A little over a week ago (on April 6, 2013) Christopher Ralph at the Journey of Loyal Dissent blog posted a controversial memorandum written by author and historian Grant H. Palmer. The memo recounts details from Mr. Palmer’s “Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012-2013.” The information Mr. Palmer relates could be powerfully damaging to Mormonism. It’s so shocking that it has many people asking, “Is it true?”
I have no reason to doubt Mr. Palmer; he has shown himself to be a man of truth and integrity. But I don’t know the character of either the Seventy or the returned Mission President who have been meeting with Mr. Palmer. Are they on the level?
Let’s assume for the time being that everything Mr. Palmer was told is true. In a nutshell, then, that means
- When a man is called as a Mormon Apostle the Church gives him $1,000,000 to settle any financial concerns so he can fully focus on his new calling
- After serving as an Apostle for two to three years, each man comes to the realization that the Mormon Church is not true
- Not one of the current Mormon Apostles believes that the foundational claims of the Restoration are true
- Mormon Apostles stay in the Church and in their callings because a) they believe people need the Church; b) they have been given $1,000,000; and c) they have been trained to be obedient
- Though it is clearly hypocritical for Mormon leaders to pretend the Church is true when they know it is not, they feel “trapped” in their circumstances
For the Christians here at Mormon Coffee this information may be somewhat surprising; however, it does not change our convictions about Mormonism in any way. But what does this mean for Mormon readers?
If these things told to Grant Palmer are true, Mormon friends, do they affect your convictions about Mormonism? Assuming the truth of these claims for the sake of discussion, does it matter to you that every prophet, seer and revelator in the Mormon Church knows Joseph Smith is a false prophet, the First Vision never happened, and the Book of Mormon is not truly another testament of Jesus Christ?
I had the opportunity to read the accounts of these meetings which were posted on a couple of websites. The comments after the article were very interesting with folks weighing in on the veracity of Grant Palmer’s report. To get verification, a couple of the commentators reported having contacted Mr. Palmer and he verified the facts of the story. One of the people was someone those of us in this ministry know (of) well.
So I think Mormons will “attack” Grant Palmer’s honesty and integrity. I don’t know him personally but have read a lot of his writings and listened to/watched many interviews of him. He appears to me to be a gentle soul and one of integrity.
None-the-less, for the believing Mormon, it will all be a case of putting another thing “on the shelf” and ignored or to raise a vigorous, vicious attack on Grant Palmer. The more fanatical of the bunch will claim he’s a drunk, whore monger, homosexual, liar, thief and a persecutor of Mormonism and their beloved “one true church”.
There is of course no way to prove Grant Palmer’s report unless one of the two men he met with would come forward which I doubt will happen. At the end of the day it can be observed that to rise to this level within the Mormon corporation is quite an accomplishment and full of incredible perks. I imagine that an unbeliever in the Mormon program at this level can rationalize the whole thing and conclude that the LDS church does a lot of good so why not kick back and enjoy the adulation of the crowd.
I spoke with Grant Palmer on the phone last year. I didn’t contact him to talk Mormonism, I contacted him to talk Christ. I was hoping he could give some insight in how he could trust Christianity having been duped by Mormonism. He was helpful to me in exploring some of the history and why the Christian claims can be trustworthy. He wasn’t “out to get Mormonism” in our conversation. He was just helping me build my relationship with Christ. Before we got off the phone he mentioned that people are really starting to figure it out. He had also said that he couldn’t say who but a member of the 70 had reached out to him and was upset about the Church not being true. He didn’t go into details about the meetings though, just that man was very upset. I was not surprised when this report came out.
I think Flacon may be correct. I think a great majority will put it on a shelf. Leaving the church would mean leaving an identity. If your heart is centered on that and not knowing God, it doesn’t matter how true or untrue the church is. I know for some people who genuinely believe in the church and have a heart after God, this would be very upsetting. Hopefully in a good way that leads them straight to Jesus.
I’m still hoping for a World Wide Church of God moment for the LDS church. The LDS Church is so much older and deceit so much deeper and it is much more powerful/wealthy than the WWCG was but with God all things are possible. Maybe I should set out to pray for the leaders of the church, that they may have conviction and courage to do what is right here… and the wisdom to do it in such a way that people will come to Jesus instead of forsaking all belief.
I know this will rise to the level perhaps of “stalker Christian” but I think it’s worth mentioning.
To make a long story short, I was in Rexburg, Id. a few years back (which is another whole story) and I found the BYU campus there and the temple. I sat in the parking lot and just prayed up a storm against the spirit of Mormonism contained there in. I also went up to a mountain over-looking that whole area and prayed that God would break the spell that was binding the folks there.
I know we bang away on our keyboards pouring out our apologetic treatise on a daily basis and would hope that it makes a difference. But it’s prayer, as we all know, that will bring people out of Mormonism and into the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jack Hayford and a group from his church would stealthily march around the World Wide Church of God’s property and pray against it. God answered their prayers and that believe system and religion crumbled. There are remnants of it today with people that just can’t give it up.
With Mormonism it may be a case of decaying from within. Individuals and families will simply begin leaving, maybe in a trickle at first but then in a torrent. There are those who will always cling to a belief system despite the evidence. They will see themselves as the remnants of true believing saints. It’s too bad because they are sacrificing a personal relationship with Jesus for a false gospel that will result in their eventually spiritual destruction.
Grant Palmer will have every demon in Happy Valley attacking him so we’ll have to keep him in our thoughts and prayers.
has there ever been a national pray against the false church(s) day? We should start one if there hasn’t been. How cool would that be? Pick a day and just spend a good hour or so praying for God to open the eyes of these people and remove the scales.. I know watching my husbands transformation that prayer was key. At first any discussion of the Church was hostile and he wouldn’t receive anything. The more I prayed for him, the more he did his own research and came to his own conclusions. One day I came home and all of his LDS related stuff was in the garbage. All of his books, his cannon with his name, his art and certificates. No amount of discussion could have brought that on, it was prayer.
This is probably a good place to put in the Thomas Stuart Ferguson quotes:
Thomas Stuart Ferguson founded the New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF), which was financed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to perform archaeological research for Book of Mormon evidences and became part of BYU. After 17 fruitless years Ferguson lost his testimony.
“”I wonder what really goes on in the minds of church leadership who know of the data concerning the Book of Abraham, the new data on the First Vision, etc. I guess we’ll never know. It would tend to devastate the church if a top leader were to announce the facts”
“…you can’t set Book of Mormon geography down anywhere — because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archaeology. I should say — what is in the ground will never confirm to what is in the book.”
