“You can’t really administer the gospel in a life-changing way unless you also, like Paul always did, discern and expose and challenge the idols of your place… If you’re trying to communicate the gospel to anybody you need to know what their idols are, because the gospel is [that] you’re saved by grace, and the idol is that you’re saved by something else… Do you realize how many different forms of works salvation there are? ” – Timothy Keller
Jesus makes all of us uncomfortable.
For those who idolize a church, he calls us to be willing to leave it.
For those of us who have idolized the family that said they would leave us if we leave Mormonism and become a born-again Christian, he calls us to “hate” our family (Luke 14:26).
For those of us who idolize money, he calls us to sell everything we have and follow him.
For those of us who idolize our self-righteousness and pride, he calls us to reach a desperation and declare spiritual bankruptcy (Romans 4:4-5).
For those of us who idolize a nice and tidy top-down human structure that governs our lives, he calls us to endure and serve the messy Bride of Christ.
For those of us who idolize human authority, he calls us to rebuke them for their sins.
For those of us who idolize human relationships, he calls us to be lonely for a season.
For those of us who idolize the scoffing of those without truth, he calls us to learn compassion by getting intimately involved in others’ lives.
For those of us who idolize ourselves as gods-in-embryo, he calls us to worship the only God that will ever be.
For those of us who idolize food, he calls us to fast.
The gospel is about looking outside ourselves to trust the righteousness and exaltation and provision of another, Jesus Christ. Only then will we be made righteous, sanctified, and glorified.
Friends, the Lord is ready and willing to save you and to immediately forgive all your sins and give you eternal life! Declare spiritual bankruptcy and stop trying to earn your own forgiveness or prove your own worthiness. Stop worshiping a false God who was once a mere man before he became a God. Worship the God who always was, is, and will be God for all worlds. Stop showing up at the “temp agency” where you think you can earn your own wages with divine assistance, and instead show up at God’s gracious welfare office for free forgiveness and a transformed heart.
Jesus gets all the glory that way!
Jason, Unlike you I will talk open about any sugject, But the problem with you is you dont give us a list of what you will not talk about, you appear to avoid questions, while your LDS friends talk about these same subjects you avoid, thats why I see you being dishonest.
Pooka said
Please give me examples of me doing this, If I accuse the LDS of being dishonest I at least back it up as to why, Not just simply say so. Rick b
Aaron said:
” In the intermediate state until the resurrection I will dwell outside of space “
So after the resurrection you will no longer dwell outside of space?
I’ve always been taught that evs will dwell with God for eternity but it seems that you are saying that after the resurrection God will still be outside of space and time but you (and other evs) will not be and therefore you will not be with God.
How does that work exactly? I’m not trying to lead you with this, I have an honest interest in your answer. Thanks.
Rick B, I have posted several questions to evs on this board that have been totally ignored. In fact one of my questions I posted at least twice maybe three times – total silence.
The difference between me and you is I didn’t start crying and calling everyone dishonest. If you would like we can exchange questions now. Ask me a question then I’ll ask you one and we can both answer. Sound good?
Jason, If EV’s ignore your questions I have no control over them. I am simply saying many LDS do dodge questions and I call you guys on it. I have gone out of my way to answer every question asked of me, and if I miss a question I have stated before to LDS, Simply point out what I missed, remind me and I will answer it.
You said to ask you a question, Here is one I am still waiting for a reply on
At one time you said Hell was real, then you said it was a metaphor, It cannot be both.
Then read Matthew 5:29-30 Jesus takes Hell very serious, and speaks as if it is really burning, Not just a bad place like you say. Rick b
Jason, please give a list of questions not answered that you would like an answer to. That may help.
Thanks.
Jason, like I said earlier. I have never heard anyone but a hardened atheist call the God of the bible a dictator. Can you please provide scriptural support for that position? Or do you come to that conclusion based upon your understanding of Christian theology?
Jason and liv4jc,
The definition of ‘dictator’ from an online dictionary is – a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession. This does describe God. However, He is not like human dictators, He is benevolent to His people and tries to do what He can for them.
