One of the most remarkable things about the Mormon religion is how its leaders can so badly misinterpret the basic meaning of certain words. Take “gift,” for example. When I think of a “gift,” I think of something given to another at no obligation, even though there still is a cost attached. The payment, however, is made by the giver, not by the receiver. When someone tells me he is picking up the tab for lunch, I receive the lunch gratefully. Yet while it is free to me, the meal cost someone money.
In the back of the December 2014 Ensign is an article titled “Sharing the Gift.” It starts off this way:
“The greatest gift Heavenly Father offers us is eternal life—our life eternally joined with His, living the kind of life He lives (see D&C 14:7). But giving that gift required giving us His Only Begotten Son.” (p. 74)
The line is followed by a quotation of John 3:16, probably the most popular verse used by Evangelical Christians to succinctly explain the Christian gospel. A colorful 4-page cardboard insert titled “He is the Gift” was included in the mailing of this particular issue that features a photograph portraying Joseph, Mary, and the baby Jesus on the front along with a quote from the first part of John 3:16. Nine “pass-along (evangelism) cards” with perforations make up the third and fourth pages. The back of each card reads: “Discover The Gift. Embrace The Gift. #ShareTheGift.” A new LDS website “christmas.mormon.org” is also advertised.
A few years ago Bill McKeever and I produced a December 26th podcast titled “Did You Earn Your Gifts?” I asked Bill what he had done on Christmas. Here was his story: After his family opened presents on Christmas, he said he took all his gifts to his office and scanned in the barcodes with a phone app to find out how much everything cost. He then went back to the living room and distributed cash to everyone—wife, son, daughters, and grandchildren—to repay their generosity. But he wasn’t done. He took out a folder with itemized receipts and gave bills to each member of his family to whom he had given gifts. “They must earn what they were given,” he said. “After all, fair is fair.”
It was done tongue in cheek, but the point was made. Is it possible for a “gift” to come with a price tag? In Mormonism, it does. Consider, for example, D&C 14:7 as quoted in the Ensign article:
“And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.”
What a horrible verse to use in an article titled “Sharing the Gift”! Set up in an “If/Then” construction, this says a person must first keep God’s commandments and even “endure to the end” before it’s possible to receive the gift of eternal life. To use Bill’s illustration, it says, “Sonny, return your present until you’ve paid Grandpa the very last farthing.”
There is nobody who can do everything that the Mormon leadership says must be accomplished. After all, who can keep all the commandments? And is it even possible to “endure to the end”?
Christianity offers so much more. With nothing of worth brought to the table, the sinner comes to Christ bare and naked. Eternal life is available only through God’s grace and not through any good thing that could possibly be accomplished. As Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” I can’t tell you how many times I have heard the Mormon say my interpretation minimizes good works. Au contraire. When a sinner understands his or her situation and is then bestowed with a gift that could never be earned—say, in human terms, $10 million—the natural reaction is to want to do good works (Eph. 2:10). Indeed, as 1 John 4:19 puts it, “We love because He first loved us.”
This season is really all about the Christ child and the gift offered to us, not about what we can do to repay the Savior. As Matthew 1:21 puts it, “She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Forgiveness is therefore possible! I cannot tell you how grateful I am that I have Discovered the Gift and indeed Embrace the Gift. And to my Latter-day Saint friends, family, neighbors, and many acquaintances, I hope to ShareTheGift. Great presents come in small packages, even in as small as a manger.
Amen, Eric. Thank you for this beautiful post you have shared with us this Christmas.
Pardon, justification, acceptance … these I believe are longed for by many of my friends and family. Before God found me I know that I lived under a heavy burden. A guilt that I felt even though others thought well of me; they did not think of me as a bad person. And yet on the inside I really struggled to view myself as others viewed me. For a long time I thought by trying really hard to be good enough I would then feel better about myself. And if I felt good about myself, it would mean I must be good, and deserving to be forgiven. I look back at that time and those weren’t the best years.
But God had other plans for me. He patiently pursued me for years with the message of his grace (1 Cor 1:18); his gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus (John chapter 6). I had not been looking for this message, was not particularly welcoming of it. But God had loved me before I existed (Eph 1:3-7), and he predestined that I would come to know him, because in some way I had always belonged to him.
My name above links to a page which invites the reader to receive God’s gift. (The page is based on a famous booklet a dear friend once shared with me.) This gift is the why of that first Christmas. And 2,000 years later, it still is.
@Brian
Glad you finally found some peace. 🙂
catty, you can too : Jn 14:27 . His invitation is still open – Matt 11:28 . He desires to hear from you.
