In Acts 17:28, Paul quotes from pagan poetry to make a point that ultimately contradicts pagan theology. He makes a point of connection useful for a larger point of contention. One among other things we can observe from his sermon is that Christians can wisely use non-Christian literature in our endeavor to communicate Christian truth.
D&C 20:37
The next time baptism comes up in a discussion with a Mormon, remember that even unique LDS scripture teaches that remission of sins is required as a prerequisite to baptism. D&C 20:37 reads:
“All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.”
This contradicts the common Mormon assumption (which the LDS institution has condoned, fostered and perpetuated) that the ordinance of baptism itself (or perhaps, more specifically, afterward at the giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands), with the faith of the participant and proper priesthood of the officiator, brings immediate remission of sins. Mark D. Woodbury, director of the Reno Nevada Institute of Religion, partly reflects the common Mormon view that I have encountered over the past decade:
The good news is that there is repentance. Repentance is a great gift from God; indeed, the scriptures teach us that Christ “hath risen again from the dead, that he might bring all men unto him, on conditions of repentance. And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth!” (D&C 18:12–13). But it is only through our entering into a covenant with God through baptism that repentance becomes truly effective. Many times in scripture the prophets and the Savior Himself use the phrase “baptized unto repentance. (See Matthew 3:11; Mosiah 26:22; Alma 5:62; 6:2; 7:14; 8:10; 9:27; 48:19; 49:30; Helaman 3:24; 5:17; 5:19; 3 Nephi 1:23; 7:24, 26; Moroni 8:11; D&C 35:5.) Alma, for example, taught, “Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness” (Alma 7:14).
Alma makes two points clear, the first being that forgiveness of sins does not come simply through repentance alone but that baptism is also necessary. Second, he shows that it is not the waters of baptism that cleanse us but rather the Lamb of God. Nephi clarifies that the remission of sins comes “by fire and by the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 31:17). Thus, we are cleansed from our sins only when the Holy Ghost places the stamp of approval upon us.
President Brigham Young taught: “Has water, in itself, any virtue to wash away sin? Certainly not; but the Lord says, ‘If the sinner will repent of his sins, and go down into the waters of baptism, and there be buried in the likeness of being put into the earth and buried, and again be delivered from the water, in the likeness of being born—if in the sincerity of his heart he will do this, his sins shall be washed away.’ Will the water of itself wash them away? No; but keeping the commandments [p.72] of God will cleanse away the stain of sin.” (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses (Liverpool: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot, 1854–86), 2:4.)
Our sins, therefore, are remitted by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost following our repentance and baptism by water. Continued repentance is then available only to those who have entered into a covenant with the Lord through the Aaronic Priesthood ordinance of baptism. Since the fruits of repentance (forgiveness and cleansing) are available only through the administration of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Aaronic Priesthood “holds the keys of . . . the gospel of repentance” (D&C 13:1; see also Joseph Smith—History 1:69).[1]
Woodbury essentially argues that it is at laying on of hands (shortly after baptism) that one is given remission of sins. This much is clear: for him, baptism is absolutely requisite for remission of sins. Contrary to D&C 20:37, remission of sins is not seen by him as prerequisite to baptism.
The Ellipsis in Gospel Principles
Chapter 20 of the 2009 Gospel Principles manual reads, “When we place our faith in Jesus Christ, repent, and are baptized, our sins are forgiven through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.” Admittedly this can be parsed by some to be compatible with the neo-orthodox position, but culturally this seems to effectively perpetuate the view that baptism, by faith and repentance, constitutes the very act of receiving remission of sins. For this reason it is notable that in the chapter’s subsequent use of D&C 20:37 an important ellipsis omits the part of the passage which indicates that remission of sins is a prerequisite to baptism:
“All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized … that … have truly repented of all their sins … shall be received by baptism into his church” (D&C 20:37).
While arguably excised the sake of brevity, it also seems to conveniently avoid a seeming contradiction within the manual’s chapter.
Acts 2:38
In the Bible we hear of the call to “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). With more specific apostolic teaching, we learn that justification, forgiveness, and adoption are by faith, not by works (Romans 4:4-8, Ephesians 2:8-10). I consider this an issue of chronological intimacy. For the earliest believers the event of initial faith and the event of baptism were not normally separated by a significant probationary time of vetting and preparation, but rather were experienced as one basic event. The gospel was preached, people believed and received the gift of the Spirit, were justified and forgiven, and were baptized all normally in the same memorable happening. From certain events and sermons in Acts, one could reasonably infer that baptism itself is an act of receiving forgiveness. But understood in the light of the whole of Acts, as well as other New Testament letters, we learn from the Bible that baptism is a public identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It publicly solidifies by declaration that we have already repented and received forgiveness of sins.
