Do LDS members feel married to the Mormon religion, irrespective of whether it is true? Or put this way: If you found out that Mormonism was false, would you still feel married to the religion and that going elsewhere would be a kind of religious adultery?
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I’ve mentioned that I was listening to a podcast/interview done with John Dehlin of “Mormon Stories” fame on another site called “Mormon Expressions”. I could tell that although John has figured out that Mormonism is false, he still has emotional ties to the culture and the people. He was suggesting that they should have a “Mormon-palooza” every year bringing together Mormons who are across the spectrum in regard to the religion. I thought that one of the comments by one of the people conducting the interview was interesting. He said that from his experience, those leaving Mormonism go through an 18 month leaving process and after that most don’t want anything to do with Mormonism. His point to John was, “Who would come to this event?”
I left the Catholic Church 45 years ago. Although at my core I still have a lot of Catholic, I don’t feel any particular allegiance to the religion. I’m ambivalent I guess.
Interesting question Aaron, if I may ask what made you think of it?
When I left Mormonism I didn’t have any feelings like that. Even now that I have returned to the LDS faith I still love to go to other religious services. I didn’t feel like I was “cheating” in the least, and still don’t today.
Falcon,
Speaking of “Mormon Expressions” thanks for turning me onto this program. It’s thought provoking and hilarious.
TJayT,
Be careful not to let any TBMs know you’re listening to those podcasts. We use to call that “The Radio Underground” back in my hippie college days of the 1960s.
I don’t quite know how to characterize what “type” of Mormon you are. If you are New Order or a Social Mormon, I wonder how you folks can survive in the Mormon system without getting the boot. I obviously have zero experience in the Mormon system so I don’t know how much of a radical a person can be. I’ve heard it said that in Mormonism you can believe whatever you want, you just can’t teach it. But I guess it would also depend what part of the country you live in and how much pressure there is on you to conform. For example, I would guess that at a place like BYU the pressure to conform must be pretty severe.
falcon,
“I don’t quite know how to characterize what “type” of Mormon you are.”
I didn’t know there were Mormon “types” until stumbling onto Mormon Coffee. Seriously, When I was a Mormon, I thought we were all the same and believed all the same stuff. After all, the LDS church is the “one true church” with the “one true teachings.” We were all taught out of the same teaching manuals. I would be interested in discussing this with some of my LDS family. I’ll bet they are also clueless as to Mormon “types.” Either that or it’s just not something that is ever discussed. When I was a believing Mormon, I didn’t so much feel married to the church, but I did have fear of losing my Salvation if I ever questioned it. I believed the mantra “The church is perfect, but the people are not.” What a let down to realize that the church isn’t perfect either. All of these Mormon types are really interesting to me. I didn’t realize I could just believe anything I wanted! Oh as long as I didn’t tell anyone else what I believed….. I think in Utah the pressure to conform is greater than for those LDS living in other States. In Utah, you’re either in the click or you aren’t.
TJayT,
I can’t figure you out 🙂 You enjoy attending other religious services? When I was LDS, attending another religious service was almost taboo LOL! It’s funny how 2 people can research the same stuff, one holds onto it and stays and the other can’t get out fast enough.
Kate,
I guess I feel like an FBI profiler but being able to categorize people is a real asset in speaking to their particular situation and needs. Of course there are social Mormons, New Order Mormons and the infamous “Jack” Mormons.
Jim Spencer goes into detail about this in his book “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately”. He talks about the “true believer”, the “moderate believer” and the “doubter”. Jim further breaks it down to the “arrogant true believer”, the “naive true believer”, the “uninterested moderate believer”, the “interested moderate believer”, and finally the “closet doubter” and the “open doubter”.
Each of these have their own particular attitude. For example the “arrogant true believer” is convinced that he’s a member of the Only True Church, and he has never encountered serious challenge to his faith. He does not readily listen to anything. He may be brash. He is so convinced of his position that he pities those who are not Mormons. He disdains non-Mormons as stupid if they don’t immediately submit to Mormonism’s gospel, and he’s not above ridiculing those who disagree with him. He has never seriously considered that Mormonism is wrong.
By contrast the “open doubter” has dropped his pretensions. He is fed up with defending the Mormon church. He is nearly certain it is false or at least so full of flaws as to be unredeemable.