Thomas Stuart Ferguson – NWAF Founder
Letter dated February 2, 1976
“I lost faith in Joseph Smith as one having a pipeline to deity… So I give Joseph Smith credit as an innovator and as a smart fellow… I think that Joseph Smith may have had View of the Hebrews from which to work… Oliver Cowdery was in Ethan Smith’s [author of View of the Hebrews] congregation before he went from Vermont to New York to join Joseph Smith.”
Thomas Stuart Ferguson – NWAF Founder
Letter dated December 3, 1979
“Mormonism is probably the best conceived myth-fraternity to which one can belong… Perhaps you and I have been spoofed by Joseph Smith… The day will probably come–but it is far off–when the leadership of the Church will change the excommunication rules and delete as grounds non-belief in the 2 books mentioned and in Joseph Smith as a prophetic etc… but if you wait for that day, you probably will have died. It is a long way off…”
Thomas Stuart Ferguson – NWAF Founder
Letter dated February 9, 1976
Finally
“So why try to be heroic and fight the myths—the Mormon one or any other that does more good than ill? “So you and I have been spoofed by Joseph Smith. Now that we have the inside dope—why not spoof a little back and stay aboard?”
http://www.mrm.org/quest-for-the-gold-plates
http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/thomas-stuart-ferguson.html
I have always thought there probably were several of the top leadership who knew that some
crucial beliefs in their religion were not factual . These men run a powerful empire that
has morphed into something that the Mormon people should protest . The secrecy about
finances (salaries) , what’s hidden in the First Pres. vault , the way they handled the issue
with Blacks , the mess they created with polygamy , their claims that christianity sickened
and died after the death of the last of Jesus’ apostles ( universal apostasy ) are some of the
issues these leaders have failed to give their flock decent answers to .
I agree that prayer is the answer in order to see the leadership come to know Jesus completely
and thus influence multitudes of their flock to follow them out of a religious organization and
to the Savior .
In the last decade, many of the Journals of prominent Mormons have been published and what is in them confirms what Palmer writes. Some Journals that have not yet been published are even worse for Mormonism. When the Cannon family donated the journals of Abraham Cannon and other material to BYU, the removed some very potentially damaging material that we may never know about, one year, 1896 – has never been produced. Cannon speaks of bribing local authorities to look the other way in the case of co-habitation and polygamy violations, bribing the Supreme Court of the United States, speaks of Moses Thatchers famous “prophecy” that it would all be over by 1890, reveals much of the political shenanigans of the top leaders of the church, how they bribed candidates, hired people to interfere in elections and even the way that Cannon was chosen to be an apostle was lied about :
Woodruff ‘s comments in Conference were:
Here we have Woodruff, telling the Church and the new members of the Quorum of the Twelve that the Twelve were asked to select the apostles, and then they all prayed on it and agreed. Woodruff affirmed this in Conference, but never revealed his “reason” why he claimed he and his counselors had nothing to do with the selection. Well, he lied about that. Here is his own Journal entry for October 2, 1889:
Of couse, the reason why Woodruff lied was that he had had a devil of a time getting the Apostles to confirm him as the President of the Church. They were split on it for three years. So what he did in public was to LIE about it, (that he Woodruff had nothing to do with the choosing of the Twelve), so that the Q of the 12 would look more important in public. It was all just a sham. Woodruff actually chose the apostles and they were voted in because he was made President in April of 1889.
This kind of lying went on frequently and probably still does in the Mormon Hierarchy. But now we have a clear picture, thanks to the Journals that have come into the hands of the public… showing how these men lied, like with the polygamous marriages that Cannon participated in after the Manifesto in 1890. These men KNEW they were not “prophets” and “apostles” with any authority from God, it was all made up by Jo Smith and they simply went along with the lie. They have been doing this for years. I can quote many more instances of this, and perhaps will, later in the discussion.
*Forehead slap* You got me! I didn’t realize this was a humor piece until this line: “I have no reason to doubt Mr. Palmer; he has shown himself to be a man of truth and integrity.”
Please then, enlighten us on how Mr. Palmer is not a man of truth and integrity… thanks.
GS said
Typical Mormon who likes to live in darkness and believe lies. They come here and accuse with out evidence and just believe what they want.
Oh, the irony!
Hay, right on schedule. A hardcore TBM makes a drive-by shooter appearance.
Fits the profile perfectly. No time taken to form an acceptable post but favors a hit and run approach.
What did I say in one of my initial posts? Grant Palmer’s integrity would be attacked. That’s the way it works with Mormonism. Anyone who rains on their parade is to be roughed up with innuendo but no specific points are made regarding the actual topic.
Mormonism can’t stand up to scrutiny.
But we’re dealing with folks who can’t think logically when it comes to their religion.
Anyway at least we smoked one out. They don’t seem to stick around very long.
GS said
He’s seems to be calling himself and other LDS with that statement.
Here is the definition for Irony.
The LDS are detached from most of these subjects.
I’ve always wondered if those at the top of the Mormon ladder still believe it or if it’s obvious to them that there’s no way it can be true. Especially the prophet. Does he really think this feel-good stuff he thinks up is from God? Or does he know for a fact that he just has to come up with something “faith promoting” to share twice a year? I tend to think the latter, since nothing groundbreaking has been declared in a really long time (Mormons got all in a frenzy about the girls getting to go on missions earlier, but really? Was it that crazy of a proclamation?).
Brewed, I totally agree. Prayer is what get things moving, that’s for sure. I learned that the hard way. Once I handed my worries about my husband over to God, that’s when things started changing. It’s amazing to watch. Glad your husband found his way out too. 🙂
Falcon, I loved the quote that equated the religion to being a “myth-fraternity”. That’s exactly what it is! And there’s a matching sorority! They each get their own meetings with similar but different objectives and come together for the social parts… FHE, sacrament, etc.
I don’t think it is too far-fetched to think that there are those in LDS leadership who don’t believe in the foundational stories related to the founding of (the church).
“Did Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews furnish structural material for Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon? It has been pointed out in these pages that there are many things in the former book that might well have suggested many major things in the other. Not a few things merely, one or two, or half dozen, but many; and it is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes them so serious a menace to Joseph Smith’s story of the Book of Mormon’s origin.”
B.H. Roberts – Mormon Seventy and LDS church historian
Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.240
Once a Mormon gets by the “BoM story made me feel good” and reality sets in, it’s pretty tough to maintain faith in the entire program. Let’s face it, a person would really have to be taken with the myth in order to dedicate their time, treasure and effort to abiding by all of the religions demands.
One of the problems with Free Masonry is that it’s difficult these days to get men to join the organization. Mormonism, which has many of its features borrowed from this fraternal organization, has a problem retaining members. The LDS church can get a certain number of people to sign up by with-holding information, but it has a significant retention problem.
