In 1999 James E. Faust, member of the Mormon Church’s First Presidency, counseled new mission presidents at the annual Mission Presidents Seminar in June of that year. According to LDS Church News,
“The word gospel means ‘good news’ and missionaries ought to be radiant and upbeat as they reach out to share the gospel, said President James E. Faust…” (6/26/99, 3)
Mr. Faust told the mission presidents “missionaries need to teach absolutes about the gospel.” As Church News reported,
“These absolutes, he explained, are:
“’First, that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior, the Redeemer of all mankind through the Atonement. Second, that Joseph Smith was the Prophet who restored the gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness and completeness. Third, the Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Christ. Fourth, that all the presidents of the Church since Joseph Smith have been successors to the keys of the authority that Joseph Smith restored. Fifth, President Gordon B. Hinckley is the prophet, seer and revelator to the world at this time.’” (12)
It’s difficult to understand exactly what Mr. Faust meant by the phrase “absolutes about the gospel.” Perhaps something got lost or jumbled when the journalist reported Mr. Faust’s address. Be that as it may, as we have it, the absolutes Mr. Faust lists are at least the basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news that Mormon missionaries are to teach with radiance. I summarize them here in a numbered list:
1. Jesus Christ (Redeemer)
2. Joseph Smith (Restorer)
3. Book of Mormon (Testifier)
4. Prophet-Successors (Proprietors)
5. Current Mormon Prophet (Seer and Revelator)
I’m struck by the content of what this modern Mormon apostle considered foundational truths concerning the gospel. After the honorable mention of Jesus Christ, the other four points focus on the Mormon Church, and almost exclusively on the men who lead the Mormon Church. I guess Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie hit the nail on the head when he wrote, “The true gospel of Jesus Christ…is found only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 334), for four of the five gospel absolutes listed by Mr. Faust are indeed found “only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (although numbers 2 and 3 might also be found in other denominations of Mormonism in various forms).
Biblical apostles had a different focus when it came to the gospel. Consider what the apostle John presented as absolutes in John 3:16 (summarized here in a numbered list):
1. God (so loved the world that He gave)
2. Jesus (God’s only Son, that whosoever believes in)
3. Jesus (shall not perish but have eternal life with)
4. God
Or the absolute truths of the gospel that the apostle Paul told Titus to “insist on” (Titus 3:4-7):
1. God (our Savior appeared and)
2. Jesus (saved us according to the mercy of)
3. Christ (by the regeneration and renewal of the)
4. Holy Spirit (poured out on us richly through)
5. Jesus Christ (our Savior so that being justified by)
6. Jesus (by His grace, we have the hope of eternal life with)
7. God
For the biblical apostles, the beginning, the end, and everything in between, was focused on, centered in, and fulfilled by God. The Good News isn’t about prophets. It isn’t about books. It isn’t about church leaders. It is, start to finish, as the biblical writer Luke noted, “the good news about Jesus” (Acts 8:35). Assuredly – absolutely — it’s really all about Him.
Great way to show the contrast in the Biblical gospel with that of a latter days imitation
which starts out seemingly authentic but after unwrapping the same terms and the way it’s
packaged for the public , it’s seen to be a very good counterfeit of the original gospel
that Jesus’ true apostles taught after they were sent out by Him to preach —Rom 1:16 .
The Bible warns that especially in the latter days there will come men , many well meaning
individuals , who feel they have been appointed by God to be His exclusive mouthpiece to
mankind . The most successful of these prophets seem to be the ones who claim some kind
of direct connection to those men mentioned in the Bible. Receiving visitations from men
of Biblical times or even from Jesus Himself to bolster their claim of being appointed to be
the messenger for these last days , a “living ” prophet/apostle as opposed to the ” dead ”
apostles of Jesus’ church in the New Testament . Thus it is not uncommon for a latter days
prophet to make the claim that their organization /church is the exact same one that Jesus
established through His apostles with the very same gospel of salvation that the apostles , like
Paul , preached in his travels —- this has all been re established again by God because evil men
had changed /altered the fundamental truths of true gospel . Thus a universal /complete
apostasy of Jesus’ church and from the gospel His apostles preached became nowhere to be
found on earth until this was restored by a modern day prophet —-in this case a Mormon
prophet . Once the right questions are asked and the documentation is examined beyond
what the Mormon Missionaries share the picture gets clearer about their ” restored ” gospel .
It’s very successful imitation because whatever the living prophet feels is new insight about
God , “additional” gospel truths of the restoration , then this teaching is wrapped up in a
large volume to preaching about good deeds , and since it is right to live a righteous lifestyle
then why not accept the new doctrine about God right along with all the preaching about
living morally ? This is a successful recipe that sells well on sincere people .
This is the Mormon recipe
Jesus fore warned this would happen in the latter days —Mark 13:22-23 ; Gal 1:8 .
Good people can get detoured by prophets who are not sent by Jesus . That’s why Jesus
said , Beware
I’ve been thinking since reading this post earlier this morning whether or not Christianity would stand without the Bible. The value of the Bible is that it instructs us what God’s word is, but it in itself is not God’s word. But, even if it would fall if the Bible did not exist, Christianity exists through Christ, God Incarnate. I cannot find anything else on which it might stand or fall.
Mormonism cannot say that. Without the Book of Mormon it fails. Without the Presidency it fails. Without Smith it fails. As the article points out, Mormonism is dependent on far more that Jesus Christ such that if you eliminate any one of those, and more, aspects, the entire house falls.
MJP said
I dont understand what you said, can you please expound?
I tell people that the Bible does not contain Gods word, But the BIBLE IS GODS WORD.
It is true, at the end of the day, for Mormons it is their church that is sovereign.
After all that’s how their god and all the other gods became gods (follow that?). It’s the religious system that makes people into gods. That’s why Mormons go apoplectic when someone “leaves the church”.
