Follow the Prophet?

It wasn’t long ago when an advertising campaign for basketball superstar Michael Jordan emphasized just three words: “Be like Mike.” The slogan became very popular and sold plenty of shoes.

PresMonsonatURedactedThis came to my mind as I read an article titled “Follow the Prophet” in the April 2014 Ensign magazine.  Written by Seventy William R. Walker, the piece puts the LDS president on a pedestal. If the reader wanted to predict what the article would be about, the pull quote on page 39 says it all: “As we follow President Monson and try to be more like him, we will inevitably succeed in being more faithful disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Somewhere I was halfway expecting another pull quote that would have read, “Be like Tom.”

Consider the points made by Walker to succeed in “following the prophet’s example”:

  • Be positive and happy
  • Be kind and loving toward children
  • Follow the promptings of the Spirit
  • Love the temple
  • Be kind, considerate, and loving

Toward the end of the article, Walker writes on page 41, “President Monson has taught us the way to live our lives with his wonderful and inspiring messages at general conference. He has taught us how to be followers of Jesus Christ by his remarkable and wonderful personal example. . . . As we follow him and try to be more like him, we will inevitably succeed in being more faithful disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Someone may predict that I am about to insist that it is wrong to imitate other people. That’s not my point. If a person’s walk is worthy to be imitated, then by all means it should be! For the Christian, this might be a pastor, Billy Graham, or another spiritual giant. Even Paul urged the Corinthians to “imitate me” (1 Cor. 4:16) and “follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1). In Philippians 4:17, the apostle wrote, “Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.”

Was Paul perfect? By no means! He was a man who was transparent and even admitted to struggling with sin! (Rom. 7:7-25) Flip through the book of Acts and study how Paul handled certain situations, including a serious conflict with Peter. Read 2 Corinthians 11 and better understand the mindset of the man who told us to imitate him. There is much open transparency when it comes to the life of Paul.

Contrast Paul’s example with President Monson. Besides photo ops and generic biannual speeches at the general conferences, how much transparency is provided? Of course, there are plenty of PR pieces to make Monson look saint-like (example). And there is a 2010 biography (To the Rescue written by Heidi S. Swinton, a faithful member of the LDS Church), though the chapter titles (including “He went about doing good” and “The consummate counselor”) show the demeanor of this book. We must wonder if there really is enough information provided to give us an accurate assessment of his character. Could the image we are given be nothing more than a caricature?

Someone might say that we can learn more about the real Monson from General Conference messages that he’s given over the years. I have read or listened to many Monson addresses, and I just can’t remember a time when I heard him refer to situations where his current life or example was less than stellar. Oh, we certainly get some tales, including one that has been dubbed the “fire story.” It details a time when Monson and a friend got into trouble when they played with matches and started a fire. While this certainly was an admission of wrongdoing, I believe the narrative is presented in a way that appears innocent and cute, even if the moral of the story was to obey. (See the April 2013 account here.)

Except for certain long-ago stories like this, very little is shared at conference that provides an accurate picture of the 21st century Monson. The impression that is given—purposeful, I believe—reflects a mortal who appears to have a lock on sainthood.

We are left to wonder, does Mormonism’s top leader struggle with evil, lustful thoughts? Does he have any temptation with gossip or backbiting talk? Has he disagreed with one of his children and spoken in an angry tone? In other words—and I want to know—is Thomas S. Monson human? After reading Walker’s article, the top LDS leader appears to be a demigod who apparently walks on water.

MonsonMemoirsIn a 1985 book titled On the Lord’s Errand: Memoirs of Thomas S. Monson that has long since been out of print, Monson reminisced about a time when he was given advice from a senior apostle. He wrote on page 184:

“In about 1956 we recognized that our neighborhood was dete­riorating. We observed this one Halloween by the nature of the people who came in the guise of ‘Trick or Treat.’ The minority elements were moving into the area where we lived, and many of the old-time families had long since moved away. Seeking coun­sel, I visited with Mark E. Peterson, who for many years had been the General Manager of the Deseret News. O. Preston Robinson, my former professor of marketing at the University of Utah, had suc­ceeded Brother Petersen as the General Manager at the News. As I mentioned to Mark my dilemma, wondering if it would be unfair for me to move, he said simply, ‘Your obligation to that area is concluded. Why don’t you build a house in my ward?’”

By telling the story, Monson doesn’t appear to have any remorse referring to human beings as “the minority element.” He doesn’t seem to feel bad that he took Petersen’s advice to move away from these “elements.” Maybe this is why the story has never made it into a conference address. At the same time, I wonder, should we consider this as an example of how we ought to “follow the prophet”?

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57 Responses to Follow the Prophet?

  1. Rick B says:

    The article says

    Consider the points made by Walker to succeed in “following the prophet’s example”:

    Be positive and happy
    Be kind and loving toward children
    Follow the promptings of the Spirit
    Love the temple
    Be kind, considerate, and loving

    They forgot to add things like,
    Lie for the Lord

    Shun people if they dont agree with you

    Do as I say, not as I do

    Deny clear LDS doctrine

    Claim former Doctrine is really opinon or folklore

    We all can add more.

  2. Rick B says:

    The article says

    President Monson has taught us the way to live our lives with his wonderful and inspiring messages at general conference. He has taught us how to be followers of Jesus Christ by his remarkable and wonderful personal example

    Really, Monson could not pick Jesus out of a line up of One, and His real father is the Devil, just as Jesus said.

