Hiding Behind Skirts

Todd Wood writes,

“I am telling you guys, a real LDS general authority or better yet, an LDS apostle, needs to start blogging. Where are the bold prophets and apostles for times like these in America? Can you imagine if the prophet Isaiah or apostle Paul lived in 2008? Would they be crying out, ‘Someone hand me the keyboard! I want to share some truth unapologetically on the matter!'”

This reminds me of the way the men of the YFZ compound have for the most part used the women as the public voice of the FLDS. Instead of exercising their God-given role of leadership, they have been, as Mary Mackert put it, hiding behind the skirts of their wives. Likewise, mainstream Mormon leaders continue to, for the most part, hide behind the skirts of FAIR, FARMS, and the common layman instead of using the God-given medium of the internet to make the LDS institution’s authoritative, official voice loud and clear and unequivocal on pressing issues.

M. Russell Ballard, I’m talking to you. While you understandably call upon your membership to use the internet to spread the message of your mainstream sect, your quorum cowardly hides behind unofficial voices for the majority of compelling issues. Be a man and start wearing some institutional pants. Start a blog and put an official stamp on your posts. Allow me to suggest some topics for your initial blog posts:

  • Was God the Father potentially once a sinner? Does the mainstream Mormon sect provide rock-solid, official assurance that God the Father never sinned?
  • Are the main tenets of Spencer W. Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness spiritually oppressive and unbiblical? Was Kimball correct in saying that “trying” was insufficient, and that only successful, permanent, comprehensive abandonment of sin (from practice and the desires of the mind) brings complete forgiveness?
  • Can “virgin” be redefined to refer to one who has not had relations with a mortal man, although perhaps has had relations with an immortal man?
  • Was not only the priesthood ban, but also the Curse of Cain teaching, erroneous and dishonorable to God? Why doesn’t the mainstream Mormon institution issue a public declaration unequivocally condemning the Curse of Cain teaching?
  • Was Brigham Young right to cover up Mormon involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Praying for your repentance,


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73 Responses to Hiding Behind Skirts

  1. clarity67 says:

    You believe that obedience (or showing forth good works) is an after affect, or an outgrowth of “the salvation event, or a confession of belief,” while we believe that obedience is the first law of heaven and it is the UNQUALIFIED expectation of Almighty God for us to love Him and keep His commandments.

    Christians know that it is impossible to live the law of all the commandments. Regrettably, Mormons do not and Mormon doctrines don’t allow them to fudge on not living all of them.

    Wrong. Did you read my post? This is precisely my argument from the beginning. And Mormon doctrines do not allow what? Please!

    I did read the verses in Hebrew, but I read them in the complete context in which they were written. Paul is explaining that the Savior’s sacrifice is the final sacrifice that supercedes and covers all that no other sacrifice (burnt offerings, for example ) are needed since His is the only one that can take away sins (v12) and it has been done once for all (v10).

    He has perfected us by his offering, not us perfecting ourselves by doing good works and going through religious rituals. Heavenly Father sent Jesus here not to show us how to be perfect, but to be perfect for us.

    Not quite. The scriptures say differently.

    1 Pet. 2: 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    John 13: 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

    This, obviously, does not imply that we COULD exactly follow in His steps, but that we diligently obey and then the Lord alone is the author and finisher of our salvation (Heb 5:9 , 12:2) And how can one be already perfected if you still walk in sin? Will you please define sin for me since you seem to have a massive disconnect here?


  2. clarity67 says:

    Regrettably, Mormon doctrine and the official words of the prophets don’t allow fellow Mormons to have the perfection that Jesus gives us alone and completely. It’s all about the Mormons part in helping Jesus out with their works and efforts.

    WRONG!! When will you stop perpetuating this lie?? Nobody can help Jesus do something that He has already done. We do not help Jesus with works or efforts. As if ?
    You mock God to suggest that He needs our help with anything and misrepresent us (LDS) to suggest that we believe the same, we do not and you know it.

