Late last year (2012) a copy of the 2006 Mission President’s Handbook was posted on an individual’s blog site. This document, produced by the Mormon Church as a practical instruction manual for mission presidents, “contains basic policies and guidelines established by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to help you lead your missionaries and direct the work” (6). The book is not intended for general readership; “general” readers have found that it contains some things that are surprising in light of the public face that the Church puts forth.
One such surprise is found in Appendix B, Family Finances. It begins,
“While you are serving as mission president, the Church reimburses the necessary living expenses for you, your wife, and your dependent children. Dependent children are defined as those who are under age 26, have not been married, and are not employed full-time. Living expenses include food, clothing, household supplies, family activities, dry cleaning, personal long-distance calls to family, and modest gifts (for example, Christmas, birthdays, or anniversary).” (80)
Additional reimbursable or paid expenses are also listed including (but not limited to) medical expenses; support for children serving full-time missions; dance lessons (and the like) for elementary and secondary school-aged children as well as their school tuition, fees and books; undergraduate college tuition; a gardener; a housekeeper; internet and other utilities; babysitters; transportation expenses including the use of a car and all fuel and maintenance expenses; and personal health and life insurance premiums.
The handbook instructs,
“The amount of any funds reimbursed to you should be kept strictly confidential and should not be discussed with missionaries, other mission presidents, friends, or family members.” (80)
One can only speculate about the reasons for this confidentiality among friends and family. But the mission president is also instructed to keep mum about these financial benefits to the taxman.
“Because you are engaged in volunteer religious service, no employer-employee relationship exists between you and the Church. As a result, any funds reimbursed to you from the Church are not considered income for tax purposes; they are not reported to the government, and taxes are not withheld with regard to these funds…
“To avoid raising unnecessary tax questions, please follow these guidelines closely:
“Do not share information on funds you receive from the Church with those who help you with financial or tax matters. Any exceptions should be discussed with the Church Tax Division.
“Never represent in any way that you are paid for your service.
“If you are required to file an income-tax report for other purposes, do not list any funds you receive from the Church, regardless of where you serve or where you hold citizenship.” (82)
Eric Johnson and Bill McKeever did some calculations on a hypothetical mission president serving in the state of Utah. This imaginary Mormon Church leader ended up with benefits equaling $99,500 per year. Furthermore, Eric Johnson writes,
“It must be mentioned that tithing on these items are not supposed to be paid. Unlike other church members, this family can receive temple recommends without paying tithing on “income.” Hence, for the value of this compensation, which we list here at almost $100,000, the tithe amount would be at least $10,000. So, this particular mission president—who, remember, is considered a “volunteer”—is getting compensation for at least $110,000! Not bad for someone who is not supposedly getting a wage!”
Indeed.
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Listen to the series of broadcasts, Mission Presidents’ Compensation parts 1-5, on MRM’s Viewpoint on Mormonism found in the podcast archives (28 January – 1 February 2013).
Wow, for 36 years I taught , bagged about the unpaid leaders in the church from 1975 till I left the church for good on Sep 11 2011, each day , each week and month day goes by is a freedom that is sweet, in the beginning it was like getting punched in the face, gut, and having your heart ripped out learning things you never knew, now my mindset is NEXT, whats is next, another great article, I know what question I have for those guys on bikes, ” hey guys i have few questions, lol ” does your mission President get paid ? and if he did and you found out how would you feel ? Stay tuned , I will ask that question.
Anybody like to predict there anwers, mind is, ” I still have a testimony, and know the church is true, makes me sick, and sad.
I think it is wonderful that this info is getting out there. The internet is proving to be a nightmare for the leadership. I hope that more and more LDS people will start to question not only this but other things that make you go tilt.
Canuck
I can understand needing to support the mission president and his family if he is leaving his job to fill this position. What I don’t understand is the LDS church leadership telling them to be dishonest and evade taxes. I also think it should be made public that these men are paid for their services. I didn’t know that these men were paid at all until a few years ago.
During one of our temple classes I asked about the leadership of the church being paid and my bishop told me that they get a modest salary because they left their jobs, so I knew the prophet and apostles were paid. Have you seen how old these leaders are? I’m sure they are retired from their former jobs, but whatever makes it easier to accept.
“If you are required to file an income-tax report for other purposes, do not list any funds you receive from the Church, regardless of where you serve or where you hold citizenship.” (82)
I’m wondering how much trouble the church is going to be in when mission presidents who live in other countries are caught evading taxes in those countries.
The blatant dishonesty from a church who demands ” honesty in dealings with your fellow man” from it’s members in order for them to receive a temple recommend is appalling.
I could care less what they’re paying these guys in terms of the amount of money. I think the point of the article is that the Mormon church has a well earned reputation for being sneaky and lying.
Isn’t one of the Mormon church’s bragging points that they don’t have any paid clergy? And that Christian clergy get paid for preaching their abominable creeds? Wasn’t that part of one of the “dramas” that was performed in the temple that some how got dropped from the program.
The leadership of the Mormon church are a bunch of lying hypocrites. Check this out for another example. Lots of Mormon Mind Melding needs to be done to accept this stuff.
http://www.watchman.org/lds/page1may.htm
I don’t care much about paid clergy or if the LDS is paying them or what. It’s the lying that gets me. And ESPECIALLY the outright command to not claim it as income on taxes. That bothers me beyond belief.
