Glenn Beck, an outspoken member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, caused quite a stir on his July 13, 2010 broadcast when he spent a good portion of his show explaining the difference between the Christian view of individual salvation, and the collective view of salvation proffered by proponents of Black liberation theology. He explained:
“You cannot earn your way into heaven. You can’t! There is no deed, no random act of kindness, no amount of money to spread around to others that earns you a trip to heaven. It can’t happen. It’s earned by God’s grace alone, by believing that Jesus died on the cross for you. This is what Christians believe.”
I really believe that the EVs who spend their time criticizing LDS are not intelligent enough to understand our doctrine when it comes to faith and works. That is all I can come up with after having explained it hundreds of times, yet not one of them has been able to restate my explanation correctly.
Bill- do you understand that it is possible for obedience to be required for salvation, yet have salvation 100% the result of grace?
I honestly believe that you do not want to understand it- it is easier to simply cry out that mormons think they can save themselves, blah, blah, blah. And on with your “ministry.”
It becomes really so very old.
I suppose you can stick to your preferred defintion of the word “earned” in all those statements from church leaders without considering the true meaning of what they are saying.
You can call it sloppy to use that term, but those leaders would absolutely disagree with the idea that we can save ourselves through any degree of righteousness. And I think you know that.
Those statements are emphasizing that we must do our part, which is following Christ to our fullest capacity and to repent. That is required. But none of that effort on our part does the actual saving. Can you understand that concept? It is fine if you disagree, but do you understand it intellectually?
If not, there is no reason to go any further in this discussion.
By the way, note Beck’s statement “To receive his salvation you accept his forgiveness of sin, and live your life, according to his will?” We must live our lives according to God’s will. Amen.
Beck didn’t say anything that contradicts LDS doctrine.
Hay OJ,
I’m getting a little tired of your insults about the intelligence of Christians. I’d suggest you take your vindictiveness off to another blog or perhaps the moderators should send you to sit in the corner for a week or so.
What do we know? We know first of all that Mormonism claims that there are millions perhaps billions of gods that achieved that status on the basis of their own efforts. That’s what the Mormon works program is all about. It’s about personal achievement through effort/works. Mormonism claims two different types of salvation; a general salvation offered to everyone who ever lived regardless of their level of faith or their conduct. The second level of salvation, as mentioned, has to do with the achievement of deity status by Mormon men that will allow them to have their own planetary systems, a number of goddess wives if the guy has accumulated them, where the male/god can procreated spirit children into eternity and achieve adoration and praise from those spirit offspring when they get a physical body.
That’s the Mormon program and within that context, we see that Mormon grace is nothing similar to that which God proclaims in the Bible. The Christian message is that there is one God, who is alone, holy and righteous. In order for man to be in God’s presence he must be totally free from the blemish of sin. We can’t achieve that on our own so God, in His benevolence, love and mercy became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. Christ atoned for our sin by His shed blood that who-so-ever receives God’s gift of grace through faith is granted eternal life.
Mormonism must be recognized for what it is, a fraudulent religion that attempts to sound like Christianity and counterfeit and hide the true nature of the religion.
In the end it really doesn’t matter how Mormons want to slice and dice the concepts of grace and works because they don’t know God. What they know is a pantheon of gods which they believe they will be one of if they fullfill the necessary requirements for entry into this exclusive club. It’s informative to note that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Mormon off-shoot that has become known as the Community of Christ and was headed by Smith’s son, rejected the polytheism which his father taught along with all of the aberrant and heretical beliefs that set SLC Mormonism a part from orthodox Christianity.
So, in the end, the SLC Mormon view of the nature of God puts the sect outside the mainstream of Christian doctrine. Whatever they say about grace and works is immaterial because the context is in regards to a religion that believes differently than Christianity.
In reading Beck’s article, we see a man who is articulating a conventional Christian point-of-view. This is in the context of one eternal, everlasting God. It’s classic monotheism.
Perhaps Beck should have started out by telling us if he believes in one God or a pantheon of gods. Then we could compare what he writes with what Mormon leaders/prophets have said on the subject.
Who someone believes God to be and what salvation is, is the bottom line of the discussion.
It’s clear that Mormons do not believe that they are granted deity status as a free gift without having had to do something to earn it.
Jim,
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you really think you understand Christian belief, and think that it is the same as Mormon beliefs. The truth is probably that you will never see the difference between the two until you are born-again.
It’s either that, or you are “lying for the lord” and believe that if you keep pretending in this way, you will succeed in deceiving other Mormons into staying in the church, or other Christians into getting into the church. Sick.
So, like I said, I’m gonna chalk it up to your being totally blind to the actual differences.
falcon,
Case in point.
