We already live in Narnia.
We live in a universe that had a beginning. Indeed, something exists rather than nothing (this alone is amazing). We live among embodied souls who have intrinsic dignity, beauty, and moral culpability. We live in a universe of real aesthetics, of music and design and order and mathematics and right and wrong and glory and evil. We have a sense that some things are worth it for their own sake. Obligatory for their own sake. Beautiful for their own sake. We have a right sense of the duty of seeking and knowing truth. Minds among us think, reason, relate, rationalize, and introspect. There is love, narrative — even dramatic narrative — and a sense of ultimate purpose. Of the Greater Story, with heroes, and foes, and tragedy, and romance, and victory, and justice. We know that wrong things need to be made right.
This is the reason I won’t join in atheism’s mockery of Mormonism. Atheism mocks Mormonism for making claims to the supernatural. I instead ridicule Mormonism for belittling God and for belittling the gospel. It is a very “serious” ridicule — the kind that (hopefully) maintains a sense of gravity and greatness of the universe, of God, of the gospel, and of the dignity of men and women.
Mormons are fools for saying there is no known absolutely Most High God. But atheists are fools for saying there is no supernatural god at all. Atheism mocking Mormonism is like the blind mocking the deaf.
Atheism is just another blue pill. Christ is the only red pill.
I hate to say it, but atheists and Mormons will end up in the same place. There is only one true God, and they both reject this true God. And that is the bottom line, and why I think it is important to educate Mormons on the real God and what he can do for them.
Aaron,
How does our faith and religion go about “belittling God and belittling the gospel?”
Do you recognize that I could just as well claim that your version of Christianity does the same thing?
I can provide many reasons why your version of Christianity might be called “foolish.”
So what makes you go so aggressively into the public arena decrying my faith and religion?
I believe very deeply that those self-described Christians who spend their time attacking our religion are much more in line with atheism than almost any other religious demographic. The reason for that is that those critics essentially always assume the atheist mindset when evaluating our faith claims. The approach of the atheists is no different than the approach of the religious critics of our faith- no difference whatsoever. Do you think that is significant?
I am absolutely convinced that despite what these religious critics think about themselves, they would have rejected Moses had they lived in his day or in the 100 years or so after his life.
I will give you credit in that I don’t remember you taking this same atheist approach with our faith. You spend almost all of your time on your favorite topic of God’s nature. I suppose I respect that a little more than the people who reject our religion on the basis of their perceptions of science and evidences- they are so incredibly inconsistent and rely upon double standards for every one of their arguments.
That being said, I have always found it very telling that you pick only a few clips from the King Follett Discourse while ignoring others to make your case regarding what our view of God really is. Another issue I have with your approach is the attempt to appear objective or somehow valid in the way you conduct your surveys of LDS. Another criticism I have is that you really come off as enjoying and even promoting the belief among some LDS that God could have been a sinner. I find that extremely problematic. The final criticism I have for your approach in criticizing us is that it all seems to reek of ignoring “the weightier matters.” In other words, there is a militancy and extremists feel in focusing on things that are not really even at the center of our religion, despite what you say. Christ had serious issue with the Pharisees for focusing so much on details while neglecting things like “judgement, mercy, and faith.” He said of them, “ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
For that reason alone, I would very seriously search my soul and my own hypocrisy before spending time criticizing the faith and religion of other people in this way. I just think it is such a vulnerable position to be in- one surrounded by the temptation to lift one’s self above others in judgement. I would simply fear so greatly offending God.
Well, FoF, I would say you belittle God when you make him one among many. Even if he is the only god we are to worry about, I would argue that this belittles Him. If he shares his powers with other gods of other worlds, he is not unique. This belittles Him.
Fof,
How many times must I tell you, were not attaking your religion. We are simply doing as your prophets, leaders and scripture teach, and showing you that js was a fraud.
Then, you keep boasting about evidence that you make excuses as to why you cannot post it. Then you as other lds avoid the hard topics and focus on things like this.
Then you claim your church is open and honest in saying, we want people to look into these things. But when I issued a challange saying I can prove that false, you as usual disappeared. Is it any wonder we don’t trust or believe you?
You know what FoF,
How could Christians rejecting a false prophet and embracing Christ be anything like the Pharisees? You say pharisees focused on the small things and ignored the bigger picture?
The big picture is the nature of God. Who God is. Who Christ is. How we get to heaven. What we were created for. These are monumental issues. These aren’t minor theological disagreements. These are the differences between heaven and hell, truth and lies, Holy admiration and blasphemy.
Small stuff would be how we dress for church. Weather we are clean shaven or not. If and how we fulfill our church duties. How regularly we do FHM. Thats the small stuff.