    Mormons think perfection is a process. Matthew 5:48 doesn’t say it’s a process. What does 3 Nephi 12:48 and Matthew 5:50 (JST) say? Be ye perfect. It’s not a process. It’s a command for right now. Either we are or we are not.

    This is a flawed conclusion, “either we are or we are not.” The command to be perfect remains, to that there is no dispute. But to suggest that we are completely perfect or absolutely not perfect ignores the obvious.

    For example, I can be perfect in some ways without being perfect in every way. I can pay my tithing and be perfect in that regard. I can abstain from taking the Lord’s name in vain, stealing, killing, committing adultery, coveting, etc. and in those areas I can be perfect. Other areas such as fully loving God or loving my neighbor, or another thing that may be a more subjective judgment as to my conduct, I leave such judgment to Him. This is precisely why your theory is backwards because it negates the necessity for one’s personal obedience.

    Now, a couple questions for you: Explain to us the parable of the ten virgin and what is represented by the oil in the lamps of the wise virgins. Also, please expound to us your reading of the parable of the marriage of the king’s son and the significance of the wedding garment in verses 11 and 12?

    Humbly await your response.

  3. Lautensack says:

    You wrote, This, after we (1) come to Him, (2) deny ourselves of all ungodliness, (3) and love Him…THEN (the operative word here,…THEN) is His grace sufficient for you that by His grace ye may be perfect in Christ.
    According to your interpretation of Moroni 10:32 do you know of anyone who has ever denied themselves all ungodliness?

    You wrote, This, obviously, does not imply that we COULD exactly follow in His steps, but that we diligently obey and then the Lord alone is the author and finisher of our salvation (Heb 5:9 , 12:2) And how can one be already perfected if you still walk in sin?
    My question for you is how is Jesus the Author and Perfecter of our Faith if we add to His authorship or Perfecting work through works or obedience or what have you? As to your question it is based upon the false premise that Christians continually walk in sin. We walk in Christ and fall in sin, then Christ picks us back up and we continue to walk in Him, “How can we who died to sin still to live in it?” Now that of course seems like a cop out answer, I agree. However if a false view of God is up held, namely one that is built on the supposition that God is within time, not the creator of it, then men already perfected yet being sanctified, thus not perfect, is utterly ridiculous. However this also comes from a failure to acknowledge of Justification by Faith alone. You see when one combines Justification, that is the legal declaration of Righteousness imparted to sinners, with sanctification, that is God working in and through the sinner to conform him to the image of Christ. You see by grace through faith we are declared righteous, perfect, by God (justification, Rm 4:5) then by grace through faith we continue to grow in righteousness. (sanctification, Eph 2:10) Thus any who are being sanctified are already perfected before God. Frankly our sanctification is the evidence of our justification, yet not all who do “good works” are justified.


  4. Berean says:


    I am enjoying the interchange and dialogue that we are having here. However, and I will be honest, I feel crippled by the format of this blog because I am new to it. I’ve been here for about two weeks now and still don’t know how to do certain things within it (underline, emphasize, italics, move quotes, etc.). I am also limited to three posts a day and a certain number of letters per post. I will attempt to go through all of this, but it will be difficult on this format and with the amount of free time that I have. If you are interested in exchanging emails that would be great where I can type freely and supply you with many, many pages of Microsoft Word documents with hundreds of quotes from LDS authorities that I have typed out from my Mormon library. We can go through them word by word if you like. Let me know if you are interested.

    I see that you like calling me a liar and even though I don’t care for the accusation, I have learned to expect it. I’ve had Mormons yell, cry, pound the table and even take my papers on a table and throw them in the air just because I read to them from the Bible and showed them or read LDS quotes. I can assure you that I would not waste my time coming on here and putting forth lies to the people that I care so much about (the Mormons!).

    You said, “Correct, Jesus has offered the great and final sacrifice for sin. Correct, the atonement is absolutely complete and Jesus need do nothing more, and obviously, nothing we can do will add to HIS work or sacrifice – it is perfect.”

