For the past several years I have been bringing a replica set of “gold plates” to the Mormon Miracle Pageant held annually in Manti, Utah. By encouraging Mormon visitors to lift my plates, it gives me an opportunity to explain the many problems I see with the official account of how Smith allegedly retrieved the plates back in 1827.
My plates are six inches by eight inches, by six inches deep, the same measurements given by Joseph Smith. And although my plates are made of sheet metal and are much lighter than gold plates, they are still quite heavy—80 pounds. If Smith’s plates were actually made of the metal gold, their soft consistency and dense weight would tend to expel any air gaps between the plates. In other words, as plates are added to the ever increasing record, the plates (at least near the bottom of the stack), would tend to flatten out. That being the case, it would be very likely that the six-inch stack would weigh around 200 pounds.
Mormons are led to believe that Smith carried the plates under his arm, and while carrying them home three miles away, he was able to jump over a log, fight off three separate attackers, and that he ran “at the top of his speed” to get away from these men.
Amazingly, many Mormons insist that because Smith was “a buff farm boy” he was able to accomplish such a feat, but when a Mormon finally realizes that replicating Smith’s story is humanly impossible, they have no recourse but to insist that a miracle was involved. The problem with such a claim is that if Smith needed a miracle to carry the plates, then surely Moroni, the person Mormons believe buried the plates centuries ago, must have needed one too, not to mention all of the other Book of Mormon characters who certainly handled the plates towards the time they were supposedly buried in the ground. Amusing in- deed is a scene in the Mormon Miracle pageant where Mormon hands the plates to Moroni as if it was a football.
Are we to assume that the “eight witnesses” mentioned in the front of the Book of Mormon also needed a miracle to “heft” the plates? If so, wouldn’t Smith’s wife, Emma, who was known to have moved the plates around on the table “as her work required it,” also need a miracle? (See Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, p. 70.)
Mormon leaders of the past never seemed to entertain the notion that a miracle was needed.
For example, if a Mormon wants to insist that Smith needed a miracle to carry the plates he must explain the following comment from Mormon Apostle John A. Widtsoe. Understanding that plates of pure gold would be much too heavy for Smith to carry, he offered this explanation:
“A cube of solid gold of that size, if the gold were pure, would weigh two hundred pounds, which would be a heavy weight for a man to carry, even though he were of the athletic type of Joseph Smith. This has been urged as an evidence against the truth of the Book of Mormon, since it is known that on several occasions the Prophet carried the plates in his arms. It is very unlikely, however, that the plates were made of pure gold. They would have been too soft and in danger of destruction by distortion. For the purpose of record keeping, plates made of gold mixed with a certain amount of copper would be better, for such plates would be firmer, more durable and generally more suitable for the work in hand. If the plates were made of eight karat gold, which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry, and allowing a 10 percent space between the leaves, the total weight of the plates would not be above one hundred and seventeen pounds—a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith” (John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris, Jr., Seven Claims of the Book of Mormon, pp. 37-38).
Widtsoe would have no need to give such an explanation if he believed that a miracle was involved. Still, Widtsoe’s hypothesis fails for one simple reason — 117 pounds is not at all an easy weight to carry, no matter how strong he thinks Smith may have been. This can be easily demonstrated.
At the Utah Lighthouse bookstore in Salt Lake City, Sandra Tanner has a replica set of plates made of lead on display. Lead is lighter than gold, but like gold, it is very soft and very dense, hence the plates contain no air gaps, making it appear as a solid piece. Though only one pound heavier than Widtsoe’s estimate, visitors to the bookstore who attempt to lift the lead plates learn very quickly that Smith could not achieve what Mormons are led to believe. In fact, many who fail to lift the plates at all, often ask if they are bolted down. No, they are not.
Mormon apologists who admit that plates made of actual gold would be much too heavy for Smith to carry like to point to Reed Putnam, a Mormon metallurgist who insisted that the gold plates were actually made of an alloy consisting mostly of copper. Perhaps knowing that Witdsoe’s arbitrary 10% air gap between the plates is entirely inadequate, he argues that if plates had a whopping 50% air gap, the weight could be brought down to as little as 53 pounds.
