The Mormon Church and its members seem to take pride in the fact that the Church has no paid clergy. This pride also extends to include the strong sense of volunteerism within the Church. Virtually every active adult Mormon receives a “church calling” – a responsibility like teaching children’s Primary, working in a temple, or genealogy work – which most members fulfill without any financial compensation. This selfless Mormon service is admirable, though it should be remembered that the same kind of selfless service is also found in non-Mormon churches and other charitable organizations all over the world. In the Mormon culture, this fact is often forgotten. Many Mormons take such pride in the idea of an unpaid clergy that they get a bit carried away and insist that nobody in the LDS Church gets paid. On Mormon.org the question is asked, “Why don’t Mormons have a paid clergy?” Members answer (for example),
April: “Oh! I love this question. I love belonging to a church where everyone works for free. Everyone from the top clergy members down to the people who take out the trash do it for free.” Bradford: “We have ‘clergy’ in the sense that we have leaders on local and worldwide levels, but all leaders serve on a voluntary basis. This helps to ensure that our leaders’ motives are pure, and that they are serving out of love rather than greed.” Neils: “All positions of leadership in the church is done voluntarily.” Christian: “Every member of the Church volunteers their time and talents to make the Church go. Nobody gets paid because we’re all in it together!”
Mormon responder Brandon offered this explanation of why it’s important that Mormon leaders are not paid:
“As we read the scriptures, we see that Christ’s disciples gave up everything they had to follow Him. This is what’s called consecration, when you dedicate yourself to whatever calling the Lord gives to you. The Lord never paid His disciples. The only one who was given money was Judas Iscariot because he betrayed the Savior.”
Wow. Brandon must be unaware of the fact that LDS Apostles (unlike Christ’s apostles) do receive financial compensation from the Mormon Church. The Mormon apologetic group FAIR explains,
“Some members of the Church are unaware that at least some General Authorities do receive a modest living stipend. While it is true that some Church leaders receive a living allowance while they serve in a given position, it cannot be said that the Church has a professional ministry in the traditional sense.”
Gordon B. Hinckley (who became the 15th Mormon President) clarified in a 1982 pamphlet published by the LDS Church,
“What of the Mormon clergy? …There is no paid or professional ministry. A small number of general officers and the presidents of missions are given living allowances. Add to this the necessary specialists and clerks who give their full working time to the Church. These constitute all who may be classified as paid personnel.” (What of the Mormons, printed September 1982, 5)
Mormon apologist and author Eric Shuster, responding to bloggers who claim some Mormon leaders are paid well for their church service, wrotein part,
“There are about 450 international, full-time LDS Church leaders who are offered a ‘living allowance’ (more like a stipend) when they are called – of which many to [sic] do not accept the allowance as they are often financially secure. In many cases the allowance is hardly enough to live on and only a token payment for incidentals.”
The Mormon Church does not release its financial information in the United States because the law does not require it. But in some countries it does, so this sort of information for the Church operating in Great Britain, for example, is available to the public. According to the most recent reporting (for year end 2009), the LDS Church in Great Britain employed 456 people in the broad categories of “teaching function” (23), “office administration” (202), and “building cleaners” (231). Nineteen of these employees each earned over $97, 000 US (broken down further in the report as follows [using currency conversion data from August 10, 2011]: 12 employees earned between $97,000 and $113,000; 7 employees earned between $114,000 and $129,000). If I did my math right, the remaining 437 employees earned an average of approximately $30,000 each. I don’t know who the 19 highest paid Church employees are in this report, but Jon at Mormon Discussions claims they include Mission Presidents and Temple Presidents (also see a relevant discussion here). As an average Church member at Mormon.org, Andrew seems to have a better grasp of the Mormon unpaid clergy issue than others posting there, acknowledging some pay for some leaders. He wrote,
“The highest leaders in the LDS church do receive a ‘living allowance,’ Church-funded housing, subsidized/discounted meals at Church-owned cafeterias, and an automobile or car pool service, all of which has a monetary value. Many individuals who teach Mormon doctrine or history receive payment from the Church as professional teachers, such as religion professors at Church-owned schools and seminary instructors who teach in Utah. However, local church administrators, and seminary teachers outside of Utah, are not paid anything of monetary value for their countless hours of service to the Church.”
I do not begrudge the LDS Church the right to hire (or not hire) as many people as they want, or the right to pay (or not pay) their employees whatever they choose. But I find it curious that so many Mormons insist on the superiority of their church borne out in the erroneous belief that nobody—no Church leaders–are paid. Or, if a Mormon admits that there is some financial remuneration for certain callings, he insists it is only a small living allowance that “is hardly enough to live on and only a token payment for incidentals.” I know a lot of people (my pastor included) who would love to receive a token living allowance of $113,000.
—
For more information see Mormonism’s Paid Ministry at mrm.org.
The Mormon people are so convinced that they are in the true Church being directed
by Jesus Himself, that they really don’t want to know things like this. When a person
has been convinced that they need a prophet to lead them and that submission to that
prophet is the measure of their devotion to God, then whatever the prophet teaches
is just accepted . Mormon heirarchy dress well , always talk of moral values, so how
could they be wrong ? If the Mormon people have been led to think there’s no “paid
clergy” in their Church then there just is’nt . Right ?
I learned that the general authorities and the prophet receive a “modest” payment for their services while at a temple class. I was assured that it wasn’t much and that the only reason they get it is because they have to leave their jobs to run the church. Have you seen how old most of those men are? I would bet most are retired from their regular jobs. Now I don’t have a problem with the church paying anyone. I really don’t. It’s not a big deal. What is a big deal is the superiority that you mentioned. I do have a problem with that. I also have a problem with anyone who judges other churches for paying their clergy, then turn around and brag about how Mormon clergy are not paid. I also think that a church who refuses to report on it’s earnings is dishonest. I saw an interview with Gordon Hinckley and he was asked why they don’t make it public like other churches, he said it’s because it’s no one’s business except the church members. Obviously they haven’t filled in the members on how the money is being spent either. In fact the members are even more in the dark than the rest of us.