3 Nephi 7:25
The question of the relationship between forgiveness and baptism was not foreign to the many Christian restorationist groups of Joseph Smith’s day. In at least one passage The Book of Mormon takes a stand on this issue that today seems far more compatible with evangelicalism than modern Mormonism:
“Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins.” (3 Nephi 7:25)
In modern Christian culture we tend to chronologically separate faith and baptism by a process of doctrinal introduction and pastoral interview. D&C 20:37 reflects this practice of baptismal delay that Mormons partly inherited from their Puritan American ancestors (which I’m told the early Christian church adopted as well). Perhaps 3 Nephi 7:25 reflects early Mormonism’s more Protestant theology of forgiveness and baptism as well. Both should cause Mormons to pause before assuming the Mormonism of the early 1830’s is compatible with the mainstream Mormonism of the 21st century.
Grace and peace!
[1] Mark D. Woodbury, “The Preparatory Priesthood,” in Religious Educator 4, no. 2 (2003): 69–75. Link.
One has to shake their head in wonder – mormon doctrine of baptism is just as conflicted as many of their other doctrines. Which scripture to follow depends upon the desire of the day. The 'God' of mormonism must be a very confused being.
That´s why they have a living prophet…so that they don´t have to deal with all of that – just follow what he says meaning what the church official practices are at the moment. When the prophet speaks the thinking has been done.
Aaron, great post! It was quite eye-opening to me since i´ve read those passages before but never saw that, i didn´t have a clue that was there at all…
I was taught that to be baptized you had to repent of your sins and be willing to commit to a new life – but that was not a process in which you had to go through some trial time unless you had some addiction you were getting rid of. You simply just had to ask God for forgiveness in prayer and talk to the bishop in case you committed more serious sins, and after all that is taken care of you get baptized to seal the deal and start a new life "keeping" God´s commandments. The act of Baptism was what provided the first half of the forgiveness of your sins, it was through that that your past sins were erased and you would start anew. The gift of the Holy Ghost sanctified you and completed the process, or as you cited, it was the stamp of approval without which the rest would become ineffective.
Interesting to think that the remission of sins would have to come before baptism, even though it makes a lot more sense since(in Mormonism) you´re committing yourself to a new life, showing you did leave your old life behind. I´ll have to think through that a little more carefully, but it´s definitely an important topic to study because mormons will always attest to their superiority by asking stuff like "what churches do baptism in the correct manner with the proper authority other than us", etc. That also blows away their claim to have made the Bible clearer on the subject…
Yes, the mindless drone syndrome. But don't they have a motto something like 'intelligence is the glory of God' or something simliar. If that is the case, then it is all hat and no cattle. Even a tiny bit of thinking would do worlds of good.
It seems no matter how many times I use scripture to point this out, LDS still ignore it. Jesus did not baptize
If Baptism MUST BE DONE, Then Jesus was setting a poor example. Also if Baptism must be done, why does the apostle say Jesus did NOT SEND ME to Baptize?
"This contradicts the common Mormon assumption (which the LDS institution has condoned, fostered and perpetuated)…"
I have been noticing more and more ex-Mormon websites out there. I think that what WAS working… that is, that the LDS leadership could sit back and take it easy, while the majority of Mormons merely went to church and heard each others feel-good stories, regurgitated doctrine from the manual, and basically gave it no more thought (yes, I'm generalizing), is just not the case anymore. People like their computers – like being able to access the info that they couldn't before, and they can do it quickly and privately.
The sad thing is, even though Mormon culture and Mormon doctrine are being discovered to be perpendicular, there is still the need to fit in, or just get out. How I wish that all the LDS who leave the church would run straight to Christ, run straight to the Bible, and search it out in earnest, looking for God and truth. But – while it cannot be said that Mormons do not find Jesus when they leave BECAUSE of the church, I believe a great many of them have been over-religioned in such a way that they don't want to know more about God. And then of course, they have the Mormon-given prejudice against the Bible…
And there's the 'must-be-perfect' aspect of Mormonism – which is completely contradictory to "the common Mormon assumption (which the LDS institution has condoned, fostered and perpetuated)" that I only have to be "as good as I can be." You can only get baptized, you can only go to the temple, you can only go to the Celestial Kingdom – if you're perfect. But, no, only as good as you can be. But really, perfect.