Until Mormons can stand up and say we believe in ONE God, maker of heaven and earth. We believe In Jesus Christ his only begotten son, born from a virgin IN BETHLEHEM. We believe that God is God and we are His creation, made to love and be loved by Him. That we will never be equal to Him. That we get to be in His presence because of His work on the cross. That Christ has made us all priests and priestesses.
That temples serve no purpose and that marriage is for this life only. That abstaining from coffee but drinking beer is the dumbest thing to consider righteous. That our righteousness comes only from Christ being within us.
When Mormons can put God’s true, tested, and timeless word ahead of that which was “Translated” from a prophet who fails the test of a prophet.
When Mormons can love God and truth more than their church.
That’s when we will be quite. That’s when we can have peace knowing our loved ones are no longer being lied to. That’s when we can embrace Mormon’s as Christians. Until that happens, we won’t be silenced. No matter how frustrated it makes you FOF, the truth is too important.
For some reason it’s easier to believe a prophet than to believe what God says about himself.
FOF,
Your religion belittles God when it claims that He is nothing but your spirit brother and the spirit brother of Satan. Your religion belittles the Gospel by adding your own works to Jesus work on the Cross, and your baptism for the dead is extremely offensive. As if Jesus alone can’t Save people, he needs the LDS to help him or those people have no hope
“Do you recognize that I could just as well claim that your version of Christianity does the same thing?
You could, but God’s Word wouldn’t back you up.
“I can provide many reasons why your version of Christianity might be called “foolish.”
Please provide those reasons and let’s discuss those.
“I believe very deeply that those self-described Christians who spend their time attacking our religion are much more in line with atheism than almost any other religious demographic.”
There are over 60,000 LDS missionaries out there attacking Christianity every day, are they not “critics” of our religion? Not to mention the way Christian pastor and ministers are portrayed in LDS temples and the Mormon miracle pageant every year in Manti, Utah, so please give this self proclaimed persecution a rest.
FoF,
Many people on this site are ex Mormons. They don’t view Mormonism from the outside looking in. They were in it. I am a “critic” of Mormonism because the poor Mormon people have been fooled. It’s very sad. And while the Mormon bubble may be pleasing to some now, it won’t be when it pops, and it will pop. Now or later, it will. I don’t believe I have ever used double standards or atheist arguments. I am very curious on what those are. I would like to know how I am a hypocrite so I can repent of it and change my ways. So please, help a fellow sinner out.
FoF asked,
“How does our faith and religion go about belittling God and belittling the gospel?”
Simple, because “[y]our faith and religion” are contrary to the the true God and the true gospel. You speak of “your version of Christianity,” but there are not different versions of Christianity, there is only orthodoxy and heresy. You are a heretic and your faith and religion are heresy.
FOF said,
Do you recognize that I could just as well claim that your version of Christianity does the same thing [belittle God and belittle the gospel]
I say.
Please explain. It is very important to me that my beliefs glorify God and his Gospel it’s the reason for my existence. If what you claim were true I would want to know it. I’m serious
Recently you claimed to have overwhelming evidence of the truth of the BOM but when asked you could not be bothered to provide this evidence.
Now you are making a very serious claim against orthodox Christianity and I’m again asking for evidence. Please don’t treat this request the same way you did the first one,
You say,
How does our faith and religion go about “belittling God and belittling the gospel?”
I say,
Some folks have already provided evidence that your organizations beliefs diminish the Glory of God and his gospel. but just in case you missed it.
You diminish the glory of the gospel by making it impotent to save without the effort of puny humans and you diminish the glory of God by making him just one more deity among many. This is the reason we are critical of Mormonism
quote:
For you are great and do wondrous things; you alone are God. Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name. I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify your name forever. For great is your steadfast love toward me; you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
(Psalms 86:10-13)
end quote:
God is great because he is unique and because he saved me because of nothing but his steadfast love for me!!!!!!!!!!
Do you see the difference
peace
@aaron
A little off topic, but I heard a letter you wrote to shawn mccraney the other day. I was laughing my butt off cus he couldn’t pronounce your name! Hahaha. It was an old episode about Sidney rigdon.
Anyhoo, you were making some joke about him getting mad at callers and you quoted a book of mormon scripture. I don’t think he quite got the joke or realized you worked for MRM.
Still chuckling to myself.
I am not going to post on this site anymore. Many of my responses don’t ever get posted. And others take literally a day “awaiting moderation” before being posted. That makes it extremely difficult to have anything approaching an interactive exchange or real dialogue.
God bless all of you!
FoF and other LDS that were wondering the same thing about how the LDS faith and religion belittle God and the Gospel,
I have a way of describing the LDS faith and religion”in a nutshell”as “Everything that us big is made small and everything that is small is made big”.
Now, before I elaborate, let us clear out of the way the obvious that you will not agree with all-if any-of my assessments of Mormonism. Also, if something is true than it is greater our “less belittled”than something that is not. But, FoF, you must recognize that Aaron is speaking from his own point of view and his understanding of the Bible. You well of choose disagree from your perspective and your reading of your scriptures. That said, let’s get to it-cause there’s a lot.