  3. MJP says:

    This article leaves me feeling like the LDS simply espouse a message of happiness and positive thinking. If all you have to do to succeed in following the prophet’s example is:

    Be positive and happy
    Be kind and loving toward children
    Follow the promptings of the Spirit
    Love the temple
    Be kind, considerate, and loving

    then there’s not much meat there. Its like watching the SNL skit where you are good enough, strong enough, and people like you!

  4. falcon says:

    The LDS folks have bought the idea that the prophet is really a super duper hyper-spiritual guy. It sort of reminds me of Peter Sellers in a movie called “Being There” which I’m probably the only one who remembers. Everyone kept projecting all these qualities and depth of knowledge and understanding to “Chauncey”.
    Here’s the trailer.

  5. Mike R says:

    I think that this is another example of why we don’t simply don’t need a Mormon prophet .
    We have other individuals to follow who live just as moral of a lifestyle as Pres. Monson ,
    and who serve as great examples in that manner . My Pastor would qualify , as would a great
    many others . It’s that simple . But that leads to another very important question , namely,
    is living a moral lifestyle that is consistent with what we find in the New Testament the best
    way how to evaluate who is a true ” faithful follower of Jesus ” and especially whether a man
    claiming to be a prophet today has in fact been sent/directed by Jesus to teach the truth about
    Him and His salvation message like His original apostles did ?

    It’s been my experience that Mormons don’t seem to know that false prophets are not always
    immoral individuals . Some can be , and are, very polite, well dressed , “clean living ” persons .
    Concentrating on their demeanor , appearance, and examples of being kind and polite can
    cause one to ignore the need to step back and examine what they have taught as gospel truth
    is the appealing trap which Mormons fall into . Non Mormons likewise can stumble at this
    as well in following ( trusting ) their religious leaders teachings to be truthful because these
    leaders are well liked and moral individuals without testing their doctrines —1Jn 4:1 . By not
    properly testing many sincere people have been fooled into embracing a counterfeit gospel and
    the Mormon people are a classic example of why this counsel by the apostle John is so vital to
    heed today —- Gal 1:8 .
    My heart breaks to see these decent people detoured from the truth because of their trust in
    following their latter days prophets because they see them as nice individual therefore they
    must have been sent by God . But Joseph Smith , Brigham Young ….. Thomas Monson have
    not been sent by God . There are other examples to follow in how to be ” faithful disciples ”
    of Jesus as respects a moral lifestyle , but especially there are better examples of prophets or
    apostles to follow (trust ) in order to know the truth about God and how to receive eternal life ,
    these are found in the Bible .

    Mormonism is not the answer , and Thomas Monson , like Brigham Young , have not been sent
    by Jesus to leave His church .

  6. falcon says:

    I was watching “Heart of the Matter” and some real into it TBM calls in and says something like this to Shawn. “If you could only look into Thomas Monson’s eyes you could see…………………..(blah, blah, blah)”. The guy had a real genuine man-crush on the “prophet”. Talk about total brain washing.

    How many people would say the same thing about people claiming to be prophets just in my life time? I can give a couple of names without even trying; David Koresh, Jim Jones and Charles Manson.
    I’m a big fan of the Beatles and have read where people would try to get to them because they thought they had this special mystical power. Their were women totally obsessed with Elvis. I just watched an interview Ed Bradley did with Bob Dylan some years back. Dylan talks about how people would trek to his farm in upstate New York and want to talk to him about everything from philosophy to organic gardening.
    These people have a need and they project it into these folks.

    But hold on. Not only do these LDS people have a crush on Monson but they are all starry-eyed about the LDS church, the BoM and Joseph Smith. There are a lot of emotional needy people in the world and with Mormons they just attach their need to a false religion with a false prophet.

  7. grindael says:

    Why don’t all those who are “like” Thomas Monson get cushy church jobs, two or three residences and a fat paycheck? Oh yeah, that is only for the “hierarchy”. Everyone else has to make it on their own (and give a percentage to the church) or be poor, like Jesus was. Even then, they are made to pay by having to work for everything they get. Monson is NOTHING like Jesus, he doesn’t know Jesus and is a bad example for those who want to be like Jesus.

  8. falcon says:

    There you go again forgetting the most important thing. Thomas Monson is “thee” prophet. He’s had the second blessing ritual. The dudes a living god! He’s getting Celestial Kingdom perks on earth right now. I mean the guy hears from the Mormon god no less. And don’t forget, Monson can give those up-line siss-boom-bah go-team-go motivational speeches at general conference. He encourages all of his down-line to climb on board the LDS multi-level marketing program and “earn” their place in the Celestial Kingdom where they will be rewarded with their own planetary system and perpetually pregnant wife or wives if they get more assigned to them.
    Monson is their example as to what they all aspire to become. Just work the system and all your eternal dreams will come true.
    Be like Tom!

  9. MJP says:

    A conversation with a Mormon friend this morning revealed that there is a movement for Mormons to allow 12/13 year old children to baptize the dead in the Mormon Temple because it gives them an appreciation of the gospel earlier.

    I wonder how many Monson has baptized for the dead? I also wonder if Monson has to report his taxes. That would be an interesting Freedom of Information Act question.

    I have a feeling he would be treated as if he is above the law, and the church would circle the wagons to protect him.

    I could be wrong…

  10. Kate says:


    Kids starting at age 12 have always gone to temples and baptized for the dead. I didn’t personally do it but my husband did. He was 12. They start once they are out of Primary and into young men’s or young women’s. They take groups of kids and each one is dunked after the name of the dead person is read. They are dunked over and over for about 12 people. It’s a group activity here in Utah and happens all the time.

