The other day I was invited to attend LDS seminary classes at the public high school my youngest daughter attends. Seminary, for those who don’t know, is a four-year program put together by the LDS Church for their high school students. The one-year topics are Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants (church history), which is this year’s emphasis.
Mormon students throughout the United States typically meet before or after school at the local LDS chapel. In Utah, however, most high schools have a dedicated building located next door for the students to attend during the school day in a program called “release time.” The majority of this school’s student body—of the school’s 1,800 students, 1,000 attend seminary—are enrolled at this seminary, which is located directly behind the school. My middle child who attended a middle school in 9th grade five years ago told me how LDS students publicly bragged about attending these voluntary classes. She said such attitudes served as barriers with other students. Those Latter-day Saints who didn’t attend were shamed; those who weren’t LDS didn’t seem to matter.
A pastor friend and I are trying right now to begin an Evangelical Christian “seminary” class beginning next year. With 17 years of teaching experience, including my service as the Bible department head at a large Southern California Christian high school, we have an idea of what we want to do. Thus, we have been doing research to find out exactly what takes place in these seminary classes. The seminary’s principal and five teachers have been very accommodating. One teacher, whom I now consider a friend, even told me that he would have his 180 students get the word out to their non-LDS friends when our class begins in January. “Anything that leads people to Christ is worth promoting,” he told me. I told him I appreciated the offer; we’ll see where that goes.
As I walked into this teacher’s room during his prep period, I was immediately struck by a large poster on his wall listing the scriptural memory verse for the first quarter, Joseph Smith-History 1:15-20 found in the Pearl of Great Price. Specifically, it deals with the all-important First Vision. Let me quote verses 18-20a to give you an idea of Joseph Smith’s account:
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them.
An interesting set of verses to memorize, wouldn’t you think? More than half of my daughter’s friends (probably closer to 80%) are going to be reciting these verses in the upcoming weeks. Do the students realize the take-home message? I find this passage a fascinating choice for memorization.
The instructors are given freedom to teach the assigned material, the same across the board for all seminary classes this year. Doing their best to engage the students, the attitude of these five men (professional teachers who are paid a wage by the LDS Church that is equal to their public school counterparts) reminded me why I remained in Christian education for so long.
The lesson for this particular day covered D&C 1, emphasizing the importance of the LDS leadership. In fact, the journal assigned by one teacher asked, “Look around this room and see the different pictures. Who would you choose to eat dinner with and why?” On one wall were the individual photos of the three men comprising the First Presidency as well as the twelve apostles. In addition, pictures of each of the sixteen prophets, beginning with Joseph Smith, were displayed in the back of the room.
When the students were done with the assignment, they were allowed to share their choices with the class. One boy picked Brigham Young, a man he said was vital for the early growth of the church. Another girl chose Gordon B. Hinckley, an obvious pick for someone who was a child at the time when Hinckley was wrapping up his life. Nobody picked Jesus, even though there were two pictures of Him in the room. This would have been my choice, I suppose, if I had been given the assignment.
An illustration epitomized for me the difference between Mormonism and Christianity. The teacher drew two stick-people figures on the white board and added a tall wall between them. He explained how human beings were represented by the figure on the right. On the left, he said, stood God the Father. The wall was symbolic of the inability for communication to take place between God and man. My brain’s juices were flowing. Certainly this wall must represent sin! (Rom 3:23; 6:23) Then he drew a third person standing on top of the wall, with arrows pointing up and down to the two lower figures. He said that this figure represented our mediator with God. In my mind, I thought, “What a great illustration! Yes, this is Jesus.” After all, 1 Timothy 2:5 says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.”
Unfortunately, this was not the pick of the seminary teacher. Instead, he explained how this figure represented the prophets…embodied today in the current prophet Thomas S. Monson. What was the take-home message? God has given humanity a living prophet to bridge the gap for humans to have access to God the Father.
On a street outside the Ogden temple last month, a Mormon said I was splitting hairs when I said the beliefs of Mormonism and my Christianity contradicted. They are really the same, I was told. “No ma’am,” I replied, “no hairs are split.” This illustration is the difference between truth and error, orthodoxy and heresy.
Seeking mediation…………………………………….
As all regular visitors here know, the falcon is a former Catholic. We had an interesting mediation scheme in the church which I learned about in catechism class when I attended my local Catholic elementary school.
We had “saints” for mediation purposes but most importantly I’d say was the Blessed Virgin Mary. We were taught that we had Mary and the other saints to facilitate our pleas to get our prayers answered. I believe they were referred to as “intercessors”. The way it was suppose to work is that we’d pray to Mary who would then intercede on our behalf with Jesus. Jesus, we were told, had a fond affection for His earthly mother so he’d probably honor her request on our behalf.
Here’s an interesting perspective:
“Catholics do not, as Protestants falsely believe, worship the Blessed Virgin Mary. We honor her who was so intimately connected with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Yes, there is only one Mediator with the Father — Jesus Christ. Only the God-Man Jesus Christ could have redeemed mankind. Nevertheless, we pray to Mary that she may intercede for us with her Divine Son. How often we request the assistance of prayers from our fellow men — how much more powerful are the prayers and intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary!”
http://www.stmichaels.org/why-blessed-virgin.shtml
Catholics also have a peculiar penchant for insisting that Mary was always a Virgin but that’s a whole other topic
Although, after many decades gone from the Catholic church, there’s a part of me that is still Catholic. I can’t shake it. It’s just in there. Most of it is positive regarding morality and godly living. However even considering praying to Mary or a “saint” would not be something that would cross my mind.