The problem is for people who have put the effort in to meet the demands of the religion and then they figure out it’s all a hoax. It’s possible to go through the emotional, intellectual phases and hold on for a while, but for these folks the “use by date” usually expires.
For those who are in leadership, unless they come to know Jesus as their personal Savior, it’s easier to go through the motions and keep the perks.
When Joseph Smith met his demise, there was a leadership crisis in Mormonism. I happened to have visited the site last summer where by the Brigham Young leadership was “sustained”.
Could there ever be another crisis in leadership if the crack of doubt infects those at the top?
A summary:
Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel*.
Brigham Young – Mormon prophet
Journal of Discourses 7:164
* Notice Brigham equates seeing the plates with seeing an angel
Within eight years all of the Three Witnesses were excommunicated from the church.
“Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”
Joseph Smith – Mormonism founder
History of the Church 3:232
After Joseph Smith’s death, Oliver Cowdery eventually joined the Methodist church. Martin Harris and David Whitmer followed James J. Strang.
Claiming that Joseph said he would be the successor, some followed Mormon elder James Strang, including three of the twelve apostles, eight of the Book of Mormon witnesses and Joseph’s own mother Lucy Mack Smith. Like Joseph Smith, Strang claimed to have also translated plates. This movement exists today as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
So much for the “restored” gospel and the Mormon leadership succession.
“Assuming the truth of these claims for the sake of discussion, does it matter to you that every prophet, seer and revelator in the Mormon Church knows Joseph Smith is a false prophet, the First Vision never happened, and the Book of Mormon is not truly another testament of Jesus Christ?”
Assuming all these things to be true for the sake of discretion then yes, of course it would affect my belief in the LDS church. I don’t see how someone know that EVERY member of the presiding body of the church could know it’s false and still stay in it.
Of course with that said even when I when I had left the church I found this line of thinking hard to swallow. It would be much more likely that even if the LDS church is false the leadership are sincer but misguided believers in a false religion, much like most Protestants I know view the leadership of the Catholic church. It’s hard to believe that so many people with power to influence policy change wouldn’t use it to either bring the faith more in line with mainstream Christianity or disband the religion through “revelations”.
But that’s just my thoughts on the issue.
<"It’s hard to believe that so many people with power to influence policy change wouldn’t use it to either bring the faith more in line with mainstream Christianity."
That is happening. Mormonism now and Mormonism back then are practically two different faiths. You want to see Mormon roots, look at the Fundamentalists. Their main recruitment is from the LDS Church. That's because LDS members look into Mormon history and find that the Fundamentalists were better at preserving the faith and not giving into outward pressure. The LDS Church is trying to change as much as they can to look as Christian as possible, without all out showing how off the LDS faith is. The changes are being made slowly without much notice from generation from generation. The LDS faith is definitely selling out over time.
Jaxi said,
” The LDS Church is trying to change as much as they can to look as Christian as possible, without all out showing how off the LDS faith is.”
I’ve also heard commenters in the past make claims in favor of the CoC being the true root of Mormonism. But the fact remains that almost all distinctive LDS doctrine from the time of the death of Joseph Smith that separates us from Mainstream Christianity is still in place and doesn’t look to be going anywhere anytime soon, rejection of Creation Ex Nihilo, an embodied Father and a “created” Son being huge ones that would be virtually impossible to separate from LDS theology. The only really big changes that I can think of where polygamy and people of African decent being allowed to participate in the Priesthood once again (you can throw in Adam-God I suppose, but that was a teaching that even Brigham’s own Apostles didn’t agree with, let alone the members). Otherwise what other things have they even changed?
I also think it would not be accurate to group all the LDS apostles into one category. (They are all athiests, they are all deceived, they are all believers, they are all liars..) They are all probably something different.
If you look at early Mormon history many of the apostles and early leaders left because they believed it was false. Many were excommunicated for criticizing or not falling in line. Once Mormonism became this isolated religion in the middle of no where there was much more control. Control over information, behavior, and belief. I think many of the people that were raised in that atmosphere, where sincere believers. I think that as more information came available to people, more of the Church leaders have figured out that the truth claims are false. Now I guess the question is, if there are so many that figure this out, why don’t they come out with it? I think there are many plausible answers to that question. One would be that they have signed nondisclosure agreements, and the LDS Church basically has the power to ruin them, financially and ones reputation. Another is that the LDS Church takes care of them and their families in every way possible. The benefits and security are too much to pass up and they convince themselves that they do a lot of good anyways. Another reason could be that they decide that they don’t believe in God so keeping the benefits, the family heritage, the prestige, and giving people what they want is better than starting a crusade against the LDS faith. Some people are just more loyal to men and organizations and care little about God. Some may know the truth and are secretly trying to Christianize the LDS faith slowly without getting themselves excommunicated for apostacy. Only a couple LDS leaders can’t make a revelation. It has to be decided by everyone. So if there are a few Christian apostles, they are probably outnumbered by men that have an entire incredibly wealthy organization behind them. I believe many of them have convinced themselves that they do a lot of good and that’s what matters. They believe people need the LDS Church and they are providing the service they need.
“Otherwise what other things have they even changed.”
Off the top of my head. Prophets power to recieve and give revelation all on his own without approval for the 12. Blood Atonement. The way temple sealings were done (from making your own family to sealing your actual geneological family). The garments have changed because of outward pressure to keep up with the fashions. Temple ceremonies have had some major changes, which were not supposed to change. These are just a few I could think of real quick. Maybe someone else can make a better list of changes. You can tell by just looking at manuals and old Ensign articles that there is been a much more recent emphasis on Christ. There are things that the LDS faith would talk much more openly about but now mormons avoid or deny them. There have been statements made that the LDS don’t think they will go create worlds. Recenltly an LDS person was trying to convince me that the LDS Church doesn’t think baptism is essential. It was very much believed in the past the Father had relations with Mary. That is discarded today. The unique LDS teachings are getting more and more watered down.
Jaxi,
It’s true that your answer are plausible, but I still think they are less plausible then the vast majority of being sincere in their faith.
In your argument we have to assume the vast majority of Leadership since at least the late 1940s (Utah and Mormons weren’t segregated from the reset of the country and mainstream thought by then, if not earlier) has been a group of men that are eithwe t,o scared to leave because the Church will destroy them,are in it for the money, power or cultural prestige with a vast minority of true followers of Christ.