Setfree,
I really am not interested in being like non-LDS Christians. I recognize big differences between the two groups.
But I refuse to allow others to misrepresent what I and other LDS believe (and yes- what the official doctrine is too).
And this is one of the most common claims- that we believe we save ourselves by our works. And Bill McKeever knows better, but he is able to find enough language to twist to portray that very idea about us.
Who is lying?
I have never believed I could save myself. I have never known another mormon who believed they could save themself.
Thia constant claim, like the one in this thread, would be no different than me insisting that EVs believe they can sin all they want- that all they have to do is utter the words- “I believe in Jesus” and that is all that is required.
I don’t go around saying that because it is incorrect (at least for most). The same is not true in return. There is a tremendous amount of dishonesty when it comes to EVs representing LDS doctrine.
Olsen,
Beck was the one who used that phrase. I merely used statements from your leaders to show Beck was not in harmony with them. How did I misrepresent either Beck or your leaders?
Bill,
You are suggesting we believe we can “earn our way into heaven” are you not?
Yes, there are things we must do to enter God’s kingdom. But you know very well that we understand very clearly that the only means of salvation is through Christ. Our works may be required, but they are not what saves us.
No Olsen, your leaders said Mormons must “earn their way into heaven.” Your leaders have made it very clear that exaltation is earned by the individual’s merit. Works “may” be required? If a Mormon has no “works,” can he still expect to be exalted?
If you get exalted unto godhood and are worshiped and prayed to by billions of your own spirit children as the Alpha and Omega Omnipotent Most High Holy of Holies Almighty Everlasting Eternal Father God, then yes, your merit has something to do with it.
Again, a test of intellect.
Are these two concepts mutually exclusive:
1. Individuals must follow Christ and follow His commandments to be saved.
2. Redemption, salvation, exaltation is entirely paid for by the work of Christ’s atonement.
Bill- honest question- do you reeeeaaaally believe the LDS leaders believe that a person receives exaltation as a result of their own righteousness INSTEAD of the atonement of Jesus Christ?
And no, if a person does not follow Christ (i.e. Keep the commandments) they cannot be exalted.
Olsen, once again you obfuscate the issue by inferring I said something I never said. You know perfectly well I never said instead. So do you agree with Beck that your exaltation is by grace ALONE? Your last post seems to indicate otherwise.
I should clarify that Beck never used the word exaltation, but given the fact that he was speaking to a predominantly “Gentile” audience, and assuming he was not trying to play fast and loose with words, he was implying that we get the best God has for us by grace alone.
OJ said
You also claim we ignore what you guys believe, but I have used scripture and this verse many, many times and it is LDS who ignore this verse.
Jesus said, Not Bill, or Falcon, or even me, But Jesus said, The ONLY WORK WE MUST DO, IS BELIEVE IN HIM.
So Mormons will become gods based on grace alone. Well that’s a news flash. They don’t have to merit it or earn it. Deity is bestowed on them regardless of their works. WOW, what a deal. Or could it be that Christ’s death and the shedding of His blood now makes it possible for Mormon males to achieve deity status based on what they do?
This is a fairly simple question.
For OJ:
Please list for me what has to be done in order for you to become a god?
Secondly, how will you know when you’ve done enough to become a god?
And OJ, based on your condescending and mocking attitude, I don’t think you’re god material!
Bill,
You quotation from Beck above reads:
“You cannot earn your way into heaven. You can’t! There is no deed, no random act of kindness, no amount of money to spread around to others that earns you a trip to heaven. It can’t happen. It’s earned by God’s grace alone, by believing that Jesus died on the cross for you. This is what Christians believe.”
Are you not suggesting that this is contrary to LDS belief?
I believe that is exactly what you are arguing. Tell me I am wrong.
I would only qualify the word “believe” in the quotation- and define it just as I think it should be defined in the New Testament- and that is implying not only intellectual acknowledgement, but committed following.
What Beck is saying is correct- nothing we do earns our way into heaven- it is necessary, but does not “earn” our way there.
The emphasis on “instead” was mine. I had no intention of suggesting you used that word. But you do get my point, don’t you? The common implication from EVs is that we believe our works take the place of the atoning blood of Christ. And that is completely false.
I know EVs hate the concept, but it is worth articulating. Our works only qualify us for God’s grace. They, in and of themselves, don’t earn or create anything.
You will likely say that if grace must be qualified, it is not grace. Well, the same could be said of the concept of grace being extended to only those who believe- they are having to do something to qualify for that grace- it is not extended to everybody in the same way.
I admit some sloppiness in word usage by LDS. But the underlying concept I am conveying is LDS doctrine. Instead of saying we “earn exaltation,” it would be better if I said “we qualify for God’s grace”…… Can you see that?
