be appointed and are personally supervised by Jesus to introduce what they
say is His ” restored gospel ” .
Hope that helps .
Those scriptures confirm that we need to be careful of false prophets. Thank you for your response.
THOR,
I’m glad that you can understand that false prophets are prevelant today . You must render a
verdict about Mormon leaders . I’m not going to stretch this issue further since I’ve made
a common sense case concerning the Bible’s testimony relevant to these men in Salt Lake City
who claim to be latter day prophets and the only authorized ones God has commissioned to
reveal His important truths .
So tell me , are they false prophets ? Yes or no ?
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