I am really curious what Shem Thinks about all of this. I’m guessing they received a revelation from God telling them that it is ok to lie.
So far no matter the topic, According to Shem, were all ignorant and we simply dont understand because were not Mormon. No matter how much of what they quote and what they say, we just dont understand the full context.
So Maybe Shem will tell us what were missing here? He probably is well aware of what goes on and does not care.
It’s unfortunate that the Mormon church has morphed into a giant powerfull corporation .
Years ago I used to wonder about the truth concerning their claim of having no paid ministry ,
what was the whole truth . No doubt it’s lawyers have aided it in carefully answering that
question to the public . When the statement is made that there are only a few in the church
who give their entire time to church service and therefore receive : ” only a living allowance” , it
makes you wonder what their definition of “living allowance” means exactly ? Bottom line
here is that the Mormon people are so conditioned to “follow the prophet” that they just won’t
stop and look into some of the doctrines/policies that they’ve embraced . I think the Mormon
heirarchy does’nt want the whole truth about where the tithe money goes for a very good reason.
The Mormon people deserve to be treated better , but powerful religions, like corporations ,
don’t seem to trust their rank and file members enough .
Rick & Mike,
It’s all about having a testimony of JS, the BoM, the current prophet, the Mormon church and someone they call Jesus but isn’t the Jesus of the Bible.
Shem et. al. will tell us that we are persecuting the LDS church, that these men are super special and that they should be loved, honored and obeyed no matter what.
That’s the mind set of the cultist. It’s not the leadership or the church itself that is the problem, it’s those nasty people bringing this up and publicizing it.
For those who are questioning Mormonism, this is just one more straw on the camel’s back. To the TBM it’s a badge of honor to keep on believing no matter what.
“Follow the leaders, they will never lead you astray.” “When the leaders speak, the thinking has been done.”
Shut-up and keep tithing!
I have heard it said when it comes to any person or Ministry or even “Cult”.
What to know what the person, people or company is about? Follow the Money.
It’s really that simple.
Wow. There are so many people who think they know my opinions and attitudes that it hardly seems necessary to give them. Rick and Falcon seem to do a good job. I don’t think it matters much that they are wrong in what they say. They are saying it, and so it must be so.
Personally, I have never had a problem with living allowances and compensation for time spent. This was instituted in the time of Joseph Smith, in which clerks and other offices were given allowances for the time they spent in their service.
As to dishonesty, that is not true. The ministry of the church is not the General Authorities. The ministry is the local leaders who are working and building the kingdom. These men are not paid for anything, though on occasion they are reimbursed for service. I myself have been asked to send out a few letters each month, and I receive a small amount of money to pay for the postage.
Now, speaking of taxes, this is perfectly legal and is not lying to the government. They are reimbursed for expenses accrued while engaged in volunteer service to the church. Mission Presidents are rarely called from within the area that they serve, but are sent out to other countries or areas to serve the church. Thus they leave their jobs and voluntarily undertake service, and are reimbursed for the expenses required to do that service. This is non-taxable funds, for the simple fact that they are not getting paid directly.
It is just like a man on a business trip. He is reimbursed for his hotel and meals, and does not record that reimbursement on his taxes because it is the equivalent of the business paying the hotels and restaurants.
In like manner it is the church that is paying the living expenses of these men and their families, and thus the reimbursement is not considered income, and thus is not taxable.
Hi, I’m new here, although I’ve been watching the debates for several years. Perhaps I’ll post a little info on myself at a later date but for now I simply feel the need to respond to Shematwaters comment on taxes. I can’t speak for the IRS in the States but I can say something about the situation here in the United Kingdom. This is a list of people who MUST send a tax return.
https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who-must-send-a-tax-return
As can be seen it is clearly stated that ‘a director of a charity who gets paid or receives ‘benefits’ – e.g. travel expenses or a company car, OR ‘A religious minister of any kind’ is included in the list.
By telling a Mission President NOT to inform the authorities of any expenses received the LDS is therefore causing that person to commit the crime of tax evasion, a very serious crime in this country. The inland revenue will decide who pays tax, not the LDS.
Nice try shem. The LDS church leaders are clearly telling mission presidents to evade taxes. If they were not held accountable to pay taxes on money given for living expenses, there would be no need to tell them to keep this a secret from anyone. You want this religion to be true so badly that you have thrown all reason out the window. Look at what is in front of your face. Really think about it.
“If you are required to file an income-tax report for other purposes, do not list any funds you receive from the Church, regardless of where you serve or where you hold citizenship.” (82)
Now look at this in light of the information Old man has given us. I’m sure the LDS church leadership knows that mission presidents are to report this money and pay taxes on it in the UK. I’m wondering, who will be in trouble for tax evasion here? Is it the mission presidents or the LDS church? If mission presidents get caught in the UK evading taxes, will the LDS church step in or is that mission president SOL and on his own? Just a thought.
Shem said
Your a funny guy, you did exactly as I said you would, yet you claim I am wrong. You pretty much said it was ok for them to do what they do, and you justified everything they do. Thats about what I said you would do.