We must remember that Mormonism, as practiced by the LDS sect, is a two level salvation program. Level one is what everyone who has ever lived receives. It’s a universal salvation with no real downside. Then there is the LDS second level system salvation. That’s the one that needs to be earned if the adherent to the LDS program is going to grasp the brass ring. This second salvation is earned by doing everything that is required by the “one true church”. Then the LDS member can get into the Celestial Kingdom and achieve godhood.
Is any of this Biblical? Of course not! But then whether or not something is Biblical is of little concern to the LDS folks. After all, the Bible is corrupted in their view; having been copied so many times many precious truths were left out.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is where the LDS prophets come in and tell the commoners what they have to do to get to the top rung. There is this idea of LDS grace which means that after you do all you can do Jesus is suppose to step in and pay the remainder of the bill. Unfortunately, only a few LDS members ever know if they’ve done enough. The fortunate few get to go through a special ritual proclaiming them with the “in” crowd. They’ve done enough, supposedly.
Having bought into this false gospel and having dismissed the Bible as the authoritative source in laying out God’s plan for salvation, the rank-and-file Mormon just slaves away hoping maybe, just maybe they’ve done enough to “deserve” grace.
The idea of the Christian gospel is, as the apostle Paul writes, “foolish” to people like these. They just can’t imagine being granted eternal life based on faith alone; a true gift from a loving and merciful God.
@Eric
Just based on the video alone, I’m not seeing any difference between it and Christianity.
http://www.mormon.org/christmas
Same with this video. This speaks Christianity to me. http://youtu.be/_S3TI4bYerU
You have to admit. They have some powerful videos. I think if Mormonism would just leave it at this and not add all the Temple stuff they would fit right into the Christian box.
catty, you’re just now realizing that the Mormon church has a world class P.R. Dept .? How else did you think they could so easily appear as just another Christian church in the neighborhood ?
Good counterfeits are just that — they’re good .
cattyjane,
I’d have to concur with Mike here. One of the techniques of the modern LDS church is to use the same vocabulary as Christianity, but not reveal their definitions. The LDS definitions are not even close to that of orthodox Christianity.
How many LDS folks think that they are worshiping the same God as the God of the Bible. How many don’t realize that one of their former prophets (Gordon B. Hinckley) said that the Jesus of Mormonism is NOT the Jesus of Biblical Christianity.
When I got into this, the stock and trade of Mormonism, as I saw it, was blatant dishonesty. They are dishonest in both omission and commission.
You were part of the program and have most recently had an opportunity to take a fresh look at the organization, it’s history and practices and realize what their techniques are all about.
Yes, heretical theological cults lead with the superficial similarities with Christianity in order to get their foot in the door. But behind every superficial point of agreement has a ton of baggage behind it that are blasphemies against the orthodox faith handed to the Apostles by Christ and believed by the church for two-thousand years. This is their best tactic to sneak in as ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing to destroy the flock; deceptive sophistry from within is far more damaging than a full-on attack from without. These types of theological cults include LDS, cattyjane’s religion, JWs, etc.
MistTest,
I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being.
Falcon,
Yes i understand the process the church works under. There are good people in every religion. I think the church has good intentions with charity and family values. I think they are sincere. I agree the Mormon doctrine with temple works and multiple gods is not true. But most of the members in the church are just trying to do the best they can with what they know. Most are good people who are trying to serve God and contribute to healing a broken world.
Speaking of videos (and related to the subject),
Speaking of videos, this one is an oldie but a goodie. Speaking of paying for your gifts:
https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2007-01-0005-the-mediator?lang=eng
I remember the first time I saw this, I thought, “wow, they’re finally getting it right” up until about the last minute when it was “NO! NO! NO! Oh, the humanity!!”
catty, what you said about the Mormon people is something I’ve been saying for years . Most are decent sincere persons who want to follow God . But sadly they have been detoured by men who have attempted to mimic Jesus’ true apostles and as a result have misled sincere people to follow them .
That’s why Jesus’ warning in Matt 24:11 about what to beware of in the latter days is so important to heed . False prophets can be polite, well dressed individuals who talk a lot about living a moral lifestyle and even ” following Jesus ” . Mormons don’t seem to understand that fact . They feel that false prophets in our day all look and act like a Brian David Mitchell ( the prophet who kidnapped Elizebeth Smart a few years ago ) .
the problem is’nt rank and file Mormons , the problem is the men who lead the rank and file .
Mormonism is not the answer , and no professional grade video productions can alter that fact .
Thank the Lord for ministries like MRM which provide people with the other side of the story about Mormonism , the side which the Mormon produced video’s and plays , articles for the public are not quick to reveal . Eric’s article is one example of providing people with looking beneath Mormon terms to see if the definitions line up with what the scripture teach .
