“You can’t really administer the gospel in a life-changing way unless you also, like Paul always did, discern and expose and challenge the idols of your place… If you’re trying to communicate the gospel to anybody you need to know what their idols are, because the gospel is [that] you’re saved by grace, and the idol is that you’re saved by something else… Do you realize how many different forms of works salvation there are? ” – Timothy Keller
Jesus makes all of us uncomfortable.
For those who idolize a church, he calls us to be willing to leave it.
For those of us who have idolized the family that said they would leave us if we leave Mormonism and become a born-again Christian, he calls us to “hate” our family (Luke 14:26).
For those of us who idolize money, he calls us to sell everything we have and follow him.
For those of us who idolize our self-righteousness and pride, he calls us to reach a desperation and declare spiritual bankruptcy (Romans 4:4-5).
For those of us who idolize a nice and tidy top-down human structure that governs our lives, he calls us to endure and serve the messy Bride of Christ.
For those of us who idolize human authority, he calls us to rebuke them for their sins.
For those of us who idolize human relationships, he calls us to be lonely for a season.
For those of us who idolize the scoffing of those without truth, he calls us to learn compassion by getting intimately involved in others’ lives.
For those of us who idolize ourselves as gods-in-embryo, he calls us to worship the only God that will ever be.
For those of us who idolize food, he calls us to fast.
The gospel is about looking outside ourselves to trust the righteousness and exaltation and provision of another, Jesus Christ. Only then will we be made righteous, sanctified, and glorified.
Friends, the Lord is ready and willing to save you and to immediately forgive all your sins and give you eternal life! Declare spiritual bankruptcy and stop trying to earn your own forgiveness or prove your own worthiness. Stop worshiping a false God who was once a mere man before he became a God. Worship the God who always was, is, and will be God for all worlds. Stop showing up at the “temp agency” where you think you can earn your own wages with divine assistance, and instead show up at God’s gracious welfare office for free forgiveness and a transformed heart.
Jesus gets all the glory that way!
LDS Pres.Harold B. Lee said:
” I quoted in the opening session of this
conference a wonderful letter that I received
from a student body president who is greatly
concerned about things going on on the campus
and round about in the society where he moves
and then his statement was,’ I assure you that
every LDS on this campus who is keeping the
commandments of God ONE HUNDRED PERCENT is
supporting and sustaining you.’
Brethen,I know that that is true throughtout
this whole church.Every LDS who is keeping the
commandments is following the leadership of the
church…”
Keeping all the commandments?
“…Cursed is everyone that continueth not in
ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the
law to do them.” [Gal.3:10]
The good news: ” And be found in Him,NOT HAVING
MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF THE LAW, but
that which is through the faith of Christ, THE
RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF GOD BY FAITH.” [Phil.
3:9]
The above quote was from, Ensign mag.7-1973,p99
Aaron,
I find your comments ironic considering that you worship the false idol of the vain philosophies of men (evangelical theology).
Your false idol denies that Jesus is the Son of God.
Your false idol believes that God is a castrated eunuch.
Your false idol preaches the satanic doctrine of cheap grace.
Your false idol mocks the power and authority of God.
Your false idol rejects the commandments of God.
Your false idol offers no salvation but deceives the souls of men.
Your false idol is an abomination in the sight of the Lord and will be destroyed.
I would implore you to turn away from your false idol and embrace Christ.
Stuart, thanks for telling me how you really feel. I wish your prophets were as blunt as that. I appreciate your comment because it at least hits at the degree of attention that idolatry really deserves.
Since I believe God is fundamentally spirit and not a gendered being, neither “castrated” nor “eunuch” would describe him, for God has all the good qualities of a man and woman and more.
Also, the only grace that can help me become a loving and gracious person is the grace of free forgiveness received by faith alone. It ironically is the only lasting foundation for a life if progressive holiness and works.
As for power and authority, I believe that God has it infinitely, and always has. It is so inherent to him that he never needed to receive it (contra Mormonism), and he doesn’t need an ordinance or human touch to bestow any of it. His word is sufficient to communicate authority, and with a simple “let there be” entire galaxies are brought into existence. In other words, God is so inherently powerful that he doesn’t need to receive priesthood to make something.
Also, Jesus is the Son of God, and is so in the deepest sense: “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.” (Hebrews 1:3) He has been so eternally, a Son without need of a spirit birth or a Heavenly Mother. Jesus is more of a Son to God than I will ever be (since I am adopted).