As pointed out by others the LDS God is not unique, note is he ultimate. In fact, that may be the quickest way to not belittling – Christianity claims God is the Ultimate- there is nothing greater than God, there is nothing equal to God, and there is nothing that exists besides God that did not come from God. While the LDS God has been taught to be a product of a larger system or superuniverse and its laws. It is this system, its laws represented by the LDS gospel, that is the Ultimate in the LDS theology. This system our eternal laws is the thing outside of which there is nothing else and from which all else has come, except the eternal matter that is basically part if the system. But enough of the technicals…
God goes from unique, Ultimate, actually eternal to one of many, conditional beings that are only eternal or everlasting in one direction. God goes from pure inherently Holy and unchanging in essence and character to once being a man and just as likely to gave been a sinner as not.And he still is a man, just glorified.
Similarly, God goes from the Most High condescending so low to rebellious creatures to a literal father duty bound to do something, but sends his son instead. God goes from bring the Ultimate worthy alone of praise and worship to a literal father who demands worship from his children? More child be said but let’s move on.
Jesus is no longer the Ultimate but just another god, no longer condescending so lite for horribly ungrateful and brutal creatures but a literal brother who only did what any brother ought to have.
Holy Spirit is no longer the Ultimate but another brother god.
Oh, and in case LDS here have never noticed God his from the three persons room one substance being the only way to explain God being Love-a relation-to three separate beings who are not Love but do love. Check out the verse “God is love.”
The Atonement is smaller, not covering murder and maybe some other sins. It also only resurrects, but gets you nowhere near the Father our Jesus without your own effort.
Even the priesthood is smaller, not including all believers-male and female. Also the LDS priesthood is effective only upon the man’s worthiness instead of Jesus’.
Sin is smaller, or else how can anyone consider themselves “worthy”?
On the other hand humans are greater, as gods in embryo. Human action is greater, essential for salvation.
In LDS, the temple is less, distant, dead stone, with inconstant “restored”rituals instead of the temple of God within the believer.
Grace becomes “earned”, as does mercy. Admittedly, this is not belittling as much as contradiction meaninglessness.
Worthiness and holiness and purity all seem to be lessened.
Heaven is smaller. Given the requirements of the Celestial Kingdom, if they are serious at all-it seems guaranteed that no one will be there. So all the levels of damnation-everything but the top third of the Celestial-is greater than the Hell of Christianity.
Oh, and Heavenly Father didn’t create but organized, but not that either-just authorized Jesus doing it. HF didn’t atone, just authorized Jesus to do it.HF, that is “FATHER” abandons his literal children because they are not good enough as opposed to the Creator God who judges His creatures.
There’s more but I’ve got to go. Sorry for tips our bad writing, used my phone and am tired. I’ll end with this. The Bible, the building up of His church, and many other plans of HF brought to naught by mere humans.
FofF , may you come to know the true God and the salvation He offers . Mormonism is not the
answer . You have been alerted of the danger you are in : following prophets in these latter days
who God has not sent —Mat 24:11 . It’s worth reminding you also that not all false prophets
are immoral or leaders of small bands of followers, some are well dressed, polite, and talk about
” following Christ ” . May you take these reminders seriously and in the spirit in which they are
given —- a sincere concern to see you free from them by turning to the true Jesus —-Jn 17:3 .
As much as I would love to wish FoF a fond farewell, I know he will be back, or at the very least be a lurker for a while.
@fof
Listen, I really hope one day you can take a step back from Mormonism and look at it objectively. I’ve been in the church almost 40 years. I was a TBM defender on here just a few years ago! It took someone else who had just stumbled upon the church’s ridiculous history to snap me out of it. I realized how foolish I sounded to her! I had spent years justifying everything that was made up or lied about by our church. I became numb to the reality and just carried on believing because it was easy. As a Mormon, it’s hard to critically analyze mormon doctrine without first looking honestly at church history. You seem to not want to do that. So it’s futile to argue doctrine with you.
Once you realize that the church is not what it claims it is (or at the very least realize the church lies about its own history), then maybe you will start to analyze lds doctrine without Mormon goggles, and you’ll understand why Christians feel you belittle their faith. All that these people on here have done is explained very specifically why the lds faith is not compatible with Christianity. You unfortunately refuse to see or even acknowledge their viewpoints.
@everyone
Most ex Mormons can probably back me up on here as we have generally come from a similar mindset as fof at some point in our lds background. It’s obvious just from the numerous posts that fof is quick to argue doctrinal tit for tats, but when factual church history is presented, he is almost nowhere to be found. My advice for all Christians on here is to realize that your doctrine means almost nothing to the faithful lds. And I mean that quite literally. It is worthless in their eyes. The most effective tool you have to help people out of Mormonism is it’s own history. Just shine a lite on it without embellishment or vindictiveness, and Mormons with an open heart will respond to it. Once that dam breaks, then the true gospel of Christ will be able to penetrate their souls.