But why bother if a miracle was involved? If God could miraculously allow Smith to carry 53-pound plates, He most certainly could have enabled Smith to carry 200-pound plates. Efforts by Mormon apologists to get the weight of the plates down to a manageable level tend to prove they do not believe a miracle was involved. Furthermore, Mormon attempts to make the plates lighter actually take away from the glory of God. After all, is it not more of a miracle for Smith to carry 200-pound plates as opposed to 118-, or even 53-pound plates?
—
This article is reprinted from the May-June 2014 issue of Mormonism Researched.
So where are the plates today so that we can determine their true composition? They are now in heaven.
So where are the BoM lands and artifacts so we can analyze them? We can only speculate on that.
Where is an example of Reformed Egyptian anywhere on the planet so we can decode the Caractors? It has never been found.
Where are the biblical manuscripts that come anywhere close to being what the JST says? They were all destroyed by the whore of the earth; all of them.
How very convenient.
Hey MT,
I’m always asking the question about reformed Egyptian, I once had one Mormon come here, I think it was Ralph, claiming it does exist and none of us know what were talking about. Yet no Mormon has ever been able to produce facts for it.
Religion ultimately gets down to the miraculous and for any of us we have to decide if we’re going to believe these stories.
Is there any bigger miracle than Jesus’ resurrection? The entirety of Christianity is built on the foundation of Jesus being raised from the grave. The Apostle Paul goes into great length making this point. In fact he writes that if Jesus wasn’t resurrected from the dead, then we of all men are to be most pitied. The Bible is a book of not only God’s plan of salvation for mankind but also a book of the miraculous. The Bible has accounts of people trafficking in false miracles. Satan can do it and many things that people count as miracles are things that come out of their own souls and are not a result of God’s intervention.
So for religious charlatans, claims of the miraculous are needed for self-promotion. I could make a long list of “Christian” rip-off artists who have made their living off of people who are willing to believe just about any story of the miraculous.
But in order for this to work, it’s necessary for those who believe them to suspend credulity.
This is the case with those who buy into Joseph Smith fantasy world. In this world emotions rule and any type of discernment that calls into question the narrative is seen as having a lack of faith. It’s Satan attempting to deceive the true believing Mormon. Ironic isn’t it? A person’s mind has to be flipped to the point that doubting Smith is seen as being influenced by the devil? What a set-up and trap!
What the Mormon leadership knows is that genuine skepticism is the real enemy of the false religion that they promote.
Going back to my original 4 points, I ask my Mormon friends, if this is not what a religious scam looks like then what would one look like? Joseph Smith’s new religion is the poster child of a theological scam.
And just on these 4 fundamental points of Joe’s new religion (ignoring many more that could be discussed), if any single one of these could be substantiated that would be earth-shatteringly significant for their truth claims. Think about it. IF we had the plates before us today. Or IF we could find one Lehite artifact/land. Or IF we could find Reformed Egyptian anywhere in human history. Or IF we could just find one ancient parchment that contained the text of the JST. If just any one of these were true then this would be astonishing validation that Mormonism were true. And yet, the LDS church tells members that the truthfulness of their religion is found… within each member? How is this not a scam again?
Wow the holes in mormon doctrine just get bigger and bigger. If it doesnt make sense it must be a miracle. Just like the story of the barges. Gd certainly doesnt have any common sense so when things dont work out like a 200lb book then he has to provide a miracle each and every time he needs to move the book. Funny how they didnt write on scrolls like every other Hebrew decendant!
One question I have is for the pretend priesthood. I would love to see their geneology that proves they are in the Tribe of Levi and a decendant of Aaron. If they cant prove that than they have no right to hold the priesthood.
Im so tired of liars.
Having been raised Catholic and attending Catholic school in the “50s”, I grew-up on stories of the miraculous. The Blessed Virgin Mary has her own significant following around her appearances to various individuals.
I’ve posted all sorts of things on this blog dealing with the Virgin Mary alone. There are Catholics that really venerate Mary. I have a small plastic statue of Mary in my basement. I had given it to my mother when I was a kid and I found it when I was cleaning out her house after she died. I don’t know what to do with it since it has some sentimental value attached to it.
So what’s my point?
All religions have this sort of thing going on and people have to sort out fact from fiction. The problem that Mormons have is that there’s no fact. So after the “sort”, there’s nothing left. Is it any wonder so many former Mormons become atheists?