Grace and peace in Christ for those who receive eternal life,
Aaron
I just posted what I said under the topic of The Careful finagling or repentance
I figure it fits here also.
The Bible makes salvation Easy, Jesus and Paul both said, Believe in Jesus and your saved. But the LDS church teaches all of this.
This is so much bondage how can you be sure your saved? Then to do all this could take years, but if MM’s knock on your door and you decide to believe them, then die the next day how can you be saved? If I knock on your door, Preach Jesus, tell you that all you need to do as Jesus and Paul stated was, To believe that Jesus is Lord and Died for you, you can be 100 percent sure your saved. If you end up dying or killed that day or the next, you are going to be in heaven. Rick
Aaron,
Evangelical theology has castrated God. No wonder God views your creeds as an abomination!
How can you claim the be a Christian if you deny that Jesus Christ is the son of God?
There is no salvation in cheap grace.
Sorry, Stuart, not sure how we can have a reasonable conversation with you at this point.
St. Crispin,
I’ve been wanting to chime in here for a long time, though each time it’s been impossible for me to start typing. I saw your post about Christianity’s ‘false idols’ and it stunned me. I will leave it to the others to refute your claims more thoroughly then I, but I couldn’t sit still while you claimed that I, as a Christian, worship some sort of castrated eunuch. This sort of mis-characterization seems to be a favorite of Jason Rae and perhaps it’s becoming more popular with other Mormon posters such as yourself.
Do you hold this view because we trust God’s Word that God himself is Spirit and doesn’t have a physical body?
If that is the case, would you be ok if I refer to the false god you worship as a ‘lesser’ god? After all, there are countless others in existence who have worked their way up to godhood before he did right? How about ‘alien’? After all, your father god originated on another planet in another part of the universe. Can I call the god you worship ‘incesteous’? He is the father of Mary’s spirit right? And your prophets teach he came down and had sex with his own daughter? How about ‘subordinate’? Your god seems to be a slave to the rules and paths set out by the gods that came before him.
The Bible is bursting with the power and majesty of my God and Father. I wonder, do you know him?
Neil
Neil,
To start with I refute your claim that you are a Christian. You belief system is based upon a false interpretation of the scriptures infused with Hellenic philosophy and grafted paganism. You are no more a Christian than a Muslim.
Second point, the mischaracterization, misrepresentation, and general denigration and mocking of the LDS Church, its doctrines and people is the sugar and cream of Mormon Coffee.
Third, your belief system (false gospel) denies many of the basic tenets of Christianity and openly rejects the teachings of the Bible such as Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the power and authority of God, the necessity of holy ordinances such as baptism, etc.
You can worship your impotent, castrated “god”, but there is no salvation in your false religion of evangelism.
If I really wanted to be Hellenized, I would believe in eternal matter, the pre-existence, the intrinsic (unaided) immortality of the soul, and the plurality of gods. 😉
Stuart, seriously, tone done the language of “castration” if you want to have a constructive conversation.
St Crispin,
Just like Jason, Your nothing more than a lying wolf.
You tell us their is no salvation in what we believe.
Please tell me in your own words how come LDS go out of their way to say they are Christians, they believe the Bible and they believe what we believe. But then you come here and tell us were all wrong and were not Christians.
Then please tell me in your own words how Jesus lied when He said this,
Jesus said Believe on Him and were saved. No mention of Works. Then why is it you are always telling us were wrong, you tell us what we believe, yet YOU NEVER BACK IT UP.
We provide you guys with Quotes and Scripture, but not you, I think your the one that has no balls, I mean has been castrated. If your going to accuse us, then put up or shut up. Rick b
Aaron,
Great article and follow-up posts. I think it’s probably about time to “shroud” some of the Mormons who show-up here. They are neither clever, funny, sarcastic in a creative way or knowledgable about anything including their own religion. Their purpose in being here is to disrupt and lash out because they can’t defend Mormonism; a religion that has more holes than swiss cheese and, when we consider the blatant immorality of it’s founder, smells a lot like limbugher.
The idol of our Mormon friends is the male god to be, themselves. The ego and pride that resides within these individual god-men will end in their ultimate spiritual distruction. The seduction of Satan in whispering “you are a god” in their ear is like dope to an addict. To be worshipped and adored; they can’t ask for anything more. Thinking themselves to be wise, they have become fools. It would be bad enough if they were just harming themselves, but they’re taking their whole family down to eternal distruction.
Crispin, “No wonder God views your creeds as an abomination!”