Jim says that we need to be aware of their commitment to the organization. Only then can we determine how best to deal with them.
When you think of it, this only makes sense. In the years I’ve been on this blog we’ve seen a steady stream of Arrogant True Believers and Naive True Believers. Doubters don’t post here but I have the feeling that they come here to read.
Kate,
Here’s what the New Order Mormons have to say about themselves. They sound like the type Aaron is talking about.
“New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.”
They further say, “The LDS Church claims to be the “only true church,” creating the perception that the Church is either all true or all false. This black-or-white dichotomy makes many members feel they have to leave the Church entirely after being exposed to new information.”
Mormonism, it seems, has an unusual amount of turmoil. I think this is especially true of the Salt Lake City brand of the religion. I don’t know exactly how these New Order folks exist within the structure of the SLC church. Perhaps geographic location has a lot to do with how tolerant the (local) Mormon authorities are.
You can imagine what a pain someone like Sandra Tanner was at her local ward when she began to research and question the Mormon church. I don’t know if someone is more apt to get excommunicated because of a moral failing as opposed to disagreements regarding doctrine and knowledge of Mormon history and particularly its founder Joseph Smith. Once the bloom comes off of the Joseph Smith rose, I imagine it’s pretty difficult to continue in the church…….unless of course for social and family reasons.
Though I have never personally been in the position, I give the following thoughts based on my experience and empathy with LDS people:
Considering the extent to which the LDS religion/culture infuses every part of an active member’s life, it is not hard to imagine the difficulty of leaving it – whether just in principle or mentally and physically. To the extent to which your family, friends, and everyday life are part of and full of mormonism, it would be difficult to “cut all ties” with mormonism. This is why many ex or post-mormons react so strongly to finding out that they have been deceived. Without even touching on the truth or falsehood of the religion, just the idea that every part of oneself and one’s world is largely built on at least partial truths (if not complete fabrication) is not so much the greatest betrayal, but a betrayal of the highest magnitude. You find yourself in a sort of reverse Truman Show – it’s not just you who is manipulated and lied to about everything around you, but also your friends and family and everyone you have admired personally.
This also may explain any accuracy to this question of married to a religion. How one is connected to the very people that make it up, whether in admiration of authorities, love of family/friends, or just familiarity with all of your associates. It is difficult to turn your back on so much. It is sort of religion-world confusion. For the LDS, to turn completely away from the religion is, too often, to turn away from all your friends family, associates, and honored personalities, all the basis and meaning of everything you hold meaningful, including the self you thought you knew.
It’s for this reason that I think it understandable why too many LDS end up atheists. I’m obviously just hypothesizing, but unless an ex-mormon completely self-reevaluates, there are bound to be many deep subconscious beliefs that they are not even aware are influencing them from mormonism’s pov still. If you have truly believed that LDS is the “one true church”, then, unless you reevaluate where you got that belief, what reasons you justified that belief by, and where you got those reasons, you may still act from that belief, but refuted by the evidence of its falsehood. So you have someone who, for whatever LDS influenced reasons over their lifetime, still believes that the LDS church was the one (and only possible) true church, upon finding out that it is false, they are left with nothing. Unless you reevaluate why you believed that no other church was true, you may never escape the influence and determination of LDS beliefs.
I can see this as being confused for God’s existence and thus they become atheists. Another way, I think they can get to atheism, is by forced earthiness, forced reality, limitation of the LDS religion. This is difficult to express but I think there is something about the way that Joseph Smith et al. and mormonism has and continues to try to make God understood that makes it inevitable that one would believe He doesn’t exist, when you find out LDS is not true.
Going back to the unreevaluated foundational beliefs of all your consciousness – if you have always accepted that God was understandable and that the LDS Church was the source of that understandability, then, when you find out LDS is false, you might subconsciously jump to the conlcusion that “God” is false too.
This is getting at another aspect of LDS that I don’t think I have heard discussed before. I know there are exceptions to this, if this is true at all, but it seems like there isn’t a lot of mystery to the LDS religion.And what is unknown is not spoken of, let alone celebrated.
