Last month (30 January 2014) Newsweek published an article about Mormons leaving the LDS Church. Though Journalist Hannah Miet writes about some of the difficulties people have had in leaving Mormonism, she really misses the depth of emotional struggles attendant with becoming ex-Mormon.
Unfortunately, Ms. Miet devotes 25% of her article to something she treats as an amusing novelty: ex-Mormons learning to drink alcohol. And in so doing, she demonstrates that she really doesn’t get it.
The former Mormons interviewed for the article talked about their experiences as believing Mormons, as doubting Mormons, and as ex-Mormons. They told Ms. Miet things like:
“‘[Mormon] People intuitively know that first and foremost their primary identity is a nameless soldier in the army of Mormonism,’ said Chou… He stressed the importance of being ‘proactive’ in a state where many are scared to voice their doubts about the church, which has…a disciplinary council that can order an excommunication of any church member who strays, a modern-day scarlet letter that cuts a person off from all active LDS members.”
“‘It sounds crazy to outsiders, but simple facts have the power to shatter the world of a Mormon,’ he [Chou] says. ‘The more you discover…the more you are pushed closer and closer to this abyss and you don’t know what’s at the bottom of it.’”
“’I think everyone involved [in Post-Mormon support groups] feels more free to be who they are,’ Chou says, surveying the room. ‘One of the most harmful things about Mormonism is that it creates false [sense of] self in people and they have to live in that space. And they think that’s happiness. I did. I thought that was happiness. Once the veil lifts, you wake up and you just think, This is how life should be.’”
A non-Mormon social worker who counsels ex-Mormons in Salt Lake City also tried to help Ms. Miet understand some of the struggles doubting Mormons face in Utah:
“Deanna Rosen…did not come here to specialize in ex-Mormon issues. As soon as she moved to Utah from Texas, though, the doubters found their way to her earth-toned office. Rosen is open about her Jewish faith, which may have been a beacon for Mormons ashamed to discuss their doubts with faith-promoting counselors at LDS Family Services. Though Rosen insisted, ‘There isn’t a counselor in Utah who doesn’t get Mormons with questions,’ Rosen insists, adding that the ‘gateway drug’ out of Mormonism is Google.”
“Mormonism is an ‘all or nothing’ commitment, Rosen explains. ‘If Pandora’s box is opened regarding questioning one policy or mandate, it leads to more, because it’s all connected. It’s not like other religions, where you can accept some parts and reject other parts. You have to accept the whole kit and caboodle. You have to accept every [church-mandated] “calling.” You have to go to every three-hour church meeting. If I didn’t go [to synagogue] for six months, the rabbi would be like, “I am so happy to see you.” You can’t do that as a Mormon.’”
“Many of Rosen’s patients fear losing their jobs at Mormon-owned companies, where watercooler chatter revolves around bishops, youth groups and callings. ‘[Ex-Mormons] have to find new peers and new families, so to speak, and sometimes, new places of employment,’ she says. ‘Leaving the church is almost like going into the witness protection program.’”
Yet somehow the flavor of Ms. Miet’s article seems to convey the idea that post-Mormon support groups are really about nothing more than “recruiting” people to their way of thinking – and drinking. She writes,
“As a Mormon missionary, Chou converted dozens of people in the Hawaiian Islands. Now, as self-proclaimed ‘PostMo’ in the Mormon world capital, he uses his recruitment training to get people out.
“McKinnon, an engineer for the Federal Aviation Administration, was doing her own brand of evangelizing by slipping an identical card into every locker in the women’s locker room. She recently printed 10,000 copies.”
And,
“Some former adherents act like soldiers for an ex-Mormon liberation army, seeking out the doubters within the church, extracting them, and bringing them to more tolerant territory. They plaster their calling cards all over…”
The “calling cards” Chou and McKinnon use simply say,
“Are you questioning the Mormon church? Thinking about leaving the Mormon church? Already left the Mormon church? YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO IT ALONE.”
Ms. Miet reports that PostMormon.org also put up billboards. The billboards say,
“PostMormon.org: You are not alone.”
And ex-Mormon Becky McKinnon explains,
“We see that people really are trapped in [LDS]. What we’re here to do is to catch these people when they fall.”
Ms. Miet wrote the article. She could not have missed the kinds of words her interviewees used to describe living in and leaving the world of Mormonism. Things like:
- Primary identity is a nameless soldier
- Scared to voice their doubts
- Facts have the power to shatter the world of a Mormon
- Closer and closer to this abyss
- False sense of self
- Fear of losing their jobs
- Like going into the witness protection program
It’s pretty clear that the former Mormons in Ms. Miet’s article have lived through some very difficult experiences. They understand the agony associated with discovering the truth about Mormonism. They have suffered through the fear and loneliness that comes with doubting a lifelong faith. They have lived the humiliation of the “scarlet letter” inflicted on many who leave the Mormon Church. And because of their experiences, they want to help the people who are now where they once were.
Ms. Miet doesn’t get it. The Post-Mormon message is not, “We can teach you how to order drinks at both bars and coffee shops!” The message is, “You are not alone. We offer you a safe and supportive community as you work through your fears and doubts — and beyond. Do not despair. There is life after Mormonism.”
We Christians here at Mormon Coffee long for former Mormons to not only recognize life after Mormonism, but to find the abundant life, the eternal life, that Jesus Christ — who is Himself the way, the truth, and the life — holds out as a gift for all who come to Him.
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Struggling with your Mormonism? Consider Christianity.
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Were all these examples of ex-mormons from different places or all from Utah? Did this article speak to any other ex-mormons who didn’t attend this one little groupthink? Herd poisoning is not just something that happens in certain religions. I read that the Mormon church is international. Should the sample to be true must also take this into account? It does sound like these people had a hard time.
Orion, do you have something to add?
I am sure the experiences of Utah ex-Mormons are different from those in other areas simply because of the population of Mormons being concentrated there, but I do think they all share similar experiences.
There are many ex-Mormons, from all over, who can speak to the question better than I can. What I can tell you is that I have heard similar stories all over and for long stretches of time, enough to gauge a trend. This trend is shown in this article.
Now, if you seek truth, be able to synthesize what is presented. Without doing so you will never find what it is you are looking for, assuming you are in fact looking.
Three points:
1. It is curious that in these types of articles that portray the church and its culture as controlling, dark, manipulative, and evil, the opposite is never, never represented- the hundreds of thousands of people who have joined the church and have experienced joy, peace, happiness, hope, and love. As always, this is simply a result of limiting information and trying to control perceptions. And those who spend their time criticizing the church have few other methods to rely upon. When the core of such arguments is limited to anecdotal, personal tales, why not also include those personal experiences that are polar opposite? Bias and manipulation.
2. The community of non-LDS and former LDS who spend their time in these types of “ministries” is toxic in their tone and approach. They simply come across as very unhappy and angry people. And while some people will fall in line with them, such communities and campaigns are generally not very effective in attracting normal, reasonable, and intelligent people.
3. As always, this type of campaign portrays members of the church as being controlled by the overwhelming desire to follow the crowd. It is more than a little ironic that all of these campaigns themselves rely upon peer pressure and the appeal of being embraced by numbers. “There are a lot of us,” “you are not alone,” “we offer a safe and supportive community,” are all mantras used in these hit pieces. It is very fitting that the folks who leave the church usually end up using the words and letters written by other people to request that their names be removed from the church records. In other words, in a secular and increasingly atheist world, those who leave are very often following the crowd, in principle and to the letter.
My wife was once a member of a religion very similar to Mormonism concerning claims
of authority , i.e. one prophet on earth who is God’s mouthpiece , salvation was in joining
the organization and no criticism of the prophet’s teachings were tolerated , a long list of
rules to keep ( no flag salute , no blood transfusions etc ) in order to keep safe from God’s
anger and not be kicked out of the kingdom . If you were kicked out ( disfellowshipped )
you were then shunned by your friends . This is a autocratic religion that has several
million loyal members .
We were privileged to speak in churches and on christian radio about how christians can
minister to these precious people , and helped facilitate a support group for ex members .
The emotion struggle that most ex member experience is deep and it was not easy helping
some of them overcome their fears , they were ” burned ” by religion , and thus had great
disillusionment with all religions . Then there were others who transitioned more quickly
out of their former mindset and came to discover in the person of Jesus the answer they were
looking for all along , they had been deceived into equating following Jesus with submitting
to the prophet and joining ” God’s organization ” to gain God’s approval and salvation.
May those Mormons who come to realize that Mormonism is not what it claims to be not
succumb to thinking that God now hates you , He is trying to lead you slowly to Him and
away from a latter days man made organization , a organization made of of many fine
hard working rank and file members , but which is run by a leadership that has misled
those members on important spiritual truths .
For ex Mormons I hope they can realize that in Jesus , not any religious organization
is where rest for their souls can be found . Don’t equate the Mormon church system with
the person of Jesus Christ . Avail yourself of the assistance of those who were once in your
in your shoes and have discovered there is life outside of the man made autocratic
organization that is Mormonism . There are several caring individuals on this blog that are
ex Mormons and have shared their experiences which may help you sort things out .