Jesus is just a clog in the Mormon system. He’s a valiant older spirit brother who got the plum assignment from the council of the Mormon gods.
What Mormons don’t recognize is that Jesus is God incarnate. He’s not “a god”; one of millions perhaps billions of gods in the universe that became gods through the Mormon system.
A believer is someone who recognizes their need for a Savior. That is, they see that they are sinners without hope but through faith in Jesus they obtain access to the Father.
The blog initially states –“It’s difficult to understand exactly what Mr. Faust meant by the phrase “absolutes about the gospel.””
Then it goes on to ASSUME – “the absolutes Mr. Faust lists are at least the basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news that Mormon missionaries are to teach with radiance”
We teach that the first principles and ordinances of the GOSPEL are, first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
Is this saying something different to the assumption above?
Let’s look at it so we don’t assume and we can understand.
As mentioned by both Elder Faust and the article of faith – our first and foremost part of the Gospel is Jesus Christ; faith in Him and His atonement and through His atonement His ability to allow us back into the presence of Heavenly Father. That in a nutshell, as pointed out in the blog, is the Gospel and we LDS agree with that summary.
Then this is where the rest of Elder Faust’s message comes in – where do we find this Gospel? Through the prophets Heavenly Father has sent to us. And where are these prophets? They are found in the Church Jesus restored to the earth through Joseph Smith, the subsequent prophets after him, and in the scriptures – and for the LDS church we do focus on the BoM because it is what sets us apart, but the Bible should also be included. This is not saying that this is part of “the basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news” as assumed above, but it is where we can find these.
Is this any different to that which is taught in the Bible? NO – The beginning of Mark 1 has it all there – Mark 1:1-2 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
This states that the Gospel is Jesus Christ and it is found in the scriptures (ie the OT in this case) and also in the ‘messenger’ that was sent to prepare the way for Jesus – ie John the Baptist, who was a ‘current prophet’ as he testified of Jesus as The Christ.
So the ‘absolutes of the gospel’ as described by Elder Faust are not the “basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news” as assumed by the blog, only one of them is, the rest are there to provide the proper sources of this doctrine and are just as important to teach so that no one gets lost and is taught or finds false doctrine.
Certainly, Rick. I am happy to expand. First, quick point: I do not mean getting rid of God’s Word– only His written Word (big distinction). But: IS the Bible God’s Word? Or does it only GIVE us God’s Word? I am not sure there is a clear way to distinguish, but let me try: would God’s Word be preserved if it were not written down?
I’d like to think that God is powerful enough such that it could survive the millennia with an unwritten word. Not only is it already written on our hearts, but its all around us in God’s creation. God has told all of us that none– none of us in the entire world– are without excuse because of God’s creation.
Now, obviously the Written Word contains specifics and makes it a whole lot easier to determine what His Word is, and since the Bible, as scripture, is God-breathed. It therefore directly becomes God’s Word.
So it IS God’s Word, it GIVES us God’s Word, but I have to think that God is big enough to preserve His Word without it in written form.
I don’t know if I ultimately have the answer to the question. I’m not smart enough to confidently speak to what would happen without the Bible. The exercise was designed to bring the focus onto Jesus, who all scripture flows through. It is Jesus’ Word. The Bible, while very important, is not what we worship. We worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as revealed in the Bible and not the book itself.
Thus, I can ask questions about the existence of the Christian faith without the Bible, but I cannot ask questions about the Christian faith without Jesus. Without Jesus, there is no Christian faith. This is a truth that cannot be altered. However, we can at least plausibly come up with scenarios where other aspects of the Christian faith are taken away, such as the written Word (remember, I am not arguing that God’s Word is taken away), and Christianity still stands.
Hope that helps. I am not an expert on this topic, and throw it out to consider and not as an ultimate truth. I do believe the Bible is God’s Word– no doubt, and it should be studied diligently and often. The Bible holds power, and in it we find God’s love and His plans for us and for mankind. And since we have it, we would be fools to ignore it, limit it, or to distort it. Since we have it, we are to use it and use it wisely.
I’m alright if you tell me this is a nutty theory…
But Ralph, what happens to your faith when you take away Smith and the prophets?
The blog initially states –“It’s difficult to understand exactly what Mr. Faust meant by the phrase “absolutes about the gospel.”” Then it goes on to ASSUME – “the absolutes Mr. Faust lists are at least the basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news that Mormon missionaries are to teach with radiance” We teach that the first principles and ordinances of the GOSPEL are, first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Is this saying something different to the assumption above?
Ralph,
Are you trying to pull a fast one? You say that Sharon’s article INITIALLY STATES… “It’s difficult to understand exactly what Mr. Faust meant…
And then you say that Sharon goes on to assume “the absolutes Mr. Faust lists…”
Actually the Blog Article INITIALLY quotes Faust. I think the whole of what the DN reported should be quoted:
Then we get down to the remarks that Sharon addresses,
Then Faust goes on to say that success isn’t all about numbers and that he only converted one person on his mission. The DN then reports,
Sharon isn’t “assuming” anything. She list the “absolutes” that Faust gave accurately. He says nothing about the Bible. Nothing at all. Where do we find this Gospel? IN THE BIBLE. That is where the “good news” about Jesus Christ is. Faust promotes the BOM because that promotes Jo Smith. Ralph sets up a false dichotomy of “assumption” so he can then knock it down. Faust is absolutely saying something different than just teaching the 4th “Article of Faith”. He tells them exactly what “absolutes” to teach, and the 4th “article of faith” isn’t one of them. They are, again:
1. Jesus is Christ, Savior & Redeemer through the Atonement.
2. Jo Smith was the “prophet of the restoration” of the Gospel in “fulness [sic] and completeness”
3. The BOM is “another testament” of Christ.
4. All the Presidents of the Church are successors to Jo. (they have the “keys” of “authority”)
5. Gordon Hinckley is the current “prophet, seer & revelator”.
Nothing about the Bible, nothing about the “first principles” of the Gospel, no matter how much you WANT there to be Ralph. If having missionaries in places that were before “inaccessible” is evidence that “the Lord is guiding his work”, then Christianty has way more to brag about then Faust does. Christians have been in those “inaccessible” places long before Mormons ever thought of being there, like in Africa, where Mormons REFUSED TO GO — because they believed the “folklore” of past “prophets” of whom the current “prophets, seers & revelators” have thrown under the bus, and can’t explain why they believed the “folklore” those former “prophets” taught and promulgated for 140 years. Make sure those missionaries follow the forced regulations. Make sure they bear that testimony about the four “absolutes” of the “good news” of Mormonism, that Jesus only gets you a resurrection. And most of all, RETAIN those members by keeping them busy following the rules and regulations of Mormonism.
Ralph,
You are confused. The Bible does not say that there would be “current prophets” that would supplant Jesus and institute forced regulations and a new law of Moses to his church. That is why Paul taught,
And Jesus said,
Try running by those “authorities” in Mormonism today that the “least” in the kingdom of God is greater than any of those “prophets” leading the Corporation, and see how far you get. That is because we no longer need prophets to lead us, we have direct access to God through our great High Priest, Jesus. What are prophets for in the church?
Paul did not say that it was someone who called themselves a prophet (who doesn’t prophesy, but leads a Corporation) but one who ACTUALLY PROPHESIES does so for strengthening, encouraging and comfort. That is what a real prophet does. For more on what REAL prophets will be like, read Revelation 11:1-13.
Jo Smith, on his best day, (Standing by the Fishing River in Missouri with Zion’s Camp) was nothing like what the Bible describes. Jo Smith got cholera and wimped out and then blamed his failure to “redeem Zion” on everyone else but himself.
When has a Mormon “prophet” ever stood up in General Conference and gave a PROPHECY that wasn’t generalized nonsense and that came to pass to prove they were a real prophet? NEVER. And don’t hold your breath waiting either. It won’t happen. Unless perhaps… it’s about stock prices…
Jo tried it in Nauvoo on July 19, 1840. Let’s see how accurate he was…
I leave our readers to decide if Jo was really endowed with the gift of prophecy. I rather think not.
SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church announced tonight that it has contacted all of its missionaries in the Philippines and that all of them are safe, four days after a deadly and destructive super typhoon ravaged the island nation on Friday night, killing thousands.
I am, regardless of how I view the Church and its authorities past and present, glad to hear this.
MJP,
I dont have time to answer your question right now, its almost 23:00 and I have to run off to work, I’ll do it tomorrow night when I am off work.
Grindael,
Reread what I have written. Sharon states “It’s difficult to understand exactly what Mr. Faust meant by the phrase “absolutes about the gospel.”” What she means by this is when Elder Faust uses the phrase ‘absolutes about the gospel’, it is difficult to determine exactly what he means.
But then she goes on to state that what he means is that these absolutes are the “basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news“. Thus if she first states that she doe not understand what he meant, but then ascribes an interpretation of what he meant, then she is making an assumption. That is all I meant by that statement, not that she misread anything. So the whole premise of this blog is an assumption made by Sharon. And your full quote of the article proves my position as there is nothing in the article to show that what Sharon has assumed is correct.
Ralph,
Actually this exercise in what Faust meant or didn’t mean is pretty good stuff. Why is that? Well it’s part-and-parcel of the game Mormons play everyday regarding their prophets, past and present.
That’s why (Mormons) have the task and fun of filling-up their prophets utterances with their own meaning. That’s also why Mormons have to rely heavily on the “folklore” doctrine defense and the “opinion” of the prophet game.
Ralph, as a Mormon, you have to work way too hard to defend Mormonism. Quite frankly, you and the rest of Mormondom are in a losing battle with the eternal destiny of your soul at stake. You’ve placed all your confidence in these Mormon false prophets and their false promises. Worst of all you’ve rejected God and the Lord Jesus Christ, His sacrifice, and the gift of eternal life God is offering you.
Instead you think dressing up in some costume, going to a faux temple and performing rituals lifted from Free Masonry will some how make you into a god.
I would suggest you turn away from this false religion and to the God who alone can provide you with eternal life. A religious system like Mormonism will provide you with some satisfaction as your perform your works but all it’s doing is keeping you away from God.
False gods provide false religious experiences which keep folks such as yourself trapped in your hopeless condition of false redemption. You need to get born again by the Spirit of God; get regenerated in your spirit; then the things of God will become clear to you as the darkness of Mormonism is lifted from your soul.
Ralph,
Please allow me to clarify my comment about Mr. Faust’s phrase being difficult to understand. Mr. Faust said, “missionaries need to teach absolutes about the gospel.” And then went on to explain what those absolutes are. The difficulty I find in Mr. Faust’s statement is his use of the word “about.” The rest of it is very clear.
Mr. Faust is giving specific instruction as to what missionaries need to teach: they need to teach absolutes about the gospel. I don’t think it assumptive to understand that Mr. Faust believes these absolutes are basic and fundamental. That is, in fact, what LDS missionaries are commissioned to teach – milk before meat, correct? “Doctrines” is defined as “a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group,” so I made no assumption there: the missionaries are to teach a set of beliefs held by the Mormon Church. There is no assumption necessary in identifying “gospel” as “good news” for this is how Mr. Faust himself identified it. But the word “about” could be understood several different ways (eg., of; with respect to; touching on; relevant to; connected with; etc.), therefore, I retained that word in my restatement of what Mr. Faust was explaining. Hence, “the absolutes Mr. Faust lists are at least the basic or fundamental doctrines about the good news that Mormon missionaries are to teach with radiance” (please note the qualifier I included: “at least”).
