From Family Exaltation by Archibald F. Bennett, Course 20, Genealogical Training Department for the Sunday Schools of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, published by the Deseret Sunday School Union Board, 1957:
THE BEGINNING OF YOUR ETERNAL KINGDOM. At a family meeting in Nauvoo in 1845, President Brigham Young gave these lucid teachings:
I will first set in order before these relations the true order of the kingdom of God and how families hereafter will be organized. . . . In all the kingdoms of the world you will find there will be only one King, and all will be governed as one family; every man will preside over his own family. We will have to work out some of the impurities. . . .
I will show you the order of the Kingdom as regards my own family; one of my sons is placed here, another there, another there, and so on. Yet I should be their ruler, savior, dictator, and governor. They would have innumerable posterity but all would join in harmony with my counsel; I should console, comfort, and advise them all. You and your children will rise up and administer unto your children, and you will rule over your posterity, and they may get up into tens, hundreds, thousands, and millions. Yet all will finally join with Adam who will be the king of all; Seth comes next; Seth rules under his father and over all; so this process will never end. This is the order of the kingdom of heaven, that men should rise up as kings and priests of God. We must have posterity to rule over. I calculate, if I am blessed, that I will have an innumerable host of my own, the same as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (page 79; ellipses and emphasis retained from the original)
Many questions may arise after reading this passage, and I invite you to give voice to whatever is on your mind. One of the questions I have is, Where is Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in this scheme? “This is the order of the kingdom of heaven,” Brigham Young said. The LDS Bible Dictionary says the kingdom of heaven is the celestial kingdom; and the glossary on mormon.org says both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ reside there. So how do they fit into this family pyramid whose “king of all” is Adam?
About Sharon Lindbloom
Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
What total nonsense and jibberish. So was BY speaking as a Mormon prophet. Or was he just engaging in what might be called “blue sky” or “magical thinking”. And then…….and then…..Captain Kirk and the Enterprise will visit you…..and sometimes the Mother Ship will take you to other worlds where you will learn more wisdom and have greater revelation. The Mormon mindset is: never think critically or you won’t believe these wonderful spiritual truths when they are revealed to you. This whole deal is just too embarrassing for words.
I love Brigham Young.. Why? Because he has the most interesting declarations I have ever heard of.
What has struck me is Brigham Young pays a ton of attention to Adam. Not just in this passage, but with the whole Adam/God doctrine as well. It’s a shame that all this talk seems to take away from the Father and the Son.
BY’s statement reads like an MLM (Multi0Level Marketing) commercial.
Of course 90% of MLM’s come from Mormon circles.
Anubis
I can’t help but think of Adam/God. This one certainly gives insight as to his (BY’s) meaning when he gave the sermon defining Adam as God.
It also clarifies the polygamy discussion, though I know the “we only worship one God” still exists. Though this begs the question why? Why not worship the biggest and best god, the one who begat all the others?
I know, I’m thinking too much…
I must be so naive. Do die-hard LDS really believe this stuff?
Some things are self evident, others are beyond our understanding, but to make up things out of the blue and proclaim it as fact is mind blowing.
Yes, Afton, that is why Mormon teachings are not told upfront, people wouldn’t join. People must first have the much-spoken of “testimony” that the Mormon church is true and then whatever they say is true. Only then will people accept things like this. A quote I like from a good friend -“Belief beyond proof is faith. Belief in spite of proof is folly.”
Falcon’s quote:
“..Captain Kirk and the Enterprise will visit you…..and sometimes the Mother Ship will take you to other worlds where you will learn more wisdom and have greater revelation.”
Brilliant!
“The Mormon mindset is: never think critically or you won’t believe these wonderful spiritual truths when they are revealed to you. This whole deal is just too embarrassing for words.”
Well, to be fair – MOST religions discourage critical thinking – ‘Faith’, no matter how uplifting and inspiring it may be, is not ‘Rational’.
