Last month (30 January 2014) Newsweek published an article about Mormons leaving the LDS Church. Though Journalist Hannah Miet writes about some of the difficulties people have had in leaving Mormonism, she really misses the depth of emotional struggles attendant with becoming ex-Mormon.
Unfortunately, Ms. Miet devotes 25% of her article to something she treats as an amusing novelty: ex-Mormons learning to drink alcohol. And in so doing, she demonstrates that she really doesn’t get it.
The former Mormons interviewed for the article talked about their experiences as believing Mormons, as doubting Mormons, and as ex-Mormons. They told Ms. Miet things like:
“‘[Mormon] People intuitively know that first and foremost their primary identity is a nameless soldier in the army of Mormonism,’ said Chou… He stressed the importance of being ‘proactive’ in a state where many are scared to voice their doubts about the church, which has…a disciplinary council that can order an excommunication of any church member who strays, a modern-day scarlet letter that cuts a person off from all active LDS members.”
“‘It sounds crazy to outsiders, but simple facts have the power to shatter the world of a Mormon,’ he [Chou] says. ‘The more you discover…the more you are pushed closer and closer to this abyss and you don’t know what’s at the bottom of it.’”
“’I think everyone involved [in Post-Mormon support groups] feels more free to be who they are,’ Chou says, surveying the room. ‘One of the most harmful things about Mormonism is that it creates false [sense of] self in people and they have to live in that space. And they think that’s happiness. I did. I thought that was happiness. Once the veil lifts, you wake up and you just think, This is how life should be.’”
A non-Mormon social worker who counsels ex-Mormons in Salt Lake City also tried to help Ms. Miet understand some of the struggles doubting Mormons face in Utah:
“Deanna Rosen…did not come here to specialize in ex-Mormon issues. As soon as she moved to Utah from Texas, though, the doubters found their way to her earth-toned office. Rosen is open about her Jewish faith, which may have been a beacon for Mormons ashamed to discuss their doubts with faith-promoting counselors at LDS Family Services. Though Rosen insisted, ‘There isn’t a counselor in Utah who doesn’t get Mormons with questions,’ Rosen insists, adding that the ‘gateway drug’ out of Mormonism is Google.”
“Mormonism is an ‘all or nothing’ commitment, Rosen explains. ‘If Pandora’s box is opened regarding questioning one policy or mandate, it leads to more, because it’s all connected. It’s not like other religions, where you can accept some parts and reject other parts. You have to accept the whole kit and caboodle. You have to accept every [church-mandated] “calling.” You have to go to every three-hour church meeting. If I didn’t go [to synagogue] for six months, the rabbi would be like, “I am so happy to see you.” You can’t do that as a Mormon.’”
“Many of Rosen’s patients fear losing their jobs at Mormon-owned companies, where watercooler chatter revolves around bishops, youth groups and callings. ‘[Ex-Mormons] have to find new peers and new families, so to speak, and sometimes, new places of employment,’ she says. ‘Leaving the church is almost like going into the witness protection program.’”
Yet somehow the flavor of Ms. Miet’s article seems to convey the idea that post-Mormon support groups are really about nothing more than “recruiting” people to their way of thinking – and drinking. She writes,
“As a Mormon missionary, Chou converted dozens of people in the Hawaiian Islands. Now, as self-proclaimed ‘PostMo’ in the Mormon world capital, he uses his recruitment training to get people out.
“McKinnon, an engineer for the Federal Aviation Administration, was doing her own brand of evangelizing by slipping an identical card into every locker in the women’s locker room. She recently printed 10,000 copies.”
And,
“Some former adherents act like soldiers for an ex-Mormon liberation army, seeking out the doubters within the church, extracting them, and bringing them to more tolerant territory. They plaster their calling cards all over…”
The “calling cards” Chou and McKinnon use simply say,
“Are you questioning the Mormon church? Thinking about leaving the Mormon church? Already left the Mormon church? YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO IT ALONE.”
Ms. Miet reports that PostMormon.org also put up billboards. The billboards say,
“PostMormon.org: You are not alone.”
And ex-Mormon Becky McKinnon explains,
“We see that people really are trapped in [LDS]. What we’re here to do is to catch these people when they fall.”
Ms. Miet wrote the article. She could not have missed the kinds of words her interviewees used to describe living in and leaving the world of Mormonism. Things like:
- Primary identity is a nameless soldier
- Scared to voice their doubts
- Facts have the power to shatter the world of a Mormon
- Closer and closer to this abyss
- False sense of self
- Fear of losing their jobs
- Like going into the witness protection program
It’s pretty clear that the former Mormons in Ms. Miet’s article have lived through some very difficult experiences. They understand the agony associated with discovering the truth about Mormonism. They have suffered through the fear and loneliness that comes with doubting a lifelong faith. They have lived the humiliation of the “scarlet letter” inflicted on many who leave the Mormon Church. And because of their experiences, they want to help the people who are now where they once were.
Ms. Miet doesn’t get it. The Post-Mormon message is not, “We can teach you how to order drinks at both bars and coffee shops!” The message is, “You are not alone. We offer you a safe and supportive community as you work through your fears and doubts — and beyond. Do not despair. There is life after Mormonism.”