I did, however, make one assumption, and that was that Mr. Faust’s remarks were consistent with Doctrine and Covenants 19:21 and following. Perhaps I went too far.
Ralph,
to listen to how so Mormons use the word ” gospel ” of Jesus Christ , is truly sad because
Mormon leaders have buried the simple presentation of it as being the “good news ” the
Bible presents . It’s the best good news because it is the answer to man’s predictament —- his
separation from God because of sin . Here’s the gospel of Jesus Christ :
– We are separated from the One True God by our sins : Rom 3:23 ; 6:23
– We cannot save ourselves : Rom 3:20 ; Titus 3:5
– Jesus Christ is God’s remedy for our sin problem : John 3:16 ; Rom 5:8
– We must bend our knee and ask God for forgiveness and personally receive Jesus Christ by
faith to have forgiveness of our sins and be given the gift eternal life : Jn 1:12 ; Rom 10:9 ,10
That’s the gospel of Jesus Christ , the good news for mankind . It’s all about God and Jesus ,
with man’s part being to trust ( believe ) in Jesus’ righteousness in their place , before God .
Man will receive the fullness of eternal life in heaven but a daily direct relationship with Jesus
and the Father with ministry from the Holy Spirit as he travels life’s road here on earth starts the
moment he receives Jesus as personal Savior .
This is what men and women in the New Testament experienced after being saved by responding
to the gospel of salvation the apostles preached ( Rom 1:16 ) .
Mormonism has nothing to offer but a imitation gospel . Paul reminded his hearers that not
everyone coming with a ” gospel ” is truly sent by Jesus —Gal 1:8 —-this sound counsel has
never been more needed than in the latter days . Mormonism proves that with all the laws ,
rules , regulations that is their ” restored ” gospel that man must do in climbing up the infamous
Mormon ” gospel ladder ” in attempting to qualify , earn , eternal life in God’s home above .
We’re going to keep reminding the Mormon people that the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about
Him and what He did for each one personally on the cross . It’s what He did , not what man
must do ( aside from from asking God for His gift –Eph 2:8 ) .
So here’s the thing, the FLDS have kept to the original teachings of Mormonism as laid out by the first 4 or 5 prophets. They certainly follow more closely to what Joseph Smith “revealed”. They still keep to the “revelations” of Brigham Young. They have temples and do the Free Masonry thing. They have the original BoM, polygamy, blood atonement, no Blacks, god maker program, etc. So isn’t this the one true church as set up by Joseph Smith? Why would anyone settle for a counterfeit? A church that has gone so far off the rails of what Joseph Smith revealed? There have been so many prophets between all the different sects of Mormonism, which ones are the real ones and which are frauds? I would say that Warren Jeffs is more of a prophet like Joseph Smith than Thomas Monson is. This is why we need to put away these men and look to Jesus alone. Obviously anyone can claim to be a prophet.
Kate,
As someone who spent almost her entire life in the LDS church you understand that the main feature of Mormonism is its ability to reinvent itself as needed and call it “revelation”.
What was the original revelation of the restored gospel? Does anyone know what Smith preached out-of-the-box on day one?
Listen, this guy changed his story of the first vision at least eight times. So now the LDS church has to come up with some explanation saying that he was just filling in details left out in the previous seven attempts. Quite clearly the fish Smith caught kept getting bigger with the retelling of the story.
The Utah Mormons have to ask themselves why there are so many different sects of the religion and why their group is sort of stuck in between. In between what we might ask?
Well they’re some where on the continuum and I’ll let someone more knowledgeable than I am place them in their proper place (on the spectrum). Here’s an attempt:
Community of Christ…………Church of Christ Temple Lot…………..Utah LDS……………………FLDS.
There’s about 70 to 100 of these groups clinging to the restored gospel and they all have their prophets and specific doctrinal features. Just take a look at what they teach regarding the Doctrine of God and you’d find some closer to orthodox Christianity while others may as well be Hindus with Christian vocabulary.
Bottom line is that Joseph Smith was a religious entrepreneur who could spin a story in a way that people would/wanted to believe him. None of the prophets who followed him had the charisma he had. It was a gift or probably more of a pathology.
You know I was thinking that Ralph spent all that time putting together a lengthy post about whether or not what Sharon wrote was accurate when he should really be spending his time investigating whether or not what these prophets teach is the truth.
On the face of it, Mormonism is a farce. A person just needs to hear the basic story and the conclusion is that it doesn’t pass the smell test. So if a person would actually investigate the claims of Mormonism with any rigor at all, the whole story falls apart in less time that it takes the average person to do a good job brushing their teeth.
I’ve never doubted the sincerity of Mormons who embrace Smith’s fantasy. I’ve never questioned their devotion, commitment or even their piety or desire to seek God. What I, and other here question, is their ability to see through the ruse. But it happens when people are taken in emotionally and set aside common sense. Being hooked on something like a false religion is partly the responsibility of those perpetrating the fraud but it’s also the responsibility of the person who buys into it.
Jesus clearly warned that on that Day of Judgement there will be those who will claim all these things that they did in His name and He will say “Depart from me. I never knew you.”
Good intentions are not enough. Sincerity, piety and devotion is not enough.
Knowing who God is and what He has determined is necessary for salvation is the place to start. I will guarantee any Mormon that it has nothing to do with a supposed priesthood, temple rituals, Words of Wisdom, sacred undergarments and turning over 10% of what you own to a religious corporation.
“SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church announced tonight that it has contacted all of its missionaries in the Philippines and that all of them are safe, four days after a deadly and destructive super typhoon ravaged the island nation on Friday night, killing thousands.
I am, regardless of how I view the Church and its authorities past and present, glad to hear this”
Amen. We have members of our family out on missions right now, I’m glad those missionaries in the Philippines are ok.
