The topic of “Mormon folklore” seems to be a popular one right now, following on the heels of the racially offensive comments made by BYU Professor Randy Bott last week (see “Did the Mormon Church ever discriminate against black people?” on Mormon Coffee). As Mormons scramble to try to distance the LDS Church from its past, over and over they tell the world that the things taught by now-gone Mormon leaders regarding the priesthood ban–and about black people in a broader sense–amounts to nothing more than “folklore,” “speculation” and mere “opinion.” In an official statement the LDS Church said,
“It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church [i.e., the ban against blacks holding the priesthood] but what is clear is that it ended decades ago. Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine.”
The use of the that’s-not-official-that’s-just-his-opinion defense among Mormons is not limited to the priesthood ban. For example, if you were to tell a Mormon that LDS apostle Orson Pratt taught that the Virgin Mary was the lawful wife of God the Father, or that Brigham Young taught that interracial marriage between Caucasians and Africans would forever carry a penalty, under the law of God, of death on the spot, more often than not you would hear, “That’s not official. That’s just his opinion.” (Sources for the teachings cited: Orson Pratt, The Seer, 158; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:110. See also John Lewis Lund’s The Church and the Negro, 1967, 54.)
In an article addressing this common Mormon objection to many early LDS teachings, Vincent McCann from Spotlight Ministries makes some good points. He notes several reasons Mormons cannot really rest in the idea that “official” Mormonism is only found in the Standard Works of the Church:
- The absence of doctrines essential to Mormonism in the Standard Works makes it necessary for Mormons to accept so-called “unofficial” sources as authoritative
- Statements from LDS leaders indicating the unequivocal authority of their teachings as the very word of God
- The current/ongoing official LDS Church pronouncements that the inspired words of living prophets “become scripture” to Latter-day Saints (Mr. McCann cites an older edition of Gospel Principles; in the current edition the teaching can be found on page 48)
One point Mr. McCann makes is often overlooked by Latter-day Saints. That is, Mormons who want to downgraded the doctrinal teachings of past prophets to mere “folklore” generally fail to consider the effect these teachings had on real people who believed their Mormon prophets. Mr. McCann writes,
“Although many Mormons do not view other LDS writings as official Scripture (for example, The Seer or The Journal of Discourses), it should be remembered that many of these writings consist of the words of very prominent leaders in the Mormon Church. As such individuals commanded great respect they were certainly influential over the rank and file. Their statements must have carried some weight. Mormon leaders in prominent positions, like Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and Bruce R. McConkie, influenced those who looked to them for leadership. The words of these early LDS leaders did not just go out into a vacuum, they went [into] the hearts and minds of the Mormon people and were incorporated into their beliefs.”
Therefore, when Mormon leaders taught people born with dark skin were reaping punishment for premortal behavior, Mormons then treated these people as an “inferior race.”
When Mormon leaders taught Adam was God, Mormons then worshiped a false god.
When Mormon leaders taught that polygamy was required for gaining eternal life, Mormons then submitted to behaviors contrary to biblical teaching.
When Mormon leaders taught that people must atone for some sins with their own blood, Mormons then “helped” those they believed needed to shed their blood (e.g., the Mountain Meadows Massacre).
If Mormons want to say certain LDS teachings were merely the non-authoritative personal opinions of the men who taught them, these Latter-day Saints must come to grips with the fact that these so-called prophets, while claiming to speak for God (but presumably knowing otherwise), led thousands of people astray.
Both options – that these teachings were mere (faulty) opinions or that these teachings were at one time official doctrines of the LDS Church – place a heavy burden on today’s Mormons to explain.
The truth is, these prophets (and their teachings) were untrue. They did not speak for God or represent Him in any way.
God calls us to turn away from false prophets:
“Thus says the Lord GOD: Repent and turn away from your idols, and turn away your faces from all your abominations… that [you] may be my people and I may be [your] God, declares the Lord GOD.” (Ezekiel 14: 6, 11)
May we all, at all times, heed God’s call.
—
For more information see “Pinning Down Mormon Doctrine” and “Disposable Doctrine.”
Just so I know you know the Word of God in the Bible:
What did God say would be forever in the OT that He later had Paul say was no longer in effect?
fred
Fred,
I’m just going to say that I really hope nobody answers you or replies to you. You keep dodging questions, if you reply to them it is with vague replies and no evidence, but then you keep asking questions. Why should we keep answering you when you refuse to answer us, and then after all the sources we Cite, insist we never do our research?
Sharon, this issue of trusting Mormon prophets to be reliable guides in spiritual truth
goes right to the heart of the matter because we are warned by Jesus and by those He
directed to preach His gospel that counterfeit prophets and apostles would come .
Mormons testify to us that they follow men who claim to be personally appointed,
directed, and supervised by Jesus to preach His gospel, a “restored” gospel
they say the vital truths of Jesus’ gospel as preached by apostles in the first century
were altered, revised, by corrupt men so spiritual darkness commenced and lasted for
1700 years until about 1830 when the gospel was restored by a modern-day prophet,
the first Mormon prophet. Because of this Mormons claim to be the true christians with
with the true gospel. This ministry (MRM) has been dedicated to shine the light of truth
on the claims of Mormonism and has helped multitudes of people to evaluate whether
Mormon prophets are trustworthy spiritual guides or not . For me I evaluated the
claims of Mormon prophets years ago. I compared what prophets/apostles taught
about God/Jesus/salvation in the Bible with what Mormon leaders taught on these
same doctrines. I looked at the first 100 yrs of the “restored ” gospel as taught by
Mormon leaders because those who knew the first prophet of this “restored gospel”
and/or were mentored by him lived in that time frame. ( from 1830’s- 1920 or so ,
this is not precise but it served it’s purpose to me ) . So the comparison was between
100 yrs of preaching by Jesus’ apostles in the N.T. and Mormon prophets/apostles.