Many ex Mormons have found the real Jesus and placed their trust in Him alone . But some
are struggling with just what to believe and who to trust . I pray for these precious people
to go slow and not lose hope .
I imagine (or at least hope, on the assumption that he has some glimmer of decency, by customary human standards) that FoF would be filled with somewhat less bile if he even had an inkling of how people transitioning out of Mormonism are routinely treated by their purported friends and of how this tends to compound the emotional and spiritual turmoil routinely attached to such a process.
This “type of article” is, of course, specifically about the processes and experiences involved in leaving the LDS Church. Because of the operative narratives regarding the nature of faith and insider/outsider dialectic in Mormonism, many of these experiences are highly negative. I have a very close friend who left the LDS Church in the last year. She attempted to bear it no ill-will, but that becomes difficult when large swaths of former friends cut all social ties and when some begin using epithets like “spawn of Satan” and “daughter of perdition” and even claiming that serious illnesses she experienced are divine judgment. It is precisely because of these dynamics that support- and community-oriented approaches are prevalent in post-Mormon communities, since one’s relationship networks are so frequently decimated when one steps sufficiently out of lockstep with conventional Mormon life.
I’d very much like to think well of the LDS Church and the cultures and subcultures it promotes (though, of course, the LDS Church does remain theologically and spiritually deficient, even apart from these considerations). But so long as these sinful patterns remain in place, fostered both by omission and commission by those in positions of influence within those cultural networks, and so long as people like FoF remain blind to the problem and continue to sinfully heap scorn on those wounded by injustice within LDS circles, then it’s difficult to see hope for that.
FofF
“The community of non-LDS and former LDS who spend their time in these types of “ministries” is toxic in their tone and approach. They simply come across as very unhappy and angry people.”
And you come across as a hypocrite, you accuse LDS critics of completely misrepresenting the Corporation yet at the same time you totally misrepresent them as people. All the ex-Mormons I know of are very happy to have left the LDS, certainly a few come across as angry but why shouldn’t they be angry? Many have given their best years & huge amounts of money to an organization that has never ceased to practise deception at any time in its 200year history.
Your tone is insulting to all decent & honest ex-Mormons. A little while ago you implied my Ex wife was lying about her experience in the church yet she is one of the most honest people I know. You constantly show your contempt for those who discover the truth regarding LDS history & doctrine. You are simply following the party line. ‘Don’t attack the message, attack the messenger’
Finally in response to one of your comments and to LDS assertions that tithing is voluntary,
You said:
“It is curious that in these types of articles that portray the church and its culture as controlling, dark manipulative….” here’s a quote from one of your leaders:
Elder Bednar said:
“To those who are presently not obeying the law of tithing, I invite you to consider your ways and REPENT”
So there you have it, that’s why you’re considered NOT worthy if you don’t tithe, you’re a SINNER in need of repentance. You then have the gall to imply that those who say the LDS is authoritarian & deceptive are liars. Bednars words perfectly illustrate the manipulative nature of the LDS
Incidentally, his words prove conclusively that LDS salvation is a very different kettle of fish to Christian salvation, if tithing is voluntary in the LDS then even sinners are saved without having to repent. Think about it.
johnsepistle,
your comments were spot on .
Fof F is only showing his ignorance . He has to try and defend a man made religion and those
businessmen at the top who masquerade as modern day apostles.
As predicted, FoF shows up again, having ignored so many questions and issues. This particular issue is easy for him to respond to, as it only addresses those who leave the church. Its easy for him to dismiss those that do (remember, he called a great portion of them not very well educated in an early post). They, according to him, have something wrong with them.
He is exemplifies the article perfectly.
Johnsepistle,
So, in essence, you are saying that because you know a person who had serious struggles leaving the church, I should acquiesce, as all LDS should, to the claims and one-sided representation of our church and community? Wow. That is amazing. No real response to my points of only providing one side of the picture. Just- “how dare you question us and our pain.” (By the way, I very much doubt the third hand perspective you are providing here- while not impossible, I think it very unlikely).
Your post just reinforces what I am saying about the language and campaign to portray the church as dark, sinister, controlling, evil.
Old man- as people, we certainly go to great lengths to justify our anger and negative feelings. I get that. But angry people are angry. And those former members who spend lots of time criticizing the church publicly are usually very angry people. A balanced, reasonable, and healthy person deals with a disappointment and moves on with his or her life. These folks just don’t seem to do that. How am I misrepresenting them?
You say I implied your former wife was dishonest. Really? You need to be more critical and thoughtful in your thinking when you read the words of other people. On another thread, you expected me to take your former wife’s perspective or claims over my own experience. I, in essence, told you to go fly a kite, as any person would who has experience of their own. You are finding meaning in things that are not justified. That is just weak minded, in my opinion.
I “show contempt?” Yeah. But those who spend their days ranting about another faith and another group of people are loving, kind, and patient, right? I simply attempt to show the flawed thinking, logic, and methods of those who spend their time complaining about the faith of other people. I am not sorry that you do not like that.
Elder Bednar calls people to repentance, and you are offended by that. It really should not be hard for lurkers or people in general to see how shallow the arguments leveled here against the church and its members. Tell me how that does not represent the gospel of Christ. What was the one invitation that Christ extending more than any other in the four gospels? Repent. Repent. Are you offended by that? How is that “controlling, dark, evil, and sinister?”
The intellectual arguments leveled against the church are rarely truly intellectual.
MikeR- ever get tired of saying the same things? What am I defending? I am defending a standard of objectivity- providing a balanced perspective on any given issue. And that is nowhere found here. Only one side of the church is ever represented here, ever. There are far more people who join the church every year than leave the church. Millions of people have converted to the restored gospel and give testimonies of the peace and happiness found after they left their previous churches. But you would never know that by reading anything here. Why is that?
MJP- keep up the mantra- I don’t answer questions. That is fine. I will continue to offer my perspective on the ridiculous and one-sided propaganda that comes from this site.
You guys conflate many things. Some of those things are happy people who leave the church and the people who spend the rest of their lives complaining about the church. They are not one and the same group. Another two groups you conflate are happy Christians and those who spend their time complaining about the faith of other people. They are not one and the same. I do not think you see yourselves all that clearly.
I feel blessed–a few of my active Mormon friends still make an effort to talk to me as friends, and no one was outright rude to me when I left the church. Most were shocked, a few expressed sadness or disappointment. One saw that I had begun attending a Christian church and told me she thought God must be taking me back to the basics. She meant that I must need more milk and less meat. But she was correct–God took me to Jesus. I cannot even find words to say how grateful I am. I long for those I love to do the same, throw off the burden and shackles of a false religion and be free indeed. It’s not about what I can do, but what He has done.
I spent the first year or so very angry that I’d been so deceived. And yes, I feel a little socially retarded about a few things, like how to clean the coffee maker at church. But it sure is nice to trust God to work in me rather than flogging myself over being bored at a meeting or missing church or some other detail of my church-and-self-imposed race to perfection.
I highly recommend Jesus and Christianity to those I know who are questioning. I give away Bibles when I can. I am very happy that this blog exists, along with the other Christian ministries to Mormons and ex-Mormons.
And here’s a shout-out to Faithoffathers: I’m glad you’re here too!
You don’t answer questions. I’ve at least two outstanding: how does grace play into salvation when one does not complete the relevant works, and how does your throwing the apostle who wrote the letter stating blacks should not get the priesthood based on Smith’s words under the bus (taking the same position we do on LDS doctrine) play into your view of your leaders?
These two do not even consider the additional questions asked by other posters.
I can quote you on your opinion of those who leave the church. Shall I do so? I remember one clearly when you state that those who leave the LDS church and join traditional Christianity are not very well educated. Numerous times you have stated that those who leave the church did not read the Book of Mormon enough, or did not follow the program well enough. There are more.
Do not play a game wherein you distinguish happy exes and unhappy ones. Their happiness is irrelevant to your opinion of how and why the leave.
“A balanced, reasonable, and healthy person deals with a disappointment and moves on with his or her life. These folks just don’t seem to do that. How am I misrepresenting them?”
You are misrepresenting them in the words I have just quoted. Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be saying that anyone who criticizes your church cannot be balanced reasonable or healthy. Presumably you place yourself in the same category for not being able to stay away from here? Your attempt to classify ex-Mormons as bitter cynical people who have nothing better to do that criticise your church simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Do you really expect to come in here making misleading statements & expect them to sit back & say nothing? The people you are so keen to denigrate are busy building new lives for themselves but when confronted by the lies & deception of the Mormon church they will speak out, indeed they have a duty to speak out in the hope of preventing others from making the same mistakes. They don’t want anyone else to waste their lives & money on a false religion masquerading as a church for tax purposes.
“You are finding meaning in things that are not justified. That is just weak minded, in my opinion.”
Perhaps I am weak minded but at least I’m honest.
“Elder Bednar calls people to repentance, and you are offended by that. It really should not be hard for lurkers or people in general to see how shallow the arguments leveled here against the church and its members. Tell me how that does not represent the gospel of Chris. What was the one invitation that Christ extending more than any other in the four gospels? Repent. Repent. Are you offended by that? How is that “controlling, dark, evil, and sinister?”