Thanks Eric .
@Tommeltj
I watched the video. What was the issue? Was it when Jesus said that he would be the boys creditor? Doesnt new test say, my yoke is easy and my burden is light? It doesnt say we wont have a burden. Just a question.
Catty Jane, the problem with what Packer says is this:
The mediator turned then to the debtor. “If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?”
“Oh yes, yes,” cried the debtor. “You save me from prison and show mercy to me.”
All that has happened is the mediator becomes the debtor’s new creditor. This debtor owes him a debt that can never be paid. (If this debtor couldn’t pay the previous creditor, what makes anyone think he can do better just by having another chance?) Instead of gaining a new creditor, what really is needed is a redeemer who forgives the debt and tears up the paper work. That, my friend, is what a relationship with Jesus Christ–the true Redeemer–is all about!
Thanks for the compliments Brian and Mike. Merry Christmas.
@Eric
When you put it in an analogy like that I understand what you are saying. I can see how if he is just gaining a new creditor how the debt is still not paid. So he is still not in the clear until he repays the new creditor. That makes sense. But what do you do with the verse that says my yoke is easy and my burden is light? Doesn’t that still imply that there is some work on our part?
@cattyjane
Jesus (or as some call him – Yeshua) is referring to his path or his burden (Jer. 6:16, ESV). Those who need to come to him are those who labor, and are heavy laden – here you can relate the heavy burden of keeping all the commandments(and repenting of all your sin according to LDS prophets) to get into Celestial Glory.
Jesus says come to him, to those who labor. If you can look at it in that way. His path is to just believe, not to work (John 6:29, ESV) to receive his salvation by one’s faith in Him.
To reiterate what MRM has said – If you work for your salvation in any way, you put God in your debt.
God provides a way when we cannot and because we cannot not because we can.
“God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us…” (Rom. 5:8, ESV)
Christ died for the ungodly, not for those who chose to obey the commandments. 🙂 It’s the sick who need a physician not those who are well. (Mark 2:17)
“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness…” (Romans 4:4-5, KJV)
I don’t think anyone here is coming out in favor of sin or commandment breaking.
Our orientation is to Christ Jesus Our Lord and what He did for us on the cross. Because of our sin nature we are in a hopeless condition, as the apostle Paul pointed out. He said something like, “Wicked man that I am. Who will save me from this body of sin and death.” He was caught in a trap of wanting to do good, but frequently coming up short. The solution to his problem was the free gift of God which is salvation through faith in Christ. He found that the Spirit is a better way to go than trying to keep rules.
It’s a sad thing when people don’t get the gift of salvation in its proper context. Paul addressed that by telling his readers that he was in pain for them because they started (were saved) by the Spirit and now they were trying to be perfected by the flesh.
We see this in churches that are legalistic. They come up with all sorts of rules and prohibitions that don’t do anything but lay a heavy burden on those who are supposedly saved. A lot of really weird sin begins to happen in environments that are suppressive. It’s not the way to live out faith in Christ. But, like I’ve said previously, some people have a low tolerance for ambiguity and need a heavy structure and a lot of guidance.
I talked one time to a guy who had gone through the “Teen Challenge” program for those who face various addictions. He said it was very difficult turning his life around and the heavily structured program was of help to him.
The problem, I’ve found with Boot Camp type programs though, is that once the structure is removed, the person goes right back to their former habits. I’m not saying this in regards to Teen Challenge which has a very low restiveness record.
Oh brother. The word is “recidivism”. Spell check failed me!
It means to fall back into the former way of life. It’s used in conjunction with prison inmates and those who have been through various recovery programs.
I believe the term in church circles is , “back slide”. That’s an interesting concept isn’t it? Does it mean that someone was never saved, was saved but it didn’t take, gave up believing i.e. lost their faith, or is what is called a “carnal” Christian, they believe but don’t act like they’re saved.
Well this opens up all sorts of theological questions, doesn’t it?
Bottom line though is that salvation is a free gift offered by a loving and merciful God to a sinful, wretched people who are without hope if it weren’t for God’s plan to rescue us.
Catty, what do we have to do, and what does it gain us?
MJP,
I’m not breaking any news here but cattyjane has told us (on the thread dealing with the worship of Joseph Smith) that she does not believe that Jesus is of one substance with the father. The “Messiah” is likened to a prophet like Moses.She has previously told us that she’s not into the NT. So process that and think about what you’ve asked her.
She’s answered the question. Here’s the answer. What we are to do to merit eternal life is keep the ten commandments and do good works. Then we stand before the Messiah and He judges whether or not we are worthy to enter heaven. Salvation is based on behavior; both moral and charitable acts.
