Men on a Mission

Men on a Mission AuditionA Business Wire press release dated September 10, 2007 announces an interesting new product that its creators hope will become the “must-have stocking stuffer of the year.” Mormons Exposed is producing and selling

“a steamy 2008 calendar featuring twelve handsome returned Mormon missionaries who have dared to pose bare-chested in the first-ever Men on a Mission calendar. Usually seen riding their bicycles and preaching door-to-door, the sexy new calendar celebrates the great looks, beautiful bodies and amazing stories of service of these deeply spiritual men.”

Returned LDS missionary Chad Hardy is the calendar’s producer and co-founder of Mormons Exposed. Having been raised in a sixth generation Mormon family and having lived in Utah for eight years, Mr. Hardy understands Mormonism and Mormons. Therefore, according to the FAQ page on the Mormons Exposed web site,

“The fact that twelve young returned missionaries are posing shirtless will certainly raise eyebrows, but may also help to sort out some common misconceptions about Mormons…

“Since the veil surrounding the Mormon religion can be difficult for outsiders to permeate or to understand, the humor of the calendar is intended to help debunk common misperceptions and dispel some myths about the Mormon religion — encouraging people of every belief system to be more tolerant of one another.”

The Mormons Exposed web site contains a couple of myth-busting options. One is a Men on a Mission fan club page, which asks,

“Do you have a secret missionary crush? Or do you think one of our guys is a total stud? Simply click on the box of your favorite missionary, enter your email address and click ‘vote.’ Once you vote, you’ll start receiving our newsletter and updates on your favorite guy! (Your information will be kept strictly confidential.)”

Another is an audition page which allows men (or women?) to fill out an application for consideration to be included in a future calendar:

“We are looking for fit, great-looking returned missionaries with amazing stories to tell for the 2009 calendar. Only 12 finalists will be chosen. Do you have what it takes?”

I have to admit, the Men on a Mission calendar certainly challenges some of my perceptions regarding Mormon missionaries. I’ll bet it challenges the perceptions of the folks at the Church Administration Building, too. But an aspect of it seems like a worthy endeavor; the calendar will generate money for charities (a portion of the proceeds will be donated), and will put a fresh, lighthearted face on misperceived-as-stodgy Mormonism. These are things LDS Church leadership would certainly support.

Hey — I wonder if all the members of the Quorum of the Twelve are returned missionaries…

Update July 14, 2008: On July 13, 2008 Chad Hardy, creator of the calendar, appeared before a Church disciplinary council. After Mr. Hardy explained his vision and purpose for the Men on a Mission calendars, the Church council ”still felt the calendar is inappropriate and not the image that the church wants to have,” Mr. Hardy said. After 45 minutes of deliberation, the LDS Church council decided to excommunicate Mr. Hardy.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Mormon Culture, Mormon Missionaries. Bookmark the permalink.

135 Responses to Men on a Mission

  1. jeff says:

    Woah! Looks like I need to hop on a bike and ride it for a couple years!

    I can just see it now. Biking all day, then going back to the tiny apartment, sitting on the bed, reading the Book of Mormon in one hand and a 30 pound barbell in the other doing curls..


  2. The iron rod is going to PUMP YOU UP.

  3. jeff says:

    Personally, I’m waiting for the “Relief Society Gone Wild” 2008 calendar.

  4. Rick B says:

    Jeff said, reading the Book of Mormon in one hand and a 30 pound barbell in the other doing curls..

    Jeff after a few curls you can move up to bench pressing the Golden plates. And Since JS was able to carry them under one arm as if they were nothing, he could spot you and maybe even bust a pose for the calender. LOL, Rick b

  5. Falcon says:

    Certainly has changed my impression of Mormon missionaries. What would that guy…..Sigmund Freud….is that his name say about this? Supressed something…..exhibitionsim…identity confusion. These are troubled young men!