As a Mormon I battled with myself over the simplest ideas, things that should have been yes or no answers. And what was worse, I blamed myself for not being spiritual enough – I was the beginning and the end of the problem – and there was no solution but to become MORE MORMON.
Still, God can work miracles. 🙂
I had started attending a Community of Christ (former RLDS) church when I became a believer in Jesus Christ. When the time came for me to be baptized, I spent the whole night before the event studying D&C 17 (as it is numbered in the RLDS scriptures) and worrying myself silly.
How, I asked myself, could I know that I had repented of "all my sins"?
And since I had been a fulltime community volunteer both before and after my conversion to Christianity, how could I honestly agree that a person's works demonstrate their spiritual condition? I knew brave men and women who walked the mean streets serving others, many of whom were not believers.
And I knew that despite my own efforts — which were significant — I had never had a day of "breaking even" where my sins were concerned. I was heaping up even more condemnation day by day, especially when I came to believe, as Jesus taught, that our thoughts were equally as sinful as our actions. "All that I could do" was totally inadequate.
I refused to go down into the water on the next morning, even when the bishop tried to browbeat me into being baptized, though I eventually relented when members started showing up at my house unannounced to remonstrate with me. I wish that I hadn't given way, because as God's grace continued to work in my life, I knew that I had received a baptism based on false principles.
Years later, as a believer in the true gospel of Jesus Christ, I know that my questions were valid. My continued participation in my local RLDS/Community of Christ branch ended less than a year later when, as a priesthood candidate on the fast track because of my master's degree in comparative religion and significant experience in public speaking, I insisted on preaching the last half of John 6 exactly as written. The official interpretation for the day was that Jesus should not have said things to offend people, as offending people is one of the worst things that we can do. I was banished from the podium, and immediately censured and removed from my position as youth director.
One week later came the scandal in Independence where high-ranking youth pastors were accused of child abuse, including teaching children to bury the facts of their abuse in mason jars and plant a flower on top of them, so that they understood that the flowers would die if the every un-buried them. The practice of "burying our resentments" was, in fact, the official Sunday School teaching in RLDS/Community of Christ branches on the day that I was censured and forbidden to preach.
Community of Christ is the church that the Utah LDS church would become if it took a more "liberal" path while still keeping the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's other teachings. If possible, it focuses even more upon doing good works to build a relationship with God than does the Utah church. Poison fruit comes from a poison root. Whether it's the LDS, the FLDS, or the RLDS… Joseph Smith's teachings damage the lives of those who try to follow them.
That intelligence isn´t really intelligence – it´s Orwellian talk. When they talk about intelligence they are actually referring to "spiritual enlightenment" which means that only after Elohim became god that he could truly access higher knowledge kept from mankind. So a Mormon could get to the Celestial Kingdom and find out everything they learned about it wasn´t really true, it was just a test and that reality is actually something completely different.
That´s not only a confused god but a deceitful one as well.
Very good. It's always nice to have new folks with a different take and perception from their life experiences. I've examined the CoC some and listened a little bit to their head guy speaking at their conference and I find the group a little conflicted, to say the least. What you've written here certainly brings a depth of knowledge/information I didn't find on their website. Your poison root example was excellent.
I think that these aberrant sects just can't seem to get themselves to the cross and learn what Jesus' shed blood did for those who are willing to accept (His sacrifice) through faith for the remission of sins. But that is one of the key elements that make these groups not only heretical but in many cases, a whole different religion.
Jesus said that He came that we might have life and have it abundantly. Mormon sects, and others, don't really seem to want abundant living. They make everything so hard as if Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. There's this mistaken impression that we have to get ourselves all cleaned up before God will accept us. The blood of Christ covering us makes our scarlet sins as white as wool. When we come to Christ in faith we are born again by the Spirit of God to a new reality. We are a new creature in Christ.
We can't even get up to speed in a life time of trying to bridge the gap between what we are and what we should be. As we walk in the light, as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
That's why it's called Good News!
Chaplain Kathleen, it is very nice to meet you. Thank you for coming out here, and sharing part of your story. I hope you continue.
God bless!
Wonderful account you have shared with us, Kathleen. Thanks for your participation here. (The 6th chapter of John is just amazing.)
And thank you for your post, falcon. I was reminded of something when you said:
"There's this mistaken impression that we have to get ourselves all cleaned up before God will accept us."