Olsen: What Beck is saying is correct- nothing we do earns our way into heaven- it is necessary, but does not “earn” our way there.
Sorry, friend, but that is simply nonsense. To earn something is to acquire it through merit or service. The quotations I provided easily fit that definition. The length you go to protect the myth is astounding. It’s like saying a player didn’t earn the trophy because he was given grace to play the game. Instead of lecturing me you should take it up guys like Monson who say the celestial must be earned. I’d venture to say he has more priesthood authority than you will ever have. Am I correct?
It isn’t nonsense, but requires a little thought and interest. And that is likely where the EV critic falls short.
If a wealthy man bestows a massive inheritence upon a son or daughter (or grandchild) who among all descendents is most honest, trustworthy, and humble, does that mean that the person receiving the inheritence “earned” it? Did they do anything to create that wealth? Absolutely not.
It is no stretch to believe that grace and works functions this way. In fact, that is what the New Testament compares our reward from God to-an “inheritence.”
I know it doesn’t jive with the basis of your career and “ministry”, but this concept and doctrine is very sound, biblical, and makes a whole lot of sense. But again, it requires a little more than a knee-jerk response.
I’ve had enough patience with your snarky comments, Olsen. One more time and you’re gone. Stick to the issue and away from innuendo.
You say “earned” is a sloppy way to explain it yet your alternative word “qualify” also implies action on the individuals part in order to acquire something. Your leaders understand that. That being the case then I most certainly used the quotes properly.
If, as you stated, works “qualify” you for grace, how many works must you do to get it? Also, what does the grace you “qualified” for actually do for you when you eventually get it?
A grace-assisted meritocracy is still a meritocracy. Or as Paul puts it, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:6)
To quote mrm.org/salvation
Olsen, here’s a test for you: Do you agree with John Widtsoe’s “Facing the Judgment”? Your willingness or unwillingness to renounce what he wrote will go a long way in reflecting your own position on grace and merit.
Thanks,
Aaron
OJ,
I am authorized to say that what Glenn Beck is expressing is not Mormon doctrine. You can never deny the fact that I once lived and breathed as you–a TBM. You can never say that I don’t know what I’m talking about. The thing that gets under your skin is that I know how you think with regard to theology. I was taught the same things you were taught, and argued with the same weak arguments with which you argue. The difference between us is that I have responded to the Holy Spirit in my life, where you continue to follow after the false spirits and false gods of Mormonism.
Praying for you…
Why is it when I read what the Apostles who
Jesus taught, said about salvation, I “get it”.
Yet when Mormon apologists like Olsen jim try to
explain how we can receive salvation,it sounds
so befuddled? I have to join Jackg in praying
for O.J.
One quick note. Olsen said,
” I never believed I could save myself.I have
never known another Mormon who believed they
could save themself.”
LDS Apostle John Widtsoe said,
” Complete salvation,which is full and eternal
life, results from man’s full endeavor to con-
form to the laws of life, the gospel of the
Lord Jesus Christ. That is why we often say
that MEN SAVE THEMSELVES with the aid of the
Lord.”
[ cited in Mormon Claims Answered, p.100 ]
Oh well. I’ll just stand on Eph 2:8-9; Gal.2:16
Phil 3:9; Heb.7:25, Thank you Jesus !
Good job Bill.
OJ,
I could say the same thing about Mormons and their understanding of salvation by grace through faith. The Book of Concord, which is the standard of faith and practice for Confessional Lutherans states-
1) Believers are saved by grace through faith ALONE – meaning, through Christ’s work for us on the cross we will go to be with God the Father and worship Him eternally.
2) No one is saved without good works. Good works save no one. If you are a believer, good works will be. The thief on the cross? He testified to Christ.
While I am not a Lutheran, I think this clearly states precisely the truth. In Scriptures it is clear over and over that faith comes before works, and while no one is saved without good works, good works have NOTHING to do with salvation.
Like I said OJ, I use scripture and what Jesus said, and you ignore it. Sadly Mormons do tend to ignore what scripture teaches. Rick b
Wow, Bill. OJ banned for a week? Was that really necessary? The same happened to me earlier in the year, when I suggested there was ignorance, because our doctrines were misrepresented. Nonetheless, OJ, well done with your comments.
This conversation is quite silly. Let me explain.
Clearly, you EVs, Evangelical Christians (or whatever you call yourselves) admit that not every single person will be saved, am I correct? Clearly, you believe there is a hell prepared for those who do not believe in Jesus, right?
So what sets apart those people that attain salvation and those that don’t?
Does the recipient of salvation do anything different than the one who is not saved?
Yes, of course, because it would be silly to say every man is saved or that a portion of men are saved or not saved regardless of what they do – predestination is utterly false.