When are you going to back up you accusations? Give me some reference points so I can investigate and report the truth. I am sure you base of knowledge is from your paid clergy.
You spew more crude then an Exxon tanker. 🙂
St. Crispin,
Heb 1:1-3; Phil 2:10,11; James 3:5,6;1 Pet 1:3-5 Titus 3:5; Phil 3:9; Gal 6:14; Gal 5:4
Gal 2:16,17;Gal 2:21; Gal 3:21-26; 2 Cor.5:21 Luke 18: 9-13
Luke 11:39
” He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
” Be swift to hear and slow to speak”
” Let God be true and every man a liar.”
Kevin,
If you knew anything about the LDS Church, which you obviously do not, you would know immediately what I am referring to when I stated: “No wonder God views your creeds as an abomination”.
Given your glaring lack of knowledge of the LDS Church I will inform you. In Jesus own words referring to the religious sects of the day He said “that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” History of the Church Vol. 1 chapter 1:19)
In the previous thread you stated: “As far as you know I am a high ranking {LDS} officer who is posting incognito so I can expose the church for what it is without dealing with the social pressures that fall on those who disagree.”
That is such a ridiculous statement. For starters, a “high ranking” LDS Church officer would be well educated, which you obviously are not. You make claims to being knowledgeable about economics and finance but you cannot even fathom basic finance terms (i.e. Profit Center versus Cost Center). FYI the finance term “Profit Center” is a financial term coined by Harvard management guru Peter Drucker in 1945 – it has nothing to do with the writings of Adam Smith.
Yo are just another typical poorly educated evangelical spouting off about the LDS Church. I will match my ivy league academic credentials against your feeble education any day.
Falcon,
It never ceases to amaze me how ev’s get all uptight when I throw their mailcious accusations back in their face. To wit: evangelical theology is “a religion that has more holes than swiss cheese and, when we consider the blatant immorality of it’s founder(s) (Martin Luther, John Calvin), smells a lot like limbugher.”
rblandjr – what is your point – if any? BTW say hello to Amanda – we miss her.
I love the list of idols and what the result is.
I think that God can ‘destroy’ us and build us up if he has to. It won’t be fun, but it will be for our benefit. He wants us to worship him and him alone, and anything that gets in the way keeps us from fully enjoying his power. Sometimes, then, he has to make us so empty or destroyed that all we have is him to fill us up and build us up.
God can and will break us if too many idols get in our way.
I remember after college I came to this realization, that my idol was well, me. I have never been an arrogant person, but for a long time I tried to solve all my problems on my own, without listening to him, and I screwed it up, always. Until I realized that no matter what I thought was right God had a better way I struggled in so many ways. After that realization, that God always has a better way and that by listening to it I would be better off, I felt a profound sense of ease. It was only after I realized I am not the answer that the contentment came that I was looking for. And I had been a believer for a long time…
Idols are everywhere and can be hidden from plain view. Often it is when we think we have none we actually have the most, and it even happens when we think we are serving the church.
Crispy,
Your nothing but a wolf, You first cannot back up nothing you say, you just run off at the mouth. Then you quote from your false Prophet, He had 9 different first vision accounts.
Then when we quote from History of the Church, or any other Prophet, you guys claim it’s false or has been reported wrong. Example, History of the Church Vol 7 states Joseph Smith picked up a gun and Shot 3 people 2 of which were reported as dying, Then he ran like a scared Chicken he was and tried jumping out of a window.
First off ALL LDS deny this, Second, LDS view him as a spotless Lamb Going to the Slaughter like Jesus.
Where Did Jesus even open His mouth and say a word in Revile? He never Did, He had the chance in the Garden to run, He never Ran But Joseph Smith Did.
Please back up your accusations From the Bible, Not a false Prophet who could not keep the First vision Straight. Rick b
Stuart, we are praying for you today.
Here’s a friendly reminder to all to avoid making accusations against one another or complaining about style. Please discuss the doctrinal or historical issues and leave the ad hominem behind. Thanks.
I would like to second Sharon’s admonitions. It pains me that numerous posters are getting into name calling. However, Stuart, your approach over the last few days has become almost unbearable. I don’t know, but maybe that is what you are trying to do, to push people to overreact. You label Kevin as knowing nothing about the mormon church, disregarding his years of involvement. Did you forget, or is that a way to attempt to silence your critics. I may have missed it, but I don’t recall seeing your ivy league credentials, but you sure want to use them to club Kevin. Can you show others a little of the respect you say you aren’t receiving? Why do you have to take what seems to me such a persecuted and arrogant approach to this dialogue. You aren’t winning any friends. Perhaps that is not your purpose. I can’t read your mind. But your way of expressing yourself is writing a whole book, and I am not sure that is the book you want us to read. I join Aaron in remembering you in prayer.