But remember Jason, we LDS believe that God is the ultimate authority and ruler of this earth. We will become kings and queens, priests and priestesses to Him but He will alwys rule over us. So we too believe in a ‘dictatorial God’. The church and God’s Kingdom is not a democracy, we bow to His supremacy and rule, we do not vote on what happens and disregard His word if we don’t like it. If we do, then we will be ‘kicked out’ of His Kingdom. So before you make wild comments, think about your own beliefs and what they entail.
Ralph,
Thanks for engaging with Jason. Perhaps if you two get into a civil discourse here, it might help dispel the impression that LDS just make everything up in splendid isolation, without any consideration to what anyone else says. Heck, we (the outsiders) might even learn something from it.
PS I’m genuinely sorry if I sound a little jaded – I’m sincerely trying not to be.
Regarding the Adam/God ‘gospel’, Jason wrote “there are certain doctrinal or spiritual things that you just don’t discuss in a public forum”
Paul didn’t seem to have a problem with it – see 2 Tim 4:2.
Are you embarrassed at your ‘gospel’. Paul wasn’t – see Romans 1:6.
Are you sure you’re even preaching the same gospel? See Col 1:23 “This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
Surely we qualify as “creatures under heaven”?
So, please, let us have it.
Ralph, do you believe in a God that casts men, women and children into the fire pits alive for eternity?
Martin, everything I’ve said about the ev God is absolutely true and straight from ev doctrine. I’m not making anything up or playing games or twisting logic.
Your God, at this very moment, holds billions upon billions of living breathing human beings against their will in torture camps throughout his/its vast kingdom. And he/it holds them there for the simple reason of not “accpting him” and to top it all off he put them here out of no choice of their own. Maybe the term ‘dictator’ is being kind to the ev God since he’s a thousand times worse than anything we’ve seen on earth. Do you deny that? Do you renounce that doctrine right now on this board?? Do you reject it?
If you deny it you walk away this very moment from evangelical Christianity forever. Ralph may view God as a dictator but I do not. I reject the idea from the very bottom and depth of my soul just as much as I reject the ev God.
I do however, as Ralph said, bow to the supremacy of my God and His Son Jesus Christ without question or hesitation and always will.
Regarding the other issue, I wouldn’t even know where to start and it would be a pointless discussion anyway.
Martin, I was thinking about this further and maybe you are misunderstanding my core points. To be clear, I use the term ‘dictator’ or ‘fascist’ as a catchall and way to describe and bring to mind the greatest evil possible. The greatest genocidal maniacal evil known to man on this earth can usually be invoked with those terms. The activities within those regimes are inspired directly by Satan and his minions. Would you agree with that?
Satan is alive and well and his government on active display around the world and we know Satan’s plan in the beginning was total control over man and absolute power just as we find within a communist-style regime.
Based on crystal clear ev doctrine that cannot be refuted, the ev God can be found in the afterlife to be taking part in the exact same activities we rightly call evil on this earth. In fact, based on ev doctrine the ev God is a billion times worse than all of our worst combined.
I will go even further and say if the ev God, at this moment, holds even a single innocent living breathing individual soul against his/her will in a torture camp burning alive then when you pray you kneel before a tyrant and I may add are a willing sycophant participant in his sick perverted behavior and you encourage via fawning servile compliance the perverted practices.
So my question to you Martin: does your God currently have people, including young women and girls, burning alive in the torture camps?
Jason,
That the religion you believe in makes you hate the God of the Bible is a strong statement all by itself.
setfree, can you just answer the question?
Does your God currently have people, including young women and girls, burning alive in the torture camps?
Aaron said:
” In the intermediate state until the resurrection I will dwell outside of space “
So after the resurrection you will no longer dwell outside of space?
Ev doctrine is that you will dwell with God for eternity but it seems that you are saying that after the resurrection God will still be outside of space and time but you (and other evs) will not be and therefore you will not be with God.
How does that work exactly? Still waiting for your answer.
Jason Rae, like most traditional Christians I believe in two-substance dualism, which is a fancy term to say: My immaterial spirit continues to exist after my body’s death. And I will be spirit without a body until the resurrection. The assumption that “dwelling with God” in the intermediate state necessarily entails physical proximity is tainted by the Mormon assumption that everything is made of material and has shape and size.