It’s sad that these Mormon young people don’t even get an inkling of who Jesus is, what He has done for us, and what it all means. Most of these kids will never meet the prophet of their LDS sect. However they could meet Jesus now and in meeting Him establish a life long relationship that reaches into eternity.
Now while some, including me, will find fault with the Catholic teaching/tradition of using “saints” and Mary as intercessors, at least they make a very important point. That point is this:
“Yes, there is only one Mediator with the Father — Jesus Christ. Only the God-Man Jesus Christ could have redeemed mankind.”
The role of the prophet in Mormonism is to act as a mediator between the Mormon god and the LDS member. In fact, perhaps this will need clarification, isn’t there at least some Mormon folk doctrine which identifies Joseph Smith as giving the Mormon the OK to get into the Celestial Kingdom? Well none-the-less consider this:
“As to this man, Joseph Smith, let us say—
Here is a man who was chosen before he was born, who was numbered with the noble and great in the councils of eternity before the foundations of this world were laid.
Along with Adam and Enoch and Noah and Abraham, he sat in council with the Gods when the plans were made to create an earth whereon the hosts of our Father’s children might dwell.
Under the direction of the Holy One and of Michael, who became the first man, he participated in the creative enterprises of the Father.
In his premortal state he grew in light and knowledge and intelligence, attained a spiritual stature which few could equal, and was then foreordained to preside over the greatest of all gospel dispensations.
Here is a man who was called of God as were the prophets of old.
Born among mortals with the talents and spiritual capacity earned in preexistence, he was ready at the appointed time to perform the work to which he had been foreordained.”
Who said this? Well none other than Bruce McConkie who wrote what was to be the definitive work on Mormon doctrine. To get the full flavor, because this is just a pull quote, and to hear McConkie follow this link.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/04/joseph-smith-the-mighty-prophet-of-the-restoration?lang=eng
I would say that McConkie had a major man-crush on Joseph Smith and to listen to him (McConkie), while he give lip service to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, it’s obvious that with this Mormon sect, it’s all about Joseph Smith.
What a tragedy that the LDS people follow blindly a man whom they consider a “mediator” while all he is, is a false prophet with a false gospel. May God have mercy on their souls.
WOW, now here’s about the longest link I’ve ever copied. But I had to do it this way because I wasn’t able to copy the pertinent quotes. If the reader will follow this link, you will find true-blue Mormonism and where these folks place Joseph Smith.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Pa1mMcw6NNUC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=joseph+smith+stands+at+the+gates+of+the+celestial+kingdom&source=bl&ots=u6hjpnWTxq&sig=d_GDyWeheF4w8JdQZ0Vi_fLLhoU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K-pgVLikCsGcigLp8oHwBw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=joseph%20smith%20stands%20at%20the%20gates%20of%20the%20celestial%20kingdom&f=false
I’ve done a quick read through of the pertinent parts of the D&C and what it basically comes down to is that Joseph Smith holds the “keys” to this new dispensation. So, it’s all about Joseph Smith in this Mormon program.
Eric, I agree that stick figure illustration was something that should alarm Christians . It was meant to teach the place of the Mormon prophet plays in the life of LDS ? Mormons have a prophet that is more resembling of what we might find in the Old Testament and that is why they may say their prophet is a mediator between God and mankind etc . The New Testament reveals the church that Jesus established through His apostles , and unlike in Mormonism there was no prophet at the top of the church , so given that type of arrangement in Mormonism it’s no surprise that a Mormon teacher would draw such a stick figure illustration . Since we are the New Testament era a stick figure like that is really inappropriate , it suggests something is off kilter . But then again Mormonism is not same church Jesus established through His apostles which we see in the N.T.
Mike,
Not to disagree with you, at least too much, but Joseph Smith as the founding prophet is seen as more than an OT Moses. He was said to have the “keys to this dispensation”. Now process what that means. Mormons devalue God and make him just one of many gods, all of whom are former men. Then they elevate Joseph Smith to be almost equal with their god. McConkie talks about Joseph Smith in the council of the gods in the pre-existence. Smith had a place at the table with the gods which I surmise also included Jesus. So when Smith is deemed a “mediator” that’s him hanging with the gods again.
Mormonism is seriously messed-up and it’s no wonder that it has to be accepted on the basis of emotions confirming “truth”.
Falcon, yeah, Catholics, I think, run a fine line between having the saints intercede and worshiping them. However, as rightfully explained, I see no reason to conclude they are not Christian. Mormons, though, do have more than just intercessors, they have people alive on earth who can lift others to godhood. The prophet, even in speaking for their god, possesses the power to exalt folks. They may argue that the prophet is merely spreading the word of god rather than creating it, but such a comment must require the prophet never to be wrong…
…we know how that has worked out.
Falcon, no problem . My point was that this type of drawing ( stick figure ) that Eric observed was something that Christians could not draw . But given the way the Mormon church is set up ( one man at the top as The prophet / mouthpiece of God etc )it isn’t surprising what Eric observed .
We see where Mormon leaders have claimed that their church is the EXACT SAME church that Jesus established through His apostles — now restored . That is a lie . The Mormon church with it’s organization is not Jesus’ church restored , it’s Jesus’ church replaced. ( by a imitation ) .
@MJP
“Falcon, yeah, Catholics, I think, run a fine line between having the saints intercede and worshiping them. However, as rightfully explained, I see no reason to conclude they are not Christian.”