What I find the most interesting is the thought that, if the highest church leaders only receive a modest stipend (and we can argue about what modest means — if it’s more than I make WORKING in a year, it’s not modest in my eyes), then it would probably mean that most of those in the highest church positions are independently wealthy. So — God only calls to to those positions men who already make or made a heck of a lot of money? Really?
If we read the NT, especially in Paul’s writing we see that Paul worked to support his ministry but also discussed financial support for those in ministry (Acts 18:3; Acts 16:14-15; Galatians 6:5-6) are just a few verses but there are others. One in particular Paul talks about not “muzzling the ox” while he’s beating down the threshing floor. A reference to allowing the ox to eat as he works.
Growing-up Catholic, the nuns who taught me in school took a vow of poverty as did many other orders of priests and nuns. I know at a certain point Billy Graham quit taking a salary from the ministry as he received compensation for books he wrote.
Most pastors of denominational churches invested money in going to college and seminary. It’s not free so if they are compensated for their training and their work, what’s the big deal?
I think this is just one more case of Mormon haughtiness that doesn’t really speak to humility. Didn’t the Mormons use to have a drama during one of their temple rituals where Satan is paying a Christian pastor to go and preach? As a lot of things in Mormonism including the throat cutting and bowel dissection gestures during a temple rituals, once it was made public it was dropped.
So much for the sacred rituals that were restored!
This is one of those areas that the Mormon people ( and everyone) should be concerned
with. Where does my money go? What is the leadership doing with my money? Why
is’nt there a way to find out how much money leaders are getting personally etc.
It seems the groups that advertise that they are the one true church with the
prophet God speaks through today, that this type of behavior with money is common.
I think the vast majority of Mormons just don’t care about this. Once a person has been
convinced that they are required to submit to a prophet in order to gain God’s favor, and
that the measure of their devotion to God is seen by how much they submit to this prophet,
then why doubt anything the prophet says ? If this prophet tells you to just trust him
about the money issue— then that’s it, period. I remember that for a long time members
of the Mormon leadership were conveniently placed on boards of large Mormon owned
companies and paid for their time. Since the Church did’nt actually pay them it worked in
their favor nicely. Once you make a claim designed to show how different you are from
all those abominable churches, then you find a way to get around to “proving” that claim
even if it is through word games. “stipend” ” allowance” ? The real sad part of all this is
that this behavior of being clandestine with this money issue , is that it carries over to how
the Mormon leadership have instructed the Missionaries to handle investigators with those
“unique” Mormon doctrines— deny or down- play them .
This is one of those cases where mormonism is sort of right but for all the wrong reasons. Not getting paid and serving free of charge is the Biblical model but not as something to boast about. Especially not when you run an organization that is so secretive about its finances.
They also don’t include the fact that seminary teachers in predominantly Mormon areas are paid as well. They like to argue that this isn’t the same as “paid clergy”, since it’s part of the education system. Um… pretty sure if you’re getting paid to teach the gospel, then you’re getting paid to teach the gospel. Like other posters, I don’t really care if they get paid or not. But the superiority factor is not only wrong, it’s just irritating.
Mormons have to fork over 10% of their income to the LDS church. This is a huge corporation with all sorts of holdings including malls and at least one cattle ranch that I know of. How much of this money goes for general benevolence not attached to the LDS church?
Mormon Inc. out of Salt Lake City is a huge business. Getting a temple recommend is a great lever for extracting $$$$$ from the members. There’s also a profit in the McTemples that were cropping up all over. The pay back time was relatively short and business is brisk when folks have to purchase temple garments etc. for their visit.
Since they don’t advertise where the money is going, there could be all sorts of perks and bennies for those men who make it to the top of the Mormon pyramid.
Facts: Estimated net worth of $30 billion plus and still expanding. At one time the Church was deep in debt after Our Government ( Edmunds-Tucker Act in 1887) took ownership of all the assets. The inspiration of paying of tithing (giving 10% of one’s income to the church) this allowed the LDS church to completely be out of debt and since then has not used debt to fund its operations, even for capital projects.
I imagine a program envied by Orthodox Christians who find many of their Churches struggling to keep their heads above water.
So as to where it goes: Construction, Meetinghouses, Temples, Welfare (natural disasters).
LDS church incurs virtually no long-term liabilities, amazing thing happen when a religion is Led by Christ. 🙂
” So as to where it goes: Construction, Meetinghouses, Temples, Welfare( natural
disasters) ” .
How about hunting preserves ? [ Deseret News, Monday 7-10-2000 ]. Well, maybe this
is self supporting, but until the books are open to the faithful tithe giver who knows ?
The Church incurs no long -term liabilities ? Just like many secular companies . Maybe
Jesus is running them also.
Mike, you can pick and pick, but the facts are that without tithing by at lest 1/3 of our faithful members the Church would not have grown at the speed it did. The Books will be opened Mike and Christ will judge all those who robbed him.
Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mike said
The LDS church will never open their books to the people. The Church I go to, if you are a member of the church you are welcome to sit in on the meetings and see where every dime was spent.
But only members of the church are allowed, You could not be a stranger who walks in off the street and says, Let me see you records of where your money went. But at least they show us if we care to know.
Tithing, something orthodox christian say is “too old testament.” Wonder why?
How about THESE BOOKS:
April 10, 1878: This 10th day of April, 1878, is a very important day in the history of my life and the Church. I was appointed at the last October Conference as the Chairman of the Auditing Committee to audit the accounts of the late President Brigham Young, Trustee in Trust of the Church f Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and all other Church accounts, and after six months of hard labor, we find the estate of the late President Brigham Young indebted to the Church on trustee business to the amount of $999,632.90.