You say, “it seems that you are saying that after the resurrection God will still be outside of space and time”, yet I already said, “My relationship with God depends on God intersecting his timeless unchanging nature with a time-bound finite being like me. My God relates to me in time but he doesn’t dwell in time as though deity itself was time-bound.”
If you’re going to interact with traditional Christians so much, I would recommend doing something we have done: read some key books. I have read many Mormon books explaining aspects of the Mormon worldview. I would recommend getting this book, at least for reference:
Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, by Wayne Grudem
Meanwhile, I’ll try to put some material together on Theopedia.com for you and others so I don’t merely say, “go read a book!” 🙂
Jason:
D&C 137:2-3
“I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of [the celestial] kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son”
Is this your heaven, your god? (all this fire… kinda reminds me of … hell?)
Or is this your God:
D&C 20:28:
“Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE GOD, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen”
Care to explain that one?
Since your church has baptized Hitler, why don’t you quit with the old concentration camp routine?
Jason, your rather funny.
You say to Aaron, I’m still waiting for an answer. You said to me, ask me a question and I will answer, I asked you a question and you ignored it yet again, but went on to ask other questions.
Then you said we EV’s dodge your question, yet who Dodged? Plus Michael point blank asked you, give me some of these questions your saying have been avoided and I will try and answer them, You have yet to give them. Are you a liar? Or what am I missing here? Rick b
Rick, In Matthew 5 Christ says to rip your eyeball from its socket if it causes you to sin. Do you know any Christians that have two gaping holes in their skulls because they felt Christ recommended self-mutilation? I don’t. Metaphor. It’s obvious that Christ uses strong metaphor to get important points across effectively.
In the LDS view after a person dies, they will be in a temporary condition or place awaiting judgment and resurrection. If you have trouble accepting that remember that Christ said to the thief on the cross “today thou shalt be with me in paradise” – however the resurrected Christ, after being dead for 3 days met Mary in the garden and said: “touch me not for I am not yet ascended to my Father…” etc
So Christ said he would be in paradise that very day to the thief and yet had not ascended to the Father 3 days later. Where was he for those 3 days? Is it not clear here that “paradise” meant something other than final salvation? Yes it does.
So we have clear biblical backing for a temporary place in the afterlife where we await judgement and resurrection. LDS call this the spirit world and it has two dimensions: paradise and “hell” or outer darkness.
However, this spirit prision or hell is not of eternal duration since eventually everyone will recieve some degree of a heavenly reward.
“A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner, hence the saying, ‘They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.’ The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone.” – JS
The suffering of hell is real but for the thousandth time the alien fascist God doesn’t stand at the gate and personally lead 14 year old girls to their ultimate doom. In the spirit of Paul, we left the 5th grade a long time ago, let’s set aside 5th grade theology as well.
Jason, When Jesus said to remove your eye if it Offends, I agree that was a metaphor, But on the other hand God/Jesus was clear, Hell is a real place of torment and stated it as such many times in the Bible. Rick b
My question for you Rick: does your God currently have people, including young women and girls (some similar in age to your own daughter), burning alive in the torture camps?
You know Rick, you talk about LDS dodging questions, isn’t it interesting that Martin will not answer my question, setfree will not answer my question and when Aaron answered my earlier question you could tell he struggled quite hard with it and therefore we get this, what I call, “creed-speak” that just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It sounds high and mighty but is void of any real substance. And he even admitted it wasn’t 100% biblical.
So my official softball question for you Rick:
Does your God currently have people, including young women and girls (some similar in age to your own daughter), burning alive in the torture camps?
Jason,
seeing as your blind and only want to hear what you want to hear, and do not care about the truth I guess I will explain it this way.
No God does not have torture camps. God is holy, we are not Holy, Read the Bible, are hearts are deceitful and wicked. God says nothing unclean or impure will ever enter heaven. the Bible tells us that their are two roads, one leads to life, the other to destruction.
The Bible says very few will find the road that leads to life, but many are on the road to death. The Bible tells us if we are not following Jesus then our father is the devil since we can only follow one or the other. We will all end up in hell if we reject the gift of God.