Then, how does one receive salvation? You will say that man must have faith in Christ, or he cannot be saved. Okay. Attaining FAITH is a choice. If it were not a choice, then man could have no control over his own salvation. This means that those people who choose to not have faith in Christ cannot be saved. Call it what you want, but this choice is an action, meaning you must actually do something, make a choice – choose to have faith in Christ. Without choosing to have faith in Christ, you cannot receive the grace of Christ. Now whatever you call this exchange, whether it’s “earning” it, “meriting” it, “qualifying,” or whatever, for the grace of Christ – one thing is clear in your doctrine – you do not receive the grace of Christ without doing something, or choosing to have faith in Christ. Clearly and logically, in this sense, this grace is NOT a free gift, because you had DO SOMETHING to receive it. If it were a free gift, then everyone would receive it and every soul would be receive salvation…
(cont’d) The very fact that some people receive salvation and others don’t – the very thing that distinguishes one who is saved and one who is not – is having faith, which is a choice. You may parse words and disagree with this wording, but in your doctrine, one QUALIFIES for salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, because one cannot receive salvation without faith. Now it might be better to say, one qualifies for GRACE, which grants you salvation, which really is the truth of the matter. Okay, I hope that is clear.
Now, this is where Mormons and the rest of you differ. Mormons believe you must do more than just have faith. We believe the path to salvation is quite simple: faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and baptism by water, and of the Spirit. That’s it. Now, one can lose their faith after these principles and ordinances because of disobedience to eternal law, but these 4 things is what man must do, in the doctrine of Mormonism, to qualify for the GRACE from Christ which can help us to receive salvation, or entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.
Mormons have full faith and trust in the principle of grace. No Mormon believes he can live in the presence of God without grace. All come short of the glory of God, which is why we need grace. But clearly, one must CHOOSE to do something to receive that grace, and while you EVs say it’s FAITH alone, we say it’s faith, repentance, and what the Savior taught:
Except means there are exceptions, meaning a man must do certain things, or he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I hope I made sense of this all. God bless.
(You probably know this already, but i thought i would share it anyway to maybe help everyone better adress the mormon perspective on the subject)
Christ paid for our sins and because of that we are now indebted to Him. That means that now we have to pay Christ back but instead of requiring of us the full price, which obviously wouldn´t make sense, He requires of us some sort of compensation or payment for what He did, and that compensation is that we obey His commandments.
The root of the problem is that for mormons, Christ Himself requires works from them, in order to find grace(favour) in His eyes for them to be allowed to partake of the gift of exaltation. That´s how they can say they don´t earn their salvation, or even exaltation – all they´re doing is what they say Christ Himself required of them after He already paid the full price before justice. It could be considered a new law, or a messianic law, i guess…
Obviously that still contradicts the definition of grace as being a free gift of God – no question about it – but that´s how i learned it growing up in the Church, and that would be the reason why i would be upset with Christians in the past, before being born again, for saying that mormons earn their salvation…
I hope that helps
iamse7en,
You make a very good point, and you´re right, the grace of God does require that one believes in Christ.
That´s not a work as you suggested though – that´s spiritual rebirth, to put aside your old self and accept Christ. It is in fact to abandon the works of death(Romans 7:6)
In Other words, it is to allow Jesus to take over your life. He does it all!
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”.(Romans 10:9-10)
To confess Christ is to acknowledge that His work was finished on the cross and that He already paid for my sins, and that i don´t have to work for it, because He´s done the work only He could it. That belief brings fruits which are what mormons mistake for the works that they have to do to deserve salvation…
That´s when mormonism is the farthest away from Christianity – because it doesn´t believe that the work of Christ was finished on the cross. It teaches that besides the cross you have to make all those different covenants in the temple only to be allowed to enter in the race for exaltation – that´s all Christ is in mormonism, a pass, a bridge, it´s your ticket to be allowed to enter the race to exaltation – and even after all that you might still never get there…
That scripture says it all (thanks Rick B)
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
pr_c wrote,
What qualifies something as a work? Call it what you want, but spiritual rebirth through Christ is still a choice – something you must choose to do in order to be saved. We put faith, repentance, and baptism by water/spirit in the same category: they are things you must choose to do in order to receive the grace of Christ.
Then you say,
You don’t have to work for it? But you had to confess and have faith in Christ. That may have been a simple task for you, but it’s still something you chose to do, that if you had NOT done, you COULD not have been saved! That’s our whole point. If Jesus already paid for your sins, and he did all the work, then why do you have to have faith in Him and confess His name? Your answer would be the same as our answer to your question of why we say we have to repent of our sins and be baptized. You don’t have to call having faith and confessing his name “work” or “a work,” but the fact still remains, it was something you had to DO, an action, a choice, something that every man must DO if he wants salvation. And we Mormons just add a few things on top of faith, things that the Bible says we must do to enter the kingdom of God.