Now to be fair, she also says that her perspectives are a work (no pun intended) in progress subject to change.
So cattyjane is not one who subscribes to orthodox Christian beliefs. There’s your answer.
Falcon, I know, but I’d love to see her answer these specific questions. What types of good works and for what purpose? What if we don’t do some, but do others? How does one define a good work?
Why do I ask? Because I hope it generates thought as to the implications of her position. What more can we do than to honor God with all our being and all our heart? Does serving at a charity every day prove our faith more? Does honoring our mother and father prove our merit more than giving God our everything? Is telling people about God any less of a charitable act than working in a food kitchen?
I see giving God our everything as being sufficient and that there is nothing to prove when we do so, but I want to know how Catty views that same issue.
MJP,
you asked, “Catty, what do we have to do, and what does it gain us?” Great question. I’m curious as well.
Falcon,
you said, “she does not believe that Jesus is of one substance with the father. The “Messiah” is likened to a prophet like Moses. She has previously told us that she’s not into the NT. … She’s answered the question. … What we are to do to merit eternal life is keep the ten commandments and do good works.”
I agree that she has said these things. But just a few posts above she said to me, “I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being.”
So, did I miss a conversation somewhere or is this the first time that she has seemingly stepped back from her hebrew roots theology into a research mode? If she has then this has the potential to become great news, although it’s not great news yet. When last talking with her I encouraged her to not throw her faith into her hebrew roots groups and to instead to be just as weary of them as she was of us, for she was quite confident and closed minded with them against us.
But I am quite curious what cattyjane has to say about what MJP asked.
Way off-topic (delete-worthy) question for the moderator: would it be possible to enable the ability to upload avatar images to go with our names. If not, thanks anyways. Just thought I’d finally ask.
Legalism is useful up to a point, just don’t get stuck there. Its not good to pick a few versus from Paul and create an entire doctrine of salvation around it rather look at the whole of scripture. I see the legal language as more like milk. The meat though is Love.
There’s a lot of imagery of the Church as the bride of Christ in the Bible. If we are in a relationship what is required on our end? It’s not about work, it’s about faithfulness.
2 cor. 11:12 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
He is the gift and he gives himself to us. In our faithfulness we offer ourselves back to him. That’s how relationships work. Relationships also grow when cared for. We grow in Christ, Christ grows in us. We become “one flesh”, we die with him and we are raised with him. What happens to the virgins that didnt have oil for their lamps, they got shut out of the wedding.
2 tim 2:12 – It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Mistaken,
Go to the thread on the worship of Joseph Smith. That’s where cattyjane wrote that she does not believe that Jesus is of the same substance as the Father and that the Messiah is a sort of Moses character sent to liberate his people.
Here’s my fear regarding folks who are searching. It comes down to the sources they use to find their information. Also, people go through a “jumping-on-the-bandwagon” phase in their development. I know this all too well.
It’s taken me years, decades actually, where I have enough information and confidence to recognize various streams of thought in the theological world and historical record.
In some ways it’s sort of like a golf swing. OK where am I going with this? A person can practice their golf swing all day long but if they are swinging the club wrong, all they are doing is imbedding a bad habit.
So cattyjane is off on this Jewish roots deal. I’m thinking, “Please spare me!”. But then I look back over my Christian life and the phases I’ve been through and I’m thinking, “Just be patient”. The problem is that people get hooked into groups and the bad information just gets reinforced. Sort of like that bad golf swing!
MIS,
You’re talking like a Christian! Someone who doesn’t believe in the NT, thinks Jesus is like Moses and believes their moral behavior and charitable works are going to save them, can’t relate at all to a personal relationship with Jesus. It makes no sense. That’s the way Mormons are when they hear about salvation via grace and faith. Their heads are into “doing” not “believing”.
Rules don’t define our relationship with Jesus.
Falcon,
“Go to the thread on the worship of Joseph Smith. That’s where cattyjane wrote that she does not believe that Jesus is of the same substance as the Father and that the Messiah is a sort of Moses character sent to liberate his people.” But I agreed with you when I said, “I agree that she has said these things.” but what I rhetorically asked was, “So, did I miss a conversation somewhere or is this the first time that she has seemingly stepped back from her hebrew roots theology into a research mode?” But that conversation of course never happened so her confession that, “I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being” is brand new.
With that bit of context, it’s only appropriate to ask, Catty, what do we have to do, and what does it gain us?” I understand your frustration at her and I promise you that I’m just as eager to pounce as anyone, but first let’s see if she truly meant what she said when said, “I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being.” If she was just saying that for the sake of saying it, then my trust in her veracity will be zero going forward until she fully repents.