If we are to gather that the saints are intercessors, then where is there a scriptural directive that we should approach saintly intercessors for prayers?
Or should we follow the Biblical principle of approaching the throne of God directly, through Christ Jesus:
“Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Heb. 4:16, NAS)
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
My wife was once an ardent door bell ringer with a gospel that included the doctrine that she was not among the group who had Jesus as their mediator . At the time ( 30 years ago ) there were only about 10,000 left on earth of the 144000 (the Body of Christ ) who had Jesus as their personal mediator . She was not among that group thus Jesus was not her mediator she was told . But
she faithfully followed Jehovah’s prophet , headquartered in Brooklyn N.Y. , and thus spread the gospel she was taught door to door .
This is what latter ( last ) days false prophets do with simple Bible truths , they distort them and make them sound reasonable with clever speech . This was my wife’s life as a Jw. Thankfully God saved her from that false prophet and she found the truth about Jesus ( who He is and what He had done for her on the cross ) . Mormons can be freed from following their leaders as well .
Jesus pre warned everyone to beware of false prophets in the latter days . Mormon leaders are such prophets .
RJ,
Go to the link I provided on my first post and you’ll find the article that provides support from the Scriptures. I’m not endorsing it just pointing you to the rationale that is provided.
I think the thing that I find so troubling about Mormonism, at least as it’s practiced by the LDS/FLDS sects, is that they endorse this idea that Joseph Smith sat in the council of the gods in the pre- existence and that Smith has received the keys to this dispensation. It is likened to the idea that Peter received the Keys in the first century church.
Mormonism is so far out in left field that it is incredible that they’d like to have their religion considered a sect of Christianity. What we have, in essence is Smith worship. After all he’s as much of a god as say the Mormon god of this world.
Once a people strays off the path of basic orthodox Christian beliefs, there’s no holding them back. Is it any wonder that they consider Smith, who they say has the keys to this dispensation, their mediator.
What do you want to bet that this is one of those deep Mormon beliefs that the average Mormon doesn’t have a clue about. It’s that old Mormon belief of milk before meat. Unfortunately for Mormons, this meat is rancid.
Completely off topic, but I saw on one of the morning news shows this morning that the LDS leadership is admitting Smith had 40 wives.
Well since you brought it up………………..I saw this this morning and thought about posting it. So I will now.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/11/mormon-leaders-admit-church-founder-joseph-smith-practiced-polygamy/?intcmp=latestnews
It’s a very interesting article and we can link it to the topic at hand. Can’t we?
the last decade or so has saw pressure being put on the Mormon hierarchy to be more forthright about certain issues in Mormon history , and polygamy is one of those issues . Now they officially state that Smith had dozens of wives . The Mormon people to ask themselves why they are in such a organization . Autocratic religions like Mormonism are not the way , little accountability for those at the top .
RikkiJ
Intercession of the saints was something I had to learn about recently (currently studying Eastern Orthodoxy) Here’s kind of the rundown.
Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. The mediation is connected to the new priesthood he brings, the sacrifice, his death and redemption and it is an eternal and untransferable priesthood since he is still alive. Now all those who are in Christ, who have died with him and offered ourselves as a living sacrifice with him participate in his priesthood, and become mediators and intercessors with him. He invites us to be active participatants in his life – the life of God. He became what we are, so that we might become what he is. The scriptures tell us to pray for one another. Those who have died in Christ are not dead but alive with him and they can still pray. We simply ask them to pray with and for us, but they do not directly directly answer prayer. Just like us praying for a friend. They are still a part of the body which is the church, and Christ is the head. Will post link below to a great podcast that helped me understand this better.
Oops posted twice
Here is the link – http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/namesofjesus/jesus_-_mediator_and_intercessor.
*not sure if this is ok to post links please delete if not!
makeitshine , it seems you’re being led down a slippery slope with the doctrine you mentioned .
I noticed that what you have received from the religion you are in is filled with conjecture and a lot
of assuming — that’s not a good thing when it comes to interpreting the scriptures . For example:
You said concerning those who have died that you ” ask them ” to pray with you etc . That is not
good . Also no persons who have died can be our mediators with Jesus . 1Tim 2:5 is clear there’s
only one person who is qualified and should be approached to mediate , and it is Jesus Himself
ALONE . Adding to that can eventually lead to some very serious error doctrinally .
That’s about all I will say on this . I hope you will put the scriptures first and any tradtion under
them , as your standard for doctrine.
Do you have any comments on Mormonism ? I think we should confine to that issue , though I
realize it is’nt easy to do here . Thanks
makeitshine , I need to say that I am responding to what you have said , it sounds to me like something that is not in line with what the scriptures teach . If I misunderstood what you are
saying then I apologize . Also , while I know just a little of Eastern Orthodox doctrine, and don’t
plan on looking into it further , I won’t say that it is a non Christian faith .
Just curious , were you a Mormon ?
I also forgot to welcome you to this blog . Welcome .
Thanks for the welcome!
I should introduce myself since this is my first time posting. Yes I was Mormon for 18 years (since birth!). Looked into about every branch of Christianity out there and also non Christian faiths. Now studying Eastern Orthodxy for the past 4 years. I dont know why they are so little known in America, but they are the 4 original Greek speaking Sees founded by the Apostles that rejected the roman Popes authority (among many other western ideas). I am attracted to the fact that they have very little official dogma, consider themselves primarily a worshiping community rather than an institution, are self governing and concilliar and have a 2,000 year old hesychastic tradition to keep those power hungry bishops in line (joking) Their focus is mostly on the inner spiritual life.