Thank you Sharon!
Michael P.
You brought out some great truths concerning
the idols that can interrupt our Christian
walk if we’re not careful. Thanks.
Gal.2:20 for me.
Aaron,
“If I really wanted to be Hellenized, I would believe in eternal matter, the pre-existence, the intrinsic (unaided) immortality of the soul, and the plurality of gods. ;-)”
I have stated this before on this blog, but Muslims charge Hellenization corrupted true Christianity (Islam) . . . only their charge is the exact opposite. They maintain that the earliest Christians were Unitarian Monotheists, and that Greek influence brought about the Trinity and thus shirk. The Koran teaches that worshiping Jesus is an “excess” in our religion (4:171), even though the earliest Christians considered Jesus to be deity.
So same charge, in opposite directions, by groups that claim that Christianity fell into apostasy.
Wonderful quote from Timothy Keller, Aaron.
And thought-provoking commentary from you. Thanks, Aaron.
I love that you cite Tim Keller; he’s a real source of inspiration to me. In fact, I would recommend Mormon and Evangelical (everyone for that matter) to listen to his sermons; there are hundreds of them (literally) at http://www.redeemer.com. I recently had the good fortune to attend Redeemer in NYC and it was a great experience.
Having said this, I think that the emphasis on interfaith debate and arguing can be a form of “idol” as well.
What I mean is, for the Ev’s here that occasionally seem downright obsessed with discrediting Mormonism, I would ask, is that more important to you than to help Mormons embrace Christ? Are you really so certain that some of the Mormons you encounter do not know Christ already? Please don’t come back with the stock arguments about “different Jesus, etc.; that’s not the point – assume that some of them know the same Jesus you do. My point is to get you to look at yourselves: What is more important to you: Spreading the good news or taking down Mormonism? If it’s the latter, you may have built a false idol.
For the Mormons here, you need to remember that the church is supposed to be about Christ. Many Mormons have become as the Pharisees, focused on the law rather than Christ’s atonement as the source of salvation. Maybe the church does that to people, maye it’s just gone that way over time. Either way, let the change start with you, in your own heart.
When they say they believe God could have been a mere man who had to progress unto godhood, or that they “don’t know” if God was or could have been a sinner, it becomes particularly clear.
Ministry can indeed become an idol, but that point seems all the more meaningful from people who actually believe that beliefs about God’s past have a bearing on a person’s salvation. It doesn’t mean much from people who have taken a more postmodern view of religion.
Earlier this day, I spent some time in Romans 4. Since I have read it many times, I have begun to acquire the bad habit of going though it rather quickly. Today, I spent more time pondering what I was actually reading. It is difficult not to be in awe of its subject matter, which relates closely to this topic. This chapter tells us how God makes us right in His sight. It is beauty beyond words.
Just a quick note for our LDS visitors (including St. Crispin). Thanks for your participation. Our prayer is that you (a sinner) may be clothed in the white robes of Jesus’ perfect righteousness, adopted into God’s family, whose citizenship is Heaven. And discover the joy and peace we fellow sinners undeservedly have.
Doc, I offer this post as food for thought.
First, I fully agree that even church matters can be an idol, and that arguing that another faith/cult is wrong can become one, too. This is true. However, the discussion itself is not necessarilly idolotrous. In fact, we are told to stand up for our faith and expose false teachers. As such, the discussions we see here are arguably necessary. Now, I take your comments as a warning, and that is fair enough.
But I am confident to say that Mormons do not know Christ. They know someone they call Jesus, but they do not know the real one. I am 100% confident in that. The Mormon Christ is not the same Christ, and the reasons for that have been discussed many a time here, so I will not state them now.
You tell Mormons that the church is supposed to be about their Christ. Yes, and no, though, am I right? Their Christ is your head, but yet Mormons are promised godhood if they follow his commandments. So it’s also about the individuals who get to be gods. What about Joseph Smith? Don’t they sing songs about him and doesn’t he play a pivotal role in your faith, like, if you deny he was a propeht, you can’t be LDS? So, its about him, too.
I could go on, but I think you have enough to see why I am confident Mormons cannot follow Christ, and why the church is not about Jesus alone.