Monson was 32 when called as a General Authority, so how did he manage to retire from the private sector at such a young age , sounds like he has been supported by the church for 40 plus yrs
Rick,
Yes you were right! Isn’t it amazing how people can justify unrighteous behavior and practices and at the same time contend how wholesome their religion is? I think maybe something should have been put in the Word of Wisdom about fraud and deceit.
If someone can’t even see something as obvious as this, is there any hope for them?
Falcon,
It would not matter if it was put in the WoW, They only obey the dont drink coffe or tea part.
And it started out as a good idea not to do this, now it is a law of God. Funny how that works.
Many years ago when I first looked into the claims of the Mormon church it was common to
read in church publications ( and testimony from Mormons when interviewed by the press)
that one of the identifying marks that my church was apostate was because my Pastor/minister
was paid etc. , but since the Mormon church did’nt succumb to this therefore it was Jesus’ true
church. It seems that attention was to focus on the local Bishop , comparing him with the non-
Mormon churches . At the time I never gave to much thought to those men who actually head
the church from S.L.C. Utah. I’m sure most LDS down through the years never stopped long
enough to think about that either, they simply trusted the advertising created by their PR dept
which at least implied that the Mormon hierarchy was not “paid ministers” by using specific
language with statements like , ” giving living allowances “, or ” compensated ” which would
not be as obvious . It seems however that the Mormon prophet has been well taken care of , he
has conveniently been placed on the boards of large Mormon owned corporations and thus
could draw a wage from them . During the Reed Smoot Hearings before the U.S. Senate 100
years ago , Prophet Joseph F. Smith had to admit that he was the president of many businesses
including several banks . Though this arrangement was supposedly changed in 1996 , still it
should cause sincere LDS to start thinking about being in a religious organization that is’nt
to eager to divulge this type of information to it’s members , members who to this day also
are’nt privleged to know where all their tithe money goes to pay for . Mormons really don’t
know what’s going on with their hierarchy in many important areas , and that’s unfortunate .
Men who create powerful corporations both secular or religious tend to succumb to this
behavior . The Mormon people deserve better .
Mike,
In reading your above post the words “corrupt organization” echoed through my mind. An organization that won’t be transparent about their money, must have something to hide. Why else not report what amounts to earnings, to the IRS? Are there employees of the IRS that belong to the Utah based Mormon church?
The LDS church has always been corrupt in one way or another going all the way back to Joseph Smith. Mormon “truth” isn’t truth as you and I know it. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking about JS claims of the supernatural or how the affairs of the church have been conducted through out its history.
A true believing Mormon can never admit what’s going on inside the Mormon machine because to do so would cause them to lose confidence in the sect. When a Mormon loses confidence in the sect and its leaders, it really is lights out the party’s over. Some Mormons will then retreat to just believing in the BoM or some of the other beliefs of Mormonism but it isn’t long before the whole house of cards collapses.
It’s a struggle between the evidence and the testimony; emotions and evidence.
I sometimes forget that Mormons live in a different reality than those of us who aren’t Mormon. It’s a culture with it’s own mores, lingo and built-in rationalizations. It’s all codified and you need to be on the inside to get it. So is it any wonder that we engage in cross-cultural communication with Mormons and they are constantly telling us, “You just don’t understand”.
As I’ve often said, it’s not so much that we don’t understand, it’s just that we aren’t buying it. Former Mormons talk about the process of getting their heads’ right. Just think about all of the monkey business thinking that it takes to keep the whole ruse going.
Our current topic is no exception to this idea that Mormons live in a parallel universe. This is, after all, that promoted a huge bank flim flam in its early days. I don’t know what Joseph Smith net worth was when he died but my guess is that he was doing really well financially. What did he do for a living? Does anyone know. When he gave up treasure hunting with his magic rock he gave up an income stream. The magic rock did prove to be a pretty valuable asset however as it allowed him to get started in the religion business which, I think, became pretty lucrative.
Did Joseph Smith make his living off of religion while condemning Christian ministers who were supported (financially) by their congregations? I’m really curious about this. Smith had to make a living some way. I’d like to know what that was.
I’m also curious about another thing that maybe those who are former Mormons can answer. Does multi-level marketing play apart in the the LDS culture? Are LDS members encouraged by others within the sect to get “involved” in these businesses. Are bishops involved in multi-level marketing and do they recruit their members for their businesses.
There are a lot of different ways to profit from one’s position of authority. Anyone know anything about this?
Oh, here’s a three minute video that I found interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DaM8DLi9Y0
Well maybe I answered my own question. Notice the picture of the Mormon tabernacle in SLC on this sight. Frankly I thought it was a joke. Maybe it is!
http://blog.robfore.com/sharing-stage-mlm-leaders/
Here’s an opinion. Not ever having been a Mormon, I don’t think like a Mormon. But when we see the compensation package offered (in the article) it makes you wonder if this doesn’t have some validity when it comes to Mormons and multi-level marketing.
The author answering the question about Mormons and MLM says:
“The answer is so simple that I am surprised the “Mormons are stupid/gullible” theory has held sway for so long.”