    I’m not meaning this in a cruel way , Thomas Monson has Alzheimer’s , how can anyone follow that? He’s a nice man but he’s also a sinner just like me. Why would I make it my life’s goal to follow a man’s example when I should be setting my sites higher and following Jesus’ example? Mormons have replaced Jesus with mere men. The prophet worship here in Utah is almost unbearable for me sometimes. Family members have Thomas Monson’s book displayed on the coffee table , pictures of him on the wall, or the picture of all the LDS prophets all dressed in white. Kinda creepy.

  11. MJP says:

    Kate, thanks. The way my friend/car pool mate described it, it seemed something new. Maybe not. The way he described it it seemed a tool to brainwash the kids.

    I did not know Monson had Alzheimer’s either. I had to go to an LDS church this past weekend for a Cub Scout event and it was creepy the pictures they had on the wall. I, too, wonder why they focus so much on mere men and on earthly things when God is the real prize. Family is great, a loving leader can be great, but God is where it is at. I got the feeling that God is an after-thought to Mormons.

  12. falcon says:

    Well Kate……………………….
    Of course Thomas Monson is a sinner just like you but the Mormon god was a sinner also. It’s the system that must be served and those who have made it to the top of the ladder must be at least venerated.
    What a weird strange concoction this brand of Mormonism is.
    I’m still waiting for a Mormon to tell me sometime which sect of Mormonism has the true restored gospel.
    BTW, I saw where that gal got ex’ed the other day from the LDS church for her demos demanding priesthood status for women.
    Frankly, I think they should get to be priests since they’re going to be goddesses in the Celestial Kingdom anyway. And if they’re priests then they should be prophetess also. I would think the LDS gals would like to have a female to relate to.

  13. cattyjane says:

    I have to agree and disagree with you Falcon. I agree that since the entire religion is a lie anyway than who cares if they allow women to hold the priesthood. For that matter let homosexuals and dogs hold the priesthood to. What does it matter. If a person is going to continue in darkness and continue to ignore Hebrews 7 than they might as well live their best life now because this is all their going to get. Wait who am I kidding they ignore the entire bible!
    This is where I have to disagree if we are being serious. If their priesthood was the real deal. First off in order to actually be eligable for priesthood status you must be in the tribe of Levi. Oh sure LDS does their geneology but how many have traced it back before 70ad? Even the Jewish people dont know what tribe they are from because all the geneologies were destroyed in the destruction of the second temple. This is a huge issue if they want to pretend in this restored priesthood. Why do you think the Zionists are trying to find ways to determine what tribe everyone is from? Because in order to dedicate the third temple in Israel each tribe must be present at the dedication. This just proves how little Joseph Smith, the prophets and members of the LDS church know about the operations of the temple and the priests.
    Also priests are male not female. That is how it works so sorry ladies. Study your old test. There are reasons for this.

  14. falcon says:

    Boy cattyjane………………………….
    ………………….you are seriously messed-up!

    The way this works in the LDS church is that it is what it is based on what the prophet says it is. Get that? That’s why foundational doctrine can change with passing generations. It’s called “progressive revelation”. See, more and more light comes into the glorious restored gospel, LDS sect variety; through the prophet. If the current prophet has seriously diminishing mental capacities, the LDS church is in serious trouble. That means essentially that they are without a prophet or have one in name only. But the LDS church has been down this road before.

  15. falcon says:

    So cattyjane……………….
    I hate to have to keep straightening you out but I consider it my duty.
    To expand on my previous comments.
    What the OT has to say about the priesthood is immaterial because if it doesn’t support the LDS narrative it’s because the Biblical text is corrupted. You know this, right? So it was Joseph Smith’s charge by God to restore all that was lost or, at the very least, get it right…….this time. That’s why these modern day prophets are so important.
    These prophets even have an opportunity to change things that have been restored…….previously. For example that would include black and the priesthood and polygamy. In the case of polygamy, it was lost, restored and then sort of lost again. But, hold on, it’s still on the books and will be practiced in the CK.
    OK, what about Adam-God and Blood Atonement that a modern day prophet proclaimed. Well that falls under the heading of “folk doctrine” and possibly “opinion”.
    These LDS folks are very clever. Follow the leaders. They will never lead you astray. When the leaders speak, the thinking has been done.

  16. cattyjane says:

    Sorry. Did I go to far that time? Its just annoying that they ignore everything in scripture about the role of the temple and the priests and call it restored. Show me in the Bible where this was ever done! What happened? Did God make a mistake when he instructed the priests on their roles the first time? Did he just forget to give them instruction on baptism for the dead and temple sealings? What nonsese. Bunch of liers.

  17. falcon says:

    Bunch of liars? But, but, but…… they’re sincere, devout and mean well. Doesn’t that count for something. And man, don’t these guys come across as being very spiritual, righteous and holy? Aren’t the faithful LDS suppose to emulate the prophet?
    Paul was especially tough on false prophets and those who corrupted the gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe they could be referred to what Jesus called “white washed sepulchers”.
    Are the LDS folks responsible for following and adoring their prophet or are the prophet and the LDS system the ones responsible?
    Here’s another thing. Someone can enlighten me about this. So these Mormons have Moroni’s promise right? Read the BoM pray about it and God will tell you if it’s true or not. Does this promise say anything about Joseph Smith, the prophet, the LDS church? Why do these people give themselves over to this nonsense even if the BoM hits their switch, for some reason?