OK Sharon,
I understand your position and I can agree with it. But still, with your version of your gospel written above you have not put in the prophets that have given it to you – ie the Bible, which Mark 1 tells us about. That is all that Elder Faust is saying with the lat 4 points, that the doctrine comes to us through prophets, both prophets past and present. And that is what Mark 1 is saying.
MJP,
Where would me faith be without JS and the BoM? Well currently my faith is in Jesus. According to that I believe that I have found the true Jesus in the LDS church (ie a religion, not faith in this respect), just as you believe that you have found the true Jesus in your religion. So my faith would still be there, in Jesus. This is similar to those who leave the LDS church – they will tell you that while in the LDS church they had their faith in Jesus, but then they decided/realised that this was the wrong Jesus and they found Him now in their new religion so they still have their faith in Jesus, just differently now. As far as where would my religion be without JS and the BoM, which I think you are asking about – well it could possibly be a corrupted version of the truth, as we LDS teach that mainstream/trinitarian Christianity is, or someone could have found the truth and be teaching it without these things and waiting for the truth to be established properly.
As you were trying to fathom where would Christianity be without the Bible – or in other words your past prophets – the LDS church would be in a similar situation without our past prophets – ie the BoM and JS as well as the Bible.
MikeR,
The main Gospel in the LDS church is Jesus and His atonement. As I quoted earlier from the 4th article of faith – FIRST Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, SECOND Repentance. Without Jesus’ atonement there can be no repentance. And we cannot repent if we do not see ourselves as sinful, unworthy servants. We teach that what we do in this life should be driven by this faith in Jesus and that we show our faith by our works. Ultimately our faith in this life will be judged according to our works, as the Bible teaches. So if you want to say that this is a merit based system then fine, but we cannot work our way to heaven in the LDS system, it is all through faith in Jesus. Without that faith and the drive it gives us we will not be able to enter the CK, no matter how ‘perfectly’ we keep God’s commandments, even if we were totally perfect. And I have said all that before.
Grindael,
As far as ‘current prophets’ are concerned, that is your religion’s interpretation of the Bible. Mine believes that no man can serve 2 masters and that God’s house is an house of order so we have a Prophet on this earth through which God tells us what He wants the whole church to do.
Unlike your system where you have preachers of different denominations that can teach diametrically opposite things and still say that they are in accord with each other just as long as you believe in Jesus. For example (and I know I keep putting this one out there but people do believe this) Martin Luther taught that once one believes in Jesus they can commit hundreds of murders and adulteries a day and still be saved as opposed to those on this site which say that that isn’t what it means and one cannot live that style of life once converted. This saved despite works is being taught and still being debated today in the case of allowing homosexuals living that lifestyle into the church and accepting them as Christian and saved. There are Christians out there that say that the homosexuals that believe in Jesus are true Christians and saved despite their works, but I know some on this site disagree with this notion. So there are at least 2 ‘masters’ in your climate, whether you want to accept it or not. You can just close your eyes and say that those who are homosexual and those who support them are not Christian as they do not have the correct faith – your prerogative, I’m not going to argue it. But some of these churches are accepted by you as Christian – Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian and Congregational Union of Australia.
This is why we LDS teach we need ONE Prophet to be God’s only mouthpiece on this earth today so we only follow one master – Jesus through His Prophet.
Ralph,
From my perspective there is just as much corrupt teachings in the mormon faith as there is in the Christian faith. This is why many that leave the LDS church go agnostic.
The mormon prophets don’t even agree on doctrines so Mormons are in the same dilemma as modern christendom. There are 2 or should I say 16 masters in mormondom as well.
Ralph, you can follow the modern mormon prophet and let him do all your spiritual thinking and see how far that will get you. After all when the prophet speaks the thinking has been done… Even if it’s in circles. And another thing… What doctrinal pronouncements coming over the pulpit today will be considered mere “speculation, opinions, or folklore” 100 hundred years from now?
Look folks, you have to understand Ralph’s mind-set.
A few years back, on this blog, I asked Ralph if he would kill or steal if ordered to by the prophet. What do you think he said?
He said yes, we would.
That ladies and gentleman is just plain scary. To give yourself over to that degree to a man claiming to be a prophet is beyond comprehension.
I continue to pray for Ralph………..and his family.
Well, Ralph, I appreciate your response. You essentially state that you would likelu continue in apostasy if not for Smith’s revelation.
Your response to my comments above about God’s word without the Bible ignore one of the points: I have no reason to believe God’s word would not endure.
I see you putting a lot of emphasis on prophets. I am not sure you understand our position on prophets. In short, we don’t think they are needed. God has given us everything we need in the person of Jesus Christ.
And as to the saved and continuing to sin discussion: we will all sin always. Until we are in heaven with Christ, we will continue to sin and at best we can hope to avoid it even while we are susceptible to it. That is not the question.
The question is whether or not we can lose our salvation. To discuss, in Mormonism, once a person sins, does that person lose his position in heaven just because of the one sin? (This is an honest question.)
Sorry Ralph,
But that is not “my religion’s interpretation” because I don’t have a “religion”. I have Jesus Christ and his Word. That is what the Bible actually says. You, on the other hand, interpret it through the lens of Jo Smith. And your analogy about “two masters” is ridiculous, because “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets”. You obviously don’t read the Bible enough, because it shows that you are misapplying scripture. Paul says,
This is the TRUE ORDER of the Church of God. If there is NO INTERPRETER, the speaker should keep quiet. Who in the Mormon Church is there to tell the “prophet” to keep quiet? No one. He has usurped the authority of the Spirit of God. If one were to object to his words in General Conference, they would be tossed. They would be referred to a lowly “Bishop”. This is exactly backwards of the true Order of God’s House (which is where two or three are gathered in HIS NAME). There is absolutely no precedent in the New Covenant for an organization like Mormonism. It is anathema to what Jesus and his TRUE Apostles taught.