That would mean in all those decades not one ex-member child or spouse of these Apostles has blown the whistle on these men’s lack of belief, none of these men have felt enough of an inkling of guilt to leave a deathbed confession, and those that are ” true Christians” haven’t realized that leaving the faith would be a much more powerful way of motivating people then worrying within such a broken system. Particularly if there was a decent group of them (say three or more). Also it wouldn’t explain why the ” true Christians” camp couldn’t convince the other apostles to let them embrace salvation truths ( mainstream trinitarianism and rejection of creation ex materia for starters) and really being Mormons to Christ while making money, as opposed to the little and mostly administrative changes you listed that haven’t brought Mormons any closer to mainstream Christianity.
To me a much easier and more plausable theory is that most LDS that would decide it’s all fake would be “weeded out” in the lower leadership positioned ( bishops, Stake and Mission Presidents, etc) and by the time you get to the higher leadership roles you would only be left with true, sincere believers. The reset having either left the Church or at least leaving leadership roles so as not to giving so much time and money knowing it to be a fraud.
But of course we’ll never really know 100% for sure unless God grants us the ability to look into these men’s hearts. Until then we can believe whatever we wish about them I suppose.
There is no “restored” gospel. I think it would be more accurate to say that Mormonism is a religion in process. Only someone totally unfamiliar with Mormon history would even begin to think that what’s going on with the Salt Lake City sect is the final draft.
I am the one that contends that the CoC could make the claim that they are the “original” Mormon gospel. It doesn’t take a whole lot of work to examine what the CoC teaches, the Church of Christ and any of the FLDS varieties to conclude that the Mormon truth depends on which prophet you want to follow.
The idea that Mormonism reflects first century Christianity is a real hoot. We constantly point out that you can’t find Mormonism any where until Joseph Smith started the creative process around 1830. At that he couldn’t keep from changing the recipe of the soup he was cooking.
The CoC lost a lot of members because the more they examined Mormonism the more it became apparent that the religion had way too many holes in it to be viable. I think Aaron calls the CoC Methodists with extra scripture. Even at that they give their members the option of what they want to believe about the BoM.
I’ve posted this before but it would behoove Mormons who are questioning their Salt Lake City sect to compare how the Mormon sect that was headed by Joseph Smith’s son and had his first wife Emma as a member views critical doctrine re. the nature of God. Somebody has the restored gospel wrong. All these groups can’t be right. I think if I were a Mormon I’d stay with the original Christian church and the final revelation as it’s found in the Bible. No extra “scripture” or “revelation” is needed. I’d have to explore further what the CoC means that God is a “community of three persons” but they do say they affirm the Trinity.
God
We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship.
Jesus Christ
We believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, the Word made flesh, the Savior of the world, fully human and fully divine. Through Jesus’ life and ministry, death and resurrection, God reconciles the world and breaks down the walls that divide. Christ is our peace.
For more, see We Proclaim Jesus Christ at http://www.CofChrist.org/OurFaith/christology.asp.
The Holy Spirit
We believe in the Holy Spirit, Giver of Life, holy Wisdom, true God. The Spirit moves through and sustains creation; endows the church for mission; frees the world from sin, injustice, and death; and transforms disciples. Wherever we find love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control, there the Holy Spirit is working.
TJayT,
I think we need to consider the original speculation made by the alleged source if the information in the release:
” He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told.”
Church Broke!
Many of the aged Mormons I have observed give lip service to the doctrine but there is an underlying realization of despair mixed with hope that one of their children or grandchildren will be able to achieve perfection and celestial glory. They will use phrases like “The Churches teaches” “My Bishop said”, “I understand”, “I hope so”. But they seldom express doubts, or lose testimony or lead anyone towards apostasy. “Church Broke!”
TJayT,
“In your argument we have to assume the vast majority of Leadership since at least the late 1940s.”
No, I would not assume that. I would say it has only been over the last couple decades that information has become more available. I think most, if not all, of the men that enter the higher Church offices are true believers. Just as I was a true blue believer. As long as I poored my heart and soul in the LDS Church and stayed away from any information that may not be faith promoting, I would have been a TBM until my dying day. But it is hard to avoid that information now for the high ups. Too many members coming across the info and writing letters. The information is out in a way that it has never been before. I think the risks are too great for those that do find out the truth. As I said before, I spoke with Mr. Palmer, just a week or two after he had spoken with the LDS Mission President and General Authority. I do think the meeting took place based on my conversation with him months before this came out. I do think Mr. Palmer is telling the truth but I don’t know if the people relaying the information were giving factual information. I get the impression that they do fear “coming out.” I do think we are seeing an increase in LDS members leaving from higher callings, like bishops, stake presidents, and CES institute teachers, etc. The mass exits have been a recent trend. I am not surprised that it would take longer to see it in the higher ups, especially with the power and control that is there. This may be just the beginning. Like Mr. Palmer had said to me, I think people are starting to figure it out.
Yep, Mormonism does not even vaguely resemble the apostolic era church. In fact, the modern day LDS church has changed in some pretty significant ways since the death of Joseph, but that pales in comparison to the radical evolution of Mormonism between 1830 and the succession crisis. I disagree about the CofC because when itself splintered, the Remnant Church towed the line of historic RLDS orthodoxy not the CofC. If one wanted to find the Mormon sect out of the dozens existing today that most closely resembles Mormonism during the first few years of its existence they could find it in the Church of Christ—Temple Lot (http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/). But even Mormonism of the early 1830s does not resemble the apostolic era church. Mormonism is a 19th century concoction of Joseph Smith. My confirmation of the truth of this comes from something greater that a sense of serenity after praying about it.
MistakenT,
I’ve sort of been tracking these groups and my understanding is when the RLDS and CoC had their split, about 10% stayed RLDS. Now the other deal is that the CoC in foreign countries don’t even know what the BoM is. So what’s going on within the CoC?
From:
http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/13/q-a-the-community-of-christ-and-latter-day-saints/
“How is the Book of Mormon used and thought of in the CofC?”
“I am asked this question a lot by LDS people. Inevitably, they say, “I have heard that the CofC no longer uses the Book of Mormon.” Yes and no. Some no longer use it as frequently as they did in past decades; a North American congregation may or may not use the Book of Mormon in worship services on any given Sunday. Tens of thousands of CofC members have never used the Book of Mormon, such as members in Haiti or most in Africa. These people joined our community for other reasons (the worth of persons as an ideal, lay ministry, respect for indigenous expressions of the gospel, peace and justice advocacy, or belief in spiritual gifts, etc.) but not for the Book of Mormon. However, the Community of Christ officially recognizes the Book of Mormon as an additional Scriptural witness that supports the Bible’s testimony of Jesus Christ.”
I would say that the whole Mormon movement is in apostasy! In fact it was in apostasy from the day Joseph Smith put his magic rock in his hat to translate some gold plates that didn’t exist. The whole deal is so out in left field that, as I always say, it wouldn’t even be considered a heretical off-shoot of Biblical Christianity.