@fof
I recently asked you in another post about the churches “aversion therapy” program for homosexuals. I don’t know if you responded so I’ll ask it again.
How can you raise your hand to sustain a “prophet” who oversaw and approved of a church project that secretly took 15 year old boys, without parental consent, and shocked their genitals while forcing them to watch hardcore gay and straight pornography? How do you justify this to yourself? I’m honestly asking this. I really want to know. How do you justify feeding a child psychoactive drugs that make him vomit while telling his parents he’s away at a genealogical studies camp? If this had happened to my son I would have likely killed someone and you can damn sure bet that I would be suing the one true church for millions.
Next time Monson gets up at general conference to speak I hope you get a visual in your mind of a kid vomiting and crying while his groin is being electrocuted. Then sing “we praise the oh god for a prophet” with a straight face.
I think it is necessary to respond to FOF’s last comment, since the comment he refers to is definitely in moderation. There are reasons for that, but FOF’s comment that “many” of his responses don’t ever get posted is just malarkey. I will let Sharon share (if she wishes) why FOF’s second to last comment was not cleared yet. Virtually all of FOF’s comments go through right away, there are things that hold up comments, like links in them, and once in a while, it’s just a mystery as Old Man can attest to, (his get held up far more often than FOF’s ever did for some reason). Most days, I check in up to 3 times a day, (as I have Sharon’s back — I’m retired and write and draw on my computer), and so I know that FOF as usual is full of bubble talk – even on his way out.
Regarding the comment from FoF that spent a day in moderation, the comment violated Rule #1 and Rule #5 of the Mormon Coffee comment policy (http://blog.mrm.org/comment-policy/). If the comment had posted automatically, I likely would have let it stand. But since it (providentially) ended up in moderation, I chose to give it some consideration and eventually decided against approving it for posting.
As a general rule, we’d like to avoid cluttering up our discussion threads with comments about moderation decisions, so please direct any questions or comments about Mormon Coffee moderation to moderators[at]mrm[dot]org. Thanks!
I think it’s important to remember why Mormons like Fof F come on here . He is’nt here merely to
engage in ” meaningful dialogue ” wanting to better understand our beliefs etc , he already had
determined this ministry is not of God and those non-Mormons on here are deceived . He feels
that he can stop the influence of this ministry, and our testimony , because he is very
knowledgeable about Mormonism and has the “authority” to correct all our lies . This is why he
has showed up here . I for one have a hard time accepting his statements where he explains
what certain Bible verses mean when he can’t even agree with what his own leadership has taught
on certain issues . Right at the beginning of when he reappeared here the topic was concerning
the universal apostasy that Mormon leaders claim happened shortly after Jesus’ apostles
were all dead . The scripture he tried to explain the correct meaning of was Matt 18:20 . Yet his
explanation is not what is found in the teachings of some of his leaders as well as various
Mormon publications . Then one of his more recent errors was how he maintained that his
leaders taught that Christ has existed forever as a perfect God , that He was always God etc. But
various Mormon authorities have taught otherwise . This behavior makes it very difficult to
take him serious when he proceeds to then claim to offer the correct explanation about what
the Bible teaches .
This to me serves a good example why Mormon apologists like Fof F are’nt to be taken to
seriously in much of what they proclaim . If he is a Mormon General Authority , then I would
be more inclined to take him seriously .
Pray for Fof F , that one day soon he will exchange his latter days apostles for the true authentic
ones that Jesus commissioned in the New Testament . If he takes this big step he will be in a
good position to find the truth about God and the gospel that saves —Jn 17:3 ; Rom 1:16
WOW! Busy place today.
FOF left………..again!? I don’t know if we’ve ever had such whining on this blog before by a member of the LDS church.
I’m glad grindael and Sharon took some time to answer FOF’s major complaint, among the many he has.
If someone is going to hang around on this blog they better have and bring their “A” game. I would be frustrated too if I were a TBM with limited knowledge but a whole lot of emotional buy-in to the LDS program.
This place is populated mainly by former Mormons. They’ve been there, done that, have gotten the tee shirt.
I don’t know exactly what the tee shirt would say on it but perhaps some of our former Mormon posters could tell us what’s written on their’s.
dude… I never got a T-SHIRT!
I want mine to say “This Man Doesn’t Seem Like A Dodo”
I just think FoF has a mistaken testimony. Praying for you.
JB
Well it’s given out when you leave the LDS church.
It might say something like “I could never do enough!” or “Gone a year and still not in serious sin!” or “Former LDS and very HAPPY” (with a smiley face).
How about “Show me the way to Kolob”.