  18. cattyjane says:

    Don’t make me puke. I am not in the mood today. Im sorry if I am coming across kinda hard today but I am so tired of people who lie about scripture. Really Falcon? White washed sepulchers? Don’t give them that much credit. At least the ones who were being called white washed sepulchers actually followed or attempted to follow the laws and instructions that were given to Moses. Heck, if nothing else at least they KNEW what the scriptures said. These people don’t even know. Honestly I don’t think many of them care anyway. These people are nothing more than uncircumcised pagan god worshipers. If Mormonism was around when the apostles were walking around they would be called Gentiles (those outside the covenant of the God of Israel). They would just be another group of people or nation worshiping a false god. So please, don’t insult the Pharisees in such a way. They knew the scriptures. These people (Mormon teachers) have the scriptures in front of them but decide to twist and distort the scriptures to their own destruction. I would say they are closer to 2 Peter 3:16 because these people are unlearned and unstable. They are an embarrassment and bring shame to themselves because they misinterpret the very word of God 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. They do not understand the context or the culture of scripture and since they place themselves in the position of prophets and teachers they will be doubly judged for the ways in which they have guided people James 3:1 .

    I am just so angry at the moment. I really have been through a lot over the last two years trying to sort out what is true and what is not. At some point you have to demand that these people use some common sense! I sometimes think that many of these people know the religion is a lie but they want to believe it so badly that they just continue in what they are doing. I think that if a person is able to do that you have to question if they truly know the God of Israel. Someone who understands the character and nature of the God of Israel would not be able to put their own pleasures before his face for very long because the fear of God would come upon them. You cannot practice a false worship and still think that you will make it. Leviticus 18:1-30

    That whole pray about it to know if it is true, where is that in the Bible Falcon. That is nonsense as well. Did God just give us his word for nothing. Oh ya, just throw it out. What do you need it for when you can just pray and make your insides feel that it is true. What do we do with Acts 17:11? What scriptures would they have been searching to see if what Paul was saying was true? Oh ya. The old test scriptures. I know when I search the scriptures to see what the LDS prophets are teaching I find that it is a big fat LIE.

    I say this not only to people in the LDS faith but to anyone in any faith. If a person is going to serve a God, at the very least they should research why they believe the way that they do and make sure that it is true. Forever is a very long time. Its not worth betting your soul against that. Its better to lose your social life, lose your family relationships and lose your friends than to spend eternity in a very dark place with them.

  19. Rick B says:

    Hey guys,
    This is off topic but thought some might be interested in this.
    Years ago their was an atheist posting here, she went by interested01 and she said she had two daughters, one was a Mormon and one was a christian. So she came here trying to learn about Mormonism.

    She ended up starting her own blog called interested01. It has since been shut down and made private.
    anyway, I spent about 5 years on her blog sharing the gospel with her and I was my usual self telling it like it is. I have stated over the years, my worst critiques are fellow Christians crying about how I say things. And the most respect I have gained over the years was from Non-believers I shared with and was simply myself and being brutally honest.

    Well me and this fellow atheist became really good friends and have kept in touch via email over the years. Well this Saturday she will be on my internet radio show and we will be sharing our story of how we became good friends, when it started out she despised and hated me.

    I wrote her and asked her if she would come one my show and share our story because it proves that I can and others can be ourselves and be straight forward and honest and not be wimpy, PC, cry baby Christians and still share the gospel. Also I am letting her share openly and honestly about problems she sees with Christians and in Christianity. Hopefully Christians will listen to what Atheists think of them and maybe give it some thought.

    If you want to listen to the show, you can go to and at 3pm central time just click on the Mobile button. If you miss the show you can listen to a pod cast of the show at,

    As long as all goes well, the podcast should be up in a day or two after the show. Rick

  20. falcon says:

    You certainly are wound-up today. I’m thinking that someone in the LDS church must have offended you, right? You know of course, having left the LDS church you’ll never be happy and will fall into serious sin within a year of leaving the “one true church”.
    Those who buy into the whole prophet, one true church, priesthood authority paradigm, just can’t understand why you folks leave the LDS church and give so much up.
    I always turn them to Paul’s letter to the Phillipians where he talks about having surpassed all of his contemporaries in zeal for the Law. But now he considers it all rubbish compared to the upward calling/knowledge of knowing Christ Jesus. In Galatians he talks about having not been taught the gospel by man but learned it by a revelation of Jesus Christ. That’s true revelation because Jesus fulfilled the Law as the Scriptures make clear. Jesus is Our Lord, Our Savior, Our King and yes, our priest. Jesus said that all power had been given to Him on heaven and earth by the Father and that the disciples were to wait for that which had been promised; the Holy Spirit. Jesus told them that they would receive power (dynamite) when the Spirit came upon them.
    We receive our authority from the Father who gives us the Spirit.
    We don’t need a prophet or priest because Jesus is both.

  21. RikkiJ says:


    Very sorry for your troubles. The regrettable issue is that LDS members tend to judge their gospel by their emotions (how does it feel or can you feel the Spirit). As such they are entirely lost to the true gospel of grace and need some compassion. One certainly cannot deny that they perpetuate the same false gospel, yet at the same time they are oblivious to that.

    God loves everyone and wants salvation for all. Unfortunately, those who have believed a false Gospel and believed in a false Christ have deceived themselves into a false hope, future and kingdom.