  6. Rick B says:

    Freud was troubled. He was a sick man, I cannot believe people look to him as having sound advice. Rick b

  7. amanda says:

    i thought this site was meant for missionary work? last time i checked the bible, Jesus loved, and led…not made fun of. but there i go, forgetting that the Jesus i believe in, is different than your bad

    with that said, you can’t possibly take this website seriously, or this calendar…its obviously disgusting and a bit of a joke. now, you might have a point if it was put out by the church-this makes the admonition of the prophets to latter day saints (to be a light on a hill, a good example) even more relevant—these people apparently didn’t heed counsel-shame on them.

    aside from that, you guys are making it extremely easy to dismiss this site as pure gossip for bible-bashing evangelicals. how can one elevate the discussion on a superficial foundation?

  8. jeff says:

    did my last comment get deleted for some reason? If so, I would like to know why so I don’t unkowingly say something offensive. I myself thought it was hilarious, but I understand if it wasnt so for the rest of this community.

  9. Falcon says:

    Rick B
    Lighten-up, the Freud comment was a joke! As a token of my friendship I’m going to send you a copy of Freud’s dream interpretation book.

  10. mare says:

    so… my first thought, as a woman, is what would the creator (of this men on a mission) think of a calendar featuring sister missionaries in the same style? this would be my litmus test as to the “good nature” of its mission. my guess is there would be a double standard instituted.

    i get the light-heartedness and tongue-in-cheek of mormons and they don’t have to compromise their values. this product really seems to compromise a lot of the belief system of the lds religion, ie. modesty, lustful thoughts, etc.

    oh, and as a psychotherapist, the freud thing is just toooooooo easy. there’s so much more going on there that i see as one of the proofs this religion is not the truth. let’s raise the bar, folks. compassion for someone who so desperately desires to be liked (that they compromise their supposedly sacred value system) is sometimes harder to give than sarcasm and mockery.

    as a christian, i don’t desire for people to understand my beliefs but to know God. when someone truly knows God, whether or not someone likes/accepts him or her becomes irrelevant because he/she has already been accepted and loved beyond earthly comprehension. hallelujah!

  11. Falcon says:

    Come on, don’t leave me dangling here. Do the Freud Thing.

  12. CM says:

    Jeff said, “Personally, I’m waiting for the “Relief Society Gone Wild” 2008 calendar.”

    Thank you for sharing this absolutely hysterical thought.

  13. Alex D. says:

    Wait a second here…

    So, you’re telling me that LDS/Non-LDS women (and probably a few “guys”) are going to look at these 12 missionaries flaunting their six packs and immediately think of how great these people are for giving away two years of their lives to the Church?

    By the looks of the calendar, it seems that these returned missionaries (rm’s) are hoping to target a teenageC audience. Could someone with half of a brain kindly remind me what happens to a girl’s sexual desires when she reaches puberty? Ah… I get it… (Raging Hormones) (Sexy RM’s) = (Better understanding and “tolerance” of Mormons).

    It really is brilliant… use sexuality (potent and powerful of a tool that it is) to get teenage girls to drool over these heart-throbs, then couple that with tons of positive information relating to the missionaries (in order to show that the missionaries are “just like you and me”), and it’s not hard to see how being a Mormon would seem immediately appealing:

    “They take pride in doing wonderful things for people, they have wonderful family lives for the most part, and… they smile… A LOT… so they MUST be happy people all around. AND they claim that their religion is to blame for all of this? Hmm… I want to be happy and have a wonderful family life too! Sign me up!”

    And what about all of those Mormon guys who aren’t interested in looking like underwear models, anyway? Seems that this calendar discriminates against people with flabby abs, chunky faces, etc. (“you must look THIS good in order to have the honor to be next year’s ‘January'”). But I digress…

    mare makes a good point when bringing up how this compromises existing values among mormons… I guess the next logical step is to OK sleeveless shirts for women (oh no… not bare shoulders!!)