As opposed to Christianity, that acknowledges and celebrates the ultimately unknowable mystery of the nature of God, the incarnation, God’s mercy, grace, love, the profundity of His Holiness and thus the irrefutable nature of ANY sin is beyond our understanding, it seems like LDS largely ignore or deny these things. “God is not infinite and spirit (read ineffable)-He has a body just like us!” “God isn’t so Holy that we can’t be worthy of Him no matter what we do-we just have to do everything (on the Bishop’s questi0n list) right!” “Jesus became a god without living a mortal life and the Holy Ghost is a god without ever having a body at all?-Well, we won’t talk about that.”
I don’t mean to be sarcastic, this is just a quick way to show possible ways that the LDS religion downplays mystery and the infinite and completely-beyond-human-understanding nature and ways of God. A healthy sense of the way that we neither fully or even practically “grasp” God allows Christians to seperate what they think about and believe and consider for belief and the Actual God Who Is that they direct themselves toward in pray, commitment, devotion, worship, etc.
So if I am at all right about this downplay/refutation of the mystery of God in LDS religion, then it becomes more likely that an ex-mormon with this subconscious belief in the knowability of God could get from LDS false to God false way too easily.
Falcon,
I’ll keep that in mind : ) Personally I prefer hearing arguments against Mormonism (and all faiths for that matter) from the Agnostic/Atheist side of the fence. It may be because I was out of Christianity for so long and am comfortable discussing faith with them. That and I usually feel like they have a more objective view since they don’t really have a pony in the race (so long as they aren’t militant atheists at any rate).
Kate,
I also have no idea what category of Mormon I would fall under. Thankfully that doesn’t bother me in the least since I’ve never fit in at any point in my life. I don’t mind not conforming now. It is funny to see how two people can see things differently. I don’t feel the need to look down on you, or anyone else, for leaving the LDS church.
spartacus
“It’s for this reason that I think it understandable why too many LDS end up atheists.”
I would argue that it’s because most (though not all) of the persuasive arguments I have heard against the LDS faith can be turned against all of Christianity in some way or another. But that’s just this single Mormons opinion.
spartacus,
Good summary of the entanglement that Mormons find in their lives. I would guess it is somewhat like the Amish, who when they leave, walk away from everything they know into a world of the unknown. The role that community plays in the life of an individual even if there are negatives attached to it, is immense.
TJay,
Yup, I hear you when you say that the arguments used against Mormonism can be used against Christianity or any religion for that matter.
There is one major distinction however. The claims of Joseph Smith as a prophet and his using of his position to defraud women and exploit them sexually in his group is more typical of a cult and cult leader. There are, of course, individual Christian leaders who do the same thing and cause people to lose faith by their actions but they aren’t typically held up as prophets who have produced new scripture. When found out they are dispatched and seen for what they are.
This isn’t true of Smith who the LDS church holds up as a paragon of virtue and near sinless perfection.
The other major difference is the over-whelming amount of evidence that all of Mormonism is untrue. The need for Mormons to hold on to their faith in the LDS church causes them to come up with all sorts of fantastic explanations that to outsiders are seen as cultic mind bending.
I read something on the New Order Mormon site that was published by the SLC church back in 2007. It basically said that just because a church leader proclaimed something, doesn’t make it doctrine. That’s really problematic for Mormonism since the whole basis for the faith is that they have some guy(s) who are hearing directly from the Mormon god and are relaying that information.
falcon,
I think I started out as a “naive true believer” then went to a “closet doubter” then onto the “open doubter” and finally just gave up and left LOL! I am going to have to Google this New Order Mormon thing. Interesting.
Spartacus,
I have a family member who is going through all of this now and he’s on his way to becoming an Athiest. He’s so angry that even when I have talked about my experience with him, his mind seems to just shut off. It’s sad. I was really angry too, but not like him. I didn’t have the religion forced on me as kid like he did. Well he had it forced on him until he left home. I don’t know if that is the difference or if he was a different “type” of Mormon than I was. I feel bad for those who give up on God altogether. That is the truly sad part of it, but I can see how it could happen.
TJayT,
Thanks for not judging me 🙂 I’m curious, how do you rationalize or deal with all of the information that is contradicting or just shoved under the rug? How do you make all of the different things said about God by different prophets, all line up and make sense to you? I could never get past that one.
Falcon,
I agree 100% that the LDS faith does have issues to deal with that Mainstream Christianity doesn’t. But the reverse is also true. Such is the way of religions and faith I suppose.