T
Traveler,
Here’s the deal as far as I am concerned. I don’t really care if Mormons want to believe this stuff, I really don’t…irrational as it is. But PLEASE, cut-out the Christian Wanna-BE routine. Some say that Mormons are outside of the Christian mainstream. The fact of the matter is that they are in their own stream all together. And this idea that this and other Mormon beliefs are what the first century Church believed…..without any evidence because it was left out of the Bible. You really have to suspend belief to buy into that. A little rationale thought would not be out of the question here. What is irrational? It’s the old “God told me. God told the prophet. I don’t need evidence. So on the rational…irrational continuum, there is plenty of room in spirituality for rational thought. When you read the BY quotes above, you can see how Mormonism is a hybred version of Scientology, new age religion and the occult.
Interesting how Sharon’s bias(?) use of the “solar syatem” image creates more opinion than the actual text she quotes. Nevertheless, BY’s statements seems to be rather blunt. Let me preface my thoughts with “on earth as it is in heaven”. All reading this surely agree that Adam is our great great…grandfather. Also, do we all not regard or parents with regard, and our grandparents even higher in regard, and so on.
However, do not forget that BY opens with “In all the kingdoms of the world you will find there will be only one King”-obviously Our Heavenly Father. The many kingdoms are brought forth by ourselves and our fathers. Perhaps this notion could be simplified if “kingdom” was substituted with “family”. I also notice how he says “regards my own family”-interesting insert of relativity.
Anyway, the wisecracks posted above are sophmoric and reflect the inevitable appearance of those who are perhaps not spiritual mature enough for these discussions. Do not misunderstand, i thouroughly see and enjoy the humor in Mormon culture, but as in life, it does not always merit appreciation.
To answer the question posted above- Our Heavenly Father is the “King” while we may be “kings”. We are paarts of the whole.
Jesus is the obvious head of the church on earth-not always requiring this obvious declaration-but this notion may be expanded in another topic-thread, should Sharon go down that road.
Subgenius,
You prove the point that Mormonism is a religion separate from Biblical Christianity. Also, the “on earth as it is in heaven” starts with “thy will be done”. It would be important to include that. Jesus is talking about the Father’s will. ” And then “In all kingdoms of the world you will find there will be only one king”. I don’t think it’s real obvious what he’s talking about. What world? This world or all of the other worlds that Mormons will inhabit and rule over with their goddess wife/wives? I can tell from your tone that you’re not real excited about defending this “doctrine”. When I read the stories of exMos, many of whom have no religious affiliation/committment any more, they all reached a tipping point where the preponderence of evidence was so great that even their “testimony” couldn’t sustain their belief in Mormonism. I think we can see how information like that posted in the article above would be enough to push people over the edge.
Falcon,
Biblical Christianity? exactly what is that? Is that Catholic? Methodist? Primitive Baptist?. Is it your contention that the organization of families on earth is not by His Will? As for “world”- since it is singular obviously it the same “world” as referenced in Genesis. However, if it were plural would it not be the same as in Hebrews 1:2 or hebrews 11:3; granted some Bible translations substitute “universe” for world, so perhaps you know better. I might ask you to define “world” since you seem to be hinting that there is only one? is that not contrary to “Biblical Christianity”? However, to answer your direct question, Yes, this world (earth), all other worlds, and the whole universe has but one King (though the worlds may have kings). note that i capitalize for distinction.
All “ex-religious” people reach a tipping point, correct?
My tone? i tried to approach the topic in a rather clinical method, because of the juvenille commentary which had already appeared. If someone is on here just to “mormon-bash” then so be it, however they are the one who is missing an opportunity, as their mind closes, so does their heart (psalms 21:16).
You should read and ponder Proverbs 21 (especailly verses 2 and 11)
Sub, what exactly is Mormonism? On the surface, what is it, and what about what the FLDS has to say? One king in the entire universe? Who is that and why? BY says it is Adam. Do you believe it is Adam? This is kind of inferred from the king of all statement, and the King as referenced in the previous paragraph only says that there is to be one, but nowhere does it state who that is until we see Adam as king of all. So, who is BY really referring to? Based on this text, it is Adam.