Kolob or bust
johnnyboy, this is the passage I sent to Shawn on 5/4/12:
”And ye have murmured because he hath been plain unto you. Ye say that he hath used sharpness; ye say that he hath been angry with you; but behold, his sharpness was the sharpness of the power of the word of God, which was in him; and that which ye call anger was the truth, according to that which is in God, which he could not restrain, manifesting boldly concerning your iniquities.” (2 Nephi 1:26)
He understood the significance 🙂 He knew who I was, and I wasn’t joking against Shawn or presenting myself as a Mormon. The significance of the passage was that Mormon culture seems to “murmur” as the very same things as spoken of in 2 Nephi 1:26.
Grace and peace in Jesus!
– Aaron
@aaron
I got what you were referencing in regards to the people that had been calling in. I meant “joking” in that you were pointing out the callers hypocrisy using their own scripture. I find that kind of stuff ha ha funny. It seemed like Shawn didn’t get it at first. Or maybe I perceived that he didn’t get it. I’m glad he knows who you are! I was just laughing cus you’d think he’d know how to say your name. But that was probably just Shawn being Shawn.
@falcon
It seems that over the years on Mormon Coffee there tends to be one or two TBM’s that start rehashing the same tired arguments. Then everyone on here points out factually how wrong they are and they whine and disappear. But like a broken record some new TBM’s appear and the process repeats itself ad infinitum. It gets super frustrating reading the same old talking points from mopologists. Ugh.
I think that Mr. Boreavansky comments were right on about the subject at hand.
Now you will not see Mr. Boreavansky’s comments but that is part of the process of moderation. The moderator has to act like a referee and make sure things flow well. Several blogs ago Rick b. posted a comment and somebody replied to it then it was gone. It drives me up a wall because I read it but I don’t remember what it said.
So if you really want to get rid of me all you have to do is Say- Good comment rick or Mike or falcon. When they haven’t post anything.
Mr.Boreavansky didn’t post anything.
One more thing.
It seems strange that we are amazed at Gods’ glory when we look at the sky at night and behold his workmanship. Yet we mock how others see Him.
Clyde, there you go again .
JB,
You have to think of MC like talk radio or maybe an oldies station. We get new listeners tuning in here all of the time. So we have to play the tapes over and over again i.e. repeating talking points because they are unfamiliar with the information. Hopefully they then go and do some research themselves. That’s why I get sarcastic and a little out on the edge sometimes. It’s to provoke them to an emotional disequilibrium. Former Mormons talk all the time about something they read or heard that they just couldn’t believe.
@falcon
Yes. A talk radio show. The repeat is inevitable. I guess people like fof are hyper annoying cus they already have been refuted pretty handedly and they keep ignoring what’s being said to them. So it goes round and round and round.
I don’t mind the newbs so much. I get a chuckle from the occasional “why are you guys spending so much time bashing our religion? Don’t you have better things to do? Can’t you just let it go?”
I was recently reading William Laws letters about leaving Mormonism behind him and I wished I could be like him and forget it all, but then I realized “wait, I’ve been in this Mormon business for almost 40 yrs! William law ain’t got nothing on me! I can stew about it for as long as I need to!!”
Handedly = handily
I always get that messed up. Screw you English language!!
Johnny,
People like fof keep staying simply because they feel if they keep saying over and over, were are all wrong, other lds will simply believe it.
The problem is, people like fof keep claiming they have evidence, then when we ask for it they cannot provide it, and that does not help them.
Then people like clyde come along, claim to be mormon, just babble like they are on lsd, and make no sense. Thats not helping the lds any either.. but it makes them happy since they are doing works.
clyde says,
It seems strange that we are amazed at Gods’ glory when we look at the sky at night and behold his workmanship. Yet we mock how others see Him.
I say,
It seems strange to me that a genuine desire that the one true God and his Gospel not be belittled and disrespected is somehow seen as mockery.
And that some people would be more concerned that other’s beliefs might be mocked than that God himself might be besmirched and dishonored.
quote:
Ascribe to the LORD, O families of the peoples, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength! Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name;
(1 Chronicles 16:28-29a)
end quote:
peace
Mormonism belittles God ? Absolutely .
The God we meet in Genesis 1 has been reduced by the latter days prophets of Mormonism
to be nothing more than a human male , one among millions above , who supposedly learned
enough to become the Almighty Creator of heaven and earth . So the God in Genesis 1:1 had
to be taught by a God with more dominion and glory to be able to know how to even say
“Let there be light” . That is an egregious doctrine , and what makes it even more terrible is
that it comes from men who claim to be the leaders in Jesus’ church restored after 1700 years
of extinction on the earth .