It’s some weird cult that holds no resemblance to Christianity.
My thoughts on this thread topic is that I feel there are a few of those who serve as apostles
in the Mormon church today who are not sold on some of the church’s important doctrines
and I think it’s very possible that some of these men are secretly practicing polygamy .
It seems that many Mormons are sensing that their leaders have outsourced the teaching
and defending of their doctrines to BYU professors and others , while they (leaders) run the
financial empire they’ve built . This activity has gone on strong now for about 15 years but
it’s losing the appeal and legitimacy it once had . The Mormon people are in a religious
organization that continually stresses the need to live a moral lifestyle that glorifies God , that’s
great , but this is something that is also found in the ministries of Christian Pastors and such ,
therefore there is no need for Mormonism’ modern day apostles . What many Mormons have
discovered in recent years is that the exclusive claims of their apostles to consistently reliable
guides in teaching spiritual truths is not true , that the record of their ” Godly counsel” and their
“gospel truths ” has exhibited an unstable pattern . The obvious has dawned on multitudes
of Mormons in the last several years , and that is , submitting to apostles because they teach
about morals is insufficient to qualify them as the only true officers of Jesus’ church . The way
these men have been reluctant to fully open their historical archives , the refusal to open their
financial records about their “salaries” , the teachings of their colleagues of recent past being
denied downplayed or dodged ( publically) are some of the things that many Mormons have
observed from their leadership. Disillusionment in their leadership is probably the number one
reason why so many Mormons have left or become inactive in the last several years .
May God help the Mormon people to see that they don’t need their apostles in order to have
a complete relationship with Him unto the highest blessings of eternal life . May the Mormon
people exchange their apostles for the ones who taught the true gospel of salvation long ago.
That gospel is still mighty to save today because it’s author is alive and ready to completely
forgive and save anyone who comes to Him in surrender and asks for pardon . Jesus said ,
” Come to me ” , the reason : Heb 7:25 .
Mike,
Why do people, including the leadership, continue to believe in something that is obviously not true?
In some cases it’s lack of interest or consideration that what they believe is not true. If someone is happy with the program, there’s no reason to be curious. The real problem is that the myth is protected by a lot of mis-information and massaged facts. Some of the “facts’ are just plain manufactured.
There’s that saying in Mormonism that troublesome information is “put on the shelf”. Then the shelf gets so heavy that it collapses. I’ve shared the experience of talking personally with a Mormon convert who had just resigned from the church. He had joined a couple years prior and had known absolutely nothing about so many aspects of Mormonism. He was going through all of the typical emotions of someone who feels they had been lied to and misled.
In the case of these LDS leaders, they have way too much to lose. Will a leader leave the LDS church and testify to the folly of the religion. I doubt it. Like I’ve said, the stream of those leaving will turn into a torrent. The leaders are aware of the crisis and as far as I can see they don’t know what to do. There major move has been to allow young women to go on missions earlier. We know that fifty percent of returning MM go inactive within five years. So what are these leaders thinking?
For the sake of discussion, let us suppose that a letter was uncovered, written by a bishop in the fourth century, shortly after the council of Nicaea in 325. In this letter he confesses to a friend that none of the bishops attending that council actually believe in the Christian faith anymore, but have remained in their positions of leadership for whatever reason. This letter is verified and authenticated, and thus we can assume that what this bishop says is true.
Now, based on the assumption that this letter accurately described the feelings and beliefs of all the men of the council, how would this affect the beliefs and faith of the modern day Christian?
Shem,
Man’s beliefs (even a leader’s beliefs) don’t affect what God accomplished. Christ became the new Adam. He redeemed mankind and pulls us out of our fallen state. In LDS theology mans beliefs can affect the work of God. By LDS thought all mankind was lost not long after Christ’s Atonement. It didn’t matter what Christ did, the work was in vain, the gospel was gone because of disbelief, the majority of mankind was again lost, unless the gospel could be restored through another man, a man that was not even God himself. The Christian faith is based on God, He is the foundation. The foundation of Mormonism is the priesthood. If your leaders lose their priesthood, your faith is in big trouble.
Falcon, you asked why do people including leadership continue to believe in something that
is obviously not true?
Short answer ( in my opinion ) : for those rank and file members there is the elaborate church
system that involves practically every aspect of their lives , friends, family, even employment
can be fractured by leaving . When doubts start they can be pacified for a long time because
of being so busy in the system . There’s also the fear factor —fear of inviting God’s displeasure
for giving place in their minds that their leaders are wrong on important doctrine and direction
they give etc. One day there will be a Mormon apostle or even the prophet who will be saved
and walk away from Mormonism . Then we might know what really is said behind close doors
amongst these men , until then we can’t know .
I thank God that we have former Mormons here who can speak to what it’s like to be
a member who struggled with finding out the truth about being misled and rationalize
it to still stay a member . Thank God they finally left . I can’t know what that was like.
Jaxi
You didn’t address anything that I said. Rather you tried to paint a false comparison between our faiths in order to bypass and ignore what I said.
Fist, just to clarify, the foundation of my faith, and the foundation of the LDS church is Christ. He is the chief cornerstone on which all else either stands or falls. Anyone claiming anything else is either lying or ignorant.
However, let us get back to my question. How would your faith be affected if it was proven that all those leaders that you choose to trust so much had no faith themselves, and admitted such? How would your faith be affected if it was known that they believed it all a lie and still sought to spread it over the world?
Please answer the question.
Shem,
I am not sure it would be affected. Are you asking how my worship would change, my beliefs, or whether I would believe in Christianity to begin with? I don’t think my worship would change because it’s mainly reading scripture and singing psalms. The beliefs that are stated in the Nicene Creed are supported by scripture and can also be shown in many of the statements of the early Church Fathers. So I would still believe in the Trinity. I might not use that term but my understanding on the nature of God wouldn’t change. I would still believe in Christianity because like I said, a group of doubters doesn’t change what God did. So I am not really sure what you are looking for. I’m not trying to bypass anything. I just don’t know what you are getting at. Like I said, “Man’s beliefs (even a leader’s beliefs) don’t affect what God accomplished.” I thought that was answering your question.
<"Fist, just to clarify, the foundation of my faith, and the foundation of the LDS church is Christ."
Keep telling yourself that. Leaders doubting their faith affects your faith, not mine. Because if they lose their priesthood keys then everyone is lost once again. Then you will have to find yourself yet another person to save you.
“mainly reading scripture and singing psalms.” and taking the Eucharist. (didn’t mean to leave that out.) Teachings on the Eucharist are also taught by the early Church Fathers.