You can word it how ever you want Jason, but the Bible is very clear and you are simply calling God a liar by rejecting His Word. So if we reject Jesus He will reject us, and we will end up in hell forever. Rick b
Rick said:
“No God does not have torture camps”
Then what is Hell Rick?? Everybody there having a tea party?
You say Hell is not a torture camp but yet in prior posts you make it clear that Hell is a physical place of fire. It seems you are backing away from traditional ev doctrine. Let me ask it a different way:
Does your God currently have people, including young women and girls (some similar in age to your own daughter), burning alive in a very hot place?
Just yes or no Rick.
Jason, I answered your question many times , Grow up and stop playing games. Rick b
Rick said:
“Yes, my God currently has people, including young women and girls (some similar in age to my daughter), burning alive and I still love Him”
So the ev god is so vacant and void of intelligent thought that the only thing it can think to do with young girls, children and babies is burn them alive because they didn’t “accept him”. How retarded. This is nothing more than a brainwashed cult.
Tribute to the ev God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_sY2rjxq6M
” Burn baby burn.
To mass fires, yes. One hundred stories high!
People gettin’ loose y’all gettin’ down on the roof – Do you hear?
The folks are flaming. Folks were screamin’ – out of control
It was so entertainin’ – when the boogie started to explode
I heard somebody say
Burn baby burn – Disco inferno
Burn baby burn – Burn that mama down “
Jason quoted Rick saying:
Where exactly did Rick Say that? Looks like when Rick said your a liar, he was correct. Looks like your speaking for him.
Shelli,
Rick did the same thing to me on another blog last week. He asked me if I lived the WoW and I never answered him, but he started saying that I told him I did not live the WoW. When I mentioned it to him he said that he never wrote that, so I showed him where he did. I never received an acknowledgment about the discrepency in his next few posts, he just left it as if it never happened. So watch who you call a liar and why you call them a liar because it fits Rick in this situation.
In response to my earlier query about the word “fascist”, Jason wrote “To be clear, I use the term ‘dictator’ or ‘fascist’ as a catchall and way to describe and bring to mind the greatest evil possible.”
Fair enough.
The term “fascist” derives from the Italian for “fist”. It arose after the First World War when a certain stream of brutalized war veterans decided that he only way to get what they wanted was to physically beat the opposition; metaphorically, with their fists, but guns were more efficient.
The murder of one prominent journalist polarized public opinion, but we can justifiably imagine the “fascists” responding with “well, he deserved it”.
So, the connotation of the term is someone who doesn’t engage the opposition with argument and reason, but simply beats them into submission.
Judging from your posts, I think that this pugilistic stance sums up your position quite well.
Hence the irony, Jason “talk to the fist” Rae.
Jason Rae,
It’s actually hyperbole.
Peace…
Ralph,
I honestly must have missed it, instead of cutting and pasting for me just tell me, is it further back up this thread? If so I will go look up exactly what I said and get back to you, Because despite what you think, I try to make great effort to answer every question and be very honest.
It could be a matter of how I wrote or worded something. Or I replied back to you and either missed part of my reply or you did not understand.
But even if me or another Christian lies, that does not mean LDS never Lie or make it ok for LDS to lie.
And in Jasons case, not only did I answer him, but he completely made up[ a statment that I never said and then went and quoted me on it, thats not only lying but it is also different from what your claiming I did. Rick b
Pooka,
Sorry for the late reply. I put windows in my house this weekend and just began a second year of law school. That will also mean I won’t post here quite as often, but will certainly seek to check in daily.
But you asked about what I thought about being a co-heir. Someone addressed the issue above, and I pretty much agree with it.
But in a simple understanding, I think we are co-heirs in that we inherit eternal life. What we do not inherit are the powers of God. God is something different from what we are, and thus we can never be like him fully, but he will give us eternal life.
But step back and think about what an heir is: it is something who inherits something, and it is usally given at the death of the person bequeathing the object or title. That is not always the case, but when the original owner bequeathes it to the heir, he relenquishes control. He gives the heir whatever it is.
So, I am not sure that the LDS use of that phrase is correct, since God is always God and always retains the powers that God has.
And think then about what I just said and what the Bible says about Christ and the powers he has, which he shares with the father. God didn’t give them away; Christ already had them.