Aaron: You’ve accused me of being “postmodern” on several occasions, (you even tried to call me a name, “po-mo” or something, on one thread). You are obviously trying to label me but I honestly don’t know what you mean. Could you please explain?
Doc, that’s a loose term that we use for people with a squishy view of human depravity, of interaction (with an overly quick categorization of religious criticism as inappropriate mocking), an inordinate focus on finding religious common ground (even with idolaters), a de-emphasis on theology as important to knowing God, and a belief that we can’t presently know with any reasonable degree of certainty about things like the past of God.
Remember, I asked you, point-blank,
And you responded,
Thanks for the “clarification”. In other words, it’s everything about which you have complained about me! In other words, ad hominum.
P.S. That quote of mine was in an e-mail to you.
It’s a whole way of thinking that we don’t subscribe to. It neuters one from having a realistic view of truth, life, and human interaction. In my view it is perhaps far more dangerous than Mormonism.
Aaron – I’m trying to understand you. I think your problem with me is that I have not given you enough information about myself for you to label me. I forgive you for trying to judge me. I do ask that you please remove the quote that I e-mailed to you.
Michael P: Thanks for your response. Very thoughtful. I see all your points about Mormonism; my contention is that the light of Christ will do the job you are all trying to do.
No, Doc, I will not remove that quote, because you have been passing yourself off here as a Christian trying to talk to other fellow Christians. And when asked, you refused to disclose your religious commitments.
Rick B, What a wonderful post!
I am going to make a few comments in general, mere observations. It is apparent that I have hit a nerve with some posters, and I make no apologies for what I have said, the reader will decide for them self. Although it is disturbing how violent a person can become when a certain idea is presented.
This goes in line with the current post of worshiping idols. The presenter in the video stated, “Three idols to expose – Personal, religious, cultural.” Its only fitting, I guess, to see someone spout off their credentials as a defense of their position, is this Personal idolatry? I just wonder if it is insecurity, any way it is saddening.
The reason why most direct attacks don’t bother me is because I am secure in my life. I know what I have done, what I have yet to do, and what I hope to do but my never have the opportunity. Of course we all have our hot buttons.
I really like this site because as a ex-mo, this site helps to bring an understanding to what real Christians are like and what their beliefs are in; they truly have better answers about God, life, families, and authority, than what I was force fed while I was under oppression.
I do ask some softball questions, like for references, not so much for myself, but for our readers who do not post.
Aaron, that is not honorable.
Rick B, would to God that Joseph Smith could have killed every single member of the mob without mercy and lived to take out the rest of the Missourians. Five minutes of his life was worth theirs combined.
He went willingly and had every right to defend his friends, his brother and himself. His attempt to leap from the window was to take the heat off his remaining friends and spare them.
How retarded to think someone isn’t going to defend themselves against a murderous mob.
~
Michael, “Mormon Christ is not the same Christ…” Ok… last time I checked there was only one historical Jesus Christ, Son of God, born of Mary etc etc. Do you think we worship a Christ that maybe walked the dusty roads of Ethiopia?
What do you mean exactly by “not the same Christ”?
Joe had a lot of personal idolatry. He was power hungry, a treasure hunter, and a womanizer.
I don’t blame Joe for defending himself, he loved himself very much so, he really liked the power of Mayor, and massing an Army. Joe also fled, that is until Emma asked him to return; maybe she was not the only influencing factor in his decision to come back, but it was only after he read the letter that he made his statement about his life and friends. If he was going like a lamb to the slaughter, knowing he was going to die, then he knew that his friends would be in harms way. Why did he allow them to accompany them into danger. Joe did not have to accept the Pistol, he could have given it to someone else, remember it was smuggled into the Jail. In any case, Joe was not as innocent as the LDS org. would have you believe.
IMHO, Joe needed a few human shield to cover his get away. If Joe knew the Mobs where coming he could have met them outside the Jail, it’s not like they where trying to sneak up on him.
It was one of the greatest crimes in history, that is the murder of Joe. Because of this event, Joe was elevated in the LDS org. eyes. Because of the murder, some 14 million people have been led into the darkness or idolatry
How many times have you heard a Mormon say they don’t know what they would do with out the Church in their life.
Around Min. 16 the presenter states,
“What’s an idol? An Idol is anything in your life, that is so central to your life that you cannot have meaningful life if you lose it. It is anything that you look at and say, if I have that, my life has value, if I would lose that, I don’t know how I would live.”
St. Crispin,
My point.
Just thought I would share Gods Word to encourage you.