I currently attend a Lutheran church. I’m fairly open minded about spirituality, and feel like above anything else, faith should be transformitive. I am also very careful about what and who I believe though as I suspect are most former Mormons. I Found this great blog after seeing all the commotion (via facebook) with Kate Kelly and now the polygamy news falcon posted.
As for the drawing above with the prophet on the wall, its like the the LDS church forgets that Jesus is still alive?!? The Resurrection?!?
Hebrews 7:25, Because he lives forever to make intercession on their behalf.
That thing Falcon posted by Bruce McConkie literally makes me feel sick to my stomach to read (as does almost everything Joseph Smith anymore)
My mom is still very Mormon and I feel helpless about it 🙁
@MikeR
Thanks for making my point more clear.
@Makeitshine
You’ll note that nowhere in the early church (read 1st and 2nd century) was Mary looked to as a mediator or intercessor. The cult of King and Queen Mother (Asherah and Yahweh) was a corruption of the Old Testament LORD, and God condemned its worship (Jer. 13:18, NAS). The deities were a son, and the bearer of that son, a mother deity. Some scholars claim that this Babylonian and early Canaanite god paradigm crept into the Catholic church, and thereafter became part of it’s folklore.
As Mike R has correctly pointed out, no scripture explicitly commands or directs Christians or followers of Christ to worship, pray to or call on any person but Jesus the Christ.
It’s that simple. Welcome to Mormon Coffee, makeitshine!
@falcon
Thanks for the link, I just read it. I feel that article is as conclusive as the LDS claim to be the true church. The word description that article uses to describe ‘woman’ is not exclusive to Mary, and is used widely as a term of respect with others. There are so many holes in that article, I just don’t know where to start a good debunk.
http://biblehub.com/greek/gunai_1135.htm
And I’m thrilled that you do not subscribe to that ideology!
@makeitshine
Is there a link to the sees that I can look at? Thanks again for the information. (to moderator – I hope this is still within the bounds of the current discussion)
@RikkiJ
There are four historic centers: Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem.
The Greek speaking countries are not very welcoming to LDS missionaries, from what I hear. Guess it helps when you can read and understand scripture in the original language.
@makeitshine
The article you have posted is very Biblical upto the halfway point. It discusses the sole high priesthood of Jesus (Melchizedek) and does well to point out that it is intransmissible(if that is a word).
Then it does this:
“If he is Mediator, we can be mediators, too.”
Wait, the whole point of the article begins with the ineffectiveness of earthly intercessors who are high priests from the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood – of which very few Gentiles or Jews can be a part of due to lineal exclusion. Now, we can be mediators? How does this suddenly appear? What happened to there is only one mediator?
There is no scriptural backing. Sure, we can be supplicators as per Paul. But here, Paul reverses the role and asks the common saint for prayer rather than being the saintly intercessor. It’s quite the opposite of the teaching of the Orthodox Church. (2 Thess. 3:1, NAS)
Here, we would still be praying for someone, yet our prayers are carried before God by Christ’s work and his person. Nowhere is the prayer of someone equal to or substituted for Christ, or even commanded in any way shape of form that even resembles the veneration and prayer through saints (in the Bible) that the Orthodox or Catholic Churches practice.
The use of James 5:15 is poor simply because it is the unknown saint that is praying for the known saint, not the other way around. Again saintly intercessors in the heavenlies is clearly not what is taught scripturally.
By the way, it also misquotes the Nicene Creed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed (please check it out, FYI)
One more thing, the scriptures in question were written to living saints, which is not applicable to those who have long been dead (and perhaps are in God’s presence).
makeitshine,
You said, “I am also very careful about what and who I believe though as I suspect are most former Mormons.”
And I will respect the care that you are taking with regards to what you believe. Most post-Mormons go atheist/agnostic after the systematic deconstruction of the LDS religion, so let me say that we are pleased to have you as a brother in Christ among us. I must advise you though that in order for our conversation to go well here and to have the best approach towards outreach to Mormons then it is best to be discerning of controversial vs universal theology to discuss on this blog.
For example, I am a former lifelong baptist now Lutheran. After my disaffection I too studied many Christian faiths, two of which were Orthodoxy and the Lutheran Reformation to a great extent. Now there are things that I can bring up here (and I would be welcome to bring them up on topic) that if I brought them up we would be doing more debating than constructive analysis of Mormonism.
Mere Christianity is going to be the status quo here, but that does not mean that our differences from so-called evangelicals are irrelevant; very far from that being the case at all. But we understand that MRM is an evangelical school yard and we respect their majority representation here. It may help to keep in mind at all times that this blog is not about you as an orthodox and me as a lutheran and bill mckeever is not, it’s about the Holy Trinity and Mormons. We all bring our own flavor to the conversation without trying to be distracting from the Trinity and Mormonism. At least that has been my take and it has worked for me so far.
I look forward to chatting with you soon, and please continue to add to the conversation.
@ RikkiJ thank you, I will research this more, always learning! its a constant struggle de-mormonizing the brain!
I do have questions – so yes the old earthly priesthood being done away with. Now we have the new priesthood being the one Christ brings, he is THE high priest. But then the Bible also says he has made US kings and priests.
1 peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Rev. 1:5 …To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
What does it mean for us that we are now priests also, what is our role? Just to die with Christ?
Timothy 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
Does this mean we participate in his one mediation or is that different from dying with him? (not that we are individual mediators or that we mediate for anyone else)
But relating this all to the post, then we should no longer need a prophet because we can now approach God ourselves through Christ because the “wall” of sin and death has been destroyed? So mormons are replacing our High Priest with the modern prophet and creating a new “wall”.