Proverbs 21:2 you should also take heart at that verse. God does know our hearts, and your ways may seem right, but if your heart is not in the right place… But I digress before we get back to the role works play in your hearts…
See also verse 24. Who is a mocker?
On a different topic, see verse 28. Shall we rehash the character of Joseph Smith?
Thanks for bringing up Proverbs 21. There is much for discussion it it…
Subgenius,
Whine, whine…it always comes down to the Mormon persecution complex. I don’t think I’ve ever read on this site Christians complaining about being Christian bashed though it happens on a regular basis. Heat in the kitchen must be too hot when it comes to this topic.
Biblical Christianity is for people who believe in the Biblical Gospel (regardless of denominational flavor) and not some hybred invention that comes-on the scene periodically in history. I would list Mormonism in that category. I’ve listed the basic doctrinal positions of Biblical Christianity previously so I won’t repeat it here. There are common factors.
You’re talking Mormon outer space theology here. I’m not going to argue with you about it. It’s your deal. It has,however, no foundational basis in Biblical Christianity. Your founder Joseph Smith also said that men lived on the moon. These moon-dwellers lived to be a thousand years old. They were six feet tall and dressed like Quakers. (The Young Worman’s Journal, “The Inhabitants of the Moon,” 1892, Vol.3, p.263.) Hay if this stuff turns your crank, far be it from me to spoil your cosmic fun. I don’t see any of this inspired revelation in the Bible though. Maybe Joe’s seer stone was cloudy on the day he came up with this gem.
MichaelP
On the surface, in the middle, and below-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a religon. I am not FLDS, so ask them. If you are Christian should i infer you to be akin to those who bomb abortion clinics, or if you are Catholic what of the Inquisitions?, or maybe you are Puritan and seek a witch. It seems that you have only the CNN knowledge of FLDS,so live your life according to that. However, i am not a member of that church so i can offer you no revelations on that subject (unless you go tohe topic on this board from a few weeks ago).
Adam, by family lineage, is the king (lowercase), yet he, like you, is subject to Our Heavenly Father who is the King (uppercase).
Proverbs 21:2 – why would you think i had taken that verse to heart? Is your vanity such that you ‘felt’ that i meant that verse for you rather than as a statement of me?
A “mocker” is one who is openly contemptuous of spiritual truth and moral righteousness. Now considering that i did not and do not comment on this board in an attempt to “degrade” anyone’s religion but rather to engage in deeper and more spiritual discussions about all of our Faiths. However, more often than not, i am in defense of my religion- which mostly is an opportunity to make wise someone who is simple, but occasionaly someone brings an honorable discussion.
Joseph Smith was a prophet, but also a man. I do not worship him, thus his character is of no consequence to me or my religion. This is true of many people in history. Temporal knowledge does not always render false what the Spirit has discerned as true.
I am glad you will enjoy Proverbs 21, and you are welcome.
Greetings SubGen,
I’m sorry if I have given the impression of being “sophmoric” or “spiritually immature” but I honestly found Falcon’s comments to be very witty.
I must agree with him also in this respect – to a disinterested observer – Mormonism is not any more ‘Christian’ than is Islam. Just as Hinduism is not, nor is Buddhism.
Apples are not plums, nor are they tomatoes.
T
subgenious wrote:
” “In all the kingdoms of the world you will find there will be only one King”-obviously Our Heavenly Father.”
No, this is not obvious. Given that Heavenly Father isn’t mentioned once in the quote, and BY openly taught that Adam was God, it is not obvious (read your Journal of Discourses!!!). You also suggest that Christ is obviously the head of his church (and I assume you mean the LDS church). This is not obvious either, given that the LDS church looks nothing like the churches that are described in the NT.
I do agree though that many of the above quotes are a bit sophmoric. However, can you not see how shocking statements like these from BY are to Christians? Is it not obviously why we might make a big deal when Mormons claim on one hand to be just another Christian denomination and on the other fail to condemn statements like these from Smith and Young. Do you want us to pretend they didn’t make these statements like the leadership of the Mormon faith hopes we will?