“The real answer is, I believe, because the Mormon church, in relative terms, keeps its membership ‘dirt poor.’”
Talking about those in MLM he says:
“Do they make any money? The answer varies from not much to zero. So not only do they not get out from the Mormon Church poverty trap they end up even more miserable and depressed. And then what happens? More Prozac, anyone?”
http://notamormon.blogspot.com/2010/03/mlms-and-mormons.html
His point in the article is that Mormons are “encouraged” to give like crazy to the LDS Inc. coffers. They can’t get a second job because they’re tied up in LDS church activities. So MLM gives them a chance to just hit up other Mormons when at these functions.
I guess what a person, a smart one at least, needs to do in the LDS church is get into the higher level of leadership where you can get paid $100,000 a year and claim you’re not getting paid. Great scam and you can feel holy and special at the same time.
Ironman1995
“Monson was 32 when called as a General Authority, so how did he manage to retire from the private sector at such a young age , sounds like he has been supported by the church for 40 plus yrs”
Not only supported but I would bet he’s a multi millionaire. I wonder if he lives tax free too?
Kate, Ironman , Monson after being “called” to be an apostle at age 36 in the decades that
followed he served on the boards of KSL , Mountain Bell; Commercial Security Bank; and
Beneficial Life Insurance co. , according to the Salt Lake Tribune [ 10-18-2008] , I would
think he got paid for this in addition to his salary as an apostle . Either way he should be
viewed as a ” minister of the gospel ” , whose church members have provided his salary
similar to all those corrupt and abominable non Mormon pastors !
Like have shared many times, leaving the Mormon mental emotional prison, is that Andy Durfray in the movie Shawshank Redemption , get busy living , or get busy dying ,its a wonderful peaceful feeling, compared to never being good enough, do enough, know enough, meaning, study your Book of Mormon.
I am free Like Andy, and after 36 yrs, its easy how people can be imprisoned in there minds.
You grow up in the church, that is like being in solitary confinement .
You join the church as a convert , myself 17, in 1975, went on a mission, even on my mission, and before , pressured to get married, get married.
I never had the chance to find myself , or truly love a woman and know here heart, but the Mormon mental emotional system was slowly wrapping its coils around me m sinking its roots in my inner most part of my mind and heart, so any part of me that would question , would be stuck down, and made to FEEL or THINK, I was less of a man or person.
I am not bitter to anyone in the Mormon prison, as a dear friend who was a former inmate and Bishop said ” you dont know what you dont know.
Looking at each meeting house and temple now as a correctional faulty where manuals are used in the mental process to slowy control and move all people of every age to the will of its leaders.
My heart will never follow men or man in any shape of way, I simple follow what came out of ther mouth of Jesus Christ as he spoke them as he lived, not Jospeh Smith, or any other man .
I share all of this with a clear mind and grateful humble heart in my Saviors name,
Amen
Ironman,
As I was reading your testimony, I was wondering what a faithful, true believing Mormon would say? Quite frankly I don’t think they, in their mind set, could even relate to it. There would have to be some explanation that is ready made when encountering someone with your story.
The answer in their minds couldn’t be that the church is not true. You lived it and are able to more readily relate to that form of thinking than I am.
Mike,
I’m wondering how Monson got to be such a boy wonder? It’s interesting how the church takes care of a guy like that financially. Serving on boards is just honorary, right? So a person is basically getting paid for doing nothing. Great way to funnel money into the church.
Here is a great piece on this topic by Steve Benson.
It takes a miracle to leave the church, one’s heart has to be pierced in such a way the wall comes down, the curtain is drawn , all understand ids there clearly , the fog has burned off, clear road ahead, no amount of knowledge shared can or will do it, as that warm fuzzy is always stressed as a main component of ones strong testimony to keep on believing, it takes something very powerful to put that fuzzy out within yourself, when it is out, you are wide awake , each day you are removed from that awaking, is a true gift, not to be taken for granted, you can see, hear why now those you left behind are where they are.
As much as you want to help, because the longer and deeper one gets into there sentence of that mormon mental systematic way of engaining you from every level , you cant talk them out of it, or reason them out of it, you know deep down, you plants seeds praying they grow and reach there heart.
The church is small in numbers and will get smaller, we have to share info in a way that will touch there hearts, if not, it will only bounce off there wall that surrounds there prison build over many years , that will take a miracle for them to escape from.
Why do you think there is so much intermarrying between certain families in the church hierarchy? Because that way, the finances stay with the hierarchy. They can use the wealth of the church to benefit family members (the leaderships children get free educations as B.Y.U.) for example. What is inexcusable is the Church’s blatant lying about this. I would be far less concerned if they were transparent about it, but then people would see that there really isn’t any difference between what Christians claim about salaries and Mormons do. Mormons have always claimed that their lack of salaries made them “neutral” when it came to the gospel. But this is just another lie. Here is a quote of one “apostle” and soon to be “prophet” , denigrating Christians for doing the same thing he was doing:
This is the same “prophet”, who when he became the President of the Corporation upon the death of Brigham Young, took $10,000 of tithing money for a mining venture. The lying Charles Penrose assured the “saints”,
Joseph F. Smith lies about how he has to almost go to bed “hungry”:
Smith is blatantly lying here. Many men under his administration were allowed to borrow money interest free, and if they could not pay it back, it was written off. We know that as an “apostle” F. Smith received more than $2500 a month in salary (which went up to over $5000), which in today’s money would be about 62,000+ a year, which was a fortune in those days. Plus the investments that Smith spoke of were backed by church tithing. Smith owned multiple houses to accommodate his more than 5 wives and 100 children, and all of this was paid by church tithing. Quinn writes about F. Smith’s son (who made a living in the church)
The sheer amount of these kinds of testimony in Conference Addresses is disgusting. Here is one Mission President (who was paid a salary) lying to the “Saints”:
We know they were paid. There is incontestable evidence to show this. Yet, these supposed men of God have lied for over 180 years about it.