And never have been enabled to form a settlement of the estate with the executors until today, when all accounts were settled and the following property turned over. The following property was turned over today by George Q. Cannon and Brigham Young and Albert Carrington as executors of the Estate of President Brigham Young to John Taylor, Trustee in Trust for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This property turned over was Church property or to pay Church debts:
The Empire Mills
$40,000
Two offices of Pres. Young 7,000
Gardo House
100,000
Theater
125,000
Various lots of land
28,648.50
Washington Factory
60,000
Z.C.M.I. stock
118,000
Provo Factory
50,000
Utah Southern Railroad Bonds 16,000
Street Railroad Bonds or Stock 55,050
Salt Lake City Gas Stock
80,000
For Mary Ann and Amelia Young 20,000
Total
699,698.00
FOR THE SERVICES TENDERED THE CHURCH 30 YEAR
$10,000 [PER YEAR]
$300,000
Total of all claims against the estate = $999,698.50.
Woodruff Journals, under that date at the top.
Helen says,
“………..amazing thing happen when a religion is Led by Christ.”
Well Helen who is the Mormon Christ?
He is “a god”, the spirit off spring of one of the many Mormon gods and one of his many goddess wives. The Mormon “Christ” is not God incarnate. In fact the Mormon “Christ” isn’t even the “Christ” written about in the BoM. The Mormon “Christ” is, as Jesus warned, a false Christ who cannot bring salvation.
Besides the Mormon Christ is available to Mormons only if they don’t do enough to become gods themselves and need to be bailed out on their way to becoming gods.
The Mormon Christ is not prayed to by Mormons and there’s also confusion among Mormons as to whether the Mormon Christ should actually be prayed to and adored. The Mormon Christ is just one of many gods in the Mormon pantheon of gods.
I believe Scientology has a ton of money and I don’t know if they are led by Christ. I’m guessing the Muslims and Buddhists are doing pretty well financially also and they are not led by Christ.
So I don’t think monetary wealth is much of a measure of the truthfulness of a religion.
Unpaid clergy turns about to be as reliable as the BOM being the “most correct book” (translated: needing numerous changes). Unpaid turns out to mean some people are paid quite well, while most correct turns out to mean a book which needs a good theological editorial review to make sure it aligns with current Mormon teaching.
I wouldn’t mind having an additional stipend of $129,000/year.
As far as the Mormon Church being fabulously wealthy – that does not prove they are the one true Church, or even that they have truth period. Wealth has never been a good judge of truth. It’s another form of might makes right–no.
January 4, 1882: Met in council at 10 o’clock when several subjects were discussed. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles expressed themselves; very strongly opposed to setting an example by opening a door for any man in the Church, President or Apostle, to draw funds from the Church without limit fortheir own use or any other purpose. There should be a fixed sum for every man.
January 10, 1883: I attended the Council in the afternoon and a vote was taken to raise the WAGES of Erastus Snow to $2500 a year and that he send up his bank account and it should be allowed him.
Just a few from Woodruff’s Journals. There are plenty more in other diaries from the era. Wow, $2500 a year in 1883. Quite the “living allowance” don’t you think? That’s about $60,000 in today’s money. _johnny
So do Mormons give freely or do they do so under compulsion?
Actually Mormon giving is kind of a protection racket. If you don’t ante-up you don’t get the temple recommend and if you don’t get the temple recommend you can’t get into the temple, and if you can’t get into the temple you can’t do the rituals that will lead to you becoming a god.
So this extortion plan puts the screws to the members to the extent that if the protection money isn’t paid, a Mormon can’t even get into the temple to attend a family wedding.
People differ in their opinions regarding giving. I can’t think of any Christian church that won’t let people be involved at all levels unless they contribute a certain amount of cash.
“I think it may be time to “shroud” Helen. She’s just here to get attention and play Mormon games.”
LOL, some just can’t get enough of poor old Helen and some have to make “Holy Discernment” pledges
hoping to guide the “uninitiated” in the way of spiritual guidance. Be sure to use you gift wisely Falcon, the Lord has entrusted you with His loving Grace and infused you with talent from on high. Smiling.
grindael says:
August 26, 2011 at 6:58 am
How about THESE BOOKS:
Here is some more light and knowledge on why this occurred.
[Link removed]
[Helen, please, per Mormon Coffee comment policy, summarize in your own words the arguments presented on sites/articles you want to link to.]
I think the Church’s lawyers have long figured out how to help Church leaders navigate
issues concerning any monetary remuneration . If Mormonism advertises that it is
different from all those abominable christian churches where a paid ministry is concerned,
then that’s the truth! For a long time Mormon owned companies placed many Church leaders
on their Boards , thus their salary did’nt come from the Church. I’m sure this was conceived
by Church lawyers. One fact about the Mormon church in reguard to finances is that it has
been very successful thru the years in investing and advertising. Nothing odd here except that
it was a common practice for Church to advertise in their newspaper as well as on KSL radio
and KSL T.V. for coffee , beer etc. John L. Smith , a pastor who lived in Utah for 17 years
observed this regularly . This behavior has since been curtailed. Perhaps if the Church made
available their financial records to rank and file members the whole truth of where the money
comes from would be known. Mormons might be surprised to find out about all this. Chances
are most Mormons don’t care to pursue this . Once a person has become persuaded that
their life is’nt complete without a prophet to follow and that their submission to this man is
the measure of their devotion to God , then questioning how the prophet leads is usually not
mentally allowed. This covers the prophet’s guidance in spiritual as well as financial issues.
So do most Mormons care if their leaders won’t allow the financial books to be open to them ?