Kate,
To be honest the same way I rationalize and deal with the many doubts and arguments I believed and used against Christianity for nearly a decade. From the outside Christianity can look just as confusing, contradictory, and man made as any other religion. The answers to the doubts I once had haven’t changed, but my willingness to have faith that those answers are enough has. I don’t blame anyone for leaving Mormonism, just as I don’t really blame anyone for leaving Christianity behind when taking a hard and rational look at it. All I can do is what I feel I’m supposed to and look to God for where I’m supposed to be in my life.
TJay,
My main concern for you would be regarding your acceptance of who the Mormon prophets have said God is. Although there are other issues regarding Mormonism, the doctrine of the nature of God is the most serious. Looking at the Bible and the tradition of both the Jewish and Christian faith regarding monotheism, Mormonism isn’t any where on the spectrum of Christianity.
So my concern is that you are endorsing a religion that acknowledges millions perhaps billions of gods and teaches that if men follow the Utah based LDS path, they too will become gods. The Mormon Jesus is also not the Jesus that is revealed in the Bible. Therefore the Mormon Jesus isn’t the qualified Savior.
My concern is regarding your salvation and the status of your soul. The Bible clearly teaches One God and One mediator between God and mankind and that is Jesus.
Mormonism has an entirely different God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and plan of salvation.
It’s interesting that you’ve chosen to continue in Mormonism while other Mormons have become Christians or atheists. Interesting how people come to a decision point and choose different paths.
TJayT,
Falcon is spot on. This is why I asked you how you deal with all that has been revealed about God by LDS prophets. I’ve come to the conclusion recently that if one doesn’t have God right, the rest doesn’t even matter. Mormons want to be called Christians, but do not believe in the Christian God. That is so weird to me. Pres. Hinkley said that the Christ of whom they (Christians) speak is not the Christ of whom he speaks ( I can give a reference if you need it) this is a HUGE red flag because Christ himself said that there would arise many false Christs. The Mormon Christ obviously can not Save you himself (and by Save I mean Heaven living with God again). He only steps in “after all you can do.” How does one know for sure if he/she is doing enough? How wonderful to know that I am Saved by the Blood of the true Christian Christ, not for what I can do, but by my faith in him. Does that mean I am free to sin all I want? Absolutely not. I was taught that this is what Christians believe. It’s so not true. Christians do good works to glorify God. This is one difference I find between Mormons and Christians. Christians put God first and live by the works he laid out before hand, they don’t do good works to earn their own way. God is first and foremost. I don’t know if you have been through the LDS temple, but if you have, think about who/what you consecrate everything to. Is it God? No, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
TJay,
Mike R is consistent in pointing out that the Mormon prophets are not reliable guides as to what God reveals to us about himself. I acknowledge Mike in this regards because his message can’t be repeated enough.
So this topic really is, “Who can be trusted to tell us/reveal to us who God is?” When I was in the school business, before kind of retiring, part of my job was to function as the school district’s assessment director. In this role I had to be sure that the tests, screenings and assessments that we used were valid and reliable. Validity tells us if the test actually assesses what it says it does. Reliability is whether or not the instrument gives consistent results.
I think the same criteria can be applied to anyone claiming to be a prophet speaking for God. The absolute worst test is how a person feels about it. That is, if I feel good about the person they are a prophet and if I don’t they aren’t. The idea with the “feelings” approach is that our emotions serve as a communication receptor from God.
Granted the more experience I had in my job the more of an innate sense I would get regarding the accuracy of the results of the tests and measurements. But this “feel” had to do with experience and training and not much with actual emotions.
I’ve tested the Mormon prophets and found them to be lacking in both validity and reliability. I could make a long list here of why I have concluded that. Suffice to say, after years of studying (Christian) Church history and doctrine and a lot of experience in the Pentecostal world, even a cursory examination of those who claim to be Mormon prophets is enough to label them as false.
Falcon,
It’s very true that Mormons aren’t Monotheistic. As I understand it we are Monolatralists or Henotheistic depending on the a Mormons personal view. But Christians aren’t true Monotheists either. Just ask a Jew or Muslim. And your correct about us not being “Christian”. We’re only Christian in the secular dictionary definition of the word.