Joseph F. Smith would then use scare tactics to get the tithing money that he and others lived luxuriously on:
Deplorable. And Smith didn’t understand the New Testament.
Grindael, something tells me that Mormon leaders have created their own definition of what
is a ” paid minister” or what is “salary” etc. Like most secular corporations who have lawyers
carefully crafting important areas of the business , so too have Mormon leaders carefully
crafted this issue of finances to where the rank and file members are led to believe their leaders
are not like christian Pastors and their salaries etc. The Mormon people have become
convinced that to start asking any hard questions about finances and their leaders handling
of such is to invite God’s displeasure and judgement , so better to keep quiet and keep tithing .
Falcon,
This whole issue about Mormon leaders and what they get for “allowances” or “living expenses”
and which is kept from being readily known by their faithful followers is something the Mormon
people should demand answers to . Remember the abuse that some T.V. preachers have been
quilty of in recent years concerning their prosperous lifestyle unknown to their followers?
These sincere followers were at times reminded that to speak against, ” the Lord’s anointed ”
was to invite God’s judgement , so keep that money coming in !
The Mormon people would be better off to dismiss their apostles and embrace a more spiritually
healthy church envirnment .
So I’m wondering, does an article like this and the information provided by posters serve as “persecution” in the minds of Mormons who may stop by here and actually read what’s available?
Ironman gave a very good “before and after” description of what his mind set was when he was in the Mormon church and what it’s like now that he’s been set free.
I think for Mormons who are able to get set-free and then find new life in Christ, it is truly a miracle. Having been burned by LDS Inc would play havoc for anyone and would bump them over into total unbelief.
How can any Mormon trust in this LDS scam once they come to a knowledge of what is presented here. They either have to deny it or come up with a fantastic explanation to prop up their testimony.
More importantly, why would anyone reject God and His Son for a system of works that is nothing but faux religion.
I cant help but notice that there are certain topic’s that Mormons are strangely silent on, and others that are lets say, not as big of a deal, like the WoW for example where they are really vocal.
It’s things like that, that really tell me all I need to know about them.
Rick,
Remember, to a Mormon the LDS church is absolutely, without question “perfect”. PERFECT! Without stain or blemish. It’s the church that holds the keys to a Mormon man becoming a god. Whatever the LDS church does is A-OK because they can’t err. It’s impossible. So if they are doing it, it’s not wrong; whatever “it” is.
It’s the same thing with Joseph Smith. He’s theeeeee prophet. Whatever he did could not have been wrong. The BoM is the most correct book ever written. It cannot be wrong, even if its been changed countless times and if it doesn’t reflect reality as far as history is concerned. It can’t be wrong. The Mormon “sacred” rituals cannot be wrong. Even if these “sacred” rituals are changed.
It’s all perfect and wonderful.
It’s all a distortion of reality, but that’s how it works in the mind of a cultist.
Mike,
The Mormons didn’t create any “explanations” for their paid ministry, they denied they had one until financial disclosure forms appeared for countries where they were unable to hide their activity because of transparency laws. This is not only a problem of Mormonism, it is a huge problem that encompasses all “religious” organizations in the U.S. We are being denied billions in taxes because many churches take advantage of the laws. The IRS is now focusing on Charities and they need to revise their laws on “churches”.
If the Mormon Church (like it says) has a financial arm separate from tithing, that financial arm should pay taxes. But it is all intermingled, and they get away with murder. I do think that this will be hard to change, because the Christians in this country aren’t really going to allow the Government to make changes in the tax code, for so many get huge benefits from the system being set up the way it is now.
As you say, rank and file members will never question their “prophets”, or their motives, and will simply say that the historical evidence of their wrongdoing (like bribing Supreme Court Judges for example) is all lies. Some will believe it, but justify it as the Church trying to protect itself from unjust “persecution”. Two wrongs don’t make a right though, and the Mormon Church lying about their paid ministry for years only shows that it is a man made organization that has nothing to do with God.
We have seen mormons on this very blog do exactly this. Big surprise since they are proving the Bible true as much as they claim it is not. People love darkness more than light.
grindael, thanks for your input . Our hearts have to go out to all those decent people who find
themselves in Mormonism following powerful men who have instituted the rules, laws,
doctrines that they must submit to in order to please God . Thankfully there has been a
steady stream of members who have had enough of this powerful religious hierarchy and
the type submission it has demanded on their lives , and are walking out the door .