The verdict: Much of what Mormon prophets taught was not directed by Jesus at all.
2Jn 9
Hey Mike,
I find it really sad that the LDS cannot even trust their own scriptures. We read in the BoM that John and 3 of his friends were to remain alive and preach the Gospel till Jesus returns. So how can we have a total apostasy and as you said, spiritual darkness for 1700 years or so if they were alive and preaching the gospel?
I have meet on MM in my life who claims he was friends with a friend who actually meet the Apostle John while serving on a missions trip in some foreign country. Also if the LDS prophets like BY and Orson Pratt and others taught things that were called Doctrine, and are no longer believed today then we have a problem because JS himself said, A man cannot be saved in ignorance. So are those prophets not saved? Or were they saved and the prophets now a days, are they the ones that have gone astray and are not saved and teaching false Doctrine?
Also Fred, I notice besides the fact you cannot answer questions which shows you never really did the research you claimed, but like a typical Mormon you must throw the Bible under the Bus and go after Gods Holy Word and say look, I wont answer any questions, I believe my Church is true, but yet since no one believes my church is true, Let me then dodge your question s and point out what I see as problems with the Word of God.
Who was the first person in the Bible to go after the Word of God? Satan was. Who now goes after the word of God? Everyone that is a child of his. Like Father, Like Son.
Yes Rick it is sad. There’s a great number of sincere Mormons in the last few years
that have seen all the problems created by their leaders and have started to look
elsewhere for trustworthy spiritual guides . As I mentioned , I evaluated these
modern day prophets’ gospel for myself, as I believe the apostle John advised me
too—1 Jn 4:1 ; 2Jn 9,10 ; or Peter: 2Pt.2:1 etc. My testimony is that the Mormon
people want to know God, but they have been detoured by their prophets into
embracing a counterfeit gospel . I personally can’t trust Mormon leaders to be
consistent in teaching accurately about who God is or what is necessary to be made
right with Him unto eternal life , as their track record since 1830 has produced a
unstable pattern in teachings relevant to these vital doctrines. These men may
claim to be personally directed by Jesus in what they counsel to LDS , who therefore
then can trust that these top leaders will never teach or promote false doctrine, but
the record suggests otherwise . No wonder Jesus said to Beware —Matt 7:15
Great article Sharon. This is so frustrating for me. Mormons claim they alone have the truth, but just try asking them what that truth is. The comments of this BYU professor has everyone here a buzz. I am sickened by the attitudes of the people around me. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told in the last week that this church did that in the past or racism was done by more than just Mormons. Never once have I heard anyone say that it’s wrong or that the LDS church is wrong on this belief. Mormon leaders and doctrine are like one giant roller coaster ride. Up, down, sideways, you name it. How can anyone be a Mormon if they aren’t clear on what the doctrine or teachings are? If they have a modern day prophet who doesn’t have the integrity it takes to come out and publicly say what is true and what isn’t. What is God’s word and what isn’t. I can see where he would feel that he has to be quiet on these issues because to publicly denounce these teachings would mean that he was publicly denouncing these past leaders. When will the truth become more important than being right with these people? 180 years of Mormonism doesn’t line up. If these men were true prophets with God’s true word, it would all line up, they wouldn’t be all over the place with teachings and doctrines. There would be no need to say “it isn’t official” or “it was just his opinion.” LDS members need to stop worrying over being right and start seeking the truth.
When current church ‘policy’ seems to indicate that past teaching by former church leadership that has fallen out of favor is mere “folklore” or “folk doctrine,” it begs the question why we should listen at all to current church leadership. Won’t their teachings become the new folk doctrine in the decades to come? Maybe that is one reason current LDS church leadership is so careful and safe in what they say and write. Mormonism has become so diluted, it seems to me, that it can hardly claim to be anything close to revolutionary as it once claimed. Mormonism certainly has ‘lost its savor.’ Mormonism is bland unsalted oatmeal, and no amount of brown sugar poured on top can make it appealing. (Well, that and, for me, the fact that it was foul to the core to begin with.)
Rick B says: – March 5, 2012 at 10:04 am – (but like a typical Mormon you must throw the Bible under the Bus)
You say many things that you cannot know about me, then you use you’re made up picture of me to prove me wrong, I often see this behavior in your group.
As for the Bible, I believe it to be the word of God, but unlike you I do not believe in the manmade definitions that have changed the meaning of God’s word.
++++++++++++++++++
I think you should use the same bad logic Sharon used above when you study the Bible, it would only be fair.
By the bad logic, you will have to declare Paul a bad Apostle and the men who decided to include him in God’s word to be wrong. So was Paul a bad Apostle, or is Sharon’s logic Bad”
fred
Hay rick,
I’m guessing the guy really did run into the apostle John or maybe he thought he was actually the apostle John. You’ve been to Jerusalem and there’s a peculiar malady that strikes some people who are visiting there. They begin to believe they are a character from the Bible. It’s called the “Jerusalem Syndrome”.