We Christians here at Mormon Coffee long for former Mormons to not only recognize life after Mormonism, but to find the abundant life, the eternal life, that Jesus Christ — who is Himself the way, the truth, and the life — holds out as a gift for all who come to Him.
—
Struggling with your Mormonism? Consider Christianity.
—
FOF
Do you even realize how often and to what degree you accuse others of doing what you yourself do constantly?
grindael, as well as others, have called you on this continually. It’s as if you read this and lacking any thing else to say, just turn the cannons on those who have made a very legitimate observation.
As far as “arrogant”. If you have read what I’ve written about the various types of Mormons one will encounter, one is the “arrogant true believer”. The characteristics of this type of Mormon fit nicely on you.
The LDS culture has a well earned reputation for being negative, hostile and down-right mean to those who leave the fold. John Dehlin, as I have pointed out, has made a crusade out of addressing this.
Just a small point – Kate’s experience shows us just how much we are ‘nameless soldiers’ that this article tries to say we are.
RickB,
I have, in the past, corrected a number of LDS who were wrong in their knowledge/position with statements they have made. But since I am not always able to keep abreast of this site I cannot do it all the time. So whether I do it or not does not mean I automatically agree with a member who replies on this site.
As far as my comment about your list of books, videos, etc you have and how much time, money and effort you (and others) have put in to researching this church, I was just reminding any lurkers out there who might think ‘wow that’s a lot I guess he knows what he is talking about’, that that is not the case. You (and the others) can have all that information but still be incorrect in your analyses, understanding and portrayal of this church regardless.
Falcon,
I do not claim to know everything so what is wrong with my statement that I am still studying and learning about my faith and religion? My sources to study from include but are not limited to the Bible, BoM, D&C, prayer and subsequent personal revelation, MRM site, Mormon Outreach Ministries Australia site, Utah Lighthouse Ministries, LDS home site, the LDS institute and Sunday school manuals.
I think it is important to remember the ultimate goal, as far as I can tell, of a ministry such as the MRM and Mormon Coffee. The most important thing is to bring people to know Christ, not just out of the Mormon program. Christ was agressive, and so should we. But we should be aggressive in a loving way.
Knowing Christ is something that I think is foreign to most Mormons. Sure, they have their definition of that and will likely say they do know Christ, but the knowledge I speak of is a much deeper relationship with Him. Its more than a burning bosom, and its more than a call to go do stuff. Its liberating and exhilerating. Its peaceful and beautiful. Its overcoming in joy and thankfulness. Its power in submission and love. It does not result in any feelings of duty or guilt, but it does result in a freedom of conscious and desire to do what is right.
Knowing that God is something altogether separate from us, yet his indwelling spirit in our hearts calls us to Him and a deeper relationship with Him. He is not a brother, or a groundbreaker on our way to hold a position similar to His. We know we can never be God, but we can spend eternity in His greatness. As our Creator, we trust in His goodness and that He will protect us now and forever. We know that good will not always follow us on this earth, but that everything that happens is for His good. We are patient in knowing this and rest faithfully in His plan.
We know that when we run afoul from this plan, we are fully restored through Christ. We know we ought not sin, even though we do. Our nature is fallen, and we realize we need Christ to restore us.
It is this knowledge that LDS don’t seem to understand. They seem to put their faith in their ability to work to earn salvation and forgiveness. The Mormon program seems altogether different from this understanding of God. Punished for not paying enough money? Scolded for missing too much church? Doubted for asking the wrong questions or drinking the wrong drinks? Do the rights enough times and you will be blessed, no matter how much faith you have….
Coming from a system like this, where one has given much time and effort, to something different can be jarring. An LDS posted in this thread how much he will miss all his “doing” if he were to leave the church. Precisely, but not completely. Not only does one lose his activities, but also his standing and confidence in any god or any program.
It does not have to be this way, which is why I think ministries as those described in this article are beneficial. Showing people that there is another way is hugely important.
God loves all of us, and wants all to know Him. Those who help others see that do not act maliciously. No, they act with love.
Ralph said
I notice something mormons do all the time, They in many ways claims they know everything since they are mormons, and we who are not Mormons no matter how much we study know nothing.
first off, FoF did state that people who leave the LDS church are uneducated and those who do join are the smartest people in the room. And now Shem your saying with all my studying their are things I dont understand, yet you claim your studying and learning all the time and implied you know what your talking about.
Here are my problems with what you guys say.
First off Jesus did make it clear people do not know and understand the Bible, you guys clearly dont by the fact you claim it is corrupt, yet you quote from a book you feel is corrupt.
Then here are a few things you leaders have said.
In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask’s BY a question.
Now why is it that if BY felt reading the Bible is so easy that it does not need any mans interpretation upon it and we can simply read it, then why is it we cannot do that with what your prophets teach?
Why is it your church put out all these books over the years, people buy them and read them, but Someone like me who reads it simply according to you cannot understand it? Funny how that works.
Here is something else your prophets said.
So if these things are so easily understood, why is it that according to you I am not understanding it?
Its strange how as I said, you have book stores and much printed teaching being sold and the only people who seem to understand these things are the people who believe it. how is that possible?
If you dont understand it and your still learning, how do you know the people you listen to as far as LDS go, understand it? What do you do when you have LDS who cannot agree?
I have given quotes showing LDS leaders contradicting each other many times, and I have pointed out LDS on this blog have not agreed with each other. If you dont agree, then how do we know who is correct and who is not?