@MistakenTestimony – Thank you. I didn’t include this in my intro but I too was bordering on agnosticism for about 8 years after mormonism, and began questioning the Bible and all religion in general. My dad and other siblings have all become agnostic/atheist and I do blame mormonism at least partially for that. I hope they will at least start seeking again, but it doesn’t look good yet 🙁
The issue I am struggling with now, is the inability to make any decisions about my faith. I want to get baptized (either Lutheran or Orthodox), but I can’t seem to get there because I’m constantly analyzing everything and refuse to make any decisions on what to believe on certain subjects because I dont want to be led astray. I dont know if its Satan confusing me or God is wanting me to look deeper, and though I pray to be led to truth, I refuse to ask “Which Church should I join” ….we know where that leads haha. I will save the more doctrinal questions for a discussion forum though (looking for one to join). I would like to have conversations with people who know Luther, Orthodoxy and Mormonism all 3 so most likely I will just be lurking here, and not posting much.
to whom it may concern,
I think it would be good to point out that there was only one High Priest at a time. There were many priests but only the High Priest was allowed to enter into the inner room where the presence of God resided and make intercession for the people. So we cannot do the job of the high priest nor can anyone else. Since Yeshua/Jesus is the High Priest forever in the order of Malcizedick he is the one who interceeds on our behalf.
@cattyjane – thanks that helps!
makeitshine , I’ll briefly comment by encouraging you to consider in simple faith taking Jesus at His invitation in Matt 11:28 ” Come unto Me ” . A personal encounter with the Lord Jesus is at the very heart of Christian faith , so on bended knee talk to Him , praise Him for who He is and what he has done . This is the personal relationship that we can have with Jesus . Remember it’s all about Him , not a church , or some prophet . Come directly to Him , then begin to learn about Him in the Bible ( Jn 14:6 ;1Cor1:9 )you will be directed where to fellowship / be baptized . Give it time.
My wife and I will be praying for you .
Take care .
makeitshine,
you said, “The issue I am struggling with now, is the inability to make any decisions about my faith. I want to get baptized (either Lutheran or Orthodox), but I can’t seem to get there because I’m constantly analyzing everything and refuse to make any decisions on what to believe on certain subjects because I dont want to be led astray.”
First of all, there is no such thing as a “Lutheran” baptism or an “Orthodox” baptism, it is all one baptism and resurrection into Christ. Lutherans and Orthodox do not regard LDS baptisms as valid because of one reason alone: the Trinity. The LDS baptize people into a tritheistic godhead that doesn’t even exist. Orthodox receive baptisms performed by Lutherans, and Lutherans receive baptisms performed by Orthodox. It is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, not my faith or their faith.
You said, “I dont know if its Satan confusing me or God is wanting me to look deeper, and though I pray to be led to truth, I refuse to ask “Which Church should I join””
There are not many churches, there is only one Church, one bride and body of Christ. Truth is found in God alone, and God is where His Church is. Lutheran and Orthodox are both valid members of the one body of Christ. However, Orthodox (along with papists) claim that they are the one true church, so Orthodox will only be certain that the Church exists within one of the autocephalous churches in communion with Constantinople. You will need to figure out for yourself if you believe that to be the case or not.
I would also like to encourage you, if you have been listening to Ancient Faith Radio, to also listen to Pirate Christian Radio for the sola scriptura preaching of the Conservative Reformation. Also, check out the book “Augsburg and Constantinople” by George Mastrantonis of blessed memory. It is about the ecumenical exchange between the Lutheran theologians of the 16th century with the Patriarch of Constantinople of that era. Also, you’ll need to square away with yourself what role does so-called holy tradition play in the church. Doctrines are developed and expanded without any scriptural basis in Orthodoxy. That being said, I have no problem embracing my Orthodox brothers as true members of the one body of Christ.
@makeitshine
Thank you for your positive comments. As MistakenTestimony has said, this forum is open. However, we tend to be also be open about our views.
In terms of the Lutheran churches in the USA (Canada included), there has been a formal departure from orthodoxy with the recognition of same-sex unions. This includes the endorsement of priests who are sexually active in same-sex relationships. You can read a summary here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Lutheranism
In terms of Orthodox religious beliefs, the major departures from the early church are the veneration and intercession through saintly ‘beings’.
@Mistaken Testimony
If what I have quoted above is true, and the Lutheran Church has made theological accommodations to recognize same-sex unions, this is at odds with the primitive church and conservative Christianity.
@makeitshine
Being baptized is a recognition of your salvation experience. However, joining a church that doesn’t hold to the core doctrine as taught by Jesus (Matt. 19:5, NAS) may likely fall outside the bounds of the ‘churches of Christ’ (Rom. 16:16; 1 Thess. 2:14 ESV).
You will have through proper scriptural study, determine these truths. Seeking the Spirit’s guidance will help.
@malkeitshine
You remind me alot of myself. You are a seeker and that is great! Just make sure everything lines up with scripture. You will not find a church or religion that lines up perfectly with scripture because men love their traditions! I have done a lot of research in the last two years and have a few people that i skype with and discuss with. If you have questions or just want to bump ideas off someone my email is [email protected].
@RikkiJ – I am currently going to an LCMS church, I don’t believe they allow homosexual or women priests, but I wonder, if these changes are happeneing in the other lutheran churches, who is to say they wont also come here eventually or to any other prodestant denomination. This scares me. I am not sure how prodestant churches “work” as far as who decides what but I will research this more.