I think when Mormons try and tell us that they don't have to "earn" salvation, they need to qualify very specifically what they're claiming. Are they talking about the concept of Mormon universal salvation which is offered to everyone who ever lived or are they talking about the godmaker program whereby the Mormon male follows a pathway of works to become a god. Mormons have a reputation for being evasive and downright dishonest when it comes to both their history and their doctrine but I also think that Mormonism's lack of a systematic theology allows for Mormons to fill-up topics such as grace and works with their own meaning. Mormons also give us "a difference without a distinction" when they things like "we don't earn our salvation but we have to qualify for God's grace." When we point out the lack of logic in such statements then they'll say we aren't spiritual or smart enough to understand the concept. The fact of the matter is, what we have with Mormons is typical "cult speak". This is the secret in talk that cults use to hide the true meaning of what they are saying and to muddy the waters.
7,
Yes and that’s why Mormonism is not Christianity. Mormons have to choose. As future gods, Mormons are, in their minds, on a self-determined path. In Christianity God chooses us in Christ Jesus, we don’t choose Him. Ephesians 1:3-6 pretty much explains it all. Faith is not a work. Faith is faith. God even prepares the works that we do as a result of our faith in Him; Ephesians 2:10.
I’m fine with whatever Mormons want to believe about how they are going to become gods, but the fact of the matter is that Mormons have to do something to accomplish that. Can a Mormon become a god by faith alone? Of course not. Something must be done in order to achieve deification and to join the pantheon of gods. Becoming a god is not granted to a Mormon on the basis of faith alone. The Mormon god does not choose which Mormon males will become gods. The Mormon male decides (if he will choose to do the things necessary to become a god.) If not, then why do Mormons say “after all we can do.” DO means DO………DO SOMETHING…..works must be done. Mormon males are knocking themselves out doing all they can do to become worthy to become a god. Can a Mormon male become a god without a temple recommend and without going to the temple to participate in the rituals? Can a Mormon male become a god if he violates any aspect of the word of wisdom code; for example drinking coffee? Can a Mormon male become a god if he refuses “callings” by the Mormon Bishop? Of course not. The Mormon male must “do” in order to become a god. This is a works program, this deification process.
Is Mormonism classic orthodox Christianity? Of course not. So why do Mormons sputter away trying to make their religion sound like Christianity? Who cares? Simply tell the truth. The truth is that a Mormon cannot become a god unless certain things are done by him.
A Christian doesn’t do anything in order to receive eternal life. Whatever we do is a result of a changed life based on what God did for us through Christ Jesus. At the Bema judgment seat of Christ (where believers are judged), our works are placed on an alter and they are tried by fire. Any work that is wood, hay or stubble is consumed in the fire. The works that are like precious metal, survive. If we are wearing crowns with jewels in them representing our works, we take them (the crowns) off and toss them at the feet of Jesus.
Christianity is about Jesus and giving Him all honor, praise, glory and adoration. Our works are to honor Him. In the Mormon man-to-god program, it’s all about “me” and what I did, I’m doing and will do to bring honor and glory to myself and my family by becoming a god.
I’m sure Glenn Beck is aware of the fact that he can’t become a god without paying the LDS planetary franchise fee. What’s that you ask? Well it’s the 10% tithe that Mormons are required to pay in order to be in good standing to qualify to get the all important temple recommend. Can a Mormon male who wants to become a god simply say, “Nah I’m going to skip paying my tithe because my becoming a god is based on what Jesus did for me on the cross.” Yea, that’s close!
Oh I forgot, all of these things like paying a tithe are what must be done in order to “qualify” someone for entry into the god program. They really aren’t works. This all sounds like a good plot for the TV series “Lie To Me”.
So grace in Mormonism means that a person doesn’t have to be baptized, they don’t have to pay a tithe, they don’t have to do temple rituals, they can refuse callings if they want to, don’t have to hold the priesthood, don’t have to spend Sunday mornings in one of those exciting Mormon church services and may knock back a cup of coffee or an occasional brewske, no problem.
Becoming a god is not merit based, right? It is granted to a Mormon male based on the fact that …………..well that he’s a Mormon male.
If becoming Mormon god is truly a faith based initiative, then there is some definite confusion here because my understanding is that there’s a whole lot of doing in Mormonism.
@Iamse7en, I merely gave Olsen a taste of “Mormon grace.” As he himself said, “Our works only qualify us for God’s grace.” Well, in a more temporal setting he’s been told time and time again what the rules are here and he continues to flaunt them. His “works” didn’t meet our standard, and accordingly, he didn’t “qualify” for the the grace that allows him to remain.