Then someone mentioned Christs love. Ralph, Mormons simply dont have Christs love or even know what it is.
You and FoF keep telling us we are wrong, but you then judge us and claim, you wont work with us and show us how we are wrong because according to you guys, we simply wont believe.
Nice of you to judge our hearts and motives, then turn around and claim, were judging you and thats wrong of us. Talk about hypocrisy? Then instead of saying, ok lets work on this, you claim, you have told us before and we dont listen, so you wont help, and your to busy to help.
If your to busy to help, then you should not even come here, Your not busy enough to tell us were wrong, but to bust to tell us where and how we are wrong. Again, thats not Christs love.
Ralph,
I like that part about “personal revelation”. What exactly does that mean to you?
Would you agree that my “personal revelation” is valid? God has personally revealed to me that Joseph Smith is not a prophet, that the BoM is not a true historical account of an actual people at an actual point of time, that the LDS church is not God’s one true church and that the current LDS prophet is not a prophet of God.
God has also given me a revelation of His Son Jesus Christ. This was given to me by a prophetic message testifying to who Jesus is and what it is He has done for us.
My prayer for you is that God will personally reveal to you who Jesus is and in so doing you will receive the gift of eternal life that God is offering you.
First Timothy 1:15-17 says, “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen”
My prayer for you Ralph is that you will come to this “only God”.
Oh, FaithofFathers, how you simply don’t get it.
Your answer is that grace without works will NOT get you exaltation, so grace without works is not worth as much as you state it does. I understand your point about how grace drives everything, and without it nothing good would be possible. I understand how you put the savior on Christ, but the truth remains that withour YOUR works, Christ will not save you.
This MUST mean that you play a role, by your works, in your own exaltation. This becomes a merit-based system, not a faith based system, even though you state faith is a necessary part of it. You have to EARN it. There is no other way. You say so yourself: “Your ongoing question on grace- without works, a person cannot be saved or cleansed from sin or exalted. Period.” Since the works don’t do the saving without the doing them, we are in trouble. (So I am not accused of skipping a question, the one you ask about is what is addressed here and later in your own post, just worded differently.)
I notice a phrase in this sentance that is telling, too. Not only is one not saved without works, but without works one cannot be cleansed of sin. Do you mean to say this, since you go off on specific words?
Into that topic, its clear from your attitude you hold with great disdain, such that it is reasonable to assume you think such people are “bad”, those who participate here. Certainly, Christ’s actions involve far more than going after the Jews, but His entire mission was to point out how people have missed the boat when it comes to knowing God. This is true even in His miracles. Therefore, my description of that’s all He did is appropriate.
You seem to prefer the word “unhealthy” to “bad”. Fair enough, but isn’t something “unhealthy” also “bad”? Isn’t your insistence on correcting us or showing the other side just as unhealthy? And here we see an example of your dishonesty and hypocrasy. We’re all unhealthy for spending all this time criticizing your faith but you are healthy for spending all this time defending your faith against us unhealthy people. If we are so bad, so unhealthy, why worry about what we say?
See, you constantly accuse without seeing your own faults. You like to quote Christ when it is convenient for you, but you don’t seem worried about the plank in your own eye. You hold expectations that you yourself will not meet. Its not just me who is saying this.
You further state how fascinating human nature is without seeing that you are human yourself. This is an example of arrogance. You are arrogant when you call those who leave your church angry, uneducated, etc. It may be your opinion and your observation, but it is an arrogant opinion and observation. You further attribute lack of diligence in following the rules, ie reading, attending worship, etc. for those who leave your church. You judge their motives and their participation to the program rather than address their hearts. This is arrogance.
You above answered a question about what you would miss by stating that you will miss the participation and the doing, doing, doing. This indicates to me you simply like the program. It gives you comfort, and that’s fine. I can’t criticize you for what you like and where you find comfort. But I can, and do, tell you there is something better waiting for you.
If you see this as arrogance on my part, I can only state that this is God’s providence, not mine. I don’t make the rules, I only share them. When someone rejects my church or leaves it, I am not angry, nor do I call them uneducated or angry. I don’t know why they leave. I also know that God tells us there will be those who leave the church and his fold. Its sad, but that does not detract from who my God is.
God is great, and He has so much more planned for you than running around and doing. Greater comfort is found in something greater than following ritual. Greater comfort is found in the Arms of Christ, who is knocking on your door now. I pray you open it.
This is a subject that , as one who has never been a Mormon , I have little that I can add to
what Sharon has posted in this thread . So I appreciate our former Mormons on here , they
provide the necessary testimony that can reveal the truth about this issue . Otherwise I have
to listen to the rhetoric and one sided propaganda that comes from what Fof F offers on here
( consistently ) . He’s angry and has spent years attacking ministries like MRM who provide the
valuable information about Mormonism that the Mormon missionaries or the church P.R. Dept
are’nt in any hurry to publically provide or admit to that church leaders have taught so that
people are able to make a quality evaluation of their exclusive claims .