    Oh, and one more thing, mare… I’m all ears to “the Freud Thing” as well 😉

  14. mare says:

    thank you for your interest in the analysis. my point was more about as a christian to have compassion for the people who are involved in this very seductive (no pun intended… well, maybe a little) religion.

    think about God’s perfect plan of marriage and family… what happens when a daughter does not have a father role model? she goes “looking for daddy” so to speak. a son acts out and is ineffective in his presence as a man. i would apply this to the members of the lds church: i have experienced them like children without a strong enough (authentic) father figure. what happens when an individual lacks this security is they typically go searching desperately for approval. this is evidenced by changing doctrine (God’s word is unchanging and timeless) as well as this calendar.

    i truly love these people and want most to understand where they are coming from and love on them the way Christ has loved me. i have rarely met another contingent so large and so desirous of a relationship with God. however, i can only respect and honor where someone is at in their walk with God. i have never found mockery to be an effective persuasive devise in dialogue. i would imagine that this calendar could be seriously offensive to a lot of moromons and no laughing matter.

    i cannot “save” someone- that’s between them and the Holy Spirit. i do share my experience of God with others not just through my specific moment of clarity with Him, as well through my words and actions. i only hope that the spirit of love and grace comes through those and not a tone of judgement or condemnation.


  15. lillym says:

    I didn’t find this post to be very mocking. Perhaps you are just afraid that these men will be mocked when people see their project?

    And I’m new here, so I was shocked at this comment from Amanda:
    “bible bashing evangelicals”

    what on earth? As a bible-believing Christian, I’ve never seen those two terms paired together. And it seems so strange to me coming from a Mormon ( i presume?) who believes that the Bible is not accurate. I’ve been reading here only recently but it’s like swimming in a pond – everything is topsy turvy…Jesus is Lucifer’s brother? Joseph Smith got his revelations from some golden plates that vanished? (not clear on that one, btw)

    I’ve just been swimming in this weirdness for a few days, because I was curious after meeting a Mormon and having her say some pretty strange things to me. So I decided to dig a little deeper, since she kept harping on how she was a persecuted Mormon and how she was really “a Christian too”.

    So far everything I’ve read totally lines up with what I’m seeing from her. How would she feel if I said to her “I’m a Mormon”. And let her think I was her sister in Christ, only to reveal to her later that I think Joseph Smith was a fake and the BoM is blasphemy? Wouldn’t she be offended if I kept insisting “BUT I’M A MORMON TOO”???

    sorry for the rambling…like I said I’ve been swimming in this weirdness and had nowhere to vent about it!

  16. jeff says:

    Lets be honest, the makers of this calendar are using the LDS religion, or “God’s true church” as a springboard to selling calendars. That is sad. Because honestly, the calendar wouldn’t be half as successful if these were just ordinary “ripped” fella’s. There’s plenty of no-name guys with their shirts off on calendars. “Ooh, but we can make some money from the ‘ooh, naughty missionary’ angle.”

    That’s just sad. I really doubt any LDS/Non-LDS people look at this and think about the calendars supposed “statement” they are making and fall into some deep thought about it.

  17. amanda says:

    all of you are making a HUGE logical flaw…this calendar has NOTHING to do with the church. it’s some mormon guy who is, like jeff said, using this angle to sell calendars. it’s cheap, disgusting and FAR from what the church teaches…the church doesn’t control everything every member does, we can do what we please and still call ourselves mormon.

    i don’t even really know what else to say other than i thought you all were more intelligent than that.

  18. Robert says:

    I had to chuckle at the comment about the barbell curls.
    Also, about Joseph Smith with the golden plates under his arm running home.
    Has anyone thought of what these plates weighed?
    Given the density of gold, and size of the plates…they’d be between 185 and 230 lbs! Depending on how you understand the sheets and their thickness, etc.

    That a 15 year old boy ran with the weight of a grown man under one arm, at full speed all of the way home is not even possible!

    Any of the Mormons on this site wanna tackle that question?

  19. Lisa says:

    [Part of comment trimmed by moderator. Please stick to the issues and refrain from making uncharitable comments about others who also comment here. Thanks.] I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and I try daily to come unto Christ. The church that I belong to is centered upon faith in Jesus Christ…hence the name. The individuals who are responsible for the calendar have made a sad error in judgement by declaring that they represent “mormon men” the way that they really are…they represent themselves only in this. They are trying to justify what they have done in the name of Charity, and removing stereotypes. Whatever. They can spin it however they want to, if that is how they are able to sleep at night. It’s wrong, and they know it. I am really wondering how you are able to be so sure that the teachings of the LDS church are wrong? Did the Lord appear to you and tell you that the LDS church is not true? Where did you get your proof? You said earlier that this instance is just one of the many proofs that this is not the true church…so what are the other things that PROVE this in not the true church?