True that we believe we’ll become gods, since in Mormon theology humans share the same uncreated essence as God. I don’t believe in an infinite regression doctrine personally. And of course I do believe whole heartedly that I follow the Jesus of the Bible. We differ in interpretations of the Bible of course, and so think I know where and why you disagree with me.
I went through my own decade of Anti-Christian sentiment. Faith is a funny thing though, I’ll agree with you there.
I also respect Mike R. He and I have talked both here and on another blog. I disagree with his assessments, just as I’m sure you would disagree with those that consistently point out that Jesus was a false messiah, or that God is false. Faiths a funny thing as I said before, unless one is unhappy in there faith there’s a pretty good chance we’ll find explanations for just about anything the critics have to say.
Falcon (cont)
But sadly religion isn’t something that one can just put a standardized test to and know absolute truth. If it where then it would be easy for all of us to come to the same conclusion and have one religion. There must be faith at some point, or the only tenable position becomes Atheism imo. One must have some sort of “supernatural experience” in order to begin there faith. Whether that’s feelings or visions or just simply knowing that something is true without any rational reason behind it (Another kind of feeling perhaps?). (Cont)
Falcon (Cont)
I can’t lie and say I have years of studying Christian and Mormon history, but I’m chugging along. So far I have been able to make peace with everything I’ve learned about the LDS faith, and find Mainstream Christianity lacking for me. That said I’ve learned a great many things and many of my preconceived notions and caricatures of both sides have changed.
Kate
I’ve read the article. He actually says Mormons don’t believe in the Traditional Christ, speaking on the doctrine of the Trinity. He went on in the next few sentences to say;
“Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I’m trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.” (Cont)
Kate(Cont)
The Mormon Christ obviously can not Save you himself (and by Save I mean Heaven living with God again). He only steps in “after all you can do.” How does one know for sure if he/she is doing enough? How wonderful to know that I am Saved by the Blood of the true Christian Christ, not for what I can do, but by my faith in him. Does that mean I am free to sin all I want? Absolutely not. I was taught that this is what Christians believe. It’s so not true. Christians do good works to glorify God. This is one difference I find between Mormons and Christians. Christians put God first and live by the works he laid out before hand, they don’t do good works to earn their own way. God is first and foremost. I don’t know if you have been through the LDS temple, but if you have, think about who/what you consecrate everything to. Is it God? No, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I really don’t want to make this into a Faith vs. Works debate. But I will say that I’m as sure I will be with God and Christ in the Celestial Kingdom as you are you sure you’re saved. I have absolutely no doubt, none, that I am saved by the grace of God and the blood of Christ. There is no doubt in my mind that my faith has done this and that if I where to die this instant I would be saved and be in paradise. It’s true that there are some Mormons that don’t believe this, and it saddens me. But that doesn’t change the fact that I know I’m saved, and know where I’m going.
TJay,
So the bottom line is that you believe that those in the Mormon church who call themselves “prophets” are indeed hearing from “God” and are therefore reliable in terms of telling you who (God) is and what His plan of salvation entails.
It-seems-to-me that just about any religion will then do it for you. I can point to numerous “prophets” over the last 2,000 years including many living today who are at least on the same level of the Mormon prophets. So why pick the Mormon prophets? Joseph Smith popped-up a couple of hundred years ago, with his magic rock in hand, and declared that he had a “restored gospel” that had been lost and now it had been revealed to him. There’s several problems with this, not the least of course is that there is no Biblical or historical evidence that Mormonism in all its progressive forms, ever existed (before Smith).
I guess if you want to embrace it that’s your deal but there’s so many problems with the religion, Smith, the LDS religious system and the prophets that it takes more than faith to do it. It’s really a case of suspending credulity.
One-last-thing, I’d argue with you regarding your statement that you follow the Jesus of the Bible. I’d suggest you get the extensive writings of the Church Fathers and tell me if what they say about Jesus matches the LDS version.
TJayT,
“No I don’t believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.” ( Gordon B. Hinkley.)
The Christ he speaks of has been revealed in this dispensation. 2,000 years of belief in the traditional Christ down the toilet. Joseph Smith made up a new Christ. He is not the Christ of the Bible. He is the Mormon Christ. He is a Christ that the Christ of the Bible warns us about. Please show me in the Bible where the Mormon Christ is? Where does it say that Christ is our spirit brother and the spirit brother of Satan? Where in ANY ancient Christian writings is this Mormon Christ? Not every shred of evidence was “lost” there has to be something written somewhere, other than in LDS journals or publications. We have writings of Christ’s true Apostles. None of them mention anything remotely similar to the Mormon Christ. Do they lie? Read John 1:1-3. Is it a lie? Does it say anything at all that resembles the Mormon Christ? I don’t see how it could. Christ couldn’t possibly have been in the beginning with God in Mormonism because God would have had to procreate him first.