“Joseph Smith was a prophet, but also a man. I do not worship him, thus his character is of no consequence to me or my religion.”
We are not asking for impeccability here. This is a big problem many ex-mormons and never-been-mormons just cannot get over. To them, to me, and to many others the morality of a religious leader (especially a founder) does matter. This has bearing on the topic of this thread as the LDS practice of polygamy was seen as a way of expanding, or potentially expanding, one’s domain or kingdom.
“Temporal knowledge does not always render false what the Spirit has discerned as true.”
I think we are reaching an impasse here on this blog. Many if not all the Mormons here seem to believe that the intellect and the spirit are divorced. They fall back on personal spiritual revelation as a means to defend the seemingly indefensible . . . As if non-Mormons have not experienced revelation/conformation of their faith. The Spirit does not confirm your faith, negate ours, declares you right, and us wrong. Whether experience/revelation/spirit trumps intellect (as if the two are completely divorced) is another topic for another day, but for the nature of a blog one needs to deal in transferables. Spiritual impressions/experiences are not necessarily bad but they are largely non-transferable.
The point of this forum is to interact and it is difficult, if not impossible, to impart one’s own experience with a spirit. You just had to be there.
It is obvious, as was stated above, that for Mormons when speaking of Joseph Smith, “his character is of no consequence.” That is a real indictment of the individual making the comment and of Mormonism in general (if indeed this is the prevailing attitude). Character matters, it counts. It’s the first test as to if you have confidence in a person. It tells us if that person can be trusted in what they do and say. What I’m hearing is that it doesn’t matter if Joseph Smith was a liar, a coniver, a womanizer and a fraud. He’s the guy (Mormons) want to follow. Please don’t talk to me about Mormon moral righteousness when they have a founder with this kind of a record. If a seer stone gazer and convicted treasure hunter came to me and said he’s had visions and revelations and that Biblical Christianity is an abomination and he had a new truth, I’d tell him to get lost.
As for mocking the truth, please, I haven’t seen any truth relative to Biblical Christianity when it comes to Mormonism. Reference the above article. It is our duty and responsibility as Christians before God to vigorously defend the faith.
When LDS say about JS, Character matters, it counts.
All I can say is, PPPPLLLLLEEEAAAASSSSEEEE, Give us a break, As falcon Pointed of, JS was a liar, he was a false prophet, yet LDS dont care, they blow it off to he was a mere mortal man who made mistakes.
Yet when one of us Christians here on this blog make a mistake or misunderstand something about Mormonism, the LDS never fail to point it out then say in a round about way, we cannot be trusted, or no point in us speaking to you about JS or the BoM being false since were clueless and theirfore our Character does not matter, and it does not count.
Very sad indeed. Then Falcon, since you brought up the men on the moon, lets not forget, since were talking about BY and not JS, BY did yes men live in/on the sun, BY did not want to be out done. Rick b
as far as character assassination goes “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
David
Spiritual things are completely and largely transferable – what do you think the Bible does? Does reading those words not allow you to Spiritually discern the truth? Do you need a calculator and ruler when you read the Bible?
As for the morality of leaders having influence over the credibility of the church, perhaps you should consider the oral roberts, jimmy swaggart, countless catholic priests, and even countless upon countless protestant ministers who have molested, robbed, raped, abused, deceived and killed in the name of their religion. i dare say the overwhelming number of transgressions by the non-mormon “factions” is such that we seem as “sin-amateurs”.
RickB
i look at any mistakes made by spiritually honest people as forgiveable and an opportunity to educate or enlighten,and i expect the same in return.
falcon
your reference is inaccurate – that article is someone stating that they “heard” joseph smith say that – i believe that is called “hearsay”. However, there is no argument with BY statements, they are clear. they seem as fantastic as someone being commanded by fire upon a bush, or a woman made from a rib, or lions not eating daniel, or a man living in the belly of a whale or countless other “fantastic voyages”.