No. They’re too submissive and to busy. May God help the Mormon people to step back and
evaluate where they stand . Jesus said : Matt.7:15
Blind sided, oh my gosh, after all these years and having the witness of the HG now I have to be concerned about the Books. So to have my testimony given to me through prayer and by revelation, now I have to consider getting my hands on these books and praying about them, what’s a Mormon to do.
Helen said
I agree, yet the problem is the LDS church is not lead by Christ, The real founder is Lucifer, and Joseph Smith is who you guys follow and sing about.
Have you read the Mormon hymnal? I did, the songs are about Joseph Smith, Not Jesus.
Helen,
“I imagine a program envied by Orthodox Christians who find many of their Churches struggling to keep their heads above water.”
How do you know Orthodox Christian churches are trying to keep their heads above water? Probably from the same place that I was told that. I would dare say that the Catholic Church is just as wealthy or even more wealthy than the LDS church. It has over 1 billion members. Oops! That’s a lot more than the LDS! I think the difference is, Christians give what God puts on their hearts to give and Mormons are commanded to give a certain percentage. In Christian churches you are not booted out of the program if you choose to feed your children instead of giving. What happens to the destitute in Mormonism? Sorry, no 10%, no exaltation. God does not work this way. Before you say that the church helps those who are destitute, let me just say that I have a few friends who received no help at all. They were sure to get in that tithing though, and who suffered? Their children. You said it’s an amazing thing that happens when a religion is led by Christ. I think it’s an abhorrent thing when men amass extreme personal wealth from faithful members, who they convince aren’t going to Heaven unless they fork over their money. How do you know where all that tithing money goes? You give the same generic comments as other LDS and even LDS leaders. Until the LDS church shows the public where that money goes, you have no clue. You know, I could be filthy rich if could convince people I hold the key to Heaven and the only way they are getting through is to give me their money.
So what can a “church” accomplish if it’s led by Christ?
My father-in-law was not real fond of organized religion, especially the money part. He didn’t come to Christ (the real Christ) until he was literally on his death bed. It was interesting though, he would write out a check to the Salvation Army without hesitation around Christmas time. He remembered the kindness and benevolence the Salvation Army showed him and other WWII vets during that conflict. The Salvation Army wasn’t looking to rope these GIs into the Salvation Army church. They were simply carrying out the mandate of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I could list numerous Christian organizations that do the same. What they do for the general welfare of people would dwarf that of the LDS church which, while taking care of their own, aren’t known as big benefactors to the population at large.
I’m wondering if the LDS church takes care of their poorer members when it comes to reaching the top of the Mormon rung, becoming a god. Are those on the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder given financial assistance to cover the costs involved in becoming a god? That is, after all, the point of the Mormon gospel.
Helen sez
“Tithing, something orthodox christian say is “too old testament.” Wonder why?”
Well, because storehouse tithing is not commanded or shown by example in the New Testament. Anywhere. Like so much of mormonism, your leaders use terminology from the Old Testament when God’s people operated under the Old Covenant and try to apply it to a New Covenant people: temples, priesthood, tithing, prophets, etc. Just appropriating Old Testament terminology and perverting the meaning to create a control structure over people is not being “lead by the Holy Ghost”, it is manipulation, pure and simple.
Nowhere in the New Covenant church are God’s people commanded or expected to bring their “tithe” to the storehouse to support the operations of an organization. Giving under the New Covenant is voluntary, not tied to a specific percentage of income and used almost exclusively to meet the material needs of other believers. Not for building “meeting houses”. Not for building “temples”. Most certainly not for investing in businesses, farms, shopping malls, etc. It is often helpful to read Scripture in context, not just the surrounding verses but also in context of the entire witness of Scripture.
Johnny, that as very interesting concerning Brigham Young. Since Mormons today
are kept in dark as to what their leaders do with their money we can only guess how
recent leaders have fared financially . Joseph Fielding Smith died in 1972, he left
behind an estimated estate valued at close to million dollars. Meanwhile according
to the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. 1977 , U.S. Dept. of Commerce , Utah ranked
36th in per capita income [ $ 4,923 ] .
The bottom line here is how the Mormon Church advertises itself in comparison to all
those abominable corrupt other churches , and the fact that faithful Mormons are not
allowed access to where all the money comes from or where it goes . But then again we’re
talking about a Church leadership that has set up a rule that bars most faithful followers
from being able to gain access to the Heavenly Father’s house —a cup of tea .
The Mormon people deserve a better arrangement . It’s a Savior we all need, not another
prophet to follow claiming to be God’s mouthpiece.
Oh poor Helen.
She really doesn’t want first hand information about the Mormon church or especially BY posted on a site where questioning Mormons might find the information appalling.
Keep it coming grindael.
As an exMormon who actually knows how to read, study and research your credentials are impeccable.
Helen,
So now you’re back to your holy witness and holy revelation riff.
Who exactly is this Holy Ghost who is witnessing to you Helen? In Mormonism there is both a Holy Ghost and a Holy Spirit. The latter being an energy force likened to electricity.
The Mormon Holy Ghost is another Mormon god who became a god without having had a body or doing any of the normal work the average Mormon is suppose to do to become a god. I guess therefore this Mormon god has never been married and thus does not have any Mormon goddess wives.
I’d be real careful Helen as to what spirit entities you are calling on to reveal things to you. There’s a lot of spirit traffic out there and given the occult nature of Mormonism, you can never tell who’s whispering in your ear.
Helen,
Have I told you that I’ve had it revealed to me that the BoM is false?
Just checking. 🙂
Hay, does anyone know what these Mormon prophets, who are hearing from God, paid Mark Hoffman for those bogus forgeries he was peddling?