If it hasn’t already been said I would just like to point out that the unpaid Bishops are NOT the equivalent of preachers. The people who ultimately teach and preach are the Brethren and they ARE paid. On the flipside, if, in the LDS mind it is ok and not a threat to the Church for the Brethren (who do the preaching and are the source of the teaching lessons) to get paid/reimbursed since they “serve” fullf-time, then LDS should have no problem with Christian teacher/preachers who serve their congregations full-time getting reimbursed.
Also, as everyone may know the revelations of Smith stated Bishops werento be paid/reimbursed. Jesus and Paul and Peter? Also had something to say for this.
Old Man
One thing that people seem to be conveniently forgetting, even though it was quoted in the initial article, is that they are told that if they are required to report it they are to go through the church tax service first.
“Any exceptions should be discussed with the Church Tax Division.”
I don’t know how it all operates in any other country. But I guarantee that the church is not avoiding taxes. If such is required by the UK government than the people would file, but would do so through the tax office of the church.
Additionally, what does UK tax code say concerning citizens of other countries working in the UK, but being paid by foreign companies. Suppose a business sent a man to the UK to set up a branch office. Would he be subject to UK taxes, or US taxes? What of missionaries that live in a foreign nation for a number of years working for a charitable foundation?
I do know that a United States Citizen who is working in a foreign country is subject only to United States income tax, due to their citizenship.
So, have you considered all these possibilities? Would an American Citizen working for a charitable organization in the UK be charged with Tax evasion for not filing taxes in the UK?
Just a thought.
Shem.
The point I was making is not whether tax should be paid but whether payments made as a living allowance should be declared to the Inland Revenue. First let me quote in full from the particular passage to which you refer:
To avoid raising unnecessary tax questions, please follow these guidelines closely:
• Do not share information on funds you receive from the Church with those who help you with financial or tax matters. Any exceptions should be discussed with the Church Tax Division.
• Never represent in any way that you are paid for your service.
• lf you are required to file an income-tax report for other purposes, do not list any funds you receive from the Church, regardless of ·where you serve or where you hold citizenship.
I ask you Shem, not in any spirit of animosity, but as someone concerned with truth, does the above sound in any way like the kind of thing you would expect to hear from organization professing a belief in openness & honesty? What are they hiding?
In this country it is incumbent upon the recipient of any kind of income, be it a living allowance, salary, pension etc to inform the Inland Revenue. The Church goes to great lengths to make it clear that a mission President is a “volunteer” therefore the Church cannot be responsible for paying tax on the volunteers behalf, that is the responsibility of the person receiving the allowance. It would seem to me that the LDS Church is encouraging its “volunteer workforce” to ignore the law.
To sum up, it’s clear from the Mission Presidents handbook that MPs are being advised NOT to declare any allowances or income of any kind & I leave it to others to decide if this can be construed as an attempt at deception. Every non LDS here is well aware that deception is part & parcel of Church policy & always has been, something founded in deception can only continue in deception as has been proved over & over for the last 180 years.
As regards the last question to me, yes, anyone resident in the UK is subject to UK taxes.
Without respect Shem, not just my thoughts but facts.
Sorry Shem typo
With respect
Old Man
I do not see any deception, for the simple fact that this statement makes allowance for the need to declare the allowance. This entire section was quoted in the original article, and as I said, the counsel that “Any exceptions should be discussed with the Church Tax Division” seems to be ignored by everyone on this blog.
I do not know UK tax laws, but if you are right this would be one of those exceptions, and the church merely wants the person to go through them in declaring it.
Now, let me ask one other question. Has any member of the church been arrested for tax evasion based on these guidelines? Do you think that such is likely to happen?
I don’t believe it is, because the church does not engage in illegal activities. If it is required then it will be declared, but will be done so through the assistance and advice of the tax professionals that work for the church.
In other words, until the government declares this to be deceptive and illegal, I do not believe it is.
shem,
The fact is, the LDS church tells these MP’s not to let anyone know they are paid for their services. Not family, friends, tax people, nada. If this were all on the up and up, they wouldn’t care who knows. You want to believe so badly that you can’t reason out anything. It wouldn’t matter if Old Man showed you that your church was breaking the law, you wouldn’t believe it.
“Any exceptions should be discussed with the Church Tax Division.”
I didn’t overlook this at all. In my mind, it’s more deception. The church is telling them to report to the church tax division first instead of reporting to anyone. Why would they tell them to do that? I believe so they can keep control of the money they are paying these MP’s. So the church tax division can tell them to keep their mouths shut. More deception. It’s funny to me that you totally disregard everything in this article but cling to this one sentence. All of it is from your church, not just this one sentence!
I don’t think the issue should just be “is this legal?” it should also be “is this honest?” The secrecy with all of this is appalling. The LDS church demands it’s members to be honest in dealings with their fellow man in order to obtain a temple recommend. Without a temple recommend you don’t enter the Celestial Kingdom. This is serious stuff to a Mormon. How many TBM know that their church has advised their MP’s to withhold information from their accountants, family, friends, tax people, etc.? Maybe the LDS church needs to lose their temple recommend over the dishonesty, that’s what would happen to a dishonest, secret keeping member.