First off, what people believe this? Please give me any Church’s comparable “Articles of Faith” that say so. You can’t. Secondly, you are wrong, Martin Luther taught no such thing. It was hyperbole. Please give me one example of Luther going out and committing murder or adultery, or any other heinous crime. You can’t find any. Also, why did Luther also teach,
Luther taught that unbelief was the greater sin, because you mock God. He was making the point that those (to him) were insignificant, compared the hypocrisy that men embraced. You don’t understand GRACE Ralph. That is why Paul said,
So Paul was a sinner. He said so himself. He also said,
This is Luther’s point. He says,
Why, because, “where sin increased, grace increased all the more”! Luther also said,
Why is Luther saying that the conscience can “restrain all sin”, if he is telling people to “sin boldly”? Because he really is not. You keep bringing this up Ralph, and even though I keep refuting it, you still cling to your false notion that Luther went around telling people that they could murder and commit adultery with impunity. It’s not true and you are being disingenuous every single time you repeat that lie.
Now that we have that out of the way, what difference would that make to me? NONE. Martin Luther was just a follower of Jesus. He was no one special. We are all alike in this. You say,
No, no, no. You, once again have it wrong and you persist believing your own lies. No one can be FORCED to do works. That is what Mormonism teaches. That is what “regulations” are. We, who are Christians, are guided by the Spirit to do the works that the SPIRIT has chosen for us. Your “prophets” are your TASKMASTERS. They are the new LAW OF MOSES that hangs like a millstone around your neck. They suppress the Spirit of God with their rules and regulations. Tell me Ralph, why don’t Mormons live the law of consecration? It is the “celestial law” and those who don’t live a celestial law HERE, cannot go to the Celestial Kingdom. Your own “prophets” have cut you off from it with their ridiculous squirming out of regulations that they tried but could never enforce. My oh my, everyone be EQUAL in the Church? We can’t have that! Every TRUE Christian knows that you cannot sin with impunity, or justify sin by way of GRACE. It’s ridiculous, and you are perpetuating a lie when you say so.
Sin is sin my friend. Should I condemn the sin and love the sinner? Of course. Am I a sinner? Of course, but I do not ABIDE in sin, I abide in Christ. I’m not homosexual, but I have a mortal body, as Paul explained. Should I make laws in a Democratic Society to legislate morality when clearly the Constitution says that we cannot infringe on personal rights? We only legislate what we call morality when people do things that harm another person’s life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as the Constitution dictates. Many of our “founding fathers” were not Christians. If gays want to marry, they will marry, and under the Constitution they are justified in doing so. But America is not the Kingdom of God, even though Christ is King. If one wants to commit adultery, we cannot stop them. We cannot take away their right to do so, we can only preach the Gospel to them. But those are still sins. At one time we did legislate that adultery was a crime punishable by jail or fines. Why has that changed? Because it is unconstitutional. Did our country self destruct as some predicted because that was no longer legislated? No. Come, Lord Jesus.
But some Christians go too far. That is why Jesus said, “render to Caesar”. That is why He did not institute a revolt against Rome. His Kingdom is not of this world.
You know nothing about me Ralph, or what my “prerogative” is. I live by the Spirit, and the Bible says that “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:14). You can be a Christian and be a homosexual. But you would not be living your faith, because the Spirit does not lead men to sin. Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. (Matthew 22:29) That is why Paul said, (who could not stop himself from sinning either):
Did Paul teach that sin was ok? Never. Did Martin Luther? No. But what does Paul say here? He cannot stop sinning. No one can, but we don’t abide in sin, we abide in Jesus, and His Grace saves us from the sins of our mortal bodies. Those who sit in judgment over the Gay Community with hatred in their hearts do so at their own peril. And claiming that homosexualism is not sin, is disingenuous, it like all other sin and those who abide in it, grieve the Holy Spirit and do not truly know Christ:
That is what I would quote to those that want to claim they are Christians in their hearts and continue to be homosexual. Many are called but few are chosen. Only the Father draws those who he will save to Christ and they will never be plucked from His hand. They are those who, like Paul and John, understand sin and Grace and live by the Spirit to the renewing of their minds, and like Martin Luther said, “the conscience that before could not restrain laughing, now restrains all sins.” Is a Christian who commits adultery any different from a Christian who is homosexual? No. They both sin. But the greater sin will be upon those who justify it before God, because they err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God. You try to lay their sins on me, and say that I serve two masters, but I don’t. You don’t understand Christians at all, or how we view doctrinal errors.
I can confidently say that many Christians don’t know the scriptures either. Mormons are not Christians, because they do not believe in the Christian God. They have invented a God to take the place of the real God, that they liken to the Biblical God. Your Christ is not my Christ. Your Christ cannot save you from your sins, he only gives you a resurrection and you must earn the rest. There is no earning what is given by God as a free gift. This is a concept you have never grasped and seems like you never will, because you keep repeating the same faulty notions over and over again in this forum.
You delude yourself. Your ONE Prophet Brigham Young taught that black people were an inferior race that were not worthy of the priesthood and this goes against everything in the Bible. Your ONE prophet Young taught Adam was God. For 130 years ONE prophet after another promulgated the racist Priesthood Ban, blamed it on God (the Jesus that they follow who is not the Jesus of the Bible, obviously) and now can’t even explain why. That was not JESUS leading them, my friend. That was men who were so far off the track that they wouldn’t know Jesus if he was standing right in front of them. You do follow one MASTER – Thomas Monson, who knows nothing about Jesus, because he forces you to obey regulations that grieve the Holy Spirit of God.
And this is someone who will condemn Martin Luther for supposedly telling people to sin, but it’s ok if Mormon “prophets” do it. Now that is exactly the kind of hypocrisy that Luther was getting at.