So here’s one I grew up on:
First Vision of the Virgin Mary
“On February 11th 1858, Bernadette had her first vision of ‘a beautiful lady’. During a mission to collect firewood, Bernadette stumbled across a grotto that at the time was filled with rubbish washed up from the river. As her friends went on to collect firewood, she was left in the grotto. In her own words she describes the vision she saw:”
“I came back towards the grotto and started taking off my stockings. I had hardly taken off the first stocking when I heard a sound like a gust of wind. Then I turned my head towards the meadow. I saw the trees quite still: I went on taking off my stockings. I heard the same sound again. As I raised my head to look at the grotto, I saw a Lady dressed in white, wearing a white dress, a blue girdle and a yellow rose on each foot, the same color as the chain of her rosary; the beads of the rosary were white.”
http://www.biographyonline.net/spiritual/bernadette-soubirious.html
Here’s a short three minute video that I’d highly recommend. After all, we are talking about the miracle of the golden plates. Here’s a video of Bernadette’s body. She was exhumed ten years after her death and her body had not decayed. She’s on display under a glass enclosure. So is that a miracle? So therefore the Catholic church is the “one true church”, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5711hI04mw
cattyjane, Let’s not forget that even Lehi was not of the tribe Levi but rather of Manasseh. Alma 10:3 says,
And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.
Even the Nephites had a pretend priesthood.
Mormons believe they come from the tribe of Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh. Some are even told which one during their patriarchal blessing.
Mormons either aren’t aware that only the Levites held the priesthood or they believe it’s part of the Bible that is mistranslated or missing parts. They have a prophet and continuing revelation that easily explains it all away.
I wouldn’t call all Mormons liars. I would call the majority of them indoctrinated, brainwashed or deceived. I am literally surrounded by good, honest Mormons who truly believe what they have been taught is the truth. I would call the church leadership liars though. You can’t tell me that Thomas Monson doesn’t know that he isn’t speaking directly with God, or Gordon Hinckley for that matter. When is the last time a LDS prophet came out with a revelation? Spencer Kimball’s “declaration” doesn’t count as a revelation. Neither does Wilford Woodruff’s “declaration” on polygamy. When did God start revealing things in this manner? God is not a respecter of persons so why would he discontinue a practice that He revealed through Joseph Smith (polygamy) just so Utah could become a State? Why would he allow the Blacks to receive the priesthood after he revealed to Brigham Young that it would never happen until after the second coming of Christ, just so the LDS church could remain tax exempt and BYU could enjoy it’s sports? Wake up Mormons, something doesn’t smell right.
If someone is going to accept what these “prophets” claim, evidence isn’t really all that important; nor is common sense.
There was a guy a couple of years ago who was making a big splash in the modern Charismatic movement. He was on one of the Christian networks every night from Florida, preaching in his high tech tent. All sorts of things were claimed including the appearance of gold teeth in some people’s mouth. It went on all summer and eventually all fell a part when details of his private life became known. People would flock to the tent every night. I remember watching this train wreck wondering why all of these people were showing up night after night.
So after it all fell a part one of the movers and shakers in the movement with a pretty good reputation took him under his wing. After a while of “restoration” he was preaching again. Ridiculous!
“The World Wide Church of God” had a founder by the name of Herbert W. Armstrong. The guy was in serious error but something extraordinary happened after his death. The leadership saw the error and had an internal reformation of sorts.
Maybe there’s hope for Mormonism but I don’t see the LDS church turning the corner. Individual Mormons will have to have their own personal revival.
When people “get out”, they can’t understand how they could have been taken in and believed the claims of these false prophets.
I referenced the “World Wide Church of God” above. After the death of the founder and prophet many in the leadership started to take a closer look at what they had believed. One of Herbert Armstrong beliefs was in a lost tribe of Israel. Sound familiar?
Here’s a nine minute video, the third of eight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBCYbhRrphg
Kate , I agree with you , the vast majority of Mormons are a sincere decent people who make
great neighbors, friends and co workers . It’s sad to see that these people have been misled
by the individuals who Jesus warned would come in the latter days — Mk 1322-23 .