  20. Rick B says:

    lillym said How would she feel if I said to her “I’m a Mormon”. And let her think I was her sister in Christ, only to reveal to her later that I think Joseph Smith was a fake and the BoM is blasphemy? Wouldn’t she be offended if I kept insisting “BUT I’M A MORMON TOO”???

    Funny you should say that, I did a topic called (WHAT IF) On my blog. Pretty much I said, What if I put on a elder badge, dressed the part, went door to door and said, Hello, I am from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, but then told the Gospel I believe.

    Bible only, Jesus is God, always has been eternal, not the brother of Lucifer, grace alone, bible only, one God only, not Millions, we cannot become Gods, one heaven only, not three, Etc.

    Would the Mormons like me doing that? One mormon was not happy about my topic, yet LDS claim their Christians, yet clearly believe a different gospel, but they get mad when we point out the difference, they claim were hateful and attacking them.

    But I would bet my life if I did what I said in my What If idea, the LDS would be furious and ask me to stop right away. Any LDS care to reply as to if I am correct, would you be ok with me doing that? Rick b

  21. Alex D. says:


    I’m not Mormon myself, but the most common explanation that I’ve heard from Mormons for Joseph Smith’s ability to heave those plates home under his arm is simply this: God worked a miracle.

    Of course, Moroni “took the plates back,” so all we have is JS’s word as to how he was able to move the plates the way he did. Last time I checked, there wasn’t any mention by Joseph Smith regarding a miracle happening relating to making the plates “lighter” or easier to carry; I guess that much is implied. (And isn’t it also a miracle that Moroni was able to take them off the planet? Lots of miracles happening here without much mention of miraculousness…)

    Aaron — After watching that video, I’m unable to hold back my laughter. Funny thing it is when members of a church that is so intolerant to homosexuality decide to promote a product in such a way that would attract those very people. (And the music in the background… whoa.)

    Amanda — This calendar might not ever get promotion from the LDS Church, but saying that the calendar has “NOTHING to do with the church” is a pretty bold statement considering that these *AHEM* “12 returned missionaries” are making quite an effort to show their “mormon-ness” (via pictures with them wearing their uniforms, talking quite a bit about how the church has helped them to live better lives,etc.).

    I’m VERY curious to see what the Church has to say about the calendar in the future… that is, if they do happen to release a statement of some sort on it. I don’t see them making any public mention of this calendar if they disapprove of it though — that would only serve to create tension amongst the missionaries and the Church (and unwanted attention for sure).

  22. Alex D. says:

    Another thing real quick…

    mjc976 (a commenter on the YouTube site) had this to say:

    “These aren’t good Mormons. Missionaries teach people to respect their bodies as temples and as a gift from God, not to sell pictures of them. I was a missionary, we teach people to be modest, to not draw attention to their bodies in a sexual way. This runs totally against what Mormon missionaries teach.”

    Yeah… that sounds about right.

    (And if you have ANY doubt about the missionaries’ intent to “draw attention to their bodies in a sexual way,” look no further than the lyrics of the music in the background, found at the artist’s website:

    Here’s an example for all of you curious fellows:

    “Can you activate my body?
    Can you turn up the noise?
    Wanna see the sweat drip’pin’
    Off of all you naughty boys.”)

  23. amanda says:

    ROBERT, i’ll tackle your silly question. first of all, you should read joseph smiths account of his early history. he didn’t receive the plates till he was 18 or 23 or something like that…anyway, not 15—you’re cute though.

    ALEX– release a statement on the calendar? haha, are you joking?
    i don’t care if there were 78 returned missionaries alex, what they are doing is a mockery of their missionary mantle. because people IN the church make bad decisions and show serious lack of judgement, does not in ANY way demote Christ’s gospel. that’s like saying, well judas betrayed Christ even though he had a testimony of Him, that must mean that Jesus wasn’t really the Savior.

    should i list the millions of evangelicals who do even WORSE things then go to church on sunday, and somehow draw a conclusion that your beliefs are therefore false? that’s completely idiotic. if you don’t get that, then there is truly no hope for you.

    i’m glad though, alex, that i can now confidently guess your age to be at about 11–? in all seriousness, your logic is worse than a 6th grader.