“Legalism is useful up to a point, just don’t get stuck there. Its not good to pick a few versus from Paul and create an entire doctrine of salvation around it rather look at the whole of scripture. I see the legal language as more like milk. The meat though is Love.”
Exactly. Following a legal system can help us know boundaries, but the focus can become them rather than Christ himself. Its as if they become idols themselves.
Its hard making the entire scope of scripture mesh when it says some seemingly opposing themes. But grace alone fits in the whole of scripture. While works are emphasized, salvation is not found in them. Faith may be dead without works, but that does not mean that works save. I, by the way, hate the milk before meat analogy, but I get what you are saying there. The meat of the message is to love our neighbors. Everything points to that message, the message as to how to deal with others, at least.
When we are in Christ, that is what we do, though.
MistakenTestimony, I’m not very tech savvy, but this is what I know. We do have avatars enabled for our commenters. You can’t upload an independent avatar, but if you have one that follows you around on the web, registered with a service like Gravatar or something, it will show up on Mormon Coffee. I believe it would need to be tied to your the email address you use here…
This is what I notice when we talk to Catty jane and I’m not sure what we can say to help her better understand us.
If we say, we dont need to do works, she then says, So, you believe you can sin and live how ever you want.
Then I say, were not saying we can live how we want and sin every way possible. I’m saying were saved by grace, and we do as Jesus said, we love God with all our hearts and we love our neighbors and then we wont want to Cheat on our spouses with our neighbors spouses.
We wont want to kill our neighbors, or even our enemies, we wont lie to people, etc. So were not setting up a check list so to speak, like this.
Rules/laws daily check list
Did I murder today? Yes/no
Did I lie today? Yes/no
Die I cheat on spouse today? Yes /No
Did I honor God today? Yes/no
Did I honor my parents today? Yes/No
Now I know Cattyjane would get really mad when I mention this before, but the fact remains it is true.
If you dont keep the O.T law of sabbath you must be stoned, I back it up with chapter and verse.
If you break one of the laws, you need to sacrifice and animal. But here is some problems. People are not being stoned for breaking the sabbath.
People are not going to the priests and bringing animal sin offerings, and we dont have a temple.
So if you really want to keep the laws, How do you handle these issues?
I handle them this way, Jesus is my high priest who died for my Sins and I simply ask Him for forgiveness of sins. 1st John 1:8-9
I love God and my neighbor and do keep the laws by doing that, and not needing a check list.
MJP & Everyone else who wanted this answer,
I don’t have all the answers. I honestly don’t know that there is a magic formula that guarantees us a place in the world to come. I think we just have to rely on the fact that God is merciful. We remember his promises that he made to us and know that he cannot lie. He will do what he says he will do. He will judge our hearts and our minds accurately. As far as requirement I guess just what scripture says.
Micah 6:8
Matthew 22:37-40
John 14:21
1 John 2:3-7
Romans 2:13-16
Galatians 5:19-26
Hebrews 6:9-12
James 2:14-26
@Mistaken Testimony
What do you mean by repent fully? In my opinion repent means to turn from doing what I want that is connected with sin, toward doing the things that God commands me to. What does repent mean to you?
It’s sin to serve a false christ which is a false god. You said, “I think we just have to rely on the fact that God is merciful.” Which god? All of those verses toward a false christ, which is a false god, is sin.
Would you care to elaborate on what you meant when you said, “I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being”? Does this mean that you have removed yourself from the hebrew roots theology and antitrinitarian peers and are back to square one? Are you a blank slate now that you are allegedly studying without identifying with any religion, or are you still bringing and defending your hebrew roots theology to the table with you?
More directly to the point, Falcon made these observations about your positions in the very recent past,
“she does not believe that Jesus is of one substance with the father. The “Messiah” is likened to a prophet like Moses.She has previously told us that she’s not into the NT. … What we are to do to merit eternal life is keep the ten commandments and do good works. Then we stand before the Messiah and He judges whether or not we are worthy to enter heaven. Salvation is based on behavior; both moral and charitable acts.”
And I would like to add that you have also said that true believers in Jesus are to obey the law as described at chabad.org.
So when you said, “I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being,” was that your way of saying that you have fully repented of these heresies and have started over from scratch?
“I don’t have all the answers. I honestly don’t know that there is a magic formula that guarantees us a place in the world to come. I think we just have to rely on the fact that God is merciful. We remember his promises that he made to us and know that he cannot lie. He will do what he says he will do. He will judge our hearts and our minds accurately. As far as requirement I guess just what scripture says./Micah 6:8/Matthew 22:37-40/John 14:21/1 John 2:3-7/Romans 2:13-16/Galatians 5:19-26/Hebrews 6:9-12/James 2:14-26”
Notice that this did not answer the question that MJP asked. This is so generic that LDS, JWs, and Christians all agree with this. You’ve made some pretty radical statements far bolder than this in the recent past regarding works. Does this mean that you have fully repented of your heretical views of the old covenant works in the new covenant religion and that you are ready to start over on a new page?