This is also the dilemma the people are in who follow another latter days false prophet , this
one rules from Brooklyn N.Y. ( and which my wife used to follow ) —- normal people ,
sincerely striving to serve God but being detoured by false prophets into embracing a gospel
that is a counterfeit one .
It breaks your heart .
The issue with the Book of Mormon for me is that I realize that I simply do not need it .
The gospel of salvation that Jesus’ apostles preached is the true one , and is efficient
to embrace in order to receive complete forgiveness and the gift of eternal life from God .
That gospel of salvation did not become unavailable to man on earth for 1700 years until
Joseph Smith arrived on the scene to make it again available . That’s the ridiculous teaching
Mormon leaders have taught . These latter days imposters have run past the N.T. teaching
concerning the true requirements for salvation , and they have done the same thing with the
Book of Mormon . They keep adding more of their ideas to the true gospel , something Paul
warned would happen — Gal 1:8 .
Mormon authorities have put a ton of effort in the last 10-20 years on attempting to provide
” proof ” that the Book of Mormon is of God . To me it’s all futile , seeing as it is only a record
of some ” dead prophets ” , much like Mormons view the Bible . Mormons need a ” living ”
prophet , a man at the top , submission to whom they believe brings them favor with God and
is necessary today for salvation , and also whatever new teaching this man introduces to them
just has to be from God . Sadly this scenario has caused the Mormon people to trust in men
who don’t deserve their allegiance — or money .
To be fair , there has been some ” t.v. preachers ” in the last few years that aren’t much better.
Polite , well dressed men have fooled many sincere people not just Mormons .
There is a better way — may the Mormon people start by exchanging their apostles for the
ones that Jesus sent out to preach the true gospel of salvation —Rom 1:16 .
I think the one thing that Joseph Smith forgot to mention about the Golden Plates was this:
“‘On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible.
“‘To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room.’
“Now, said Joe, ‘I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun.’ Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clapboards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case.” (Peter Ingersoll Affidavit, Palmyra, NY [Quoted from Vogel, Early Mormon Documents 2:39-46].
Peter Ingersoll was one of the closest friends to Joseph Smith, Jr.
http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/evidence-against-mormonism-joseph-confesses/
What a con job!
It’s important for people to realize also that these “witnesses” for Smith’s discovery, saw them with the “eyes of faith”. This bunch of treasure hunters had a secret weapon known as “second sight vision”. This is the practice of looking into the spirit world and “seeing” things there. In-other-words, they saw what they saw in their imagination. Just think of all of the miraculous things a person can see when they use such a method. It must be a lot of fun and a form of spiritual entertainment.
The link to the video I posted above demonstrates what happens when honest, sincere people actually undertake some serious study regarding their church’s doctrine. This is what happened with the leaders in the Worldwide Church of God. What I find fascinating is up to that time, these men simply accepted what Herbert Armstrong taught. When they started to study the Bible and the history of the early Christian Church, they found that what Armstrong had been teaching had no foundation.
It’s the same with Mormonism. Instead of simply accepting these fantastic claims that Smith made and swallowing whole the doctrine produced by these religious amateurs, a devout Mormon needs to study for themselves.
So, you bring 80-pound plates to the pageant, but it would take a miracle for Joseph Smith to handle 53-pound plates?
You summarily dismiss Reed Putnam’s analysis published in 1966 in The Improvement Era. His analysis seems a lot more scientific–and convincing–than yours.
(And as for what you call his “whopping” assumption of 50% air, that is not at all out of line for hand-hammered plates with all their inevitable irregularities in width and flatness, that are further wrinkled and bent by engraving and handling–very different than your example made of manufactured sheet metal. Your argument about the weight flattening them is not convincing, because the rings holding them together would have to be high enough to hold them when the weight is off them and they fluff up, or they would be as unusable as a three-ring binder stuffed with too many pages. If Joseph’s approximate dimensions included the height of the rings, the volume of metal would be significantly less.)
Here is a portion of Putnam’s analysis:
“But plates would weigh much less than a solid block of the same metal. The unevenness left by the hammering and air spaces between the separate plates would reduce the weight to probably less than 50 percent of the solid block.