Ralph,
you said : ” So if you want to say that this is a merit based system the fine , but we cannot work
our way to heaven in the LDS system, it’s all through faith in Jesus.”
I understand this may be your opinion Ralph but it is’nt exactly what I read from Mormon
authorities . First you agreed with me that the Mormon “system” is one of meriting eternal life
through doing works , then you said — ” we cannot work our way to heaven in the LDS system
it’s ALL through faith in Jesus .”
Ralph , it’s not “all” through faith in Jesus that a Mormon gets to heaven because eternal life /
exaltation is earned or merited by complying with all the “gospel” rules , laws as introduced
to LDS by their leaders . You’ll fallen into the trap of thinking that by adding faith ( in God)
to help you do a long list of laws to be the prescribed way to being justified by God thus
allowing Him to grant you eternal life in His home in heaven . This is the reason why so
many Mormons are experiencing fultility at trying to measure up , it’s do , do , do , obey , obey
obey , work , work, work , to EARN eternal life . Thinking that adding faith to do all those
works is’nt the way because God never created that to be the means to be accepted by Him in
in order for Him to give you pardon and the gift of eternal life — that’s not the New Testament
picture . It’s only by Jesus’ works , credited to us , that we an stand before God clean and
allow Him to show mercy , pardon , and grant us a complete salvation( eternal life ) . The true
gospel is about Jesus , not working through a religious system’s rules . It’s by faith alone in Him
it’s not by seeking faith in Him to help you be a mere candidate who has been told by some
latter days apostles to keep all the rules that they have introduced to you so you can merit
eternal life in God’s home in heaven .
Now lest you think that works have no place in the Christian’s life , please don’t be misled .
I’ve listed the 4 points about the true Gospel earlier —that’s how a person is saved .
After becoming pardoned , receiving the gift of eternal life , the Holy Spirit comes into the
heart and now will aid in living for Jesus , doing what pleases Him . This happens AFTER
being saved . Eph 2:8-9 = saved . vr 10 = the christian life after being saved .
Ralph , dismiss your apostles and exchange them for the ones who were truly sent out by
Jesus to preach the good news —His gospel of salvation . These men are in the New
Testament .
May God give the strength to make that transition soon .
Ralph,
Here is your wake up call.
Why the qualifier “may” Ralph? Because,
I have explained this to Shem over and over again, but he doesn’t get it either. Come out of the bubble …
In Mormonism, SALVATION = RESURRECTION. You must DO WORKS to gain the “additional salvation” which is called “exaltation”. This is not a “free gift”. You must obey forced regulations to attain it, which is anathema to the true Gospel of Jesus that teaches we live by the Spirit, not by the Law.
@grindael,
Ralph knows what the lds position is on earned exaltation. He is just trying to sidestep it. Ralph will never accept what the bible truly teaches about grace until his eyes have opened about mormonism and its true past. This is the same for Shem. Once they finally accept that their church has been lying to them and that everything they know about their religion is a big joke, then they will open their hearts to Christ’s message.
Until that happens, you basically are just blowing at the wind. Back when I fought for the church on here, I was proud that my exaltation was “earned” and that my salvation was based on my individual merit. I understood the church doctrine completely, and had NO problem with it whatsoever. That all changed once I discovered TRUE church history. I realized the church had lied to me for almost 40 years with whitewashed myths, misdirection and busy busy work. Now I am reading the bible with a clear mind, and the gospel truly is GOOD NEWS!
You former Mormons know that “earned credit” is the key to keep the Mormon corporation going. The tithe is the mother’s milk of LDS Inc. In addition to that it’s all the free work they squeeze out of the faithful. This is all done to support the system, the LDS church.
May I say it plainly? These Mormons are slaves to the systems and just plain fools for doing it. But they love “the church”. The “church” is true. They go apoplectic when someone leaves “the church”.
It isn’t about Jesus. It’s all about their love affair with the church and the prophet.
Mormons don’t really even need Jesus except for the fact that they believe his death provided them a way to work their way into becoming gods. If they do enough, Jesus isn’t needed. Does that happen? Sure it does. There’s this super secret ceremony that some are called to which declares them having made it.
Ralph,
Sometimes I think you and other LDS dont listen or care what we say, you keep talking about people who you say, they claim to be christian yet live a life that goes against the Bible. Remember as I have said before, Many will stand Before God and say, Lord, Lord. They call Him Lord, yet He (Jesus) will say, I never knew you.
Just because someone feels they know God, does not mean they really do. Now you mention Homosexuals, and mention the issue various denominations. The Bible says these people will not
inherit heaven.
These verses claim the Homosexual will not enter heaven. This list of people that will not inherit heaven, is the same list of people that will enter the lowest heaven according Mormonism. The Bible does not say what Mormonism teaches, and that is, they will enter the lowest heaven.
Also, this is one issue with denominations. Some people reject what the Bible says and want to believe what they want to believe so they start their own church/denomination and teach this life style is ok and Gods cool with it.
Yet in addition to this verse, read Romans and the OT, Where it says, men who sleep with men, or women who sleep with women will be put to death and they are an abomination in Gods eyes.
Also as the Bible says, God created man, and women, not man and Man, or women and women.
And you wont find any place in the Bible where God changes His mind and allows this to be ok.
Plus why is it you mention various Church denominations, yet ignore the issue of LDS denominations?
@falcon
Hahaha. I completely forgot that! But you are correct, in the LDS church, one can go right around Jesus with the Second Anointing. Once you have received this blessing you are then allowed to become your own “Jesus” and select others worthy of the same. Essentially, you become their savior.
Yay Mormonism! Let’s see an apologist explain their way out of that pickle.
johnnyboy,
Do you know the details of this “ritual” where by a Mormon can virtually be declared a god?
Thank you for posting here. Could you give the details of how you “worked” your way out of Mormonism. We get new Mormons reading here all the time and I think your story would be helpful as are those of others who left the LDS church.