I think Joseph Smith and his home boys, although not in Jerusalem, suffered from something but I think it had more to do with an illusion of grandeur.
Who was it, that All Star Martin Harris who was having all sorts of visions and appearances.
Joseph Smith was a practitioner of folk magic which includes second sight vision. If one of our Mormon visitors would like to meet the apostle John or Peter or any character from the Bible, I think I could teach them how to do it. But realistically, I won’t go any where near that stuff. You can see what it birthed in Mormonism. But once someone claims God sent them a feeling confirming the truth of Mormonism, it’s Katie bar the door.
Jerusalem Syndrome
The Jerusalem syndrome is a group of mental phenomena involving the presence of either religiously themed obsessive ideas, delusions or other psychosis-like experiences that are triggered by a visit to the city of Jerusalem. It is not endemic to one single religion or denomination but has affected Jews, Christians and Muslims of many different backgrounds.
The best known, although not the most prevalent, manifestation of the Jerusalem syndrome is the phenomenon whereby a person who seems previously balanced and devoid of any signs of psychopathology becomes psychotic after arriving in Jerusalem. The psychosis is characterized by an intense religious theme and typically resolves to full recovery after a few weeks or after being removed from the area.
fred,
My heavens man when are you going to stop with the “poor me” whine game and actually post something of substance. Our impression of you is based on what you write and how you write it.
TJay seems to get along fine here and he’s a Mormon. He doesn’t complain and whine and do the persecution routine. The whole premise of your posts is that the Christians who post here are mean, nasty people who hate Mormons and are attacking that religion.
We know you think that. You’ve made your point. Now either get with the program and write some decent posts or hike on over to a Mormon website where you can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.
What in the world are you doing here anyway? I don’t get it.
The point is that these Mormon prophets weren’t prophets. What they practice(d) was sort of a religious creative dance. They just swirl and twirl and hop and dip and sway and in most cases without any accompanying music.
The rank and file Mormons look at this spectacle and applaud and think they’ve been treated to some incredible religious fine art. The Christian world looks at the prophets’ interpretive dance as some queer spectacle, because it is just that.
The early Mormon prophets were spiritual free lancers. The era in which they lived was rife with all kinds of these religious dance parties. Because of this an environment existed where any strange thought, idea or idle speculation was taken seriously by some.
I really get annoyed by this folklore nonsense. It’s just folk dancing that goes out of style until the next new dance comes along. Twist anyone? Thomas Monson could be the next Mormon Chubby Checker! Come on everybody, clap your hands. Ah you’re looking good. I’m going to sing my song and it won’t take long. We’re going to do the twist and it looks like this.
The Mormon twist. They’ve been doing that one for generation!
God does not deal kindly with false prophets. It doesn’t matter if they are billed as “Christian” or what label they carry. Are there “Christian” false prophets? Absolutely, however I use the term “Christian” loosely. They’re all over the world. They need to be exposed and treated with disdain. Anyone remember Jim Jones or David Koresh? Look what happened to their followers. Many ended up dead due to the influence of these two false prophets. Following the Mormon false prophets, while not leading to physical death, will result in spiritual death.
The frustrating thing for me is that Mormons can’t see through these spiritually dead prophets of theirs. I don’t care how sincere, devout and “righteous” the prophet appears, if they preach a false gospel they are spiritual scoundrels and worse.
It’s amazing the devotion and awe with which Mormons hold their modern day prophets. Talk about misplaced devotion. It’s little better than idol worship.
I’m reminded that this is a spiritual battle. Acts 13:6-12 demonstrates this. The first step for freedom for Mormons is knowing and understanding that their prophets are false prophets. Getting free from their influence will allow them to find Jesus and in finding Him to gain eternal life.
There’s something that’s easy to miss in the account of Paul confronting the false prophet Bar-Jesus. It says that this false prophet was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus (Acts 13:7). What is easy to miss is that the account describes the proconsul “……Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence…..” Catch that, “a man of intelligence”. Now how can a “man of intelligence” be taken in by a false prophet? How is that possible?
There are many men of intelligence in the LDS church and yet they come under the influence of false prophets past and present.
There’s a spiritual dynamic as well as an emotional one here. David Koresh’s main lieutenant, gave his wife to Koresh in order that she might conceive a child by him. These were not dumb people. In fact, in terms of intellectual horsepower, I’d guess they were above average.
False prophets often attract smart people. When a person, smart or not, is emotionally attracted to someone or a movement, IQ points have nothing to do with it. This happens inside and outside of religion and can include political movements for example the Nazis in Germany, the KKK in this country and any number of skin head groups.
I would say that the other dynamic, the spiritual one, demonstrates the insidious nature of the work of the enemy. I don’t know how smart Adam and Eve were but my guess is that God didn’t create them with low intellectual potential. And yet Satan was able to seduce them with a promise that they could be like God. They were maneuvered into disobeying God’s direct order for an empty promise and a lie.
Mormonism is an empty promise and a lie. The false prophets that have led and do lead the LDS church are to Satan, useful idiots.