“As already noted, though, the plates were not made of pure, or 24-carat, gold. On one hand it seems probable that they were not made of an extremely low-gold alloy because of the danger of electrolysis and brittleness. On the other hand, they were probably not of an extremely high-gold alloy either, since the weight would thereby be increased. There would also be a danger of distortion while the plates were being inscribed, because of the ductility of these higher alloys.
“Some writers have suggested an 8-carat-gold alloy for the plates of Mormon. [Eight-carat gold still very much has “the appearance of gold”–which is how Joseph described the plates.] If this is assumed, then, using the gravimetric system of William C. Rott, a block having the dimensions of the plates would consist of 25.79 pounds of gold, occupying 37 cubic inches of the block; 77.84 pounds of copper, occupying 242. 5 cubic inches; and 3.25 pounds of silver ( 3 percent added as an impurity), occupying 8.5 cubic inches. Thus a block of tumbaga of the dimensions indicated for the plates of the Book of Mormon and with 8-carat alloy and 3-percent native impurity would weigh 106.88 pounds. Using such a block as a beginning point, 50 percent of the weight should be subtracted for air space; thus the weight of the stack of plates would be about 53 pounds. If these figures seem unrealistic, remember that gold has twice the density of copper and therefore occupies about one-sixth of the total volume.”
What it comes down to is until Mormons accept the scriptures in the bible as complete they will be willing to believe anything. I agree that there are some things in the NT that are mistranslated. For example the word Pesach is in the NT 19 times I believe and only one of those times is it ever translated as Easter. Thank you Francis Bacon for that little addition. This is obviously a mistranslation but if a person has understanding enough about the context and the culture we know that was really speaking of Passover, Pesach. There are a couple of other things in the NT that are like that but it has nothing to do with temples or priesthood or baptism. None of these mistranslations would require a complete restoration and overhaul like Joseph Smith claims. So God screwed up? No. God knows the end from the beginning.
If there was a need for a restoration what happens to all the people inbetween those times? Even with temple works you have to know their names, or can you do works for the unknown dead? So if you dont know their names, for example native american dont have records and most people cant go back before 1200s. What happens to these people? Guess they dont make it.
None of this makes any sense and if Joseph Smith would have been running around telling nonsense like this to Moses, Daniel, or any of the Priests in the NT he would have been called a goyim and killed for heresy. Because its not true!
The temple works are invalid for the dead, as are the sacrifices. Challenge me please. Find me a place in the OT where sacrifice was ever offered to cover the dead. Sacrifices were offered only for the living, never the dead.
Just as Joseph Smith lied about the golden book he has lied about the temples and their works. None of these things line up with the scriptures in the bible. There is no such thing as works to redeem the dead. This is sick stuff.
Do facts trump emotion?
In the BoM the reader is to expect a feeling to determine the truth of the book. In the Bible, Book of Acts, we are told that the Bereans were “noble” because of how they studied the scriptures to determine if what Paul was preaching was true.
This is why Mormon leadership labels anything that doesn’t agree with Mormonism as being “anti”. How many former Mormons will testify to having been “flipped” when they started studying the Bible? Mormonism is diametrically opposed to the message found in the NT.
A religious witness that depends on emotion and claims of the miraculous is on shaky ground. Mormonism depends on folks believing that the gospel was lost. An easily disproved charge. Mormonism depends on folks believing that the Biblical text has been corrupted. Another easily disproved claim.
Mormonism depends on people accepting Joseph Smith’s claim of going to the little grove of trees as a young boy and having two spirit beings appear to him. It’s not just the fact that the story changed numerous times but also that the two spirit beings he said he saw includes one, God the Father, that the Bible tells us has no body.
I could go on but I think the point is clear. Mormons will accept any explanation offered by their leadership because the emotional attachment to the Mormon narrative is so strong. It’s only when all of the things that a Mormon “puts on the shelf” begins to clutter the shelf and it’s in danger of collapsing, that a Mormon will begin to consider the facts. Then they have to begin to deal with negative emotions which they are trained to believe are proof that what they are discovering is false.
I would tell a Mormon to put their emotions aside, if possible, and deal with the cold hard facts. The Lord will reward your quest with joy that is legitimately the results of the truth, not fiction.
Does anyone know how many spirit visitors Joseph Smith claimed to have? This is what I know.