You know that people that follow what was decided at the Council of Nicea don’t believe that they were given some new revelation? What was decided was already a held belief. They were just trying to put a hedge bush around the faith so that people couldn’t come out of no where with crazy beliefs. People questioning the divinity of Christ, people teaching Christ didn’t have a body, people teaching Heavenly Father is a man.)
You know I didn’t decide I agreed with the Nicene Creed because I was raised with it. I didn’t just read it and trust it. I read the Bible and read many of the works of the early Church Fathers. I decided the the Creed fit what was always being taught scriptural and historically.
I have to agree with shematwater on this one. They are taking the testimony of one man (Palmer) who was never one of the 70 or a prophet or one of the 12…and who is now excommunicated. Then they are deciding by his testimony of this ONE individual in the 70 that all of the rest of the leadership must feel the same way as the church. You cant do that. People fall out of the christian faith all of the time because of fallen leadership losing their faith or falling into sin….does that make the Bible a lie? There is no proof that Jesus rose from the dead…but you still believe…why? Jesus didnt fulfill ALL of the messianic prophesy but you still follow him as the messiah and claim he will complete the fulfillment when he returns..hmm. In fact two other men who claimed to be the messiah akso fulfilled messianic prophesy. What im saying is you cannot form an opinion about a church or a group of people based on a few peoples statements and you cannot claim to know where the intentions and motives of all members hearts are based on a few peoples statements. Spiritual faith in the Heavenly Father and trust in the blood sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ is personal and unique for each person. Where a persons heart resides can only be known by that person and the Father. I know that for me and all of my LDS relations they place their faith and trust in the Father and his Son. They admit that through the Son we gain access to the Father. We strive to live according to the example set by Christ and
our testimony, lds or otherwise, cannot be based on other peoples testimony. Find truth for yourself! A true testimony that is gained from prayer, srudying, and reading the scriptures and lived out in our daily lives cannot bbe taken from us.
Cattyjane,
I believe Mr Palmer resigned. Not excommunicated. He was in trouble with the LDS faith for telling the truth about its history. Wow, lets kick a guy out for actually doing his job as a historian. And I find him more trustworthy than the LDS leadership who tend to lie publicly.
<"They admit that through the Son we gain access to the Father."
This is not accurate. In LDS Christ gets you access to having a body. You get yourself access to the Father by completing ordinances. Only LDS ordinances get an LDS person to the Father.
<"There is no proof that Jesus rose from the dead…but you still believe…why? "
I believe because the scriptures prophsied of Him. I believe because historical people and places can be validated. I believe the records that were preserved by the Early Christian community. I believe because of a personal witness. I could write more on why I believe the Bible to be accurate. But your right that I don't have evidence of all things. I do have to have faith. The Book of Mormon has absolutely no validity outside of some people saying it makes them feel good. I absolutely hate this Mormon argument that is supposedly pro the LDS faith. It's basically saying, "There's no evidence for Christ, you base your faith on feelings and so do I, so you can't prove Im wrong." I really wish that Mormons could see that this argument breeds atheism. Many people leave the LDS Church because they find all the lies. They realize the faith doesn't make sense. They realize you cant base faith off feelings. They KNOW its totally false. But they don't know if they believe in God. So they start looking around and hear Mormons saying stuff like "you are no different then us, you can't even prove Christ." It's a weak argument and detrimental to those struggling with their faith. I only hope and pray the people searching don't buy into that nonsense. There is absolutely NO reason to believe Joseph Smith a prophet. A burning belly is just a silly way to establish proof. People get intense sensations to have affairs too. Just because it feels good doesn't make it right. Christ gave us prophets and the Old Testament to prepare the world for Him. He didnt just send a man making claims. According to Mormonism, everything was lost, so the "true Church" had to be restored through a man that the world was given absolutely no preparation for, preaching a foreign gospel, and we are told to disregard that the Bible teaches us to watch for false prophets because this new gospel makes you feel good. I dont want to be insulting but its just silly. I feel silly for spending so much of my life believing the absurdities.
I took this from http://www.mormonwiki.org/Burning_in_the_bosom to further emphasize my point.
“He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered.” -Proverbs 28:26
Many critics of Mormonism and its relentless method of ensuring allegiance to the organization argue that this is nothing more than the pursuit of the euphoria of a self-induced emotional epiphany (or worse, that it, having shut the self off from objective truth, opens one up to a demon-induced euphoria), and that it distracts from a proper Biblical emphasis on examining the various sources of external testimony that point to the truthworthiness of God, the Bible, the gospel, and other objective reality (Luke 1:1-4; John 14:11; Acts 17:11; 1 Corinthians 15:5-9). The Holy Spirit’s primary method of inwardly confirming and testifying to truth is the illumination of public revelation that God has provided. A Christian would encourage a person to investigate the various things that point to the trustworthiness of Christ, and to pray that the Holy Spirit would illuminate such (Psalm 119:18 “Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law.”), while the Mormon would often be content for a person to simply pray and receive a special euphoria. While Mormons emphasize subjective truth (truth discerned by mere feelings), it is important for Christians to help explain the nature of objective truth (something that often challenges our feelings).
I find this approach disturbing for a number of reasons. First, If one claims to be Christian and follow Jesus that has nothing to do with Jo Smith. If you are a MORMON, it SHOULDN’T. Jo doesn’t add anything to what Jesus is. Comparing a testimony of Jesus to that of Jo Smith (or other Mormon leaders, or the Mormon Church) is another straw man. What does “falling into sin” have to do with losing faith in MORMONISM (not CHRIST) in the case of Grant Palmer? He didn’t “fall into sin”. Some Christians may lose their faith because of the actions of others, but then, their faith was not centered in Christ, but on the leader they found problems with. This is dealt with in the Bible. One can simply withdraw from that church and worship God somewhere else.
With Mormonism the two are inextricably linked together. You find fault with the leadership, you are “in sin”. You find fault with the leadership YOU are the one “out of harmony”. You must accept Jo Smith, the current leaders of the church and all that goes with it, or you are cut off from Mormon “exaltation” and again, you are “in sin”. Therefore a Mormon’s “testimony” is indeed bound up with having “trust” in their leaders. Why else would you have a temple recommend that asks if you “sustain them”? Or if you believe in Jo Smith? There is one mediator and that is Christ. We have direct access to him via the Holy Spirit. And the old atheist arguments about Christ are typical of those who try and defend Mormonism.
A person’s “testimony” may not be affected by others, but it can be affected by their ACTIONS. If these men lie (they have) perjure themselves (they have) give false prophecies (they have) practice racism (they have) claim that God is something he is not, like the pagan God Min (they have), they are not who they say they are, and that WILL affect a TESTIMONY, and rightfully so, because you have done as Jesus directed, “tested” those who claim to be apostles and are not.