– I dont much of my own opinion on intercession of saints, but I will point out that is not part of Orthodox Doctine, its a practice. I don’t think they allow adding or changing of doctrine as the Catholics I believe do.
Ok I guess we are getting off topic now sorry!!
RikkiJ,
You said, “In terms of the Lutheran churches in the USA (Canada included), there has been a formal departure from orthodoxy with the recognition of same-sex unions.”
That statement is rather too all encompassing to be true. It is tantamount to saying likewise “the Presbyterian churches in the USA” or “the Anglican churches in the USA” which is plainly put not the case for all three or really any family of churches. It would, however, be true to say “In terms of some of the Lutheran/Presbyterian/Anglican churches in the USA (Canada included).”
For example, Bill McKeever is a regular guest on the radio program Issues, Etc. , which is a Confessional Lutheran program, which is something he would never do if all “the Lutheran churches” believed in abortion and gay marriage. With regards to Lutherans in particular, the ELCA is the liberal church body in North America, but the dozens of other actually confessional Lutheran churches have come out and said that the ELCA is not even a Christian church.
In general there needs to be an understanding of the difference between “Mainline” versus “Evangelical” church bodies, which is nothing new and would only require some basic research. A good list of all church bodies in the U.S. can be found at thearda.com, which is a 2010 report of religion in the U.S. They label bodies such as Mainline Protestant, Evangelical Protestant, Black Protestant, etc. and can be grouped according to church family such as Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. To say that “the Lutheran churches in the USA” are theologically and socially liberal is simply not true and would require only a cursory study to see that as such.
makeitshine,
Yes, we are most certainly getting off topic when you began to speak of the invocation of saints. Jaxi, I believe, was another Orthodox who would post at this site but she was much more discerning with her conversational input. I would not have known she was Orthodox had she not said so.
You said, “I don’t believe they allow homosexual or women priests, but I wonder, if these changes are happeneing in the other lutheran churches,”
No, the LCMS does not allow for homosexual or women or even uncalled pastors. And the LCMS does not have priests, they have pastors. No, these changes are not happening in other Lutheran churches. Do a study of the history of the ELCA, which has become historically a catch-all for all liberal church bodies. If you say that you have been a member for years you should know this from your catechism, which makes me wonder about you. But you have stated that you have not been baptized either and have been studying Christianity for 4 years which leads me to believe that you have been church hopping rather than getting grounded in your own convictions.
As you stated, perhaps you are looking for a theological forum to discuss theological issues that you want to discuss but I don’t believe that this is that channel. Good luck with finding that in the sincerest way, but please stay on subject here if you would still like to participate. Otherwise your raising of controversial topics might certainly put your motives as suspect, please keep that in mind, at least with myself if not others.
@MistakenTestimony
Thank you for correcting me. I did say“If what I have quoted above is true”. I surmised there would be evangelical bodies that may differ from the other denominations. Thank you for pointing that out.
@malkeishine
What caused you to leave LDS? While you were LDS did you feel that the prophets made intercession for you to God?
What i find curious about this entire article is that its obvious the LDS church tries to combine the role of Prophet and Priest. However they have two very different roles. I already explained the High Priest role which is different from a regular Levitical priestly role. The other priests would do things like burn offerings, blessings etc. A prophet is more like a teacher. He receives a message from God and delivers it to the people. One of the requirements of a prophet was that they be able to see into the future. In fact this was one way a prophet was tested to see if he was a true prophet. Mostly a prophet set the standard for the community as far as how they were to live their lives. A prophet had to live according to Gods holy standard. They were skilled in their understanding of the scriptures and were not yes men. Kings listened to prophets because of their honesty to tell the truth when others would lie in order to tell the king what he wanted to hear. The book of Daniel is a great book to read to see what the role of a Prophet is. Although its debated if he was a prophet or not so its often included as a text in the writings rather than in prophets, but i digress.
RikkiJ,
No prob, my tone was loving I hope you caught that.
makeitshine,
I hope I’m not perceived as being mean. For the record you are asking a good question that is relevant. However, my only qualm is that the ensuing conversation would not help the conversation which is to bring a knowledge of Jesus to an LDS audience. I do not agree with everything that is said here, but neither do I interject with my own theological disagreements either, unless what was said was blatantly heretical. By what you have said I can say that you are neither orthodox nor lutheran, and considering that you have been studying Christianity for 4 years and have not been baptized and are still concerned about finding “truth,” I’m not entirely sure that you are Christian either, with all due respect. I’m curious, what questions, if any, do you have about the differences between Christianity and Mormonism. Any questions that have been on your mind that have not been asked yet?
MistakenTest
Are you serious? If your referring to christianity as a denomination than i guess you can say Makeitshine hasnt completed his membership requirements. If your speaking in terms of God seeing him as one of Israel than you may want o rethink your statement.
Isaiah 56 speaks about the foreigners or gentiles being welcome at the alter of the Lord and not through Mikveh or baptism but through obedience. Jesus/Yeshua calls us to drink of him because he is living water. He is the baptism/mikvah/cleansing that we need. Earthly waters do not wash the inside but only the outside. Messiah cleanses our minds and hearts. He prepares us for when we stand before the Almighty. He has stated that he trusts in the Messiah. We all walk a road to find truth. Hes on the right path and i think its great that he is examining the evidence.
cattyjane,
+Struggling with agnosticism for 8 years
+Studying Christianity for 4 years
+Has not joined any Church
+Doesn’t know the basics of a church he has been attending
+Believes he will be led astray from the truth if he does not find the one true church which is his reason for not getting baptized yet
His getting baptized was only part of my reasoning when I said, not that he was not a Christian, but “I’m not entirely sure that you are Christian either.”