    If that is your position, how can you then turn right around and start talking about YOUR part that you play in anything. After all, “Gospel Principles” on page 19 states: “When he became our Savior, he did his part to help us return to our heavenly home. It is now up to us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation.” Do you believe that? If you do, then you contradict yourself in your earlier statement.

  5. Berean says:

    Part 2

    I’m going to try to make this real simple. The difference between Mormonism and Christianity is that in Christianity, we don’t play any part in anything when it comes to our standing and being justified (declared “not guilty”) before Heavenly Father other than our belief and repentance. We have nothing to with Christ’s atoning work for us. There is absolutely nothing we can do. Christians are commpletely surrendering over it all to Christ. What could we ever do to assist Jesus in anything? What is the Christian’s “after all we can do”? Nothing! There is nothing we can do. We are “filthy rags” in His sight apart from Him. Our works and half-hearted obedience are disgusting in His sight when we have the mindset that we are involved in the process or think we have any PART of anything with our standing before Him.

    Christianity stands firm on Ephesians 2:8-9 while Mormonism stands firm on 2 Nephi 25:23. Do you believe what that verse says? How do you know when you’ve done all you can do? When is all you can do enough and how much is required on your part? If you do, then you fall in the trap of trying to play a part in what Christ can do fully without you being involved. Again, you have nothing to do with your placement before Heavenly Father. Mormonism is a man-based religious system focused on your personal merits and works playing a part in the salvation process. This is an abomination in His sight when you try to offer anything to Him apart from what the Son fully gives without you playing any role.

    I know this is hard to grasp because it goes against everything that you have learned in Mormonism. However, this is the simple message and good news of the gospel as put forth in the Bible.

    Moroni 10:32…I know this is authoritative to you so let’s talk about it. There are two words I want you to recognize in this verse. They are the words “IF” and “THEN”. In Christianity, there is no “IF” and “THEN”. (Part 3 next)

  6. Berean says:

    Part 3

    Do you realize that your hope for eternal life is dependent on the word “IF”? I am saddened for the Mormons on this point. In Christianity there is no “IF” and “THEN”. I know that if I were to die right this minute that I would be in the arms of Christ and have full access to the Father. Can you say that? Do you have that assurance?

    Ask yourself these questions about Moroni 10:32. What are the requirements for Christ’s saving grace found in this passage? When does Christ’s saving grace apply? What would your life look like if you denied yourself of all ungodliness? (Perfect!)

    And 2 Nephi 25:23? When does Christ’s saving grace apply? What is all you can do?

    Alma 11:37? What does it mean to be in your sins? What is the opposite of “in”? If Jesus won’t save you “in your sins”, then what condition must you be in before he will save you?

    D&C 1:31-33? What does this mean? What sins will he allow? What are the 5 steps to repentance?

    D&C 82:7? After you have supposedly repented, what happens if you commit the same sin again?

    This could go on and on and shows how the Mormon gospel is the “impossible gospel”. What is the similarity of all the above verses? It has to do with man being involved in it. Mormonism is a man-based religious system of personal merits and works that are required for eternal life and one’s salvation in standing before God. This is an abomination to God because He has already simply put forth all that is needed for gaining acceptance by Him.

    What does obedience mean for the Christian? Christians will obey, but not in the way that Mormons think about it. Christians obey because we love Jesus Christ for doing for us what we could never do in any part of our own: giving us access to Heavenly Father. We freely serve and obey for what has already been done – not for what we are trying or hoping to gain on our own merits aiding Christ’s work to be with Heavenly Father as viewed by Mormons.

  7. Jeffrey says:

    Sometimes, its the hardest thing for humankind to realize that there is nothing you can do for your situation, but believe and and love your Savior. To completely humble yourself before God, and submit the the divine power of our Father in Heaven.

    To add to the point Berean is trying to make, there is a passage that I thourougly enjoy in the Bible that gives me strength.

    Ephesians 2:5
    “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved”)”

    If you are dead, theres nothing you can do. You can’t even begin to struggle to break free from this death. God sent his Son, Christ Jesus to ressurect us. Believe in the promises of our Lord that he WILL save us. And when you rise up from the ground, give glory to your God. Do good works BECAUSE you are saved, not to become worthy because you are ALREADY worthy because of the blood of Christ.