First of all, you are the only one who has said ‘evil & sinister’ I certainly didn’t. The rest of what you say is a total & utter distortion of the truth. How could I possibly be offended by Christ’s call to repentance? DO NOT equate Elder Bednar words with the words of our Lord. There is absolutely NO WAY that Bednars words represent the Gospel of Christ, how can you even imagine they do? Read his words again & compare them with Christ’s call to repentance.
Bednar said
“To those who are presently not obeying the law of tithing, I invite you to consider your ways and REPENT:
Christ said
“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Christ is calling people to repent of their sins, to free themselves from the bondage of sin by believing in him, nothing more is required John 3:16 Quite a difference don’t you think?
So what is Bednar doing? Well, he is calling people to repent of one (singular) non- existent sin, a sin ONLY in the Mormon church, a ‘sin’ that if repented of will swell the coffers of the LDS even more. For you to present his words as if he was repeating Christ’s call is grossly deceptive & moreover is close to blasphemy in my opinion. Bednars words have nothing whatsoever to do with Biblical repentance & everything to do with making the church wealthy, you know that & if you don’t then you should.
Jardim,
Thanks for the shout-out.
Can I ask how you were deceived? This is a very common claim from those who leave. Do you take any responsibility for your level of understanding or knowledge about the church? Why are there some members who know all about all of the controversies the critics bring up and other members who know very little? Is a person responsible to study and learn the history of the church, its doctrine, etc.? Does the church encourage its members not to study? Because I have always been encouraged, even heard leaders plead with members, to study for themselves the church and its doctrines and canon. And there is essentially nothing that folks can bring up here that I am not familiar with relating to the church. And I am no different or more special than any other member of the church. Are you arguing that it is the church’s fault that some members know more about the church than others? Can you support that position?
The claims from others here about ward members shunning and acting disgracefully toward those who leave is more than a little hard to believe- at least beyond isolated incidents. I am very familiar with the efforts by leaders and members to extend love and kindness to those who leave or who are active. For goodness sake, it is discussed in the handbook for instructions and in our canon quite powerfully. So, I have a hard time believing that there is any systematic, big-scale culture of shunning and imposing pain upon those who have questions or leave. I do not doubt that it has happened to some people at times. And any reasonable person should understand that people are people, and human behavior is universal. And sometimes people are mean or judgmental. But there really isn’t any reason to conclude that the church in general behaves in this manner. In fact, the opposite is the standard. People so often complain that the church does not leave them alone- home teachers and visiting teachers and bishops and other people continue visiting and trying to talk to people long after those people have lost interest. Now, you guys want us to believe that people are cut off in cold and mean fashion when a person has questions or stops coming to church. Once again- you need to make up your minds. Which is it?
MJP- I guarantee you that I answer a higher percentage of questions thrown at me than the critics do as a group. Get over it.
I have answered questions and tried to explain how grace works as I see it ad nauseum. Your inability to understand or recognize those explanation cannot be placed upon my shoulders entirely. Grace is available to us every second of every day. We are saved entirely by grace. It is functional in our lives always. Any achievement, improvement, or good work on our part involves grace from Christ. Don’t really know how to answer your question beyond that.
And you can repeat my earlier statement if you want. Not sure why you ask. Do you think I would deny it or be embarrassed? In general, of those who leave the church entirely, there are two groups of people. Those who join evangelical churches usually do not have a highly educated background. Those who are highly educated most often become atheists. Of course there are exceptions. But this is most often what happens.
And yes- almost always- those who leave as a result of intellectual concerns about the church almost never are reading the Book of Mormon actively when they leave. Again- why do you bring this up?
I am as free as anybody to offer my opinions and perspective on why people leave and the nature of those experiences. I am intrigued by human nature and human behavior. It is pretty consistent.
My main concerns are the double standards employed by the church’s critics and the biased nature of their arguments. And I simply bring up the lack of objectivity and perspective in this article.
FOF,
Sites like this are like “AA” meetings for people like me who need a place to go and share in a community of people who feel like I do, and have experienced very difficult things in the processes of leaving the church.
You are like a guy showing up to an “AA” meeting, complaining that no one is representing all the great things about people who have never been an alcoholic – it doesn’t even make sense.
Leaving the LDS church is like detoxing and it takes a community of love and support.
FoF:
“Your inability to understand or recognize those explanation cannot be placed upon my shoulders entirely. Grace is available to us every second of every day. We are saved entirely by grace. It is functional in our lives always. Any achievement, improvement, or good work on our part involves grace from Christ. Don’t really know how to answer your question beyond that.”
This does not answer the question, though, which is a very specific question and allows for an answer. Your inability to answer it speaks volumes as to how you view grace. If everything is by grace, then it would not matter if one does not work. However, that is not what your faith prescribes. Failure to perform works in your faith does not result in salvation/exaltation. Since that is the case, then it is fair to inquire about what happens if one does not work. If you wish to not answer this specific question directly, you are answering it by omission, which infers we are correct that it is not all by grace.
You also fail to answer the question about racism and leaders coming to the same conclusion we do. Your failure to answer directly is an answer by omission, inferring there is something to our points.
The problem with your position on exes is that you infer they didn’t try hard enough, and that there is something wrong with them. Your position on who becomes Christian afterwards is offensive and shows pure arrogance on your part.
You are free to hold your opinion on whatever you want, but understand that as you accuse us of being ‘bad’ for holding negative opinions on you, you are just as guilty, if not more so, concerning us and those who leave your faith. If your concern is potential double standards, I expect you to recognize and concede your own.
By the way, I bring up these old questions to demonstrate precisely what you have shown here: an inability or a lack of desire to take these, and other, points head on.
Merrick,
That is interesting. Based upon the statements from Mormon Research Ministry, I think you are confused. MRM states, among other things, on its main webpage:
“Mormonism Research Ministry is a missionary/apologetics organization that was organized in 1979 to propagate the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to critically evaluate the differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity.
Our purpose is to:
-provide factual material in printed and electronic form
-take the gospel directly to the Mormon people by conducting outreaches at Mormon events such as temple openings and pageants
-provide individual counseling with those who are questioning their Mormon faith, as well as help those who need information to share their faith with those in Mormonism.”
So if I read that correctly, this forum is not just for former members to commiserate and exchange stories. From many comments of those who post here, they often make comments with the intent of influencing those who read these pages in search of information about the church.
While I understand that it would be convenient to have a one-sided presentation about a group or entity that you don’t like, that does not guarantee or usually result in anything approaching an objective or balanced perspective.
It is ironic, though, that you and many others do not seem to like being questioned or challenged in your arguments and claims about the church. Isn’t that mindset of conformity without question exactly how you guys describe the intellectual culture within the church? Makes me wonder about the quality of investigation one actually pursued before leaving the church when he or she bristles when their arguments against the church are scrutinized. What does it mean when critics are uncomfortable being scrutinized or having their claims viewed critically?
FoF: OK, challenge us. Really, truly, challenge us. You asked about the Trinity earlier. If I may express my opinion on your questioning on the topic: you proved me right in that you use it as a trap. The Trinity is a very simple yet very difficult concept. A three-in-one God whose very being is but one God. I don’t believe you have any desire to truly understand it, though it is at the center of our faith. You wish to use the difficult nature of God to muddy the waters to make your faith more appealing.
You do this while not taking head on questions concerning grace’s role absent works, among others. You claim to have a great interest in human behavior without recognizing your own behavior: here, seeing a difficult problem elsewhere without addressing your own difficult problems. Christ had an instruction for this: “take out the plank in your own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else’s eye”.
The more you dig in your heals on these things, the more you look arrogant, condescending, and wrong. You point to the mission of the MRM to accuse them of attempting to influence those who come here. YES! All of us have a heart that people might come to Christ! This is true, and while I understand you object to the fact that the aim here is to bring folks out of Mormonism and into Christ, I cannot and will not apologize for that mission.
You also misrepresent Merrick, who is simply saying that often those coming out of Mormonism often have a difficult time, despite your insistence that is not so. We all have heard far too many stories of the difficulties many Mormons have to dismiss them outright as lies or weak, angry people, as you do. When you represent them that way, you only reveal the plank in your own eye.
To all the lurkers who read and never post or almost never post, I did not want to do this, but I guess I must.
FoF is the most dishonest LDS I have ever seen on this blog, For the record I have been on this blog since Day One, and I am the very first person to post on this blog, so I have spoken on many topics with Many Mormons.
Now I will break this into two parts, Part one is a few questions that FoF avoids like the plague, refuses to answer, and some things His Prophets, presidents, apostles and scriptures have said on these subjects showing he is a Hypocrite.
And part two will address all my research and homework, proving he is clueless and a liar to call us critics who dont have a clue or care.
FoF loves calling us critics of the LDS church, Yet the first Prophet Joseph Smith claims My God told him, that my church’s teachings are an abomination in his sight and everything we believe is wrong. So If my God really did say that to JS, then it’s a fair question to ask, Can I or others defend what we believe, look into the claims JS made compare what we believe to what JS taught?