  22. RikkiJ says:


    I’m assuming that you mean we don’t need a ‘prophet’ to lead the church, since Jesus gave:

    “And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” (Eph. 4:11-13, ESV)

    All these five giftings to the church are given until we attain to the unity of faith. The issue that LDS have is that they: 1. Institute a prophet to lead the church (never found in Biblical scripture), 2. Use the office of a prophet for someone who does not prophesy Biblically:

    “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. (1 Cor. 14:25, ESV)

    He/she will not say Joseph Smith is a prophet or the LDS Church is true. He/She will worship God and say God is really among those who prophesy because the secrets of his heart have been disclosed. This will direct him/her to God.

    There’s nothing wrong with having a prophet today who has a gifting of prophecy as much as there is a pastor, evangelist, teacher or apostle.

  23. Ralph says:

    I guess it all depends on what one means by ‘minority elements’. When I hear this I think of criminals and those who perpetuate this life style. If this is what he means then I would whole heartedly follow him. I lived in an area in Sydney where one day while walking to the train station to go to work I followed a trail of blood for about 100 metres. Another morning the police had closed off the street about 500 metres from my place as someone had been shot dead on their front door step due to a drug dispute.

    A female friend of mine describes an area she grew up in where she said that even during the middle of the day you wouldn’t want to walk down the main street without a visible weapon – she mentioned small axe. She was grabbed from just inside her front gate twice as a teen just after walking home from school and dragged away and raped.

    Like I said, if this is what he is referring to as minority elements then yes I would follow him on this advice. I would be doing it to protect my family.

    Also if this is what he meant isn’t it like calling someone (or a group of people) ‘ungodly’ as Paul calls the non-Christians in the Bible?

  24. Rick B says:

    Ralph, my mom was born and raised in Detroit Michigan, I was born in Michigan and spent much time in Detroit. My mom went back for a visit about 5 years ago. She said its a war zone. My brother went back a few years ago and said the same thing. Then friends from my church, husband and wife felt called to Detroit to be a pastor of a church. They say they live in the worst zipcode in the entire united states. Even the chief of police who at one time was anti gun, went public and said, I want all my citizens to openly carry to protect themselves.

    I own a .45 and am going back to Detroit at the end of August and will carry even if my permit is not valid in Michigan since I live in mn. That all said to say this, its great if someone says, you can protect yourself, yet its one thing to give good advice, it’s another thing to claim to know God, speak on HIS behalf, but then lie, cheat and steal, deny what the Bible teaches and justify all these actions all in the name of your church, prophet and religion.

  25. cattyjane says:

    Ok. We all know what he meant by minority elements since it was 1956. I dont approve of that type of language but I do recognise that 1956 was a different time and there were different social boundaries then than there are today. So really im not sure if we can pass judgement on that.

  26. cattyjane says:


    These people dont even know what the job of a prophet was! Prophets brought warnings to people. They irged them towards repentance and said if you dont repent you will be destroyed. Prophets didnt change the laws of God or add to them. Dont they see? Read the OT and NT show me where the Temple was used for anything other than sacrifice. After the instructions were given does it show anywhere that God changes his mind? Never. Never ever ever! If people would just study some history.

  27. falcon says:

    Oh Boy!
    Let’s talk personal protection, guns, concealed carry, second amendment rights (do you know what that is Ralph?).
    “Minority” groups are most often the target of violence by those of the same minority group in this country. Chicago has among the strictest of gun laws in the country and the place is a free fire zone.

    I think we all know that because of our sinful corrupted nature, we are inclined to sin. It’s our nature. That is, sin comes natural to us. Being godly doesn’t. That’s why we need a Savior, which I have and need.
    The best personal protection against the results of sin is a regenerated spirit that comes on the basis of being born again through faith in Jesus Christ.
    Do Mormons have this spiritual personal protection by faith in the LDS system and veneration of a false prophet, a false god and a savior who can’t save them? No! These LDS prophets commit spiritual violence against those who follow them.

    BTW Rick, what you want to do is get the Utah concealed carry permit which allows you to carry in about 35 states. I don’t know if Michigan recognizes the Utah permit. I happen to have the Utah permit. The funny thing is that until two years ago, I had never bought a gun. My man cave is now the home of way too many guns and guitars! BUT I have learned their is no such thing as “too many” when it comes to guns and guitars.

  28. falcon says:


    Here you go:

    “If you are a non-resident of Michigan with a valid concealed pistol permit from your home state, Michigan will recognize your permit. However, you must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the permit. You are subject to Michigan’s concealed pistol law including but not limited to restrictions on where a concealed pistol may be carried. Please review the information provided on this website for further information.”,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10957–,00.html

    Another thought. Do Mormons need to conceal carry a handgun if they are wearing their “garment”? That is, wouldn’t the “garment” provide enough protection? Perhaps someone should ask the Mormon prophet who could then inquire of the Mormon god and get an answer for the faithful LDS members.

  29. cattyjane says:

    Maybe you guys think im crazy because I keep comparing the lds temple of today to the temple that resided among the Hebrew people in the OT and NT. I think this is very significant. I also think that the duties of the priests in the bible as compared to those in the lds church are also important. Is it only strange to me that it matteres what tribe you belonged to in order to be a priest unless its the LDS priesthood we are speaking of? Falcon, even if you scream restored priesthood at me I will say it doesnt work. If God was going to restore the priesthood than I would think he would have to do it for each tribe. He would have had to jand down the family geneologys that were lost ever since 70ad. Also if LDS thinks there can be another High Priest I wonder how they plan to kick Messiah out of his spot? There can only be one High Priest at a time. You know maybe these apostles and prophets need to go to Yeshiva and study under a Rabbi for a few years because they really have no idea whats going on and it just makes them look stupid to those who do know.