Investigators considering Mormonism need to be advised of what Mormon leaders have taught
about God , something that they will not read on the official church website or from Mormon
Missionaries unless they ask the right questions , and even then it will most likely be denied
or down played . Following prophets is serious and because counterfeits will abound
a plenty in the latter days it’s essential to test them —compare their teachings with God’s
Word the Bible . The Bible has rightly been called the bedrock of the Christian faith , so
comparing the teachings of latter days prophets with the Bible is the proper place to start .
Mk 13:22-23 ; Gal. 1:8-9
I kind of like that question by Mormons, “Why do you people spend so much time attacking our religion?”
First of all we’ve learned that any time Mormonism is questioned it is considered an “attack”. Mormons are about the most thin skinned bunch I’ve ever encountered.
Why do we spend so much time at this? To prove to those who are caught in Mormonism they are in an imitation Christian religion and need to get out and prevent those who are considering the religion to not go near it.
Wouldn’t anyone warn someone if they were drinking something that would eventually kill them?
In Christianity we drink Living Water. It is pure and wholesome and is spiritually invigorating.
Jesus said He is Living Water. He also said He is the Bread of Life.
Mormonism provides neither Living Water or Bread of Life because the sect does not know Jesus.
Joseph Smith made up his own religion with his own scripture, his own god, his own rituals and his own plan of salvation with a place of final spiritual rest that doesn’t exist.
This is called a counterfeit.
It’s no wonder that so many former Mormons become atheists. It’s like the sign I saw the other day, “Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies is why I have trust issues!”
Mormonism is raisin cookies masquerading as chocolate chip.
Just for fun I decided to look-up “steps” in leaving or recovery from Mormonism. How about these you former Mormons?
I admit that I am powerless to change the fact that I have been Mormon for a good part of my life, whether because I was born to Mormon parents, or because I voluntarily converted.
I realize that I have within me the power to free myself from the harmful part of my Mormon past (with the help of a higher power if I believe in one), and that I am no longer bound by promises or covenants which I was induced to make based on the false promises of Mormonism.
I make to myself a firm promise to listen in the future only to reason, rationality, and factual evidence in making decisions about how I should live my life, rejecting all emotional appeals, guilt-inducing threats, myths, pretty stories, promises of castles in the air, and superstition.
I make a searching and fearless moral and intellectual inventory of myself with the purpose of recognizing in myself those weaknesses which induced me to remain Mormon for so long.
I itemize (preferably in writing) to myself and to a trusted loved one (and to a higher power if I believe in one) the specific reasons why I can no longer be Mormon.
I make the decision to do what is right, and to accept whatever the consequences may be for acknowledging the truth and living accordingly.
I begin working through each of my Mormonism-related problems of mind, body, relationships, and (if I believe in such a thing) spirit.
I make a list of those for whom it would be important to know of my decision and the changes I am making in my life, and prepare myself emotionally to discuss my decision with them all, realizing that many may react with hurt, anger, emotional outbursts, or other unpleasantness.
I discuss my decision with them (except in those cases where I think it would cause greater harm to do so than not) in a calm, friendly and loving way, without argument.
I continue to take personal inventory, and where I find artifacts of Mormonism, I carefully consider whether they should continue to be a part of my life, or whether I should discard them.
I seek out truth wherever I can find it, whether religious or secular.
Having had an awakening and renewal as the result of these steps, I try to be helpful to other recovering or doubting Mormons, and to practice these principles in all of my affairs.
– By Matthew P. Barnson and Richard Packham
This might also be helpful/interesting.
http://packham.n4m.org/leaving.htm
Example:
4) Resign your membership and take your name off the church records. The price for selecting this option may be high, if, as a result, you alienate family and friends. Divorce by a Mormon spouse and/or disownment by Mormon parents is not at all uncommon. Loss of Mormon friends is almost certain. It also has the disadvantage that you may feel suddenly alone and alienated from your cultural roots. Many people are not prepared sufficiently to deal with this unexpected emotional void, and need a support group (see listings below).
This fourth option has the tremendous advantage, however, that you are free as you have never been free before, that you can be confident that those who remain close to you truly love you for yourself and not just because they are supposed to love you, and that nothing now is holding you back from determining your own destiny and finding your own path through life. Most people who have taken this option, even though it may have cost them dearly in lost relationships, would not wish for a moment that they had chosen something less.
Well here’s something for atheists. I couldn’t resist this because of my Catholic training and background. Was this a miracle? Is there a logical explanation? Is it a fraud?
Hay, maybe this means the Catholic Church is the “one true Church”, right?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/09/what_the_secular_media_doesnt_know_about_pope_francis.html
“I discuss my decision with them (except in those cases where I think it would cause greater harm to do so than not) in a calm, friendly and loving way, without argument.”