That really shocked a lot of Mormons, first of all because they discovered that their prophet and apostles had zero discernment regarding what was going on. I’m guessing they were also more than a little perturbed because the poh bahs were willing to fork over tithe money to get a hold of some papers that they thought might embarrass the LDS church and Joseph Smith.
That’s what happens when there’s no public accounting of funds. And we get these Mormons who think that they got a burning in the bosom regarding the BoM and now they are willing to hand over control of their lives to some bogus prophet.
I did a quick google search looking to see how much $$$ the brethren got conned out of from Mark Hoffman and this is what I came up with. I would have thought they would have gotten Joe’s magic rock out of the vault to divine if they should let loose with the cash.
1. May ’80–Hofmann trades the Anthon transcript to Hinckley for $20,000 worth of other authentic old documents from the vaults. This is the one that appeared in all the newspapers with Hofmann, Hinckley, Kimball and others sitting around the table together. Kimball was examining the document while holding a magnifying glass. Guess he should have used a seer stone, eh?
2. Feb ’81–father’s blessing from Joseph Smith the prophet to Joseph Smith III, stating that the young boy was next in line to lead the church. $10,000+ cash.
3. Mar ’81–“Valley Notes” early Mormon currency certificates, $20,000.
4. Mar ’82–Martin Harris Testimony, $20,000 in trade for other authentic historical documents.
5. July ’82–“Lucy Mack Letter”, $30,000+ in trade for other authentic historical documents.
6. Sept ’82–“Maid of Iowa” riverboat tickets, $7,500.
7. Jan ’83–“Stowell Money-Digging Letter to Joseph Smith”, $15,000 cash received directly from Hinckley with the parting comment- “this is one letter that will never see the light of day.”
8. Jan ’84–“Salamander Letter”, $40,000.
9. Oct ’84–“Betsy Ross letter” $12,000.
10. Nov ’84–“Jim Bridger signatures”, $10,000.
11. June ’85–“McLellin Papers” $185,000.
12. July ’85–“Martin Harris Personal Copy of ‘View of the Hebrews'” sold directly to Hinckley for an undisclosed amount.
13. Aug ’85–“David Whitmer Letter”, sold directly to Hinckley for an undisclosed amount.
14. Oct ’85–Hinckley extends $500,000 line of credit to Steve Christensen to locate and purchase damaging documents with Hofmann’s assistance.
15. Oct ’85–“Kinderhook Translation”, Direct offer from Hinckley to purchase for $150,000, but due to the bombings the sale was never completed.
falcon,
Thanks for this info. I knew about some of this but some of it is new information. That is A LOT of tithing money spent. I remember when the bombings happened and all of this was on the news. I know at our house, we didn’t even question the LDS leaders involvement in it. I don’t know why either. I may have to ask my mom about this. I’m wondering how the LDS twist this to make it OK. ( I’m asking myself this too, because I did this as well.) Mike is right, this is what happens when we give our lives over to poor spiritual guides.
This topic has always been a struggle for me. I remember being filled with the pride that Sharon discusses. For me, it was the ultimate test of the Church’s validity and the ultimate judgment on all other churches. “Filthy lucre” is the term from the KJV that Mormons use to refer to the salaries paid to professional clergy. The term “professional clergy” is something I came to understand while a student at Nazarene Bible College. God indeed calls people to professional ministry. This is something they do full-time. As Falcon noted, they invest their own money to be educated so as to be able to present the Gospel in an orthodox and systematic way. In the Nazarene Church, most pastors have paid about $30,ooo to receive the necessary education (this is called “being equipped”) just so they can enter a field that will pay them, initially, barely enough to support their family and pay their school bills. It’s not a lucrative proposition by any stretch of the imagination. With that said, I will add that LDS bishops are severely lacking in their training. I know this first hand as a former member–one who served in a bishopric. The bigger knock is on a system that puts untrained and inadequate people into such important roles. It took me a long time to understand this.
Peace…
Helen,
Do you have the same spirit operating in you as your prophets did when they forked over money from the LDS till for some forgeries, many of which could have proven embarrassing to the Church? These guys were ripe to be conned because they knew of Smith’s occult past and the fantastic stories that he told. Without any real accountability in the system, these dudes just handed over the church’s money. A short news account on the twenty-fifth anniversary of the debacle:
“Hofmann produced another document which caused an even greater stir. Known as the “Salamander Letter” it was apparently written by Martin Harris to a local newspaper editor and describes the finding of the gold plates in very different terms than in official church accounts. It connects Joseph Smith with folk-magic practices of the time, including treasure-hunting with “seerstones” and claims that Joseph Smith stated, “the spirit transfigured himself from a white salamander in the bottom of the hole & struck me 3 times” to prevent him from obtaining the gold plates immediately.
Some Mormon scholars immediately began adapting this unusual account into historical perspectives because it was supported from numerous other sources, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, including an 1826 trial in which the young Joseph Smith was convicted of a misdemeanor for his treasure hunting activities. Hofmann, well-versed in Mormon history and theology, seemed to take particular delight in producing forgeries that would be embarrassing to the church.”
Read more at Suite101: The Salt Lake City Murders After 25 Years | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/the-salt-lake-city-murders-after-25-years-a302045#ixzz1W9oC4ZuS
So the members of the LDS church give themselves over completely to a bunch of men claiming to be prophets who have no more idea of what they are doing than the average man on the street.
Check FAIR for your “feel better now” explanation.
“Salamander Letter”, “forgeries”, embarrassing.
I guess I could send you information on a good internet site, but Sharon wants me to summarize a very complex issues and I just don’t have the time. So good friend, try googling the other side of the coin for more light and knowledge that your talking points books don’t reveal.