1. Went to the woods and on about the eighth version of what occurred, said he saw Jesus and God the Father. Pay no attention that on the first telling he said he went to the woods to pray and get assurance of the forgiveness of sins. This was a pretty common practice among Christians at the time.
2. He said an angel appeared to him by the name of Moroni and gave him instructions regarding finding some golden plates buried in the ground.
3. He reported an appearance by James, John and Peter (right?) and got the restoration of the priesthood.
4. He reported that an angel with a sword appeared to him telling him that he (Smith) would be killed if he didn’t start marrying more women.
Now I’m sure there were probably more since these early Mormons told of all sorts of spirit appearances. I think it was Willford Woodruff who reported that the Signers of the Declaration of Independence appeared to him insisting that the temple work be done for them. I believe he called them “choice spirits”.
Come on folks. This isn’t just a golden plates scam.
One thing I’ve never figured out with Mormons is their contention that good feelings confirm the truth. The second part of that is the idea that if a person reads the BoM and gets a positive emotional response then it follows that the BoM is true and everything else associated with Mormonism is true. So Moroni’s challenge, I thought, was just for the BoM. Why couldn’t someone say, “Well I’ll just commit to the BoM” ? Why would the person have to buy everything else that the LDS sect, for example, beliefs, teaches and practices. There’s been enough revisionism in the LDS church that I’d think that the truth sort of becomes a moving target. The truth changes.
What if a Mormon would read the Nicene Creed or Apostles’ Creed and get a really good feeling about that? What would they do with the conflict between LDS doctrine and fundamental Christian doctrine?
To take this further, there are people who get seduced into all sorts of things because it makes them feel good. A visit to a prostitute, viewing pornography, taking elicit drugs, drinking alcohol to access, gluttony, greed, adultery there’s no end to it.
People get seduced by religious imposters because the (religious) con satisfies a need. Truth need not be all that important. It’s the emotion.
Naya, let us see the plates so we can see who is right. Without them, its all speculation and theories.
The unfortunate part for Mormonism is that, as MistakenTestimony pointed out, there are far too many issues of pure speculation in Mormonism to be taken too seriously. Further, what often what we do know contradicts much of Mormon lore and truth claims.
Nayajja,
You provide us an excerpt from Putnam who mentions “a block of tumbaga.” The old tumbaga argument. So we know the Nephi made the plates in the New World upon his families arrival in 1 Nephi 19. Your friend Putnam is suggesting that Nephi made the plates out of tumbaga. Tumbaga was only sparsely ever used in Mesoamerica, and it was primarily used in the Andes region of South America. But even its use in Mesoamerica postdates the entire timeline of the BoM narrative. Mesoamerica was a purely stone age civilization during the BoM time frame. The BoM mentions a metallurgical civilization during both the Jaredite and Lehite civilizations, and yet no metal workings has been found in the New World as described in the manner of the BoM during these time frames. So if Nephi was a metal-worker, and the BoM only speaks of an iron age civilization, why does the historical record of the ancient Americas completely contradict this? The second problem is Reformed Egyptian. Why has Reformed Egyptian never been discovered in the New World? The ancient Maya had a written language and wrote all over their ancient monuments. Did the Lehites never write anything on anything, ever? Heck, even Captain Moroni wrote Reformed Egyptian on a banner so we know it could easily be done. So it’s incredibly improbable that a man in an ancient stone age civilization who develops metal-working technology would not pass that technology throughout the civilization. It’s also incredibly improbable that an ancient civilization with a fully developed writing system would never write anything, on anything, ever, for any reason. And it is impossible for an iron-age civilization to be undiscovered in the year 2014. Putnam’s suggestion that Nephi made the Reformed Egyptian plates out of tumbaga is, how shall I say, a very convenient answer.
Falcon asks the question : ” Does anyone one know how many spirit visitors Joseph Smith
claimed to have ? ”
Good question . Since we have the church established by Jesus and the gospel of salvation
He gave His apostles to spread to everyone , for Smith to claim that this church and gospel
had been unavailable for 1700 years but now it is being restored through him facilitated by
visits by spirit beings , angels of light , that should raise a huge red flag to christians .