FoF,
How about you examine my words as well. I wasnt responding to something you said to falcon, so I’d appreciate it if you not insult my critical thinking skills. I am trying to demonstrate to you and others that people that spend their time complaining about the lds church do so because of how members did and still treat them. Most the people on exmormon blogs still have regular contact with Mormons. They are still exposed to the rumors, the criticisms, the emotional abuse… They have to regularly interact with family that views them as evil, weak, corrupt, rebellious, dark spirited. This isn’t about criticizing for the sake of being mean spirited and having nothing better to do. It’s about being abused continually by friends and family because of a belief system fed to them by an institution.
Also FoF,
This site is a ministry. It is preaching a different gospel than Mormonism. It is not here just to nitpick at Mormonism because everyone here is an obsessive, grumpy critic. It’s a site designed to bring truth and shed light on the falsehoods of Mormonsim. Your comments about how people here are obsessive and inappropriatly spending time criticizing your faith are just silly. Not only silly but hypocritical. Your Church has so many missionaries. What do you think they are doing? They are telling everyone that they are wrong. They are criticizing other religions. They are telling people they won’t be with their loved ones forever. They are telling them that their baptisms are invalid. They are claims sole authority to give blessings and such. So again, FoF , this is a ministry. Not just to criticize Mormonism because no one has anything better to do than criticize others. It’s about bringing people truth. So if you want to argue against the truth being presented here. Go right ahead. That’s great. It’s nice to have an opposing voice for people to see both sides. But drop the whole calling into question people’s motives for being here. It’s silly.
Fof,
My above comment is in response to you continually making statements to this effect,”It should not be “clear” that I think everybody here is bad. I think it is unhealthy, and that that part of your personality that drives you to spend your time bemoaning another religion is unhealthy. I have things about me that are unhealthy. I think this obsession is toxic to people- most deeply in those who spend their time focusing on the shortcoming of others and other religions. Yes- I believe a disciple of Christ is filled with love (that doesn’t make him stupid or ignorant), and is not driven to spend their time going after other religions. It is simply human nature. And that is my opinion and experience.
Jesus speaking to the crowds and his disciples:
11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. (Matthew 23)
Mormonism, is all about self exaltation. That is the whole point of the religion of Jo Smith. Oh, Jo talked a good talk. Here he is about self aggrandizement,
Now, where did Jo REALLY lay his head? In a Nauvoo Mansion. Where did Brigham Young lay his head? In the Beehive House. Where did John Taylor lay his head? The Gardo House. I can go on and on, and today, Mormon “prophets” are some of the most pampered men on the planet. Indeed, the words of Christ ring true here,
Where do the “authorities” sit at General Conference? In the special seats where they are in the “place of honor” and the “important seats” in the Tabernacle. Are the Mormon leadership “aggrandizing all around them”? Do they “share the wealth”? No. They are Corporate suits that have every need met. There hasn’t been a Mormon “prophet” that has not sponged off the Church since it began. Jo got paid by the church. Brigham Young got $10,000 a year in salary. So did all the rest of them. If Christ were here today, the Mormon Hierarchy and any others that live like them would be the first that he condemns. Mormonism is nothing but a giant pyramid scheme.
After over 150 years the Mormon Hierarchy still can’t live the higher law of consecration. Why not? It is the higher law. Why can’t they live it? Because of greed and self aggrandizement.
Think about this. When Brigham Young tried to reintroduce the law of consecration into the church again in the 1860’s, he chose a group of people to go and try it. He didn’t volunteer himself. He didn’t lead the way and command everyone, (including himself) to live it. Why not? Was he too good to do so? Or did he just not want to give up his kingly lifestyle?
This hypocrisy still lives on today.
FOF said,
Yes- if I left the church, it would require me to endure discomfort of sorts. But there is another side of the coin. I wouldn’t be paying tithing. I wouldn’t do home teaching. I would not spend many hours each week in my calling. I would not be spending time and energy doing a lot of things that are not easy that I currently strive to do. So please- remember balance, objectivity, and the need to see both sides of any given claim or argument.
I say,
So If I understand you correctly your saying that not paying your tithe and more free time “balance” the things that those who leave the LDS give up, things like estrangement from family and friends and fear of loosing your livelihood.
Recently I had a discussion with a Mormon friend who was having doubts and I asked him what he would be giving up if he accepted the Christian gospel .
He choked back tears as he told me that if he left the LDS it would be tantamount to admitting that everything he thought he knew about God his whole life was an lie.
Do you actually think a little extra money and free time would balance that sort of thing out?
By the way I would not be surprised at all if converts end up giving more of their money and time it’s just that as Christians they don’t think of such things as requirements for their exaltation.
If you believe you receive something for these things then your doing them is not a sacrifice but simply an investment.
Would you really consider it a “balancing” benefit to learn that you had wasted gobs of time and money on a worthless investment?
peace
I didn’t catch Fof’s commetn until fifth monarchy man pointed it out.
“Yes- if I left the church, it would require me to endure discomfort of sorts. But there is another side of the coin. I wouldn’t be paying tithing. I wouldn’t do home teaching. I would not spend many hours each week in my calling. I would not be spending time and energy doing a lot of things that are not easy that I currently strive to do. So please- remember balance, objectivity, and the need to see both sides of any given claim or argument.”
This comment made me laugh. It reminds me of something my dad said when I left the LDS Church. “Well, at least you will have more time on your hands.” I gave him this confused look. But I guess it must be a common Mormon thought. Mormon’s must think they are the only one’s doing any work. I am still just as busy as I was when I was Mormon in my Christian activities. I still give money to my church community and other charities, I still visit with people and talk about God, I am a Sunday School teacher ( there are also many other roles and activities people can volunteer for)… I’m not trying to brag about any of it. I don’t think any of it earns me salvation or activates God’s grace.