Better yet just google and use “your holy discernment” to test the spirit of the URL before entering and being tempted to read; something that your discernment is telling you to run from, really, really fast. Smiling 🙂
Falcon, ” the same spirit ” ? McConkie teaches LDS that the “power of discernment”
that God gives Mormons is especially given to Mormon leaders to be able to warn their
people from false teachings and false spirits, ” lest any come among the Saints and practice
deception.” Claiming to be the only “appointed Channel” that God uses to speak to His people
the Mormon prophet claims his alleged authority to relay God’s spiritual truths . The
same inner conviction, the same spiritual witness that Mormon leaders have cited as proof
that what they teach is from the Holy Ghost is also cited as validation by individual Mormons
for their beliefs. This ” spiritual witness” was claimed by Brigham Young when he revealed that
Adam was the Father of Jesus, both spiritually and physically. This same spiritual witness was
used by Mormon leaders to teach as truthful counsel that first time attendee’s in Temple rituals
had to be re-baptized first, [ they dumped this truth later on]. This same spiritual witness also
was used by Mormon leaders to confirm that Mark Hoffman was telling them the truth about
documents he was selling them . This same spiritual witness was also claimed by Bill Hoffman
Mark’s father , when he testified that, upon Mark’s arrest for murder, that he knew his son was
innocent . This same spiritual witness is also cited as varification that their beliefs are true by
a group of gay LDS and ex-LDS . They state their testimony, ” Our lives and relationships can be
compatible with the gospel.” I hesitated to include this, but this deception of trusting in a
perceived feeling/witness from God can be spiritually lethal if not abandoned for the more
sure ground of God’s Word -1Jn4:1 ; Matt7:15
Helen,
Nice escape! You’re way tooooooooooooooooooo busy to formulate an answer so you just do the Mormon two step and then run for the bushes and hide. Very typical! I’m guessing your testimony can’t handle the truth and when you think of how the SLC boys were spending church money on forgeries; well it’s more than you can take. I’ll bet the boys at FAIR and FARMS have some “all better blankies” for you to wrap yourself up in to keep secure when the cold hard facts are shaking your faith.
I would guess that you are using your holy revelation and the spirit of Mormonism that whispers audibly in your ear to help you maintain your faith in your “profits” and their inability to use any discernment what-so-ever to get scammed.
I’m not only smiling, a lot, but I’m LOL. 🙂 🙂 🙂 You are truly a gem Helen. Please keep posting!
Mike R,
I like and appreciate your pounding away at this theme of the unreliability of the Mormon prophets and the fool hardiness of putting one’s faith and trust in those who are consistently wrong. Mark Hoffman could read these “marks” perfectly. He knew how they thought, he knew their fears, and he knew their gullibility based on their acceptance of the Joseph Smith myth.
The fact-of-the-matter is that these false prophets were really frightened especially of the “Salamander Letter”. It fit in so well with Smith’s other claims of spirit beings appearing to him that they thought it was true. They didn’t want it exposed because it’s so ridiculous and yet they didn’t have the discernment to figure out that it wasn’t true at all.
Here’s a good summary:
“Mark Hofmann was a forger and shrewd observer of human behavior. Like any good con man, he knew part of his success manufacturing and selling fake historical documents depended on willing victims – people who wanted to believe his claims.
Growing up Mormon, Hofmann realized he was surrounded by credulous people who were trained to trust those who presented themselves as authorities. He also saw they were nuts about their sacred history and legends. There was a situation ripe for exploitation.
Hofmann’s method was to learn what kind of documents people really wanted to find and then he would “find” them. Producing what people already wanted assured a lucrative market. Or he would create things no one imagined existed because it was harder to challenge their authenticity.
Hofmann had a grudge against the church, so he took special glee in selling bogus church-related documents. It was one thing to fool collectors, it would be quite another to fool the supposedly inspired leaders of the church. Besides, they had deeper pockets.”
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon322.htm
Deep pockets indeed. The church’s deep pockets!
Mike R.
From the same site cited above, the author just nails it regarding the falseness of the Mormon prophets and their inability to spiritual discern what was going on with Mark Hofmann.
“Like most inactive Mormons, Hofmann was pretty sure the brethren had no special divine light, no powers of discernment. They did have access to document experts, though. So Hofmann tested the waters with some minor forgeries. The fish took the hook.
Hofmann knew Joseph Smith and his family had been heavily involved in ritual magic, astrology and alchemy. He knew they believed in charms and incantations, in ghosts and shape-shifting creatures. And he knew that the brethren knew and that they didn’t want others to know, because it wasn’t faith-promoting.
So Hofmann concocted the “salamander letter,” an account of JS encountering a talking salamander that turned into an angel. The forgery neatly connected the Smith family’s occult practices with the origins of Mormonism.
The fact church leaders accepted the salamander letter as authentic tells us several things. First, they didn’t say, “Joseph Smith, the Lord’s chosen prophet of the restoration, never saw any talking salamanders. That would never have happened, so this document is obviously fake.” Rather, they accepted that JS might have had such a vision because they knew there were even weirder things recorded.
Secondly, we know none of the brethren involved said, “Um, wait, something’s not quite right here. I’m having a stupor of thought, a bad feeling.” Either the brethren didn’t consult the Lord about the document and its “finder” (contrary to the claim they don’t spend a dime of the Lord’s money without his blessing) or they were insufficiently in tune with the Spirit to get the message, or the Lord didn’t care, or there was no divine force out there to give them a clue.”
cont.
So the Mormon faithful are entrusting these “prophets” not only with their money but also their spiritual destiny? What kind of gross mismanagement of funds is this to spend church money on a total scam?
We have three things going on here and that is obvious. First of all the Mormon prophets have no special spiritual insights or gift of discernment because they don’t have the Spirit of God. Secondly they appear to have free reign over the treasury of the Mormon church if they can dole out money on what turned out to be total forgeries. Lastly, they get it when it comes to the fact that Joseph Smith and his family trafficked in the occult and that the manufactured and cleaned-up myth of Joseph Smith is a lot more palatable to the faithful than the truth.