Mormons don’t realize how untrustworthy/contradictory their sources are. The main attraction of Mormonism is to follow the prophet, but then they dismiss prophetic teachings from the pulpit as unofficial. It’s like trying to have your cake and eat it too. I think it’s strange how Mormons will throw some of Brigham Young’s teachings under the buss as “unofficial folk lore” but then they quote LDS apologists as if they are more authoritative than past prophets.
Most Mormons I know won’t even commit to saying if God speaks to Thomas Monson or not. Last I checked, speaking with God–and hearing Him in return–was the hallmark of a prophet. Has any recent LDS leader claimed to do that??
Fred said
Fred, since you either have a short memory, or you have a good memory and just deny things, I will spell this out for you, you are what I call a HYPO-CRITE. I say that because You said and say about us here that we are clueless about Mormon Doctrine and do not do our research, when I tell you I do and what books I have read and even use quotes from your leaders, you never have anything to say to me. When I ask you to tell me how you can say I dont do my research when I do, you remain silent. But when I say you dont do your research, you cry and suck your thumb. Then You say I cannot say these things and these things I say are typical of my group. Again unfounded L-I-E-S, yet it is ok for you to say and do these things and act this way, but if we say the same things you get upset.
The difference is, I provide what I believe is evidence and you dont. I say my evidence is, your lack honest reply’s. How come I quote your leaders and you can only reply back with, I am wrong? How is telling me I am wrong with out showing me where or how providing evidence?
Fred said
Here you go again being dishonest. You only quote part of it and leave off the rest, Mormons say, we believe the bible to be the word of God, “IN SO FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.” F unny how you leave off that last part. Funny how no mormon prophet has ever gone to the Lord in prayer and said Please correct the Scripture for us and let us get the correct scriptures into the hand of your people. why might that be? How come no LDS can ever come forward and tell us what scriptures are wrong and why.
I believe you do not know the answer to Fred’s question. It now seems the question is irrelevant due to the direction the blog is going.
It seems true that all here have found all that they want to find. The mormon church has faults but so do other churches. Anything I write can be easily misconstrued. I too believe the Bible is the word of God but you belittle it by stating “in so far as translated correctly” and making it seem that we believe none of it. If we all tried to be sweetly civil to each other in this blog we would probably all have bloody lips from biting them so hard. There are lots of things I can say but I will try to think of saying them in a better way than how I want to say them now.
Can Mormons trust their prophets?
1)Yes, because they don’t say anything new – when was the last time a non-negative revelation of significance was received by an LDS prophet – hint: somewhere near the beginning.
2)No, because what they say of any distinction is just repeating what old prophet(s) have said – and who knows how much more of the old prophet’s stuff will become mere “opinion” in the future.
3)Yes, becaus everything else they say is what anyone else could say and does say (quaint stories of ethics and morals).
4)They don’t have to. And, one could say, they DON’T trust their prophets. The only difference between LDS believers and just about all other types of religious believers is that LDS have to divine which statements are true or false (just like all types of believers) but only from the Brethren. Given that LDS Prophets have failed to finish the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, or unlock anymore of the BoM (“translator”), or give any affirmative significant revelation (“revelator”), and only the vaguest hints of visions (“seer”), the only people really prophecying are the ones revealing what’s “opinion” and what’s not- the individual members are the LDS prophets! Granted-they don’t do much of the latter.
Dale – I wouldn’t say “It’s like trying to have your cake and eat it too”, because having a prophet but dismissing everything that makes him a prophet is like trying to have your cake and throw it away too. Or saying you eat gourmet food, but when someone asks you about any or all of it you reply – “oh no, that’s just store-bought.” At some point you have to ask, in the words of an illustrious old lady of the 80’s-
WHERE’S THE BEEF?!
clyde,
Here’s the problem with your “all churches have their faults” statement. The LDS church claims that they are God’s one true church and that they have a prophet and apostles for that matter, that speak directly for God. And isn’t there a Mormon motto that “the church is perfect but the people aren’t”?
That would indicate to me that apart from individual members and their personal imperfection, Mormons are claiming perfection for the institutional Mormon church and its leaders.
This “perfection” sentiment would cover the Mormon system and its prophets their teachings and prophetic utterances. It would cover church doctrines such as polygamy and the restrictions on blacks in the priesthood. I don’t know of any other church that claims to be the one true church with a perfect religious system much less that they alone are speaking for God.
So Mormons set their church, their prophets and quite often themselves up on a pedestal. There’s an arrogance and a sense that they are spiritually superior. When the Mormon system, the prophets and the people are put under scrutiny, they are revealed as being seriously flawed even fraudulent.
One of two things has to happen. Either Mormons are going to have to face the truth about their church and their prophets or they are going to have to look like liars, frauds and a laughing stock for the explanation and lame excuses they offer.
I SEE THAT NO ONE HERE WANTS TO HOLD THE PROPHETS OF THE BIBLE TO THE SAME STANDERDS AS YOU HOLD MODERN DAY PROPHETS TO.
HOW NORMAL FOR THIS GROUP TO REQUIRE MORMONS TO LIVE UP TO A HIGHER STANDERD THEN YOU ARE WILLING TO LIVE UP TO YOURSELVES.
FRED
It seems that Mormons have this OT view of prophets and apply it to men in their church and claim that they are God’s mouthpiece to God’s people. So these guys are like the Biblical Moses without the burning bush. The story they base this on is Joseph Smith’s account of having had Jesus and God the Father appear to Him personally.