I think you'll enjoy this thought from Martin Luther that relates closely to what you've said. It is from his commentary on Galatians 1:4a ("Who gave himself for our sins").
In his commentary, he describes what was a near universal sentiment in his day: "We must feel no sin before we may feel that Christ was given for our sins." Wow.
Here is some more of his commentary on this verse:
"Note especially the pronoun "our" and its significance. You will readily grant that Christ gave Himself for the sins of Peter, Paul, and others who were worthy of such grace. But feeling low, you find it hard to believe that Christ gave Himself for your sins. Our feelings shy at a personal application of the pronoun "our," and we refuse to have anything to do with God until we have made ourselves worthy by good deeds.
This attitude springs from a false conception of sin, the conception that sin is a small matter, easily taken care of by good works; that we must present ourselves unto God with a good conscience; that we must feel no sin before we may feel that Christ was given for our sins.
This attitude is universal and particularly developed in those who consider themselves better than others. …"
See Radical Grace, The Lutheran Difference, or Lutheran Difference, on YouTube, four videos. Here's the core values and teachings first one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ytICqUo_Xo
Also. See Mormon Research Ministry, Videos, Hand Sanitizer. Your hands must be clean before using the hand sanitizer. We must come to God clean, impossible. Also. Bible says we should come to him broken. http://mrm.tv/sharing-gods-unconditional-love-wit…
This is the best one. Listen to the end. 'You got an 'A'.' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11dgATRJLNQ&NR…
The students walked into class with fear knowing no one had ever gotten an 'A' in Hebrew class. The first day of class, the professor opened his grade book and showed them that they all had an 'A' next to their names. They were so thrilled with the 'A' that they learned Hebrew for the LOVE of learning. Sure some slid and did not learn, but who did they hurt? Themselves. . . . . (silence) You got an 'A'. (grace.)
Excellent, excellent, excellent. Almost makes me want to become Lutheran which would probably make my wife happy.
I gave up trying to be righteous a long time ago. (How's that for shock value?)
I know my condition is hopeless. I can't do it; become righteous.
A guy I really respect wrote this:
"For that which I am doing, I don't understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. …….For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. ……Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?"
Sinning comes natural to us. It is in our DNA. Repression, shame and legalism might be pretty effective in altering some people's behavior, but they won't change a person's heart; and herein lies the problem. In fact sects that practice this form of behavior modification, quite often have a high incidence of kinky ism.
I've found that the best way to combat my sin nature is by drawing closer to God through His Son Jesus Christ. Mormons are robbed of this personal relationship with Jesus because He is just an add on to Joseph Smith, the BoM, the living "prophet" and the Mormon church.
To a Christian, Jesus is the alpha and omega; the beginning and the end. There isn't anything but Jesus. He is God incarnate, the one who shed His blood for the remission of our sins not because we deserve it, but because we don't deserve it. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. I'm one of the ungodly. Now by modern standards I suppose my overall behavior is pretty good but I don't fool myself into thinking that my behavior has anything to do with my salvation. Only Jesus can rectify my sin nature and behavior through His sacrifice. Anyone who thinks that his/her behavior will add one thing to what Christ did is a prideful fool.
We may earn a crown with jewels in them but at the end of time we'll take those crowns off and throw them at the feet of Jesus.
The problem with Mormons not understanding forgiveness gets to the point that they don't understand the heart of God. The god that Mormons acknowledge as god is not "God". He's just a man who's a little better than they are. This isn't the magnificent, omnipotent God who is revealed in the Bible. God's Word gives us a very straight forward message that Mormons, with all of their religiosity, can't grasp. That message is that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Perishing is a very real thing but so is God's love, mercy, benevolence, kindness and forgiveness to those who place their faith in Jesus.
Now there are Mormons who will claim that they do this but the problem is that not knowing who God is leads them to not know who His Son is. This is not a small matter; just a minor detail. The one whom Mormons call Jesus is not the qualified Savior of the Bible. The Mormon Jesus isn't God incarnate but the literal offspring of the Mormon god and one of his many wives. The devil is quite clever in leading people away from the only One who can save them through the shedding of His blood. The Lamb had to be perfect in order to be acceptable as a sacrifice (for sin). The Mormon god and by extension the Mormon Jesus are merely sinful men who learned to behave themselves.
God's nature is totally holy, righteous and pure. That's why He's God.
By believing in a sinful man, Mormons can claim that old adage applied to them; "like father like son". Since Mormons believe that they are the literal spiritual off spring of a Celestial sexual encounter between their god and one of his wives, they're by nature sinners too, right? Some how that all gets lost in the Mormon narrative none-the-less Mormon forgiveness appears to be an elusive concept.