Yeah, with those statements to go on, I am not entirely sure that he is a Christian. All he has to do is respond to my concern. And why so defensive? Have you gotten away from your Judaism and Hebrew Roots theology that was so important to you months ago and come back to where you were before after Mormonism? When you were saying that Christ is most certainly not in the OT, and Christians were misreading those prophetic passages? For a second time? Where are you right now cattyjane, with all due respect?
I was asking him a question out of genuine concern, and everyone saw it. Why so defensive? And what you said (“If your referring to christianity as a denomination than i guess you can say Makeitshine hasnt completed his membership requirements. If your speaking in terms of God seeing him as one of Israel than you may want o rethink your statement. Isaiah 56 speaks about the foreigners or gentiles being welcome at the alter of the Lord and not through Mikveh or baptism but through obedience.”) makes no sense. Have you seen his obedience first-hand? Why are you so quick to say that he has in fact been obedient? Presumptuous much? I raised a potential concern, you raised an absolute affirmative.
Nothing magical happens by way of baptism. It is an important step, sure, but one is not more or less saved based on baptism. Its only important in that it is a public declaration of belief, but does nothing in and of itself in salvation
Which Christian denomination is correct is also a meaningless question. The only thing that matters is the how the church defines the identity of God/Jesus. If they have that correct, there is room for disagreement on the finer points. Again, choice of church is an important matter, for we must all find one in which we are comfortable and have opportunity to grow in Christ. The specific church is a choice each individual must decide upon, else we end up divided.
As long as we are all in Christ, all is OK. Christ, by the way, is the sole mediator between God and man, and can do so because he, as God, came to become man. He was not merely a god, or the son of god, or a man who became a god– he is the very God in heaven, our Father, who sent his spirit upon us so that we may know him after he returned to heaven. (That pesky Trinity thing…)
I’m a female by the way
@cattyjane – when I was maybe 10. We were in sacrament meeting and they were talking about families being together forever through sealing. I remember thinking I did not like the idea that God would create this world with all these people in it most of which were not Mormon, and only those sealed would be together in heaven. That did not sit well with me. I just kind of went with the flow until I was 18 or so and we learned about Joseph Smith getting the revelation about selling the BOM to Canada. I just remember thinking that was off – looking into a hat for revelation. I do have a lot of other things, but that would be for a private convo or personal blog. That was probably the last time I went to church for I think around 8 years. I didnt think too much of the prophet and really had no understanding of the “Priesthood “outside of Mormonism. I had a pretty easy exit initially because so many kids my age were going off to college. I kind of slipped out the back door. I started going back to the Mormon church after my agnostic stint because it was all I knew, but I had too many issues with it to continue, and that is when I started studying Christianity. I feel terrible for many of my friends from childhood who are just now leaving the church, even for me learning the truth about it, after being out for so long was really hard emotionally I can’t imagine what it is like for them as lifelong members. I feel like sometimes its trying to suck me back in somehow too even which I do not like!
@MistakenTestimony – I will have many more questions I’m sure as they are popping up daily.
With my studying Christianity I now do believe that Christ is the truth himself, so yes I am a Christian, that much I can say, just where to go from here because I feel I am now ready to be baptized. I am also interested in being transformed, as I said before I feel faith should be transformitive. I do not want to be the person that I have been. I don’t mean like with external rituals or anything like that, but more through prayer, fasting and also want a community of to do this with that will help to keep me on track.
I am not catechized, and have been going to the Lutheran church for maybe a year or so here and there because its my husbands church and he wanted to start going again. (I was not going to any church during the initial part of my studying) I only know the very basics of Lutheranism so far. I do have questions about it, but those are not for here. Husband wants me to be baptized and now I want to, but I am still looking into certain issues (sola scritptura, apostolic succession, Holy Tradition vs tradition of men etc). I dont know if I can be baptized for now, and not commune yet, but thats something I will need to talk to our pastor about.
I am starting to get depressed/stressed about this and normally I am a very happy person so this is not good.
@MJP – Thank you, these are the answers I need to hear. I feel like I know this deep down, but am a little lost at the moment despite.
I will continue in my journey and try not to get discouraged.
makeitshine,
I have never been LDS, but I do imagine it is difficult to trust after you leave. We’ve heard that quite a bit around here from those who have left the LDS program.
The questions you pose seem perfectly natural coming from such a system that has its very genesis, supposedly, in Smith’s prayer of which church is correct and the heavy emphasis on baptism.
Baptism, though, in Christianity, does not save, and I honestly don’t think the specific church matters as long as they believe in Christ. The rest of correct belief generally flows from that. I encourage you, like others here, to focus on Jesus. Jesus will transform you as you accept him into your life. Its not always easy, though, and there will be things that will trip you up in life or throw you off. He tells us he will make us new creatures after our spiritual rebirth in him. We are also told that life in Christ is a journey and we are to be patient.
I don’t know the requirements for baptism in the Lutheran church, but it likely has something to do with acknowledging your place within the Lutheran church body. They may put more of a spiritual slant on it, but they also probably believe fully that Jesus saves not the act of baptism. The other issues you bring up are also important, and can be quite in depth. In short, trust Christ. You are able to read the Bible yourself, and to interpret it and pray about it on your own; a wonderful thing indeed. You don’t need someone with more ‘authority’ to tell you about it, though it helps to have those who are more ‘mature’ in Christ to help you through it if you have questions.