As for what Grant Palmer says about Mormon “authorities”, time will tell. The evidence is already there for all to see. (Read the journals and diaries of past “authorities”) which showed that they lied, gave false testimony, bribed Supreme Court judges, and on and on. These men have weekly meetings, they know each other, and a member of the first quorum of the Seventy is in a unique position to observe what they do and say in private. Jo Smith himself should have been excommunicated over polygamy because he broke every church rule to practice it. It wasn’t God’s church then, and it sure isn’t now.
Jaxi
“Keep telling yourself that. Leaders doubting their faith affects your faith, not mine.”
Now you are trying to answer the original question for me, rather than letting me answer it for myself. You have no clue how my faith would be affected, so please stop trying to say you do.
As to your answer, just to clarify; you are saying that if it was known that all the leaders of the church from around 170 AD on believed Christianity a lie this would not affect your faith. You go back to the Nicene Creed, but that was three hundred years after the events of the Bible. We are not quite 200 years from the events of the restoration, and you seem to think this unbelief extends back thirty or forty years, making it start maybe 150 years after the church was organized. Thus to accurately draw the comparison we must time it to about 150 years after Christ started his ministry. So forget the Nicene Creed. I am talking about unbelief in the church father, and possibly even in some of the Apostolic Fathers. How would their unbelief affect you?
“it is important for Christians to help explain the nature of objective truth”
Anyone who thinks that doctrine of the church is as you described does not understand it. I am sorry, but that is simply the truth.
“This is not accurate. In LDS Christ gets you access to having a body. You get yourself access to the Father by completing ordinances. Only LDS ordinances get an LDS person to the Father.”
Again you speak with no understanding. It is the Son that gives us access to the Father. This is the doctrine, and anything that denies this is false (I don’t care who is teaching it).
Catty Jane
Palmer wasn’t excommunicated. He was disfellowshiped, but from what I can tell still retains his membership, and still professes to love the church, at least as late as 2011.
Shem,
<"It is the Son that gives us access to the Father. This is the doctrine, and anything that denies this is false (I don’t care who is teaching it)."
Just because you say it or your Church says it doesn't make it so. It's hypocritical. You can teach that the Son gives you access to the father and then teach only getting certain mandatory ordinances gets you to life with the Father. People can love and serve God their whole life and because they didn't accept the testimony of a man, whose life and teachings scream false prophet, The LDS Christ will turn them away. Not for not accepting Him, but for not accepting some made up mason ceremony.
<"Anyone who thinks that doctrine of the church is as you described does not understand it. I am sorry, but that is simply the truth."
I could say the same thing. it's you who doesn't understand it.
<"you are saying that if it was known that all the leaders of the church from around 170 AD on believed Christianity a lie this would not affect your faith."
well, now you are changing your question. Originally you said,
"none of the bishops attending that council actually believe in the Christian faith anymore"
You were originally only talking about the 4th century not 170 AD. I keep telling you that unbelief from one man doesn't affect anything. Are you trying to ask the question of somehow a letter could be authenticated that said that someone had information that all the Apostolic Fathers didn't believe in what they were doing or teaching? I would be given some full proof reason not to trust what any of the Early Church Fathers said. This question is just so out there but I will entertain it anyway. I guess I would believe in solo scriptura, like many Christians do today. I would probably study some Greek and Hebrew, like my Presbyterian neighbors. I would study the many interpretations of the text, trying to find the meaning in context. I would probably have a faith very similar to some of the Nondenominational churches. Many Christians don't study the early Church Fathers at all. Im really not sure why you think this would change someones faith in Christ and what he did for us.
Jaxi
“Just because you say it or your Church says it doesn’t make it so.”
If the church declares its doctrine than for you to claim anything else as doctrine is the height of arrogance. There is nothing hypocritical in anything that we teach, and only your arrogance would cause you to make such a claim.
The simple fact is that if you reject the organization that God has set up as his kingdom on Earth; and if you reject the testimony of his appointed servants, than you reject Christ. It doesn’t matter what you profess to believe or how righteous your life is. Reject the message and reject the messenger.
Christ has said “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Who do you think these many are who are declaring their faith? They are those who cling to their Christian beliefs but reject the true gospel. When the Lord comes they will cry “Lord, Lord” but they will be rejected by Christ, for they rejected the testimony of his servants. They did not do the will of the Father in being baptized by His authority, or entering into the covenants that He commanded unto men. There will be many in this condition when Christ returns.
However, this changes nothing. It is still Christ that grants us access to the Father. He is our advocate, and is pleading our cause. Whatever reward we receive in Heaven, whether it is the lowest or the highest, it will be because of Christ and what he did, and still does for us.
“I could say the same thing. it’s you who doesn’t understand it.”
You could say this, but you would be wrong.
Now, I did change the question, and i apologize for that. I had forgotten that I had asked about the Nicene Counsel. So, it was my original question that was faulty, and I am sorry.
“Im really not sure why you think this would change someones faith in Christ and what he did for us.”
I never said it would. I just asked a question. It is actually the non-LDS here who have assumed that doubt or unbelief in the LDS leaders of the past few decades would destroy our faith in the restoration. Of course, the truth is that I feel very much the same way about the original question as you do about mine. Why would you think that this, if it was true, would change our faith in Christ or the restoration?
“I would be given some full proof reason not to trust what any of the Early Church Fathers said. This question is just so out there”
It is no more out there than the main question of this blog. We have been given no actual proof, but have been asked to assume the truth of something and then say how it would affect our faith if it was true. It seems that most non-LDS have no trouble assuming this is true, despite the absolute lack of evidence of any kind, and having only one actual witness (even the Bible says you need at least two to prove something). Even you have made the assumption and attempted to assume what out reaction would be.
This is the main point I was trying to make. The question of this blog is a meaningless question because of what it is based on. Just as what I asked is a meaningless question because of what it is based on.
Shem, I understand that you don’t care for the introspective question asked in the OP. Nevertheless, I believe it is a worthwhile question to ask. I first asked myself hard questions about my personal faith when I read a fictional book about an archeological dig in Israel that seemed to have uncovered the bones of Christ. All scientific evidence pointed to the validity of the find, which sent the Christian world into a tailspin — for “if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.” I wrestled with the implications of the premise of the book, even though I knew it was fiction, even though I know Christ has been raised from the dead. I wrestled with it all, wondering, where would I stand on this? Would I dig my heels in and believe no matter what? Or would I value the truth – what actually is – above what I merely hoped to be true? Would I, indeed, even want to know the truth? I found the introspection to be healthy and good for me as I analyzed the foundations of my faith. And I believe such soul-searching is beneficial to everyone, hence the rhetorical question asked in the OP. I’m sorry you didn’t find any personal value in it. I hope others did.