Joseph Smith has been exposed as an enemy of God. Mormons will always struggle with forgiveness because they have no assurance because they really don't have God.
A…m..e..n… I used to hate my name, Paula, but the more I learn about the guy you really like, the more I think my name is not so bad. When things get really cloudy, I like to watch the Lutheran Difference videos, then take a deep breath and say, 'Everything is going to be ok.' 'I got an A.'
falcon – You might like Shawn McCraney's hotm.tv episode he just posted today. Joseph Smith quotes. Its very interesting And found another website, mormonquotes.com http://www.mormonquotes.com/
When I think I am being sensitive, I like to read how Catholics and Protestants are you know going, . . .
Those of us who call the Jesus of the Bible, Savior, are as forgiven at that decision point as we will ever be. Baptism doesn't add anything to what we've already confessed by faith. That is, that Jesus died and shed His blood for our sins. We apply that blood to our sins just like the ancient Hebrews applied the blood of the Passover Lamb to their door frames. When the death angel saw the blood he passed over that house. There was no death.
Baptism symbolizes our new birth in Christ. It's all about identification. We're saved by faith, not by baptism. Some folks place their confidence in all sorts of religious rituals and rites. Thinking that participation in these things will secure for them a place in God's Kingdom. The Lord God has made it clear that the only path to the Father comes through Him. As Paul said, we don't place any confidence in the flesh.
Our measly, pathetic works and religious identification do nothing for us in God's economy.
There's a big difference between a "religious system" and a relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. Mormonism as a religion, dictates and controls how its adherents get right with the Mormon god, stay right with the Mormon god and in the end become gods themselves. There is a prescribed list of rituals and behaviors that need to be performed and adhered to if the faithful Mormon wants to grab the brass ring of deification.
I will admit that there are Christian religions, most notably those that are sacramental in practice, that also cling pretty tightly to a prescribed series of rituals. I can't find a religious system in the NT. What I do find is an emphasis on people coming to a place in their spiritual lives where they recognize that Jesus is God incarnate and that His atoning sacrifice on the cross is sufficient for them to get themselves right with God. I'm not against religious rituals and sacraments perse, but it does concern me when these things become a substitute for a relationship with God or are misapplied.
I've attended several funerals of relatives over the years in a sacramental denominational church and have heard a consistent message being preached (at the funeral). The minister will say that since the person was baptized in this religion, most often as an infant, and had participated in confirmation and………..I think there is one more ritual but it slips my mind as to what is identified……….they are now in heaven. I guess it's assumed that having received these rites of that particular religion, the person should be considered right with God.
I'm not going to judge someone's soul, but I don't think we can assume that participation in religion is going to automatically get someone into the "saved" category.
Mormonism, with its false god, is off to a bad start right off the bat. Then add to it several layers of a religious system and we have a formula for spiritual disaster. Mormons would do well to discover who God is and in doing so learn that salvation can't be earned but is granted on the basis of faith.
Mormon leaders condoning a practice that does'nt line up with the Book of Acts,Epistles , or even
D&C 20:37 respecting when remission of sins takes place, either before baptism or after, is that
what is going on here? Is this a case where today's practice trumps that of former times because
of how we're told by Mormons that the teachings/examples of the "living" prophet takes priority over
dead ones ? Are sincere LDS following this track ? One thing is clear and that is when it comes to
remission of sins, and baptism teachings, Mormon leaders have been seen to be unreliable guides.
Some examples : [ cont. in part 2 ]
part 2
According to Mormon author, James Harris, under Mormon prophet Lorenzo Snow , faithful LDS
followed the regular Church practice of being re-baptized as a prerequisite for admission to the
Temple. Is this still a revealed truth today? Also, the testimony of Joseph C. Kingsbury , where
he testifies of the practice of re-baptism , " You can call it what you please, but suppose it was for
the remission of sins. I do not know whether we had got out of Christ then or not….I do not remember
that I was baptized into Christ any more than three times." [ Temple Lot Case, p.341 ]
Speaking of having your sins "atoned for" , prophet Brigham Young publically taught that if you caught
your wife in the act of adultary with your brother and you put a spear through them, you would be
justified and they would atone for their sins ! Is this really a truth of Jesus' N.T. church ? [ cont part 3]
part 3
I suppose more examples of "truth" from Mormon prophets could be given. When examining their
teaching track record bear in mind the claims that precede their spiritual guidance:
" The Lord surely understood the need to keep His doctrines pure, and to trust its interpretation
to only one source…..In this way conflict and confusion and differing opinions are eliminated."