There aren’t many Mormons in my life that this can happen with. I try not to discuss things with my mom anymore either. She is so defensive. She has started talking about Mormon teachings and Mormon leaders a lot lately, I think she believes that she’s educating me. I feel deep sadness when she does this because I can see just how brainwashed she is. I take my mind elsewhere because it literally makes me want to vomit. How does one have a civil conversation with a Mormon when they believe you are persecuting them because you don’t believe anything Mormon? If we are all Christians, we should be able to have great conversations about religion, right?
Kate,
On the upside, your mom is talking. I’d encourage her if you can stand it. I wouldn’t tell her anything at this point. It’s that old adage, “If I tell you, you will doubt me. If you say it, it’s true”. I’d ask some “I wonder why……..”questions or “Tell me more about that”. It takes a ton of patience but it’s a spiritual battle. It’s like trying to convince a drunk that they have a problem with alcohol. They can come up with the most ridiculous explanations and reasons why they aren’t really drunks.
There’s something else that I’ve notice and that is that there is a lot of secret study that goes on in Mormonism. Often times husbands and wives are researching Mormonism but not telling each other. So your mom may start sneaking a peek at “@nti” LDS material.
Falcon,
“So your mom may start sneaking a peek at “@nti” LDS material.”
She won’t even turn on the computer. She has no interest in it. In fact she wouldn’t even know how to turn on my dad’s computer lol! Her house if filled with LDS books. The book, To The Rescue by Thomas Monson, is front and center in the living room, as well as books by Gordon Hinckley. There is no way she would ever look at a book I gave her unless it was church approved. I know exactly how she thinks because I was the exact same way. I do love my computer though. She’s what you would call a naive believer. She does absolutely no research and just believes what she has been spoon fed all of her life. I’m not putting her down, I was the same way. It’s really hard to break through to someone who believes blindly. They don’t care what evidence is out there. They feel good and righteous so they think all is well.
“It takes a ton of patience”
I’m in trouble hahaha! For some reason, God didn’t bless me with this virtue 🙂 I struggle daily with this one.
I appreciate the fact that there are many people on here , both ex-Mormons and those who have
never been Mormons , who realize that we are not here to just convince Mormons to leave
Mormonism . We know that for Mormons to leave the Mormon church is not our ultimate mission
it is a step , a huge one to be sure , but our desire is not that Mormons become ex-Mormons but
that they become saved . We point them to the true Jesus and the salvation He offers — no temple
no prophet , just Jesus —-Jn 14:6 ; Heb 7:25 .
One reason why Jesus for- warned of latter days false prophets is because following them
involves substantial investment of one’s life ( emotional , spiritual , financial ) after joining the
religious organizations they create , thus when followers discover they’ve been misled , deceived
it results in carnage , turmoil, in their lives . Loss of family, friends , and even employment .
Many transition through this turmoil realizing they’ve been a victim of a counterfeit prophet
and his counterfeit gospel just as Jesus predicted would come , and understanding He said this
has caused them to not discard Jesus and drift into atheism .
But this transition can take a long time for some . We need to remember that and treat them
with patience . God is working behind the scenes in their lives .
God bless those ex-Mormons on here who have experienced new life in Jesus . For the others
who may stop by here from time to time who are still confused as to where to ” hang their hat ”
hopefully we can encourage you in some small way to not give up on Jesus .
I’ll try this in a more user friendly way:
1) God is not Unique but just one of Many
2) God is not the Ultimate but just a god/creature in a System of Eternal Principles (described by the LDS Gospel) that makes gods out of pre-existent intelligences and matter.
3) God has not been God eternally.
4) God was once just a man (very well probably sinful or at least its 50/50).
5) Considering 1-4 it becomes very unclear how God is Holy, inherently HOLY, not just “became holy” holy.
6) God is no longer the Ultimate showing Infinite Grace and Love by condescending so low as to care, let alone save by His own misery, torture, and execution, rebellious creatures like us.
7) God is actually just our literal, though successful, father showing only the kind of love and fulfilling his duty as we should expect from any father worth his weight in salt.
8) But instead God sends his literally seperate Son instead to do it (see 7).
9) God is a literal father who demands worship from his literal children. (Really?)
10) Jesus is no longer the Unique, Ultimate, HOLY, Eternal God, but one of many, etc. (see 1-6)
11) Jesus is no longer the MOST HIGH (see 7) but now our literal brother who is only doing what any brother ought to do.
12) God and Jesus could conceivably stop being God and Jesus if they did not fulfill their familial duty by authorizing/going to save us. (Instead of a Creator who could have completely justifiably left rebellious creatures to their choices and their consequences and not lost one bit of His Honor.)
13) Holy Spirit is no longer (see 1-6).
14) God is subject to the Holy Priesthood (similar to the Eternal Principles Superuniverse he is a creature of listed above, but “His holy priesthood” isn’t really His, created by Him, but He is a creation of it).