  30. falcon says:

    It’s all made up and the LDS people don’t know any better. They don’t know any better because they’ve drank the Kool-Aid. They got the feeling and emotion trumps facts. They could care less about the Jewish temple, it’s purpose, the rituals performed there, the reason for the rituals, and the requirements to be a priest (in that temple).
    All these LDS folks know is that they belong to the “one true church” with a prophet who speaks for God. They are totally absent any knowledge or reasonable thought process when it comes to the first century Christian Church also.
    If they believe that there are millions, perhaps billions of gods in the universe and they can earn godhood themselves by participating in the LDS temple rituals, they’ve gone off the cliff.
    Andy Watson spent a good deal of time and effort walking our friend Ralph back to the second century writings of the Church Fathers and demonstrated that long before the various Church Councils, the Church taught the doctrine of the Trinity. The challenge Andy made to Ralph was now that he knew this, why did he support a Church that was lying about it? Ralph couldn’t make the connection. But remember; Ralph is also the one who said he’d kill or steal if directly ordered to by the LDS prophet.

  31. Kate says:

    We have gone over and over the differences between the LDS temples and what they are used for compared to the temple in the OT. That’s not an issue with LDS. In their minds the Bible isn’t translated correctly. All the info about the ordinances in the LDS temples ( along with Mormonism) were lost during the great apostasy. They believe there’s missing information or those pesky Monks changed things in the Bible. So it does absolutely no good to discuss this with a Mormon. They just have more light and knowledge than people who actually believe the Bible.

    “He would have had to jand down the family geneologys that were lost ever since 70ad.”
    You aren’t going to believe this but when my husband was ordained a deacon at the age of 12, the brother in-law who ordained him gave him a genealogy all the way back to Adam. I think it went back down the line until Peter, James and John then Jesus and then Moses, Noah, Abraham and Adam, I can’t remember if it had names in between the last four or not. I remember thinking that was crazy when she gave it to me years ago.

    “I guess it all depends on what one means by ‘minority elements’.”

    What matters is he felt above those “minority elements” and judged them because of his opinion of them. I can’t imagine it being too bad in Utah in 1956! Not like it would be today with the gangs in SLC. The 50’s were pretty good here in Utah. In 1956 “minority elements” could easily have meant Black, Hispanic, Tongan, etc. Or those of different faiths. Who knows.

  32. cattyjane says:

    I guess for me it was just different. I didn’t believe in Santa Claus or the Easter bunny as a child either. Im a very black and white type of person. Prove to me this is true or I will have nothing to do with it. If there isn’t evidence to support it than throw it out. I was a teenager when I joined. I liked the doctrine of LDS because it didn’t have the trinity, at least not the way Christianity explains it. That is what appealed to me and as a teenager I didn’t dig much deeper into the doctrine than that. But now that I have done more research and know better I can see through the lies and I won’t take part in the rest of it.
    I believe Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc. The prophets in the OT. Those are the only prophets that I need. I have other historical writings that back up these guys and archeological evidence for added support. For me this is what helped me to see that LDS cant be true and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of the God of Israel and neither are any of the other monkeys that have come along. The more that I learn about Israel and the more I learn about the history of the scriptures, the more dangerous the Mormon religion appears to me.
    I think in order to stay LDS you either have to completely avoid researching outside of LDS doctrine (like I did) and not give a whole lot of thought to it or you have to want to believe it regardless if it is a lie or not.

  33. Kate says:

    I understand. I’m more of a black or white person too. I’ve never really been caught up in the OT because in my mind, Jesus came and He gave us a new one. I live by the NT . That doesn’t mean the OT isn’t important, it had its part in God’s plan but I know I’m to live by the NT now. Mormonism is in direct conflict with what the NT teaches.

    I was angry and defensive with my LDS family and friends for a long time but I am coming to see that they are truly spiritually blind and I feel compassion for them now. I have found that talking doctrine gets us nowhere, I’ve just started sharing Jesus with them. How can they deny the words of Jesus himself? His words are a little harder to twist.

  34. Ralph says:

    Falcon and RickB,

    because I am not an American and neither have I been an American resident I know nothing about your gun laws except that they are very lax in comparison to Australian gun laws. Since the Port Arthur massacre the law in Australia is that no one is allowed to carry a gun outside of shooting ranges unless they are a law enforcement person, security officer or military, etc, and they must be on duty. Anyone else can own a gun if its kept on premises at a gun club – not at home, unless you live on a farm or station. There are also restrictions on what type of guns people can own – no automatics and I believe no semi-automatics – single shot only. I also believe this applies to air rifles as my father handed his in (as well as his 22) during the gun amnesty period after the law was introduced. But this doesn’t stop the gangs and other criminal elements from buying them on the black market and cacheing them.

    For us to defend ourselves in Australia it basically has to be by hand only as even hair spray has been denoted as a concealed weapon and we can’t carry knives unless its part of our work, etc. Totally different over here compared to over there and we sit and scratch our heads wondering why you don’t become more like us every time we hear about another school/college shooting.

    BTW falcon – I agree on the guitars and I would add pushbikes

  35. Mike R says:

    Mormon Elder William Walker ( cited by Eric ) said : As we follow President Monson and try
    to be more like him we will inevitably succeed in being more faithful disciples of the Lord Jesus
    Christ .”