Sounds like Paul tried to warn Joseph Smith and any of the others prophets who arose in the
latter days to stick with the original salvation message he received and preached —- Gal 1:8
Sadly , Mormon leaders have rationalized away Paul’s counsel to them and proceeded to
introduce doctrines to augment what he taught —Rom 1:16 . Introducing teachings as a
result of spending time listening to beings who you think are angels of light is not the kind
of prophet I’m going to trust in these latter days simply because this is something humans can
be easily manipulated by — 2Cor 11:13 -14 . Joseph Smith , though sincere , succumbed to this.
I can’t trust him nor his successors simply because they have not officially admitted they have
taught / condoned false doctrine .
Mormons have called Moroni a ” angel of light ” . Moroni visited and helped Smith with starting
his church .
The Book of Mormon ( like Moroni ) , is a good imitation.
Naya,
The evidence for the book of Mormon being a false book, and evidence for Joseph smith being a false prophet is so over whelming, that the golden plates and how much they way really amounts to diddly.
Even if it was just 50lbs, how far does that get you?
Anyone who has carried 40lbs By Arms knows is stats getting really heavy quick, soon too heavy, let alone three miles with assailants (including a pistol whip to the head if i remember directly), and sprinting! And jumping!
This 50lbs isn’t in a pack on his back, it’s in his arms or even under one arm for three miles!
This is a good example of how LDS don’t rally think things through.
Oh, and Emma scooted 50lbs around the room as she was cleaning, really?
Is it just me or, as they make this gold book lighter and lighter with more air space in between the pages, are LDS not shrinking the total number of gold pages to hold this 500 page document?
We have an idea what the BoM original characters were like. They were not complicated enough to translate to much at all per character. How tiny do they really think engravings can be on fewer and fewer pages and still come up with the 500+ pages of translated scripture?
LDS who claim the plates were beaten in such a way as to put air in them still have a problem. That is, air it’s self is heavy. Take an empty balloon and weigh it. Then fill it with air and weigh it, granted the air won’t add much weight, but what it will do is add space making it bigger and bulky. So this makes 40 to 50 pounds harder to run around with and carry under one arm. No matter how you look at it, it’s a problem.
On a serious note, maybe Grindael could animate a picture of Chuck Norris running with the gold plates in a marathon full of vicious zombies while fighting to keep them off of him. I think this would be a closer representation to what TBMs invision in their heads, and much more entertaining to behold.
@Nayajja
Let’s assume that Joseph Smith was a superhuman who could carry the brass plates or that the brass plates were not heavy and that he could run with them [see: http://www.mrm.org/weight-of-plates%5D.
Why is there overwhelming evidence that these plates were ‘made’ by Joseph Smith and that he confessed to his friends that he had duped others about the plates?
“‘On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible.
“‘To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room.’
“Now, said Joe, ‘I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun.’ Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clapboards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case.” (Peter Ingersoll Affidavit, Palmyra, NY [Quoted from Vogel, Early Mormon Documents 2:39-46].
Peter Ingersoll was one of the closest friends to Joseph Smith, Jr.
http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/evidence-against-mormonism-joseph-confesses/
@falcon
Thanks for that video link on the Worldwide Church of God. It’s eye opening!
One of the supposed witnesses to the Book of Mormon, David Whitmer said that the plates were made of “pure gold”. Mormons believe his testimony that he saw them, and had an angel tell him all about them, but they don’t believe this. Jo’s own mother wrote they were “pure gold” in 1829, right at the time when Jo supposedly was translating them. The Book of Mormon says in Mosiah 8:9 that the twenty-four Jaredite plates “which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.” Why would the Nephite plates be any different? No one has given a good reason.
The Tumbaga argument doesn’t work in this case, because the gold amounts in Tumbaga varied, and most was 70% gold and 30% copper (for religious items) and much was as high as 97% gold. There is simply no way to know, or to give a percentage. So it is not surprising to discount such rank speculation as Putnam gives.
Here is direct evidence from a 1992 shipwreck that there was much Tumbaga plundered by the Spanish which had a far HIGHER content of gold than Putnam speculates. They claim that it was only UP TO 18% that was other metals besides gold, which fits right in with the 70/30 ratio for religious artifacts.
Putnam’s speculations fail on three counts, direct historical accounts that contradict him from those who were there and described the plates, the Book of Mormon which contradicts him, and actual discoveries that contradict him.