@Mistaken Testimony,
Just a couple of corrections.
There was a time that I did not read the NT at all. I didn’t believe in it at all. I still struggle with it at times and have doubts about it. I have seen some of the letters written by Paul and how they mirror places in the OT to perfection. This has helped to increase my trust in it.
I never said that a true believer in Jesus would obey the commandments according to chabad.org. In fact I don’t think i have ever used the words “true believer in Jesus”. Chabad.org is a Jewish site. What I said was that the messianic group that I study with at times participates in observing sabbath and the feasts similar to that of chabad.org. I guess I should have provided a messianic site for them that describes how they observe things but chabad.org was the first thing that came to mind. The Messianic group has different beliefs in some of the things of course because they believe that Jesus is the Messiah and Chabad does not.
@Mistaken Testimony,
I don’t think I fully understand what you are asking but I will try to answer.
If you are asking if I have quit associating with the two groups I would have to say no. I am not making a decision regarding conversion at the moment. I just want to learn right now. I want to learn with fair scales and an unbiased opinion. I was feeling really pressured for a while to make a choice about things. I don’t feel that right now and its nice. As far as what Falcon was talking about with regards to my views on the Messiah and his relationship to God, that is what I see evidence for right now.
As far as works are concerned I know that it is not entirely on us to be perfect. We would have to be in a very controlled environment in order for that to occur. I think that our free will gives us the ability to make choices. Making wrong choices allows us to see the wisdom in choosing Gods ways over our ways. It causes us to repent, to turn away from our choices and turn to holiness. If our heart is sincere he will forget our sins and see only our righteousness. We don’t have a temple so of course we need Messiah. We needed a Messiah when we had a temple. We have always needed a Messiah. He makes a way for us. He became the righteous servant for the people and brings healing. He will return and reign as a righteous King.
I have nothing good that I can offer in place of the times that I have missed the mark. I think of the good things that I have done and I see that they are really nothing. The way that I see it is that our acts of unrighteousness leave a permanent mark on peoples lives that can never be erased. We may not even realize that we have done it. Simply losing our cool with someone at the grocery store, or being a bully as a teenager to someone. Its like a stone being thrown in a puddle of water. The ripples cant be stopped once the stone is thrown. No matter how many good works that I do, I cannot erase the hurt or the bad influence that I was to the people in my past. I wouldn’t be able to find everyone and seek forgiveness and fix whatever I had done. It cant be undone. I can only hope that God will forgive me.
I believe works are important because our focus and our intent should be different once we realize the authority of the God that we serve. If we make ripples in the lives of other people it should be for good and not evil. We are always serving someone. Those scriptures I posted show that we cannot have love for God if we are not keeping his commandments. I understand that there will be times where our spirit is weak and we tell a lie to avoid going to a dinner, or don’t inform a cashier when an item slips through unnoticed. But what is our reaction after we are convicted by it? Do we go back in the store and pay? Do we go to the dinner or call the friend and be more honest about our reason for not going? Shouldn’t our actions reveal the spirit that is guiding us in our lives. I think it should. I think that if we are being lax about the commandments than we are not taking serious the scriptures that I posted. Those scriptures are very cut and dry about what a servant of God looks like and none of those verses state that we are not expected to live a life that resembles obedience to the instructions of God.
@MistTest
My response to the commandment question is in Mod Jail.
OK, while you’re post is waiting in mod jail let me ask these specific questions:
1) What did you mean when you said, “I dont have a religion at the moment. Just studying for the time being”? Does this mean that you are starting over and are distancing yourself from your past statements?
2) Do you still deny that Jesus is still one substance with the Father as Christians correctly understand the Trinity, and that he is fully God, fully man, and equal to the Father regarding his divinity?
3) Do you believe that you are still required by God to obey the Sabbath and Passover?
OK, after your post posted I saw that you answered 1) and 2), but did not address 3), so I would like to ask it again.
Do you believe that you are still required by God to obey the Sabbath and Passover?
Falcon said, “she does not believe that Jesus is of one substance with the father. The “Messiah” is likened to a prophet like Moses.” You agreed and said, “As far as what Falcon was talking about with regards to my views on the Messiah and his relationship to God, that is what I see evidence for right now.”
You need to understand that just as the LDS are under God’s wrath for serving a false christ and false god, in the same manner so are you under God’s wrath for serving a false christ and a false god, even though your false christ and false god is different than the LDS.