I’ll continue later with #15. For now, please LDS, just consider how all of the above COMPLETELY redefines the term “god”. Is not unique, is not Most High, is not even the Creator but just an organizer (ah! #15), is not different from us in any way but his preceding us, is duty bound to attend to us, did not create everything, is just another “highly developed human” creature of a superuniverse. How is this a god in any way that any other person besides LDS would consider legit?
stay tuned….
Continued from directly above:
How the LDS religion “belittles” God.
15) God cannot create or destroy matter; He can only organize matter into planets, animals, etc.
16) Jesus’ sacrifice was smaller not only in that he had to do it as any good brother ought (#11) but in that it does not save us all the way back to full and direct relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
17) Jesus’ Atonement is smaller in that it cannot provide forgiveness to someone who has committed murder, not matter how repentant they are.
18) Salvation provided by Jesus’ Atonement becomes less clearly good as that it “saves” people from death but not from damnation – effectively saving people for damnation – salvation unto damnation(?).
19) Sin is smaller in Mormonism. This belittles God by diminishing our offensiveness to Him and His Holiness. LDS give lip service to sins of the mind – lust, hate, lies – but largely focus on “bigger” sins of adultery, murder, not tithing, drinking “hot drinks”, etc. The very principles of “keep all of the commandments” and “repentance is the forsaking of sin” or “repentance is the stopping of sin” and the implicit teaching that such things are even possible either belittle sin and God’s Holiness or agrandize human capabilities (and thus relatively belittle God).
20) Humans are made bigger and thus relatively make God smaller by making their actions more successful – the “stopping” of sin, the necessary good works to determine “worthiness” and thus determination of level of “heaven” “acheived”.
21) The Priesthood is smaller – belittles God by belittling “His priesthood”. It is smaller and weaker in two ways: it does not include women (smaller) and it is dependent on the “worthiness” of the man holding it (weaker – because are there any LDS men really “worthy” of the powers of Heaven???).
22) Worship of God is belittled in a couple of ways. 1) God is our literal Father and so it becomes basically impossible to Worship Him in awe and holy fear (can you see yourself prostrating yourself in self-depricating and God-glorifying worship of your earthly father? – how much more your literal spirit father?). 2) Worship in Mormonism seems to be limited to only obedience not praise and relational worship (not surprising considering #1 – #2 would be the affirmative belittling – “do obey” – vs. the negative belittling – “can’t worship” of #1)
23) Mormonism belittles God by claiming that He could not or would not preserve His Word in the scriptures of the New and Old Testaments.
24) Mormonism belittles God when it puts these words in His mouth, “49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.” (DnC 124:49) Just “it behooveth me” is more than bad enough.
25) Mormonism belittles God when it blames Him for its own racism. Something along the lines of “we don’t know how the priesthood ban on blacks started but we know only a command from God can end it,” aka – we sure wish we could be as good as everyone else knows to be regarding race, but we can’t because God is keeping us from stopping.
26) Mormonism belittles God by claiming He had to have some type of “super” but still very natural relations with Mary in order to make Jesus’ body. In the words of one Mormon who denied this – “4. His reference to God actually having physical intercourse with the virgin Mary is something I have never heard about. (p 158 #7) LDS people believe the “virgin Mary” gave birth to Jesus Christ, the literal son of Heavenly Father. Mr Manfield apparently does not believe that Heavenly Father is capable of divine intervention.” – by a reviewer named Wondering in his review of Mansfield’s The Mormonizing of America [a good example of LDS overconfidence in their familiarity with their religion by the way, recommend all read it and my note critiquing his critique].
27) Mormonism belittles God by claiming that His Gospel includes things so impossible, irrational, and thus foolish as the idea that repentance is the “forsaking of sins” and, more clearly, the “stopping” of sins, or not committing that sin again, or that “keep my commandments continually” (DnC 25:15) is actually possible. Proud human teaching or irrational God?
28) Mormonism belittles God when it claims that it is the only true church with the only true prophet that, assumedly, will clear up confusion and make known the knowledge and will of God, but then continually make excuses for why what the prophets teach is mere opinion or give infinite patience to prophets who never prophecy (no truly new DnC section in over a hundred years? really?).
29) Mormonism belittles God by claiming they have a one true prophet of God who speaks the mind of God but then they, individually, have to receive the revelation from God that anything the prophet says is true or opinion or mistaken. Who is the prophet in Mormonism? Or who are the prophets in Mormonism?
30) Mormonism belittles God by making Him either a liar or weak: “I will build my church” Matt 16:18 – if He builds it how did it stop growing long enough for others to kill off all the apostles and true believers? – or “the Lord added to the church daily” Acts 2:47 – if He adds the saved to the church then how did the enemy destroy faster than the Lord could build??? Great and Complete Apostasy? Really? God lost? Mormonism belittles God by claiming, admittedly implicitly, that God lost to evil men and spirits when He failed (or purposely gave up?).
stay tuned… (I’m sure there’s more)