  8. clarity67 says:


    The answer to the question we are discussing is found in a very simple account in the scriptures. Remember a certain rich ruler who came to the Savior and asked a very telling question, “… Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

    18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

    19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, defraud not, honour thy father and mother.

    20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

    21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

    22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

    He asked “what shall I DO?? DO??” and the Savior goes immediately to OBEDIENCE! of the commandments. Then, (knowing the heart and mind of this young man) what does he ask him to DOOO? He answers essentially “give up your possessions and follow me.” Was this a test? You bet it was, to see if he would choose the Savior over himself and submit to follow whatever He was asked TO DO!!!

    Now, I ask you, according to YOUR version the gospel, the Lord should have responded with something that resembles the following: “well, my friend, haven’t you heard? Eternal life is free, why askest thou me what thou must DO, for I have overcome the world for all so that you need do nothing, but have faith. And by the way, I ‘m not concerned about what commandments you have kept because (Berean’s words) you cannot really merit any favor in my eyes by your works”. Can you possibly imagine the Savior responding like this? NO. And, indeed, He did not. Yet, this is exactly the view of the Lord that you speciously purport and would have us believe.


  9. clarity67 says:

    Berean contd. (2)

    Isn’t it also significant that the young man correctly assumed (common sense must have gotten the better of him, imagine that-(sarcasm intentional)) that, yes, something was required of him TO DO in order to obtain eternal life. What‘s more, the Gospel according to Matthew states that the Lord said to him, “If thou wilt be PERFECT, go and sell that thou hast……. (see Matt 19:21) – particularly pertinent to our dialogue.

    Incidentally, in all three accounts, (Matt 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18) he stands uncorrected by the Lord in this assumption, and in fact, he is vindicated with the Lord’s admonition to ACTION. You have incorrectly concluded that obedience to the commandments is, somehow, a vain attempt at trying to add to, or otherwise supplement, the Savior’s atonement- this is where you do err. Our assertion that the Lord’s grace is effectuated in our behalf only “after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23) is confirmed by this instance.

    Still waiting for the answer to the questions I asked about the five virgins’ oil and the wedding garment in Matt 22:11-12.…


    So that we may more clearly address the issue at hand will you please define “sin”?

    After that, we may have a basis to discuss how, or whether, we walk in sin, walk in Christ, walk in His perfection, etc., or not.

  10. Lautensack says:

    The bible defines sin in a number of ways. Falling short of the Glory of God (Rom 3:23) anything that does not proceed from faith (Rom 14:23) knowing the right thing to do and not doing it (Jas 4:17) Lawlessness (1 Jn 3:4) wrong doing (1 Jn 5:17) rebellion against the LORD God. (Dt 9:7) Furthermore all of mankind has all have sinned (Rom 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath.(Eph 2:3) Thus for our sake a working definition for sin could be any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature.

    Will that suffice?


  11. Berean says:


    The answer to the issue and questions regarding Matthew 5:48 is in Hebrews 10 – not in Matthew 19 or 22. I know Mormons don’t like Hebrews because they aren’t familiar with it and especially avoid Hebrews 7 where it completely debunks any Mormon’s idea of having priesthood authority.

    Christians know that no human being can be perfect in this life (1 John 1:8). No human being can attain sinless perfection in this life. What I’m trying to relate to you is that a Christian obtains the status of spiritual perfection as seen by the Father because Christians are trusting in Jesus and Jesus’ perfection becomes ours. Look at the verse again:

    Hebrews 10:14: “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”

    Who are the sanctified? The believers in Christ! The Christians! How? Look at verse 10.

    Hebrews 10:10: “We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all.”