@falcon
the second anointing can be found pretty easily online. I knew about it almost 10 years ago. A lot of mormons I have talked to at least have heard about it, but they don’t know what it is.
I have posted a lot about my experiences in leaving the church this past year, but really it boiled down to my wife and I researching church history and finding out how much the church has lied and whitewashed everything. The easiest of all these things was looking at the facsimiles of the book of abraham. Between these things and all the glaring errors in the book of mormon, it became clear that this was phony baloney. Once I started researching all the history of the individuals who founded the early church, you begin to see the pattern of how they fabricated it all or how they were duped. Most of them left for fear of their lives, or at least realizing how scammed they had been. The real interesting thing was seeing how my eyes were opened towards who the leaders were in the past and who they are now! Watching Elder Hollands interview with the BBC was like pulling back the curtain on the wizard of oz. THAT was the REAL Elder Holland! A big buffoon.
I spent years justifying everything I read about the church that caused me to doubt. I did this for over a decade. I was the uchtdorf “doubting my doubts” example. But the truth is hard to doubt when its so obvious. And now that I accept the truth, its not hard to ditch the falsehoods. The bible suddenly becomes a whole new experience without looking through the lens of mormonism.
I think the only hard part has been coming out of mormonism to my parents. That was a shockingly horrible experience. I expected it to go somewhat smoothly, but my parents surprised me with their bitterness and close-mindedness. They were arrogant and condescending. He then bragged about how much he had done for the church and that I’ve never had to sacrifice in my life (despite the fact I gave up two years of my life for the church and paid for my mission myself). He also tried to tell me I knew nothing of the gospel (somehow I must have gotten amnesia after being in it for almost 40 years). My father literally said the words “I know more than you” despite the fact that I had served a mission and have studied every single book he owns or has read (he never knew about the 2nd anointing or any of the other issues of church history! haha). He told my wife of 15 years that we would be divorced if we left the church.
My mom was completely shocked and really said nothing the whole time. This was about 4-5 months ago. So far, their attitudes have changed a bit, but they really don’t know or want to know why we are leaving. They think we just want to “sin”. Which is completely bizarre. My mother tried to forward me uchtdorfs talk and said, “this is inspired for you”. hahaha!
Lucky for me, my wife has been a huge support and a catalyst in our leaving. I probably would have stayed quietly in the church my whole life doubting if my wife hadn’t helped me to get out. Her parents took the news fine. They actually are interested in learning about true church history! They really believe and trust her opinion whereas my parents are the complete opposite.
Johnnyboy,
You mentioned that your research into church history was what opened your eyes. Can I ask what made you willing to look into this history? A specific catalyst or something that made you willing to even begin this research? I ask because my Mormon friends are adamantly against looking into LDS history, and our conversations about it go nowhere because they believe that something is either true or it’s against the LDS church.
johnnyboy,
Your dad’s reaction is so typical of what we hear TBMs have for a canned response:
*bitterness and close-mindedness
*arrogant and condescending
*bragged about how much he had done for the church and that I’ve never had to sacrifice in my life
*tried to tell me I knew nothing of the gospel
*said the words “I know more than you”
* told my wife of 15 years that we would be divorced if we left the church
*think we just want to “sin”
It would be an interesting exercise to analyze each of these statements/attitudes to see how your dad tried to use guilt, accusations, belittling, fear etc.
He should listen to John Dehlin’s presentation regarding why people leave the LDS church and the LDS faithful should respond to those leaving. Now John is sort of in and out and back in again and it makes me wonder how someone in this position is able to manage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs
Thank you for your continued participation here and willingness to share your personal experiences.
I’m not sure if this is on topic but this little gem, which goes a long way towards explaining the impossibility of debating with Mormons, can be found in the LDS church handbook.
“The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical translation is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations.
Printed copies of APPROVED editions of the Bible are available from Church Distribution Services…..”
In other words, no matter how accurate a translation might be, no matter if every word in the Bible is a literal word for word translation from the original Greek or Hebrew, it’s unimportant when compared to the word of a man with his head in a hat.
So, for all those who like to think that the LDS are Bible believing Christians, it’s time to think again.
Old Man,
The Bible is just a corrupted piece of Scripture to Mormons. That’s why the modern day prophets are so important. Here’s this guy sitting in a big chair in a big building in Salt Lake City who talks to the Mormon god. Then he tells the LDS faithful what the Mormon god is revealing. Progression is a really big deal in the LDS religion. Everything is constantly changing including the Mormon god. He gets smarter and wiser all the time so as he progresses, he can share what he’s learned with those who are his spirit children. Then they can apply this knowledge and progress further in becoming gods.
Now this Mormon god has changed course a lot of times. And then there’s the case of all of these different sects of Mormonism with a different revelation. You’d think the Mormon god would be sending the same messages to all of these various modern prophets. But then each sects declares the other sects apostates.
Ralph,
There is something I don’t understand about the LDS faith, It places so much importance on relying on its leadership to correctly understand doctrine and meaning of scripture. For instance you state:
“This is why we LDS teach we need ONE Prophet to be God’s only mouthpiece on this earth today so we only follow one master – Jesus through His Prophet.”
Yet, how does one really know that the LDS prophets are telling the truth, or even correct LDS teachings? There are so many things taught by LDS prophets in the past which are not recognized today. Most recently teachings about Negros and the priesthood are questioned as an opinion. So, how do you really know that ANYTHING being currently taught is actually true?
You bring up the topic of homosexuality. How do you know that the LDS church might in the future issue a revelation OD3 which allows same sex marriage in LDS temples? And they could say that teachings against it where just a result of a culture of generalized homophobia of our era, and that of past eras?
Thats the thing I find really strange, the LDS idea that LDS prophets lead and are inspired, except sometimes they are not.