I was apparently too eager to give you the benefit of the doubt and Falcon was correct when he said, “So cattyjane is off on this Jewish roots deal. I’m thinking, “Please spare me!”. But then I look back over my Christian life and the phases I’ve been through and I’m thinking, “Just be patient”. The problem is that people get hooked into groups and the bad information just gets reinforced. Sort of like that bad golf swing!”
So you need to fully repent and come to a correct knowledge of God and Christ, and deny that you (and by necessity everyone else) are bound by God to obey the Sabbath and Passover and the laws commanded in Pentateuch. Otherwise, you will remain under God’s wrath and will be out of place here by being neither Christian nor LDS on a Christian/LDS blog.
@MistTest
I didn’t answer that one because that was my post that was in mod jail from last night. So don’t act like I ignored you.
I have never believed that anyone had to keep sabbath or observe passover in order to have inheritance in the world to come. Do I think we should do them out of obedience? Maybe. I don’t know. I honestly don’t care anymore.
Cattyjane said, if we are sincere in our hearts God will see that and forgive our sins.
That is so false, the bible never teaches that. In Jeremiah 17 it says, our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked. Were born sinful evil people and the old testament teaches are works are as filthy rags in God’s eyes. So that is so false and leads to massive misunderstandings of the word of God.
Maybe its the Mormon in me talking, but this is also a very Orthodox view.
Obedience is very important to God. It’s part of our end of the relationship and how we come to “know” him truly (it’s not about reading the Bible or understanding the creed) Eternal life is about “knowing” him intimately.
Ephesians 5:22 – Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church,his body, of which he is the Savior.
…But we can’t be obedient without God in us. The Christian life is about the aquisition of the Holy Spirit and growing in Christ. I see it as being a synergistic relationships. We give a little to him in love, he gives a little back to us in love. As he grows in us, we lose our desires to sin, but its paradoxical because we become more aware of how sinful we actually are. Paul at the end of his life said he was the worst of sinners.
I don’t believe Jesus became one of us and lived perfectly so that now we don’t have to, he did it so that we CAN. (Not talking about certain parts of the Law) In becoming man he united human nature to himself and restored it by living perfectly as the New Adam. We were all cursed to death from Adams sin, and the curse was reversed by Jesus righteousness.
Romans 5:17 – For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Now we are able to again have communion with God through Him. Not saying that any of us will ever BE perfect because we are not fully God, but that is what we should aim for with Christ in us. Our journey begins in this life and will continue in the next.
Mathew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Phillipians 4:13 – I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Matthew 5:48 – “Be ye therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
2 Cor. 3:18 – But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
cattyjane,
Not to be flippant or to play amateur psychologist, but it seems with your last comment that you’ve gone into information over-load.
Go back to the Book of Acts were the Philippian Jailer asks Paul and Silas, “Sirs what must I do to be saved?” Paul said to him, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.” As I am fond of saying, God didn’t intend for this to be complicated and an arduous task. Salvation is a gift. We don’t work for a gift. In our case we are receiving not just the Gift, but the Giver of that gift.
That’s why we keep hammering away at the theme, “Who is Jesus?” Only God can atone for sins. A good man can’t do it. A prophet can’t do it. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice because only God is perfect. God brought forth His Word which was always “in” Him. God didn’t create Jesus as the Arians thought. Jesus was always in the Father. He was apart of Him. The Son proceeds from the Father, as I understand it.
None-the-less, only God can be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Why do you guys even ask me questions if you dont like my answers? I wasnt even bothering anyone on this thread. I just asked Eric a simple question about a passage of scripture. Why cant i just get a simple answer without it turning into personal attacks? Sometimes some of you on here are so hateful. I even said to Eric that the way he explained our works vs grace made sense. But apparently that didnt count did it. I think you guys expect to much out of people who leave the church.
The Word of God for Mormons (and CattyJane)
Ok here’s some questions.
Do you see the Word of God in the OT?
(I’m sure you do but here’s one instance) – Isaiah 38:4 – Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
Is the Word of God Divine? Did The Father create it at some point in time or does he have it within himself from all eternity? –
Is the Spirit of God Divine, or created? Does the Father have it within himself from all eternity
If you can answer yes then you are on your way to beginning to understand the Trinity.
Ok so now lets move to the NT (if you dont believe this to be scripture then I can’t help you)
This is where we find out more about the Word of God.
The Word is not just some impersonal power or force, but he is a person who has existed with the Father from all eternity as part of his very being just as His Spirit has.
A divine person who became a man – Jesus. Divine persons are not the same as we see ourselves as human persons though. We really can’t understand Divine personhood but we use what language we have.