There’s a major difference here when talking about the sins of leaders within a religous group and Mormons with Joseph Smith, I don’t follow any of them or support them. And wouldn’t. Mormons do, willingly.
We’re back to the old argument from equivalence approach which Mormons love to use. It goes like this, find something in the Bible that’s fantastic and in doing so try to legitimize a Mormon doctrine, teaching or practice. The tag line is then, therefore the Mormon church is true. Like I’ve said before, I don’t care if Mormons want to believe this stuff, any more that I care what Hindus or Buddists believe. Just don’t make the claim that it’s the original real deal Christianity. Because it’s not. It’s Joseph Smith’s invention and proved to be far more lucrative than treasure hunting.
Sub,
I can admit that people Like Jimmy S, or others you named did do these things, sadly though the Bible tells us they are not true believers. Yet when LDS leaders or prophets do the same thing, you guys simply blow it off as their human and made a mistake and God forgives and so do we.
The Problem is, they are not believers. I can sin and simply make a mistake, maybe I choose to cheat on my wife, maybe I felt the grass was greener, or the women would do things my wife would not, But as 1st John 1:8-9 says, I can be forgiven.
But if I leave my wife and do it because I was cheating and simply stay with the other women, then am I and can I be forgiven? The Bible say I am a liar and not a TRUE follower of Jesus.
Same with, Am I a seiral Killer and no one but me and God knows it, Or do I kill a guy for raping my Daughter, and He gets away with little to no jail time, so in the heat of Anger even though I know better, I purposly seek him out and kill him.
If I repent I can be forgiven, But no matter how much I repent, If I willfuly live in Sin and Sin over and over, then the Bigger question is, Do I really know God and really follow him.
Remember, the scariest verse in the Bible was spoken by Jesus saying, Not every one who say, Lord, Lord, will enter heaven.
These people say Lord,Lord implying they know Jesus, and even claim to cast out demons and do Miracles in the Name of Jesus, yet they never really knew Jesus.
Then you quote “fantastic” things found in the Bible, they way you sound is, like you really do not believe these are true, so why even bother reading or believing the Bible. I could believe fantastic things in the BoM to be true, but since the BoM is false and no evidence for it proves it to be true, other than mere feeling, then that tells me, the things in the BoM are mere “fantastic” stories, while the “fantastic” things of the Bible are true. Rick b
Another deaf ear for Mormons: they constantly bring in the Swaggarts and the like to say we do not have perfection. Duh! But what is different, and I am echoing the previous two, is that we call them out and we leave their flock!
I’ve said it before, if Lon Solomon, my pastor (www.mcleanbible.org or http://www.notasermon.org) ever did anything questionable ie steal, lie, cheat, abuse, distort, etc then I would take my family from McLean Bible Church in a second.
Despite our constant correcting them, this always comes up, and Joseph Smith is left without condemnation.
As to Young’s statement, it is interesting to see an attempt made to equate it with stories from the Bible, especially since it has nothing to do with the Bible and everything to do with Mormon theology. This ain’t just another story…
Michael P.
I went out and checked the website for your church. I was curious as to what part of the country you are in. Very good site. Excellent information for seekers.
Joseph Smith, in order to sell His religion and subsequent doctrines such as the one presented above, had to degrade orthodox Christianity and the Bible. That was his basic technique in proclaiming that he was called on by God to restore His Church. So that’s where Mormonism is today. It doesn’t fit with Christianity. It can’t be folded into orthodox Christian doctrine. We evaluate/compare Mormonism with Christianity and conclude that it is false based on it’s claim to be the restoration of the original Gospel. So it’s astounding to me that Mormons can’t figure out why we actually ask for some tangable evidence that what they proclaim accurately reflects the first century Church. We won’t consider their testimony as proof anymore than they will consider my testimony as proof that Biblical Christianity is the real deal. Left with no proof, all they can claim is a wide ranging conpiracy that left their beliefs out of the Bible.