From the LDS persepective that we are all the same species, your view can make sense. But the Bible does not say we are the same species, so my thoughts, I think, make more sense…
Martin, very clever and good sleuthing. I love it. 🙂
~
jackg, hyperbole? Really. So no one is in Hell right now? Including those that didn’t accept Christ? And the entire most recent post from setfree isn’t hyperbole? And all the nonsense on the BoA isn’t hyperbole?
~
shelli, read carefully, that’s exactly what Rick said. And why wouldn’t he since the quote is clear ev doctrine for at least a thousand years or more. Is that something shelli that you want to back away from? You see my goal is to slowly pull you evs out of the cult of fascism and tyranny and share with you the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, namely that mans destiny is a glorious one and that God has a level of salvation for all His children.
Clearly Hell is not a good state, no one is sitting around sipping darjeeling but thankfully it does not last forever.
It is ev doctrine that we either go straight to heaven or straight to hell after we die but that argument got Nagasakied by my prior post on Christ telling the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise, yet three days later Christ had not ascended to His father. So we know, as restored Christianty teaches, that there is a place after death where we await judgement and resurrection and then recieve a dgree of glory as Paul explains so well.
Tyranny gone. Fascism gone. Torture gone. Young girls burning alive by God, gone. Trailer park theology, gone. Apostasy real. Ev God obliterated.
To add to what Micheal said about being a Co-heir, Police use Dogs, once the dog is fully trained they have a police dog. If you harm or kill that dog it is as if you killed a police officer, So the dog is a co-heir in a sense that a dog is called a cop and treated as human, yet the dog is not human.
Jason, I have stated many times Hell is real, I quoted scripture where Jesus talks about the rich man in torment and wants someone to go to his brothers to warm them. Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven. Have you read the entire book of Revelation? Do you believe all that God said will happen to the earth with all the bowl and plague judgments is merely hyperbole? What about Noah’s flood? Did God destroy possibly 6 billion people or is that also hyperbole?
Hell and torment are real, I never denied that, but the quote you gave was a lie, I never worded it that way and never said it that way. So we have an LDS making up quotes and saying people said them when in fact I never said that. How can you call your self an honest mormon when your making up lies? Do you really expect Non-LDS lurkers to believe the BoM when you must lie to defend it.
Many Christians have spoken about LDS believing lies and lying, your only proving us to be correct, so in a way I guess I’m glad you were never booted, you are only proving to others what we have been saying all along. Rick b
If that’s not what you were getting at Rick then the only conclusion is that you think there are billions of people in heaven even though they did not accept Christ in this life. You can’t have it both ways.
You can’t say “hell is not a torture camp” and in the same breath say “hell is where you burn forever”. The world doesn’t work that way and it would make it hard to function on a daily basis if one were so conflicted.
So the burden is on you to clarify your doctrine for us. You either have to back away from over a thousand years of ev theology or embrace it and say God is justified for burning the young girls. Some evs say God is to be glorified for burning the young infidels, I’ve been told that to my face by more than one ev.
So which is it Rick? If 14 year old Rutka Laskier (Jew) (prior post) did not accept Christ in her short life, is she burning in Hell right now?
That’s a very specific question that if you give a specific answer it will clear all this up. So please be very clear here Rick: Where’s Rutka?
I think the problem is you, You reject Scripture and call it metaphor, you cannot explain if Revelation and Jesus speaking in terms of this really will happen.
Then as I have said before, Hell is not a torture camp, Jesus described hell more as a rubbish heap or garbage dump. Plus Jesus speak of the wheat and the tares, if were not wheat then we are a tare, no middle ground.
Jesus said the tares will be burned with fire. Jesus said NO ONE IS GOOD, God said are hearts are deceitful and wicked and were all evil. The bible teaches Evil, wicked, unclean or impure will EVER ENTER HEAVEN.
So if we are these things apart from Christ then we will not enter heaven, and if we do not go to heaven and you believe we do not go to hell, then show me from the Bible where we do go, But you and I both know, you can only resort to calling Gods word hyperbole and metaphor, and cannot show me a 3rd option from the Bible, Their is other options if you look outside of Gods word. Rick b
Rick said: “then show me from the Bible where we do go”
I did exactly that. Christ said to the thief on the cross “this day you will be with me in paradise” yet 3 days later when Christ appeared to Mary he made it clear he had not yet been to the father.