You seem to be really angry.
Didn’t know if you were having a bad day or just losing patience.
There is a great verse in James 1- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men an upbraideth not.”
The wrath of man doesn’t work the righteousness of God.
I know this by example.
God can help you with that problem. 1 JN 1:9
He has helped me with the same problem a few times.
I will be sure to tell Amanda you said hello.
What did you study at that Ivy league school?
What is an idol? Something that takes our focus off the worship of the one and only true God. We LDS beleive that we have the one and only true God and we have scriptural verses in the Bible, BoM and D&C to back up our claim in our own belief. You Traditional Christians believe that you have the one and only true God and have your scriptures in the Bible to back it up. So the only question on this is who has the one and only true God? Is it one of us two factions? Or is it someone else?
I will stand up and say that I believe in the one and only true God and that the Trinity is the idol that is removing many people from knowing and worshipping Him. I do not need to resort to name calling or any abusive threats to make this statement and I will not back down from that statement as I have my ‘evidence’ from God.
And no Falcon, it is not just ‘spiritual evidence’ nor just a burning in the bosom. I have had many an experience throughout my short life that has built up my faith and knowledge that the God I worship is the one and only true God. Most of which are very personal and I am not going to post them and open them to ridicule from some of you.
And doing good deeds/works because of your faith in Jesus and knowing that He has asked you to do them is not idolising them, unless that is your main focus and you forget your ultimate goal – living in God’s presence.
Ralph, I really like you. You are among a few LDS posters who can and do post with respect. You are willing to recognize that “others” also have the same idea that they worship the “One”. You may disagree with them, as I disagree with you, and we each have our own evidence that supports our claims.
What I can say about the LDS Org, is that I have seen Idolatry among the members more in your Organization then I have seen anywhere else.
1.I have witnessed a Father spend so much time on all his callings that he did not have time to build a relationship with this children.
2.I have witnesses a Woman completely loss it because her child choose not to go to BYU.
3.I know of a person who blew off his brothers wedding because he needed to do Temple Ordinances.
All of these are idolatry, especially number one, and I know this is not an isolated situation. I have spoke with many others who have experienced the same situation.
Another note, In St. Paul, Last Winter, the temple steps and front door were burned; doing thousands of dollars in damage, truly it was a shame that someone would act in such a way.
Not surprisingly, the next Sunday was F&T meeting, and you would have thought that some one had died the way that people where crying at the pulpit.
This is disturbing to me that someone would focus so much energy and feeling on a building. I know the LDS org. revers those buildings, heck I worked in one, but didn’t Jesus say that you will not find God in a temple or on a Mountain top. Sorry I am not good with scriptures so please forgive me I cannot quote the versus.
Case in point, it was about the Temple, the building, not about God.
Ralph,
Have you ever seriously considered what it means to be “God”? If there is “one and only true god”, how can there be many? What does it mean to be God if there can be many? Doesn’t that sort of take away from the definition of “God”? We (out here on coffee) use the word a lot, but let’s get serious! Are there lots of gods? How does that make any of them “gods” then? They must be peers? Do they always agree with each other? Do they disagree? If so, who wins? Who decides?
I think those who are used to the idea of there being many real gods fail to understand what “God” means.
Stop and think it over a little, will ya?
Interesting story Kevin,
Just after the Sydney temple was built, someone took a pot-shot at the Moroni on top. The shot missed by a mile and ended up going through a small window in the steeple about 2 to 3 metres below Moroni. Most members I know laughed it off and requested that the hole be sealed with a clear resin (it was a stained glass window) to ‘show it off’ for future enjoyment. That was 23 years ago now and I think they have actually replaced the window now as I can’t see the hole anymore.
But I agree that there is some ‘idolatry’ in the LDS church. One of which is JS (yes I do agree there). I have made the comment a number of times that I heard a talk by one of the GAs about when he visited a ward in another stake. All through sacrament meeting the only times he heard the name of Jesus was at the end of talks (ie the usual endings), in the hymns and the prayers. He said that this is not on because we are the Church of Jesus Christ and as such we should do as it says in 2 Nephi – we talk of Christ, we preach of Christ, etc. No matter what the talk or lesson is about we should always have Jesus in it. That is what he said in the talk and I cannot find it on the internet but I took it to heart and since then I have always tried to have Jesus in the lessons and talks I give, regardless of the topic.
But the big thing is, we teach that the doctrine/gospel is perfect, not the people. So yes we will make mistakes, focus on the wrong things, etc – but that does not make the doctrine any less true.