There’s are several lessons here for our Mormon readers. Foremost among them is that you can’t count on your prophets to give you the spiritual truth. They are incapable of it.
Finally, beware of spiritual “feelings” and even manifestations associated with the spirit of Mormonism. The foundation of the religion is not built on Jesus Christ and God’s Holy Spirit. I’m guessing it’s particularly difficult for those Mormons who have had these spiritual feelings generated to come to the conclusion that the facts in evidence don’t line-up with their testimony feelings. They have to face the fact that they haven’t heard from the God who is revealed in the Bible. The spirit of the anti-Christ is more than happy to provide those who are open to it, with all sorts of feelings, impressions and manifestations.
Mormon reader, go back to the Bible. Discover the real Jesus.
Stop supporting an organization that does not represent the Living God.
Falcon, the claims made by Mormon leaders is the whole point. It’s their exclusive claim
to be the one true church , their claim to the true christians, the claim to be ” the source of
pure doctrine” where there is ” your greatest safety ” from false teachings , because, ” their
teachings reflect the will of the Lord.” All these quotes have come through Mormon
publications. It’s no different with doctors . If a doctor is a nice person who treats his
family well, who is involved in helping the poor, yet who has complied a pattern of errors
in surgery or in counseling on medical issues that have had a direct adverse effect on the
lives on people who trusted his professional credentials , what do you do about this ?
You dismiss him from your life and find a more reliable doctor. God expects you to do this
with any doctor and also any prophet. The Mormon people simply do not need their leaders
authority in their lives. These men have become detours , as it were, in causing sincere LDS
to embrace “truths” that depart from what God has given in His Word, this is displeasing to
God. It breaks His heart to see good people being led astray by men claiming they speak for
Him, but who are actually only producing the precepts of men , their own reasoning .
This very thread topic is not taken seriously by many Mormons simply because they trust
their leaders on this money issue. False prophets love this kind of submission .
Trust ?
In looking thru some of the old copies of the Utah Evangel, a monthly publication of
Utah Missions that dealt with everything Mormon from newspaper articles around
the nation, I ran across the following article :
” Utahns have lost more than 200million in recent years through investment fraud, much
of it designed to take advantage of Mormons, according to a Utah state task force, reports
the Washington Post, Dec.25, 1984. The report said Mormons, ” are particularly susceptible
to various schemes ” and the report stated that the schemes are usually perpetrated by other
Mormons. This has become so wide spread that the state has been called the ‘ stock-fraud
Capital of the Nation ‘ . ….. Utah’s Governor appointed the task force . Victims reported they
depended more on the person presenting the scheme rather than on the offer itself. …..The
article quotes the report as saying ‘ people invest with members of their church without
bothering to check into things ‘ . ”
This report also mentioned how perpetrators would say that ” Elder so and so ” is a part of
this offer , etc. this serves as a successful deception. What do we learn from this ? Are
Mormons stupid people? Not at all. Other church people have been deceived like this also.
However the odds of being deceived rise dramatically if a person simply trusts a religious
leader claims ( especially if it is a spiritual issue ) and refuses to check things out. May the
Mormon people who read this thread pause and decide to check the claims of their leaders,
and also concerning where the money goes– 1 Thess 5:21
Mike R.
I’ve heard about this. Let’s ask ourselves why these folks are so easily scammed? We could start with their propensity for believing whatever sounds like a sincere story. I would guess they are also really feeling good about the opportunity. There’s a naivety here that isn’t child-like. It’s a type of immaturity.
Sometimes cons work well because people are greedy. There’s a great movie from the 60s with George C. Scott called “The Flim Flam Man”. The young guy who takes up with the con man has his faith in humanity destroyed as he witnesses the inherit greed in people and their desire to get rich quick.
I think there’s a current that runs through Mormonism where by Mormons want to be rich and successful, be respected and be on the top rung of the social and economic ladder that brings respect in the Mormon culture.
As a side note to the “unpaid” clergy. I have a friend who lives in a pretty strong Mormon area and has been told by the bishop that he has a steady stream of Mormon church members on his door step. Many come bearing gifts for him and his family. I don’t know what this amounts to but it’s a good source of untaxable income.
Falcon,
I think the more a person elevates feelings as the barometer in evaluating truth claims
the easier it is to be deceived, whether it’s concerning financial issues or spiritual issues.
When religious leaders make the authoritative claim that they offer the approved channel
of communication through which God speaks to His people, then this claim needs to be
evaluated not by the assurance of a feeling, a inner conviction, but by seeing what God’s Word
says. False prophets crave a situation where people trust them based on a subjective
experience , and it’s the false prophet who has revealed this method of evaluating their
message in the first place ! It’s disheartening to see the Mormon people think that they
have found ” the mouthpiece of God ” and yet be reluctant to evaluate his organization’s
claims of having no paid clergy. Is this claim really a sign of the one true church ? That’s
a lofty claim. Where does the money go ? Who gets what and how much ? Are Mormons
reluctant to ask the hard questions on this because they might be accused of a ” lack of faith” ?
False prophets can intimate their followers in subtle ways. May the Mormon people put their
leaders to the test —1 Thess.5:21
Facts, not speculation or manipulated evidence: Smiling.
1). Famous Salamander Letter, Elder Hinckley saw this on Jan. 3, 1984.
2). It appeared to be a letter from Martin Harris to W.W. Phelps
3). Letter from Harris claimed that a spirit transfigured himself from a white salamander
4). It was also fodder for the enemies of the Church who claimed that it disproved the whole Book
of Mormon.
5). April 1985, the printing of the full letter in the Church News the same month that the Church
officially acquired the letter. Hardly a cover up.