This then, answers the question of Jo’s claimed “first vision”. Since it was only Jo that told us that it happened, there is an “absolute lack of evidence of any kind, and only having one actual witness (even the Bible says you need at least two to prove something)” and so we should reject outright that it ever happened. Jo didn’t have the witnesses to back it up. Thanks again Shem, for bringing this to our attention.
Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible, and through that translation restored many truths of the gospel that had been lost. What he didn’t finish was the work of publication, which is very different.
Smith was COMMANDED to PUBLISH the finished translation:
He didn’t. Your analogy does not hold.
Shem,
Sorry but the “Lord, Lord” scripture you provide is talking about you. I do follow the words of Christ. I do watch for false prophets. I do belong to Christ’s Church. I do accept His messengers. Joseph Smith isn’t one of them and God has given me no reason to assume that he is. It would be foolish of me to believe he was a prophet.
<"“I could say the same thing. it’s you who doesn’t understand it.”
You could say this, but you would be wrong."
Again, I could say the same thing. You can say your Doctrine is based on Christ and that He is the only way to the Father all you want but anyone that understands the workings of Mormon Doctrine can clearly see it is not the case. You claiming it is all about Christ reminds me of the famous Star Wars line, "These are not the droids you're looking for." It's right there for all to see but the LDS leadership waving their hands and saying "It's about Christ," is only believed by the people taken in by the Mormon spell.
<"Why would you think that this, if it was true, would change our faith in Christ or the restoration?"
That is because LDS claim that the "true faith" was taken off the earth because of that very reason. If all the LDS leaders are apostate, your priesthood restoration is in serious trouble. People can have faith but unless that authority is on the earth, there is no Church, by LDS standards. There is a huge difference between how disbelief of leadership affects traditional Chrsitianity and Mormonism. If all the leaders lose their faith in Christianity, it doesnt change the way to salvation. The work of Christ is not compromised. If LDS leaders all lose their faith, everything is compromised. You are back in a state of apostasy. The work of Christ can be compromised, as LDS claim that it once was, and if your leaders disbelieve and lead the LDS Church astray, you are right back in that situation. There is no salvation on the earth for future generations and any further temple work for the dead would be compromised. You would need another man to restore and save the whole situation.
Sharon
Let me clarify my point. When I said the question was meaningless I was speaking to its practical use for discussion. As an introspective evaluation of ones own beliefs and attitudes it is always valuable to consider such things at various crossroads of life. Doing so will inevitably bring the individual out stronger than they were previously.
However, as a point of discussion it becomes meaningless, for the reasons I gave. If you had posted this and brief comments were made on the effect such might have, and the question remained introspective than it would have had some benefit. But once people started using it in attempts to evaluate the LDS faith on what is meant to be an introspective consideration it lost its immediate value.
Jaxi
“I do follow the words of Christ. I do watch for false prophets. I do belong to Christ’s Church.”
You completely miss my point. You, like so many others, are trying to filter our doctrine through yours, and in the process garble it and mash into something unrecognizable to those who know the true doctrine.
Try to understand things from our perspective, and maybe you will come to understand the doctrine.
D&C 52: 15-16 “Wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me IF HE OBEY MINE ORDINANCES.
He that aspeaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek and bedifieth, the same is of God IF HE OBEY MINE ORDINANCES.”
I have never once doubted your spirit or meekness. It is in the ordinances that many people will be found lacking, and thus will be rejected of God. I know you do not believe this, but we do.
“You can say your Doctrine is based on Christ and that He is the only way to the Father all you want but anyone that understands the workings of Mormon Doctrine can clearly see it is not the case.”
And by this you prove you do not understand the doctrine or the workings of God and this church. You do not understand the doctrine, but have a false idea that you continually cling to; and you seem to get hostile towards anyone who would dare contradict what you so adamantly believe about our doctrine.
The simple fact is that no man would ever receive a Celestial glory and exaltation without the work of Christ. He is the advocate with the Father, and the “Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” (John 5: 22). When we are judged and found worthy of exaltation, that will be decided by Christ, by virtue of his sacrifice and his right as the Son of God. If we are brought into the presence of the Father it will be through the will and judgment of Christ, and no other.
All the ordinances and other doctrines that you try to claim contradict this basic fact only serve to re-enforce it; for these are the requirements that Christ has set forth for us to receive his grace, and only he decides who he will give that grace to. It is not through baptism or endowment, or any other ordinance that we are brought to God. It is through the Grace of Christ, as he chooses to bestow it on mankind. He has simply told us what he requires from us before that grace is given. (And please note, that I am talking about grace of salvation, here, not all aspects of the grace of Christ, for there are many.)
“If all the LDS leaders are apostate, your priesthood restoration is in serious trouble.”
My faith in Joseph Smith and the Restoration would still be unshaken by this. He was a prophet, and Christ did in fact restore the true church through him. All that this would case would be a question as to what sect had maintained the true doctrine and priesthood authority.
Shem,
You said, “My faith in Joseph Smith and the Restoration would still be unshaken by this. He was a prophet, and Christ did in fact restore the true church through him. All that this would case would be a question as to what sect had maintained the true doctrine and priesthood authority.”
Sect? Don’t you believe the LDS Church is the one and only sect to have priesthood authority? There would be no sect to turn to. Your faith in the Retoration would be meaningless just as your claim my faith in Christ is meaningless in terms of me obtaining life with God.
You said, “you seem to get hostile towards anyone who would dare contradict what you so adamantly believe about our doctrine.”
How have I been hostile?
You said, “It is in the ordinances that many people will be found lacking, and thus will be rejected of God. I know you do not believe this, but we do.”
Anyone who reads the New Testaments without Mormon goggles on can see that this statement above is completely unChrsitian. Paul clearly teaches against this kind of thinking. The dead that are baptized by proxy by Mormons don’t have to perform an ordinance, they have to accept an action done by someone (not God) on their behalf. Christ already did the action on my behalf. I accept the gift. All an LDS ordinance does is make sure you are accepting who Joseph said was God, a different Christ. I dont accept the LDS Christ. Joseph Smith was a false prophet, he taught a false God. It is all too easy to see that.
The ordinance is what saves Mormons. LDS Christ has no power to save someone outside an ordinance. The LDS priesthood is what rules over the ordinance and that priesthood rules over the LDS Christ. Mormons should worship the priesthood because that is what is all powerful in your religion. Priesthood rules LDS God, not God ruling the priesthood.