    Christians believe in obedience. Any so-called believer in Christ who sins thinking they have a free license to do whatever they want has not been spritually regenerated and the truth is not in him/her. They are only deceiving themselves. Christians will obey because they want to because of what Jesus has done for them and because they have the Holy Ghost (Spirit) in their lives that direct them and convicts them of sin DAILY. Christians need to daily repent because we are sinning even when we don’t know about it (Psalms 19:12). When a believer continues in sin they grieve the Holy Ghost and come out of fellowship with God losing the blessings that could be in their life. God will chasten those that are His until they come back to Him in repentance.

    Do you think this is my personal view of the text stated above? You think this is “Berean’s gospel”? Why haven’t any of my brothers and sisters in Christ come out on this blog and rebuked me for my stated position? What I have presented to you is orthodox.

  12. Berean says:


    Clarity67, do you really expect to understand the deeper parables of Jesus when you can’t even get a handle on the simplicity of scripture in the KJV Bible that refutes the Mormon gospel and the Mormon belief system of works accompanied by grace as a means of spiritual progression?

    You have got to get a handle on Isaiah 64:6; Romans chapter 3; Romans 4:1-5; Romans 11:6; the book of Galatians; Ephesians 2:8-9; Matthew 5:48; Hebrews 10:10-18 and others that refutes any idea that man may have of pleasing God in any way by his works. You don’t like the Bible’s view of this? Will the JST suffice?

    (JST) Romans 3:28 – “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ALONE without the deeds of the law.”

    Your understanding and vision of the Bible is obscured because you are being led by the spirit of Mormonism – not the Holy Spirit of the Bible (2 Cor 11:4). You are spiritually blinded (2 Cor 11:4). I say that not to anger you, but out of concern and because I care about the eternal place where Mormons are headed if they continue in Mormonism – outer darkness.

    Mormons love to play “Bible hopscotch” when they become uncomfortable with a Bible text that doesn’t suit them. The parables of Jesus are great to study and talk about and I can and would love to discuss them with you. However, until you come to terms with the simple things first of scripture we cannot move forward to the deeper things.

    Here is a phrase you should be familiar with:

    “Milk before meat”

  13. eric017 says:

    Berean’s asked: “Why haven’t any of my brothers and sisters in Christ come out on this blog and rebuked me for my stated position?”

    Because as Christians, regardless of denomination, your position regarding sin, works, grace, and salvation is correct.

    To a Christian, the most important thing in our lives is our regenerative relationship with Christ, our God. We fundimentally understand that it’s all about what He did, and not about what we must do. At the end of the day, we are sinners. Period. He did what we have no ability to do.

    Over and over on this blog it comes back to this issue of grace. Christians from all walks of life and denominations recognize the wonderful miricle of grace. How? Because we have seen it work in our lives after our acceptance of the gift of grace. We see ourselves as nothing without Him. We give all glory to Him, and we see our lives change through believing in Him. We are convicted to share His message.

    When we hear someone say something different, we recognize that is a different gospel. We recognize that another gospel won’t work. Again, if we ignore for a moment all the problems within Mormonism regarding the need to believe in so much extra-biblical stuff and focus on this one issue of how Christians and Mormons approach Christ we can see the counterfeit right away. Mormons hope for salvation after a life long journey on the treadmill of repentence and self-failure. Christians know we are saved in spite of our sins, not because of anything we do or did. We are saved because our God, Jesus Christ, Creator and Saviour, came to earth, took on the flesh and died for us. We take offense when the LDS church insists that thier ‘true gospel’ insists on adding on works to what we know our God did for us. Through this issue alone, the LDS church in thier own doing, removes themselves from the body of Christ. It isn’t Christian bigotry that keeps Mormons from being Christians, it’s thier insistance on belief in a false gospel.

  14. clarity67 says:


    You said,

    You have got to get a handle on Isaiah 64:6; Romans chapter 3; Romans 4:1-5; Romans 11:6; the book of Galatians; Ephesians 2:8-9; Matthew 5:48; Hebrews 10:10-18 and others that refutes any idea that man may have of pleasing God in any way by his works.

    A little Bible hopscotch for you, since you enjoy it so much.