Hay do I have a deal for you. I've got a brand new car and you can have it for free. Now in order for you to have this free car it requires that you pay me 10% of your income for life. You also have to come and work for me for no pay whenever I ask you. You also have to abide by a certain life style. So it's your free car, except that you're never going to know if you actually have it despite doing all these things that are required of you to have it. Make sense? I didn't think so and neither does Mormonism.
While I see many Mormon commenters explaining that what Bill and others have written is not what Mormonism truely teaches or what Mormons really believe, they are not actually making arbitrary claims; rather, they are directly quoting numerous Mormon sources, from which we can at the very least triangulate some pretty definite conclusions.
Let's be honest: If it was a Mormon source stating the very things that Bill and others have claimed are taught by Mormons — if it was, in fact, a Mormon leader — no one would bat an eye.
So if they are so wrong in their conclusions, where is the documentation? Where are the leaders coming out and saying so? Why has a huge body of Mormon literature and documentation been written in support of certain claims? If it is so CLEARLY contrary to their conclusions — why so little evidence?
So this is the comment that got him banned for the week. 🙂 A little touchy are we?
7,
I really love to discuss this and think about the nature of faith. Reading scripture and theology it has become clear to me that faith is a gift of God. Just as grace is a gift, our faith in God comes from Him! I recently was reading a book by Daniel Preus which described the nature of faith by relating how his baby son related to 2 of his other children. The baby was playing great with the 9 year cooing and having a great time, then he walked off and up came his 3 year old to play with the baby. Instantly he began to whine. Why? Well, the 9 year old was mature enough to know how to treat an infant with gentleness and care, while his 3 year old had trouble grasping that she should not drag her brother around by the arm and other less than gentle things. In other words, his baby son did not trust the 3 year old based on past experience. Likewise, as we read Scripture and here Christ crucified for our sins, God works in our hearts to learn to trust Him, to have faith. it is not something we conjure up, it is not something we grasp – it is a gift of God given through the hearing of the gospel preached and understanding that Jesus Christ has done all for our salvation, there is nothing we need do, indeed, nothing we can do to merit salvation. Romans 10:17 – Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ. We hear the Word preached and God brings us to trust in Him.
"I live my life in a way where I can be worthy of miracles." — Glenn Beck (I have Fox News on right now, and these words literally just came out of his mouth.)
So if you murder someone's child, in cold blood, just because you could…what could you do to qualify for thier gracious forgiveness? What could you do to soften the pain that they feel knowing their child will never come back? Could you mutilate yourself? Could you dedicate your life to finding missing children? Could you voluntarily take a beating from a group of people who had also lost their children to murder? What 'work' could you do to turn your life around that would in any way shape or form make up for what you did? Would there ever come a day after turning your life around where you could say 'I know I killed thier child but look at all I've done good they are now obligated to show me some forgiveness.' Is forgiveness ever earned?
wrench,
There's a verse in the Bible that says something about "rain falling on the just and unjust alike". I guess that would preclude any worthiness on the part of man. I don't know if Beck is talking about the normal, regular idea of what "goes around comes around" or if he's referring to God's supernatural miraculous intervention in our lives. If it's the former, it makes sense. You know, "cast your bread upon the water and it will return to you after many days". And isn't it the Hindu's that talk about "karma".
Beck gives off the devout and sincere Mormon vibe which can mask the real face of the religion. Andy Watson sent me an e mail this morning about an event the Mormons are holding up at Henderson, NV and the line on the flyer that caught Andy's eye was "You can come hear see/what we believe. It's the same as you. The only difference is, we don't worship the cross. First of all Mormons don't believe the "same as you" and secondly, I wasn't aware that Christians worship the cross. So in this one statement we see the deception and ignorance that is Mormonism.
So when Beck does his rap on grace, he's either totally ignorant of what Mormonism is all about or he has bought into the Mormon tactic of spreading deceit and confusion. Do these people really sincerely think that they believe the same as Christians? If so, what's the point of Mormonism. Andy sat in on a Mormon inquiry class one time and he says to the elderly gentleman leading the class, "I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and on the basis of my faith in Him I have secured eternal life. What can Mormonism do for me?" The old guy says, "nothing". I think that pretty much sums up Mormonism, there's nothing there that can do anything for anyone when it comes to their eternal destiny.
iamse7en – wrote "What qualifies something as a work? "
I've seen that argument raised on numerous occasions, and it is nothing more than the infamous "depends upon what the meaning of 'is' is" defense. The scripture is very clear as to what a work is and isn't – any honest and open reading of Paul's writings makes that very evident. Choice being a response is not equivalent to the "works" of mormonism – temple ordinances, WoW, tithing, etc – and mormon leaders make that same point – works have to be accomplished FIRST before grace can ever kick in.