    [Please stop the belittling comments. This moderator is just about out of patience on this. -S.]

  24. Lisa says:

    I have read all of your posts, and I posted myself, part of which was deleted for being “uncharitable.” That is really surprising since most of what I have read here is pretty uncharitable. From what I can tell, people come onto this site to bash Mormons and their beliefs. Christ taught us to love one another. To do good to those who despitefully use and persecute you. To those who would smite us on the cheek, turn to him the other also. We have all gotten lost in the quest to have our religion validated by others. I think what our common religion is here is a belief in and a deep and abiding love for Jesus Christ. Why don’t we just agree on that, and agree to disagree about how Joseph was able to carry the plates back to his home, and about whether or not “mormons” are Christians, because clearly, we are. We declare our belief in Christ in the name of our church. We say we believe in Christ, we have a giant statue of Christ in each of our Temple Vistor’s centers, which all the world are welcome to visit, and by golly, please for the love of Him, stop insisting that we are not Christian, because WE ARE!!!

  25. Ralph says:

    Robert, The question about the weight of the plates has a reasonable answer (if you wish to accept it) on the FAIRLDS website and I believe that Jeff Lindsay also has an answer. From their calculations, the plates would have weighed between 40 and 100 lbs (around 18 – 45 kg). They also have some quotes from witnesses saying that the plates were approx 70 lb (32 kg). These are realistic weights for carrying. But as you said, another answer was that God assisted him. He was given the promise that if he did all that he could to conceal the plates and keep them away from others that God would sustain him.

    Now I know most would say “That’s a cop-out” but when we look in the Bible there are many examples of God doing just that. Moses was on the mount getting the 10 commandments and he fasted for 40 days and nights. Jesus also fasted 40 days and nights before the devil tempted Him. Medically this is impossible – it takes about a week (little more) to die from lack of food, and depending on conditions 3 – 5 days to die from lack of water. Then there was Samson who brought the house down by pushing the 2 main support pillars apart – this is a superhuman feat. And a final example is the logistics of the Exodus. On one web page it states that for drinking water alone, the Israelites needed a train 1800 miles long per day, and they were there for 40 years (

    Yes I know you don’t believe in the LDS church, but we can use the answer that God has helped Joseph Smith to carry the plates because it is within Biblical parameters as well as the parameters of our faith.

    As for the calender – its just a publicity stunt for the creators of it. Its sad to see someone of the faith cheapen it this way.

  26. Seth R. says:

    I don’t know….

    I did lose a lot of weight on my mission. You look at pictures of me at the beginning of my mission and I’ve still got a bit of that high school baby fat – rounder face, etc.

    You look at pictures of me one and a half years into my mission and I’m a lot thinner.

    But I think “gaunt” would be a more accurate word. Dark circles under the eyes, rather tired and hungry looking. We subsisted on free bread crusts, rice, and ramen mostly and free mini oranges when we could get em.

    But man, I could bike 50 miles in a day, up and down hills, on that kind of low nutrition and not even notice. Days on end.

    I was a lot tougher then than I am now. More wiry.

    But I don’t think I looked anywhere approaching the pampered and sculpted look these guys are pulling. Missionaries are typically too malnourished, overworked, stressed, and lacking in leisure gym time to look like the calendar guys here. I’m pretty darn certain a foreign-serving missionary could never pull this look off, and I doubt even a stateside serving missionary could.

  27. Lisa says:

    Hey Seth-These guys have been home from their missions for who knows how long…I am sure they have been hitting the gym! Curious though-what is your take on the whole calendar thing?

  28. Seth R. says:

    I’ve got better things to get worked up over. Sure, it’s probably inappropriate. But it’s nothing really earth-shattering and mostly merely amusing.

  29. jeff says:

    I don’t know if I speak for all evangelicals on here, but I understand that the actions of these 12 men are not and will not be supported by the authority of the LDS church. That to me is a no-brainer. I know what standards you guys try and hold up to.

    The sad part is that who knows what kind of image those guys portrayed to the people they “taught the gospel” to. What would you think if you heard something “Godly” from a young man and later found out he was a chippendales dancer. (even though chippendales shows more than what these guys wear).