There’s all sorts of problems with Smith’s claim including the fact that he changed the accepted and long held doctrine of the Father being a spirit and that no one has seen Him at any time but the Son who explains Him. Secondly, Smith changed his story so many times that it keeps the spin machine at Mormon Inc. on full time damage control just to explain away all of the inconsistencies in the tale.
The Book of Acts gives us a real picture of what a modern day prophet is like and the Mormon version of the prophet doesn’t quite fit the bill within the context of the NT church. First of all their were women prophets in the NT church. This is mentioned in Acts 21:9 in such a way that it doesn’t seem all that out of the ordinary. Are there women prophets in the Mormon church?
Prophets are also mentioned in Acts 13:1 and again in Acts 21:10-11. Notice that there is no mention of the “priesthood” any where in the Book of Acts or any place else in the NT. It’s a bogus office created out of whole cloth by Joseph Smith. There is no NT role for someone holding an office of “priesthood’.
What is mentioned, and at some length in the NT, is the role of the Holy Spirit in the church and the offices and gifts God has provided.
The problem with Mormon concept of prophets and priesthood holders for that matter, is that they are conventions that Joseph Smith brought forth out of his considerable imagination. There is no Biblical support in the NT for what Smith implemented.
In Ephesians 4:11-13 we see the offices/roles within the NT church and the reason these (offices) exist. This is expanded on in First Corinthians 12:28-31. In fact First Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14 expand on this concept and are quite definitive. Since the apostle Paul had actually seen Jesus and had the Gospel revealed to him not by men but by Our Lord, I would consider what he had to say more authoritative than a guy who ran about the country side with a magic rock looking for buried treasure.
Smith’s tales and his religious invention is a fantasy of man who had little use for what the Bible actually says but depended on his own creative to manufacture a god and a religion to his own liking.
We know beyond doubt that the Mormon prophets past and present are false because of their very poor record in doing their job and the fact that nothing they say/said or do has support in the Scriptures.
If Mormons did really respect and follow the Bible their religion, in its present form, would disappear.
Clyde said
Clyde, Your as bad as Fred. You tell me I am the one that belittles the bible by add adding the prase, In so far as it is translated, I guess your not a well read Mormon. It is not me that said that, It is YOUR CHURCH THAT TEACHES THAT. Then as far as you saying all Churchs have problems, Again, your not really reading or listing to what is said. Were not talking about minor problems, Were talking about your prophets saying they said things and taught things that were/are Scripture staright from the mouth of God. Then later prophets changing it and saying, nope, thats not true.
The Christians Churches do not claim to have prophets that speak for God. Even if one or two or even a hundred Churches have pastors that claim God spoke to them, yet what they thought they heard was wrong, then we dont believe it and simply make excuses for them. Some Might, but not all.
I know I dont. My wife’s family wont talk to me any more and thats fine, I kept confronting them and telling them their health and wealth doctrine is false. Now how many of these health and wealth preachers are dying? or checking into the hospital under fake names. Or are going to the poorest countries in the world preaching this false gospel? Rob Bell is a false preacher, is book, Love wins is false. I could sit here and drop names all say long, yet you guys still follow false prophets.
Clyde, Take the Bible for example.
Your Church, not me, teaches many plain and precious parts are missing. How do your know? Your prophets said so. If that the case, how come they have never come forward with a word from God telling us whats missing? How come they quote from a bible missing parts and is not translated correctly? How can they really trust it to be accurate?
JS was COMMANDED by God along with Sidney Rigdon to “Correct” the Bible, Now we have the J.S.T
And I happen to own a copy. Funny thing about this, JS was told he would not die till he finished the work of translating the J.S.T, Yet according to the J.S.T it is NOT FINISHED, and JS was killed. So did God lie? It’s in YOUR SCRIPTURES.
Then some in the LDS church claim the J.S.T was finished. So who’s right? It cannot be finished and not finished at the same time. Many LDS even feel after it was finished and JS was killed that the J.S.T feel into corruption and that is why Many dont use it or keep it to very limited verses.
Sadly these are just a few of the problems that you and Fred simply ignore and refuse to answer, instead Fred tells us we dont know anything, and never answers questions. Then you defend him and say, you can answer our questions but why bother, we wont listen anyway. Seriously, that is such a cop out and shows you guys are not able to handle the truth.
You wont find us avoiding questions simply because we believe you wont listen. If that were the case, this blog would be none existent since no one would post. By the way, where are all the LDS?
Fred, your first accusation has a reasonable answer . Your second question is
unclear to me . Are you saying that “this group” “requires” Mormons to live to a
higher moral standard than themselves ? This is how I’m taking your statement.
If this is the case then please know that you are sorely mistaken . As far as your
accusation concerning how we look at prophets and evaluate them , there is some
important information on this issue relative to Mormon prophets /apostles that
you need to be aware of . We’re not hear to make you change your mind ( only God
can do that ) . This is not a type of religious game show where if we score one more
point than Mormons than our “religion” is true and yours false . This is much more
serious than any “contest” , as following false prophets/apostles will have eternal
consequences . Perhaps later I’ll share with you why I can’t follow Mormon leaders.
Is it going to be a waste of my time ? ( based on your responses to Sharon on this
thread I’m thinking it may be ) .
fred,
Do you think that if you write all in caps you’ll make your point better? You’re like the person who takes one step backwards and yells at the top of their lungs thinking that volume will be taken for clarity or depth of thought.