I think everyone has missed this point –
The mission presidents are not EMPLOYED by the church, and as a RESULT of this the funds reimbursed are NOT CONSIDERED INCOME for tax purposes.
This negates the UK tax points made by Old Man, as those are only discussing employees from my understanding – directors of charities are usually employed but any volunteers at the same charity that are reimbursed for expenses only occurring from their work do not need to report it for tax purposes. At least that is my experience here in Australia.
Its like if a friend volunteers to fix your car if you reimburse them for any parts they buy and the petrol they may spend travelling too and from shops. This is not reportable income for tax. If you paid them more for their time then that starts to cross the grey area, and if they did the work in their mechanics shop and you paid them a little extra for time then that should be reported as income as it is in a work environment.
Bottom line is the mission presidents are not employed by the church and are only reimbursed for their expenses not time so according to the tax system, which the church’s legal side most likely has gone through thoroughly, is not reportable income.
Ralph
I tried to point that out earlier, but you have done a much better job. Thanks.
Kate
They are not advised to not tell anyone. They are advised not to represent it as a salary or other employment income, because it isn’t.
Ralph
I note your comment:
Because you are engaged in volunteer religious service, no employer-employee relationship exists between you and the Church. As a result, any funds reimbursed to you from the Church are not considered income for tax purposes.
I have no wish to engage in a long debate over legal matters, I don’t believe that this is the place for such things so I’ll make this my final posting on the subject, at least as regards the secular side of it. I thought it might be helpful if we can reach an understanding of what exactly defines a volunteer so to that end I’ve provided the following information taken directly from the HM Revenue & Customs site.
Part 1: Volunteers’ rights
Most volunteers don’t have a contract of employment so don’t have the rights of an employee or worker.
They are usually given a volunteer agreement that explains:
· The level of supervision and support they’ll get
· What training they’ll get
· Whether they’re covered under the organisation’s employer or public liability insurance
· Health and safety issues
· Any expenses the organisation will cover
Part 2: Pay and expenses
Volunteers aren’t paid for their time but may get money to cover expenses. This is usually limited to covering food, drink and travel or any equipment they need to buy.
If a volunteer gets any other payment, reward or benefit in kind, they may be classed as an employee or worker, rather than a volunteer. This includes any promise of a contract or paid work in the future.
Being classed as an employee or worker gives them certain employment rights, like getting the minimum wage
Example 1
Ellie volunteers at a company to get some work experience. She’s given travel expenses even though she walks to work. This is payment, rather than out-of-pocket expenses, so she must be paid at least the minimum wage.
Example 2
Joe is an unpaid intern at a record company, but he’s given free CDs as a perk. The CDs are ‘benefits in kind’. They mean he must be paid at least the minimum wage.
Example 3
Amanda is an unpaid intern at a design company. She’s been promised that she’ll be taken on as an employee after 3 months. This counts as a reward, so she must be paid at least the minimum wage for the whole time she spends at the company.
Now let’s take a look at what appendix B of the Mission Presidents handbook has to say on the subject. Please bear in mind that the Churches’ definition of “Volunteer” is irrelevant in the context of this discussion
Monthly reimbursement of Living Expenses
While you are serving as mission president, the Church reimburses the necessary living expenses for you, your wife, and your dependent children. Dependent children are defined as those ·who are under age 26, have not been married, and are not employed full-time. Living expenses include food, clothing, household supplies, family activities, dry cleaning, personal long-distance calls to family, and modest gifts (for example, Christmas, birthdays, or anniversary).
In addition, the following are provided or reimbursed:
• Medical expenses-including dental and eye care, but not orthodontics or elective or cosmetic surgery-if not covered by personal health insurance. In unusual situations when orthodontic care is needed, consult with the Missionary Department (801-240-3070). If you have dependent children living away from home in the United States who need medical treatment, you should consult Missionary Medical in advance (800-777-1647 or 801-578-
5650). Missionary Medical can assist in arranging treatment and monitoring the situation.
• Support for children serving full-time missions, when requested.
• One round trip for each unmarried child under age 26 to visit you in the mission if he or she did not accompany you to the field.
• Elementary and secondary school expenses for tuition, fees, books, and materials. Reasonable expense for extracurricular activities and for music or dance lessons may be reimbursed.
• Undergraduate tuition at an accredited college or university that offers two- or four-year degrees. Tuition is waived at Church-owned schools. Tuition at other schools is reimbursed after the classes have been successfully completed. The tuition reimbursement will not exceed the equivalent of current tuition at Brigham Young University, regardless of the actual tuition cost. Students must meet the same standards for enrollment as others; the Missionary Department does not facilitate acceptance into Church owned schools.
The first paragraph lists items that are classed as living allowances although I very much doubt if “Family activities, personal long distance calls to family & modest gifts” would be included in that category by the taxman. I’m sure it won’t have escaped your notice that the second paragraph is entitled “in addition the following are provided or reimbursed”. Presumably that means in addition to living expenses. It’s obvious from the fact they have been listed separately that the Church doesn’t believe they are living expenses & therefore do not include them as such.