Once again, the logical fallacies of Jim Olsen.
To use Falcon's later analogy, "I'm giving you this car for free. You don't need to pay me for it-payment is necessary, but not required to obtain the car." if doing things is necessary to obtain salvation then you cannot obtain salvation without doing the necessary things. That destroys the idea of grace. I suggest that anyone wanting to refute that works are not necessary to obtain the gift of salvation thoroughly read for comprehension Romans 4 through 11. The bible clearly teaches that complete salvation is based upon complete forgiveness of sins through the redemption of the lost by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If Jesus paid for your sins on the cross then you have salvation. The question is, "Did Jesus pay for your</i? sins on the cross?" Jesus did not pay for everyone's sins. If He did, then everyone would be saved. But we know that the bible teaches that many will be lost and that only those that are born from above (John 3:3) will see the Kingdom of God. How does one become a child of God? It is not by being born of a certain race, or because of their desire or will, but because of God working in them (John 1:13). Jesus himself confirms this in John 3:5-8, John 5:21, 6:37-47. In Matthew 11 Jesus condemns the people in Chorazin and Bethsaida for not repenting, despite the miracles that had been done proving his identity. In Matthew 11:25-27 he explains why they did not believe. It was because it was God's will that they not believe (verse 26), and Jesus is equal with God in that no one can know God unless He chooses to reveal Him to them. The sovereignty of God in salvation is reprehensible to fallen man. Fallen man must assert his sovereignty over salvation by his own will and his own merits. What is taught about works in Romans 4? This is why works are evidence of our salvation and not required for salvation (Ephesians 2:7-10, James 2:14-26). Either Jesus died for your sins and sovereignly called you (Romans 8:28-30), justified you, and gave you the hope of future glorification, or Jesus died for everyone, but did not have the power to justify without their consent and continued faith/works. Furthermore, according to this doctrine there are those for whom Jesus died, and is making intercession, that will not receive salvation. Is this truly the Jesus of 1 John 2:1 (we can have a discussion of who the "whole world" is in verse 2) and Hebrews 7:25? What about the interceding work of the Holy Spirit in Romans 8:26? Either true salvation is entirely and completely a work of God, or God does not have the power to actually save men, but only to make them "saveable". Unfortunately, most of modern Evangelicalism has to stand with the Mormons and Romans on this issue denying God the power to actually save man without man's sovereign permission. If that's true, then you stand with Pelagius asking, "If man does not have free will, then how can God hold him accountable for what he is not able to do?" That was answered about 400 years prior by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:19-24.
But the bible teaches that we were not more worthy than the rest. And this is where your argument falls apart. You say that it is by grace, but then you say that grace is bestowed upon you because you have righteous works! Haven't you ever read the bible? Paul spends all of Romans 1-3 condemning all men before God. Nobody is worthy of salvation. All are condemned because of their lawlessness. Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul immediately says in the next verse (Romans 3:24) that we are justified (Grk. dikaioumenoi, "declared righteous") freely by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. That declaration of righteousness is not fleeting, but to those that are truly saved it is a complete and everlasting declaration of righteousness. In Romans 4 Paul clearly explains that righteous works don't earn us salvation. This so despicable to Mormons that Joseph Smith changed Romans 4:5 to say, "but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." When the KJV says specifically, "but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." There is no basis for changing the translation other than Joseph Smith's complete and total disdain for the doctrines of grace. Joseph Smith changed God's word to conform it to his own beliefs. Paul continues in Romans 5:8 by saying that "God showed His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." God doesn't bestow grace on people who have shown themselves to be righteous. That destroys the concept of grace which can be defined as, "God's undeserved merit at Christ's expense." Grace is not earned. Grace is bestowed as a gift upon undeserving sinners. Likewise, the ability to have faith in Christ is also a gift of the rebirth and regeneration of a particular fallen person. It is bestowed specifically, not generally.
Apart from the grace of God and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit no man will have faith in Christ. We must all make a choice to have faith in Jesus, but first we must see ourselves for who we are before God: wretched sinners deserving of condemnation. We must then turn from our sins and toward God for forgiveness by confessing our sins (repentance and confession). We then place our faith and trust in the One who died for our sins, specifically, Jesus Christ. Apart from the work of the Holy Spirit no man will see himself for who he is, and no man will cry out to God for forgiveness. That is why faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:7-9). Jesus did great miracles and spoke things that we never heard, yet most did not believe. Do you honestly believe that apart from God's calling that you will be any different from those in Chorazin and Bethsaida in Matthew 11? Jesus said that their unbelief was according to God's will in Mathew 11:26. He goes on to say that it is only according to his will that God is revealed. The call to those who are weary and burden is to those who understand that they are weary and burdened. The unsaved world does not care, or like Mormons, believe that their righteousness buys them a shot at God's grace to do the "less burdensome" works of Jesus. There are many Christians who believe that they made a "choice" for Jesus, and that is fine, because they did. But I say that they only made a choice for Jesus because he chose them first (Romans 8:29-31, Ephesians 1). Predestination is not a lie as you asserted earlier. It is specifically taught.