I have no idea what you’re talking about whether you write in caps or regular script. It’s just more drive by shooting and fire bomb throwing. I, along with others here, have continually asked you to present something that has some depth. Instead all we get is a couple of sentences of ranting.
Are you a kid or are you an adult?
The standards by which we hold Biblical prophets is that they be correct. If they are not correct, they are not prophets. Why do you think Jesus, after his resurrection told His disciples to study the prophets to see what they said about Him (Luke 24:44-47.
Here Mormons are constantly stating that their prophets are all top notch and what we see is akin to amateur night at karaoke. They can’t carry a prophetic tune and they jumble up the words.
If these guys are who you are depending on to know what the mind of God is, I’d say you’re better off going alone. The Mormon prophets reflect the Mormon god who comes across as being inconsistent and unable to articulate a cogent thought or a clear message.
The Biblical prophets had game. The Mormon prophets can’t even make it at the sand lot level.
Tom,
“When current church ‘policy’ seems to indicate that past teaching by former church leadership that has fallen out of favor is mere “folklore” or “folk doctrine,” it begs the question why we should listen at all to current church leadership. Won’t their teachings become the new folk doctrine in the decades to come? ”
My thoughts exactly. I think this is the number 1 reason that Thomas Monson hasn’t “revealed” anything. Even stuff that Gordon Hinkley said in interviews is being thrown back at the LDS church. Past teachings that are now considered folklore are just thrown thrown into the “doesn’t count” file because what past leaders said and taught was for their time and what leaders today are teaching is for our time. It’s really hard to pin down any Mormon doctrines (LDS) because it seems that any given doctrine on any given day can be thrown willy nilly out the nearest window. Other Mormon sects embrace their religion. Aaron did a video interview with a man from the FLDS church awhile back. He didn’t seem like he was ashamed to tell all that his church teaches. No excuses, just the truth of it. By the way, they still don’t allow Blacks to hold the priesthood because Brigham Young said things like this:
“They [blacks] will GO DOWN TO DEATH. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which WE now are entitled to.” LDS “Prophet” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p.272, 1866
(cont)
(cont)
“How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will REMAIN UPON THEM, and THEY NEVER CAN HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favourable position, THE CHILDREN OF CAIN CANNOT RECEIVE THE FIRST ORDINANCES OF THE PRIESTHOOD. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.” LDS “Prophet” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pp. 290-291, 1859
Between this and the teachings of the pre existence, I’d say the claim of “folklore” by members of the LDS church is way off the mark.
In a word I think the answer is NO, Mormons can’t trust their prophets. The LDS prophets are untrustworthy given their atrocious track record. In less than 200 years they have been all over the place on whether skin color is determined by a person’s faithfulness in the “pre-mortal existence,” whether polygamy is an “eternal commandment” or not (think about that one for a just a second – obviously Brigham Young was wrong by definition), the nature of God (not a small thing to be inconsistent about, but the LDS Church has had several iterations of who God is!), blood atonement (do LDS believe you have to atone for your own sins of a particular type, or not?), and these are just a few of the huge reivisions/changes – with one prophet contradicting another. The only was to resolve this is to discount all revelation given by Mormon prophets, let this falsehood go, and then turn to Scripture and see what God has revealed about who He truly is. There is freedom in gospel of grace, Christ crucified for our sins, unlike the bondage of works righteousness in the LDS Church that offers no true hope or forgiveness.
I wholeheartedly agree with Tom. Nothing of substance is ever talked about by the current lds leaders. I keep finding quotes by their leaders that are very Christian sounding. Very “It will all work out in the end”, “love your neighbor”, “don’t be selfish”, “pay your tithe”, etc etc. Nice little ditties that keep the members happy, all thinking they just heard a direct message from God. It’s ridiculous. They’re having to do so much damage control right now, that they’re taking the safest route possible and keeping the talks light and fluffy.
Too many Mormons fancy themselves spokespeople for the church–look at the entire FAIR and Mormon Voices organizations–but what they don’t realize is that everything they say can be classified as “folk lore.” Funny how the faith promoting “folk lore” is often overlooked. I find it ironic that Mormons think the opinions of modern apologists are more insightful and doctrinally-sound than the teachings of Brigham Young.
We even see this happen on the boards. One minute a Mormon defender will quote Bruce McConkie, and the next breath, they are saying he’s unofficial.
You can’t “misconstrue” Brigham Young’s statement that one drop of the “seed of Cain” (black people), will disqualify you as a holder of the priesthood. Or that the “seed of Cain” were always and would always be inferior and under the seed of Abel (white folks). That ALL of the white folks must have the priesthood before the poor black folks could. That inter-racial marriage was a death sentence. That it would kill your children. You can’t “misconstrue” that Young taught that Adam was God. That Jesus atonement didn’t cover certain sins. That people needed to be re-baptized over and over again. That revenge oaths, and blood atonement were God’s laws through bona fide apostles and prophets. These points of Mormon DOCTRINE, were not folklore, fairytales, or speculation. They were uttered by those who claimed to speak for God, as God, and as his commandments by the only ones on earth “authorized” to speak for him. I dare any Mormon here, to debate me on these issues. The proof is there, UNREFUTABLE, that these are facts. Put up, or shut up. _johnny
I’ll hold up any Biblical Prophet to a so called Mormon one. Be careful. You may not like what you find. And instead of playing games Fred, just ask your questions. Are you speaking of the Aaronic Priesthood? Again, be careful what you wish for, because you will definitely get it.