Fof’s comment is interesting. Why would he give up doing those things after leaving Mormonism. Is Mormonism the only reason to donate money? They only reason to get together with others and pray? Is Mormonism the only reason to be involved with a community and volunteer?
I second what fifthmonarchyman said, “If you believe you receive something for these things then your doing them is not a sacrifice but simply an investment.”
It sounds like you do those things for what you get out of Mormonism or else I’m really not sure why there would be the change.
It also very much saddens me that someone would think extra free time and money in your pocket would make up for the relationships that are damaged when someone leaves the LDS Church. Like that would make up for the pain of feeling abandoned by your family, friends, and community. That just clearly demonstrates that they just don’t get it. I know not everyone has a painful exit but there are thousands upon thousands that do.
If I hear another TBM say that the church is open about its history I’m going to barf. Literally. I will physically gag myself and vomit.
FOF,
Go sip some herbal tea with Dan “If any Mormon grows up and doesn’t know about polygamy, it’s his own fault.” Peterson. What a freaking joke.
The church even admits that it hasn’t been honest and forthcoming. Why do you think the anonymous essays have been put up on lds.org? I found out about the “controversies”in the church from FAIR and FARMS (which on the surface aren’t church endorsed). This led to my finding the truth and leaving the fraud of the LDS. The church knows that this was happening by the thousands, which is why they FIRED Peterson and everyone else at FARMS (thank you Dehlin!)
Now people are finding out about the controversial topics from the church itself with the new “essays”. These essays are a complete embarrassment as they undermine everything that LDS faithful have been taught for decades (the lamanite DNA essay being the best and most recent example). You might have missed the latest news article of the former bishop that talks about how the essays are throwing everyone under the bus. It’s going viral as we speak. The church thinks its inoculating itself but its doing just the opposite. Just with the monson fraud case the church’s PR department is doing everything “at all costs” to stop it from reaching chapel mormons ears. This is par for the course in the lds church which is hilarious since joey smith was the first of them all to cover his tracks when he burned the expositor for telling the truth.
As soon as word gets out about my leaving, I definitely will lose business. That’s not a maybe.. its a fact. Even my father warned my wife, “you know members aren’t going to work with you when they find out.” How sad that it doesn’t register in my dads TBM brain how cult like that sounds?
FOF, please stop saying ridiculous things by asking us how we were “deceived”.
When the church starts printing Ensign cover artwork with Joe looking into his hat and seer stone (which according to the essays was oh so common in 1820) then I’ll start calling the church “honest”. Although I’ll still use quotation marks. 😉
@orion
People on this blog are tip toeing around it but you use a lot of language in your comments that kind of makes you sound like a mormon. If you aren’t a mormon than pay no attention and I mean no disrespect. This has been discussed on other forums but mormons that pretend to not be mormon give themselves away by using language and phrasing that they don’t even realize is mormon. Example: “I’m not LDS.” Or “I don’t hold the priesthood”.
@everyone
I recently had a family contact me to let me know they were “taking a vacation” from the church. They trusted me in the past as I never judged them about their doubts. I was TBM at the time they first expressed concerns to me and I even tried to help them overcome their problems by directing them to apologetic resources and giving typical answers like a good mormon soldier. When I received the text from them about their departure I let them know that I was taking a “permanent vacation” from the church. They were shocked but happy at the same time.
I won’t go into too many details but they resigned a few days ago. unfortunately for them they couldn’t do so as quietly as I could with my family. They are being bombarded by members and leaders and the rumors are already flying. Everyone thinks they “were offended”.
The interesting part of this story is they confided to me that there are multiple families that want out NOW but are very afraid. When they told me who the families were I was surprised. Many of the names were the some of the big families in my ward. Some are afraid to come forward for fear of getting divorced or losing business. (what a shock, right?)
It’s insulting when TBM’s on this blog try and tell those that have left that their experiences aren’t the norm when they most certainly ARE the norm. Ex-mormons are shunned, we are insulted, and we live in fear over many issues (some of which are trivial, others not so much).
I never ever thought my parents would explode and speak to me the way they did when I told them I was leaving. I was more saddened that my parents fell victim to being “another mormon story cliche” than I was at their actual dismay!
But then again, what do I know since it’s just anecdotal evidence (backed up by thousands of similar stories).
Haven’t really commented on here for a spell but I had to throw down on this one. I’m officially declaring FOF, BCspace, and John O’fallon as the holy trinity of the online mormon defenders club. The only question is, are they three separate personages, or one in the same?
johnB,
Excellent post. You’ve captured the whole discussion.
FOF’s psychological mechanism is the typical one of “deny and attack”. He denies the legitimacy of the former Mormon’s experience and then subtly and not so subtly attacks them for leaving the LDS church. He’s doing the very thing that he denies is being done within the Mormon culture to those who no longer find the claims of Mormonism to be true. That’s what an arrogant TBM does.
If the Mormon culture wasn’t so messed-up and doing these things outlined by the article and supported by the real life experience of our former Mormon posters, why has John Dehlin made a mission out of confronting it?