If the answer is yes, then were not critics of the church.
Now Here are some things the LDS church has said and taught.
Read pg 188 of Doct of Salvation vol 1.
now why can the prophet say this, then if I or we do this we get called critics of the church?
Or this
Why is it the apostle said that, and if we do it we get called critics of the church?
Or this
If I am your enemy which I don’t feel I am but if I am it says meet me in public to talk about this stuff. Jesus said love your enemy. why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach. now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the Mormon prophets? if so, then I am.
Now here is something FoF said, and here is the exact topic it came from.
So FoF accused us of just believing anything we are told and were using dishonest quotes.
This was my reply to his quote on that
Now as of yet, FoF has not given us any dishonest quotes and showed us how they were dishonest.
So if you accuse someone of something like that, and cannot back it up, then that makes you a liar, and shows how untrustworthy you really are. So for all you lurkers, look at what FoF says, does not say and decide for your self.
Part 2 next.
FOF… thank you for your first response. It was very Christian of you to just answer questions in a non-angry way. This site is to discuss issues and not gang-up on people or to “challenge” them in a confrontational way. I am a searcher of truth. My god is a god of respect. You only follow Christ if you follow his example. Thank you FOF and all others who are respectful. Let’s all have good discussions!
I would like to share a little of my Mormon experience. I enjoyed being Mormon. I enjoyed the people and the culture. I participated every time I could. I did everything the LDS Church asked of me with very little complaint. I had unanswered doctrinal questions that bothered me. But I was so busy being a happy cookie cutter Mormon that I was distracted from really examining those questions. I had one run in with a Bishop over tithing that was painful but I took my punishment and fell in line, didn’t even complain. I moved out of Utah. I made nonMormon friends. I realized they new Jesus better than I did. It rocked my world. I have “the truth” I thought, it didn’t make sense. I realized later all I had was a set of rules and commandments, they had a relationship. A relationship that can really only be had with understanding the nature of God. Something Mormonism is WAY OFF on. If I was going to proselyte to my already very happy Christian friends and show them I had something better I had to know my stuff. So I studied my butt off. And came to the conclusion (will still studying my Mormon scriptures- remember I’m trying to prove Mormonism right) that I don’t believe it. Oh WoW, how my world view changed. I remember saying, “The world seems so much bigger! God is SOOO much bigger!” I thought I was a happy and content Mormon, but man, after that realization, I was way happier. I remember exclaiming with joy (to my TBM husband), “Mormonism isn’t true!” He didn’t even know I had doubts. because I didn’t, my giving up Mormonism was a complete surprise to me and everyone that new me. This was all grand and exciting, until my ward and family found out. Then it got really ugly. Then the dark side of Mormonism started to show. No one sees it until someone decides to break the mold. I didn’t even had bad thoughts towards Mormonism until I tried to leave. I was in the Primary Presidency at the time. I knew there was going to be a turn over in leadership positions in a month. It was an incredibly small ward. I decided to fulfill my calling for the time being. I never stepped out of line and only preached Christ for that month. People loved it, I got so many compliments. I decided to let the leadership know I was leaving and not to call me again with 2 weeks to go. Oh, how things changed. yes, I agree with the big scarlet letter A. I was told to stay away from the children as my dark spirit was going to corrupt them. The week before they were telling me they enjoyed my talk and lesson. That is only one example of the kinds of reactions you get when you leave. I could probably give a couple dozen more. There is definitely a dark side to Mormonism. It does control and limit your world view. The problem is, you can’t see it until you leave. I didn’t. (I typed this on my phone, sorry if typos)
Orion,
Not to be disrespectful, but you’ve asked some interesting questions. I think you will find us quite respectful when we see that you are not here with an agenda. Call us suspicious if you like, but understand that it is not entirely clear what your intentions are, at least to me. You claim to be someone looking for truth, but you have only asked questions that have a peculiar bend to them.
For instance, you ask whether Christ preached directly to blacks but you have read the New Testament. If you have read the NT, you know the answer, I have to assume. You should also therefore know that Phillip baptized an Ethopian right there on the street and there is no indication this newly baptized man was denied anything.
If you seek truth and have read the New Testament, certain things should be clear. Your merely asking questions, with me knowing you have access to the information that you inquire about, does raise my suspicion.
If I misread you, please accept my apologies, but understand how I see what you are doing here. Bear in mind I am from Missouri, the Show Me State. I am further an attorney, who expects more than just blanket words and mere allegations. You have to make a case and provide evidence. To this point, I struggle to see your genuineness in your search for truth.
I welcome, though, anything to suggest I am wrong. I am man enough to admit it.
Unfortunately FOF, you are the only one here manipulating. What you can’t seem to accept is that there are literally legions of Ex-Mormons who tell the same story, that the Mormon Church is controlling and that its truth claims are false. The difference between them (those that leave) and you (those that stay) is that you accept the claims at face value and do everything in your power to deny the truth, because you LIKE being a Mormon and what it offers you. That is really what it boils down to.
You know, there was once a guy named David Koresh. He was a teacher, gifted in music, charismatic, and his followers were willing to die with him because they also believed that they were experiencing “joy, peace, happiness, hope and love.” What happened to Koresh was not unlike what happened to the Mormons in 1857, when the U.S. sent troops to investigate the Mormons in Utah Territory. There was much violent rhetoric on the part of the Mormons, and they wound up murdering a bunch of innocent immigrants who were unlucky enough to get caught in the middle of all this. But still, that is totally ok with people like FOF, after all, they were simply gentiles and probably apostates and critics.
But Koresh also had his defectors and detractors, who came out and told the truth about him. But that didn’t change the opinion of those that stuck with him, did it? So should we believe the claims of all of those that stuck with him, that Koresh was a prophet and an incarnation of Jesus, simply because they claimed that they experienced “joy, peace, happiness, hope and love?” This is the whole point of his argument folks, and it doesn’t give us any insights at all. (Which FOF is very good at doing).
Only toxic to those like you, who cannot be reasoned with. All the toxicity comes from you. Critics are “unhappy and angry”.
But the reality is, is that there is a whole community of people that are “normal, reasonable and intelligent,” many of them still Mormons who don’t buy into the correlated, faith promoting history that you sell. Many more, have left the church entirely. But to you, anyone who is a critic is stupid, angry and any other epithet that your bigoted brain can muster up against them. It speaks volumes as to who you really are, and how much “joy, peace, happiness, hope and love,” are actually in your life. Who would want to be a part of that world after they have learned the truth? To some, some things matter more than the truth.
Here is FOF doing what he is best at, making up a false argument, so that he can then feel good about how he has destroyed it (in his own mind). This article absolutely does not say that all members of the church are being “controlled” by the “desire to follow the crowd”. What this article is about, is what those that leave the church say THEY experienced. Of course, FOF has no sympathy or understanding for any of them, he can only name call and say all they have to offer are “ancedental, personal TALES”, like they are lying.
But that doesn’t stop FOF from making up all kinds of things that he claims that Sharon has said, so he can set up another one of his own strawmen to argue against. This is what he constantly does folks, and it is just pathetic and self serving.
But this is where FOF thrives, folks, on the kind of articles where he can be vague, opinionated, hostile and condescending. When it comes to articles were he has to present real EVIDENCE to back up his claims, FOF simply disappears. Funny that, isn’t it?
Part 2.
FoF said
Ok, FoF keeps telling us to do our homework, ask questions of LDS and maybe go to Church. But out side of that, even if we do our home work we get called critics of the church?
FoF gets really mad as us for looking into the history of the LDS church, but Jesus and the Bible tells us to beware of false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing, sadly FoF cannot tells us who are wolves or false prophets and he’s sure it’s not his church. But their are so many religions out their and they all disagree and we all cannot be right, so many are wrong and decived and we must look into these things to know the truth.
Now here is a very long list of every book, video, Magazine anything and everything LDS related.
I spent many years sharing with LDS, I started sharing with them in about 1996 till today of this post. So roughly 18 years. If what FoF says, then I am doing this for the shear fun and games of it.
Do you really think I would spend 18 plus years, plus being on this blog since day 1, plus spend thousands of dollars buying books, spending many hours watching videos, going to LDS church services, having MM over my house, going to SLC for two weeks on my own dime, it was my two weeks work paid vacation, plus all the time doing all this, just to annoy LDS and not take it serious as FoF thinks?
He has no clue what he is talking about and honestly cannot sit here and claim we/I dont care after all of this time spent and research. And I am not the only one who has done this, others have also. So here is the list of everything I bought and aquirred over the years. After reading it over, you decide, am I mearly a critics of the church, as FoF would have you believe, or am I really serious about researching the LDS church and sharing with LDS.