I think the biggest idol we see in Mormonism is the cult of the minigodmen. It’s total self-absortion; attempting to work oneself into a postion of being a god. A mebegod who will be worshipped and adored, prayed to and will dispense gifts and favor to those subjects meeting the minigodman’s approval. The evolutionary path on the way to diety includes a program of works and striving to get up the Celestial ladder. And of course, it’s always just out of reach and there’s no knowing for the minigodman if he’s done enough to qualify for the big corner office in the Celestial Kingdom. I’m guessing that none of our Mormon posters here are making a successful run at making it to being a minigodman. I don’t see much god material with the Mormon posters. The talent pool of potential minigodmen is pretty shallow based on what I’ve seen here.
Give it up boys. Acknowledge who God is and what he has done for you through His Son Jesus Christ. The mocking of the One eternal, everlasting God makes me fear for these people. The Bible says that that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Fear in this context means respect. Giving that what we are seeing here is a parade of fools. Only a fool would mock God.
Hey Ralph, I am glad you can recognizes the faults with the LDS Org, I think that is great.
You said “But the big thing is, we teach that the doctrine/gospel is perfect, not the people. So yes we will make mistakes, focus on the wrong things, etc – but that does not make the doctrine any less true”
This is where you and I take different roads. When people ask me, why did you leave the church, they expect to hear a story about how I was offended by someone. But that is not true, as a matter of fact I have talked to a lot of ExMo’s and none of them left because of being offended, they all left because of doctrinal reasons.
Here is the idolatry in the Doctrine.
1. Man can become Gods (This puts the focus on the individual and His progression through works)
2. Working your Way to Salvation (Kinda like number two, but more inclusive to women. Through you, yourself, your person, you can build your salvation ladder)
Not Doctrinal but cultural
3. Please be honest with this one Ralph. How many men have you seen “Interviewing” to be the next Stake President, Bishop, Elders Quorum leader? Theses people, when ever given the opportunity to, will pull there Spiritual Cadillac out and try to impress any one who is listening.
The people make up the sum of who the organization is. I agree that people are not perfect, to include your Prophets, which is why I do not trust them; each with his own individual personality.
If the Prophets are trustworthy, then why did Hinckly say, ” I don’t know that we teach that, I don’t know that, that has a placing the church” about what a previous prophet said?
Do your leaders see God with their real eyes or spiritual eyes?
Do your leaders talk to God?
If they do not talk to God, then why do they allow the members to believe that they do?
If they do talk to God, when was the last time that any one of them said, “Here is what God told me”?
I was not prepared for Jesus to take over my life when He came to get it.
I worshiped my spouse.
I had step-children, and thought I was a saint for taking care of them.
I spent all my time on pointless activities, had all the money I needed, did whatever I wanted.
And God mercifully took it away from me.
Oh, I didn’t think it was merciful at the time. And I pretty much thought I could control the outcome… if I would just be good enough for long enough, I would get back everything.
It took me quite a while to see for myself that I wasn’t in charge; that God is.
And every time I fought Him for control, I ended up the loser of the fight.
I cried, I begged, I fasted, I prayed. I started going to a Christian counselor, going regularly to Church, reading the Bible. But He was making no deals with me, in the state I was in.
Finally, I gave up. I saw my place compared to Him and acknowledged that He’s the boss; I was done making a mess.
After what seemed like forever, I looked around myself and realized something. I hadn’t been mortally wounded after all. I was okay, just being with God. I didn’t need all that money… in fact, I was happier without it. I didn’t need the spouse; in fact, my spouse (who had been adulterous) had been part of the misery I had been helpless to let go of. The kids… I still have a bond with them, praise the Lord.
But everything I had made my world full of, God took away so that I could see that I could trust Him alone.
And once He had that settled in my mind, He started giving me things back, a little at a time. A sweetheart, a good job, children of my own.
And in the middle of it all, He gave me friends like I’ve never had before. Some of them are Christian, and some have become Christian since our paths crossed. But all of them are REAL friends.
Looking back at what happened to me, I realize that the same thing happened to Israel, and I KNOW, GOD is the God of the Bible.
Set Free, That is a great post, Outstanding, and thank you for sharing those details with us.
you said, “But all of them are REAL friends.” Good for you I am glad that you found that.
When I left the LDS Org. I found out that most of my friendships were Conditional. Meaning, they were my friends so long as I was a member, after I left they claim to be my friends but I have only heard from one of them.