I concede that the law may be different in Australia but if the guidelines as laid out in the Churches’ own publication are followed then under UK law a Mission President qualifies as an employee. Therefore all income has to be declared & the above additions to basic living expenses are probably taxable.
As a final footnote not directly related to the above: Church members have often told me that as the church is a charity it is exempt from UK tax, this is not true & I again quote from HM Revenue & Customs: If your charity has business activities the VAT rules will apply to you just as they do for any other business. You may, however, qualify for certain VAT reliefs and exemptions. The LDS Church most certainly is a very active & lucrative business organization.
One final point: As Kate has so rightly pointed out, this “debate” goes far deeper than mere legalities; it is a moral issue, and any non-LDS who has taken the time to read through all that has been written here must surely be wondering about the honesty of the Church. I simply cannot understand why an organization that professes to be the only true church, that tells it’s members to be honest in all things, that claims to hide nothing, is so secretive & deceptive about almost everything.
Enough said.
shem,
“The amount of any funds reimbursed to you should be kept strictly confidential and should not be discussed with missionaries, other mission presidents, friends, or family members.” (80)
“Never represent in any way that you are paid for your service.
Volunteer:
A person who performs a service willingly and without pay.
Call it what you will, but these MP’s are PAID for their services. Maybe providing them with a home and transportation would fit your description but the rest of it doesn’t. The church is replacing their salary while they are away from their regular jobs. Do they take a pay cut for the years they are an MP?? Who knows, but the fact is they get money every month and I don’t think MP’s hiring a housekeeper or a gardener qualify as volunteer service LOL!
You should check out LDS blogs on this subject. I did that the other day and your fellow LDS are just as appalled about all of this as the rest of us.
There’s nothing more I can say to you. You are blind. For once I would like to engage in an honest dialog with a TBM where he/she can actually read what is written and not try to twist and spin it to mean something else. I don’t think that will ever happen. Your church is dishonest and you can’t defend it. Sorry.
True that. But the fact is, is that Mission Presidents are employed by the Church. They do a job, and receive compensation for doing it. The Mormons have just used the legal code to their advantage, and to help perpetuate a lie that they are not paid. Granted, they are not the only one’s doing it. But they lie about it, and then denigrate others who do the same thing, and many in the Church (chosen by the Hierarchy) have been benefited greatly by this compensation and distribution of funds that belong to the whole church, that is supposed to be run by common consent.(Therefore they should vote on every expenditure and all should be open and transparent – like it USED TO BE.) That is the whole crux of the argument here. They church is full of hypocrisy. This is also about the letter and spirit of the law, and Mormons have never been able to understand the spirit of the law. That is why they do works to get to heaven, and why their leaders can’t even get them to live the commandments that they have revealed, like the law of consecration. The fact is, this failed because the leaders never lived it. Brigham Young and Jo Smith lived off the church and in relative luxury, (Brigham Young with much more time to take advantage of the system – much more so than Smith.) The efficacy of the tax code in relation to this is a waste of time, this is about hypocrisy, and lying, the core problems of Mormonism.
Kate,
Compensated for their services is a better way of putting it. Mormons love to play word games. But it means the same thing, but not in relation to the tax code. That is why this argument can’t be about the tax code, but rather the lying of the the Mormon Hierarchy about a paid ministry, and how they favor some with pay, but not others, and still say that the church has NEVER had a paid/compensated ministry. They believe because it’s legal, it’s ok to do what they do, so they have done nothing wrong. The ends justify the means. The dishonesty here is palpable.
What this really boils down to is this: You think this is dishonest, and anyone claiming otherwise has to be blinding themselves, or simply ignoring the facts. That is just fine, but that is your opinion, and it is not sufficient to prove dishonesty in anything.
Grindael, I don’t think anyone in the church ever claimed that no one was ever compensated for expenses that occure during service. They have said that there is no employer-employee relationship, and that is perfectly true.
I think most people don’t quiet get the whole concept of an unpaid ministry. This is not only speaking of actually paying a salary, but to the entire profession of preaching. Most churches require a certain amount of professional training before they will allow you to preach. The preacher chooses the ministry as his profession. He receives a yearly Salary as a professional in the field.
In the LDS church there is no required formal training to be called to serve. Each member is expected to pursue a separate vocation, while at the same time making themselves available to serve in the church. Some receive a compensation for expenses, but this is not the same as a yearly Salary.
To most of the Christian World the minister is a trained professional who is paid according to his time and education. To the LDS the minister is a man called directly of God, regardless of training or education.
Oh, and just a note on the difference between compensation and salary; a salary is a fixed amount that is paid to the person at regular intervals. Compensation is paid after expenses have accrued and only to the amount spent, and is thus unfixed in the amount.
Thus a person earning a salary of 60,000 dollars would receive 5000 dollars every month. However, a person receiving compensation would receive only enough to cover the expenses that occurred in the month, whether that totaled 500 or 10,000. Now, there is usually a limit to how much a person can be compensated, which is not very high in the church. It is also not unusual for compensation to require the use of certain companies or brands. I know of a mission president who had to buy his car himself because the one he wanted was too expensive and not allowed under the guidelines of compensation.
Things are not underhanded, and some try to claim. They are simply regulated in a strict manner, and people interpret this as deception.