Do you get salvation without first having faith and confessing His name? Does the power of grace unto salvation come BEFORE you have faith and confess His name? Then we must ALL be saved! Wonderful! No hell is needed then.
That's fine – I would agree. Our very existence as humans, our very life, is a gift from God. But not every receives this gift of faith. What is different about those that receive the gift and those who don't? What is different about those who are saved and those who aren't? The recipient of salvation CHOOSES to receive the gift of faith, or makes certain changes in his heart and mind in order to receive this gift of salvation.
Not everyone who hears the word of God believes and develops faith – what sets the person who believes and the person who doesn't? Is it God's choice, or the individual's choice?
Clearly, it's the individual's choice, and this is my whole point: someone, through their own choices and action, must choose to believe the word of God and develop faith. If it's not up to the individual's choice and action, then men are not accountable for rejecting the word of God, and there could be no hell (and no heaven for that matter).
You didn't choose to allow God into your life? Who did then? Did God choose you? If so, why did he choose you and not someone else? You didn't choose to accept Christ and have faith in him? If you did not choose Christ (or rather accept Christ's choosing of you, if you'd prefer to say it that way), then God is unfair for choosing some people not others based on no choice of their own. Is He a respecter of persons? It is eternal law that man is accountable for his own actions and that salvation is a choice, otherwise God is unfair.
Sorry, still playing the 'is' game. The power of grace is present before I confess and accept Jesus, but it becomes active in my life only after. We know that the bom teaches one must be perfectly blameless before this grace kicks in (ALMA 5:27-31), that you must be perfect and free of all ungodliness before His grace is sufficient for you (MORONI 10:32). We know that mormons are commanded to keep the "commandments continually" or you cannot go to heaven (DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15).
See, your insistence on 'works' before grace is denied by Paul – ROMANS 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Playing the 'is' game may work to handle the cognitive dissonance associated with mormon doctrine, but it fails the reality test of scripture. Repentance is not a work, nor is it equivalent to mormon works.
You need to get a proper understanding of "election" and God's "foreknowledge". You also need to develop a more precise system of exegesis when it comes to Biblical interpretation. Your first error in the scripture quoted above is you pull it out of the Bible and try to make it stand alone to create a doctrine.
So let's have a go at this.
1.The Greek phrase "work out" means the expression, manifestation, or actualization of something one already possesses.
2. The Phillipians are to bring salvation to its conclusion.
3. They are to display the fruit of the reality of their salvation, the reality of Christ in them as a result of the free gift of salvation that God has provided them through faith.
Now Mormonism is a religion based on the idea that the Mormon chooses the Mormon god and then does work to secure the position of personal deity. That's not Christianity so our gripe with Mormons is that they obscure, as best they can, the Mormon gospel trying to make it sound like conventional, classical, orthodox Christianity.
So when you make your points, you are making them in terms of Mormonism not in terms of Christianity. I find it interesting that on the one hand Mormons claim not to be doing works to become gods and than on the other hand want to apply a scripture about "work out" to support the opposite position of what they say about their quest to become gods.
I think the misunderstanding between Mormons and Christians is the idea of "salvation." The Mormon will tell you, "Yes, of course, we're all SAVED by grace alone! What's the problem?" The problem is the difference between SALVATION and the Mormon idea of exaltation. See, Christians don't have a different idea of salvation or exaltation. When you die, you go to Heaven and live and worship and love in God's eternal and abiding rest forever and ever, or you go to Hell where you're eternally separated from God. For the Mormon, you die and go to a level of Heaven based on your works. You don't get to be with God because God is always going to be infinitely above you in His level of progression. The best you can possibly hope for is that your works, your MERIT, earn you a highest Heaven where you can become your own god.
You missed the point of the example of how faith, trust is formed in our hearts by God. Did the 3 year old choose to trust her brother and not her sister? No, this was based on her knowledge and experience. Likewise, no one comes to the Father unless Jesus draws him, in other words brings them to faith. It is all God, from beginning to end – we contibute nothing to our salvation. God uses his Word to speak to us and bring us to trust in Christ crucified for our sins. God uses the Lord’s Supper to give us faith and help us understand Christ’s sacrifice was for MY sins as I individually eat the bread and drink the wine. God gives us faith. Jesus has done all to save us. We contribute nothing.