For Videos, I own, New Testament Media presentations 7,9,11-21
This video is a teaching video from the Church Educational System it is put out by the LDS church for teaching their classes. it covers these topics. (Justice and mercy, Matthew 21) (To this end was I born Matthew 26-28) (Long promised day Acts 10) (Paul a chosen vessel Acts 21-28) (The doctrine of Grace, Romans) (Faith and Works, Romans) (The body is a temple 1 Cor 3-6) (Godly sorrow leads to repentance 2 Cor 7) (The law of harvest Gal 6) (The whole armour of God Ephesians 6:10-18) The second coming 2 Thess 1; 2:1-3) ( The just shall live by faith, Hebrews 11) ( Helps for understanding the book of revelation, Revelation)
Those are all the topics covered in the Video. They are topics taken from the Bible, but viewed from an LDS point of view.
I also own, Finding faith in Christ and The Restoration both videos are from the LDS Church. Those are the only vidoes from the LDS church I own.
I have seen all the Movies offered by the Church, when you do the temple tour in SLC Utah. And I have rented a few on video put out by the Church. Now on to the books I own.
I own the 1920 Edtion Triple combo, The king James version of the Bible from the LDS Church with the LDS dictionary in back. Pathways to Perfection (Discoures of Thomas S. Monson)
Missionary Pal (Reference Guide for Missionarys and Teachers). The Aritcles of Faith 1977 edtion (By Talmage) Also the 1982 missionary edtion of A of F.
A Marvelous Work and A wonder 1979 edtion by Le Grand Richards.
Gospel Doctrine 1977 edtion by J.F.S.
Jesus the Christ 1976 edtion by Talmage.
A voice of warning by Parlley P. Pratt 1893 13th edtion.
The pocket reference book for missionarys, parents and instructors, by Adrian Parker call Jr.
Essentials in Church History, 1922 by J.F.S
Bible ready references, 1917 by J.F.S. Gospel Doctrine, Sermons and Writings, by J.F.S.4th edtion 1928, and in edtion to that, A guide for the study of GOSPEL DOCTRINE, By J.F.S part 2 1921.
Discourses of Brigham Young 1925 and the entire 27 volume set of the Journal of discourses. my set is 27 volumes not 26, because the 27th one is an entire index for all the 26 volumes.
The 1993-94 and 2003 LDS Church Almanac’s. Achieving a Celestial Marriage, student manuel 1992 edtion.
Teachings of presidents of the Church, BRIGHAM YOUNG 1997 edtion and Jospeh F. Smith1998 edtion.
An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley 1957 edtion. Miracle of forgivness by Spencer Kimball 1969.
Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie 1958 2nd printing and the 1966 19th printing.
The Gospel through the Ages,1945 edtion by Milton R. Hunter.
The Gospel Message by William E. Berrett 1945 edtion.
Answers to Gospel Questions vol 2 by J.F.S 1958 2Nd printing.
Answering Challenging Mormon Question by Michael W. Hickenbotham 3rd printing 1999 ( Replies to 130 Queries by friends and critics of the LDS church
What do Mormons believe? by Rex E. Lee 1992.
Take heed that ye BE NOT DECIVED by Richard I. Winwood1996.
All 4 volumes of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1992.
The life and teachings of Jesus and His Apostles (religion 211-212 course manual) 2nd edtion 1979. Book of Mormon Student manuel 121-121.
New Testament Teacher outline sections 19-36, reviews 1-4 from the LDS Church.
Joseph Smith begins his work vol 1 (Book of Mormon 1830 first edtion, reproduced from uncut sheets) by wilford c. wood. 1963 Joseph Smith begins his work vol 2 The book of commandments. the Doctrine and Covenants, The Lectures on Faith, The 14 Articles of Faith, by Wilford C. Wood 1958.
Pearl of Great Price 1888 edtion. Doctrine and Covenants with the oringal lectures of faith included 1883 edtion. The Mormon Corporate Empire by John Hinerman and Anson Shupe1985 edtion. Michael/Adam by Ogden Kraut 5th printing 1993. No man knows my History (the life of Joseph smith) by Fawn M. Brodie 1954. Celestial Symbols by Allen H. Barber 1999. The Seer by Orsan Pratt. Book of LDS Hymns 1985. Mormon Cooking (Authentic recipes)1985. Understanding “Talmage” (a Contextual Dictionary to supplement the study of Jesus the Christ and A of F by Elder James E.Talmage).
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by J.F.S.1989 paperback edtion. Early Mormonism and the magic world view, by D. Michael Quinn 1998 edtion. Gospel Principles 1997. All 3 volumes of Doctrines of Salvation by J.F.S. 1954 edtion. Joseph Smith’s New Translation Of the Bible 1970 edtion. The Women of Mormondom 4th edtion 1975. Hard bound Edtion of History of the Church 7 volumes 1946 edtion, and the 7 volumes of History of the Church paperback 1978 Edtion. Times and seasons all 6 volumes. All 3 Volumes covering the Entire New Testament, The Doctrinal New Testament Commentary By Bruce R. McConkie1970
SO FOF, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO CLAIM, I DONT CARE AND I DONT DO MY HOMEWORK?
Keep Dreaming.
MJP-
I have explained the roles of faith, grace, works, salvation, etc. numerous times here. I have referred multiple times to the Christian movie, “The Ultimate Gift” in my attempt to explain this. I suggest you go back and find those extensive discussions in past threads. It is there. Go find it. I showed how the model works perfectly with all scriptures, not just a select few passages. I don’t want to distract from yet another thread on this very question which I have answered many times.
I made long comments two threads previous on the topic of race and church policy. There comes a point where nothing productive can result from further posts. And I got to that point. It became a contest of who could post more quotations. And that gets old. I made my point and shared my perspective. Rejection of my position by others does not require that I repeat my position.
I never said you or anybody else was “bad.” I analyze arguments. And I make observations, including about those who leave the church. There is no judgment in the observation that those who have a lower level of education and who leave the church often join evangelical churches while highly educated people who leave become atheists. It is an observation. Did I pass a judgment of good vs. bad? No. I don’t think I am the one who is guilty of such claims. It is very often the critics of the church who claim that I and other LDS will burn in hell for eternity. I don’t claim to have that type of authority or position to make those judgments.
You say I misuse the mission statement from MRM. I was responding to merrick who insisted that I am intruding on a conversation between those who only want to share experiences in leaving the church. My appeal to the mission statement was to show him that he was wrong and my responses and comments are appropriate for this forum.
And I never said there is no difficulty in leaving the church as you suggest. I offered my perspective on many, many efforts by good people to reach out to those who are less active or leaving the church. Again- are we to only consider one side? Are people to believe what is claimed here by the church’s critics as pure truth? I have no reason to adopt such a naive method of weighing evidence and finding truth.
In all honesty, I think that there is a very significant bias among the folks who spend significant time complaining and criticizing the faith of other people. That bias really seems to keep you from seeing anything but the anecdotal stories that you have heard. But there is an entire world out there that offers a completely different and believable perspective.
I don’t think taking a stand and advocating objective standards is “arrogant.” Again, critics should not be so offended by scrutiny of their arguments.
Isn’t it funny that this is what FOF does to every critic of Mormonism here? So how can you even trust yourself, FOF, when you are doing something that you accuse others of doing?
FOF,
You make a valid point about my response – so, although I find a lot of support from this and other sites, they are not to be exclusive to the ex-mormons. However, you were responding to the article that Sharon posted:
1. It is curious that in these types of articles that portray the church and its culture as controlling, dark, manipulative, and evil, the opposite is never, never represented- the hundreds of thousands of people who have joined the church and have experienced joy, peace, happiness, hope, and love. As always, this is simply a result of limiting information and trying to control perceptions.
The article had nothing to do with the general state of happiness or unhappiness within Mormonism- so I don’t see your point. I am sure there are many articles extolling the “joy, peace, happiness, hope, and love,” of being a Mormon – and I won’t be reading any of them complaining that they don’t represent the disaffected people like myself.
FoF,
You said, “It is ironic, though, that you and many others do not seem to like being questioned or challenged in your arguments and claims about the church. … What does it mean when critics are uncomfortable being scrutinized or having their claims viewed critically?”
You assume a lot about how we supporters of MRM really feel, and worded in a way as if critics of Mormonism squirm in discomfort under scrutiny while critics of Christianity stand confident under scrutiny.
You also said, “Makes me wonder about the quality of investigation one actually pursued before leaving the church when he or she bristles when their arguments against the church are scrutinized.”
This coming from a guy who believes that the BoM is an actual history of the Americas. But he doesn’t know this by anything objective—because nothing objective exists in this regard—rather, he knows this by his testimony. If I were going to start a new religion I would shift everyone’s attention to their heart rather than objectivity.
FoF, I assure you that I do not squirm in discomfort to your scrutiny; I laugh at your execution and cry at your spiritual deadness. And I don’t know this because of Jiminy Cricket, let the reader understand.
But not only would I shift everyone’s attention to their hearts, but I would also have them working their way into heaven. Work, work, work. Busy, busy, busy. Do, do, do. A never ending game of thrones of keeping up with the Joneses, everyone trying to out religion each other. I would also have everyone dress exactly the same too. This discourages individualism so that they can focus on the hive mind. I would convince them that without their dear leader they would live poor and miserable wrecks of lives, only barely worth living. Also everyone gets to go to heaven, except for apostates. This would create so much fear, and them constantly looking to their heart and works would create so much despair, that the members would absolutely have to have me to even survive. Or so I would make it seem. Sound familiar, investigator?