No matter, I am finding better friends, ones who like me for me and not for how much service I give to a Church.
Setfree,
I like those questions, but answering them is not easy.
1) Have I ‘seriously’ considered? I’d say no, but I have made some remarks about it sometimes.
2) If there is one and only one true father for you how can there be other many?
3) I am a father to my children but not to you, does that take away from the definition of ‘father’ for you?
4) Yes there are, but there happens to be only one that created us and all that we have and He is our one and only true God.
5) They have the power, authority, etc that falls under the definition of ‘god’. They can create worlds, populate them with creatures/beings, control these universes, etc.
6) I agree they must be ‘peers’/collegues, etc.
7) In the big things yes they do agree with each other. That is the definition of Godhead and Zion or to a lesser extent Team. Everyone within that grouping are of one mind, one purpose and goal, etc. They agree on the major things that affect the whole. But when it comes to the minor things there may be differences, but no arguments or debates. Eg we are taught that everything in the CK will be white, so I keep saying that I will dye my hair bright blue just to stand out. Then there are people that make comments about what they are going to do when creating their own worlds – eg my mum likes black berries but hates the thorns on the bushes, so she’s going to grow blackberries without the thorns. Who’s to say that another person hates blackberries so they’d grow them with larger thorns or some other deterrent? So there will be small and insignificant differences but no arguments – this is my opinion not doctrine.
I disagree with your last comment, but that is my opinion.
Ralph, Thanks for thinking about it a little.
I’ve been asking my ex-mo friends/family whether or not they wanted to be a god, back when that was their belief. Everyone of them has said something along the lines of “I always kinda figured I’d never be one, but I’d probably be a ministering angel or something”
Do you think you will be a god Ralph?
I think it’s harmful that Mormons don’t follow through too often along this line of thought. What you said to me in 7 is kinda what I came up with when I thought about it… that is, we all want to have control over our own space, want what we want, want to be boss, want to see what things will be like when we rule the world.
But what about the other aspect? That is, if we are gods like God is God, won’t we have to answer prayers non stop for the rest of eternity? Or at least a big part of it? How many of us want to hear our little spirit brats saying “oh yeah, there is no god” and then saying “Oh God, save me” when they get in trouble. Do you want the job?
My conclusion is what I already said: we want to be gods because we want what we want, and we don’t want anyone to have the authority over us.
And yet… the God of the Bible, He is the authority, whether we like it or not… but it’s for our own good. He loves us with a passion we do not understand, and works things out for us in ways we cannot imagine. So?
Do we keep shaking our fists at Him? or do we accept that “I AM that I AM” is in charge?
by the way, one of the verses that LDS use to say they can be gods says that the gods will die. Is that in your definition of god? Psalm 82:6, don’t forget the next verse Psalm 82:7
Kevin,
Just to make sure all understand – I have never said that people leave the LDS church because of offence or sin. I know people that have left because they chose not to believe anymore. There are only 2 or three people I know that have left because of sin or being offended. So I am fine with what you have said. But remember, you left because you decided not to believe in the LDS church any more because of what you considered false doctrine and all I can say about it is that just because you have decided it is false does not mean that it is.
1) God’s work and glory is to bring us to Him and to exaltation. I am focusing on His work when I go out and help others. I am focusing on His glory when I go to church and worship Him. I am not thinking about what it would be like to be a god, I am thinking about what it would be like to be in the presence of my true Father and know love like I never have before. His bestowal of a gift of power and authority that will allow me to create other worlds has nothing to do with it. Many members I know think and feel the same. Yes we make comments now and then about what we ‘want’ to do, but we rarely discuss the actualities of it. Our focus is on God’s work and glory.
2) I have answered this one many times. Brief answer – I am not building my own salvation ladder. Jesus built it for me – I just have to climb it.
3) I have seen the stake presidency change a few times in my life. The first one I remember my father was called to be second counsellor. All of the people interviewed agreed on who the actual stake pres should be except the man they nominated, and he was called. Again, when my brother-in-law was called, all who were interviewed named him except him. Yes, there are some who want to try and look more spiritual, but in the long run it doesn’t work. So I disagree with your sentiment here.
I’ve not heard or read Tim Keller before, but I’m impressed.
I’m impressed that;
1 He knows his Bible, and
2 He has a very frank and candid view of life.
He’s given me a lot to think about. Do I have idols? I think I may, particularly my ‘need’ to be liked, needed and accepted. May God save me, but may He not unduly trouble the people in my life who like, need and accept me.