Wouldn’t it seem more plausible that Christ did as Peter said he did and “preached unto the spirits in prison”? (1 Peter 3)
And also: ” For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead… ” (4:6)
Should we consider also that first century Christians believed that Christ descended into the spirit world following his crucifixion? There are a number of examples from ancient literature that Christ preached to the dead in the spirit world and several early Christians wrote about Christ’s spirit world ministry. Clement of Alexandria said that “Christ went down to Hades [spirit world] for no other purpose than to preach the gospel”.
Doesn’t it make more sense that when Christ said he had not yet ascended to the Father that he really had not? The implications are that when one dies they go to the “spirit world” where they await final judgement and resurrection. And therefore the thief on the cross was not ‘saved’ in the evangelical sense of salvation simply for acknowledging Christ.
In the face of this biblical evidence where do you think Christ went for those three days?
Also it seems pretty clear that you are saying Rutka is burning in Hell right now, so therefore, I did not misquote you in my prior post.
Jason said
You have not given any Biblical evidence to support your view, and it is clear you do not know your Bible. If your going to bring up Sheol and say that after Christ died He went to hell or paradise then read the whole account. Their was 2 sides, One side was hell where the rich man was in torment, Jesus spoke of this that is how I know it exists. The other side was called Abraham’s bosom, Again Jesus spoke about this, that is how I know it’s true.
Then the rich man spoke to Abraham and said father send over someone with a drop of water to touch my tongue to cool the burning. Then Abraham said sorry but their is a great gulf between us, so no one on this side can go to you and you cannot come to this side. So unless all of this is mere hyperbole, it appears their are two sides. Side one is torment, side two is paradise.
Then if you go on to read your bible, you will see that after Jesus rose from the dead, The graves were opened and the dead rose with Jesus, so these dead are the dead that were on the paradise side. `
Rick b
Rick said:
“it appears their are two sides. Side one is torment, side two is paradise.”
I agree 100%. In the afterlife the “spirit world” is essentially divided into two different places. We are in complete agreement here.
My larger point is that this state of being in the spirit world is temporary – a place where we await judgement and resurrection. Paradise is not heaven, it’s not the final place where we dwell with God as we can infer from the thief on the cross and I’ll repeat for emphasis and clarification:
Christ said to the thief on the cross “this day you will be with me in paradise” yet 3 days later when Christ appeared to Mary he made it clear he had not yet been to the father.
That would mean “paradise” is something other than dwelling with God. This means God doesn’t immediately cast someone into Hell for eternity the moment they die (like some fascist tyrant) but rather in the spirit world we are either extremely happy or we suffer depending on how we lived on earth. And then eventually everyone will be resurrected to some degree of glory as Paul explains so well in Corinthians 15:
” There are also heavenly bodies as well as earthly bodies. Heavenly bodies have one kind of glory. Earthly bodies have another. The sun has one kind of glory. The moon has another kind. The stars have still another. And one star’s glory is different from that of another star. It will be like that with bodies that are raised from the dead. “
Do you agree that the thief was in paradise but yet not with God?
Jason, Jason, Jason. Are you trying to say you believe in the “telestial” kingdom. The kingdom “of the distance”. lol
You really need to read all of Corinthians 15, and see what is being talked about, and being broken down into two categories… earthly, and heavenly.
Terrestrial (of the earth) and Celestial (of the heavens).
Telestial? LOL
Joseph’s Myth.
setfree, Do you agree that the thief was in paradise but yet not with God?
Jason, Paradise was also Abraham’s bosom, After Jesus died he was in Paradise/Abraham’s bosom till he rose from the dead.
Then all the saints including the thief rose from the dead, that was spoken of when the graves were opended and the dead came forth. Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Notice it said SAINTS, It was not both sides that rose, only those in paradise. The ones in hell are still their until the final judgment.
So the thief rose from paradise with Jesus and is now in Heaven.