6). President Hinckley affirmed that “We have nothing to hide” (Sheri L. Dew, The Biography of
Gordon B. Hinckley, Deseret Book, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1996, p. 427).
7). “No one, of course, can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document. However, at this point
we accept the judgment of the examiner that there is no indication that it is a forgery. This does
not preclude the possibility that it may have been forged at a time when the Church had many
enemies. Same reference (Biography)
8). President Hinckley affirmed that the letter did not undermine the Church or Church history. He remained confident and firm in his stance, in spite of the heavy assault of the media and critics of the Church. He said the Church “will weather every storm that beats against it. It will outlast every critic who rises to mock it. It carries the name of Him whose it is, even the Lord Jesus Christ” (Church News, June 30, 1985, as cited by Dew, p. 428). Those were prophetic words.
9). The Church showed remarkable openness in allowing the documents to be published and even in giving one important document to a competing organization.
10). That troublesome document, rather than being suppressed or destroyed, was publicly given to the Reorganized Church. (That Joseph Smith son was blessed to be next in line to be Prophet of the Church.) ( “successor to the Presidency of the High Priesthood,”)
11). Joshua and other prophets have been fooled by less sophisticated frauds. If you reject him by that standard, prophets of the Bible also must be rejected.
Of course then we have our favorite critics, ex-mormons http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon322.htm who have nothing better to do then pass along old talking points that help them justify why they feel vindicated for leaving the truth, COJCOLDS to something that is truly fraudulent, Apostate Christianity, and there fraudulent voted on Creeds; originated out of the minds of men. Smiling happily. 🙂
Mike R.
I’m trying to wrap my brain around a religious concept, in this dispensation, that says you have to have a prophet that reveals things to you and the rest of the tribe and whom you have to follow unquestionably. It’s a good deal for the prophets of Mormonism because they can’t be questioned, only obeyed.
I’m full speed a head when it comes to spiritual gifts and the five fold ministry of the Holy Spirit, but to blindly follow men who claim to be prophets is not a wise thing to do.
Mormons fork their money over to their leadership who demands that they do so. After they comply with this demand they are not allowed to question how the money is used or to ask for an accounting of it. They are to only obey and follow the leaders because, as Mormons believe, their leaders will never lead them astray. What mindless idiocy.
The track record of the Mormon prophets in spiritual matters is dismal. The demands for money by these same leaders is driven by greed in my opinion. Mormons allow themselves to be controlled because they believe they have a witness and testimony from God that the BoM is true. The result of that testimony is to unquestionably and in all timidity, follow the leadership.
Questioning one’s spiritual experience is a tough line to cross for Mormons. If God didn’t in fact provide them with a physical emotional experience which testifies to the truthfulness of Mormonism then just exactly what was that experience?
Mormons are trapped between evidence that Mormonism is a false religion and their personal emotional experiences that they mistakenly suppose was a message from God testifying to the truth of the religion. To question it then becomes a very confusing matter.
Mike R.
I’m going to provide a link here for the video of this past week’s TV show “The Heart of the Matter”.
http://hotm.tv/
I don’t know if the link will work but if not a person can go to YouTube and watch the testimony of a man named Earl Erskine. The shorter version is on YouTube and can be accessed quickly from a search on that site.
Earl has been a Mormon for sixty years, served in the bishopric and has served as a bishop in the LDS church. He currently holds a temple recommend.
Earl is on an interesting spiritual journey that began a few years ago when he began to study the Bible intensely. He also decided to study the BoM more intensely going back to the original 1832 edition.
I find these voyages of discovery fascinating. Earl’s is all the more intriguing since it is quite fresh and new from a personal perspective.
Taking personal charge of one’s spirituality is a bold step for Mormons who are more accustomed to having to fall in line with conventional (Mormon) thinking and look to “prophets” and other leaders for guidance rather than head out on their own guided by God’s Word and His Holy Spirit.
Helen,
What’s your point?
I’ll make this real simple for you. Your prophets wanted the documents because they thought they were true. That’s it.
I don’t much care what they intended to do with the documents whether hide them next to Joe’s magic rock or publish them in one of the church magazines.
Your prophets have zero ZERRRRRRRRRO discernment and that can be applied to you also.
Mark Hofmann scammed them and you’re getting scammed by your prophets.
You have a real bad habit Helen of setting up strawmen so you can knock them down and ignoring the point. Your prophets and apostles used church money to buy worthless documents because their spiritual gifts are worthless.
Your holy revelation is letting you down Helen. 🙂 🙂 🙂
Feel free to try again but everyone on this board has your number. You’re not down at the wards now Helen where any explanation is readily accepted by folks who don’t bother to question their prophets or fellow members for that matter.
🙂 🙂 🙂
Helen, I’m trying to figure out why you would take so much time in trying to defend
your leaders concerning how they were misled by their spiritual witness in evaluating
Mark Hoffman’s behavior ; and yet you still have’nt answered the questions on polygamy
and the Book of Mormon. I’ve watched how you ignore pertinent questions. Then could
you to ask your leadership’s permission to look into the financial records they keep from
faithful members? This would be a great way to avoid any speculation and at the same time
provide some facts , as you stated above . Thanks
Falcon, take a deep breath, all I did was give you some other light and knowledge. No one is expecting you to study it out for yourself, even though that would be a first. Apparently your “Holy Discernment” has kicked in again and telling you that evil Helen should be shrouded and not taken seriously. I know everyone appears to have my number, but if you look behind yourself and see who is answering all your neglected questions, (verse 30) you will only see they are all Orthodox Christians posting on a “against Mormons” forum.
Smiling back at you , by the way, mercy from Heaven what ever happened too Shawn McCraney , that video posted by you is not doing poor Shawn any favors. He use to be a really handsome clean cut guy. Maybe he was just having a bad hair day and forgot to shave, or is this his new look, egads.