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/
http://mormonstories.org/top-5-myths-and-truths-about-why-committed-mormons-leave-the-church/
A comment by one Mormon on the second link above:
“John…I am so appreciative of your work. I love the way the way that you present things as non-biased and admitting things that are difficult to accept and embrace. As I continue to navigate through my own issues and try and reconcile the doubts and fears I have, God bless you for your efforts. Many years ago, I used to think we were supposed to leave the “99″ and go after the “1″ but now there are “1′s” everywhere… there probably were all along, they were just silent sufferers. Honesty with oneself has to be step number one and I’m very thankful for this resource the the other resources you reference. Thank you.”
Did you get that part about “1” being every where. That’s the reality of what is going on in the LDS church. FOF can deny it all day long as he keeps his head planted firmly in the sand!
Ralph,
“Just a small point – Kate’s experience shows us just how much we are ‘nameless soldiers’ that this article tries to say we are.”
This isn’t exactly honest. They never paid this much attention to me while I was LDS. There were times when I was inactive and not a peep from them. The only time I was contacted while inactive was to bring food to a funeral. My mom’s side of the family are all active, temple going Mormons but my dad’s side are mostly inactive, which is funny because they are the ones who were with Joseph Smith from the beginning. Anyways, the church never pays any attention to them. You wouldn’t even know they were LDS. This is the way it is for most inactive people in Utah. The church doesn’t care much about you unless you remove your name. I will say that some inactive people do have fast offerings stop by once a month.
RickB,
The quote you gave is one that you have not fully understood.
Note what I have bolded. Here he is saying that we should not believe in a human’s interpretation of the Bible, but we should listen to what God has given to us in way of interpretation. Otherwise, if God hasn’t given any direction in interpretation we should just read the Bible and understand it as is. So the question is where do we get this direction from God as to the correct interpretation? From His prophets – or as it states in the Bible itself – holy men moved upon by the Holy Spirit. The ‘interpreters and expounders’ that BY references here are humans that are not guided by The Spirit.
You ask – Its strange how as I said, you have book stores and much printed teaching being sold and the only people who seem to understand these things are the people who believe it. how is that possible? Those who believe it and follow its teachings (note this is also important) are open to more guidance and learning from the Holy Spirit and can thus understand it more than someone who is sceptical, not trying or opposed to the ideology.
As far as still learning, have you ever opened the Bible and read it and then thought “Oh wow. I don’t remember reading that there before. It opens a whole new meaning up for the surrounding verses and chapters.” Or “Oh wow. I don’t remember reading that there before. That verse has now helped me understand that principle better.” The scriptures always have something to offer to those who seek regardless of how many times one has read them.
But to go on with the rest of your quote alleging that I judge you and others on this site –
Falcon,
What can I say? According to my beliefs you are wrong – according to yours I am wrong. Ultimately Heavenly Father will tell us who is correct, but right now, sadly, one of us is deceived and we are both fighting to save the other before it’s too late.
Ralph,
You can’t be that naive, or think that those here are. ANYONE can CLAIM to be “directed by the Lord”, and what do you know, they DO! This was only a limiting device, so only “authorized” persons could “interpret” the Bible the way that THEY wanted to. Now, we have evidence that Brigham Young’s words mean nothing here. Why? Because he taught that Adam was God. This was his “interpretation” on it. So, if you want to go with this, then hey, you MUST believe that Adam is your God, the same as Brigham Young did, because Young claimed to be “directed” by the Lord in all that he did when it came to the spiritual welfare of his “saints”. But let’s read on, in that sermon, shall we, because Young gets interesting, and lays on the “saints” some things that are worth analyzing,
How many Mormons today, are showing these “gifts” to the world? Giving prophecy about the future? Well, Ralph, please lay some of these “truths” on us. It should be easy for you, for FOF and others, since Brigham Young said it would be, and that THIS is what sets Mormons apart from EVERYONE else. In fact, the whole point of this sermon was that Mormons are so different because of CONTINUING revelation, yet you have Gordon Hinckley saying a hundred years later that you all have enough and don’t need any more. How many Mormons get up in Sacrament Meeting and claim, yes, I converse with Jesus personally, and he appears to me, because the Bible says that I can and he will, and it is PROOF that I’m following in the footsteps of the ancients. Then they prophecy to prove it!
But not ONE Mormon on this board, has ever appealed to this argument, instead they quote others who claim “the privilege”, but these men don’t really claim that either. They only claim to be “inspired” by the Holy Ghost, which anyone can do with no PROOF (as Young says TRUE Christians MUST have).
Mormonism today is NOTHING like Jo Smith and Brigham Young describe. There are no “signs” that follow those that believe. Not that have been PROVEN, as Young said they MUST BE, to show that you all are following in the footsteps of the ancients. Instead, they seem to have fallen back on the same made up Christian argument that Young condemns in this sermon, that you don’t really need scriptures anymore, you have enough.
Funny how that works, isn’t it? FOF dodged the question about the First Mormon God. How about you take that one on Ralph? According to Brigham Young, it should be easy for you.
But Falcon,
Didn’t you know that all the Mormons are happy little honey bees? That must certainly be an Ant* Mormon Troll that posted such a thing! TBM’s SUFFERING? It can’t be, it just can’t be, and anyone who says so is just wrong. They are just not following the program:
“We don’t know”. (But we are prophets who are the “Oracles of God”.)