    And Lisa, there are some hard-hitting confrontations on here that one might take as “bashing”, especially Rick B’s. From his words, he is a no-nonsense, no sugar-coating type of guy. Honestly, I find that refreshing though. And he doesn’t build his argument on sand. All I’ve seen was him quoting what YOUR scripture states and what YOUR prophets say/have said, and show the contradiction. Stuff that makes someone outside of the box of Mormonism start to raise their eyebrow.

    Just remember my LDS friends. It’s not you personally that’s being “attacked” on here, its largely your leadership and theology. And if you don’t like that, maybe you should go to read some information that would be “comfortable”.

  30. Seth R. says:

    “Would the Mormons like me doing that? One mormon was not happy about my topic, yet LDS claim their Christians, yet clearly believe a different gospel, but they get mad when we point out the difference, they claim were hateful and attacking them.”

    Key difference Rick. We don’t go around saying we’re Lutherans. It’s right there on the name tag: “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and we usually identified ourselves as the better-known “Mormons” from hello.

  31. Rick B says:

    Seth said Key difference Rick. We don’t go around saying we’re Lutherans. It’s right there on the name tag: “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and we usually identified ourselves as the better-known “Mormons” from hello.

    Seth, you make no sense and do not understand the so called denomonations.

    You claim your a Christian, I claim I am a Christian, we preach a different gospel than you, the differences have been laid out hundreds of times. When ever a Christin Comes on here, he never states I am a Lutheran Christian, or 7 day Christian or whatever. We might have different demonations, but so do you. LDS have the RLDS, or the FLDS or other off shoot groups.

    The difference with us, it is a matter of Minor points. I did a topic to cover that all here:

    So again, if I were to say I am LDS dress the part with an Elder badge and Teach my Gospel which is different from your, how would that be any different from you guys claiming to be Christian? Rick b

  32. Tanner H says:

    I read this last night:

    And thought it was relevant to the topic at hand. Although I understand men and women think differently (I know, I am married *chuckle*), I still think this applies generally.

  33. Seth R. says:

    Rick, you have a monopoly on your denomination. But not on Christ, or the Bible.

    How is your portrayal of Mormon missionaries as fiendish mimics of true messengers any different from what the Catholic Church was undoubtedly saying about Martin Luther? You think they considered him an impostor? You bet they did!

  34. Rick B says:

    Seth said Rick, you have a monopoly on your denomination. But not on Christ, or the Bible.

    I never claimed to have a monopoly on anything. but as I said before, your gospel is different than the one I believe, do we have to keep pointing those differences out? I guess so.

    Lucifer and Jesus are brothers, Millions of Gods, 3 God form the Godhead, You can be Gods, Works after Grace, Bible is not good enough, need more Scriptures Etc.

    Christians deny all of that, even the Bible denys what you believe, Bible teaches Jesus is God eternal, Bible teaches One God, no others were or will be, Grace only, Lucifer was created Jesus was not.

    So again, the one verse LDS REFUSE to answer is Gal 1:8-9, if we both teach a different Gospel, who was Paul speaking to about a different Gospel and if Paul says they will be Damned and LDS admit, JW’s, Muslim, Catholic and others do not teach the same Gospel as LDS, What happens to them according to Paul in Gal 1:8-9.

    Then with the Differences I laid out between us, If you call your self a Christian and Get mad at us for saying your Not, why cannot I call my self LDS and preach the Gospel I believe that is clearly not the one you believe? You seem to beet around the bush and not give me a straight forward answer to that question. Why? Is it because then you must admit we have different Gospels?

    And then you will need to admit we both cannot be Christian, or am I simply missing something here, If so please fill me in to what I am missing.

    Jeff said especially Rick B’s. From his words, he is a no-nonsense, no sugar-coating type of guy. Honestly, I find that refreshing though. And he doesn’t build his argument on sand. All I’ve seen was him quoting what YOUR scripture states and what YOUR prophets say/have said, and show the contradiction.

    Thanks Jeff, sadly to many Christians want to be men pleasers and beat around the Bush, and give a wimpy gospel, Not me. Rick B

  35. jeff says:

    Just a question for everyone out there:

    I’m not to familiar with the many denominations of Christendom, but are there any that disagree on the major doctrine? (i.e. Only one God, saved by grace only, men do not become God’s)

    And please, don’t list off minor things that only really apply to our life on earth such as women pastors and what not.