    Col. 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

    1 Thes. 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

    Col. 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord

    Now before you quote Romans 8:8, I’ll save you the trouble , “ So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” This is referring to those who “walk after the flesh, or are carnally minded” and not those living in mortality.

    Oh, one more

    Heb. 11: 5-6 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Can we infer from this verse that “WITH FAITH it is POSSIBLE to please God”? I say yes, what do you say? But with faith alone?


  15. clarity67 says:

    Berean contd.

    James 2: 14, 17-18, 20, 22, 24, 26

    14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    • • •

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    • • •

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    • • •

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    • • •

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Gal. 2: 16

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    You know I really hate to ask this, but will you please reconcile the preceding verses for me since I cannot digest the “meatier” issues. Will you please chew this up for me so it is easier to swallow?


    Sorry, at my limit – haven’t forgotten you.

  16. Berean says:


    Thank you for serving me James 2. It was delicious. I’ll be happy to chew that up for you since it’s getting stuck in your “spiritual throat”. Unfortunately, until you swallow it down yourself and digest it in addition to all the rest of God’s Word you are going to starve to death.

    Do you really need for me to explain James 2 to you? I’m new to this blog. I’m sure my Christian brothers on here have explained it to you and other fine LDS folks what James 2 is saying.

    Again, I’m trying to get you to focus on the same texts that I have mentioned since the beginning: Matt 5:48 & Hebrews 10:10-18. I’m sorry that Mormonism requires you to live all the law and all the commandments to get into the Mormon celestial kingdom. I know it’s heavy on your head. Regrettably, I am going to have to place more weight on your head until you are crushed by the Mormon law requirements until you have nowhere to go but to the liberating freedom of grace as offered by Christ in what He did on the cross.

    More weight: from the priesthood manual “To Make Thee a Minister” on page 59 on what Mormons should be doing: fasting, personal prayers, regular family prayer, regular family home evening, home storage, regular scripture study, strict personal worthiness, support of quorum/ward/stake/general church leaders, tender concern for your wife and family members, family history, patience and love, honest work and integrity in your occupation, exemplary grooming and dress, regular attendance at and gaining strength from Church meetings and activities, regular temple attendance, observance of the Word of Wisdom, purity of thought and sabbath keeping.

    Are you doing all of the above? If not, your guilty of James 2:10…the chapter you cited.

    It appears that since you are still reluctant to accept the complete perfection that has already been offered to you in Christ you will end up in the same place as Joseph Smith – outer darkness. I don’t want that to happen.

  17. Ralph says:

    Berean, this got lost in the mail the other day (check 1 May up the page) so I am reposting it –

    First and foremost, all of the prophets of the LDS church teach that the church and prophets are only given the revelations necessary for the salvation of the people on this earth. Outside of that, some people who are more spiritual can receive further revelation for their own edification, not to share with others or only with a few close associates. In saying this, it means that the LDS church does not have all of the answers to questions – but it does have all of the answers pertinent to our salvation and that should be suffice for all (do I hear groans and ‘what a cop out’ – Well its true so like it or lump it). So in answer to your first 2 questions – there is no answer available because it is not pertinent to our salvation. So you will most likely find nobody who can answer them, but some might try and give their own opinion.

    But Q1 is really a moot question because a similar thing can be asked about the God you believe in – where did He come from? What does it mean in your philosophy that He was uncreated? Did He just appear from no where? Has He always been there, if so how? But since we cannot understand infinite time, we cannot understand fully the concept of a being that was always there, nor can we understand a process that is ad infinitum which the LDS church believes in about God.

    Q2 We do not know and probably never will until we reach the Celestial Kingdom. Although I have heard some very interesting ideas.

    Q3 A Christian website, http://scripturetext.com/matthew/5-48.htm shows that Matt 5:48 this should be translated (gives the Greek text) as we are commanded to become perfect, so it IS an ongoing process not a right here and now. Another http://bible.cc/matthew/5-48.htm gives differing meanings as to what it entails (ie physical works/spiritual attititude, etc).