[ Apostle Tom Perry, Ensign Nov.1994 ]
Dear LDS, are you tired of the ever changing "truths" of your leaders? There is a spiritual leader,
a Prophet, that will never be a unreliable guide to you. His name is Jesus. He is enough. Find out
how Majestic He is. He can replace the road blocks between you and God that your leaders have
set up. Please consider Rom.10:9-13, Phil 3:9, Heb 7:25
These Mormon "prophets" are stumbling blocks, they are not stepping stones that lead to knowledge concerning the forgiveness of sins. They place conditions on everything therefore making people dependent on the Mormon system rather than the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The formula for the forgiveness of sins is "Jesus + 0= forgiveness". The problem is that these Mormon pretenders never had an idle thought that wasn't expressed verbally. Hence we get a lot of herky jerky pronouncements that are the revelations of corrupt minds.
Jesus is the answer. Trust in Him. Unlike the Mormon prophets, Jesus will never lead you astray.
Rick,
That is so interesting. There is actually an Egyptian baptism which was done using a small bowl on the front of the head. Intended to clean the third eye ritually. It looks like the catholic version of infant baptism, but it may be done on an adult. I am a bit confused as to what type of baptism was performed Jesus.
Rick, so what is exactly the point about jesus NOT baptizing, but getting baptized? Doesn't he state that it was necessary to fulfill the law or something like that?
falcon, you're right, Mormon prophets are stumbling blocks. Their authoritive claims of being
trustworthy in scriptural interpretation on many important doctrines are seen for what they
actually are —- mere boasting. Their spiritual counsel amounts to , in many cases, as mere
guessing, all the while hinting to their followers that if they want God's favor then submit to the
prophet ! I cited the example of their confusion over the aspect of rebaptism being a uniform
procedure under prophet Woodruff ( I mention it was Lorenzo Snow but it was Woodruff ) , and
then this ""revealed truth" was rejected under subsequent prophets . May the precious LDS people
seen this behavior for what it is — mere guessing disguised as "truth" . Jer.23:16
Coming to an understanding of who Jesus is, is the first step in obtaining forgiveness. When someone seeks forgiveness from an entity that isn't God, they may as well be praying to a totem pole. Dumb idols have no power to forgive someone of their sins. It really doesn't matter if Mormons talk about receiving Jesus as their personal Savior. That's good evangelical language to describe a born again experience, however if the Jesus that is being "accepted as Lord and Savior" is the offspring of one of a pantheon of gods and one of his goddess wives, the language and vocabulary are just a rip off.
The Mormon Jesus does not exist in the pages of God's revelation, the Bible. The Jesus who is revealed in God's Word is God Himself. God made man is Jesus. Man made god is a wild fantasy. The God of the Bible is not one of many gods, but thee God, the great I am. He appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush. Through out the Bible God repeatedly says that He is One. He knows no other God but Himself, He says, as He reveals Himself to His chosen prophets.
Joseph Smith's "revelation" was different than the God revealed in the Bible. The choice is simple; either Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith. One leads to eternal life through the forgiveness of sins. The other is a figment of Smith's fertile imagination and it leads to eternal destruction.
You disappoint me. Research before you open your mouth. The LDS church teaches that the basic Gospel of Jesus Christ is 1. Faith in Jesus Christ 2. REPENTANCE 3. Baptism 4. Gift of the Holy Ghost and 5. Endurance for the rest of your life, which means you live the commandments and continue to repent. Notice the REPENTANCE before the baptism? Why do you think they interview people for worthiness before the baptism?
Everything that is in the LDS Standard Works supports the remission of sins before baptism. In addition to this everything in the LDS Scriptures all in all teaches of a triune, strictly Eternal God (monotheism). So NOWHERE in actual official Scripture of the LDS is the current LDS theology or doctrines of salvation as the Mormon General Authorities teach today. The LDS problem is largely that its Apostles are NOT inspired in the least–rather they are radical false teachers.
BTW-The pattern of Faith, Repentance, Baptism, GOHG, Enduring, is not an LDS invention. Rather it is the doctrine of salvation of the Campbellites to which Sidney Rigdon imported into Mormonism when it was first founded with its original legal title ‘Church of Christ’. This ‘Church of Christ’ title was also the official legal title of the Campbellites.