*By “laugh at your execution” I meant form, technique, not cessation of life, just to be clear.
Also, think about this. If you could convince people to look to their hearts for confirmation of the truthfulness of anything, what could you NOT convince them to believe? I’ll ask this again, What could you NOT convince them to believe? Alien empires in Africa? Look to your heart! Time traveling Portugese doctors from the 31st century? Look to your heart! Pre-Christian Christian Israelite empires in the Americas? You get the picture.
Dear Faithoffathers,
I’d like to add with others here that I’m happy you are part of this forum. Reading your posts, I would like to comment on a couple items.
1. You wrote of the support groups described in the Newsweek article, and how they “are generally not very effective in attracting normal, reasonable, and intelligent people.” That got me to thinking. How would I describe a gathering of people who had recently left the LDS religion? Would I think of them as normal, reasonable people? To be honest, that is not the image that comes to my mind. I would imagine them as very broken, upset, and possibly not too balanced. You describe them as “very unhappy and angry people.” Sadly, this probably describes a fair number of them.
2. As a Christian, I was interested in the exchange you had with others here about the subjects of grace and forgiveness. This evening I read a devotional by Charles Spurgeon, I’d like to share a portion of it, as it was very beautiful to me:
I have two questions for you, Faithoffathers. (I am not asking you to respond to them in writing, as I do not wish to put you on the spot, or feel you need to perform in some way.) I ask instead that you answer them in your mind, possibly first pondering them for a time. 1) As you read this devotional, was it describing what you have in your life? 2) If it did not, do you wish this were otherwise?
God bless you, Faithoffathers, and all at this forum.
Jaxi,
Excellent testimony. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Now according to arrogant true believing Mormons, you must be bitter, ignorant and hostile. They just can’t imagine someone leaving the one true church. These arrogant TBMs have to assign all sorts of negatives to folks like you because it reinforces what they want to believe about those who leave. It’s an emotional coping mechanism because leaving what they believe is the one true church can’t happen unless the person is some sort of deprived, deceived reprobate.
Our buddy FOF is fighting way too hard here. He’s like an alcoholic who makes all sorts of excuses for his addiction instead of facing the truth.
Hey FOF,
If you don’t mind my asking what would you personally have to give up if you came to believe that traditional Christianity was correct and Mormonism was a false religion?
Would there be any social repercussions for joining the low educated rabble and biased unthinking LDS haters? or would you expect your Mormon friends and family to treat you the same as they do now if you joined the very folks who were hoping and praying to see their church cease to exist.
thanks in advance
peace
FoF bizarrely said: So, in essence, you are saying that because you know a person who had serious struggles leaving the church, I should acquiesce, as all LDS should, to the claims and one-sided representation of our church and community? Wow. That is amazing. No real response to my points of only providing one side of the picture. Just- “how dare you question us and our pain.” (By the way, I very much doubt the third hand perspective you are providing here- while not impossible, I think it very unlikely).
If that’s what you get out of my comment – that you should “acquiesce” to anything – well, I can’t really help you, because that’s so hyperbolic as to be utterly disconnected from the actual content of my post.
By all means, publicize the positive experiences that you and others have had within the confines of Mormon culture. Write articles about it, tell others about it. But don’t minimize the experiences of those who found Mormon communities to be populated by fairweather friends whose professions of love and kindness were wholly contingent on some measure of lockstep. I don’t base my comments merely on the experiences of one person – far from it, I know this to be an exceptionally common experience for those who leave the Mormon Church. But even if all I had were the widespread experiences of that one person – and your “very much doubting” my “third-hand” relaying of the information is, with all the respect due here, of considerably less value than a box of finely aged rodent carcasses, in this case – that would still establish that at least one local Mormon community reacted with intense, vicious hostility to a person trying to peacefully leave Mormonism for something she considered better. And that hostility, even if it were local and isolated, should fill you with fury and sorrow. If it doesn’t – and clearly, it doesn’t – then I fear for the state of your heart and for your future state. Repent of your hard-heartedness.
I don’t understand how any one can take fof seriously, just using his own quotes expouses him as a liar, and someone who slanders people and makes things up as they go.
The bible is clear about people like this, they are false teachers. Jude speaks perfectly about the type of person fof is and the punishment that awaits people like him.
Hey Rick B
I agree nut false teachers should not be ignored they should be refuted with gentleness
quote:
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(2 Timothy 2:24-26)
end quote:
peace
5thMM
“……..the low educated rabble and biased unthinking LDS haters”
That’s the stuff I use to come up with. I’m losing my touch! That’s so good and it clearly defines what our FOF thinks of those who have left the LDS church and those of us who refuse to believe the glorious restored gospel.
A perfect example of an “arrogant true believing Mormon”.
It’s not that unusual for folks who leave the LDS church to be shunned by friends and family and harassed by the LDS church. In fact it’s standard operating procedure. You don’t leave the LDS church without serious repercussions from those you thought to be your friends.
Here’s a couple of short videos (four and six minutes) that I think are interesting. Pretty soft over-all but something that a guy like FOF wouldn’t be able to handle. There has to be something wrong with these people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBwHNe6x-X0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSMgIfJKDck
Wait a minute!
Something came to me this morning as I was eating my Shredded Wheat. I think one of the reasons that FOF has such a problem with former Mormons is because, if they wanted to, they could claim victim status as a result of how they are being “persecuted” by current members and the LDS church.
We know that victimhood and persecution is only allowed for Mormons themselves. It’s their favorite thing. In fact we who participate on this blog are often accused of being @nti-Mormon and of persecuting God’s one true church. Maybe FOF and his ilk can somehow manage to flip this and say that current members are victims being persecuted by former Mormons.
FOF and his brethren rather enjoy sticking out their lower lip and whining about how terrible everyone is to their church and members.
The reality is that leaving the one true church is just not acceptable to those who cling to the myth like it were life itself.
One of the things that FoF is missing is that many exmormons that leave had good experiences as a Mormon. It wasn’t until they had doubts about truth claims or decided to leave that they got ugly reactions from Mormon friends, family, and leaders. It was when their jobs got threatened or parents disowned them. Since all my siblings left the LDS Church my mom feels like a failure. This thought creates major sadness. She believes her eternal family is broken and none of her kids will be with God. This is heartbreaking for a Mormon parent. I have to watch the pain that she is in. Pain that is caused by her belief system. I lost friends. My Mormon family has lost respect for me and in some ways fears me. This all because of their belief system. This is what many Mormons face when they try to leave. So I think it naturally would cause a great deal of exmormons to be bitter and those will be the loudest in online communities, showing a disproportionate number to those that quietly move on and carry their pain silently. I can name about a dozen people I know personally that would qualify as such, people that left not because of bad experience but because of disbelief Mormon truth claims and either quietly move on or are upset about what Mormonism takes from them upon exit. FoF shows a very narrowminded view point, very black and white. As if its all happy Mormons and angry exmormons. Unfortunately Mormonism creates this narrowmindedness because of Moronis promise. Mormons believe its true and so if people follow the promise God will of course confirm it. So they either didn’t do it right or they got confirmation and rejected it because of sin or offense. If FoF actually cared about relating to others and understanding their viewpoint his eyes might be opened. But he is locked into the Mormon worldview which essentially limits ones views of those that live outside the Mormon context.
Another thing that I’m not sure FoF realizes is that many LDS people don’t believe in Mormonism and stay. They attend his very ward. They attend every Sunday. Some are bishops and clerks and other callings. There is a website of just clerks that get together and chat. They can’t leave because what it will do to their families. I know several personally that have told me that they stay because of their job, because it will ruin their marriage, because leaving might kill their parents. Seriously, that last one is no joke. I know people that have parents that are in poor health and they think that the emotional trauma that it will cause to their parents if they leave might actually kill them. I know someone who wants to leave, got in such a huge fight with their parents about it, that they said they would rather force themselves to believe than deal with family. (They teach for the LDS Church) I said the same thing when I came out to my parents, that I would rather stay Mormon than have to emotionally deal with that. Leaving is tough, people need support. When I left I was all alone. The only thing that kept me going what that I knew what I was doing was right and that God was with me. Like falcon said, Mormons have this thing where they only think they are being persecuted. They don’t see themselves as the persecutors. I would say the majority of those that leave the LDS Church feel persecuted to some degree.
Fifth,
I never said ignore anyone, fof knows I don’t ignore him. I just use his words against him. I just asked, how can anyone take him seriously?
In this post I quoted him from a former topic saying the quotes we use are dishontest quotes. Well sadly fof has a serious problem since all our quotes are from him and other lds and lds prophets.
So either he admites him and lds prophets don’t have a clue, and they themselves are dishonest, or he just lied and slandered us, since I did ask, name the quotes that we used that are dishonest. Of course he ran away from that issue, proving he is dishonest.