_johnny
What I’ve learned over the years as we’ve had this type of discussion is that what a Mormon prophet says counts only while he is alive. Once he dies and a few years pass, what he said and what was embraced by that generation of Mormons becomes folklore. It used to be called that prophet’s opinion however the “folklore” label has now gained favor.
Mormonism is progressive in that it reinvents itself every generation or so. This is why the FLDS is such an anomaly in the Mormon family of Mormon sects. They have held fast to Nauvoo style Mormonism and aren’t ashamed of it.
I think we could say that after the death of Joseph Smith there was a great deal of confusion among the Mormon faithful. Some followed Brigham Young while others followed various other Mormon leaders. Actually we could go back further than that to the time when Smith tossed-out the Book of Commandments and came up with the Doctrine and Covenants. At that time there were Mormons who claimed Smith was a fallen prophet and split from him.
Pick up a copy of “Under The Banner of Heaven” and get a feel for what Mormonism and all of its prophets have wrought.
“These present day polygamists therefore consider themselves to be the keepers of the flame-the only true and righteous Mormons……Fundamentalist prophets bellow from their pulpits that the modern church has become ‘the wickedest whore of all the earth’.”
These prophets should be shown deference and respect, right?
Nothing. All bluster. Typical.
Congratulation to Falcon Rick B. and Mike. Of 35 Comments you have put out the majority of them 19. It is interesting when tracking the comments that when someone puts out a new blog that Mike and Falcon will surely blog on it. In fact on some of these blogs Mike and Falcon are the only responder. OK that is not exactly correct but when there are only 3 or 4 other repliers other than mike or Falcon out of thirty it is remarkable how wordy Falcon can be. You still can’t answer Fred question.
Clyde said
Clyde, Please go back and show us in detail where and how Fred has answered our questions? He has not and neither have you, so please do explain why we should answer his after answering so many others while he refuses to answer us. Seems you have time to go back and see how many replies we all post, yet cannot bother to see that Fred or you dont answer questions. While your at it, look at how many times we remind you guys to answer the questions. You sure you guys are not really stand up comics? Your pretty good at telling jokes.
clyde,
I’ve shrouded fred. He’s in the deep freeze as far as I’m concerned. It’s a deliberate strategy on my part as well as rick’s. We get sick of these bomb thrower Mormon types who show up here with their one or two sentence demands for answers and then when provided with detailed analysis and cited references just blow-it-off and demand more of their questions be answered. The freds contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion. Being naive Mormons, the freds have a limited amount of information to share and can’t formulate a decent argument. rick and I aren’t going to let guys like fred control this board.
I really don’t get your point about the number of posts some of us write. This is a ministry clyde. I’m called by God to do it and I will continue until he tells me to stop. The goal is to assist those Mormons who are questioning or heading out of Mormonism on their journey. The other is to inoculate the Christian community to the lies, deceit and methods that Mormon missionaries use to disarm them and seduce them into the sect.
Those of us who post on a regular basis have our own particular style and approach and it’s intentional. The Mormon church is in a world of hurt right now as more and more of its members leave. These folks find out critical information that reveals that the “one true church” is indeed fraudulent. I hope my contribution moves them into a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus.
Mike R says: – March 6, 2012 at 9:22 am – (Are you saying that “this group” “requires” Mormons to live to a higher moral standard than themselves ? This is how I’m taking your statement.)
You complain that I do not give enough information and then you do not take the time to understand the few words I say.
The standard is that you forget to check the Bible to see if the old Prophets did the same thing you say is wrong for modern Prophets to do. BY WHAT YOU {NOT ME} TEACH HERE, Paul was a false Prophet.
fred
Rick B says: – March 6, 2012 at 8:21 am – (Were talking about your prophets saying they said things and taught things that were/are Scripture staright from the mouth of God. Then later prophets changing it)
And yet you refuse to check where Paul did the same thing. Why do you not hold the old Prophets to the same standard you say the latter day Prophets must be held to?
fred
falcon says: – March 6, 2012 at 11:59 am – (The standards by which we hold Biblical prophets is that they be correct. If they are not correct, they are not prophets.)
If Paul was correct to do what you say is wrong for a Prophet to do, then you must be wrong.
You say the Bible is correct when Paul changed God’s word, but you say God’s servants today are wrong when they do it. A double standard. Why can you not apply the same standard to the old Prophets that you apply to modern Prophets?
fred
fred,
If you’re going to make comments like:
“If Paul was correct to do what you say is wrong for a Prophet to do, then you must be wrong.
You say the Bible is correct when Paul changed God’s word, but you say God’s servants today are wrong when they do it. A double standard. Why can you not apply the same standard to the old Prophets that you apply to modern Prophets?”
You’re going to have to make some sense fred because I have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not a Mormon and often times don’t know the Biblical Urban Legends that Mormons repeat to one another down at the wards.
You need to be specific about how Paul changed the Word of God. That would be quite a trick since Jesus appeared to Paul and revealed the Gospel to him.
Galatians 1:11-12 and forward explains it all. Acts 9:3-7 provides the account of Paul’s encounter with Our Lord.