“I really don’t want to make this into a Faith vs. Works debate.’
This isn’t my point. My point is the difference of how the Christian Christ Saves and how the Mormon Christ Saves. The Mormon Christ can’t Save (Heaven live with God) by himself. He needs your help. If he didn’t need the help of man, there would be no need for Baptism for the dead right? Mormonism mocks the true Christ.
TJayT,
Pres. Hinkley does go on to say that he is a Christian. How? Anyone can make up a version of Christ that isn’t Traditional and taught for 2,000 years. Let’s say someone has it revealed to them that Christ is a two headed dragon, and then insists on being called a Christian. Are they truly a Christian? Just because they made up something and called it Christ? To me a Christian is someone who believes in the Christian God and the teachings and doctrines of Christianity. A Mormon is someone who believes in the Mormon gods and the doctrines and teachings of Mormonism. Why do Mormons INSIST on being called Christians when they clearly are not? The dictionary may say that a Christian is someone who believes in Christ, but it’s a whole lot more than that and you know it 🙂
TJayT,
I swear I didn’t type that first comment twice! Not sure what happened there.
TjayT, I respect you as well . I appreciate the fact that you read the Bible , and take
it to be a serious part of your life in defining significant doctrines you embrace . One
thing that I’ve learned over the years is that a person stays in the Mormon Church for
several reasons. They need the emotional support it provides with all the activities it
offers or perhaps the organizational structure it provides etc. I also know that a person
who is searching for God , that God can meet them right where they are and become real
in their life even if this happens from hearing the basic message about Jesus from a
Mormon etc. But sooner or later that person is going to be faced with additional
teachings from Mormon authorities , teachings about God and Jesus , about Temple
rituals, about authoritative claims . Then a choice has to be made because now there
is accountability . Because Jesus is not the spirit brother of Satan , because God is not
a married man who had to be married in order to become who He is today , because
secret handshakes and names are said to be sacred Gospel truths , etc all these are
“another gospel ” , as such the peril of embracing it and of giving allegiance to those
who created it constitutes being led astray . The Bible speaks of this danger and also
offers the way out . So I would extend to you the offer to come all the way home to
Jesus. Experience a life with Him free from the presence of men who ask for your
allegiance twice a year in Conf. May God bless you in seeking Him.
Tjay,
I’m trying to piece together your personal narrative based on what you’ve told us and it seems to me that you kind of pushed the “default” religion button in your life. You’ve told us you don’t have a testimony of the BoM which is interesting and I take it you know that the BoA is a total bogus flim flam that exposes the fact that Joseph Smith was working on mysteries without any clues.
So you picked Mormonism because of its familiarity and because no protestant religion really flipped your switch. Now you’re kind of putting together a religious belief system dismissing those things about Mormonism that you know are totally false and integrating some Mormon thoughts regarding the nature of God with a few other things to come up with a sort of composite set of religious beliefs.
Quite frankly, I couldn’t do that. Where your missing the boat, if I may say so, is when it comes to the reliability of the Mormon prophets. It’s not a case of prophets having some interesting things to share and and a person eliminating the obvious false and down-right stupid “revelations” they come up with.
Given what you’re doing, you can be your own prophet and create your own religion much like Joseph Smith did. You’re at least as bright. I don’t know how creative you are but I’ll bet given your enthusiasm you could gather some folks about you.
I would suggest you spend some time and effort studying the first four hundred years of Christianity. There were all sorts of guys coming up with their own version of what they thought was the truth and it was against these speculators that the Church Fathers fought.
But my guess is that you’re having a good time sort of being the Mormon Shock Jock.
Falcon
Yes I do believe the LDS prophets are as reliable as sinful and imperfect men can be. Any religion that I felt the spirit of God call me to would do, yes. But not simply any old religion. I’m currently reading Early Christian Writings on this website http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html so I am trying to learn more about early Christian history.