Then he claims we have no clue and simply go after lds for fun. So of couse I pointed out I have spent 18 years of my life studying Mormonism and listed my entire lds library. Does that sound like I don’t take this serious and simply do it to be a pain to mormons? Yet again no answer from fof.
The article above states that –
This is never taught. We teach that Heavenly Father and Jesus know each of us individually and loves each of us individually. There is nothing in our teaching that states that we are not known by them.
If this is discussing the way the church is organised then why are there so many complaints about people having difficulties getting their names removed from the records and being visited years after they thought they had left? Why do we have our Home/Visiting Teaching programmes which are there to look after the members (when it works properly)? There are many other things I can point out that show we are not “nameless soldiers”.
I can understand why people have this fear, but that is something they put on themselves – not the church or its members. Besides, there are the legalities of unlawful/unfair dismissal which is made for conditions like this.
This happens to anyone who leaves a group. When I left one of my work places and started a new job I had to start with new friends and in one of the work places a new support network because the boss was a tyrant. Because I worked on the opposite side of town I never really saw any of my old work colleagues from my old work and they didn’t see me. Why? Because we were busy with work and family.
But to make it onto a level for this topic – many people who join the LDS are also in this category – they need to find new peers within their new community. They have to deal with old friends not finding time for them anymore as they go their separate ways.
Johnsepistle said about this –
I am not minimising their experience, I am agreeing that it does happen. But I disagree with what I have bolded in his comment. This happens in any situation where the community has a high percentage of that group. I served my mission in Finland where they have a state religion – Lutheran. The ‘group mind’ was that if you did not belong to the Lutheran or Catholic church you were to be ostracised by family and friends. I know many people who joined not only the LDS church but the JW, SDA and even Pentecostal (among other churches) who were divorced, had their parents or children or siblings turn their backs on them and had their friends stop all communication with them. It is not unique to nor is it ‘exceptionally common’ to the LDS church as Johnsepistle comments.
Just to let you know, I have 2 very good friends, one was my best man and he couldn’t enter the temple for my wedding, who have had their names removed from the church but I still keep in contact with them as much as possible, and so do their other LDS friends. The only reason I say as much as possible is that they live on the other side of the country. When they come over to visit family I also visit with them, and so do their other LDS friends.
My sister is not a member any more but we still treat her and her partner normally.
But that is what I have seen here in Australia, whereas I have heard some sad stories from the Utah area – which is why I stated it happen in communities where there is a high percentage of people that belong to that group.
RickB,
I have studied Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geology, Chemical Engineering and Biology at university, including getting my PhD in Biochemistry. I have read and own many books on all of these subjects. I have done my ‘homework’, as you say you have. Does that mean I am an authority on these subjects? Just because I have read and/or own these books doesn’t mean I understand them. I agree you have done your homework, but with some of the quotes and things you say about them I really don’t think you understand them as much as you believe you do, and it definitely does not make you an authority on the subject. Just like I am not an authority on the LDS church and its doctrine either, but I am studying and learning more all the time.
Ralph,
First off, I nevet said I was an authority on anything.
Second off all, its dishonest to act as if people like me and staff at mrm, former lds and others who do our research act as if we never have.
Lastly, I feel people like you are dishonest because you act as if we are unloving for sharing as the bible tells us to do, yet you knowingly do not say anything to people like fof who are busted for lying and slander.
You won’t correct lds who are wrong, just non lds. And yes I have corrected and been corrected by fellow brothers on this board, as the bible says, but lds give a free pass to each other, that does not help your cause.
Ralph,
You wrote:
“Just like I am not an authority on the LDS church and its doctrine either, but I am studying and learning more all the time.”
That’s a very interesting statement and I wonder what it means. I don’t want to read between the lines here so if you don’t mind I’d appreciate it if you would expand more on the comment. I’d be interested in what aspect of Mormon doctrine you are studying and what your sources are. Are you delving into “Mormon Doctrine” by Bruce McConkie?
I’m wondering where this will all take you Ralph? There are some who study Mormon doctrine and leave the LDS church. There are some who study Mormon doctrine and end-up becoming fundamentalist Mormons of some sort. This is because they conclude that the LDS church has gone into apostasy as it has rejected such fundamental Mormon doctrines as plural marriage, ban on blacks in the priesthood and Adam-God just to name a few (doctrines).
Then there are some like the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot sects who totally reject the Mormon doctrines that the LDS and/or the FLDS embrace. The Temple Lot group for example is a sect that was formed when Joseph Smith reorganized his church, got rid of the Book of Commandments, and developed the D&C. Several of the sects reject the BoA.
So when you study Mormon doctrine, what exactly will you study. Will you give these other groups your attention or will you see them as some form of apostates?
Studying Mormon doctrine may take you places you really don’t want to go. It will be interesting as to how much rationalizing you’ll have to do to maintain your equilibrium because if you’re honest with yourself, you’re going to be getting very uncomfortable.
From Sharon’s Piece:
‘“Some former adherents act like soldiers for an ex-Mormon liberation army, seeking out the doubters within the church, extracting them, and bringing them to more tolerant territory. They plaster their calling cards all over…”’
After some 10 years out of Mormonism (six and a half officially), my experience has been that doubters within the church seek me out. They have doubts. They either know or find out I was LDS. They come and talk to me. There it is.
RickB- What do you guys spend your time doing here? You criticize the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members. What do you call people who critique new movies? Movie critics. You guys are critics of the church. That is not a value judgment and does not indicate whether those criticisms are true or false. It is just what you guys do. I have no desire to be politically correct and use some other word to gloss over what are the goals of this site and those who post here. They have already done that in calling this a “ministry.”
I don’t “get mad” at people looking at our history. I recognize the bias and one-sided nature of how that history is represented and the self-righteous and judgmental position of those who provide that biased perspective.
Buying a lot of books and spending a lot of time doing something does not ensure one’s motives are altruistic or good. In my opinion, it is very unhealthy and says a lot that a person does spend so much time and energy criticizing other people or another religion. Most people recognize this reality. Obsession is not always a good thing. In fact, it is usually not a good thing. And it in no way suggests an objective or proper perspective on the thing that is the focus of the obsession.
Mistaken testimony- my comments were directed at critics in general, and I said nothing about critics of Christianity. There is hypocrisy when a person who spends his time criticizing other people feels incensed and offended when others scrutinize and criticize his arguments. And that is what I often see here. Those here who spend their time criticizing the LDS religion get very bent out of shape when their arguments are analyzed and criticized. It is constant and predictable.
Brian- my reference was to “ministries” like MRM and other groups that spend their time criticizing the church. It is these groups, some of whom include former LDS, that I said are not very effective, in part a result of their tone. I did not make this reference to all those who leave the church. Understand that distinction.
And thank you for sharing the devotional from Spurgeon. I really like him and think he understood the atonement pretty well, including what happened in the Garden of Gethsemene. To answer your question- yes. I relate very well to the feelings expressed in that devotional and feel the very same way.
Falcon- you and others are either not understanding my words or are misrepresenting them in part. I did not claim that all people who leave the church are angry or unhappy. I said that those who leave the church and spend significant amounts of time publicly criticizing the church are angry. Not all people who leave the church do that. You really need to think more critically when you read the words of other people.
And is everybody who disagrees with you arrogant?
Fifth monarchy man- I do not doubt that those who leave the church and who come from active LDS families (as well as those who don’t) suffer pain in leaving. I made sacrifices myself to join the church. Your appeal to emotion and victimhood does not really change what I am arguing. Yes- if I left the church, it would require me to endure discomfort of sorts. But there is another side of the coin. I wouldn’t be paying tithing. I wouldn’t do home teaching. I would not spend many hours each week in my calling. I would not be spending time and energy doing a lot of things that are not easy that I currently strive to do. So please- remember balance, objectivity, and the need to see both sides of any given claim or argument.
Johnsepistle- do you think it is important to provide not only accuracy but perspective and balance in criticism? Look at the article above and every other article on this website. If a person who knew nothing about the church read these articles, they would get an extremely skewed and incorrect perspective of the church and its members. Does that matter to you? These articles paint a gross caricature of the church. It says something that you don’t think creating this type of picture about other people is problematic. As I said, I understand that these types of things can happen- people (including LDS) being mean and cruel. But to represent this type of behavior as the standard LDS behavior and church behavior is dishonest and manipulative.
Jaxi- sorry for your experiences that were bad. But understand what I tried to explain to falcon. I am not referring to all people who leave the church. I am talking about those who leave the church and spend the rest of their lives complaining about it. It is a convenient way to try to make me appear mean and cold, but it is dishonest to misrepresent my words in this way. There is plenty of close-mindedness here among the critics who absolutely cannot have their perceptions and opinions challenged. I encourage you to think more critically when you read the words of other people. And by “critically” I don’t mean criticizing the author of the words, but focus on understanding the precise meaning of those words.
RickB- (again). I don’t remember ever saying you guys “go after” LDS “for fun.” Please don’t put words in my mouth. The dishonest quoting I most often refer to is the partial quotation of leaders of the church, our canon, and other sources and assigning a meaning that is not correct or incomplete. Grindael is very consistent in doing this. It is the cutting and pasting of things and taking them out of context to create a false and manipulative perspective of the author that bothers me.