These were actual occurrences and not the vain imaginations of the like claimed by Joseph Smith. If you want a true example of some person or group changing the Word of God look no further that the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. Smith was an ignoramus and a fool and had no knowledge of ancient languages. He just kicked into blue sky mode and produced whatever popped into his fertile imagination.
BTW fred, the real problem here is your lack of knowledge. I’m not being condescending but stating an obvious fact. You’re so locked into the Mormon system and mindset and the result is that you are misinformed and mislead. That’s not so unusual for folks who have surrendered and out-sourced their thinking to a bunch of false prophets. Begin to explore on your own in an independent manner.
Fred ,
The Old Testament prophets said and did many things, entire Old Testament Books full of statements and actions. The Apostle Paul said and did many things, entire New Testament books full of statements and actions. Spell out (chapter and verse from the Old and New Testaments) the particular words and actions to which you are referring, please, regarding the Old Testament prophets and the Apostle Paul. One cannot expect specific answers to generally worded questions.
falcon says: – March 7, 2012 at 8:44 am – (I have no idea what you are talking about.)
You claim to have a very good knowledge of the Bible and yet your teachers have chosen not to teach you this. Since it is in the Bible and not some Latter-Day writing, you have all you need to find it, if you really want the truth. After all, all you have to do is check on what Paul said about changing what God had given as an Everlasting Covenant in the OT.
gpark,
These folks around here have a bad habit of taking a small statement out of context and making it look like something it is not. If they take the time to find it themselves, they cannot say I am misleading them. But, history shows that they would rather spend their time calling me names.
fred
Gee Mike, falcon and Rick! You blogger hoggers you! I’m still laughing!!! I think Clyde has an issue with you constantly contending for the faith. How nice it would be for the Mormon posters here to not have to deal with you three. I kinda like reading what you have to say, I can’t tell you how much you guys have helped me in my new Christian faith. Keep up the good work! You really are helping those Mormons questioning, on the way out the door, and those of us who are newly out!
Clyde,
Maybe you and fred should join in the discussion instead of complaining . I can understand that on this particular topic there isn’t much you can say. The evidence is all right there front and center.
fred,
The problem with you is that you don’t explain yourself well. No one ever knows what the heck you are talking about. Maybe if you could put at least 2 or 3 sentences together it would help. You want an answer about Paul but you never really asked the question. Many here have shown you in great detail where your prophets have changed God’s Word. Please, do tell where Paul has done the same.
OK fred,
That’s it. I’m sending a request to the moderators that they suspend you from this blog. You’re nothing but a troll with no intention of engaging in honest discussion. You need to be sent to cyberspace outer darkness.
Fred, you said to me : ” you complain that I do not give enough information
and then you do not take the time to understand the few words I say.”
I would seriously like to know where I’ve complained to you . It’s been probably close
to week now that I asked you to be specific in how you came to embrace Mormonism
as the true church/gospel . You have yet to reply to that request. Now I’m not going to
think any less of you if you choose not to , but it would be nice to know your story etc.
As I mentioned in my last post to you there is reasonable answers to your questions
relative to this thread ( trusting your leaders ) . I’m not interested if you’re just going
to try and post a link to an Mormon apologetic site, or if you are just going to suggest I
take the time to find the answers , or if you merely respond like you did about why
Blacks were not allowed the Priesthood etc. I’m an outdoor person and I have plenty
of things to do instead of sitting here trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue with you
if you don’t want to . Thanks for stopping by . We’re concerned for your spiritual safety
because Jesus said to Beware of false prophets —- Matt 7:15; 24:24 .
Kate said
Kate, You could argue that I have been the longest and oldest person on this blog. I was with this blog before it even started. I was answering in the Q and A section. Out of the I believe 53 questions, I answered all but two. Then this blog started and I was posting from day 1. Also good news for you and bad news for the LDS, I am here to stay. I will never leave unless I am dead. I might not reply on every topic, but I am never leaving unless I go home to be with the Lord. Sorry LDS, But the hammer is so heavy that you cannot remove it, I’m like Thor’s hammer, Only Thor can lift his hammer and only God can lift me.
Fred said
I hope others follow my lead Fred but here I go again. I refuse to answer any more of your questions until you answer ours. You can say what you want, but since you refuse to answer them I wont answer you anymore.
Clyde, You claimed we dont answer Fred, I told you we do and he refuses to answer us, I asked you to show me exactly where and how he did? You have not and you will not since you know he has not and cannot. I wonder, are you two twins, or maybe the same person under different names? You two reply alike, Have hearted replies that amount to nothing.
rick,
I guess you and I hold the distinction of being on this blog the longest; you longer than I. It’s been quite an education in Mormonism from the mouths of the true believers. Every once in a while we have to do some detective work here to ferret out the trolls who stop by with the intended purpose of disrupting the discussion. Remember the one who would show-up periodically under a new name?
Frankly I don’t know if they are trying to be clever or what but they come across as not being good representatives or defenders of Mormonism. I even joked that these people sounded, in their writing, like Christian moles who were posting here (as faux Mormons) just to make Mormons and Mormonism look bad; which isn’t that difficult actually.
Then I sit back and ponder, “Is this what Mormonism produces?” I’ll bet their bishop(s) would be embarrassed if they knew what sort of impression they are leaving concerning rank and file Mormons.