    I think that in order for someone to be a more faithful disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ will
    happen by following the teachings Jesus and His apostles rather than the teachings of men
    claiming to be His apostles 1700 years later have tried to introduce as His gospel , like Mormon
    leaders try to do . Mormon leaders , rather than help anyone succeed in being a more faithful
    follower of Jesus have caused sincere people to be detoured away from accurate knowledge
    about Him and the salvation message His apostles taught . In short , a faithful disciple of Jesus
    will not stray from His teachings , but unfortunately Mormon leaders have did just that and
    sadly they have caused their flock to follow them into a ditch — Matt 15:14 .

    The Mormon people can come all the way into the light of truth by dismissing their leaders , like
    Mr Monson , and exchanging them for those men who Jesus sent out to preach the truth about
    Him and how to receive the gift of eternal life — these men are in the New Testament .

  36. Mike R says:

    Catty, you mentioned to Falcon that you feel that the Pharisees knew what the scriptures
    said . Jewish leaders could know their scriptures inside and out but they still missed the
    very truth they should have seen in their scriptures : Jn . 5 : 39-40 . I hope you are not falling
    into a similar situation . I’m glad for you’ve escaped Mormonism , and I’m doubly glad you
    are studying the scriptures God gave through His true prophets ( O.T. ) and to see correct
    worship which these men directed their flock to — they called on the name of Jehovah God
    and worshiped Him — Psalms 99:5,6 .
    God’s arrangement for us today : see Acts 9:14,21 ; Matt 14:33 . Do you see what the
    Jewish leaders in Jn 5: 39 -40 missed ? Have you come to Jesus ? Do you call upon His
    name to experience true worship ? Those Jews , like Paul , finally discovered this amazing
    truth . So please ponder what their journey into spiritual freedom can mean for you .
    Don’t miss out like some Jewish leaders did in Jn 5 . Pardon from sin , true worship and
    bringing glory to God are available by our calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ the Savior.

    Learn what it means to fall in love with Jesus . Your anger , confusion , and frustration can
    dissipate , it may not happen overnight but He can carry you through it .
    Take care.

  37. falcon says:


    “Pushbike”……………what in the world is that? I had to Google it and found it’s just a “bike”. This is pretty scary. We may have a lot in common. I’m also an avid biker; not motorized. I ride everyday as a means of exercise and weight control. I’ve been doing it for decades as I use to do triathlons.
    And guitars. I have six including three that are bass guitars. If only I had some talent because I certainly have the equipment including three amps.

    America has a history of gun ownership going back to the colonial days. I’m all for criminals and crazy people not having guns. In Australia I guess, these are the only people that can really have guns since they ignore the law. Everyone else is at their mercy. We have to go through background checks to buy a gun legally. Again, criminals and crazy people don’t bother with that. I’ve gone through numerous background checks (every time I buy a gun) and have had it affirmed that I am neither a criminal or crazy.

    And BTW a fun fact for you. Do you know who Johnathan Browning was? He was a Mormon in the early days and a prolific inventor of guns. I visited the replica of the gun shop he had in Nauvoo, Ill.

    His son John was born in Ogden, Utah and was also a prolific designer and inventor of firearms.

    “Browning was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and served a two-year mission in Georgia beginning on March 28, 1887. His father Jonathan Browning, who was among the thousands of Mormon pioneers in the mass exodus from Nauvoo, Illinois to Utah, established a gunsmith shop in Ogden in 1852.”

    “John Moses worked in his father’s Ogden shop from the age of seven, where he was taught basic engineering and manufacturing principles, and encouraged to experiment with new concepts. He developed his first rifle, a single-shot falling block action design, then founded his own manufacturing operation, in partnership with his younger brother Matthew Sandifer Browning, and began to produce this firearm.”

  38. Rick B says:

    Ralph, can you say original sin?
    its not a matter of gun laws, guns dont kill people, people kill people. My gun has never went on a killing spree. Many cases in our country and others of people killing people with knives, bombs, planes, even pressure cookers. Do we ban all of these things. Do we need to write laws about pressure cookers?

    No Ralph, were born with a sin nature, you can deny original sin, but you cannot explain why someone born sinless seems to at some point fail and sin. And why does it seem the only person ever to be born sinless and live a sinless life was Jesus, but no one else has ever done it. Its because were born sinners.

  39. cattyjane says:

    Rick B,
    I disagree with you. There is not a such thing as being born with or without sin. The meaning of the word sin in the Hebrew explains it well. Chet means to miss the mark and is the deliberate violation of social and ritual laws, Avon means iniquity and is when a person acts unjustly, lawlessly or perversely, Pesha means to transgress and is outright rebellion against God by violating Gods commandments, and averah means transgression which would be all the other three together and is sin in general.

    Sin is an act that a person chooses to do. In order to sin a person must be able to distinguish right from wrong. James 4:17 explains that. Also you speak about Jesus being born “without sin”. That cant be true if you claim a prophecy in the OT was written about him Isaiah 7:15-16. We are given a free will that is why scripture is so strong about raising our children in the ways of the Lord so that they do not depart from them Deut 6. So it is a choice and once we know right from wrong we become accountable for the choices we make.

  40. Rick B says:

    the bible teaches we are all born sinners and born with a sin nature through Adam.

    All have sinned an fallen short of the glory of God. Mormons deny original sin . Jesus was born perfect and sinless, he was the only one ever. That’s why Jesus was not born from an earthly father, Joseph was an adopted father if you will. Mary was his mother, but sin comes from the seed of man passed on, that why God needed to over shadow Mary.