You have an interesting set of criteria for determining who is “dishonest.” And by the way, as I understand it, each person has a limit of 6 posts per day here. So, I cannot respond in a given day to posts that are directed at me after my 6th post. That does not mean I am “running away.”
From yesterday: my 7th (unknowingly) post:
FoF,
I know, and you have never addressed the point on works absent grace. You have spent a lot of time talking about the importantance of grace and how life is better because of grace, as grace is behind every good thing we do. But my question remains unanswered. What happens if we are full of grace but don’t do what the LDS program tells us to do?
Sometimes, FoF, and you seem smart enough to know this: you don’t have to specifically use a word to infer its use in a particular situation. You’ll also notice I used quotations around the word bad to set apart its use. Its clear you think we are all bad people who do nothing but bash on your religion. Several times you have stated that true followers of Christ would love everyone and not bash other faiths.
However, if you look to the example of Christ himself, he did nothing but bash the Jews for their wrongheadedness. Christ was not a meek or ignorant person. He was actually quite in-your-face. You can’t use your tactic to defend yourself, because Christ himself was quite aggressive in attacking those who were wrong.
I know these discussions become quite personal, but I believe all of us are here out of a general concern for Christ and for the truth, and for other peoples’ souls. This does give us bias, but don’t ignore the bias in your own position. You’ve continualy done exactly that, though. This is why we state you are dishonest or hypocritical. This is being completely honest here.
Facts are facts, and things are the way they are. You continally avoid the direct question of what happens to grace if you don’t work. You answer by saying grace is behind everything good happens because of grace, and we are all resurected because of grace. But you leave out the part that matters: will one be exalted with grace alone?
This it what it is, and your avoidance of that question is becoming a fact, not just a trend or interpretation. Unless you can answer it directly and head on, the point will be proven in short order. You have a direct claim against you, and it is your burden to answer it. Failure to do so will result in default against you.
Fof, I love how you try to cover up lies and running away by crying, I have 6 posts a day.
If you going to say were using dishonest quotes then u need to back it up. If you choose not to for any reason, then your the dishonest one.
Also just mentioning it in the way you did is not really answering my question.
You never provided even one quote that you claim to be dishonest and saying, here is what u guys left off and here is how you were wrong.
So as it stands, your the most dishonest lds member I have ever spoken with.
MJP-
You ask, “What happens if we are full of grace but don’t do what the LDS program tells us to do?”
I am really not sure exactly what you are asking. Who is “we?” What is being “full of grace?” And does “the LDS program” mean the principles and ordinances of the gospel?
So please be a little more precise and specific so I can try to answer your question.
Further, you state, “Sometimes, FoF, and you seem smart enough to know this: you don’t have to specifically use a word to infer its use in a particular situation.” I have found that I need to be as explicit and precise as I can in the space I have here. I recognize that that entails some redundancy, but misunderstanding and misrepresentation is bread and butter here, and I am trying to minimize its occurrence.
It should not be “clear” that I think everybody here is bad. I think it is unhealthy, and that that part of your personality that drives you to spend your time bemoaning another religion is unhealthy. I have things about me that are unhealthy. I think this obsession is toxic to people- most deeply in those who spend their time focusing on the shortcoming of others and other religions. Yes- I believe a disciple of Christ is filled with love (that doesn’t make him stupid or ignorant), and is not driven to spend their time going after other religions. It is simply human nature. And that is my opinion and experience.
As far as words and being precise and specific- let’s take your sentence above. You say of Christ, “he did nothing but bash the Jews for their wrongheadedness. Christ was not a meek or ignorant person.” I completely disagree with you here. Yes- Christ did a lot of other things besides “bash” the Jews. I understand that that is not really what you were trying to say. But this type of criticism is what is so often employed here in criticizing the words of others. Christ served endlessly. He healed the sick. He taught. He lifted, blessed, and gave hope to countless people. And He was absolutely meek. In fact, He said, “for I am meek and lowly in heart.” My point is that it is easy to take a person’s words and twist them and make them appear to be dishonest, or dumb, or uninformed.
Who did Christ “attack?” Those who were hypocrits and self-righteous. He did not go around ripping people for merely “being wrong.” The two things are very different. He was very critical of those who employed double standards- those who had the mentality of “do what I say and not what I do.” In fact, He taught the people to do as the Pharisees say, but not as they do.
I have bias. Yes. I do. Everybody does. And that is why it is so absolutely important to look at both sides of every claim, story, perception, or criticism. And the reason for my being here is I do not feel that this is done here, and the faith and church that I love is portrayed in a hateful and extremely biased manner.
You keep insisting that I am dishonest, hypocritical, and others have added arrogant. Please show how I am any of these things. I do not deny this. I simply ask that you support these accusations with precise language and reasoning. Being mad that I disagree with you and think you guys are wrong in your methods and conclusions does not warrant claims that I am dishonest or hypocritical. Know what those words mean and back up your claims.
Your ongoing question on grace- without works, a person cannot be saved or cleansed from sin or exalted. Period. But those works do not do the saving. Forgiveness and salvation are conditional. Those conditions are our faith in Christ, repentance of our sins, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit, and enduring to the end. Exaltation requires making and keeping additional covenants with God in the temple. Works are inherent in faith and belief. If a person does not follow and obey and do good works, he has no basis on which to claim he believes or has faith. Again, our works do not save us. But we are expected to do those works to increase our faith in Christ, who does 100% of the saving. I have answered this question so many times I have lost count. I have no doubt that you will ask this same question in the next thread.
RickB- go back and look at the times I have claimed that the articles posted and the posts from critics are misrepresentative, dishonest, or manipulative. I have explained the reasoning for my claim almost every time, including in this thread.
Your chest beating and insisting that I am dishonest if I don’t meet your demands really gets old. In my last post alone I responded to 7 different people and 9 different posts. I am “crying” about having only 6 posts a day? No. I am trying to explain a simple fact to people that do not come across as very rational or reasonable and insist I am not meeting their needs.
FoF,
There’s a quote from a song by “They Might Be Giants” that says: “I will never see myself in the mirror with my eyes closed.”
This all the more I am finding appropriate to you and your position. You love to bring up our supposed hypocrasy and how we have nothing better to do than to criticize your religion. You also don’t seem to get that while criticizing another’s faith is a difficult thing for the critized to deal with, its also a normal and appropriate activity for those that believe in truth and wish to share that truth.
Instead of getting uppity when we criticize your faith, understand where we come from. This is where you fail to see your own self and how you look. Your eyes are closed when you look into the mirror.
I know you hold your faith dear, but do you think all of us are carefree about ours? Do you think we are not passionate about Jesus and our walk with Him? We hold our faith dear, too. Do not mistake that or underestimate our passion for Christ.
There’s another saying you are likely familiar with: “There are two sides to every coin.” You have shown no inclination to understand anything about our faith or where we come from. Nothing. Zero. All you have done is accuse us of having nothing better to do than criticize your faith and for being one sided. You ignore your own singular and focused bias and fail to realize that we are not just criticizing your faith, we are doing what we are called to do: standing up for Jesus.
I am sure LDS members would love for us ex members to just fade quietly into the background. I have heard the old, ” They can leave the church but they just can’t leave the church alone” many times.
Does the church leave us alone? I stated in my resignation letter that I wanted my name and records to be removed IMMEDIATELY and that I wanted NO CONTACT from anyone in the LDS church after my letter was received at church headquarters, just send me a confirmation letter stating it had been done. Did they listen? Nope. I was sent a letter from Mr. Dodge stating that:
” The church considers such a request to be an ecclesiastical matter that must be handled by local priesthood leaders before being processed by church employees. Therefore, your letter and copy of this reply are being sent to ( stake president ) he will have (bishop) CONTACT you concerning the fulfillment of your request.”
Then I received call after call from the ward clerk (thank goodness for caller ID) then a call from a number I didn’t recognized and it was the bishop calling from his work number! He proceeded to interview me over the phone. I flat out told him I had been studying for a few years and I didn’t believe a word of Mormonism, the church wasn’t what it claimed to be and I no longer wanted to be a member. He then had the gall to ask me if I was leaving because someone offended me. Really? I had just told him I had been studying! I guess no one can possibly leave unless they have been offended by someone.
A week to the day after receiving my confirmation letter that I was no longer a member, I had missionaries knocking on my door. They have been arriving every few months like clockwork.
What part of NO CONTACT does the LDS church not understand?
Once my letter had been received by church headquarters, legally I was no longer a member. I was not subject to their rules or regulations and I really didn’t care what kind of a matter the church thought it was. They won’t process your request immediately, it takes months. Talk about arrogance. I felt like I was being held hostage. I found out later by another woman who had left the church that she involved an attorney and her name was removed immediately. I guess I should have done that.
FOF,
“There are far more people who join the church every year than leave the church.”
You know this how? Can you give us an official numbers count by your church leaders? Have they printed out the actual numbers for you to see for yourself? Can you post your proof of this? Thanks.