  18. clarity67 says:


    I am hesitant to post the following because I have been closely acquainted with family that have left the Church, and am sensitive to the same, but feel compelled to do so as a fair warning, and as a statement of truth for the welfare of your soul.

    You know, there’s a generally held belief that those who apostatize from the Church do so because of the “commandment(s) they could not keep“. And when they do, almost without exception, they leave, but they can’t leave it alone, and, thus, they are left to kick against the pricks. This is truly unfortunate and sad, however, I have witnessed it time and again.

    Without being completely presumptuous, I would suggest that you fall into this category given your tone and the relentless pursuit in proving the Church wrong, false, deceived, etc. and this to ease your own conscience. It is curious that you spend your Sundays in the Mormon Church in an attempt to, at the very least create dissension or cause confusion, or at best, lead others away (arrogantly delighting in the same). If this is not the case, I am grateful. However, I warn that those who fight against the Church of the Lamb will do so at their own peril.

    “The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; … the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is here to stay. Like it, don’t like it, complain about it, disagree with it, draw your distinctions from it, separate yourself from it, BUT resist the temptation to place yourself in opposition to its divinely driven path.

  19. Berean says:


    This may surprise you, but I am not a son of perdition (ex-Mormon). I have never been a member of the LDS Church. I have been a Christian since 1986. A long time ago I was given a B.O.M. by a friend of mine up in Utah. I took it and started going through it. I followed the Biblical command of testing new revelations and scripture (1 Thes 5:21; Acts 17 [thus my name “Berean”]) and also the Mormon command to do so as stated by Brigham Young (JOD 17:41). The more I read the more troubled I got. I started buying more books and rechecking the ones I just checked to confirm it up. What were my resources? LDS books, magazines, manuals, etc,. I was shocked to find out that the things that troubled were me were in print by Mormon authors and leaders. This became compounded and my research just intensified. I became very concerned for my LDS friends in Utah and for the Mormon people as a whole. I just can’t stand to see people get tricked. This is serious business. These are peoples souls.

    My friends in Utah were very ignorant about basic church teachings and couldn’t answer my questions. They said they didn’t have time to do any reading or checking. I talked to missionaries here in Las Vegas over the years and they knew very little and easily gave up on me because they couldn’t answer my questions and became troubled by what they were hearing and reading while we visited. Much has taken place since then and I realized that I had to do more. I prayed about it and asked God what I could do. The answer: start going to Mormon churches and talking directly to the people there. I became so burdened and concerned for the Mormon people that I was willing to take the risk.

    I go to my church in the mornings and visit Mormon wards that have afternoon services. I am very respectful and ask questions when appropriate. I wish I could tell you what happened today and you would see what I am talking about. I’ve hit my daily limit. More tomorrow.

  20. Berean says:


    I am following the Biblical outline that Paul did in Acts 17. Paul’s spirit was stirred when he saw the city of Athens given to idolotry (v.16). Paul went where the Jews were and disputed with them namely in their synagogues (v.17). This is me except it’s with the Mormon people. I just can’t sit on my rump and do nothing while I watch good, sincere hearted people sell their souls to a gospel which was founded by a false prophet. Every ward service and class I attend the reaction is always the same: people come up to me and thank me for my thought provoking comments and questions. I am courteous and respectful to all those that I meet. I love the Mormon people and am very concerned. That is exactly what I tell them.

    Yesterday, I was speaking with the teacher of the Gospel Essentials class that I attended. We sat together during the priesthood meeting and discussed many things. I shared with him concerns and questions that I had and we talked until everybody left the church and the lights were out. He invited me over to his house for dinner and now wants to do lunch and talk more. I doubt this would have happened if I was a hellraiser.

    When asked, I have told them that I go to a Baptist church on Sunday morning. I have never lied about my intentions and what I am doing at the wards. It is not easy to tell Mormons that they are headed to outer darkness if they continue in this man-made religion. It is the loving thing to do and it has to be done.

    Wouldn’t you want somebody to care enough to tell you if you were headed in the wrong direction? I don’t try to prove the LDS Church is wrong. It does that all on its own by their own writings. Read Mormon historian Richard Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling” and then tell me you don’t have concerns.