  36. lillym says:


    you are not Christians. Here’s another good example:
    Let’s say that I believed that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon was divinely inspired.

    Then let’s say that I *also* believe that Joseph Smith was a space alien, and that he married Mary and had children with her, and these children are the ancestors of the Mormons.

    Now, if I went around calling myself a Mormon, and not pointing out to people that I believe Smith was a space alien who had children with Mary, would you be offended?

    Or would you concede that YES, I am a Mormon, although I have gained extra revelation concerning Smith that the other Mormons have not.

    Do you see?

  37. Seth R. says:

    “even the Bible denys what you believe”

    Says you.

    I’ve heard people go the rounds on Biblical proof texting before. You’ve got nothing there as far as I can tell. But it seems tedious to me to rehash it. Especially since the question is entirely tangential to the original post.

    “Now, if I went around calling myself a Mormon, and not pointing out to people that I believe Smith was a space alien who had children with Mary, would you be offended?”

    The question wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ll answer it anyway.


    All clear?

  38. jeff says:

    lillym, I see where you’re coming from.

    It’s highly offensive for some traditional Christians to hear of some other religion claiming to be apart of their “realm of faith” yet completely rejecting the core doctrines of traditional Christianity.

    An analogy might be: How would you feel if you and millions of other people started up a company and agreed on the major policy’s that the company should have, and then a small group of people that got hired into the company start taking over and completely reject what was founded years and years and YEARS ago. What if you felt the other people’s new policy’s were full of false information and bad business practice, and they even manage to “make it look like” the original policy’s in place but with “addendums”.

    Thats how I think “Christians” look at Mormons when they try and call themselves Christians. I can see why a smaller group of people would want to leech off a big/established company.

    So yeah, flip it around, my LDS friends, how do you feel about the FLDS or RLDS? Arent they also Latter-day Saints? If they put on the badges that just say “church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and went around preaching THEIR version of the Gospel, wouldn’t that irk you? You wouldn’t want their set of doctrine being confused with your own, would you?

  39. Seth R. says:

    “So yeah, flip it around, my LDS friends, how do you feel about the FLDS or RLDS? Arent they also Latter-day Saints? If they put on the badges that just say “church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and went around preaching THEIR version of the Gospel, wouldn’t that irk you? You wouldn’t want their set of doctrine being confused with your own, would you?”

    I don’t care if they want to call themselves “Mormons.” That angle doesn’t work with me.

    But your playing fast and loose the the distinction between a DENOMINATION and an actual RELIGION or religious tradition. Of course they shouldn’t represent that they are LDS. That’s because they are FLDS, not LDS. But if they want to claim to be Mormons, fine by me.

  40. lillym says:

    denomination = people within the same faith who have disagreements about details within the same scripture

    religion – set of basic tenets

    this is why muslims are not christians, too. Muslims may believe that Jesus was a great teacher, but Mohammed is their prophet and the Koran is their authority.
    same with mormons. mormons and muslims seem to have several things in common, the more I read here. They both created large bodies of laws to subject themselves to, after rejecting Jesus’s gift of salvation by grace.

  41. jeff says:

    LDS and Mormon arent the same thing?

  42. Ralph says:


    I knew someon who did not believe that the prophets from Willford Woodruff onwards were real prophets. When it came to sustaining the General Authorities at conferences he would always put his hand up in the negative. He also had a book called “The Second Book of Commandments” which comes from a splinter group of the LDS church. He was still allowed to remain a member as long as he did not teach his ideas from the book in an official church setting or tell people that they were doctrine. He did have limits – like he was not allowed the Priesthood or to go to the temple or to have a calling, but he could still say prayers and participate in classes. Its the same with other friends of mine who have joined the church later in life and have a smoking problem or cannot give up the social drinking. They can still remain members, just miss out on a few responsibilities/blessings. So the answer to your question is ‘Yes’ you could still be a member.