Anyone that wants to know my full re-conversion story can email me at [email protected] and I’ll gladly discuss the whole thing in detail. I just think it would take longer then the six post maximum we have here.
I never said that I don’t have a testimony of the BoM. I said I’ve never prayed about it. I never felt the need to pray about it, just like I never felt the need when it came to the Bible. Of all the churches I’ve been to and studied I’ve felt the truth most clearly from Salt Lake Mormonism. While I don’t believe that the QA’s have a giant red phone to God and so they aren’t always 100% correct about interrupting his will I do believe them on many if not most things.
Mormonism isn’t really that familiar to me. I spent the majority of my active religious life as a Buddhist with Taoist and Nietzschen philosophical tendencies (and yes I know they really shouldn‘t mix). I find many of those ideas far more familiar to me, especially the idea of a Pantheistic God. Just because I was born LDS didn’t mean I really knew anything about doctrine, especially since I was raised in an inactive family for the most part. (Cont)
I don’t know exactly what you meant by my wanting to be a Mormon Shock Jock, but as to your suggestion that I go make up my own religion, been there and done that for the better part of a decade (though I had no followers and never wanted any). I have no desire to go down that dark road again. But I’m still a free thinker, not a sheep. If I see something that I disagree with then I’m going to study it and come to my own conclusions. If you feel that’s me just making my own stuff up as I go along so be it. Doesn’t really hurt my feelings.
Kate
When it comes to exactly what Jesus is I can’t lie. We see him very differently. But I would argue that my view of who he is I think we are pretty close. To me it’s like if I tried to explain who you are to someone. I’ve never seen you before, but when I talk to you I have a picture of a person in my head (don’t know if I’m weird that way). If we continued to talk for awhile I may be able to learn a lot about you, your family, your habits, beliefs and so on. But if I actually tried to explain what you look like I’m sure I’d be way off. For all I know you’re a two headed dragon, but that doesn’t change who you are. Same with Christ. As to being called a Christian you may want to look at is Spartacus and my conversation here http://blog.mrm.org/2012/01/can-a-christian-believe-the-father-is-a-great-pumpkin-in-the-sky/#comments. Especially the last few posts.
Mike R
Thanks for the compliments 🙂
My first post is still in mod jail, so it should make more sense once it shows up.
TJayT,
I’m sure my family would tell you that some days I am a two headed dragon LOL! Seriously though, we need to believe in the true and living Christ. Not any old Christ will do. Jesus himself warn us that there will arise many false Christs. This tells me that I should be on the look out and question any Christ who doesn’t fit with the Christ of the Bible. We are to test all things against the Word of God. If it doesn’t fit, it’s to be rejected. If we don’t have God right then nothing else matters. If we don’t have his Son right, then nothing else matters. I don’t want to stand before Jesus and have him tell me that He never knew me, even though I swore that I followed a “version” of him. Mormonism’s version of Christ does not fit with the Word of God. It’s serious stuff.
You said: “When it comes to exactly what Jesus is I can’t lie. We see him very differently. But I would argue that my view of who he is I think we are pretty close.”
Pretty close to what? Absolutely not the Bible. Absolutely not Christianity. Mormonism’s Christ isn’t in any ancient writings or teachings. At least you have the integrity to stand up and say we have different Christs’. I respect you for that, we may not agree on anything, but I do respect you for your honesty.
TJayT,
Ha ha ha! I just took the time to read your back and forth posts to Spartacus. I love bat crap crazy whack job!!! Thanks for the laugh. You said in one of your posts that: “We can argue who are the “real” Christians (however you define that) but when it comes to what Mormons are trying to get across that doesn’t even enter there mindset.”
I STRONGLY disagree with this. Mormons are all to eager to scream out that they are they ONLY true Christians. All Christendom fell into apostasy and all was lost. Christianity and all Christians are an abomination to God according to every Mormon I know. I too believed this because I was taught this from birth. There’s not a “real” Christian anywhere except in the LDS church. Funny how the other sects of Mormonism claim the same thing. All other sects claim the Salt Lake City branch are apostates and don’t have the truth, just as the Salt Lake City branch claims all other Mormon sects are apostate. This is a little off topic but the fact that Joseph Smith’s family, including his Mother followed James Strang and not Brigham Young is very interesting to me. I may have to do further research on this.