    I know the LDS Church is here to stay. I accept that. That grieves me because the growth of the Church keeps increasing just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and many other false religions and cults.

  21. eric017 says:

    I’ll respond to the myth that people who leave the church leave because they can’t keep the commandments as someone who left the church. Although, I wouldn’t say I ever had a testimony as a critically thinking adult, so I don’t know if I qualify as a so-called son of perdition.

    Most, not all but most, ex-Mormons I’ve come across did not leave because they couldn’t keep the commandments. They leave because they realize that the church ISN’T true. They leave because they realize the Mormon gospel that is “the same yesterday, today and forever,” changes with every first presidency press release. They leave because the church carefully rewrites thier history every generation to fit it’s public persona. They leave when they realize that the church controls people’s lives by only providing certain ‘faith-promoting’ detail regarding Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and ignore and pretend other facts that aren’t so faith promoting don’t exist, but never openly refute these details. They leave when they see dishonesty from the highest general authorities with no explaination or justification. They leave when they realize they have been duped thier entire lives. They leave, as I did, because thier parents taught them to be honest. And they cannot honestly say that the church is true.

    If every Mormon who couldn’t ‘keep the commandments’ left the church, there wouldn’t be any Mormons. Name one person in the church who keeps the Mormon commandments, 100% of the time, all thier life. If you think you might have one, and ask them, I’ll be if they are honest and humble like we are commanded to be, they wouldn’t agree.

    People leave the church because it isn’t what it claims to be. Period.

  22. Berean says:


    Clarity67, don’t take what I am doing as something personal only to the Mormons. I have and still do now, when the opportunity presents itself, the same thing with the JW’s and many others that peddle false doctrine. I was born, raised and lived the first 26 years of my life in the South where the JW’s are the majority over the Mormons. When they knock on your door and assault your neighborhood on a Saturday morning the Christian better be prepared to have an answer (1 Pet 3:15). Witnessing to JW’s is much easier than Mormons and that is another conversation. Bottom line, Charles Russell, the founder of the JW’s, was shown to be a false prophet and all those after him because of his false doctrines and prophecies. On equal charge, Joseph Smith is guilty of the same thing. Joseph Fielding Smith said:

    “Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, the he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declaration were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures.” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:188)

    To that I say, “Amen!”. When I read what Mormon historians say about Joseph Smith, look at teachings and doctrines that changed over the years, see the contradictions when tested by the scriptures (the Bible) etc., it’s clear to me that he was a false prophet and the LDS Church is not true.

  23. clarity67 says:


    I hope that you will sincerely accept my apology for any offense I may have accused you of falsely. I was covertly hopeful and, now, grateful that your motives aren’t as malicious as I had presumed. For that again, I apologize.

    I went through much of the same (a similar search) at the time I received my mission call and was confronted with “alternative” accounts of Church history and perhaps what could/would be considered anti-literature for the first time. Some of my friends, one in particular, my roommate at college questioned my allegiance and could not understand why I would sacrifice so much. Frankly, I had the same questions. I know and understand that they were concerned for me, and even though I thought my roommate was just upset that I would leave him with the whole rent (I realize now, not true) I had to find my own way.

    Without expressing in words, and not trying to be smug or in any way disrespectful or condescending to anyone who may read this, simply put, I have my witness. With all the sincerity I can muster, don’t think I am copping out by not sharing particulars, but I could not deny what I know and how I know it if I wanted to. I don’t intimately know about other people’s testimonies and wouldn’t profess to, all I have is mine. I truly appreciate your candor and I acknowledge that you certainly have the right to your testimony and hope you don’t fault me for wishing it was different.

    I absolutely agree with the quote of Joseph Fielding Smith. If Joseph Smith was not a prophet, then the Church is just another institution, like many others, that does a lot of nice things for as many as it can, and its members are misled. However, if he was a prophet, then the Church is the Lord’s kingdom restored to the earth. My warning to you was erring on the side of caution.

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