“It is just folklore”. (See how that makes all the controversy go away?)
“Follow the prophet, even if he tells you to do something wrong” (That will ease your conscience now, won’t it?)
You get the idea. That is why they suffer. They are not following the correlated faithful history. Like Sidney Rigdon once said, once this happens,
Good for nothing. Funny how John Dehlin can help them and Mormon “prophets” can’t. Or rather… won’t. Try getting an audience with a Mormon “prophet” these days. Good luck with that.
Ralph,
Major mistake on your part. First of all, as grindael has so aptly pointed out, you are a follower of prophets who were totally clueless starting with Joseph Smith and his ban of merry men.
Secondly, if a person doesn’t apply some solid Biblical interpretation principles, they are going to go down the road with a whole lot of false prophets. David Koresh is said to have known the Bible inside and out and could quote it chapter and verse. He’s a perfect example of someone who can dazzle folks and in the end lead them to their physical and spiritual destruction.
Now as to which of us is correct in our revelation from God; the fact that you are following false prophets ought to be enough to convince you that the ever changing “restored gospel” is a farce.
Anytime you head down the road of special revelation and inspired personal revelation, you have the elements for swerving off track.
I got saved in April of 1972 during the Jesus Movement of that time. I believe it was God’s movement specifically for the Baby Boom generation. Anyway, it was also a time of growth for cults. What I noticed was that it was imperative that people exercise an extraordinary amount of discernment to not be taken in by false prophets and deceivers. Many of these looked good on the outside but it was just bait in the trap to attract the prey.
So my point is, what authority are you looking to for your information as to what is spiritually true and what is spiritually false. Mormonism is a very cleverly disguised counterfeit that claims living prophets and the authority of a devised priesthood.
So I guess my point is, if you are really interested in spiritual truth, you aren’t going to find it by depending on a false religious system. A false religious system produces false answers.
One of the things that I notice about Mormons is that they have an obsession with the “true church” scenario. As we’ve told you many times, the one true church is the one referred to as the Mystical Body of Christ made up of those who have been born again by the Spirit of God.
You don’t have to look outside the Bible to find out who God is and what His plan of salvation entails.
grindael,
John Dehlin is an interesting sort of guy. I’ve followed his spiritual quest and have wondered what he finally decided he believes. But what I got out of his Mormon stories quest and now his research regarding those questioning Mormonism, is that what he seems to be saying is:
*Respect those who are questioning Mormonism and the LDS church.
*Don’t be so quick to discount their questions and apply standard LDS labels to them.
*………and finally, don’t be so flippin mean to those who have chosen to leave.
What John doesn’t seem to understand is that it’s imperative that active LDS folks shun, ridicule, besmirch and if necessary chase down and make these folks relent and come back to the fold.
One of the things that I remember from Jim Spencer’s book “Beyond Mormonism” was the phoniness that exists within the Mormon culture especially as it pertains to putting on a happy face. Everything must look good on the outside. There’s a reason so many Mormon women need happy pills to keep them going. Check out the statistics on divorce with those married in the temple, child abuse and other social problems.
What the LDS church specializes in is teaching their members how to fake it.
Ralph,
This wont come as any surprise, but I will take issue with what you said.
You highlighted part of what I said and focused only on this.
Then you said
I’m guessing you dont read or know the Bible as much as you claim. The prophets did not go around holding Bible classes and telling everyone what the Bible said or meant. Prophets spoke for God only when God told them to. We read in Hebrews that God now speaks to us in these last days By His Son.
Now the part of my quote that you did not touch came right after the part you highlighted. It says
Notice BY goes onto say after what you highlighted, he says, we dont NEED interpreters AND expounders and that the scriptures are Literal and plain simple meaning.
Now as far as what BY said ,
If your going to claim something is directed by the Lord, then you need to prove it from the scripture, and what I mean is, if your going to say, Your scriptures, or your views are from God, or God said, then you need to prove it.
Because the problem I have with what you say is this. I have shown quotes from your prophets that you reject, Grindael has given quotes from your prophets that you reject. If you are claiming your prophets did not mean what they say, and say what they mean, then it’s on you to back it up.
You cannot claim I am wrong, and then for example Your prophet claims, If JS is a false prophet, then he needs to be exposed as such. Then you or FoF comes along and call us critiques of your church. Either your correct and were wrong, or your prophet was correct and we can look at the teaching of JS and expose him if he is false. You cannot claim we cannot do that, and your prophet claims we can and your both right. Now if you feel your prophet is wrong, then you need to explain why and how he is wrong, and if your prophets have claimed only the prophet can and does speak for God, then you need to also explain how your not a prophet, yet you can speak on Gods behalf and claim on of his prophets are wrong and you right.
Ralph,
You gave a list of your sources that you use in order to gain truth and understanding regarding spiritual things. Among those was personal revelation. Then when I challenged you regarding it, since I or anyone can claim personal revelation, you said we’d both contend we have the truth.
So what good is personal revelation I might ask? In your universe of understanding then, everyone has a valid claim to the truth based on personal revelation.
In the “name it claim it” school of religious experience, the practitioners are always touting “revelation knowledge. It’s the basic cornerstone of their religious experience. There’s a whole series of techniques that folks in this walk utilize to hear from God and to move in the arena of the miraculous. So given your perspective, the name-it-claim-it approach is valid. And if it is valid, why do you need Mormonism? Mormonism would be just one more religious system, among many, that a person could embrace and practice; no better or no worse than any other.