  41. Rick B says:

    I’m writing from my phone at work, that’s why my replies are short.
    but you need to read Romans, it talks about one man sinning (Adam) and as a result were all born sinners, but Jesus is the second Adam that brings life. The first adam brought death.

    If you deny this, then I seriously think you might as well stayed in Mormonism or simply went on to be an atheist.

  42. cattyjane says:

    Then Isaiah 7 is not speaking about Jesus Christ. Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. So your telling me that in order to believe in Jesus as the Messiah I have to believe every one was born a sinner except Jesus. Where does it say that in scripture that its a requirement to believe that? And how does not believing that throw me into the category of an atheist or a mormon? Thats a bit extreme and I think you jump to insults because you now cant fit Isaiah 7 to be about Jesus if he has to learn right from wrong.

  43. cattyjane says:

    Who is the author of Romans 3 speaking to? He is speaking to those who know right from wrong. He is explaining that there is not a difference between a Jew or a Gentile because each choose to go against Gods instructions and follow there own desires. Remember that the Jewish people saw themselves as more righteous than the Gentiles because they were intrusted with the Torah, Gods instructions. What the author is saying here is that just because you are born a Jew it doesnt make you rigjteous but it is your obedience that makes you righteous. Because the Jewish people were sent prophets, spoke withGod at Mt Sinai and were instrusted with the Torah, they are shown the path to righteousness and should be a light to the world. They are without excuse. But he was impressing upon them that it isnt about being born a Jew or a gentile but about doing what God said and following instruction.

  44. Rick B says:

    I never insulted you by saying you should have stayed a Mormon or been an atheist. You and me wrote back and forth many private emails, You know me, I speak my mind and I did and do care for you.

    It seems you are denying Original sin, and while their is no verse saying if you deny that you cannot be saved, I will say if you deny that, then you probably are not saved since you clearly dont understand or know the Bible and If your wrong on these things, what else are you wrong on?

    Romans 5:12 says

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    If you deny original sin, then can you explain why it seems we all seem to sin? And why the Bible says, we all have fallen short of the Glory of God?

    Then when you said

    Then Isaiah 7 is not speaking about Jesus Christ. Ok thanks for clearing that up for me.

    You put words in my mouth and I never said that. The over all story of the Bible from Start to Finish, Gen-Rev is Man Fell and God redeemed us and is working in us. If we did not fall through Adam, then why did Christ Die for us? What the point of the temples and Animal sacrifices? The animals were killed, since sin is taken away by the shedding of Blood, but as Hebrews teaches, the Blood of bulls and goats was not enough, so Jesus was that final sacrifice for us. So denying Original sin is deny most of the Bible. So yes, your wrong.

  45. Rick B says:

    If Original sin is not real, Then why did Jesus say, No One is Good, not a single person is good?
    If were born good and simply somehow go bad, then Jesus cannot say, No one is good, because their would be some good people, even if they were new born,s.

    Then the Bible tells us, The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. How can that be true if we good?

    Why does the Bible say, If we confess our sins? If were not sinners.
    Why does the Bible say this 1 peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

    Or why does God say were enemies of God and we need to be redeemed? Its because were born sinners.

  46. cattyjane says:

    Rick B,
    So children who dont know how to disern right from wrong are sinners. So they dont make it? Wow. I disagree.

  47. Rick B says:

    Stop putting words in my mouth. Again, I never said that. You seriously need to read your bible and stop listening to mere men. As of yet you cannot and have not explained why were sinners if were born good, you have avoided the scriptures I posted. And if you knew your bible you would know when king david committed adultery with bathseba that they were punished by the child dying. But what did king David say, I can go to you, but you cannot come to me.

    He was talking about being with his child. Kids before the age of accountability go to heaven, we just know what that age is. You clearly dont trust the bible since you’ve stated you dont trust or believe Paul. So that’s why I said you might have well stayed a mormon or been an athiest. You also stated you want to follow the rabbies and keep putting your self under the law ftom which Jesus died to save you from. Seriously start reading the bible and answer me on why were not sinners if you truly believe that, despite scripture stating we are.

  48. Kate says:

    I’m trying to understand where you are coming from. I remember you saying you don’t trust Paul. Your comments seem to all stem from the OT. Have you tried getting into the NT? As Christians, that’s where we live. Jesus is also in the OT but His life and ministry are in the NT. From where I sit, you seem to be more into Judaism than Christianity. If that’s the case then that is fine but could you tell us so we know how to read your comments?

    Spot on. As a Mormon I didn’t understand original sin either. I do now. Through Adam all men inherited sin and death and through Jesus we inherit eternal life. It’s really quite simple but for people who have been brainwashed into believing little children have no sin in them until they are 8 years old, it’s a hard thing to grasp. We are all born with a sin nature, the age of accountability is another issue.

  49. Ralph says:


    here in Australia the word bike means either motorbike or pushbike. If you join a conversation in which they are talking about bikes you need to find the proper context before piping in otherwise everyone will be confused. Other terms are pushy and treadly for the pedal power.


    The question in the article was only about would we follow Pres Thompson’s example of calling a group a minority and moving out. Nothing about theology, so I have answered the question.

  50. Rick B says:

    Ralph, no worries, I dont expect anything less from you. I’ve learned over the years you dont like answering questions, many you cannot, so you always have an excuse for not answering them. But when you stand before God, you will be with out any excuses and when your tossed out of God’s presence for all of eternity, you’ll know, you were told the truth over and over and you will be eternally reminded, you choose a false prophet and lies over God and truth.

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