Also you have the verse in 1 cor 15 taken out of context, Their is no way you can pull 3 different heavens and all that LDS teach about these 3 from that one verse. You guys really make stuff up. Rick b
Rick, the larger point is simply that there is a space between death and the resurrection. The thief went there and everyone that dies goes there. There is no immediate assignment to Heaven or Hell. That’s the core point.
People aren’t resurrected immediately after they die so therefore there must be a place for them and that place is the spirit world. Once you allow for that dynamic in the afterlife a major tenet of ev doctrine goes away. The tyranny goes away as well and it’s just a short jump from there to take out the alien.
Jason Rae,
I have argued with this same argument. Eventually, you will see that it really leads nowhere. When you consider that Jesus is God, the thief was with God. Praying for you.
Blessings…
Jason Rae,
I have read more of your posts, despite the fact that what you write is not worth reading. But, you are insistent on an answer which neither you nor I can give because we simply are not God. You keep bringing up Rutka to try and prove that God has her burning in hell. Well, the one thing you need to understand is that God is Sovereign and can do whatever He pleases. He could wipe you off the face of this earth right now because of your offensive views and rude attitude. But, He has chosen to let you live in hopes that you will repent and come to Him in humility. John Wesley, a Godly man whom God used to teach us more about His grace, taught that we will be judged according to the Light we have received. Right now, if I were you, I would be more concerned with where your heretical views are leading you. You think you hold some sort of trump card with the Jews when you don’t have anything. You try to reason as a man reasons to the point that you think you can tell God what is just and unjust. Read Ezekiel 18 for more of that. However, when you try to tie your views in with the heresies of JS, which even contradict what your BOM teaches, you present yourself as sadly uninformed and puffed up in your own weak understanding of heavenly things. I can admit that I am weak in my understanding of heavenly things. Can you?
Praying for your repentance…
jackg, clearly there is much about Heaven that we do not know but much has been revealed and yes I do claim certain knowledge given me of the spirit that the natural man cannot understand.
So I can say without hesitation that Rutka Laskier is not burning in Hell right now based on the conditions presented in my prior post. And any being (God or whatever) that puts her there is not worthy of my respect or worship.
The way you present things one would truly have to wonder if God doesn’t really have 8 heads and 70 eyeballs as you guys admit *could possibly* be the case. I’m not saying you believe that but just the fact that you are open to it is ridiculous and clear evidence of doctrinal chaos. Death to the alien.
You said: “When you consider that Jesus is God, the thief was with God”
Then why did Christ tell Mary that he had not yet ascended to the Father 3 days later?
Jason said
Your still wrong and you REALLY need to read your Bible, I know since you do not like the Bible it’s hard for you to read it.
After death, non-believers go to hell as I pointed out with scripture. The Bible also teaches that after man dies then comes judgment, for you to say thats not true means, either your wrong or Gods word is.
the people in paradise rose with Jesus, now the true believers go to heaven and await their final boldly resurrection as scripture teaches, and those in hell await their final judgment before being tossed into the lake of fire.
I’m not going to keep spoon feeding you this stuff, you need to read the Bible for yourself, it’s all in the Bible, even if you do not like it. Rick b
For the ev lurkers transitioning out of the gospel of fascism, torture, Godly crime and tyranny I propose a celebratory theme song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV0fmNo7474
Even if you don’t like this as a transition theme at least watch for the brilliant use of the iPhone’s Leaf Trombone. Truly sweet.
For the more savy ev lurkers who may be pinned in like a boar between arches but yet would like to see the alien God’s head in a sling I propose a 2nd theme song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgXzChwipY
To follow it, you must be clean.
Hi Jason,
From one of your posts:
“this day you will be with me in paradise” yet 3 days later when Christ appeared to Mary he made it clear he had not yet been to the father.
I think somewhere on this thread you quoted an original excerpt Luke 23.43 from the KJV
“Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
This excerpt makes no sense…’today shalt thou..”?
The full context of Luke 23.43
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.
That pesky ‘today shalt thou’ is there again.
How about this adjustment, considering that the KJV et al punctuation could be incorrect in relation to the orginal inspired Greek….did they have commas etc?
“And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise”.
Now that reads much more logically to me!
By using the word “today,” Jesus was stressing the time of His promise—not the time He would be in Paradise.