    From my understanding ‘Mormon’ was the name given to those who believed in the Book of Mormon, back when the church was first forming. So if the RLDSand FLDS (and other off-shoots) believe in the Book of Mormon then they can be called Mormon. This is why the church PR system have on the website that the church prefers to be called/refered to as ‘LDS’ or its full name to distinguish it from the others. The members have been asked to do the same which is why, if you read my posts, I try and do it.

  43. jeff says:

    Gotcha, thanks for the clarification Ralph.

    Let me ask a question of ya though. With your friend that you were talking about. Let’s say he did start teaching from that “second book of commandments”, and he still called himself a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint. Obviously, as you said, if he did that then there would be consequences, perhaps ex-communication I assume because he is adding what the LDS deem is false doctrine. Now imagine he cloned himself 2 million times and now, him and all of his clones are teaching that doctrine from that “second book”. Would it at all, personally, irk you a little bit that the 2 million people are calling themselves CJCLDS faithfuls? Let me ask that question to all LDS reading this, give an honest answer please.

    That’s how I believe a lot of traditional Christians feel when there is all this extra-biblical doctrine being taught, from a second/third/fourth book, by people who call themselves Christian. I personally like my faith to be distinct, but the LDS church is continually trying to erase the line between a Mormon and Christian.

  44. Ralph says:


    I don’t usually argue the Christian/non-Christian subject, mainly because its irrelevant to me. I believe in Jesus, that’s all anyone should know. Yes my ideology about Him and His teachings is different to yours, and when I talk to people I should delineate this, but I still believe in Jesus Christ. But I can see your point. Thing is, the word Christian in the Bible was first used by non-believers to denote those who believed in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. And still to this day, the non-believer community (ie the original definers of the word) define ‘Mormonism’ as Christian (albiet a sect or off-shoot) because we believe in Jesus Christ. It is the Traditional Christian community which has ‘changed’ the meaning of Christian to denote those who believe in the Trinity. So either way – it doesn’t bother me, its just a ‘tag’.

    As for your question about the CJCLDS (btw what does CJC mean?), if they refer to themselves as that or Mormon, and not LDS, then I will have no problem. Just as long as the difference is delineated. Yes it would irk me a bit, but they have their freedom to believe what they wish and I what I wish.

    Just a quick question about one of your earlier comments. You said that most Christendom agree on the major doctrine – do you consider those who believe in Modalism Christian? If so then there is a major difference in the doctrine of the character and being of God right there. If not, what would you ‘classify’ them as, because they still believe the Bible, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit?

  45. jeff says:

    CJCLDS = Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I guess I could have used LDS for short, heh. Thank you for your honest answer. I feel that its sometimes necessary to put yourself into another persons shoes to feel what they feel. For an evangelical to just say “LDS aren’t Christians!” could come off rude. The real thing that should be discussed is “why” Christians say that.

    As for your question, my personal belief is that the Holy Trinity is 0 truth coming from the Bible itself. If one doesn’t believe in it, I would have a hard time calling them Christian. I honestly don’t have an answer as to what they should be classified as. I would prefer that they call themselves something different so as not to create any misconceptions within the membership of their church.

  46. Ralph says:

    Well Jeff,

    I guess we can call Christianity (your definition) the God Squad and the calender boys in this blog are the Bod Squad, then that leaves us with the Modalists as the Mod Squad – but what does that make the LDS?

  47. amanda says:


    i realize you try your best to control the tone on this site-as one-sided as it may be. that is completely your prerogative, obviously.

    with that said, don’t be surprised at the response you get to your queries and accusations—it is merely the fruit of the tree you planted.

    so bleep what people say, sure…but please don’t be surprised that you fostered such a reaction to begin with. if you desire a cute little club that mormon-haters can join, log in, and chat it up with all their other mormon-hating friends..then do that…but don’t allow us to post under false pretense that we are moderated under the same rules as the true “Christians”–then bleep what we say like we’re a bunch of swearing inbreds. just a thought 🙂

    grace and peace in Christ II, or number III (sorry, i forgot, are we II and jehova’s are III?–you need to have some kind of manual on this)

  48. Craig says:

    So how does this calendar fit with the Mormon underwear requirement?

  49. Ralph says:


    Plain and simple – it doesn’t really unless they are preparing to go for a swim, or play a sport. But the wearing of the garments is left to our own conscience and between us and God.

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