In the end, Mormonism would be nothing special, just different.
Why is it that I depend on the Bible and not other “scripture” or the spiritual experiences of others and why do I question even my own spiritual experiences? It’s because I believe that the Bible contains the whole counsel of God as far as revealing who He is and what His plan of salvation entails. I also know that the heart of man is wicked and it’s easy to be deceived and mistaken.
If we don’t depend on the Word of God for our source of truth, we will be like the Bible describes just being blown around by every wind of doctrine or the visions people claim to have had or a miracle they believe they had experienced.
Do I depend on personal revelation? Sure as long as these thoughts that I have floating through my mind are consistent with the Word of God.
Go to the Bible Ralph as your source of truth. Don’t look at the guys at LDS HQ in SLC for any guidance or as a source of truth. Unfortunately while Mormons think that their leaders would never lead them astray, they do!
MJP
Your comment February 13th wasn’t disrespectful at all. You aren’t the only one to admit your suspicions concerning me. I guess someone who doesn’t take a side makes people nervous. That isn’t my intent. I am just curious. I do have a bible but frankly it confuses me. I don’t read all to well. I listen to programs by various religions and many times they contradic each other. This is why I am seeking to find what is real and what is not. It seems like everyone else here is well educated and get offended or suspicious when I ask dumb questions. I haven’t been on the site for a bit so I can’t remember the last thing I will trying to discuss.
Ralph
This is why I wanted to say thank you for explaining on your post of February 14th your view in a clear manner that even an old lady brain like mine can get the idea. I have a better idea of mormon thinking.
Well, THOR, I’d urge patience when reading the Bible. Its not an easy book. I don’t know what version you have, but some are easier to read than others.
You ask what is real and what is not real. Here is what is real: Jesus, as God, came to earth to save you from your sins. He died on the cross as a substitution for your death. He rose three days later as evidence of His triumph over death. Faith in Jesus is all you need, specifically, faith in His atoning power, which is to say His power over sin and His ability to set you free from it.
Beyond that, there is room for disagreement. But Jesus’ identity as God cannot be altered, nor can His saving power in and of Himself. Anything that tells you that Jesus is not the God is not real. Anything that tells you that His grace applies only so far as your performing works is not real.
What sorts of things can we disagree on? ANYTHING beyond who Jesus was/is and what He can do for us can be disagreed on. Examples include but are not limited to: the role of saints in relaying messages to God, baptism, the Eucharist (communion), role of women in the church, the efficacy of works in the church (none deny they should be done, but to what extent, this does not mean that Christian churches find works save us (even Catholics)), age at which children become responsible for their actions, alcohol usage, loss of salvation, etc.
I could go for quite a long time about the differences that may be allowed. Nonetheless, depsite these differences, the similarities must be looked at, too. The common core of Christianity is found in the very person and God of Jesus.
Put another way, things that are real are the Trinity, the death and resurection of Christ, and faith in His saving power.
If you have questions on any of these, please feel free to ask.
I’m curious. Why would you state this ^^^ (that the Bible confuses you) and that you don’t read well, but you are so certain when it comes to things in the Bible (that you claim others are “twisting”) as you said here:
I’m not “offended” nor “suspicious”, simply trying to reconcile your statements.
Ralph said,
THEN, he said,
What qualifies you then, Ralph, to judge that those here are “incorrect” in our analyses? These kinds of blanket statements are simply made to try and broadbrush discredit those you don’t agree with. You seldom offer up any detailed analysis of what we say here, mostly, you just give your opinion and say you don’t know the answers to what we speak of.
So lurkers, I advise reading the information yourselves, and the analysis, and use your common sense. And when it comes to those that try and broadbrush, see it for what it is.
Thank you. I googled bible and saw that their are some that are written in more basic English so that will help.
On another point I have question that I tried asking before but didn’t get an answer to. I noticed it again in one of the above comments. We keep on talking about mormons from Utah. I found on Google too that mormons are an international religion with over twenty million followers. Is what people are saying for most followers in other countries and states or is it a culture thing in that Utah area? What bible do they use? I think this whole different bible thing MJP is teaching me about is interesting. Do different mormon around the world have to use the same bible? These questions are tied onto the thread because the examples are of exmormons and how they feel and are treated by mormons in Utah.
THOR,
Most Mormons use the KJV, the King James Version. I understand its usage is encouraged as it is seen as the most accurate English translation, despite evidence to the contrary. Do they have to use this? I don’t think so, but as I said, it is strongly encouraged. Versions such as the NIV, ESV, etc are looked down upon.
I can’t speak for everyone, but when I speak of Mormon, I intend to mean all Mormons, not just Utah Mormons. I imagine, but cannot prove, Utah Mormons may be more isolated and consistent in their beliefs as there is a culture that supports it, but all Mormons are nonetheless isolated and consistent in what they believe. For example, Ralph who posts here, is from Australia and there is little to differentiate him from those in Utah.
I prefer to use multiple Bibles when studying scripture. The different techniques and methods of translation help us get a better idea of what might have been the original intent. Bear in mind, newer translations of the Bible come with greater manuscript evidence and better understanding of the original language, which produces a better translation.