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. 4. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn’t overcome*n it.
The word is a HIM. The Word is a person. He is not the Father. He is a distinct person who was with the Father through all eternity and he is God.
How God is 3 divine persons is a mystery that created things cannot comprehend, but this is what is revealed to us by God Himself in scripture and in the life of the Church.
I believe Mormons deny that the Word (or Light or Christ or whatever they call it ) Is a Person. This IS Chrisitnity! and Why Mormons are not considered Chrisitians. And this is what is revealed to us in the New Testament by Jesus and the Gospel of John who knew Jesus personally.
The heart of the Christian faith is the Identity of the Word of God, how he acts in the world and in us. We have a relationship with this person who is at the center of ourselves and all created things (not just humans)
You can not read the NT honestly and not see this (unless you are blinded with Mormon Goggles and interpreting them through Joseph Smith) In which case you just sweep under the rug the parts that dont make sense or “retranslate” them as Joseph did.
I guess Mormons would say that they pray to the Father, and he sends the Spirit and that grows the impersonal light of Christ in them and makes them into Gods at some point. Also keeping the ordinances must happen though too. This is not the same thing as Christian Theosis. Jesus the man is a separate person that is just filled with this light and so is God the Father to them.
Christians say that He IS this light, and so does the Bible.
I am really not sure if Mormons believe in supreme being or not, seems to be not. Christians say that God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are Supreme Being from witch everything created both spiritual and physical gets its being and is upheld by. He is self existent and is in no need for Creation at all. Mormon God (as in Father) exists within a created reality of some sort. This is a very bad distortion of God and not at all Biblical.
Now cattyjane………………………..
If the personal trainer at the gym pushes his/her client to do a few more push-ups, sit-ups or red-line the exercise bike for a few more reps, is that being mean? Now if in the process the trainer calls the client a fat-cow, now that would be mean.
No one here is calling you a theological fat-cow. We are pushing you to define clearly what you believe and then point-out-to-you what we think. That’s what we do here.
The reason we put in the time and effort with you is because we’re #1 defending the orthodox Christian faith and #2 we’re concerned about your eternal destiny.
You do do something for the gift, for Gods’ grace, and for some it is easy for others it is hard. I have been thinking of good analogies but after some thought they always come up short. Some people find joy in what they do while others Don’t.
makeitshine, you said , ” Maybe it’s the Mormon in me talking …” I appreciate your honesty . It does take time ( for some a lot of time ) to get the serious distortions of Mormonism out of their minds and solidly replaced by the truth revealed in the New Testament .
I’m glad you mentioned about eternal life is knowing God intimately . Jn 17:3 mentions this . While obedience is VERY important to God , a true personal relationship with Him only starts by complying with His arrangement and see that revealed in the N.T. The “way ” to God now is to come to His Son ,
Jn 14:6 . Jesus was voicing the Father’s will for sinners when he said ” Come unto Me ” — a personal encounter , and one that is still available today because Jesus is alive and thus will hear all who call upon His name ( Acts 9:14,21 ; Rom 10:9-13 ) . Prayer to God the Father is sweet communion with Him , very intimate and very real . The N.T. reveals the same type of relationship sinners can experience with Jesus their Savior .
You cited Eph . 5:22 . That’s a great way to tie in the wonderful truth about a relationship with Jesus .
Is communication a minor part or major part of a successful marriage ? We can show our love for our spouse by doing things for them , but that would not be enough to define what a personal relationship with them consists of because communication plays a major part of such a relationship otherwise why call it ” personal ” / intimate ” ? We need every day to TELL our wives/ husbands that
we love them . Same for God and His Son .
Paul a well educated and devoted Jew worshiped Jehovah the God of Israel like his forefathers did.
He was well aware of verses like Ps. 99:1-6 , and it was a vital part of his faith and practice .
But his whole life changed when he met Jesus . Devout Jews like Paul entered into a personal relationship with the risen Savior and thus the truths experienced in Ps 99: 1-5 unfolded before him with Jesus . Paul , like the early church called upon the name of Jesus –Acts 9:14, 21 as salvation was now tied to Him — Rom 10:9-13 Acts 4:12 . Paul came to experience salvation through Jesus’ shed blood , and also a daily personal relationship with his risen Savior . The Father’s arrangement for mankind is : Jn 14:6 . Sweet communion with the Father and the Son ( 1Cor 1:9) is available to all .
Hopefully ex LDS like catty will come to bow before Jesus as their Messiah/savior and embrace what Jews in the N.T. did to make their worship of God complete .
catty deserves our patience . It’s a long hard road for some ex Mormons until they see the light at the end of the tunnel . That light is Jesus .