And this is where understanding the role of Christ as mediator is key: Christ is our everything. He is our savior, our mediator, our defender. And we have direct access to him. We don’t need a prophet to tell us certain rules or revelations. Its all right there for us to know in the Bible and through direct prayer with him. ‘Church’ is just a way to fellowship with others who also believe so that we stay focused and continue to grow.
I don’t want to steer you in one way or another. The Lutheran church is generally a good church, as far as can tell. Like all denominations, there is wide variety in them, as far as I know. You infer your husband is a member, and that is important, too.
Keep on keepin’ on.
Makeitshine,
You said, “I am starting to get depressed/stressed about this and normally I am a very happy person so this is not good.”
It’s not that big of a deal. Seriously. If your husband is trying to get back in church support him. Fulfill your vocation of spouse to the best of your ability. It doesn’t matter what church he goes to so long as they are theologically conservative and hold to the Trinity, GO WITH YOUR HUSBAND! Makeitshine, if in 5 years you study more and learn that Orthodoxy is the closest to right then you can switch then. Same for Baptist or any type of church. For that you have time on your side. But right now, you should support your husband so you can support each other.
And stop thinking in absolutes of “one true church.” There is only one true church and you are talking to them. I am. RikkiJ is. Falcon is. Bill and Eric are. Welcome, here we are.you have time to nail down the specifics and you and your husband can share that adventure together. Right now, just be still and learn to rest in Chrsit, begin to and continue to receive his gifts. He came to serve, so let him serve you in your weakness.
Make it shine,
Feel free to write me and ask some questions, I’m always happy to help. Rick
Make it shine,
It might help if you had an email address, LOL.
[email protected]
I’m Rick, shelli is my wife.
MakeItShine,
You said, “I would like to have conversations with people who know Luther, Orthodoxy and Mormonism all 3”
I don’t ever give out my email address, but for you and your situation I would make an exception. I have studied Mormonism since ’98, am an active member of and LCMS congregation studying the Augsburg Confession in German and Latin, and have studied Orthodoxy for the past few years. I know a lot of people are throwing their emails out there in order to lovingly guide you, and I applaud them for that and support them in that, but considering our common situations and your request, if you reply back that you would want to chat about these matters with me as someone with those interests please write back that you would be interested in my email address and I will provide it to you.
I wish you and your husband the best. God bless.
Makeitshine
Sounds like you and MJP get along well. I think you will find some answers there. Sorry I didn’t know you were a girl. I apologize. Don’t get sucked back in to LDS. Their “priesthood” is a fraud and their temple doesn’t even come close to what the true temple was. The temple was a way for us to be made right before God. It had nothing to do with family. When I met with the Bishop to have my membership officially removed from the church I explained all of my reasons why I was leaving and these were some of the issues I brought up. He didn’t have any answers for them. The LDS religion is a made up spin off from Masonry. It leads people in one direction and it isn’t toward God.
MistakenTestimony
Cute. In regards to your most recent post.
I wasn’t trying to jump on you. It just sounded like you were telling her that she had to be baptized in order to have a relationship with the creator. I was showing you Isaiah 56 in order to show you that what God values is obedience. The washing and cleansing that we need now is of the heart and mind etc. Anyways, I don’t care. Say what you want.
I am not where I was when I left LDS. I don’t even know why you would say that. When I left LDS I didn’t know anything about scripture. I didn’t even know where to begin to find out the truth. Seeking didn’t hurt me tho. I would rather someone seek for 10 years of their life and study scripture backwards and forwards before committing to faith, than to walk an aisle, get baptized and blindly follow whatever the mouth at the front of the building says. Most of those Christian converts are just as lost as the LDS.
I don’t care if you want to say that I am lost or that I am not a Christian. Its not for you to decide if I have an inheritance in the world to come or not. However,on this earth you are free to make whatever assessment you want to about me. I do not claim Hebrew roots or Messianic. I do not attend either one of those churches or any christian churches for that matter. As for Jesus (as you call him) being the Messiah, yes that is what I believe due to some things that my friend Zach has shown me about the messiah having to arrive before the destruction of the second temple and a few other things that I was struggling with. You say “for the second time” like its a bad thing. Would it have been better for me to have closed my mind when I started converting to Judaism and close out all of my friends who are messianic or christian? That would mean that I was assuming I had all the answers. I don’t believe that I know everything. There are things that I am absolutely sure of and there are things that I have evidence enough to hope in but I don’t have the answers to everything. Anyone who claims to have all the answers and never humbles themselves to answer with an “I don’t know” is a liar.
I have faith to know that God will lead me on the right path as long and my true intent is to worship Him. Its when I seek after my own desires that I will land in a bad place.
@makeitshine
You’ll find a lot of kind and caring people on this forum, who are interested in bringing the Biblical Christ to you. Don’t get discouraged! And certainly a new person on the forum garners some attention.
What I recommend, is that you take some time and write down your objections to Christianity (your biggest doubts), and then perhaps ask those who have volunteered to help with those questions. Every one has their own style, but we are all seeking the truth (Jesus the Christ)for you.
The moderators here are also a great source of information.
@MistakenTestimony
Your tone is great! Don’t fret it!
@makeitshine
http://www.lcms.org/faqs/lcmsviews#family
I checked the Missouri Synod (LCMS) and I believe their doctrine on same-sex unions in biblical. Apologies for grouping them with other liberal Lutherans.